The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Nepal with B. P. Koirala

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. President Carter`s human rights campaign has brought a stream of foreign exiles and dissidents to his door. Tonight, the story of one man who wants an audience with the President, to stir the fires of democracy in his homeland, the Himalayan kingdom of Nepal. He is B.P. Koirala, once briefly Nepal`s Prime Minister, now sixty-three, an ailing exile under charges of treason.

In the fifties, as a young democratic socialist, he had the ear of world figures like Khrushchev, Chou En-lai and Eisenhower. Today`s leaders seem not so eager to listen. After eighteen months as Prime Minister Mr. Koirala was thrown in jail, when Nepal`s king dissolved parliament in 1960. He stayed in jail eight years, then spent seven years more in exile in India. When he returned to Nepal last year, the new king threw him back in jail, then suddenly, this summer, the king released him and paid for a trip to New York for a crucial throat operation. Mr. Koirala intends to go back to Nepal shortly -- possibly back to jail. He hopes to see Mr. Carter before he goes.

Tonight, a conversation with the man his followers call "the symbol of democracy in Nepal". Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Koirala`s homeland of Nepal is a small country, about the size of the State of Arkansas, snuggled strategically between India to the south, China to the north. Physically, it would be right at home in the pages of National Geographic magazine. Explorers and adventurers come to climb its mountain peaks -Mount Everest and seven other of the world`s highest mountains are in Nepal. Tourists, believers and so-called hippies come to see Nepal`s exotic religious shrines: more than 2,700 Hindu temples and Buddhist pagodas, some decorated with erotic art.

Thirteen million people live in Nepal, and ninety-five percent of them earn their living from the land. The per capita income is $111 a year. Never colonized, Nepal is a society slowly emerging from feudalism. It still sends its famed Gurkha troops to serve in the armies of two countries that have influenced its destiny, Britain and India.

Always adept at playing international politics, Nepal has avoided thus far the fate of Tibet and Sikkim: annexation by China and India, respectively. It has obtained economic assistance from the Soviet Union, China, West Germany, India and the United States. The U.S. has provided some two billion dollars in aid to Nepal since 1951, the beginning of the modern era in Nepal.

Democracy grew slowly in Nepal from 1951, flourishing in 1959 with the first elected parliament, but ending eighteen months later when the king dissolved parliament and imprisoned Mr. Koirala, the Prime Minister.

Three kings have ruled Nepal in the thirty years that B.P. Koirala has been involved in politics. The grandfather of the present king opened the way for democracy; then his son, the father of the current king, extinguished it. Now the question is, what will the present king do? He is King Birendra, who assumed the throne upon the death of his father in 1972. He is the first Nepalese king educated abroad -- in England, Japan and the United States, where he attended Harvard. A Norwegian television reporter asked King Birendra about the prospects for the future:

REPORTER: What about change in the social structure of Nepal?

KING BIRENDRA, Nepal: Change in any social structure is something that even takes time. You cannot do it overnight. You might force it, but it`ll only be on the top level, it`ll be a rather superficial type of change. It will not have its roots at the bottom. And therefore, any social change, if you are going to do it, you have to do this step by step. And it`s a very slow but constant pressure that must be applied, rather than a big change all of a sudden.

MacNEIL: Mr. Koirala, you intend to go back to Nepal shortly. Why, if that means the possibility of further time in jail, why do you want to go back?

B.P. KOIRALA: Firstly, I have to keep faith with the King. You know, I was released basically for medical treatment here, and I am released on parole, which means I have to go back. And I told the King that after the treatment I would return to prison and to face the trial. And then secondly, I have to keep faith with my own people, my comrades, people who are fighting alongside me for the restoration of democratic rights. So these are the two reasons why I shall go back.

MacNEIL: What do you expect to happen to you when you go back?

KOIRALA: You see, this is the King -- when I`m facing serious charges; there are seven charges against me.

MaCNEIL: Charges of treason and trying to overthrow the government by force, and so on.

KOIRALA: Yes, and each charge carries the death penalty; so when I developed this serious trouble of my throat, the King decided to send me to the States for treatment. That, I feel, is an indication, that`s a great gesture on his part. It`s not only on humanitarian grounds that he`s released me temporarily, but I think it`s a political gesture also.

MacNEIL: But if you go back...

KOIRALA: I feel that if I go back perhaps I may not be sent back to prison -- mom; I don`t know.

MacNEIL: And the charges might be dropped, you mean?

KOIRALA: Yes. In any case, there is a wind of change --this is what I`m building on--wind of change in our part of the world. In the first place, when we went back to Nepal last year in December, we knew that there were serious charges against us, but still we thought that what we needed was a national reconciliation rather than a confrontation, and we decided to place yourself at the disposal of the King.

MacNEIL: And he decided to put you in jail.

KOIRALA: Oh, yes, that he decided, but we thought that new developments are likely to take place in our part of the world -- prophetically true, because after India there was a complete change in the political scene, in India and in Pakistan and Ceylon. And so there is a wind of change.

MacNEIL: I see. Can I ask you this: if you go back and the charges against you were dropped and you were free to be politically active, what would you do? One of the charges against you is that when you were in exile in India your followers, with your approval or not, mounted armed attacks against the regime. Would you use violence, if necessary, to overthrow the regime, or...?

KOIRALA: No, as a matter of fact, when we are praying for national reconciliation, my effort, if I am a free man in Nepal, will be to bring about national consciences, because if we have to play an effective role in the new situation that`s developing in South Asia we must first be united. So my appeal would be to the King, and other elements also, for national unity. And I think this is a propitious moment when my appeal will have been effective. Because, you see, this is my -- again I will tell you; how is it? -- this is the spirit of the time, this is what I feel; it is something beyond political constrictions.

President Carter takes a stand on human rights. Then Indira Gandhi, considered to be the invincible leader of India, decides to call an election, which she needn`t have done. So that is the way.

LEHRER: That`s the wind of change you`re talking about.

KOIRALA: Yes.

LEHRER: Do you agree with those who say that the real problems of Nepal are economic? As I pointed out at the top, the average per capita income is $111 a year. How will democracy help the basic economic problems?

KOIRALA: According to our thinking, we cannot develop. Economic development is getting the whole mass of the people involved in their development, it is not setting up one factory here or constructing one patch of food there or producing very good economic plans, getting aid from America. Because when you have started from the bottom -- really from the bottom -- what we need is to get the whole population involved in the economic process. And we need institutions in which there are political interests. What is being done today is, some very competent person draws up a plan of development, and somebody comes to the States, meets Carter and gets money and they attain the planning. So our slogan-is "Democracy for development."

LEHRER: Let me throw a quotation at you, Mr. Koirala, that I gleaned out of many things I read about Nepal today, and this quotes a man who is a close associate of the King in Nepal, and he says, "The people ask us" -- meaning the government -- "for hygienic drinking water, roads, schools and hospitals, not for democracy."

KOIRALA: Who are the people who don`t ask for democracy, I don`t know, because recently -- about eight, ten months ago -- the King thought that this Panchayat system, the kind of political system he has introduced...

MacNEIL: Based on village councils...

LEHRER: Going to regional and then finally a national parliament.

KOIRALA: Yes, it`s a kind of tier system. He had thought that because it has been in operation for the last sixteen years and the people have been denied -- they have not had a voice in opposition to that. So the people have accepted it, so he had thought that he could assess the mood of the people, get their opinion.

So he instituted a Reforms Committee to suggest to him what amendments could be made in the constitution. And he asked the commission to go into the country and get their opinion. And this commission went to districts; when they started gathering opinion -- written, oral evidences -- each one of them (inaudible). They demanded liberalization of the administration, like civil liberty, with freedom of expression, freedom of press, and in some cases they`re running counter to the prevailing governmental...

MacNEIL: The liberties which they tasted briefly in 1959-60, when you were Prime Minister.

KOIRALA: Yes. They want the restoration of all those liberties.

MacNEIL: Can I ask you this: what evidence of support do you have for yourself? You`ve been a political figure of wide renown in Nepal now for a couple of generations. What evidence do you have now -- it was always said that your support was among the young people in Nepal -- how do you know that you still have support there and that time hasn`t passed you by?

KOIRALA: Because only recently, when there used to be four members (unintelligible) elected by the graduates -- graduates who had taken a B.A. degree -- they used to elect four members of our National Panchayat.

LEHRER: National parliament.

KOIRALA: Parliament, right. And that was, I think, the most. widest-based franchise because there were 13,000 voters, and we backed four of them. And the government issued circulars on behalf of four -- our candidates. And then we won all the four (unintelligible. And after they were elected they were sent to prison, rather than...

MacNEIL: So what you`re saying is that in a fair test with the government, you won and they lost.

KOIRALA: Well, wherever there has been any opportunity given to the people to express their mind, they have demanded democratic rights.

LEHRER: Is the King an evil man?

KOIRALA: I don`t think so. I had ninety minutes` interview with him before I was packed off to the States. It`s like this: when I started getting these symptoms of my illness, he sent his royal physician to examine me, and he gave a very alarming report about the state of my health. And the King sent for me, and I had ninety minutes` interview with him. I got the impression that he is a very well-meaning person.

LEHRER: You said earlier that you felt that his decision to release you and send you to the United States and actually finance your trip and your operation was politically motivated as much as on humanitarian grounds. What do you think he`s up to? Why do you think he did it?

KOIRALA: Because first of all, there is wind of change, that is what I said -- there is wind of change. Secondly, Carter`s stand on democracy, on human rights: that has a great impact in our part of the world.

LEHRER: I was just going to say, you say that you have to go back -- you feel you have to go back to honor a commitment to the King, but do you think that maybe the King didn`t expect you to come back, doesn`t want you to come back? That this is another form of pleasant exile3

KOIRALA: No, I don`t think; King wants me to come back, because he told me, "You`ll have to come back to prison and face the trial." I said, "Yes, I will come back and face the trial."

LEHRER: But did you get the feeling that he really did want you to come back, or that he`d just as soon have you out of the way?

KOIRALA: That I can`t say.

LEHRER: What was your gut feeling about it, as you`re sitting here? Do you think, "This man really wants me to come back," or is he just telling you that he`ll put you in prison to keep you from coming back?

KOIRALA: I thought that he wants me to return. Because in that case, I will be at his disposal and an opportunity will be provided for him to...

LEHRER: You could also cause him a lot of problems, couldn`t you, politically?

KOIRALA: Provided he`s not interested in liberalization, but if he`s interested -- which I hope he is, because I`m working on this assumption.

MacNEIL: You say that Mr. Carter`s human rights stand has had a great effect in your part of the world. You have been seeking an audience with Mr. Carter. What are the indications that you`re going to get one with him?

KOIRALA: I don`t know.

MacNEIL: You haven`t had an acceptance yet, or an invitation.

KOIRALA: No. I have not written to him, but I have met some people in the hospital...

MacNEIL: And you`ve let it be known. KOIRALA: Yes.

LEHRER: And some people have written on your behalf, have they not?

KOIRALA: Yes.

MacNEIL: What would you hope to achieve in seeing Mr. Carter?

KOIRALA: That it will be some kind of a moral boost to the people who are struggling for democracy in our country. We will know -the country will know -- that important people are in favor of democracy in our country. It is kind of a Carter voting for democracy in Nepal.

LEHRER: You don`t want him to do anything, you just want him to see you. You think that will be symbolic enough; you don`t care what he does after you see him, right?

KOIRALA: Yes. That`s enough.

LEHRER: I see.

MacNEIL: Do you see your situation analogous with Mr. Bukovsky, for instance, the Russian dissident who...

KOIRALA: No, it`s different.

MacNEIL: That the symbolism of the visit would be important?

KOIRALA: No, that is. slightly different. I represent a political force. There are just individual dissidents. And moreover, we represent the alternative to the present autocratic system. But dissidents in U.S.S.R. are not the alternative. So that is the outer difference.

MacNEIL: Can I ask you, the foreign aid the United States has given to Nepal since 1951 we understand is two billion dollars in total. There are stories from Washington to the effect that the Carter administration has considered doubling the present rate of foreign exchange. If he did that, would that not in effect be ratifying, or expressing approval, of the present regime?

KOIRALA: I think I want to put them in two different compartments. I would like to do that because one is economic aid for the economic development of our country, and that is a political issue. I hope that Carter can take both, a stand for democracy...

MacNEIL: Well, would you prefer him to attach human rights strings to such aid?

KOIRALA: No, I don`t think I should favor that. Because it is not necessary. This is what I`ve been telling people in Washington. It is enough, so far as I am concerned, if America -- U.S.A. - shows its commitment to its own ideal of democracy and the people all over the world know that they really mean when they say that the Carter stand for human rights is not just a public relations thing that he`s doing, or kind of a propaganda against Russia in a cold war context, but means what he says about human rights. That is enough for me.

LEHRER: How bad is the human rights? Beyond the argument of democracy versus a monarchy in terms of a form of government, how bad is the human rights situation in Nepal?

KOIRALA: I think human rights are very vitally linked up with democratic rights -- vitally.

MacNEIL: But to what extent are they denied in Nepal?

LEHRER: Yeah. How bad is it, in other words?

KOIRALA: It used to be very bad, but lately it is not that bad. That is why I say I see a streak of hope when I return. That is why I`m hopeful, when I return, that some new development may take place.

LEHRER: Mr. Koirala, you`ve already had one operation since you have been here; you have to have another one, I understand, in six months. Facing what you face when you go back -- an uncertain situation at best, a really bad situation at the worst -- why don`t you just stay in exile? Why are you so determined to go back?

KOIRALA: First of all, I think I have answered that question.

LEHRER: But I mean in a personal way. You`ve got members of your family who are still in prison, I understand, very close friends who are there.

KOIRALA: My friends are there, and there are warrants of arrest against some members of my family, like my eldest son. He`s in exile in India, can`t go back. And then my youngest son is also facing charges of treason and all that, and my sister-in-law, and one of my nieces is in prison. She went back to Nepal with me and she is in prison. She is the only woman political prisoner in Nepal.

MacNEIL: Wouldn`t a lot of people in your present situation and circumstances understand if you chose not to go back?

KOIRALA: But what will I do if I stay away, except care for

my health? But if I am there, I think the very prisons, the lair of political (unintelligible). If I stay away, then I think my being a prisoner is more my contribution, my share in the struggle for democratic rights.

MacNEIL: Thank you. We have to end it there. Thank you very much for joining us, and we wish you a safe journey. Thanks, Jim. That`s all for tonight. Jim and I will be back tomorrow night when, other news permitting, our story will be: grand juries -- a legal system on trial. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.