The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer; April 13, 2003

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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ADM, the nature of what's to come. And by SBC communications, committed to providing Americans more choices in high-speed Internet access and working to widen opportunities in broadband technology, as providers as people wear SBC communications. This program was made possible by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you. Thank you. The safe return of American Prisoners of War is the top story this 25th day of the war in Iraq. 7 POWs were released by Iraqi troops to American forces in Samara, a town between Baghdad and Tikrit.

Five remembers of the 507th Maintenance Company captured in March when they made a wrong turn in the desert and walked into an ambush, specialist Edgar Hernandez of Mission Texas, specialist Joseph Hudson of Alamo Gordo, New Mexico, private first-class Patrick Miller of Park City, Kansas, specialist Toshana Johnson of Fort Bliss, Texas, and Sergeant James Riley at Pensacane, New Jersey. There were also two U.S. Army helicopter pilots rescued Chief Warrant Officer David Williams of Orlando, Florida, and Chief Warrant Officer Ronald Young of Lithia Springs, Georgia. The POWs are now in Kuwait, an enthusiastic President Bush spoke to reporters when he returned to the White House this afternoon from Camp David. Today's a great day for the families, comrades, loved ones of the 7 missing in action who are free. They're pleased for all those who have been praying for their safety that they are safe.

We still have missing in action in Iraq. We will continue to look for them. We pray that they too will be safe and free one of these days. But it's just a good way to start off the morning to have been notified that seven of our fellow Americans are going to be home here pretty soon. In the arms of their loved ones. A CNN crew was on the scene when the rescued prisoners were flown to an American-based south of Baghdad. Ray Suarez talked with CNN's Bob Franken, who was there with the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. What was your impression of how they looked after three weeks in captivity? I was quite frankly astounded at how healthy they looked. The first five of them were racing off the plane, throwing their fists in the air. One of them had a sling on his shoulder, but he was obviously in good health and certainly good spirits.

The other two, we had heard that there were two who had gotten gunshot wounds. I don't know if that turned out to be true. But the other two were hobbling a little bit, but they were under their own power and needed no assistance as they got into the ambulance. And they were taken away. I was, to me, it was quite remarkable that somebody who had gone through that ordeal had not only been released in the amazing way that they had, but had come through it in such physical health and such spirits. Have you been able to find out since about how the transfer was made? These were surrendering Iraqi troops? Yes. There are varying versions of this story, but the one that I've heard from here, which is quite a bit removed from where it actually happened, is that the unit that was holding these seven had a desertion by all of the top officers, of course, who's been hearing that that's nothing remarkable. The officers left, lefting some of the junior people with their prisoners. Junior people decided they needed to surrender. Now, some people say they used an intermediary. Others said they themselves went up to highway one with their prisoners and saw the marine unit, a light armored division heading to Creek for participation in the combat that's

going there. They stopped them and said, we want to surrender, and we have some POWs for you. And of course, the POWs were immediately taken off their hands and returned to our base here. By the way, 65 miles south of Baghdad, the Rockies who surrendered were turned over. They were, of course, taken prisoner and are still going through, were told, intelligence previous. Well, altogether, a pretty good day after, I guess, some real concerns after nobody had heard from these men or about the men and one woman since March. It must tell you that as long as I've been in the business, there's a few moments where you see such a jubilant atmosphere, as you saw here, not only the prisoners themselves, but the Marines on this base who are allowed to come into the tarmac, probably a hundred of them or so, in their Humvee vehicles. And as the ambulances went passed from the helicopter to the short distance to the plane, they lined that tarmac and were plotting as they went passed. It was a very happy moment. Family members around the country were overjoyed at the news.

The parents of Ronald Young were typical. We are so thankful that this went good for all of them. I mean, all seven, can you believe that? It's amazing. Awesome. Awesome. Yes. I'm visually found out that I saw him. It was just like, you know, somebody had won the World Series. Everybody was jumping around and holler and, you know, it was just great. I mean, to me, it was the best thing in the world. It was, you know, the culmination of maybe the culmination of my life, maybe the greatest point in my life. The other major war story today was the continued American advance on Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's ancestral home and last stronghold of forces loyal to his regime. Its myth has more on that and other war news. U.S. Marines battled Iraqi soldiers on the southern outskirts of Tikrit today. New York Times reported Dexter Filkins, a company to force of about 3,000 Marines there. I spoke to him earlier today. The Marines moved in after a pretty intensive bombing by jets and by helicopters that really

worked the place over. I heard a machine gun fire that was rocket. I spoke just a few moments ago to Lieutenant Colonel here, who is part of the spearhead that went into the city and he said that resistance was pretty heavy. They shot and they were shot back at it, but they got the foothold that they wanted. And I think you can be pretty sure that they're going to go back in tomorrow. Dexter, is there any expectation that either Saddam Hussein or key members of his regime are in fact into Tikrit? Well, I think the expectation is that there are senior military people here with senior Republican guard people here. I spoke to General John Kelly about this very subject before the fighting started and he said, our best information is that, and this surprise me, he said, our best information

is that most of the big guys in the government, he didn't name any names, but he said most of the big guys in Saddam Hussein's government are believed to already left the country. I assume it's now dark, Dexter is fighting continuing after dark? Well, most of the fighting has stopped, although just as I picked up the phone to call, there were some artillery fire going on, just as the sun set a couple of hours ago, you could still see the F-18s in the air. It's a beautiful night here, I should add. I mean, it must be about 60 degrees and it's a full moon, so it's, we're just out here on the plains outside the city and it's quite lovely, it's hard to imagine what's going on, but city ridden. Earlier today, U.S. forces found abandoned Iraqi tanks and equipment along the road as they made their advance towards Tahrir, but today in an interview on CNN's late edition,

U.S. Commander General Tommy Franks cautioned that the war is not over yet. One would like to think that, but I think we would be premature to say, well gosh, it's all done, it's all finished. There are several things we know, we know that the Army has been destroyed, the Iraqi Army has been destroyed. We know that there is no regime command and control in existence right now. We know that there are pockets of, I've heard them referred to as everything from paramilitary to death squad to Fettine, Saddam. We know that there are pockets of that. We also know that there are pockets of foreigners in Iraq who have decided to fight to their last breath. And so until we have a sense that we have all of that under control, then we probably will not characterize the initial military phase as having been completed and the regime totally gone.

In Baghdad, U.S. Marines captured a small group believed to be Saddam Hussein's Fettine soldiers. The fighting wasn't completely a late Sunday, Marines outside the Palestine Hotel, where many foreign journalists are staying battled with snipers, at least one man was taken into custody after a 45-minute firefight. Earlier in the day, Army soldiers guarded banks, hospitals and universities in the capital. But the Ministry of Trade was ablaze, and looting in a few neighborhoods prompted some locals to take matters into their own hand. Marines found large caches of weapons and ammunition in schools and homes like this one. And in the city hall, Marines discovered about 20 luxury cars.

Some valued in the millions of dollars. Not far away, scores of Iraqis protested, angry that water and electricity have been disrupted and civil order not yet restored. In other areas, residents cleaned up after the looters and repaired damage caused by coalition bombs. In the southern city of Vosra, British troops distributed a newspaper that they said was written by Iraqis for Iraqis. Basically, I think the first example of some repressed for Iraq, the first time they've had newspaper from outside that hasn't been directed by the Baaf party and hasn't been Saddam's message. And this is basically been written by locals with a bit of input from the military explaining what we're up to, the fact that we're here to help, and we're here to put Iraq back on a speech again and try to help the Iraqis to build a speech for their country. British soldiers also worked with locally rocky policemen to establish a functioning police

force in Iraq's second largest city. In northern Iraq, US tanks rolled into central Kirikov. Troops controlled that town, rampaged by looters over the weekend. They also secured the oil field there. US officials said production could resume in a few weeks. A US Marine was killed overnight at a checkpoint outside a Baghdad medical facility. His assailant, killed by other Marines, was carrying Syrian identification. Four other soldiers were shot and wounded while clearing an arms dump in the southern part of the city. And a special force of soldier in Mosul was shot in the leg while on security patrol. The official number of US dead in the war so far is 117. Four US troops remained missing. After the seven American prisoners of war were found today, the POW count now stands at zero. The British death toll is 31.

And there still is no reliable number of Iraqi military and civilian casualties. Gwen. Thanks, Terry. US-led forces reportedly have captured Saddam Hussein's half-brother in northern Iraq, the associated press reporter that's binding today. Watban Eva Haim Hassan was a apprehended of recent days in the Mosul area and was apparently planning to cross the border into Syria. In Washington, President Bush issued another warning to Syria today saying it must not become a safe haven for the fleeing Iraqi regime. Syrian government needs to cooperate with the United States and our coalition partners and not harbor any, any battles, any military officials, any people who need to be held to account for their tenure during what we are learning more and more about it was one of the most horrendous governments ever. In London, Secretary of State Powell said the Iraqi people will choose their future government in democratic elections.

He said, we are not in the business of installing the next president of Iraq. Powell hoped to dispel fears that the US will appoint a puppet administration in Iraq. Well, the screens are now... While US Marines are now in to create, there is still no definitive word on the status or whereabouts of Saddam Hussein, Defense Secretary of Rumsfeld, and General Tommy Franks of US Central Command talked about Saddam's possible fate on the Sunday News programs. Where is Saddam Hussein? I don't know, he's either dead or he's running a lot. What's your hunch rate? I don't... My boss doesn't permit me to have hunch as well. He'll simply be alive until I can confirm he's dead. Are you looking for his DNA at that crater? Well, the appropriate people with the appropriate forensics are doing checks you would find appropriate in each of the places where we think we may have killed regime leadership.

Do you have DNA of Saddam Hussein? Of course. Of course. Of course. So you'll be able to confirm the positive confirmation. If in fact he was in that building. Well, unless remains were removed, I mean, one wouldn't ever want to say for sure, a hundred percent, you know, you can do anything. But what you should know is that we have the forensic capability to chase these things down and we'll chase them down every one of them all the way. Mr. Secretary, what is the latest on Saddam Hussein? Do we believe he's dead? Do we have DNA that if we do turn up a body we'll be able to identify? Just tell us what you can tell us about the whole business of where he is or if you think he's dead. The day that goes by that we aren't given intelligence information. When I say intelligence, I shouldn't say that. It scraps of information and it's this report or that report. And if you add it all up and inhale it, I think reasonable people come to the conclusion

that we don't know, that there are people who think he's dead, there are people who think he was badly injured, there are people who think he may be alive. I don't chase those rabbits, my attitude is we'll find out and eventually he'll be through. But do you think we'll ever know, sure, we will know, I think so. For more on the significance of U.S. military advances on Tikrit and President Bush's latest warning to Syria about harboring senior Iraqi officials, we get two views. We're joined by one of our regular military analysts, retired Army Colonel W. Patrick Lange. He's a former Middle East analyst with the Defense Intelligence Agency. And wasn't tonight his students Yaffe, who specialized in the Middle East for 20 years at the CIA. She's now a senior research fellow at the National Defense University in Washington. Welcome. Colonel Lange, what is the significance of what we have discovered in Tikrit? Well, I think it's quite clear now that several days ago on the evening in which this massive

strike took place to try to kill the maximum leader, in fact, that after that everything felt a bit. I think that's probably the best evidence we have that he has certainly effectively removed from the scene. So all cohesive efforts at defense seem to have simply fallen apart after that. And troops advancing on Tikrit are, in fact, finding that they have little pockets of this and that. A lot of people have pulled out, gone away, left their equipment, officers of abandoned their men. He's particularly bad about abandoning their men like that. And so I think you can really say with great deal of assurance that the war, in terms of occupying Iraq and destroying the regime, is effectively over now. It's a question of pacifying the country, really. Yaffe, why did Tikrit seem to be such a critical stronghold for the U.S. to take? Well, I think there are two reasons, first of all, it's probably the last city, the last area that has not fallen under, has not fallen to the war. But then there's this symbolic importance, which is to create and the area around it is

not just Saddam Hussein's home area, but also that of most of the people in his regime that he relied on, the pillars of his regime, most of the Republican guard, the special Republican guard, the bodyguard units all came from there. And most of the family is extended family had homes there. There's a palace and also a big military compound, symbolically, that's the importance. But militarily, was it that important in the end? Well, I will defer to my military friend here, but yes, I think it is to us, to them, it was past military significance. Okay, our military friend, what do you think? Well, I think the war was essentially over, as I said a few days ago, and what we're really doing, nobody's like to say mopping up anymore, but that's really what we're doing. When journalists can wander in and out of town, if you shot it a few times, you know that there isn't a serious incoherent defense there to defend the place. Some politically, symbolically, as you'd have said, has a great significance.

But there are other places in the country, too, where people still think Saddam wasn't so bad. If you see the coverage from up in Mosul, I mean, there are a lot of people in the Sunni Muslim majority, if they were not very happy with our presence. How about in Qirkuk, where the oil fields were? Was that important for different reasons, economic reasons? Yes, of course. I mean, it's the center of the oil activity in the north, but as well, it's a very complex ethnic thing there. You know, there's a substantial trickle-on population that the Turks and Turkey are interested in protecting as their ethnic brothers. There are C.W. number of Sunni Muslims there as well, and there are a lot of Arabs that were brought in by Saddam to be resettled there to push Kurds out of the way, and now they're all going away. Because something has to be watched her closely. Well, it was important because there was a flashpoint for all of us watching. If you were to be asked before this war started, where would the flashpoints be? Well, we either will have to fight the hardest or have maybe one of our most serious strategic problems.

Qirkuk was tops of the list because of the Kurds wanting to take over, because of the Turkmen wanting it back, because of the Arabs who were there, and because the Turks were watching it. Are there other remaining pockets of resistance, likely pockets of resistance we should be watching for? Is it pretty much freelance resistance at this point? Well, there's a C.W. significant fight going on out of Al-Qaeda where the Euphrates River crosses the border in the Syria, and I would think if, in fact, that regime figures are fleeing towards Syria as we were being told, that this border town, which is substantial, I think, would want to be held by it here, and so the regime as long as possible is a kind of door in the Syria. That's a significant, and in the Syria situation itself continues to evolve in directions, which look rather worrisome for the future to me. There obviously have a lot of factual fighting going on there, and that could be a big deal in the future. Let's talk about this idea of Iraqi officials fleeing to Syria. Saddam Hussein has not been definitively found. We just heard Tommy Franks say that they've got the DNA, so if they find some evidence of him or his remains, they can prove it's him, but there was some thought that he

might be into trade, is that a big setback that at least we haven't found him there yet? I'm not a setback, but I'm not sure why we expected him to go there. I guess if you expected there to be the final fight, the final battle, that might have made sense, but my guess is that would have been too obvious for him to go there, and he would have known that. So if he wasn't killed in one of the bombings in Baghdad, my guess is he very well could have gotten out. It's interesting that we haven't seen really for quite some time. If you go back a week or two before the collapse, you're only seeing information minister Sahath. You didn't see any of the top leaders of the regime. There was no more Tariq Aziz, no more Islet Ibrahim, or Tahayashi, insarawi, and those three are very senior people. You didn't see anyone, not even the foreign minister, Nashisabri, so where were they? Are they left already? Were they making plans to do so?

It seems to me that some of that might have been, they may have been calculating before that last big attack on their escape routes. I'll tell you what you really don't want to see happen is you don't want to have a bunch of these cabinet ministers of the former government and other figures show up in Damascus and declare that they are a government in exile, and they have the Syrians a lot of a mistake, if that happens, it will focus tremendous attention on Syria and be a focal point for a continued resistance in Iraq. Of all the President and the Defense Secretary already are interested in focusing considerable attention on Syria. What do we think that they are getting at and how significant do we think, because we heard the Syrians today say, no, no, no, no, we had nothing to do with this. How likely is it that Syria is involved? Well, Syria is the most likely place for any fleeing Iraqi to go. The other borders would be closed. You certainly wouldn't go to Iran, you'd be turned over, or to Turkey, for that matter. But Syria, in a sense, because of the affinity, and I think also because the poorest border, the assumption we made, fairly safe to get through and to get out of there, they're not

going to stay in Syria. That would be much too risky. If they're going to declare a government in exile, it would be from someplace far away. I don't think they would congregate and stay there because it even Saddam would have to calculate that it's too easy to pressure Damascus that would not be a safe place also. The Iraqi Baptist have never been well-liked in Syria, so the likelihood of them being, say, turned over by this, what had been a rival group, even a Baptist really is terribly important, Syria either. There's a high risk because of personal animosity. Is Syria that unfriendly to the Hussein region? Oh, yeah. I mean, the two branches of the Ba'ath party hate each other's guts, you know, and there are a lot of other little branches of the Ba'ath party that the place is too. But in fact, you know, it's an open secret in the Middle East that, in fact, the Syrian government has been doing an awful lot to assist the Iraqis in the last few years. There's been a lot of money to be made for one way or another, and when you have an outside enemy, it tends to focus people on relationships that they wouldn't otherwise want to have.

And so I don't know where else they would be safe if they leave, if they don't stay in Syria. I wouldn't think they'd go to the Riviera. I don't think they'd go there. No, but there's a lot of money for Syria to make in the future in Iraq and they have to look towards the future. First, in terms of their own security, not to be threatened by us, because I think that's one of the reasons we're bringing so much pressure on them, but what do you mean by that? Well, bearing pressure on Syria, don't safe haven. Don't provide a harbor for these renegade Iraqi fugitives. But the other thing is that there's a lot of money to be made in the future in terms of reconstruction, investment, getting oil pumped through the Syrian pipeline again. So the Syrians will have to play this very carefully, and it's not going to be calculated to their advantage to provide a help which could wind up getting them sanctioned. If Saddam or evidence of this remains, we're not found in Baghdad or to create or in Syria, how important is it for this administration or for this operation to have some evidence of Saddam's whereabouts in order to declare this a victory? Well, I think you're perfectly justified in declaring a victory now, with no matter what

happened to Saddam, as long as you don't show up someplace, you know? But in fact, the issue, it would be very, very helpful in dealing with the rest of the Arab world and places like that to have physical evidence of his death, because otherwise people are very good at constructing mythology out there, and they're going to start constructing some sort of myth of Saddam and hiding somewhere to lead the forces of nationalism or such thing. Well, it's true. You're so great. Why couldn't you find Saddam? I couldn't find Osama either, but the real success in this war is going to come the day after, not today, not yesterday. I'm waiting to see who shakes out of the trees, who in Saddam's regime falls out and what we can find out from them, and also our success in establishing security law in order. That is going to be what brings us success in the meat-even-longer term. Let's talk for a moment about people being shaken out of the trees yesterday in this program. We discussed the arrest or the rest of the scientists of his top scientists.

Today, there are reports that his half-brother was taken in. Is he a significant figure? No, I'm not really. Nice to have you, but he's been in virtual isolation since his nephew, Uday, Saddam's oldest son, shot him in the kneecaps, back in 95 or 96, it doesn't matter. Also, he's been in virtual seclusion, just as his either or two other brothers, Samawi and Barzon. Barzon is the brother I would want to get the half-brother. He was the one who was a Geneva for many years. He was a real thug ahead of security and intelligence. Supposedly knew where a lot of the money and the assets that had been taken abroad were buried. I would like to get my hands on him and my guess is he also was living in forced seclusion somewhere in secrete and has disappeared, Colonel Lang, if you were still doing your old job, who would you like to get your hands on? Well, I think that you need to get a few of these cabinet ministers and talk to them enough so that you can find out for sure whether or not they can indicate you that in fact

the Saddam is in fact dead, because that's a very significant thing in terms of how we'll reformulate our political position across the Middle East, and that I think would be right at the top of my priority list. Okay, well, we'll pick up with that next time, Pat Lang, to the author, thank you very much for joining us. This is Wilcomtron. Now another talk with John Dennis Ffsky of the Los Angeles Times in Baghdad. Terrence Smith spoke with him earlier this evening. John Dennis Ffsky, welcome. We pleased to see you and Baghdad. That's it like there tonight. More looting still? Well, I think the looters don't work at night so much. I think they prefer to work during the day when they can see what they're taking. The electricity is still off here. I have heard a few fire, well, gunfireing a little while ago, some heavy machine gone off in the distance.

There are still pockets of resistance among the fedigene, I think, and now it's more Iraqi spiting Iraqis than Iraqis versus the Americans. We're seeing pictures, however, during the day of looting and struggles going on. Did you see that? Yes, of course, all day long, all over the city, people were still looting. I think the best things have been taken, but people are looking for other buildings to prey upon or they're picking over the leavings of other looters and they have been setting fires to some buildings when they finish looting. The national theater for one was set on fire and a few of the ministries. Someone explained to me today that the looters set fires when they leave because there are things that they couldn't take and they don't want anyone else to get them, which I thought was sort of strange, but it seems to be going on. We have some headlines here in this country about the looting and destruction in the national museum, the home of some really rare antiquities.

Yes, the museum is completely looted and vandalized. All the exhibits have been taken out as far as we can tell and the ones that were too big to remove people vandalized and destroyed. So it really is a terrible tragedy in terms of loss of national culture. The collection of Mesopotamian artifacts was the greatest in the world, 40,000 years of history gone down the drain in a matter of 24 hours. You were at a children's hospital today, John, what did you see there? Well, I was at the children's hospital. The number of new patients coming in is smaller as the war has diminished and the doctors were relieved about that, but there were sad scenes out in the yard outside the hospital. This was the Saddam pediatric hospital. Their relatives were coming to reclaim the bodies that had been buried in the hospital yard

because there was no time to take them to the cemetery during the war. So the relatives were coming back very slowly looking over all these graves for ones that had the names of their relatives, very sadly taking shovels and trowels and digging up, exposing the bodies, lifting them out, putting them in wooden caskets, covered with lags with karenic scenes on them, and taking them away and weaving while they were doing that. What is life like there now, is it even approaching getting back to normal? Well, I took a long walk this evening as dusk was falling through one neighborhood and I was struck by how much life is getting back to normal. I saw women putting out clothes on their clothes lines. I saw men sitting in a tea house, playing dominoes. I saw other men gathered in front of the store, exchanging gossip, and you could almost

think that there had never been a war except I also had the sense that these people, as they were smiling at me, were somewhat appreciative to have been relieved of the government of Saddam Hussein, and the only sign of the war that I saw in this long walk where the barricades, the people had put up at the interest to their neighborhoods to keep up the looters. And are the U.S. forces there beginning to assert themselves in an effort to control the looters? They are, but it's still very tentative. There are only 20,000 U.S. troops in the city, and it's a city of 4.5 million, so there's a number of factor that plays against them. But I do see them guarding more and more installations. They were out in front of some hospitals today, in front of some ministries, and they're also enlisting local volunteers to help them push back the looters and keep them in

check. Okay, John Dannoffevsky, thank you very, very much. Thank you, Terry. Reaction in the Arab world to a stunning week of news from Baghdad, we start with a report from a special correspondent Simon Marks in Amman, Jordan. These are confusing and bewildering times for the people of Jordan. For the past week they've been glued to their televisions, they have devoured their newspapers, and they have been stunned and amazed by the speed with which the Iraqi regime fell. You said about what happened to the Iraqi people. Rami Batrai works in Jordan's information technology sector. We found him with his friends at an American-style bookstore and coffee shop in the centre of Amman.

Jordan's young professionals, who just a few days ago, expected Saddam Hussein to give U.S. forces a run for their money. Now profess astonishment that it all fell apart so fast. Our hearts and minds were with the Iraqi people, and we were shocked when we saw them welcoming the and celebrating the end of war when Saddam disappeared suddenly and the Americans walked in the streets of Baghdad. We were really shocked because every – in the past three weeks or months, every single minute of our lives, we were thinking poor Iraqis, what's going to happen to them and I was really shocked when – I mean, they could have stayed at home and do nothing. That was better. A war that the Pentagon said would start with a military operation called shock and door, has certainly brought those qualities to downtown Amman. People here are still trying to comprehend the scale of the changes unfolding on the other side of the country's border with Iraq.

They express anger and disappointment that Saddam Hussein promised such a vigorous defense of his country, yet delivered so little, the Iraqi leader who was said to be passionately worried about his historical standing in the Arab world, now has a dreadful reputation in Jordan. We're talking about Amman who used to get rid of people closest to him, just to ensure his staying in power, which is considered a very – someone only a coward would do something like that, so basically only a coward would run away and leave without any kind of fight or any kind of resistance. But it isn't only Saddam Hussein who is being blamed here for the US-led victory – but Friday prayers in the center of the Jordanian capital, many worshippers who, just

a week previously, had participated in anti-war protests, now blame the Iraqi people as well. I would have hoped that the Iraqi people would defend their land and their homes, because the worst thing is that they threw stones at Assad, and they welcomed the American and British armies. This is absolutely shameful, it's a disgrace to their honor and to their faith. We used to demonstrate to express our feelings and support for the Iraqi people. What are we going to demonstrate for now? The government has collapsed, in an instance there is no Iraq, no nothing. So what are we going to demonstrate for? How can we demonstrate against the American occupation, damn it, there's nothing we can do. George Hoatma is the editor of Al-Rai, one of Iran's leading newspapers. His journalists have been working night and day to keep up with the changes in Baghdad and to reflect reactions on the Arab streets of Jordan.

Their hearts and their feelings were with fellow Arabs and fellow Muslims. I don't think many had thought Iraq would win the war. Everybody knew that the United States could wipe Iraq out totally. But they were at least hoping for some resistance. If only to believe that Arab sovereignty and independence are a territory, cannot be easily violated. Today, like every newspaper in the Arab world, Al-Rai is calling on the U.S. to withdraw from Iraq and leave the country's governance to the Iraqi people. It is the implications of what all this means for the Arab nation, for the concept of our immunity that troubles so many people here in Oman. While not wanting to defend the tyrannical rule of Saddam Hussein, they feel personally ashamed that many Iraqis welcomed American tanks. And they are shocked that the rule of law seems to have broken down in so many parts of a country that prides itself on being the cradle of civilization.

While looting underway in Baghdad and Iraq's other large cities, angers Jordan's people and worries the country's government. The immediate fear is that far from exporting democracy to the rest of the Arab world, as U.S. policymakers hope, Iraq may export instability instead. In a region filled with restive populations that are carefully controlled by their governments, all of his images being carried on pan-Arab networks like Al-Jazeera have an enormous power to influence opinions and pictures of a 180-degree shift in Iraq's direction that has occurred in a mere three weeks, a picture that can give nearby populations ideas. In Jordan, for example, King Abdullah and his government have repeatedly denied published accusations that they've assisted the United States in its invasion of Iraq, a move that would enrage many people here.

But the site of transport planes flying low in the skies over Oman and Americans on the streets has only served to fuel the public's belief that Jordan is somehow involved. Influential voices in Oman, both in government and outside it are now urging the United States to bring the crisis in Iraq under immediate control. They want to see solid action. They don't want empty promises. We've lived enough with the double standards pursued by the West so far. We're not going to believe, we're not going to take words from them anymore. They thought they're about to interact with one, we're yet to see what they're going to do with their victory. Some in Jordan aren't prepared to wait even now. Some of the 100,000 Iraqis who call Jordan home are trying to return to Iraq. They say to fight the Americans. America is just cheating in lies. The Iraqi people will not accept what America says.

I'm Iraqi and I wish I could go back to Iraq. And when I go back, I'll teach my children and my grandchildren, fight for their country and shall reject the Americans. Two weeks ago when Saddam Hussein was still in power, one could wonder whether those words were simply talk. Now he's gone, it's apparent that inside Jordan, many simply view the USA as an occupying power. It's another indication that the United States has some work to do, fighting another battle to influence hearts and minds and to persuade the Arab world that having lifted the yoke of Saddam Hussein's repression. There's a brighter future ahead for Iraq and its people. Ray Suarez takes it from there. For more on the Arab reaction, we turn to Hisham Melam, Washington correspondent for the Beirut newspaper Ah-Safir. He also has a weekly show on Al-Arabiah, the Arab cable news channel based in Dubai. And Shibley Telhami, a professor at the University of Maryland, he's also the author of

the stakes about Arab and Muslim perceptions of U.S. policy toward the Middle East. Well, Shibley, anger toward Jordan for folding so quickly, shock that the Americans were able to be in Baghdad right away, continuing anger at the United States. Give us a tour of what you think are the main points of Arab public opinion now. Well, the Arab public is certainly stunned and also in denial. I mean, let me contrast this in a way with the defeat in 1967, 1967, there was a very difficult painful defeat for the Arab states in the 67 War when Israel defeated Egypt, Jordan, and Syria all at once. At that time, clearly people did believe that Arabs had a chance of winning. They in fact believed that the Arabs would win the war and there was a stunning, stunning realization that the Arabs didn't win. In this case, I think when people went into the war, no one really believed Iraq has a chance of winning.

And in that sense, they saw the U.S. as an aggressor trying to defeat the weaker nation. However, during the first two weeks of that war, because there were surprises in a way, because it wasn't quite as easy as people predicted in the first week at least. Many people in the region came to believe the press that in fact, Iraq had a chance. And so the rapid fall of Baghdad after this two-week period in which people came to believe maybe they have more of a chance to delay, at least to put up the fight. That really resulted in a stunning, I think, realization that Arab world, that's one. But then there is the realization that this regime in Saddam Hussein is much more ruthless than they had come to acknowledge for themselves. The resentment of America was so strong that it blinded many to what was going on on the ground and the extent to which the Iraqi people wanted to liberate themselves from this man. The pictures that they saw, not only in terms of people welcoming the U.S. forces, celebrating the fall of the regime, but also the looting, the anarchy that was sort of an expression

of repression over such a long period of time, were more stunning, I think, in a way than the American victory itself. Heshim, a lot of the people who were interviewed by Western reporters in other Arab capitals, at first denied that those people celebrating in the streets were, in fact, Iraqis. Many said, well, they were probably Kurds, and they were probably actors. Is it now sinking in that something has happened in that country? Very reluctantly. Most Arabs did not want to realize or to accept the fact that a major Arab state, one of the two or three major Arab states, as we used to say in the old days, Iraq could have been a contender for the leadership position in the Arab world. Not only for the swift collapse of that House of Cards, but also for the incredible descent of a whole country and a whole society into hell, when Iraqis themselves were sacking their own city, their own cities, their own museums, their own hospitals. And the Americans were watching, essentially.

They did not want to believe that. They felt that, yes, Iraq will lose, eventually. But maybe the Americans will get their nose blooded in this fight. And then if the Iraqis are going to go down, let them go down fighting. That did not happen. There was a great deal of denial. And unfortunately, many Arab intellectuals, many people in the Arab media, perpetuated this myth of Iraq that Iraq is somewhat exceptional place, that Saddam has a strong regime. Nobody wanted to admit or to discuss openly and honestly that this is a brittle regime, this is a regime led by a whole lot of men, that he occurred to me when I was watching the Kurds, four and a half million people collaborating with the Americans, put that on side. Watch the Shia, most of them in the South and the Center, either welcoming, guardedly, the Americans or watching them suspiciously and adopting a way to see an attitude. The only way to explain it was to see it as a function of what that regime did to those people over the last 35 years, for the average curd, the person or the party that violated Kurdistan was Saddam.

For the Shia, the party or the group that violated their sanctuaries and their religious places was that regime in Iraq. And that, many Arabs did not want to admit, many Arabs were ashamed. And today the Arab world looks like a house with no roof because the Arabs in this moment, in their modern day history, look impotent, weak, vulnerable, unable to determine their own present, let alone their own future, when an expeditionary force of 300,000 men and women come across the oceans to change the country, probably to re-mold it in America's image. And they are frightened. And also that reaction should be seen as a function of the depth of alienation that Arabs in general, regardless of political backgrounds, feel vis-a-vis the United States. Professor you heard Hisham talking about a brittle regime. But in the state-controlled presses in many countries in the Arab world, on these new satellite channels, are the publics seeing the torture chambers, are they seeing the mass graves, are they seeing the evidence now, and the personal testimonies that you're hearing

from Arabs on the streets in Iraq that this was a bad place to live before the Americans got there. So I mean clearly I watched the media on regular bases and the pictures of being shown on television. There's even there some denial about sort of the degree to which that was the case and how much of this is stage managed and so forth. You have those kind of reactions in many parts of the Arab world. But I think you have more of realization. I think people coming to grips with it, the extent to which this was pervasive in Iraq, and the extent to which it's pervasive in many other parts. But you also get particularly colors of calling on these shows on Arab television of people saying okay he's a dictator, we have other dictators, but he was specifically targeted because he's serving US interests not because he was a dictator. You have that kind of thing coming out. But I want to just go back very briefly to what he sham said and I think it's a very important point here. Aside from this stunning surprising kind of unfolding of events, is that you have to put this in a historical perspective here.

Iraq in the late 70s was on the verge of a breakthrough. It was about to become maybe the nation that was going to become the first Middle Eastern Tiger, a rich country, a strong country, and this was the secular regime that was going to liberalize, that it was going to bring about Arab greatness and instead the minute this man became president, he took his nation on a nightmarish trip through the Iran-Iraq war through the Kuwait war through the international sanctions and this really is a collapse of a paradigm that has dominated the thinking and so clearly right now there is not only despair pertaining to the state of affairs in the Arab world but there is a vacuum, there is a total vacuum, clearly the Arab League has not done its job, its failed, it has not presented and also the major Arab states who are on the march of the United States, a great state like Egypt, 70 million people was on the march on Saudi Arabia, was on the march on a tiny state like Qatar, 125,000 citizens provided the United States with the biggest

air base in the Gulf and in that state and ruled by a man who came to power through a military coup of rhetoric, his father, not answerable to anybody, that state not even qualified to be a steady state was more influential in determining the outcome of the war than a major state with 7,000 years of history of 70 million people like Egypt or Saudi Arabia unlike 1991, these countries were marginalized and when you add to them Syria now which is on the defensive Iraq now is in shambles, that is why the Arabs feel vulnerable for the first time since 1967, but if Iraq was on the verge of a breakthrough and granted most Arabs who now inhabit these countries weren't alive in 1967, they weren't alive in the 70s, how come there's been so much reluctance to lay the culpability for the destruction of Iraq at the door of the people who were running Iraq rather than at the door of the United States?

Well you know the reality is that there was a lot of resentment of that regime early on, recall even in the 1980s countries like Syria and many in Lebanon opposed the regime to the extent of supporting Iran and on Arab state and that war, sure in the Gulf they were felt more threatened by Iran at the time, the reality behind Iraq largely because of the fear of the Iranian Islamic revolution, look at Kuwait, when Iraq invaded Kuwait people did rally and clearly there was a window of opportunity there, so it was not a unified picture but what has transpired I think is that people were always blinded by suspicions of American intentions by growing resentment of America and by the Arab-Israeli issue which clearly has blinded people to the reality that is happening inside Iraq itself. Now are the passions that you and the professor are talking about, a product of the moment and really is there a window for the United States here to do one thing or another to change the way this is perceived one, two, five years from there.

The passions are there because again because that history, every time an American official talks about spreading the values of democracy and parliamentary elections and empowerment of people in the Middle East, whether they are conscious of it or not, they are running against their past 50 year history, they are running against a certain legacy in which Americans used to believe that there is something called Islamic exceptionalism, i.e. democracy is incompatible with Islam and therefore they were in bed with the worst Arab autocrats and dictators with the worst dictators of Turkey during the military rule and the rule and the Shah of Iran at that time. So when you talk about freedom and democracy nowadays, people are going to look at you suspiciously with very good reasons, that's one. The United States is not benign power, the United States has a certain history, has certain interest, has certain alliances with the country like Israel for instance, that sense of humiliation and anger that Arabs feel because they were defeated, they had the hands of Israelis with support from their American supporters. So now if the United States is going to act as the sole master in terms of shaping, determining the future of a major Arab country, rape for us Arabs, non-Iraqies, back there occupies

a place similar to the place that Athens and Rome occupies in the modern history or the ancient history of Europe. So the demise of a place like Baghdad is painful to all of us and do not say should be aware of this. If they are going to reshape the future of the Middle East in their own image, if they are going to start building a new Imperium, beginning with Baghdad, then I can see hundreds and thousands of young recruits going Osama bin Laden's way and we will all lose in the Middle East. Anybody who is a reformer, who is a Democrat, who is a liberal and I think that's the biggest tragedy for the United States today. You should Professor, thanks a lot, pleasure, thank you. Again the major war developments of the day and deterrence myth. Seven American prisoners of war were safe and Kuwait tonight.

A group of Iraqi soldiers handed them over to a U.S. marine unit outside of Tikrit. As in Kuwait, said they were all in good shape, although two have gun shot wounds. Meanwhile American forces met little resistance as the Marines moved into Tikrit. The last stronghold of Saddam Hussein's regime. Glenn? Thanks again, Terry. In other news today, the Prime Minister of Israel opened the door to possible peace negotiations with the Palestinians. Ariel Sharon hinted in a newspaper interview that Israel is willing to hand over some Jewish settlements in the West Bank. But in return he said the Palestinians must give up their demand that refugees be allowed to return to their former homes in Israel. Pope John Paul II marked the start of the Christian Holy Week with a palm Sunday mass in St. Peter's Square. He urged thousands of young people in the crowd to have brotherly solidarity with their counterparts suffering in Iraq and around the world.

Severe, acute respiratory syndrome, has claimed five more lives in Hong Kong, the latest deaths included four people who had been in good health before falling ill. They failed to respond to treatment that had helped other victims. Singapore also reported three more SARS fatalities today worldwide, at least 133 people have died from the disease, about 3,000 people have been infected. For the record, we have no honor roll of U.S. deaths in Iraq tonight because no new names with photographs were made available today. We'll see you online and at our regular news hour time tomorrow evening. For now, I'm Gwen Eiffel, thank you, and good night. Major funding for the news hour with Jim Lehrer has been provided by... Imagine a world where we're not diminishing resources, we're growing with ethanol, a cleaner burning fuel made from corn, ADM, the nature of what's to come.

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