The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, the Kosovo crisis continues. Spencer Michels summarizes the day's events. Then, the views of Senators Hagel, Leiberman, Hutchinson, and Wellstone; the stories of two ethnic Albanians who just came to the US from Kosovo; and a Betty Ann Bowser report on Kosovo as a religious issue. We'll have the other news of this Monday at the end of the program tonight.

FOCUS - CAMPAIGN FOR KOSOVO

JIM LEHRER: NATO foreign ministers met in Brussels today to show solidarity over Kosovo. They did so as NATO planes and missiles struck targets in Serbia overnight. Spencer Michels has our summary of today's bombing-related events.

SPENCER MICHELS: NATO planes and missiles continued to inflict damage on Serbia today, despite poor weather. Yugoslav state media claimed that a passenger train traveling from Belgrade to Solonika, Greece, was hit by NATO air strikes or missiles as it crossed under a bridge. Yugoslav authorities said the attack killed up to nine passengers and hospitalized sixteen others. US Major General Charles Wald said the bridge was a legitimate military target.

MAJOR GENERAL CHARLES WALD, US Air Force: I can't tell you the circumstances. I can tell you that NATO has released the fact that a bridge was attacked, and there was an indication there may have been a train on that bridge. They're reviewing that right now but I'll reiterate again, Ivan, that we do everything we can, as you know, to avoid any collateral damage, planned for the minimum collateral damage. This is not risk-free. It is not risk-free to the Serbians. And it's certainly not risk-free to our forces, as well.

SPENCER MICHELS: Serb television showed scenes of several factories in flames, some of them targets which had been hit before. This is identified as an oil refinery northeast of Belgrade. And a thermal heating plant also apparently was hit. Serb TV claimed civilians had been injured in the attack. The TV station showed hundreds of people apparently acting as human shields standing on the last remaining bridge across the Danube River in the northern city of Novi Sad, a tactic which has also been used in Belgrade. In a town south of Belgrade, the Serbs claimed NATO missiles were responsible for damage to residential areas and for the deaths of a baby and her father.

WOMAN: [speaking through interpreter] We were sleeping. Nobody expected this -- the house, me and my husband and my little girl.

SPENCER MICHELS: On the Albanian border with Kosovo, Serbian forces clashed with Kosovar rebels and claimed to have killed 150. Yesterday, the Albanian government, besieged by 300,000 refugees, asked NATO to prevent attacks on its borders. Today, NATO reportedly bombed the Kosovar border town of Jacovo. Journalists in Albania reported they saw several truckloads of Kosovo Liberation Army soldiers heading for the Kosovo border. In Belgrade, a well-known independent journalist who published a paper often critical of President Slobodan Milosevic was shot and killed by masked gunmen. Slavko Curuvija was shot in the back as he entered his apartment, and his companion was pistol whipped. Serb police said they were investigating. At the Pentagon this afternoon, reporters asked General Charles Wald if he had seen any signs the Serbs were hunkering down against a possible ground attack.

MAJOR GENERAL CHARLES WALD: I think they're kind of hunkering down a little bit next to some of the villages. And whether that's because they're concerned about being attacked from the air or whether they're running out of fuel or whether that's their tactic remains to be speculation, I think. But I would say the fact that they're not moving around a lot demonstrates they are probably concerned about being attacked.

SPENCER MICHELS: On the diplomatic front, the Yugoslav parliament voted to formally join an alliance with Russia and Belarus. Yugoslavia has never before joined an alliance with a foreign nation. At the same time, Russian President Boris Yeltsin spoke by phone with French President Jacques Chirac, who praised Moscow for continuing contacts with the West, despite Russia's friendship with Serbia. In Brussels, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright met with NATO's foreign ministers in a show of unity. They reiterated their demands that Kosovo Albanians be allowed to return home protected by NATO troops, and that the Serb troops leave Kosovo. The organization's secretary-general, Javier Solana, sounded optimistic.

JAVIER SOLANA: Milosevic is losing, and he knows he's losing. NATO's united. We have justice and right on our side. And we will prevail.

SPENCER MICHELS: Secretary Albright in response to a question denied there was any plan to split up or partition Kosovo between the Serbs and the ethnic Albanians.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, Secretary of State: On the question of partition, there is no discussion of that, or that is not an option that is being considered, certainly not an option that I favor. And there are a number of ways that people are looking at what a future state would look like, but while there are kind of discussions exploring various modes, the idea of partition is not one that has a lot of favors.

SPENCER MICHELS: Another question concerned the possibility of NATO ground troops. British Foreign Minister Robin Cook said it was still not an option.

ROBIN COOK: If you mean by that did we decide to prepare for such a fighting force to invade Kosovo or Serbia, the answer is no. We have no intention of carrying out such an invasion. We have no plans to do such an invasion. There's been no change in our policy on this question. Indeed, I have repeatedly myself stressed that even if we were to contemplate it, it would be two or three months before we would assemble such a force. We cannot wait two or three months. That is why the most immediate, direct way we can change the balance of forces in Kosovo is by intensifying our air campaign.

SPENCER MICHELS: President Clinton reflected on the human toll; at a ceremony to thank B-52 crews involved in the Balkans mission, he called the stories he was hearing truly chilling.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Serb security forces hurting Albanian villagers together, gunning them down with automatic weapons, and setting them on fire, telling villagers, "Leave or we will kill you;" separating family members; seeking literally to erase the presence of these people in their own land forever -- we must not let that happen.

SPENCER MICHELS: The President said, "We must nip this conflict in the bud before it destabilizes all of Europe."

PRESIDENT CLINTON: And I say to all of you, I am very proud of you. I hope you are proud of your mission. This is America at its best. We seek no territorial gain. We seek no political advantage. This is America trying to get the world to live on human terms so we can have peace and freedom in Europe and our people will not be called to fight a wider war for someone else's madness. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

SPENCER MICHELS: As the President spoke, refugees continued to seek shelter.-- 350 arrived by train in Montenegro. But with an increasingly desperate lack of places in there, 2,000 Kosovo Albanians crossed the border into Albania today, and they told now-familiar tales of woe.

MAN: [speaking through interpreter] My brothers were in, but they fled and nobody knows where they have gone. Racak is empty. Only some dogs are left.

SPENCER MICHELS: NATO estimated that 700,000 people have been displaced in the conflict so far. Yugoslav authorities said that in the last three weeks, 300 people have been killed, and 3,000 people injured by NATO bombs.

FOCUS - CONGRESSIONAL VIEWS

JIM LEHRER: Now, the return of congress from a two-week recess to face the war in Kosovo. Kwame Holman begins.

KWAME HOLMAN: As members arrived back on capitol hill, some weighed in on what the future should hold for US participation in NATO's operations in the Balkans.

SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD, [D] Connecticut: I think, at this juncture here, the most important thing I think we can do is to indicate we intend to stick this out. We're not losing patience here. And if that is conveyed effectively over the next week, I think we can see more success with this policy in the short term than might otherwise be expected.

KWAME HOLMAN: Senate Democrat Christopher Dodd of Connecticut was among a few dozen members who traveled to Europe and the Balkan region during the recess. So was Republican Congressman Frank Wolf of Virginia, whose small delegation took along a home video camera as they witnessed refugees from Kosovo streaming across the Albanian border.

SPOKESMAN: It's a little bitty baby. I mean, it's a real little, bitty baby and they're swing it. I've seen a number of babies doing that. I guess it keeps them.

KWAME HOLMAN: An 11-member bipartisan group accompanied Defense Secretary William Cohen as he met with NATO officials in Brussels and toured NATO's Aviano Air Base in Italy. All said they supported the ongoing air campaign against Yugoslavia. Some indicated their willingness to support deployment of US ground troops if needed.

SEN. JOHN McCAIN, [R] Arizona: We lost in Vietnam because we were not willing to commit all of our forces and take every action necessary to win victory. We will not make that mistake in this conflict.

KWAME HOLMAN: In fact, when they returned to Washington late last week, nine of those 11 members sent a letter to President Clinton, urging that he and NATO officials make plans for the use of ground troops in the event that proves necessary to carry out such missions to achieve NATO's broader objective: Reversing Milosevic's genocidal actions in Kosovo. House Republican Steve Buyer of Indiana was among the signers.

REP. STEVE BUYER: My advice to the President, if you're going to lead, you're going to be the commander-in-chief, you state forward that you are going to lead, and you are going to use all means necessary, and you stare down Milosevic, and you back him down.

KWAME HOLMAN: Senator Dodd suggested that Congress should send a clear during this first week back from recess, and should send it with one voice.

SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD: I think it's very important at this point that Mr. Milosevic understand that while there may have been a debate over how well prepared we may have been for this or anticipated how far he would have gone in Kosovo, I think it's extremely important, to the extent possible, that he understand that there is a common purpose and common resolve in this country, among Democrats and republicans, to prevail in this contest of wills. The message that we send in the next 48, 72 hours out of this Congress on this issue, I think, could have a huge effect on the outcome of this conflict. We send divided messages here now in the next 48, 72 hours, I think you extend this conflict a lot longer than necessarily need be the case.

KWAME HOLMAN: This evening, the five top leaders of Congress headed to the White House to discuss the Balkan crisis with President Clinton. Fifty to sixty members from both the House and Senate are expected to do the same tomorrow.

JIM LEHRER: Now the views of four senators: Republicans Chuck Hagel of Nebraska and Tim Hutchinson of Arkansas; Democrats Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and Paul Wellstone of Minnesota. First, Senator Hagel, President Clinton said today that this was America at its best. Do you agree?

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL, [R] Nebraska: I think it is. Not only do we have a moral responsibility, but we have a larger responsibility here, Jim, in our obligations to NATO, our commitment to those people. And I think the President is right on this one. We can't defer this tough decision any more, because if we do, it will get worse. There's butchery going on in the backyard of NATO -- my goodness, if NATO can't deal with it there, a few hundred miles away from NATO headquarters. So any measurement of the responsibilities that we have as a people, it's very clear to me that we have to get in and deal with this along with our 18 NATO allies. And I think we can and I think we should.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Wellstone, do you see it the same way?

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE, [D] Minnesota: I do. I mean, I think that we couldn't turn our gaze away from the slaughter of non-combatant civilians, men and women and children. I think we have to be careful that we do minimize the loss of innocent civilian life on the Serb side. I mean, I worry about that because if there is too much "collateral damage" -

JIM LEHRER: Like today with the train, you mean, over the bridge, under the bridge?

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: If true, yes. I think then we lose some of the powerful moral case we're making. So I worry about that. I've indicated that to the administration. But I don't think we could turn our gaze away from what was happening. The question is whether we're going to be able to stop the slaughter of people and what next.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Do you think that bombing alone will do it, Senator Wellstone?

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: Do -- I don't think that bombing alone will do it. I think there's two tracks right now. I agree with what Chris Dodd said. I think we have to be disciplined. And I think we have to be patient and go forward with this campaign. I also think there's another track of negotiations. And I don't think we should rule that out at all. I think the Russians will be key for better or for worse. I hope for better. And I think we should continue to move on the diplomatic front, as well.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Hutchinson, where do you stand on where things stand right now and what we should be doing?

SEN. TIM HUTCHINSON, [R] Arkansas: Well, I'm very, very concerned about the movement toward the -- the dynamic toward placing ground troops in Kosovo. And I don't believe that is a step the American people I don't believe fully understand the implications of what that will involve, the commitment that it will involve, the length of time that those troops will be there. And we should not take that step without a thorough debate in the United States Congress and an authorization. I would hope the President before taking that step would seek the approval, the authorization, endorsement of the United States Congress, because I think we're looking at 10, 20, 30 years of American troops in the Balkans.

JIM LEHRER: 20, 30 years?

SEN. TIM HUTCHINSON: I think so. And I think after visiting and talking with General Clark, visiting with those who have been involved in Bosnia, that that's exactly what we're looking at. And the American people, we're not looking at ten months. We're looking at ten years or longer. It's a big step, and it should not be taken by the executive branch unilaterally. Congress should play an active role in it. And I'm skeptical whether that's a step we should take.

JIM LEHRER: Do you believe in the overview, though, that the United States and NATO is in it and now they have to stay in it until it is resolved?

SEN. TIM HUTCHINSON: We're -- we've certainly elevated our credibility. The joint chiefs of staff warned the president we might not be able to win this with an air campaign, I think we're seeing some of that warning come to pass after three weeks. But we've put a lot of credibility on the line. But the idea that we're in it, let's win it, I think we need to readdress the wisdom of the policy. And if it is an unwise policy, let's cut our losses at some point instead of out of a sense we must pursue this to the end -- end up in a quagmire that will cost a lot of lives and a lot of money.

JIM LEHRER: A quagmire a possibility here, Senator Lieberman, where do you come down?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN, [D] Connecticut: Well, we're certainly not going to be entered in my opinion for ten or 15 years. I think we're doing the right thing here. I think the President is right. It is America at its best because we are not only doing something that's in our security interests. We're pursuing a principle. We're not going to let a bully, a brutal dictator kill people, force people out of their homes in the center of Europe at the end of the 20th century, and our allies will not do that either. Now, one of the things we found when we visited last week through all the -

JIM LEHRER: You were on this trip with Secretary Cohen.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Yes, yes. One of the things that struck me over there, particularly at Aviano and Ramstein, with our military personnel -

JIM LEHRER: An air base in Italy and an air base in Germany, right?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Right. Was that - you know -- through the, not the fog of war, but the fog of war commentary and war politics, the reality is that our personnel are executing this air campaign with remarkable skill and success. And the equipment that we've invested in, the planes, the missiles are working extraordinarily. We're hurting the Serbs. And of course, the hope here is that if there's any rationality left in the leadership in Belgrade, they will want to stop this wound to their country by withdrawing their forces from Kosovo and allowing the Kosovars to come back. We have a mighty military, and if in the end we have to go in on the ground, which we all hope and pray we will not, to finish this fight and stand for this moral principle, then it's not going to go on for years. We are much stronger than the Serbs. They're not our equal -- if we have the will to fight with them.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Hagel, what about Senator Hutchinson's point, however, that Congress, what you're saying, Senator Hutchinson is Congress should play a role in this and this is a major decision to be made somewhere down the line if it, in fact, becomes necessary to put ground forces in. How do you feel about that?

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL: Well, Congress is a partner here, but we don't nor can we have 535 commanders in chief and secretaries of state, secretaries of defense. No question we have not only constitutional role to play, but it seems to me the President would seek our support, as President Bush did in 1991 during Desert Storm. At the same time, we have to be careful we don't squander some precious time here and give Milosevic the wrong message that we may be divided. We are in this to win. That debate is over, as far as are we committed or not. We're committed. As Senator Hutchinson said, we crossed that line, and we have elevated expectations. We can't lose this. This is not only the credibility of the United States and NATO, but as we move into this next century, other Milosevics, people in Iraq, in North Korea, in other places are watching this very intently to see what the will is of the united states and NATO.

JIM LEHRER: So Senator Hutchinson, if you had the debate that you want, how do you do that without appearing to have a divided Congress?

SEN. TIM HUTCHINSON: Well, I don't know that that you can. The American people are divided and Congress is divided. And simply to say, "Well, let's all keep quiet on our reservations so that we can appear unified," I don't think that's what democracy is all about. And I would say to Joe that my suggestion is not that it will take us ten years to win the military part of this campaign, but the international peacekeeping force that is envisioned would be there indefinitely, something like Korea -- Bosnia has now been three years after the initial one-year projection. So I think the American people need to be faced with those facts. I'm as concerned about the moral imperative of what we're doing as anybody in Congress. All Americans' hearts are wrenched as they look at the terrible scenes. But there's the Sudan. There's Ethiopia. There's Eritrea. There's other places in the world where the tragedies and the carnage is even worse. Where does our moral obligation end? And, thus far, we have not accomplished any of the objectives that were laid out.

JIM LEHRER: So your point -- well, let me ask Senator Wellstone, do you agree with Senator Hutchinson, wherever you come down on the argument that there should be a very vigorous public debate in the Congress right now this week over these kinds of issues?

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: Well, I think there needs to be the discussion. And I think there needs to be the debate. I mean, what I worry about is what do we mean by the definition of win? I mean, it seems to me that we were trying to stop the slaughter of people, and a lot of people, I fear, have lost their lives, have been murdered. And a lot of people have been forced out of their country. Now, as Senator Lieberman says, we want to give people chance to go back. We want this to stop. But it's not just about sort of our winning at any cost. I mean, I think Tim raises a lot of very important questions. NATO hasn't asked for ground troops yet. The President hasn't asked for ground troops yet. And I think there are lots of questions: How many ground troops for how long, with what purpose, and certainly before that kind of decision is made, and I think it's premature to be talking about that now, we should have a very thorough discussion and debate. Senator Hutchinson is absolutely right. And I would echo what Senator Lieberman said. The air strikes, you know, we do need to keep focused on this. And we do need to continue with what our military people tell us what we need to do and again, I think we do need to think about negotiations, as well.

JIM LEHRER: Now, Senator Lieberman, how do we do what Senator Hutchinson wants to do without creating the 535 secretaries of state and defense that Senator Hagel just named?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: Well, it's not going to be easy. That's democracy. I think if we speak this week, we should find a way to speak to the justness of the cause over there, and support of our troops. I don't think --

JIM LEHRER: And stay away from specifics?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: I don't think any of us want to have or I certainly don't feel we need to have this week a debate about whether or not ground forces should be deployed. Nine of us who went on the trip, including Senator Hagel and me, sent a letter to the President asking only that some planning begin in case against all our wishes at the end of the air campaign, weeks maybe months from now, we need to use ground forces. If and when that happens, there surely should be a major debate in Congress, and the President shouldn't and I'm sure wouldn't go ahead unless the representatives of the people in Washington gave their consent and authorization.

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: Can I jump in real quick, please.

JIM LEHRER: Sure.

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: Just very quickly to follow what Joe said. I think this week it is the moral condemnation. All four of us agree about that. What Milosevic has done, what has happened to people, how strongly we feel about it, how strongly our nation feels about it and support for our military. I think we can do that.

JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that Senator Hutchinson?

SEN. TIM HUTCHINSON: I think we can do that. What concerns me is that we do see an incremental escalation in what's going on. And the idea that we might not end up with ground troops apart from that thorough debate I'm not sure it's that certain. We've got the Apache helicopters on their way. And we have seen a gradual, incremental escalation in the bombing campaign. So if we're calling for a contingency for ground troops, at some point we've got to begin that debate in Congress, certainly we can all unify that we are just in our cause and Milosevic should be condemned. The killing must stop. But beyond that, it is appropriate that there be a thorough debate.

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL: That's right.

JIM LEHRER: But would you buy into the idea, don't do anything but keep it general this week?

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: I think this week that's perfectly appropriate.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Hagel, what about Senator Wellstone's point that he's made a couple times, hey, let's don't rule out sitting down at the take and working this out peacefully. What's your reaction to that? Is it too early for that?

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL: Well, always you have that option and you never foreclose that. And I think the President said it again today. We're prepared to do that. Mr. Milosevic must back out of Kosovo his paramilitary thugs and his police and his military. And once that happens, then I think we can start to talk. This guy in October of last year Mr. Milosevic, lied to the world. There was a very thorough story in the "Washington Post" yesterday about the chronology of that. Milosevic fired his intelligence chief, his chief of staff, his army, his minister of defense back in November because they knew what he was up to when he put those 40,000 troops on the border. He was in October at one time saying, "We're going to work out a deal," but knew all along what his objectives were. It wasn't to welcome the bunny rabbit into Kosovo. He knew what his plans were. And so this guy is a guy who started four wars -- you can't trust. And once he backs the thugs out, the killers out, then we can talk.

JIM LEHRER: Have you heard anything, Senator Lieberman, because there were a couple stories this morning in the newspapers that seemed to indicate that our diplomats, our leaders were beginning to hear a little whiff from Belgrade that maybe Milosevic wants to talk. Is that -- is there anything to that?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: I don't know any more than what you've described. But, I'll tell you, from my point of view, we've got to be really careful about this and in responding to those whiffs of an interest in talking in a way that suggests that we're prepared to compromise our principles here. I believe that the best thing for Milosevic would be that he be apprehended and tried as a war criminal, which it seems to me there's ample evidence he is. And the best hope we would have is that somebody under him particularly in the military rise up and throw him out. But we've got some principles here. We can't compromise. The Kosovars have to return to their homes. They have to live in freedom and there has to be some kind of international monitoring or peacekeeping force.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Hutchinson, time to start talking?

SEN. TIM HUTCHINSON: Well, I think we have to -- we've laid down -- we cannot back off of what we said are the conditions. So, in effect, we've said you've got to surrender. The question, is as I look at the options, there is no good option how we get out of this. We've put a lot on the line. It's going to be very costly step as we move ahead.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Wellstone, do you hear something in the wind that might end this thing a little sooner and a little more peacefully than others may think?

SEN. PAUL WELLSTONE: I've tried every day to stay very close to this. I wished I could say so. I can't right now. I have no illusions about Milosevic. I was in Kosovo. Several years ago I met with him the only person I've never shaken hands with. But I just again would say that I believe that we have to continue to think about other actors, whether it be Russian, whether it be the United Nations, whether it be in exchange for conditions that have to be met, a cessation of bombing. We can never rule out moving forward on trying to have some kind of a solution to this because, otherwise, as we look forward to different scenarios, it's all very frightening for the world. I understand that, but I think we have to continue to do both things.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Gentlemen, thank you all four very much.

FOCUS - ON THE MOVE

JIM LEHRER: Again, the refugees: We begin with a report from the Macedonia border by Tim Ewart of Independent Television News.

TIM EWART: At a place called Blazhde in Macedonia, the rows of tents seem to go on forever. This one camp is now home to 30,000 refugees, just part of the 125,000 believed to be in the country. The latest pitiful group appeared on the border with Kosovo today, trying to walk along a railway line. Macedonian policemen sent them back to a checkpoint. A Serb police officer watched as they filled in the necessary forms. There was at least one joyous reunion at this depressing place, and soon afterwards, the first family was allowed across. They're joining relatives in Macedonia and leaving behind the terrors of Kosovo.

MAN: If we come, you have to leave. If we come again, we're going to kill you.

TIM EWART: Did you see them killing anybody?

MAN: I haven't seen, but we have heard that a lot of people are dead. I don't know.

TIM EWART: And are there a lot of people hiding? We've heard reports that many, many thousands of people are hiding.

MAN: Ten of thousands are hiding in the mountains, house to house, you know, running through the night.

TIM EWART: Not all the refugee families are together. On a wall at Blazhde, there are scores of messages from people desperate to trace loved ones now missing. The camp will be home for today's new arrivals until someone decides they must move on again.

JIM LEHRER: Now, two refugees who fled Kosovo two weeks ago and arrived in Washington on Sunday. Phil Ponce talked to them earlier this evening.

PHIL PONCE: With us are Vjosa Dobruna, a physician who ran the Center for Protection of Women and Children in Pristina, and Aferdita Kelmendi, a journalist who was the director of Radio TV 21 in Pristina. They were brought here by the International Crisis Group, a human rights group. Both will be meeting with administration officials this week and are scheduled to testify on Capitol Hill. Ladies, welcome. Dr. Dobruna, when did you know you had to leave Kosovo?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: There were preparations practically being done that -- to leave Kosovo. So many people went in hiding after the police came to our houses and trying to -- trying to arrest practically -- leaders, community leaders, human rights activists, journalists, and people like that, so -

PHIL PONCE: Is that what happened? Is that what happened to you? Did the police come to your door because of your involvement in this human rights group?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: Yes, yes, yes.

PHIL PONCE: And describe what happened.

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: Now, around 1 o'clock at night after the first air strikes happened, they arrested and executed a member of the Council for Defense of Human Rights and Freedom, and with two sons. And then they came house to house to search for activists. So around 3 o'clock the same night, I had to leave my home and to be in hiding, to spend in hiding the next seven days.

PHIL PONCE: And then what happened after those days?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: After seven days, I came back home. I asked some of my cousins to drive me back home to change my clothes and to get something from my apartment, and then police was in front of the door. And there were just -- they had besieged Radio 21, Aferdita's, the very next block of the building. And then they start -- you know, they didn't ask us anything. They just started beating us, and they took the driver from my car.

PHIL PONCE: You personally were beaten?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: Yes. I was beaten on my head, and since I had a baby -I had my sister's son in my hand - so they were not very violent to me. I mean, they were just hitting my head, and same they did to my sister. But they took the driver, my brother-in-law, and they really beat him very severely. And then they were asking for money and jewelry and whatever we had in our pockets. So they took that all, and then they directed us out of the town.

PHIL PONCE: They directed you? What, did you get in a car?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: They allowed us to get in the car, and then they said -- we wanted to go downtown. We couldn't go because there were military and paramilitary in every intersection between two streets. So they were with us. So it was the line of militaries and paramilitaries until the exit of the town when we saw the city of Pristina. When we joined another convoy of cars that were leaving, they were same as we were, forced to leave city of Pristina.

PHIL PONCE: And how long did it take you to get from Pristina to the border, and what happened?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: The border, it takes just usually it takes some 40 minutes, but to the border in the highway Pristina, Skopje to the capital of Macedonia, but that day it took us longer because there were people -- we were seeing people in the road there that were taken out of the convoys, and their cars were taken, and they were plundered, and mistreated, and they were -

PHIL PONCE: And you saw all of this?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: I saw all of that. We saw women that were being stripped in front of us, stripped of their clothes to search for money and jewelry. We saw people being beaten, and then finally we reached the border after an hour and a half, something like that.

PHIL PONCE: And at this point, you're with your sister, your nephew, and a brother-in-law.

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: And my brother-in-law. Meanwhile, we just took several people in our car. So at one moment when we reached the border, we were seven adults and two babies in the car.

PHIL PONCE: And you had to stay in your car?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: Yes, we had to stay in the car next 20 hours, I mean, without going out the door. And then after 20 hours, next day around 6, 7 o'clock in the morning -- I just don't remember very well -- I mean, we were allowed to get out of the car to get some water or something, because majority of the people, they didn't have food or anything or water with us in the cars. I mean, it happened all suddenly. I mean, nobody was prepared to leave the city.

PHIL PONCE: When you left the city, what did you have with you?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: I had my jeans and my T-shirt and a jacket and my handbag.

PHIL PONCE: Did they take your personal documents? There are reports that -

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: No, they didn't take my personal documents, because when I saw that they are taking personal documents from the cars and the people that were checked, I managed to put my documents in the diaper of my nephew, and I did same with my mobile phone, so -

PHIL PONCE: And what was it like at the border? How long did it take you to get through?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: The border was terrible. I mean, at the border, first night it was really terrible. It was dark, and it was restriction, because of the air strikes. And then we were all sitting in the car in silence, and there were some children crying. You could hear children crying. And the woman was delivering the baby just five cars after ours, and we couldn't get out to help her.

PHIL PONCE: She was actually giving birth?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: She was giving birth -- and in the car, and they couldn't go out. And then masked policemen keep on coming to our door, knocking on the glass of the car and then saying, "You know, you have 15 seconds to give $1,000 or $500," depends on the brand of the car we were in.

PHIL PONCE: So did you have to give more money at that point?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: Yes, we had to give more money at that point. And then so - and over and over during the whole night they were going from car to car, beating men and harassing women, humiliating them and then taking whatever we had in our car. And if we had a good jacket, I mean, they will take it. But mostly they were taking money and jewelry and, you know, and beating people.

PHIL PONCE: Mrs. Kelmendi, tell me your story. When did you know you had to leave Pristina?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: I left my flat there together with my family one night before bombing - air strike.

PHIL PONCE: Your husband and your two children?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Yes, my husband, two children, and my mother-in-law. And after that, we go in safer place, because the place where we live, I saw that night very strange people, which don't belong to our neighborhood. And so I was hiding in one other flat, and one neighbor from other neighborhood came and say to me that I have to leave from there because I -- "You are very well-known person, and so we can have trouble."

PHIL PONCE: You're well known because you're a journalist with your station?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Yes, yes. And then I left also that flat, and we went in another flat with hiding ourselves with our friends.

PHIL PONCE: How many nights did you hide? Sorry to interrupt.

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Five nights. And in one flat, we was twenty-one persons, three families together with our children. And for five nights, we -- for five days and nights, we didn't have so much food, so we eat once a day. And we had a lot of water and cigarettes.

PHIL PONCE: Finally you went back to your house, and what happened then?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: No, I didn't go back to my house, but in one moment, I get out, and I went in the direction of my radio. And I -- when I was very near of my radio, I saw that police broke the door, and they enter in about 20 of them. And then I knew it that I have to change again place because -

PHIL PONCE: Police broke into the apartment where you were staying?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: No, no, the radio station.

PHIL PONCE: Oh, the radio station. I see.

AFERDITA KELMENDI: The radio/TV station where I used to work together with my colleagues. And then I knew it that I have to leave together with my family and with my colleagues, because there was all documentation and names and addresses and everything.

PHIL PONCE: How did you leave?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: I wanted to change a place, again, to go in some other place in Pristina to some other our friends. And in a moment when we get in our car, which was -- which I left 200 meters away from the radio, when I get there, when I enter in the car, my family was waiting for me there. And also my friends came there. Then came a car, a big Mercedes, a green one. Two armed people was there, and they says, "You have to follow us." And we asked them, "Where are you sending us?" And they said, "Don't ask so much, because we will burn your car together with you." And so then they said to us that we have to pay 200 Deutsch marks for each person in this car.

PHIL PONCE: So you got into a Mercedes with them or you followed them?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: No, no, we followed them.

PHIL PONCE: Followed them. And where did the car lead you, and what did you see?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Yes. They lead us in an exit of the town, and we had to go after them. And at one checkpoint, they stopped and they talked to about 15 policemen. It seems that they said to them that we have paid. And then after that, after 50 meters, there was another checkpoint in the exit of the town. So then they let us exit the town. We was stopped also twice after that, and we had to pay again to this -- it seems they was paramilitary forces, because they have not uniforms. They was civilians with black caps and very heavy armed.

PHIL PONCE: And you finally got to the border. What happened at the border?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Finally when we got about three kilometers from the border, we -- we slept there for three nights. We didn't have food. We had only water, which we have collected from the near places. And for three nights we didn't eat nothing. And as we also explained, we have pass through all that knocking on the windows and asking for money and taking the cars and et cetera.

PHIL PONCE: Dr. Dobruna, what memory will stay with you from your experience?

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: Oh, humiliation and the fear of those seven nights in hiding, you know. We were just -- we were just listening who is the next one to be found and to be executed and the fear that they are going to recognize you in that queue when we were in the car, and then mistreatment of the rest of us after we were deported to the Macedonian side, when the Macedonian police start hitting deportees that were coming in train. I will never forget those trains where people were loaded like cattle, and they were just being thrown off the train -- old people, young people, women with children, pregnant women. And a lot of people from my town that I knew, many of my patients, young children, they were just being thrown at the railroad, and then they were just being made to sit down in that valley in Blace. And it started raining, very cold rain. And then there was no food. There was no hope -- because everybody thought, "Okay, they deported us, and there is a hope we are going to get back, so we are at least somebody's going to welcome us as a human being."

PHIL PONCE: Mrs. Kelmendi, speaking of going back to Kosovo, do you want to go back to Kosovo?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Definitely.

PHIL PONCE: Why?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Why? That is my place, that is a place where I develop radio station. I have friends. That is my home. So I don't think that there is any other place where I can live.

PHIL PONCE: In spite of everything that happened to you?

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Yes, definitely.

PHIL PONCE: Ladies, I thank you both very much.

AFERDITA KELMENDI: Thank you.

DR. VJOSA DOBRUNA: You're welcome.

FOCUS - SERMONS ON WAR

JIM LEHRER: And now back in this country, how religious leaders in Denver are dealing with the issues raised by the Kosovo crisis. Betty Ann Bowser reports. [Choir singing]

BETTY ANN BOWSER: The religious services were in Denver, but the thoughts were thousands of miles away, in the war zones of Kosovo and Yugoslavia.

SPOKESMAN: To see Orthodox Christians being killed for no other reason than to punish one person, this evening, we have an obligation to pray for them as well as for ourselves.

SPOKESMAN: Today we witness what our government is doing, together with the governments of NATO, and they're doing it because they would like to prevent another Holocaust.

SPOKESMAN: This is our war. Our people are being killed. You know, in the media, they call them ethnic Albanians to hide the fact that they are Muslims. They are Muslims above being ethnic Albanians. The people in Kosovo are Muslims. They're not just ethnic Albanians.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: The bombing attacks on Yugoslavia and Kosovo have been justified by President Clinton and NATO leaders on moral grounds. [Choir singing] But America's religious leaders are not united on the morality of the bombing. Metropolitan Isaiah of the Greek Orthodox Church, which is closely related to the Serbian Orthodox Church, was appalled that the bombing was not suspended over the weekend while the Greek and Serbian orthodox world celebrated their Easter Sunday.

METROPOLITAN ISAIAH, Greek Orthodox Church: I think it's an indictment on how Western Europeans and Americans celebrate Easter. If Easter is the resurrection of Christ from the dead, why are we killing people on this day? It doesn't -- it's ludicrous. It doesn't make sense.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: The Metropolitan says Americans gave up too quickly on diplomacy.

METROPOLITAN ISAIAH: I have to base myself on my religious teachings and principles. When someone asks the Lord Jesus Christ, "How many times should I forgive my brother?," The Lord said 70 and seven times. Now, we know from Holy Scripture that seven symbolizes always, and so when he said 70 and seven, obviously the Lord meant again and again. So I don't believe there should be an end to attempts to resolve problems diplomatically. We are intellectual human beings. Our identity is to converse with one another and try to understand one another, and we're not doing enough of it. [Choir singing]

BETTY ANN BOWSER: At the Macedonia Baptist Church, which has many military families, Reverend Paul Martin feels the war may take a heavy personal toll on his congregation. He's also against the bombing.

REV. PAUL MARTIN, Macedonia Baptist Church: I believe that we must, from a religious vantage point, we are obligated to pursue all methods of peaceful resolution before we take up the sword. As a pastor of a church, I believe that the last possible involvement would be a warring involvement or a military action. I believe that there are many ways to peace, and I believe the killing of people, the bombing of people, is an extremely last -- an extreme last movement. It is radical surgery.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: Still, Martin is troubled by what he sees as ties between the plight of Albanian refugees and American slaves.

REV. PAUL MARTIN: Reminds me of the pain of slavery, where you and I know our own history, the millions of Africans uprooted from their homelands, no more different than the ethnic Albanians.

PERSON IN CONGREGATION: Oh, yes.

REV. PAUL MARTIN: In our own history, this was one of the strong tenets of the slavery movement; very painful to people when they can't find their relatives, they can't find their families. This is a way of breaking down the -- well, I can say the mental and spiritual attitude of people, when you destroy their families.

RABBI STEVEN FOSTER, Temple Emanuel: This ark is to the best of our knowledge the only ark in the western world that has survived the Holocaust.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: This ark at Temple Emanuel is special for congregants, because, Rabbi Steven Foster says, it is the only surviving ark from Nazi-occupied Europe. He said it stands as an eerie reminder of past acts of genocide.

RABBI STEVEN FOSTER: I think Jews understand that we are replaying history. It's not six million. It doesn't matter how many it is. It is the ethnically -- or trying to ethnically cleanse a society of a group of people because of their religion, because of their ethnicity, and that is -- touches real close to home for us. So I don't know of any Jew who wouldn't be supporting what the United States and what NATO is trying to do.

RABBI STEVEN FOSTER: Would that the United States or some power had determined in 1938 or 1939 that Hitler had gone too far, then perhaps the Holocaust might never have occurred.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: The Rabbi says the United States has the right, morally and religiously, to use military force.

RABBI STEVEN FOSTER: In my tradition, at least, when a person is being pursued, you have a right. Yes, you have absolute right to save yourself. From a religious perspective, it is also wrong to brutalize someone or to single them out, because we are all created in God's image. That means the ethnic Albanians are also created -- in my tradition, we would say they are created "bitsalem elohim," "in God's image," and if everyone is created in God's image, then no one has the right to pull them aside, to brutalize them, to kill them, to try to ethnically cleanse any place on earth.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: Metropolitan Isaiah, who is spiritual leader to Greek Orthodox people in 12 states, says ethnic cleansing is morally wrong. But the current struggle in Kosovo is not the first time the region has seen tragedy.

METROPOLITAN ISAIAH: Obviously we have forgotten that there have been tens of thousands of displaced people in the last ten years, and they have been forgotten, because probably someone is temporarily or permanently taking care of them, and now we see there's great tragedy before us, and it looks like ethnic cleansing. Obviously it does. Is it? I don't know. I'm confused. I really don't know. I know that there's been a mass exodus. Some has been voluntary. Probably most of it has been forced. [Speaking Arabic]

BETTY ANN BOWSER: At the Islamic Center in Denver, worshipers were looking not to history, but to the present reality, because Albanians now being forced out of Kosovo are Muslim. A prayer service issued a call to action.

SPOKESMAN: We Muslims should have more of a commitment to defend each other. We Muslims should know that the ethnic Albanians are Muslims like us, and we should be ahead of NATO to fight for the rights of these people, but we're still asleep.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: At Christ Baptist Church, Pastor Kenneth Barnett says Albanian Muslims aren't the only people who have an interest in fighting in Kosovo.

PASTOR KENNETH BARNETT, Christ Baptist Church: In that part of the world, they're still killing each other.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: He says moral countries have no choice but to use force.

PASTOR KENNETH BARNETT: It is the world's business when children and women and freedom is being slaughtered. See, freedom is being slaughtered. Freedom has been paid for from age to age when people were wise enough to say, "Freedom's worth fighting for." We're not fighting for Yugoslavia. We're not fighting against Yugoslavia. Or we're not fighting for those refugees necessarily. We're fighting for freedom. If you don't fight for freedom somewhere, sooner or later you'll fight for freed here.

REV. ELAINE HINNANT, Park Hill Congregational Church: The Bible is often used to justify particular moral stands.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: Since the bombing in the Balkans began, the Reverend Elaine Hinnant, who leads a Bible study class at the Park Hill Congregational Church, has tried to come to terms with violence that has so often taken place throughout the history of Christianity.

REV. ELAINE HINNANT: I'm still struggling with it, because I think for me, part of the Christian -- well, part of -- an aspect of the Christian message is peace, and I tend -- that's what I feel devoted to. And that to me is a piece of the Christian message, and then here we are reliving the Crucifixion. I mean, not reliving it, but telling the story of the Crucifixion and facing good Friday and Jesus hanging on a cross in which it's violent, and that violence is a part of our Christian story, too. And so it made me relook at that piece of it.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: Like many religious followers, Hinnant is praying for a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

REV. ELAINE HINNANT: I so much want resolution without death, and yet I know part of the Christian story is death, and there is resolution. I hate to see the suffering there, and I know that there was suffering prior to NATO. It is a wish, it's hope -- it's a desire -- that we could be in a stance morally where we wouldn't have to use force.

BETTY ANN BOWSER: To that, all the religious leaders we spoke to would say amen, along with the hope that religion itself can help ease the ongoing suffering.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: In the non-Kosovo news of this day, President Clinton was found in civil contempt of court late today by a federal judge in Little Rock. Judge Susan Webber Wright cited his willful failure to obey her orders to testify truthfully in the Paula Jones sexual harassment case. She called his testimony about Monica Lewinsky "false, misleading, and evasive, and designed to obstruct the judicial process." Also in Little Rock today, Susan McDougal was found not guilty today of obstructing the Whitewater inquiry of President and Mrs. Clinton. The judge declared a mistrial on two criminal contempt charges; also for refusing to testify before Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's grand jury in 1996 and 1998. McDougal and her late husband, Jim, were business partners of the Clintons in an Arkansas land deal. She and her attorney spoke to reporters.

SUSAN McDOUGAL: I am still a little numb. It's been a long time. I've been indicted since 1993. And this is the first day that I haven't been indicted in years. So I am a little numb from it. I don't know what else to do but be a defendant.

MARK GERAGOS, McDougal's Lawyer: That's okay. We'll put her to work.

REPORTER: What if they were to decide they wanted to retry you?

MARK GERAGOS: I can only hope they retry this. I would like nothing better than to come down here and try Ken Starr again. There's nothing I would like better to do.

JIM LEHRER: The prosecutor said a retrial remained an option, and he had these words from Independent Counsel Starr.

MARK BARRETT, Prosecutor: He respects, as we respect, the verdict of the jury on that. That's part of our system. That in a sense is what our system, and these are words from Judge Starr, that's what our system's all about. We bring it to the grand jury; if the grand jury finds there's probable cause, they issue an indictment. And if an indictment is issued, the defendant stands trial. That's what took place today. There's a vindication of the system -- even in an acquittal, even in a position that we as prosecutors were arguing the other view should be the appropriate one.

JIM LEHRER: On Wall Street, the Dow Jones Industrial Average hit another new high, closing up 166 points, at 10,340. The 1999 Pulitzer Prizes were announced today by Columbia University. Journalism awards went to the "Wall Street Journal" and the "New York Times," among others. "Times" columnist Maureen Dowd won for her commentaries on President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. In the arts, the winners were Michael Cunningham for his novel "The Hours," and Margaret Edson for her play "Wit"; Mark Strand for poetry; John McPhee for nonfiction; A. Scott Berg for biography; Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace for history; and in music, Melinda Wagner for her concerto for flute, strings, and percussion.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: And to recap our major story of the day, the war over Kosovo, now in its 20th day; NATO foreign ministers met in Brussels in a show of solidarity. NATO planes struck Serbia overnight, and Serbian television claimed a passenger train was hit, killing at least nine people, wounding sixteen others. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.