The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; State of Black America

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. One of the nation's leading black organizations, the Urban League, today charged the Reagan administration with isolating itself to an alarming degree from black Americans. In its seventh annual "State of Black America" report the League said, "At no point in recent memory had the distance between the national government and black America been greater than it was in 1981. Nor had the relationship been more strained." In their introduction to the report, outgoing League President Vernon Jordan and his successor, John Jacob, said that throughout black America in 1981 there was a broad feeling of isolation or a turning back of the clock, of a retreat from civil rights policies and social service programsestablished by years of struggle and a bipartisan consensus. The report called on the administration for sweeping changes in its economic programs and attitudes to civil rights. Tonight, with the new president of the Urban League, the state of black America. We asked White House officials to appear this evening, but none was available. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, this is the 18th day in office for John Jacob as president of the Urban League. He took over the job -- one of the most prominent and visible in the American civil rights movement -- on January 1st from Vernon Jordan. Mr. Jacob did not come to the task a household name as did Jordan or his predecessor, the late Whitney Young. But he said in a December press conference, when his selection was announced, "Given a little time, I will be known by the nation." He came to the presidency from within the professional ranks of the Urban League, having worked for the League in Washington and San Diego, among other places, for 17 years. He was the number-two man, the executive vice president, when chosen to succeed Jordan. Mr. Jacob, welcome.

JOHN JACOB: Thank you.

LEHRER: There are strong words in your report today, particularly the charge of retreat on civil rights. In general terms, how serious is this retreat as you see it?

Mr. JACOB: I consider it to be very serious. When you look at the kinds of things that are taking place -- the position of this administration on the Voting Rights Act, the position of this administration on school desegregation, and most recently the position of this administration on tax exemption for organizations, for institutions, that knowingly discriminate against black people -- it is very clear that the action of this administration has in fact begun to turn the clock back as it relates to affirmative action, civil rights and black people in this country.

LEHRER: Do you think it's the result of a deliberate decision, a deliberate policy decision by the President and his people?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I don't think it's a -- it may not necessarily be deliberate, but I have to deal with the facts. And the facts have been that they have had a negative impact on black people or minority people in this country. And so I am not at this juncture concerned about whether or not it is deliberate; I am concerned about that it is taking place and that it is taking place in a negative way on black people in this country.

LEHRER: You mentioned the flap over the tax-exempt status for schools with discriminatory policies. What do you think the administration was up to on that? I mean, what do you think they were trying to accomplish?

Mr. JACOB: Well, it just so happened that I was at the White House today following the release of this report, and while I went just to meet with Mrs. Dole, I ended up having --

LEHRER: Mrs. Elizabeth Dole, who is a top White House aide, right.

Mr. JACOB: That's correct. I ended up spending a little time with the President. And I had said to Mrs. Dole prior to meeting with the President that we were disturbed about this position, that we thought that it was a very serious error on the part of this administration, that we were concerned that it would send a message to those persons in this country who believe in racism, who believe in discrimination, and that would be a key for them that it was all right. I ended up in the Oval Office with the President, and mentioned it to the President. The President attempted to explain it to me --

LEHRER: What did he say?

Mr. JACOB: The President said that it was never his intention for this to take place this way, that he had become concerned about the number of complaints that he was receiving from educational institutions where IRS agents were in fact placing demands upon those institutions on how they ought to deal with the implementation of this piece of legislation. The President therefore felt that he had to do something about it, and said he mentioned it to the Secretary of Treasury as a concern and something that ought to be addressed. And the next thing he knew, this action had taken place. To which I responded to the President the same thing that I said to Mrs. Dole, that it concerned us greatly and while I was not concerned about motives, I was concerned about the interpretation that would be placed on those motives and the signal that it would send to the broader American public that discrimination is all right in America. To which the President responded by saying that he really had planned to have done it differently.

He admitted that it was done mistakenly the way it was done, and that he wished he had put the legislation in first to the Congress before they took action on it, and that it simply had come as a suggestion to the Secretary of Treasury. To which I responded that that is the first lesson, I guess, in presidential powers: if you should suggest something to one of your subordinates, they're going to try to put it in place and therefore we have to be concerned about how those suggestions take place.

LEHRER: Does that make it a dead issue for you now?

Mr. JACOB: Well, it will not become a dead issue until the legislation has been passed, and this administration has put some enforcement around the carrying out of that piece of legislation. So it's not dead.

LEHRER: This is legislation -- in case people are not following us here -- this would be legislation that would make law what is now an IRS policy, or was an IRS policy until last week or two weeks ago when the President reversed the policy, right?

Mr. JACOB: It would make it law. But I said to the President that we were not concerned about it having to go to the Congress because it had been tested in the courts and the Fourth Circuit had ruled in favor of this policy. It had been tested with the Supreme Court and they had supported this policy.And therefore we were not concerned about whether or not it could be done or whether or not it were legal, but that, inasmuch as he has taken this step and he has pushed it through in terms of a piece of legislation to be enacted by Congress, we will be satisfied at the point that it has been put in place and sanctions have been put in place for those who violate it.

LEHRER: And what did he say?

Mr. JACOB: He agreed. He agrees with that.

LEHRER: I'm curious about how the meeting with the President came about. Was this a long-scheduled thing or was it a direct result of your scathing report today?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I do not know. I would like to believe that it was because it was learned that I was in the White House and the President had not had the opportunity to meet me, and since he found out that I was in the White House and he had dropped me a note when I got the appointment, I suspect he took it upon himself to say hello.

LEHRER: Well, what about the meeting at the White House itself? Going over to talk to Mrs. Dole?

Mr. JACOB: That was the meeting initiated by Mrs. Dole, initiated, I guess as a result of my appointment and the fact that we had not met and she felt that it was appropriate that we ought to get together and get to know each other. And it was a very interesting meeting and a very congenial meeting with us both agreeing that we agree to disagree on issues that we could not come to grips with, and that they have a responsibility and I certainly have a responsibility to express the opinions and feelings and attitudes of our constituency, even when it is contrary to administration policy.

LEHRER: Did you really lay it on them? I mean, did you say, eyeball-to-eyeball, "Hey, look," -- what you said in the report, that black America is alienated from this administration, there's a bigger gap between this administration and black America than at any time in recent history, and that sort of thing?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I cannot say that it was that kind of meeting. What I can say is that we delivered the report to them, and we said to -- as I said to Mrs. Dole, "I would invite you to read the report because I think the report has some cogent information for this administration. I think the report will help this administration in its policy formulation, in the implementation of its policy, and this report will help this administration to understand better where black people are on the issues and concerns." And I pointed out to her some pieces that were included in the report, including a piece on the black conservative that would show where black people fall along the continuum from liberal to conservative, and would show that black leadership, in terms of the civil rights movement, is in fact reflecting the attitudes, opinions, feelings of black people in this country.

LEHRER: Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: There is a note of bitterness or anger in the report. I know you say you're just presenting the facts, but there is very strong language used, and I wonder if your meeting today at the White House and the attitudes of the President and White House official dispelled that feeling of bitterness, particularly about issues like the rate of black unemployment at the moment, Mr. Jacob?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I'm not sure that it dispelled that feeling or not. It was not my --

MacNEIL: Wouldn't you know whether it dispelled your feeling or not?

Mr. JACOB: Well, you know, they had not seen the report.

MacNEIL: Oh, I see.

Mr. JACOB: So they have not had an opportunity to review the report and, in all fairness, I would think that we will have a better knowledge of where they come down on that because I will be meeting with the President formally. We have a formal appointment to meet somewhere toward the end of this month. I suspect at that time I will get the reaction that the President and this administration have toward the report and the language in the report.

MacNEIL: Well, let's go to some of that. You point out in the report that black unemployment by the end of 1981 was at a record 15.5% -- that it had touched, last summer, 45% for black teenagers, and that during the year 1981 at some time a quarter of all black workers were out of work.Now, what do you see as the cause of that?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I think much of it can be placed at the doorsteps of this administration. What you have to recognize is that if you look further in that report you will see that a significant number of black people work in public service -- work for the government. I think the number is something like 56% of all adult black male college graduates are employed in the public sector. Seventy-two percent of black female college graduates are employed in the public sector. So even if we just began with the black middle class, it is reasonable to assume that a significant number of those persons are being terminated when you look at the cutbacks of this administration in the Department of Health and Human Services, in Community Services Administration, where 60% of the employees in that agency were black. And so it is reasonable to assume, beginning with the black middle class, that a significant contribution to unemployment can be placed at this administration's doorstep. Secondly, if you look at the cuts that have taken place in this administration, that range all the way from the social programs like welfare and food stamps, etc., to the public service jobs where a large number of black people, minority people were involved, it is very clear that they have made a significant contribution to contributing to the high unemployment rate in this country.

And so it is fair to say that we place first and foremost the burden of this issue at the doorstep of the White House.

MacNEIL: In other words, if they're cutting the government sector, because blacks are disproportionately represented there, they're going to hurt disproportionately when the cuts come.

Mr. JACOB: Absolutely.

macNEIL: Now, what do you think should be done about that?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I think, first of all, the President ought to understand that and do what he said, that he would not balance the budget of the country on the backs of poor people. And hopefully we could translate that further -- "on the backs of black people" -- and that this administration would understand that what is being done will disproportionately fall upon black people, and ought to reconsider some of the cuts that they are contemplating and carrying out in this administration. I believe it is good for this country to retain many of the programs that they are cutting.I believe that the programs that they are cutting will only exacerbate the problems of poor people, of black people, and much of the servicing of that population was being done by the black people that are being eliminated by this process. And therefore I believe they ought to reconsider that.

MacNEIL: Well, are you arguing that black people should not be let go when whites or people of other race are --

Mr. JACOB: Not at all.

MacNEIL: -- when government-sector jobs are cut, or that jobs should be maintained or created for black people when they aren't for the others because they suffer disproportionately?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I'm saying --

MacNEIL: A kind of affirmative action in reverse?

Mr. JACOB: Well, no. I'm saying two things. I'm saying that it is unnecessary for them to cut the programs, first of all, in the way that they are doing it in the large cutting process that they're engaged in, and therefore white people would benefit from that process also. I'm saying that the programs of welfare, the programs of food stamps, the programs of Medicare, the programs of public service employment is critical to the survival of this nation. And therefore they ought to reconsider how they are addressing that problem, and by doing so they would benefit those people who are being displaced, which includes a disproportionate number of black people.

MacNEIL: Do you believe, touching back on something Jim was asking you -- do you believe that the Reagan administration is being particularly callous or indifferent to the way blacks are touched by its economic program?

Mr. JACOB: I do not believe that we were considered in the process. I think that we have been ignored in the process. And I think what that comes down to is a kind of insensitivity to how you be president of all of the people and how you implement policies that address the needs and concerns of all of the people. And while I would not suggest that someone is lying awake at night preparing a strategy to do harm to black people, I do suggest that what is taking place is doing harm to black people.

MacNEIL: Because the President is insensitive to black people? Is that what you're saying?

Mr. JACOB: Because this administration is insensitive to black people. But we hope to sensitize them to our existence and to our needs. And we think that this report is a first step in doing that.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Robin mentioned affirmative action. Is that an area where you believe the administration is trying to turn back the clock?

Mr. JACOB: I believe the actions of this administration have, in effect, given us that impression. If you look at the whole notion of voting rights, for instance -- a piece of legislation that in fact moved this country in terms of black people to new heights. The fact that the President has equivocated on it, has not moved the legislation even though the House has passed the legislation, is a clear signal to us that the President does not clearly either understand or does not want to move this piece of legislation to keep the power of the ballot in the black community as it presently exists.

LEHRER: What about affirmative action in employment areas?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I think that the action of the Justice Department to try to get a reversal on Weber --

LEHRER: That's the Weber case -- Supreme Court case.

Mr. JACOB: That is the Weber case that the Supreme Court has ruled on and that said it is all right for companies to engage in voluntary affirmative action programs in promotion and hiring and training.I think the action of the Justice Department to turn that around is in fact -- certainly, the effect is a turning back of the clock. That is a case that has been argued. That is a case that has been decided. That is a case that we thought we had resolved. Now this administration seems to be going through the books looking at what I would consider to be secondary issues -- issues that we have already won -- and we've given new birth to those issues to occupy our time and energies.

LEHRER: Is there still justification for special or preferential treatment for blacks in the employment area?

Mr. JACOB: That is a very interesting question, but I think it is one that ought to be asked because it needs to be answered. What we need to understand in America is that what has happened in terms of progress in the whole area of equal opportunity has come in the last 20 years. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 took place in my lifetime. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 took place in my lifetime. The Housing Act of 1968 took place just some 13 years ago. Now, it has not been that long ago that this country knowingly and callously discriminated against black people. It is ludicrous, then, in 1982 to simply act as if this country has always dealt fairly, has always dealt with justice in their dealing with black people and minority people in this country. It has not.It has been in very recent years that it has taken steps to put this country right in terms of its creed, in terms of where it says it wants to go.

And so the answer to your question is that, yes, that is very much needed today; and if you look at the numbers that this report brings out -- the high unemployment rate -- unemployment at the end of this year was 22% for black people. Of the 13 million black people that were a part of the work force, two million people were unemployed. That is two million people of the nine million people for the whole nation among all people who are unemployed. And so it is of critical importance that the country understand that, yes, all of those acts, all of those actions are needed right now in order to get black people equal in a society in which equality is the code word for this nation.

LEHRER: As you know, the administration has indicated that the best way to get compliance in terms of equal opportunity for blacks within the work place is to do it in a voluntary way rather than force it. You just don't think that holds water?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I don't think that it will address the problem. If you look at the numbers, again, the proposal of a couple months ago by one of America's corporate leaders that the private corporate sector add 1% of pre-tax monies to personnel costs for the purpose of providing training and entry-level jobs -- which would be a significant move for corporate America -- but even that move would create 160,000 new jobs. Now, I'm talking about right now unemployment of two million black people in this country. And so I think it is important and it is a supplement. It cannot be a replacement, given the plight of black people in this country today.

LEHRER: Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Mr. Jacob, you told our reporter, Gordon Earle, in preparation for this program that these budget cuts had created a vicious climate in the black community. What did that mean?

Mr. JACOB: Well, what it really means is that black people are really hurting. What it really means is that, on a day when the temperature is five below, there are some black people who are not only not eating, but there are some black people who do not have the monies to buy heat because of the cuts that have taken place in what we would consider to be basic survival programs. I would suggest that if you take that further, to what is happening not only to black people, but to the broader American public -- the layoffs that have taken place in private industry, the new unemployed, I would classify them, of white people who have never been unemployed before -- what is happening is that there is a notion that anything you do for black people now you are taking something away from white people. And so what that is doing is creating a climate of negativism, a nastiness in this country of race toward race because we are now into the zero-sum game where you cannot do something for an oppressed, for a disadvantaged population without having some negative impact on the broader population. And I just think that that is creating a climate that is very detrimental to the growth of this country.

MacNEIL: You ask for a great many things at the end of this report -- or you recommend a great many things. Adding them all up it seemed to me that what you're really asking President Reagan to do is to reverse the whole thrust of his economic program. Would that be fair to say that?

Mr. JACOB: Well, well, I would think that that wouldn't be the worst thing the President could do. I think it would be good for the country; I think it would be good for poor people, good for disadvantaged people. I am not so naive, however, as to think that that is going to happen. I do believe that it would be wise on the part of this administration to carefully review those recommendations and to certainly accept those that to them make sense and, where they do not make sense, to give us an alternative strategy. I believe that this country will only grow -- this country will only improve to the degree that it deals with the plight of the least among us, which at this point in our history happens to be black people -- minority people and poor people.

MacNEIL: Can black Americans, given the amount of political clout that you have, do anything about this for yourselves and by yourselves, or do you have to work through the traditional Democratic coalition and engage the sympathy and support of other groups who also may be feeling the effects of these programs before you can really do anything about it?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I think it is important to say that there are some things that black people have to do for ourselves. I want to say, on the other hand, that it is important to build coalitions with other groups to do things, but there are clearly some things that we can do for ourselves. I would suggest to you one of those things is to register in greater numbers to vote, and to get out and vote.

I think to the degree that we do that -- and one of the papers in this document speaks to increasing the political risk of those candidates -- I think that is very critical and a very cogent message to black people. And we have seen in 1981 where we have been able to make a difference when we turned out in large numbers, where we were registered, where we voted. Miami, we made a difference. Houston, we made a difference. The Virginia gubernatorial race, we made a difference. I think it is important for black people to send a message in the 1982 congressional election to this administration that we will increase your political risk based upon how you deal with our needs, how you deal with our vested interest. And to the degree that you do that, we will be -- if you are positive, we will be supportive.If you are not, we will have to do something about that also. And so, yes, there are things that black people can do and the black community ought to do.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Of course, blacks did not make much of a difference in the election that most affected Ronald Reagan. Only 7%, as I understand it -- or only 7% of the blacks who voted, voted for Ronald Reagan in that presidential election. And some would suggest, "Why in the world should he listen to you all? You all were on the other side."

Mr. JACOB: Well, we thought about that and we happen to believe that he has to be the president of all the people, not just those people who elected him, first of all, and so regardless to where we voted, it is an obligation of the President to service and to promote the general welfare for all people. Secondly, we will vote again in 1984, and that my suspicion is that the express train that we saw in 1980 will not be repeated again anytime soon. And the next election, given what is happening not only to black people, but what is happening to this country -- the layoffs that are taking place that are impacting not just on black people but on this country generally -- will suggest that there will be some rethinking in this country as to how the votes will be cast, and I think we will be an important vote in the 1984 election and therefore some attention ought to be paid to us.

LEHRER: I noticed a recent poll of American blacks said that by a three-to-one margin blacks in this country feel they are better off today than they were 10 years ago. How does what you've been telling us the last 25 minutes or so jibe with that?

Mr. JACOB: Well, I think that you have to tell me the date of the poll because I will tell you as of today there are a lot of black people who do not feel that they are better off. Now, obviously, 10 years ago -- we would be talking about 1971 -- and I do not want to suggest that we have not had some improvements. We obviously had. Much of those improvements, however, were created by public-sector employment. Much of those improvements were created by social programs that placed black people into positions of middle income. Those programs no longer exist. Those programs are being eliminated daily. Those public-sector jobs are being done away with.And so I would say to you that what may have been valid at the time that the poll was taken is no longer valid, and there is a decrease in the improvement of conditions of black people in this country.

LEHRER: It has also been suggested, Mr. Jacob, that leaders like you are out of sync with the rank and file blacks in this country. That many blacks have turned conservative along with many whites; that they believe in the President's basic idea that the way to do it is not through government but through private means, and that you folks are out of sync.

Mr. JACOB: Well, I invite you to read the paper that was done by Dr. Charles V. Hamilton on the black conservative. Because one of the things that Chuck Hamilton does is to not only define in operational terms conservatism and liberalism, but he takes empirical data to show where black people fall along the continuum from liberalism to conservatism. And I'm happy to report that that information revealed that black leadership in the civil rights community is in fact expressing and reflecting the views of the masses of black people; that black people do not fall into the category of being opposed to social programs. They do not fall in a category of being conservative on economic issues. As a matter of fact, they're very liberal on economic issues; and on social issues they tend to be, on some issues, not too different from some of their white counterparts, but by and large they fall along the continuum less conservative than white people. And certainly on issues of civil rights and affirmative action they tend still to be in the not too conservative camp, and tend to reflect the views that we are presenting as civil rights leadership.

LEHRER: So you feel that what you have told us tonight truly does represent the way the majority of the blacks in this country feel?

Mr. JACOB: I absolutely believe that and I also would hasten to add that I believe that we're expressing some of the views of white America who feel that too much cutting has gone on in terms of dealing with the needs of poor people and disadvantaged people in this country.

LEHRER: Thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: We have to leave it there, Mr. Jacob. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: That's all for tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.