The Robert MacNeil Report

eighteen years we can leading democratic members of the house of representatives met today to consider whether to force representative wayne hayes out of his powerful position as chairman of the administration committee but they adjourned after voting to delay any action for a week congressman shays is still in an ohio hospital recovering from an overdose of sleeping pills taken fallen disclosure of a sexual relationship with elizabeth ray who claimed she was paid as a staff member only for that purpose attorney general edward levi said today that the justice department is investigating the haze re

relationship to see it was a misuse of public funds have been violated another woman colleen gardner has given federal investigators and the press tape recordings she claims pertaining to other sexual activities on capitol hill involving her former boss congressman john young of texas all this attention tomorrow's in congress comes at a bad time for the democrats faced not only with reelection in an anti washington years it's been called a cut in the throes of picking new leaders who will set the tone for years to come speaker carl albert is resigning and majority leader tip o'neill appears likely to succeed him that is opened up a vigorous trouble for his job and whoever gets it will have to confront rising demands for reform not only of congressional morals but its political habits three of the four major contenders for that house majority leader's job are with us tonight john jemmott fall of california richard bowling of missouri and jim wright of texas the fourth or burden of california chairman of the house democratic caucus could not be witnessed going

alphabetically the us beginning with you congressman bowling you've been here the longest since nineteen forty eight and the written two books on the congressional system and this need for reform and my question is this it's being suggested now that the congress as well as bad broad brush paint that it's getting as a result of the sex abuse of power scandals because you folks operate a system out there that not only failed to prove that and guard against things like this but actually fosters or encourages it do you agree with that god on every word we have a system that is not perfect by any means and i've been trying for some years to get changed in a variety of ways i think we have a problem of self discipline i think we have a problem of managing our own affairs better but a whole range of ways not only the problem of seeing to it that payrolls are used properly we also the problem of doing the public's business effectively we haven't been as effective as we should've that we tried a variety of a soul great many others do to change it and weep one summer will also done pretty well a budget

actor which i had the privilege of a floor manager and that in that same congress i lost a very important to him to reorganize the jurisdiction of committees are great many democrats voted against it and as a result of that we weren't able to do anything effective in this congress on energy they're a great many things that we need to do and one of them is the tide not our own internal housekeeping well that that course is what would do this whole scandal is about one way or another and people are asking questions like why did it take sax and elizabeth ray to running to public light the alleged abuse of power that say when aids as an actress i wonder a problem at home i wasn't faced earlier by some others and in the democratic caucus i can get along with others to depose chairman is from his position on the kinetic we lost in the democratic caucus i think a very very bad luck that we did only for democrats is that congress will is that a fault my

question really is is that if all of the system or was that of all the people who voted in ca i'm trying to get at is there something wrong in that system out there is something wrong in the system but it doesn't encourage and i think there was something wrong and the perceptions of the great many people who voted on that matter as to what is was like and what was happening in the house administration committee most congressmen are decent most congressmen are honest most congressmen use of public money the way it should be but there are some that use it as a vehicle to get our and clearly mr hayes did bad and so it was understood earlier than others there's nothing then an inherent in the system an asteroid and just change that word encourages them to say oh al's that kind of thing that you know it has to happen because people let it happen in some states have been made and some corrections have been suggested that were taking of the suggestions were taken by david broder said unwashed impulse this morning at the sex scandals

are tangential and trivial compared to the real abuse of power on capitol hill do you agree with that oh i happen to agree with that because what i think is wrong with the with the system that needs to be corrected is a two makeup people concentrate on their own power at the expense of the public we'll one of the reasons that we were more successful in changing the jurisdiction of the committees to our rational more rational approach is that people sort of naturally decide that it's important that they keep their own particular jurisdiction we had great difficulty with democratic members who have positions that are useful to them politically and useful to them in a first was giving up their particular advantage in the interest of having a better operations that's what made the fundamental problem and a plan to reorganize the committee system obviously there were some other reasons people disagreed with our particular set of proposals and make cases for their particular view of that we were wrong in this and wrong that but the thing that was sort of shocking was that the alternative that as the socal henson

substitute did not deal with any of the real problems confronted the institution with regard to jurisdiction was leaving was totally incapable of dealing with energy and a whole range of other things because we simply not organized to deal with the major problems of the seventies yes let's talk now to congressman john mcfaul also of california who is the majority whip appointed by the president a democratic house leadership the reason why do you think it took elizabeth graham all her revelations to focus a spotlight on leicester were in his behavior as chairman of the house administration committee what it brought to light a number of problems there wayne days is it accepted by the members of the house of the houses run on trust week we respect each other we

expect that the members of the committee and members of the house are going to do the job it's a sign of them and i think that this incident with i was with ray has shown that there are some loose procedures in the committee have those procedures that i think and can be quickly tightened up fact is the day i expect that they'll be a report of the year a committee of the steering committee by next week i expect that mr hayes will probably resign by next week that's the word and its friends have urged him to resign i expect him to resign probably the caucus next week would take action the two i remove him from his committee chairmanship like spy would expect that he would be stepped up were you one of those during the caucus when disappointing mr heys before came up the one that just been referred to our we one of those who supported leaving him in the present in his first job

arnold have both ways now that puts me on both sides of the question i suppose i dont think we were disappointing mr hayes at that time that question as to which were which was the better man to have as the chairman of the committee mr thompson or mr hayes that was in the question of discipline and the question of which were the better of the two i voted in the end the years as wayne knows who has the jobs of those i voted in the steering committee for most part later on on the floor i voted for us then the second time i voted for mr hayes on his appeal i know cardio cardio believe as sir your colleague congressman ball and evidently does that sum rather substantial house cleaning cleaning in terms of systems is necessary in the house of representatives well i think the problem that we have right now is house administration and i think we will have

recommendations the preliminary recommendations as of next week as to what we can do that one very simple thing the budget of the committee it can be yeah and be approved by the house is not know for its products of the year our expenditures of that committee head of the gao is conducting an audit right now they've always for the last ten years they've been auditing all the expenditures of that committee and i believe with a new chairman india in the committee with the bipartisan action in the committee republicans have been complaining that this has been a democratic show up to now with a new world with a new chairman and some recommendations from the steering committee i believe that committee can take the action necessary to clean up what are my colleagues agree with me or not but i do i

think that that can be accomplished next is to my house member from texas since nineteen fifty four currently a deputy whip allow some about to become chairman of the house public works committee congressman how do you see the majority leader whether it's you're in one of these other donor mr birkner whoever it you see the majority are playing a role and squirrel away that's whatever needs to be squared away in effect cleaning up its own hands and the majority leader can play a very important role gollum and somewhat more profound ways than had been anticipated here i don't think any majority leader had set himself up as the stern disciplinarian other non really candid interview on air because that would be the first to vote quite aragon on his part quite presumptuous on his part and surely it would be rightly resented but other members who have the same identical credentials election to congress the perceptions that he can influence very profoundly in other

ways it seems to me that a majority leader there's a sort of a tripartite personality first of all is an innovator he's got to make an initiative has got to be somebody who has the vision to reach out and see these major programs and projects that i'm going to get rich secondly i think he's a conciliator you've got to be an advisor accounts for a harmonized and this role he talks with individual members he's covered that much listening as he does talk finally i think american leaders that advocate is spokesman for the for the candidates for the democratic majority first and then for the plan which is got to articulate views broad goals and dreams in such a way as to be appealing to a majority of the membership and then beyond there people the united states that seems to me the majority leader not only

about suppressing the bed or correcting that by doing that but more broadly than that by accentuating the and an enormous amount to improve not only the image of a substance you make it sound like dr john actually it actually legal oh for four hundred and thirty four other members of the example the inspiration education and painful irony is one on one confrontation announced new analytic and i'm not sure that the people that i'm not sure anybody is it has to be the most frustrating job in the world but at the same time i think the most fascinating job in the government because of the enormous challenges that it presents less heterogeneous my hands up opinionated individualists minimal certain purity and in the script it and try to wail them together to do what is in the

public interest that boeing said the curtains and a manly them to do what has to be done on and it was a more important factor well its openness openness question congressman boehner how do you feel about how does the house majority leader function how busy exercise leadership role as the party leader but presumably and i as far as i know always use a person who's concerned about what should be done in the country he has relationships with members justice jim wright had said he has a relationship with a speaker which is very important is a relationship with the president regardless of whether he's the majority of the minority party primarily is a leader not a be an innovator he ought to be a person who was able to conceptualize the kind of program that can pass the congress that will solve the problems that he and his colleagues anticipate yun i have the courage to throw that concept up first before the party members met them improve it modify and change it been turned into a

major program which goes to a legislative committee where he's worked on in detail we ought to have a product that is the result of anticipating a problem and then dealing with it with with some just plain rock courage have to take chances to be affected majority leader we have to have a good relationship with the speaker not have a good relationship with a member that you have to have the willingness to get out front let's let's talk about technique technique of leadership congressman mcfaul it's been suggested third recent days that maybe the time has come to go back to the reverend johnson days in the converse all threw joan were there during those times and that was the other was tough leadership part of the point that jim wright made a moment ago there was no there was never any doubt as to who was speaking for the congress it was semi remote was lyndon johnson and they they employ a lot of techniques a double twisting one on one confrontation as you said or whatever you know they were tough people babies that's there and that you feel at the time his

comfort for that kind of leadership for a softer approach it feel about well i suppose is certainly afoot grown up about this forever no no mr johnson mr johnson certainly as president was a man who pushed very hard for his programs mr rayburn you see you have a job of a kind going with john garner john garners it wasn't hard not only leverage enough to tell him what to do well i used to say that this is a different kind of member and i was that you this is a different kind of member now oh and i agree with the right you've got to have permits you've got to have imagination you've got to have a policy you got to push it which are not gonna be twisting arms and forcing people to do something that they don't want to do and so as if you are they are the politician comes in to get them move along together to accomplish the objective of the democratic party well the dirty

city are the politicians know one of the things that is part and parcel of been a politician of any legislative body has made deals are good for your bill if you vote for my bill and that kind of thing is that was that part of being a leader is deployed to know that i think that's that's overrated and making deals i found in an injury can be i think there's a certain love is yours at the get compromises that's the art of compromise our politics but you also have to have the imagination and you have to have a baby bill it will meet the needs of the democratic party and convince the members that that's what they ought to be for anything about the technique question to go well i work and i was trying my most reverend and violinist reverend every technique that was used to come down to rome where i talked to people after sessions and first thing he'd say was another topic that i noticed that he always would you know i'm paid a problem

he knew that you had to make tough decisions as a leader you don't make them too so there you were in trouble even making too late when he made them he moved on used everything it had his command always persuasion and everything else and all his nerve to get the family he worked in the committees he worked with individuals he worked in the structure of the leadership structure any poured everything he had into the implementation of that decision and it was a constant act encouraging will now he made it work without any more problem but is that sense he had the power of personal relations over many years that he believed in the country believed in the converse and he knew he had a responsibility to lead and it was more will it was anything else will i don't think though that anybody could lead to day and quite the same sentence recommended he was a way to get to that house and

very much a present waiting for the shortage sam rayburn did what he did that ad against then convert that personality and led them to return to an uncanny knowledge of them will hash out or they'd go baby that was born of long experience i do not think that we have the same situation today though is that fall says it's a different world different day it's a much more or to submit to read body today and most romans day we didn't have any steering and policy committee he watch oral history policy committee member didn't feel that he was and how albert instituted a new twist and every new member to at least one major committee and i think this is good we've democratize our procedures we have opened them up to public inspection as never before and i think we've done some good things

to improve the relationships of congress these are the the executive branch we've done some things to strengthen that that morning mentioned the reform of the budget procedure in what credit for that was one of nick's ryan chairman i have the privilege of serving now on the budget committee and i think we've begun to do some of those positive and constructive which you've given average are going to buy this out all right great until this question of public coplen says resolve his resolve all of this that's going on or have trouble doing all those are yes you know again there always is going to be somebody who's in the congress always has been available on cars is much more serious than just routine purchases so don't give yourself i can decide to chapter in we're somewhat whitman said in nineteen sixty five and nineteen seventy one nineteen seventy three and this is always underneath that oceans

the days of a lexus and he concluded that the problem of our poverty of talent was that they were directly elected but the people that was what role will wear frail martin fallible but the system i think basically worked well let's take up congressman howard works as you suggested is that the executive branch you thought there'd been a bit of an improvement there but the devil's advocate position doesn't it argue a major failing and the democratic leadership in the last session in ohio but so many of the shows by an opposition president a republican president have not been overridden that have been sustained lawmakers on the ladder for a delighted when eunice has to know that a greater percentage i'll vote for vetoes have been overridden than any and in the last one hundred years back to and including ulysses grant the number of egos is so

extraordinary that the number that we're sustaining as surely been very much larger than usual well we have a veto prong has and it has in the short sharp less than two years that you served vetoed more frequently than any other president in the post war period we have overridden more vetoes of years than we have of any other president with the exception of to one of the main franklin roosevelt we know the congress overrode nine veto the roosevelt and twelve years we've made of president ford's in less than three years i don't think that's too bad record beatles were not supposed to be easily overwritten the constitution captors didn't intend that they be overridden at the whim of congress but neither did they in the end though the congress that a president with arabic to himself the writer dick take the precise terms of legislation by overusing that the cold mountain road and they on the federalist papers that the veto was an instrument to be

rarely resort to two and then only on extreme ok that your colleagues their charisma nevada you think it argues effective leadership of by the democrats in the house of representatives that even though the percentage of veto overrides may be higher so many have been sustained we have overwritten the vetoes that mr i talked about and those that we did not override we came back immediately with compromise legislation that accomplished it consider of almost all of what we were attempting to get in the first place the housing bill the jobs bill and others the initiative in this congress has come from the congress and not from the president ok now what's going to happen supposing a democratic president was elected supposing you're you're confronting on regarding where federation president carter in the white house come january what is the

leadership going to be up to then are you going to be marilyn a decision of rubber stamping a democratic president's proposals i hope that we do have a democratic president in the white house that we have a democratic congress and we're don't have divided government for the next four years but i don't think the congress is going to be a rubber stamp that was not a rubber stamp when lyndon johnson was pushing through much of his legislation we changed his legislation and this this next congress i am sure after all of the changes that we have made the war powers act the budget act and other initiatives that we haven't changes in our legislation will not sit back and be a rubber stamp for any president whether he'd be a democrat or not congressman marlin gusman conclusion i want to ask each of you quickly what you feel about this as jim said every day seems to widen these sex scandals tourism while they may be peripherally to symbolize this public opinion of the congress at the moment is expressed through the press' war are you going to

do what can you do quickly to refurbish that opinion before november apart from removing mr hasan has diminished well we are a remote mr nations committees ship either by resignation or by other means we should take a quick step stuart schorr the accountability of all members of the council members purified if there are any that need to be purified we should take some other steps to clean up the situation and the house administration committee we should also provide in my judgment we should provide for a commissioned a bipartisan commission with people from the house in the majority and people from the outside representing citizens and expertise to get some advice from that commission on how to manage our internal affairs much more effectively than we have so far merck congressman right jodi revenue added that use force told you think it's urgent that something be done to restore public conference before confidence before you face the voters in november but i'm not concerned about the voters in november so much robert as i am concerned about the future of

this institution i'm convinced that with all of its flaws and that marvel imperfections it still has the best system that's ever been devised i think one of the best things that could happen would be if we were to televise more of our proceedings the substantive constructive things that happen in congress i was really raised itself to a new pinnacle of public respectability when the public was permitted to see not just close matches here and there but straight through the proceedings but when on the yiddish root committee of the con that's what needs to be done well i'll pick it up right with new promise to write i think that we ought to look very seriously at the televising the proceedings a long as they don't interfere with the operation of the house i'm very proud of the house and i know my colleagues are to the caliber of the members in the house is very

hot wildly the house representatives and the congress generally in public polls is down low every individual congressman in his district is considered very high and i i know that these things have happened but i think they can be cleaned up very quickly realize we have to leave a benefit congress wasn't think we get triggered thank you all very much and big thank you jim jam where another that the peak weeks but

the pay is better you're only learn new it