The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Leading the news this Monday, Attorney General Meese fired his spokesman for not defending him aggressively enough. Surgeon General Koop said that nicotine is as addictive as heroin or cocaine. Inmates at an Oklahoma prison ended a three day siege and released their hostages. We'll have details in our news summary in a moment. Judy Woodruff is in Washington tonight. Judy? JUDY WOODRUFF: After the news summary we focus first on the firing at the Justice Department. We hear what's behind the latest development, and what it means for Attorney General Meese. Then a newsmaker interview with Surgeon General C. Everett Koop on the link between cigarettes and drug addiction. Finally, a Roger Rosenblatt essay on superstitions. News Summary WOODRUFF: Attorney General Edwin Meese has fired the man who has been his chief public defender. Justice Department spokesman Terry Eastland announced today that Meese had relieved him of his duties last Friday. Eastland said the Attorney General accused his spokesman of not defending him vigorously enough. Meese at first avoided reporters on the subject today, but then explained that he had decided it simply was time for a change in leadership in Eastland's position. He compared it to the firing of the longtime Baltimore Orioles' baseball team manager earlier this season. For his part, Eastland held a news conference where he defended his defense of the Attorney General.

TERRY EASTLAND, Meese Chief Public Defender: I feel no anger at all at the Attorney General. He has always treated me with courtesy. Secondly, I feel very strongly about this, that the Attorney General has a perfect right, it's his prerogative to have whomever he wishes serving in the job that I have held. I certainly believe that I have done my best, tried my best. I'll leave it to others to judge and I would just simply say that apparently my efforts did not suffice. WOODRUFF: Eastland did say that with Meese under criminal investigation for the past year, it would be difficult for him to be as aggressive as Meese might like in his public defense of the Attorney General. Also today, the head of Meese's speechwriting unit abruptly handed in his resignation. Robin? MacNEIL: A group appointed by President Reagan to study last October's stock market crash today recommended that trading be halted if stock averages fell sharply again. The group, headed by Treasury Secretary James Baker, backed away from controversial proposals, for instance that margin or credit requirements be tightened for traders in futures contracts. The report said that all markets for stocks, stock options, stock index options and futures stop trading for one hour if the Down Jones Industrial average dropped by 250 points from its previous close. After trading was resumed, if it fell 400 points, trading would again be halted for two hours. WOODRUFF: U. S. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop fired a blast at the tobacco industry today. Koop made a major public announcement in connection with a new report that cigarette smoking is addictive. The report compares tobacco addiction to addiction to drugs, such as heroin and cocaine. At a news conference, Koop summarized the findings.

C. EVERETT KOOP, Surgeon General: There are three overall conclusions to this report. First, cigarettes and other forms of tobacco are addicting. Second, nicotine is the drug in tobacco that causes addiction, and third, the pharmacologic and behavioral processes that determine tobacco addiction are similar to those that determine addiction to drugs such as heroin and cocaine. WOODRUFF: The Koop declaration immediately set off a groundswell of support from health and anti smoking groups, and a firestorm of protests from the tobacco industry. A spokesman for the North Carolina tobacco growers called the report political rather than scientific. But on Capitol Hill, legislation was introduced today, requiring new labels on cigarettes that warn that smoking is addictive. Also today, the Supreme Court ruled that Americans have no right of privacy to their garbage once it's put out for collection. The court ruled six to two against a pair of California residents, whom police charged with drug dealing after evidence was found in their trash. A majority of the high court argued that the police couldn't be expected to ignore evidence that is readily accessible to the public. MacNEIL: Soviet troops continued their withdrawal from Afghanistan today in a pullout that will last nine months. The White House said it was a welcome first step towards independence and self determination. We have a report from Kabul by Chris Niles of Viznews.

CHRIS NILES, Viznews: Safely through the first part of their potentially hesitant homeward journey, the Soviet troops who arrived in Kabul from Jalalabad on Sunday were farewelled at a brief ceremony on the outskirts of town. A large civilian crowd joined Afghan troops to say goodbye. The men are the first of more than 115,000 Red Army soldiers to return to the Soviet Union since Moscow decided to quiet the eight year conflict. As Afghan President Najibullah delivered his thanks, the sound of gunfire could be heard in the mountains. Western backed guerillas have vowed to harass the troops all the way to the border, a two day drive away. Officially, Afghanistan is grateful for the troops' services. Privately people are more concerned about who will replace them. There was no repeat of rebel bombings in Kabul on Saturday, but paramilitary police were on the alert. Civilians are now wondering what will happen once the Soviets have left. Will the Afghan government meet a sudden end? Or will the guerillas wait until just before winter when most of the Soviets have left before seeking a trial of strength with President Najibullah? WOODRUFF: Back in this country, prison inmates in Stringtown, Oklahoma, ended their three day siege today. The last two hostages were released this morning in a deal worked out between negotiators and the 20 inmates involved in the takeover. The agreement required television coverage of the hostage release, as well as the transfer of the 20 inmates to another prison facility. One inmate and one guard were slightly injured during he uprising. MacNEIL: In Carrolton, Kentucky, the driver of a pickup truck that collided with a church bus Saturday night was charged today with 27 counts of murder, after tests showed alcohol in his blood. In addition to the 27 fatalities, the collision left 40 others injured, including the driver of the truck, who remains in serious condition. The pickup truck was going the wrong way on Southbound Interstate 71 when it hit the school bus filled with teenagers from a church group returning home from an amusement park outing. The gas tank exploded, filling the bus with flames. Sixteen youngsters from one school in Radcliffe, Kentucky, were listed as dead or missing, and coroners were still trying today to identify some victims. WOODRUFF: Pat Robertson suspended his drive for the White House today. The GOP Presidential candidate said that he would stop active campaigning, and he repeated his endorsement of Vice President Bush. The former TV evangelist was the last remaining challenger to Bush. His campaign spent $22 million, but garnered only 46 delegates. Robertson called it quits at a press conference outside his home in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

PAT ROBERTSON, former presidential candidate: I entered the race as a champion of conservative values, I entered the race so I might speak out on great moral issues confronting our nation. And I entered the race to win. I did not win. Out of eight potential candidates, I came in third. George Bush has won the nomination. I applaud his magnificent effort and warmly endorse his candidacy. Today I suspend my candidacy for the Republican nomination for the presidency of the United States in 1988. But I do not now, nor will I ever suspend, my advocacy of conservative and moral principles. WOODRUFF: Robertson said his immediate plans were to return to the leadership of his Christian Broadcasting Network, which is reportedly in financial trouble. MacNEIL: Israeli security forces shot and killed two Palestinian teenagers and wounded nine other demonstrators during new protests today in the Occupied Territories. The worst disturbances occurred in a Gaza Strip refugee camp where Israeli soldiers opened fire on stone throwers during a memorial march and killed a 17 year old youth. Today's violence also came during Israel's worst heat wave in 18 years. Temperatures in Tel Aviv topped 108 degrees. In Lebanon, rival militia factions in Beirut Shiite Muslim suburbs today defied a Syrian demand for a cease fire. Syrian troops and tanks have ringed the sprawling suburb where 14 people were killed and 120 wounded in the past two days of fighting. Eighteen Western hostages, including nine Americans, are believed held in the area controlled by Hezbollah, an Iranian backed militia group. WOODRUFF: A Pentagon spokesman announced today that the wreckage of a U. S. Marine helicopter lost in the Persian Gulf last month has been found. The announcement said the bodies of its two crewmen were recovered yesterday. The helicopter was reported missing after the April 18 battle between U. S. and Iranian forces in the Gulf. That's it for our news summary. Still ahead on the NewsHour, more turmoil at the Justice Department. Surgeon General Koop on cigarette addiction, and a Roger Rosenblatt essay. C. Everett Koop MacNEIL: First tonight, nicotineand addiction. As we reported earlier, Surgeon General C. Everett Koop today declared nicotine as addictive as heroin or cocaine. In his new report, The Health Consequences of Smoking: Nicotine Addiction, the Surgeon General writes, ''Examination of the data makes it clear that cigarettes and other forms of tobacco are addicting. Research has shown that nicotine is the drug in tobacco that causes addiction. '' The Surgeon General is with us tonight to talk about these conclusions. Mr. Surgeon General, welcome. C. EVERETT KOOP, Surgeon General: Nice to be here. MacNEIL: These findings are not based, as I understand, on new research. What are the data on which you base this dramatic conclusion? Dr. KOOP: Well, most of the research that has been done on addiction has been done in the last 20 years, since the first report by Luther Terry in 1964. As a matter of fact, most of the things in the report have been discovered in the last seven years. So that what this report actually does is put down in one place the most comprehensive review of the addictive properties of tobacco that ever have appeared in one place. There are 2000 references in this rather weighty volume. MacNEIL: What precisely do you mean as addictive as cocaine and heroin? Dr. KOOP: Well, we mean that nicotine satisfies the same criteria for addiction. First of all that the behavior of smokers is compulsive, as it is with other drug addicts. That it produces psychoactive effects. And that the rewarding effects of persisting in this habit are reinforced in drug taking behavior. Now, those are the three major criteria which establish any drug as being addictive. There are other things, of course, which we're more familiar with, such as the tolerance that develops, the withdrawal symptoms, the cravings that people have, the euphoriant reaction you get after taking these drugs. And there of course are most of all, I think, the fact that these habits are repetitive and stereotyped. MacNEIL: Smokers are addicted as quickly as takers of these other drugs? Dr. KOOP: It's hard to say when they are addicted or how they are addicted, but we know that most smoking begins in our culture in the teen years, and that by adult life, most people who are smoking are already hooked and addicted. So that if you could stop the beginnings of cigarette smoking with teenagers, you would do a tremendous amount to get rid of those 300,000 plus deaths a year we have from smoking related illnesses. MacNEIL: Does everyone who smokes for a period of time become addicted, or is it only an addictive type? Dr. KOOP: There are for all addictive drugs, that includes morphine, heroin, cocaine, amphetamines, people that are called chippers. These are people who can take a little bit of the drug and never seem to have to have more and more. In the tobacco world, about 10% of smokers are what we call chippers. They can smoke five or fewer cigarettes a day and never go beyond that. But we don't understand that, and that requires some research. MacNEIL: Essentially, by addiction you mean difficulty in giving it up, right? Dr. KOOP: Tremendous difficulty in giving it up. To the point where the withdrawal symptoms produce real physical changes in individuals, so much so that even though they know the adverse effect, be they health or social or whatever, they go back to their addictive habit in spite of that knowledge. MacNEIL: What do you say to the tobacco institute, which said in a statement today that smoking is a personal choice which can be stopped if and when a person decides to do so? Dr. KOOP: Well, ask the 43 million people who smoke in this country whether they can stop, if they can stop if they want to, and you will find that 85% of them say I would like to stop tomorrow, but I can't. Many of them will say I've tried five times to stop and I can't. That is addiction. MacNEIL: Well, the Tobacco Institute in the same statement says, by your own public health service figures, 40 million Americans are former smokers and that 95% of them quit smoking without help. And they say that these figures and common sense contradict any claim that smoking is an addiction. Dr. KOOP: Absolutely not. The tobacco industry has always been very short on science. As a matter of fact, people who are addicted to morphine and heroin and cocaine know very well that these are addictions. Yet 30% of those people give up that addiction on their own. So they are no different than tobacco smokers. MacNEIL: Do I understand you to say 30% of those addicted to heroin and cocaine give up on their own? Dr. KOOP: Give up on their own. They are spontaneous remitters. MacNEIL: But is there really a comparison in intensity? Because the first thing a layman hears on hearing this comparison is that heroin and cocaine are really serious drugs, and you're talking about cigarettes that millions of people smoke and that aren't illegal. Is there a compari -- for instance it's widely known, because it occupies so much law enforcement, that deprivation or withdrawal from heroin or cocaine leads people to kill or rob other people. Now, deprivation of cigarettes doesn't cause people to do that. Dr. KOOP: I don't know that you know that, Robin. That's because you're talking about cocaine and heroin as drugs that are illicit, and therefore they're not available. And when people go after them with this craving they will do all sorts of things. We have never had in this country a time when tobacco wasn't available. But if you go back several centuries in the days when smokers had their hands crushed, or were beheaded, people still went out and sought that drug. We've never had the experience in this country. MacNEIL: So you're saying that if smoking were made illegal, then there would be crime produced by addicts who are deprived of their nicotine. Dr. KOOP: I have no doubt about it, although we've never tested it. MacNEIL: Let's go -- oh, yes, another point here, just again from this statement by the Tobacco Institute today. They say that by making this comparison, or the claim of comparison, you are trivializing the serious drug problems by saying that smoking has the same risks of addiction as heroin or cocaine, that you're trivializing the others by comparison. Dr. KOOP: I don't believe that at all. I've already said that these drugs are very commonly associated in the effects that they have on people. And I mentioned the fact that 30% of people on cocaine and heroin do spontaneously remit. That makes them very much the same kind of drug. I don't think it trivializes it at all. I think what it does primarily is to make the nonsmoker understand that the smoker whose habits he does not like really is a person who is not making a free choice, and I think that the nonsmoker is going to be much more tolerant of the problems faced by the smoker as he indeed tries to quit. MacNEIL: But this country is in a state of crisis about these other illicit drugs, bordering on hysteria, a problem that seems out of control and deeply implicated in crime and all the social disruption and failure that is commonly associated with it. Are you really comparing tobacco with that kind of social morbidity? Dr. KOOP: I think again, Robin, you're jumping out of a discussion of the pharmacological effects of drugs upon human beings, and getting over into their behavior when they are deprived of this drug and what they will do to get it. We cannot compare tobacco with those things because we've never seen what happens to people when they are totally deprived of the drug. MacNEIL: Well, then compare tobacco in its effects on the health and death rate of the nation with the effects of heroin and cocaine and the other illegal drugs. Dr. KOOP: Okay, if you want to do it on death rates, we lose about 2000 people a year to cocaine and amphetamines, 4000 people a year to opiates and heroin, 125,000 to alcohol, which is another drug which is addicting, but we lose in excess of 300,000 due to the health effects of tobacco. MacNEIL: I see. Let's go through some of the things you said today in your statement that you hoped to achieve with this. You want an additional warning on tobacco packages. What would it say if you got your way? Dr. KOOP: If I got my way it would say that this cigarette contains tobacco which has in it an addictive drug called nicotine. That would be the very minimal thing, the word addictive. If you wanted to go further and say that the pharmacological reaction for addiction is similar to that found in other drugs such as cocaine and heroin, that would be even better. I understand that Senator Bradley has introduced legislation today for just that type of warning. MacNEIL: You say you would like the sales of tobacco to be controlled. Describe how you would like to see them controlled. Dr. KOOP: Robin, 43 states in this union already have laws on their books which forbid the sale of tobacco product to minors. But as you know, those laws are not enforced at all. Secondly, we have vending machines where it's impossible to verify the age of a person when he purchases the product of tobacco, and then we also know that the tobacco industry very freely gives out samples on public property, does so at rock concerts, does so at automobile races that they sponsor, and never ask an obvious minor whether or not he has reached the age of majority. If this could be stopped, if we could do enforcement of laws that already exist, to keep kids from starting, we would not have this tremendous problem of addiction. And remember that I am concerned about the health effects of this and the killing of more than 300,000 people a year in this country. MacNEIL: There's mention of licensing tobacco sales, or bringing it under the purview of the Food and Drug Administration. What are your feelings about that? Dr. KOOP: Well, those are two separate things, Robin. Many of us believe that any nicotine delivery system should be controlled by the Food and Drug Administration. Congress has previously acted to declare tobacco not a drug, not a food, not a cosmetic. And therefore not regulatable. I think that could be changed. The other problem -- it slipped my mind, the other thing you asked me about? MacNEIL: Well, I said to have it licensed. Dr. KOOP: Licensed? Well, you can't sell alcohol to minors, and you have to have a license to sell alcohol, and you know that if you do sell alcohol to minors, that license is revoked. Now, those same laws exist in 43 states in reference to tobacco, and I think they could be shored up and enforced. MacNEIL: You also want health insurance to cover the costs of quitting smoking. Dr. KOOP: Health insurance now in many instances does cover the cost of taking care of the alcoholic, and also people who are on hard drugs, like heroin and cocaine. They do not in general cover smoking programs, and I think that's a double standard. And when you realize that the Office of Technology Assessment has said that smoking costs this country $65 billion a year, I think anything that insurance companies did would be cost effective. MacNEIL: To come back to your -- just in conclusion, to come back to the central finding that tobacco is as addictive as the illicit drugs, isn't that saying by implication that heroin and cocaine, which so upset this society now, are not as important, relatively speaking, as they seem? Dr. KOOP: No. Again, I think you -- don't confuse this report, which discusses the pharmacologic aspect of the addictive process and proves why this drug is just as addictive as cocaine and heroin with the criminal process that develops because people cannot obtain what they want in the way of heroin and cocaine, and that the price therefore goes up and they can't afford it and they're willing to be criminal in order to get it. MacNEIL: Well, let me turn it around the other way. Comparing the two things, wouldn't it be logical to say that smoking shall be illegal if the other drugs are illegal. Dr. KOOP: Well, I think that many people feel that that is the case. But as I've said I think before on your program tobacco has enjoyed a very favorite status in this country. It financed the American Revolution, it made the Virginia colonies affluent as compared to those in New England, Congress has always given it a favored status, and only recently has begun to see what tremendous problems in disease, disability and death have ensued because of that policy. MacNEIL: Surgeon General Koop, thank you for joining us. Judy? WOODRUFF: Still ahead on the NewsHour, the firing at the Justice Department, a controversial treatment for children with brain disorders and a Roger Rosenblatt essay. Inadequate Defense WOODRUFF: Next tonight, we look at fresh turmoil at the Justice Department. As we reported, Attorney General Meese has fired his chief spokesman Terry Eastland. The department also lost its top speechwriter William Schambra who resigned today, reportedly in protest over Eastland's firing. This comes after the resignations at the end of March of former Associate Attorney General Arnold Burns, Assistant Attorney General William Weld and a number of their top aides. Eastland, who leaves the department today, held a press conference this afternoon.

TERRY EASTLAND, former Attorney General spokesman: The Attorney General wants someone who is willing to defend him apparently very aggressively, more so apparently than I have done. REPORTER: Are you telling us that you feel that your work was lukewarm on behalf of General Meese? Mr. EASTLAND: Well, I think that I have -- certainly I believe that I have done a job that can stand up to scrutiny, but I'll submit that for those of you here who have had to work with me and for others to judge. REPORTER: Is he an ethical man? Do you think he should stay at his post? Mr. EASTLAND: Well, I did not come here this afternoon to pronounce on the Attorney General's character, except to say what I have said before. He is a fine man, he has always treated me with courtesy. I hope the very best for him. REPORTER: Terry, what does the term line loyalty mean to you, and is that in effect what you think the Attorney General wanted from you? Mr. EASTLAND: I once had a philosophy exam and I was trying to figure out what I was supposed to study for, and I asked my professor and he said, Well, in philosophy you're responsible for the whole damned universe. That's one of those kind of questions. I don't know how to answer that. I haven't -- I mean it's a difficult one to answer. I think that loyalty is one important commodity in politics. And I have been loyal to this Attorney General, and I think that certainly each officer in the government should be loyal to his superior. REPORTER: Did you consider resigning earlier, in the last few weeks? Mr. EASTLAND: Well, there was an account carried, a couple of accounts that indicated that there were some people who had considered that, that they considered it, and I was among them. In the context of if the two individuals who did resign, if they know something new, well then that should be known to me, and I would then evaluate and see what I might do. But there was nothing new that Mr. Burns or Mr. Weld knew. REPORTER: Have you ever suggested that the Attorney General resign? Mr. EASTLAND: I will not go into any advice I might have given on that kind of question. I think again there are matters that I think should be in confidence for the government properly to work. I really do think though that the Attorney General is correct to say let's abide the process, let's wait to the conclusion of the independent counsel report before anyone makes any judgments about him or about his status in office. I think that is the entirely appropriate course of action, and that is certainly what I would say today or tomorrow if you check me tomorrow. WOODRUFF: For more on today's resignations, we are now joined by Patrick Korten, the man Attorney General Meese today named to replace Terry Eastland as Director of the Public Affairs at the Justice Department. Also Nina Totenberg, who covers the Justice Department for National Public Radio, and Gary McDowell, formerly associate director of the Justice Department's Office of Public Affairs under Terry Eastland. Patrick Korten, Terry Eastland says he defended Edwin Meese to the best of his ability. The speechwriter who resigned today, Mr. Schambra, said that Eastland couldn't have -- or rather that the Attorney General couldn't have asked for a more conscientious spokesman. Why was he fired? PATRICK KORTEN, Justice Department: Well, able defense is not what's at issue here. I don't think that anyone would argue that Terry hasn't done a wonderful job in all aspects of the job of Director of Public Affairs. What happened, as I understand it, having talked somewhat to both him and the Attorney General today, is that the Attorney General simply felt that he needed to make a management change to change personnel at a key spot, something he felt more comfortable with, something he felt would put him in a better position to go through the last months of the administration. And this is Washington. In Washington, those of us who occupy political positions all know and all understand going in when you take a political position you serve at the pleasure of the person who appoints you. WOODRUFF: Well, you're not denying though that this business about not defending Meese vigorously enough, the Attorney General vigorously enough, was a factor -- Mr. KORTEN: I really don't think that that is an accurate way of putting it. I think that Mr. Meese simply felt that he wanted to make achange in that spot, and that the adequacy of the defense, as you put it, was not that big an issue. WOODRUFF: Well, when Eastland, we know from wire reports today that in Eastland's letter to the Attorney General he said that he feels that a spokesman has the obligation not only to serve the Attorney General, but also to serve the Department of Justice and the American people. Mr. KORTEN: Sure, and no one will argue with that. I wouldn't argue with that, Ed Meese would not argue with that. As a matter of fact, we've all at one time or another in the course of the day today said that that is certainly an appropriate stance for any director of public affairs to take, would certainly be my stance. I think that it's very important for me to pay attention to the needs of the country, of the President and to the Attorney General. WOODRUFF: What do you think of the Attorney General? Mr. KORTEN: I think he's a fine man. I think he's one of the most decent men that I've ever known. He's certainly one of the most decent, kind men that I've ever encountered in politics in Washington. He's a rare animal, the kind of person who doesn't lose his temper, doesn't go flying off, is not a vindictive sort. He cares deeply about the issues and he works very hard on them. WOODRUFF: Nina Totenberg, let me come to you now. What is your perspective on this? What has happened here? NINA TOTENBERG, National Public Radio: Well, Terry Eastland said, and I think most of the people who cover the Department think, that he in fact viewed himself as something of an honest broker in this very troubled time. Both trying to represent the Attorney General's interests and trying to convey to reporters the state of the Department of Justice. He said repeatedly that he would not take the independent counsel's report lightly, that it had to be evaluated once it was delivered -- WOODRUFF: The report on the Attorney General -- Ms. TOTENBERG: -- on the Attorney General that's coming out soon, after a year of investigation. And you'll notice in the tape that we just saw of him, when he was asked about the Attorney General's ethics, he rather skillfully avoided answering that question. Mr. Korten, in contrast today, when we interviewed him in the hallway, was very forthcoming about what an ethical man he thought Ed Meese is. Now, I think -- WOODRUFF: What are you saying? Ms. TOTENBERG: -- that difference is what Ed Meese wanted. He didn't want a spokesman who held, who pulled back on his punches at all. He wants an aggressive defender. We know that in all probability this report will not have conclusions in it. It will have potential ethical violations that are specified and referred to the Office of Professional Responsibility for further evaluation. And so what Mr. Meese wants is an advocate out there. And the hidden message here, Judy, I think is very clear that the Attorney General intends to stay on the job. WOODRUFF: Is that the message here, Gary McDowell? And also, do you see it as Nina has laid it out, that that's what Eastland did wrong? He wasn't vigorous enough? GARY McDOWELL, former Justice Department Official: Well, first of all, I don't think anybody thinks Ed Meese is going anywhere. He has indicated his intention to stay in and probably stay until the end of the administration, and that's something I personally applaud. I would hate to see him go. I think that Nina's interpretation that Terry is somehow waffling on the ethical question is simply not accurate. I've known Terry for a long time, and he's never conveyed to me that he has any ethical reservations or doubts about the Attorney General. He has time and time again defended the Attorney General, I think vigorously and eloquently as an ethical man, as a man who has done no wrong and who's been put upon by a lot of unfair critics. WOODRUFF: Well, then, what's going on here? Mr. McDOWELL: I think what's going on here are two things. One, the Attorney General has been under siege for quite a long time. When that happens to a person, he begins to reevaluate, let's think through what we might do to bolster our chances in the future. I think this is not a glance back critically at anything Terry has done or not done, but I think it's a glance to the future and rather more hopeful glance on how to get things done for the rest of the administration. WOODRUFF: Did Eastland deserve to be fired? Mr. McDOWELL: No. I think it's the biggest mistake the Attorney General has ever made. WOODRUFF: Why is that? Mr. McDOWELL: Because Terry Eastland is a man who has contributed a great deal to his public presence, he has given a lot of credibility to the Attorney General during his very trying times. And I think when you fire the messenger there are going to be a lot of questions as to why that was done. WOODRUFF: Nina, just back real quickly to your point. What exactly was Eastland saying to people that you think ultimately got him in trouble? Ms. TOTENBERG: Well, I asked him today at that press conference what was the straw that broke the camel's back, and he said, ''I don't know. '' But he was saying withhold judgment, let's wait and see. And I maintain that Ed Meese wanted more than that. That he wanted somebody who would swear allegiance and fealty to the Attorney General's ethics in blood, every place all over the floor, and he hopes he's got it with Mr. Korten. There's no secret in the Department over the last month about the anguish of some of the aides to the Attorney General. And Terry Eastland was one of them. And it was very clear to me that a couple of weeks ago he got cut off from information. WOODRUFF: Patrick Korten, are you going to give the sort of fealty that Nina's just described to the Attorney General? Mr. KORTEN: Well, in the first place, the Attorney General and I have never discussed fealty or anything else. What he wants is a good public affairs job. And I intend to give it to him to the best of my ability. But this is not a question of who can be more loyal and who can be more aggressive. It's a question of who at this point and time the Attorney General feels more comfortable with running his public affairs shop. I really don't think there's anything more to it than that. WOODRUFF: With all due respect, that sounds like something the public affairs spokesman would say when there's more going on behind the scenes. Mr. KORTEN: I would hate to sound out of character. Ms. TOTENBERG: I just want to say that I talked to a number of top Justice Department people late this afternoon, all of whom viewed this as a self inflicted wound by the Attorney General. As one of them said to me, We've been trying to keep the lid on things, keep everything quiet until the independent counsel's report comes out, and here we are splashed all over the television and the front pages again with the question of the Attorney General's ethics up in the air. WOODRUFF: Gary McDowell? Mr. McDOWELL: I just go back to agree with Pat. I think that this should not be looked upon as a personal vendetta of any kind or any shortcoming on Terry's part. I think the Attorney General looks at the horizon, sees the storm clouds gathering in the I. C. 's report, one way or another, and he's battening down his hatches for the last sail. WOODRUFF: But is it what he has managed to do, as Nina's just pointed out, gotten himself back in the headlines in a less than very positive manner? Mr. McDOWELL: I agree. That's why I say it's the biggest mistake he's made. At a time when things were relatively quiet and things were going relatively smoothly, he should not have fired Terry Eastland. WOODRUFF: What do you think the ultimate effect of this is going to be on the Attorney General? Mr. McDOWELL: I think public suspicions are aroused, and I think he's going to find himself increasingly under fire from his critics on the Hill and in the media. And I think he's going to find it far rougher going, and I think Mr. Korten's got one big job ahead of him. WOODRUFF: What do you think's going to happen, Mr. Korten? Do you think -- what effect do you think all of this publicity is going to have? You don't think it's going to help, do you? Mr. KORTEN: Well, I think this is what we call in the parlance of the game a one day story. I don't think that this is a big thing, and I don't think it's going to last a long time. There's one other interesting thing that I think you should know. And that is that this is an unusual sort of situation. Because when you fire somebody you would ordinarily expect the person doing the firing to have harsh feelings, and Mr. Meese said repeatedly today on a number of occasions that he has all the respect in the world for the job that Terry did. He just simply felt that he needed to make a change. He even offered something that was not done, I should add, for the Deputy Attorney General and the head of the Criminal Division when they left, offered to throw a party, a goodbye party for Mr. Eastland. And it was simply Terry's decision to decline that. WOODRUFF: How are you going to be different in the job though than Terry Eastland was? Mr. KORTEN: Everybody has a different style. Terry's style is a little quieter than mine. I'm a little bit more aggressive I guess you would say. And -- WOODRUFF: Nina, you're laughing. Now, why are you laughing? Ms. TOTENBERG: Well, because somebody in the Department called Pat Korten today the pit bull of the Justice Department. I don't know, Pat, if you're really going to be a pit bull. Mr. KORTEN: A slight exaggeration. Ms. TOTENBERG: He's known for his acerbic wit, let's put it that way delicately. WOODRUFF: Well, let's go back then to the Attorney General. Nina, back to the point that she made a moment ago. Does this make it more difficult for the Attorney General to survive what's coming out in the coming month from the special prosecutor? Ms. TOTENBERG: Well, I'm not a public relations artist, but I can't imagine that it can really help. At least in the short run. Perhaps it was the wise choice to make. Perhaps he will have Pat all fired up there, able to make the points that he wants made, and maybe they'll be made better than Terry would have made them, I don't know. But I think that the decision probably will raise more suspicion than it allays. WOODRUFF: Gary McDowell? Mr. McDOWELL: I still go back to my original point, the political fallout of this I think is going to be disastrous for the Attorney General. And I would also reiterate my view that this Attorney General has been one of the great public servants of this administration. And that he should stay the course, this should not give any credibility to the rising clamor for his resignation. WOODRUFF: How do you -- here you have Patrick Korten and Gary McDowell, someone who is a big fan of the Attorney General, still saying you've got a political disaster, a public relations disaster on your hands. Mr. KORTEN: Well, Gary and I are old friends, and we don't disagree on much. But that's one of the few things we disagree on. I think that -- again, Washington is a place where decisions are made to make personnel changes all the time. You have members of Congress who change press secretaries almost as often as they change their socks. And nobody pays any attention at all. If Sam Pierce had replaced his public affairs officer over at Housing and Urban Development today, there would have been hardly a peep. But because Ed Meese is much in the news lately, it gets more attention. But I don't think that it should be given any higher level of significance than it deserves. It was a simple, honest desire to make a personnel change in a way that he felt more comfortable. WOODRUFF: What are the chances you believe the Attorney General will still be in his position at the end of the year? Mr. KORTEN: Excellent. WOODRUFF: Nina? Ms. TOTENBERG: Excellent. WOODRUFF: You believe that he will weather the storm? Ms. TOTENBERG: Well, in this discussion about whether Ed Meese leaves, short of an indictment, in the last analysis there's an audience of one. And that audience of one is the President of the United States. And he's given no indication that he wants the Attorney General to leave, and Mr. Meese has given no indication he wants to leave. WOODRUFF: Gary McDowell? The chances the Attorney General will be here at the end of the year? Mr. McDOWELL: I think he has every intention of being here, and I don't foresee anything coming up that would force him out. I certainly don't think this will do it. WOODRUFF: Well, Gary McDowell, Nina Totenberg, Patrick Korten, thank you all for being with us. Patterns for Life MacNEIL: Next tonight we look at a controversial treatment for children with brain disorders. Parents of such children are often told there is no hope for recovery, but since 1965 some 15,000 families from around the world have rejected that prognosis. They've turned to an institute in Philadelphia which offers hope that their children can be helped, or even cured through unconventional techniques. Jeffrey Kaye of Public Station KCET in Los Angeles has the story.

JEFFREY KAYE: In a picturesque section of Los Angeles, in a house overlooking the Silver Lake reservoir, volunteers are trying to rehabilitate 3 l/2 year old Kathryn Blackburn, who is almost totally paralyzed. This is called patterning. By repeatedly manipulating her head and limbs in a crawling pattern, Jean Blackburn, a single mother, believes she and neighborhood volunteers can train her daughter to crawl and eventually to walk. JEAN BLACKBURN: Before this you couldn't bend her ankles, her feet were completely pointed. You couldn't get her knees apart.

KAYE: The theory behind this therapy, disparaged within most medical circles, is that with massive sensory stimulation, the uninjured part of the brain can learn to do what the damaged portion is incapable of. Ms. BLACKBURN: She's doing all sorts of things she never did. You know, stretching out, and reacting and even talking a little, I understand.

KAYE: Up until the age of seven and a half months, Kathryn was a healthy infant. On November 26, 1984, she was found unconscious. Paramedics brought Kathryn to Children's Hospital of Los Angeles. Doctors eventually diagnosed viral encephalitis. Kathryn began breathing on her own, but had to be fed through a gastric tube. She could not hear, see or swallow, and doctors said she probably never would. Jean Blackburn says one doctor suggested she institutionalize her daughter, a recommendation she dismissed. Ms. BLACKBURN: And I knew she was in there. I mean I knew that the little girl was there, that that was my little girl. If you're going to place somebody, you're giving up on them. You don't do that to somebody you love. You don't leave the wounded behind. KAYE: Blackburn embarked on an intensive program of vigorous sensory stimulation. She and her helpers sounded loud horns and flashed bright lights to stimulate Kathryn's hearing and sight. The technique seemed ineffective until one morning before dawn Blackburn realized her daughter could see again. Ms. BLACKBURN: Up until then she just stared like this. I took the flashlight to see where she was, and it shined in her eyes, and she squinted away from it. And I just thought, yeah, I can get up and do this. It's working.

KAYE: Blackburn, a former artist, is devoting her life to her daughter's recovery. She gets by on welfare and social security payments, assistance from the state and contributions from friends. The crawling patterning is only one part of Jean and Kathryn's daily regimen. For several hours a day and at night, a respirator regulates Kathryn's breathing. The goal is to provide more oxygen to the brain. In another room, some of the 75 volunteers who have worked with Kathryn over the past two years make flash cards, cards which the once blind child seems to respond to. Ms. BLACKBURN: What would you like to eat? Potatoes or French toast? Potatoes. Okay. Good girl.

KAYE: This therapy program is not new. It was developed in 1955 at the Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential in Philadelphia. About every six months Jean and Kathryn Blackburn journey here with helpers for a week long visit. Ms. BLACKBURN: Guess where we are, Kathryn? We're back at the Institute again.

KAYE: Here, Kathryn's progress will be evaluated and her treatment modified if necessary. There's a comradery among families who make the pilgrimage to the Institutes from all over the world. They share similar stories, and an almost religious conviction that the Institutes hold the answer to their prayers. WOMAN: When he was born, they pretty well didn't want to help, the M. D. s and everyone told us just to forget it. WOMAN: This is our son Bill. Can you say Hi? KAYE: Hi, Bill. How long have you been coming here, Bill? BILL: Six years. KAYE: Really? BILL's Father: He's coming along very well. The goal is to put him in the regular class with children approximately his age and just go right on through the school system. WOMAN: So she has (intelligible) speech right now. She has good, good girl, gah -- Ms. BLACKBURN: It sounds like gai, gai. That's when she's hungry. WOMAN: So nice to see you smiling. You're talking to me, you're hungry are you? I'm sorry, but can you wait a few more seconds?

KAYE: The Institutes believe that therapy for brain damage must start with the basics, breathing and crawling. Counselor Phyllis Kinnel wants to test Kathryn's mobility. Ms. KINNEL: Good move. Good move with the arms, Kathryn. Good girl.Come on, try again, that's great! Good girl. Look at your arms. Good girl, Kathryn. That's great.

KAYE: The Institutes were founded by physical therapist Glenn Doman, who is better known for developing programs designed to teach babies to read. Doman believes that unlike conventional therapies, patterning treats the brain. GLENN DOMAN: What you're doing is saying to that child's brain through every path that goes to the brain, you're saying, This is how it feels to crawl. This is how it feels to crawl. This is how it feels to crawl.

KAYE: Similarly, Doman says respirators can train the brain how to breathe. Mr. DOMAN: When we are using respiratory patterns, we are saying to the brain this is how it feels to breathe, this is how it feels to breathe.

KAYE: The Institutes believe that improved breathing causes the chest to develop, so the staff is particularly interested in measuring Kathryn's chest growth. At the end of one long day of evaluation, Jean Blackburn prepares to hear the results of the battery of tests performed on Kathryn. She meets with Janet Doman, Glenn Doman's daughter, who is the director of the Institutes. JANET DOMAN, director of the Institutes: The staff is so excited, she's talking. It's just great.

KAYE: Doman explains that 3 l/2 year old Kathryn is now believed to have the neurological development of a ten month old. The staff has also evaluated her physical progress. Ms. DORMAN: In height, she grew 27% of what the average kid would have. And that, as I said, that's poor to fair. In chest, she grew more than 3 l/2 times faster than the average kid. That's spectacular change, and every time we get that bigger, better chest, we have a bigger and better reservoir for oxygen.

KAYE: Families pay $411 a month for each child enrolled here. Parents are desperate for good news and in sessions like this one, they get it. Ms. DOMAN: And you've all made some lovely changes. We have one --

KAYE: For 45 minutes, parents who had once been told their kids had irreparable brain damage heard that their children were improving, thanks to the intensive therapy. Among the successes, one child cited for impressive chest growth. Ms. DOMAN: -- and that's Kathryn Blackburn. Mr. DOMAN: The vast majority of children we see make major changes. Perhaps 75% will make real progress. The number who will get totally well obviously are going to be substantially smaller than that. Maybe 20%. Children who couldn't move who now crawl. Children who could crawl but not creep will now creep. Children who could creep but couldn't walk now walk. And children who start at zero and who are now running and jumping.

KAYE: The week is coming to a close. Families are returning home with new instructions. Jean Blackburn is also learning what to do next. She is told the respirator should still be a key part of Kathryn's therapy because it was responsible for her chest growth. It's an evaluation which doctors in Los Angeles find troubling. Dr. WILLIAM GOLDIE, neurologist: You know the setting in which you get large chests is when the lungs fail, emphysema. So that's naive. That doesn't make any sense. You don't get a large chest when you breathe better. You breathe better when you breathe better. Dr. ROBERT JACOBS, pediatrician: Children with chronic lung disease have large chests. They certainly are not breathing better. Dr. GOLDIE: Cystic fibrosis, you get these kids with huge chests who can't breathe.

KAYE: At Children's Hospital at Los Angeles, neurologists William Goldie and pediatrician Robert Jacobs reflect the low esteem the medical establishment has for the Institutes. Dr. GOLDIE: We don't know what it is about the nervous system that allows one person to recover and the other not. We don't know. KAYE: If you don't know, how do you know that patterning doesn't work? Dr. GOLDIE: The experience has demonstrated that it's not any better than just more or less leaving them alone.

Dr. GOLDIE: Goldie wanted to make sure we saw a patient of his. Seven year old Jacqueline Rodriguez suffers from viral encephalitis, the same disease that crippled Kathryn Blackburn. Goldie says she is regaining her eyesight and making a slow recovery. Dr. GOLDIE: Most of it has just been pure time. She been on a respirator tied to the bed for four months. So this is a case in point where time is a pure factor that's allowed her to recover. KAYE: Would these children heal anyway? Mr. DOMAN: Oh, good lord, good lord. I mean that's the weakest of all protests. Would people with appendicitis get well anyway? No, it isn't impossible for a child to go out -- the brain is an astonishing, astonishing, astonishing thing. But I think it's safe to say that if we've seen a child who by five years of age can't move or make sounds, I do not think they traditionally -- I've lived in the (unintelligible) with 15,000 of them nose to nose over the past 45 years, and I have never seen that happen, not even once.

Dr. GOLDIE: Glenn Doman says he'd welcome objective research, but complains no one's willing to supply a control group. He refuses to conduct a study at the Institutes because then he would have to deprive some children, the control group, of the treatment he is convinced works. But Doman is also criticized outside the medical establishment. Fifty percent of families enrolled at the Institutes drop out after two years. Karen Duncanwood and her 12 year old son Ryan who has cerebral palsy are among the dropouts. The Duncanwoods of Whittier, California, participated in the program for nearly three years. Duncanwood believes the Institutes oversell the treatment. KAREN DUNCANWOOD: I just think that the program works for some kids with certain kinds of brain conditions. It does not work for others. And I don't think we understand, I don't think the Institutes understands why it succeeds with some kids and not with others.

KAYE: Brian made improvements while on the therapy. He continues to improve without it. His mother says the program wasn't worth the effort. Ms. DUNCANWOOD: The gains he was making were minimal, and the effort was astronomical. And the gap between those two was too hard on our family as a whole.

KAYE: Jean Blackburn's spirits were lifted by her trip to Philadelphia. She is aware of the criticisms the Institutes have received, but she has no doubt the therapy they are prescribing is curing her little daughter. KAYE: What about the future, where do you see the sky, and what are your goals for her? Ms. BLACKBURN: Well, I'll call you when I get there. I've got a lot of goals for her, you know. I got all the hope in the world for her. She's come this far. We'll see. Stargazing MacNEIL: Last week was filled with stories of signs and portents. Our man of signs and portents, Roger Rosenblatt, has gazed into his own crystal ball and tells us what he sees.

ROGER ROSENBLATT: Citizens who approve of Ronald Reagan may be dismayed to learn that the President consulted the stars to direct his decisions. Those who disapprove of the President may be surprised to learn that his decisions have been governed by any principle at all. But why there should be general national shock over this matter is baffling. Former White House Chief of Staff Donald Regan reveals in a book that the President and Mrs. Reagan are superstitious. The country roars with derision, or shakes its worried head as if superstition were unthinkable among normal, reasonable people. As if you did not avoid walking under a ladder whenever possible. When did you last open an umbrella in the house? Superstition is really a wonderful way for the mind to employ itself. Almost anything can be used to determine good or bad luck. Take this month of May, for example. Thanks to the ancient Romans there is a firm taboo against getting married in May. Marry in May and you'll rue the day. Thus to this day millions of people, not just Romans, wait until June to tie their knots. Reasonable, sensible, logical people. Who also do not, if they can help it, break mirrors, lest they suffer seven years bad luck. Or permit black cats to cross their paths. Nor will they encourage three on a match. Lucky in cards, unlucky in love. You've heard that sworn by people as reasonable as Descartes, as solid as yourself. The same people who wear chains and amulets and who delight in the discovery of four leaf clovers, who will not step on a crack for fear of breaking their mother's back. Or do most anything at all Friday the 13th. So why the frightful fuss over President Reagan reliance on the stars? Should America panic that its leader wants a bit of bloomin' luck to accompany the burdensome activities of office? It isn't as if we've seen him pacing the White House roof howling in a nightdress after all. And Presidents are known for certain oddities. Johnson for his bedroom visits, Nixon for his summer fires. If Jimmy Carter had been carrying a rabbit's foot, perhaps the famous attack rabbit would not have attacked. Not that I'm saying that one should feel not the slightest alarm in discovering that for the past seven years the world may have been guided in part by a medium in San Francisco. Only that superstition per se is not the most unheard of thing we've ever heard of. And Presidents have as much right to it as you and I. I will remind you that this is still a democracy in which the highest as well as the lowest has the right to behave unreasonably from time to time. When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are. And I will also remind you that it was Ronald, not Nancy, who relied on astrology. Ronald simply relied on Nancy, hardly making him the first person to be guided by love, the sweetest superstition of the lot. In the evenings on the White House porch, did she gaze upwards as he gazed at her? And did he sing, ''Are the stars out tonight? I can't tell if it's cloudy or bright. 'Cause I only have eyes for you, dear. '' Recap WOODRUFF: Taking a final look at the main stories of this Monday. Attorney General Edwin Meese fired his chief spokesman for not defending him aggressively enough. Surgeon General C. Everett Koop issued a report calling nicotine an addictive drug, as addictive as heroin or cocaine. And inmates ended a three day siege at an Oklahoma prison with the release of all hostages. Good night, Robin. MacNEIL: Good night, Judy. That's the NewsHour tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.