The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

RAY SUAREZ: Good evening. I'm Ray Suarez. On the NewsHour tonight, as six states hold presidential primaries, Jim Lehrer interviews the man who is about to lock up the Democratic nomination, Vice President Al Gore. We will devote the entire program to that interview, right after our summary of the news this Tuesday.

NEWS SUMMARY

RAY SUAREZ: Vice President Gore defended his call for campaign finance reform today. He said it's not a question of tactics, but values. And he again acknowledged mistakes in his fund-raising four years ago. The comments came during an extensive interview with the NewsHour in Tennessee. We'll have it in its entirety right after this News Summary. The Vice President cast a vote for himself today in the Tennessee Democratic primary. It was one of six southern states holding presidential contests. In Texas, Former President Bush voted on the Republican side for his son, the governor. George W. Bush voted last week by absentee ballot. Gore and Bush were set to win enough delegates to clinch their nominations. The United States and Britain agreed today to share the data on decoding human genetics with scientists everywhere. President Clinton and Britain's Prime Minister Blair set the policy for government laboratories, and they urged private companies to follow suit. The policy means companies won't be allowed to patent individual genes. At the White House, government scientists said it's critical to keep the data open to everyone.

SPOKESMAN: The analogy has been used that this is like the periodic table of the elements for human biology. We are determining here right now in a rather historic way the 100,000 entries in that periodic table, which are the human genes. Just as I think you would argue that having had the periodic table for chemistry in some way only available to some people or with patents filed on parts of it wouldn't necessarily have been good for that field, I think you can make the same argument here for genome.

RAY SUAREZ: Several private firms want to decode the human genome, patent their findings, and sell them. Their stocks fell after today's announcement, and took the broader markets with them. The NASDAQ Index dropped 200 points to close at 4706, a loss of more than 4%. The Dow Jones Industrial Average lost 135 to finish at 9811. The group that cloned Dolly the sheep has now cloned pigs. The British pharmaceutical company PPL Therapeutics made the announcement today. The company said it cloned five healthy piglets from an adult sow. They were born earlier this month in Blacksburg, Virginia. Scientists say genetically altered pigs may someday become a source of organ and cell transplants for humans. In Vietnam today, Defense Secretary Cohen said he envisions a day of much closer ties with the communist state. We have this report from Vera Frankl of Associated Press Television News.

VERA FRANKL: U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen spent the second day of his historic visit to Vietnam engaged in top-level meetings in the country's capital, Hanoi. Starting with the Vietnamese foreign minister, Cohen delivered the Clinton administration's hopes of a gradual approach to building a military relationship. Cohen suggested starting with joint projects like removing old land mines, and environmental studies to find ways of improving Vietnam's flood control. The two countries restored relations five years ago, and since then have hinted at joint research on the effects of agent orange, the chemical defoliant used by U.S. forces in Vietnam. But even as he met the country's president, Tran Duc Luong, Cohen brought no apologies for the war in which the communist North defeated U.S.-backed South Vietnam.

COHEN: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

VERA FRANKL: Cohen also urged Vietnam to make peace with China. Beijing is set to increase its standing in a new regional cooperative, but its acrimonious dealings with Vietnam in the past may influence its prosperity in the future.

RAY SUAREZ: Cohen's visit is the first by a defense secretary since the Vietnam War ended 25 years ago. Back in this country, a Florida judge threw out the state's school voucher law today. It was the nation's first statewide program to help children leave the worst public schools for private schools. Governor Jeb Bush championed the effort, but the judge ruled the state constitution bars the use of tax dollars to pay for private education. The state plans to appeal. A former U.S. Olympic executive has agreed to plead guilty to tax fraud. Alfredo Lamont was the first Olympic official charged in the scandal involving the selection of Salt Lake City as the site of the 2002 winter games. Lamont resigned last year. Salt Lake bid officials allegedly gave cash, gifts, and scholarships to members of the International Olympic Committee. That's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to a NewsMaker interview with Vice President Gore.

NEWSMAKER

RAY SUAREZ: Jim Lehrer's interview with Vice President Gore was conducted this morning at the Forks River Elementary School in Elmwood, Tennessee. It's the place where Mr. Gore, who is officially a resident of Smith County voted today

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Vice President, good morning. Welcome.

AL GORE: Thank you, Jim. Thanks for coming to Smith County.

JIM LEHRER: I'm delighted to be here.

Governor Bush has said that it's a joke that you're making campaign finance reform an issue in this campaign. Is it a joke?

AL GORE: Well, it certainly is not, and it's not so much that I'm making it an issue as that the American people have made it an issue. The American people have insisted in their support for reform, also their support for John McCain's candidacy, those who did support him, Bill Bradley's candidacy, and those who heard my statements about campaign finance reform. I think there is a heartsickness for change in our country and a demand for change. And I am trying to honor that demand by the American people. I feel very strongly about it myself. I think that our democracy is in jeopardy because of the overbearing influence of special interest money in campaigns. I think the introduction of television commercials in recent decades has accentuated the danger posed by big money and campaigns. And I favor dramatic reforms, eliminating all of the so-called "soft money" special interest contributions, also eliminating the 30-second and 60-second TV ads. That would have to be done on a voluntary basis by agreement between Governor Bush and myself, and instead of running these TV ads have debates twice a week. And I've also called for joint opening meetings before undecided voters. And as for the regular debates, I think they should be on a different issue each time. We could announce it in advance and invite people to join in. And I would love for you to host one of those debates, Jim. Would the NewsHour be willing to do that?

JIM LEHRER: Absolutely. Absolutely.

AL GORE: I accept your invitation.

JIM LEHRER: All right. I accept your - I accept your acceptance.

AL GORE: All right.

JIM LEHRER: The Governor says you have no credibility on this issue because of what you did in 1996. How do you respond to that?

AL GORE: Well, I've acknowledged my mistakes, and the - the '96 campaign saw both political parties pressing the limits, and I think that it demonstrated the pressures that all campaigns are under in the current system and the need for change. Now, the fact is when I first represented this county here in Tennessee 24 years ago, I proposed full public financing of all federal elections, and I still believe that's ultimately going to be the solution to this problem. But as an interim step, I strongly support the McCain-Feingold legislation, and over the last quarter century I've sponsored or cosponsored more than a dozen major campaign finance reform bills. And yet we don't have to wait for a law to be passed. We can honor the demand of the American people for change by using this campaign as an unprecedented opportunity to change the way we approach the election process. After all, Americans have been turning away from the voting booth. Here it is election day and you can see the polling place right down the hall in this little school building here. The turnout is low today - obviously there are a lot of reasons for that on this election. But in the general elections that we have the turnout has been going steadily down. Now, why is that? I think it's because people feel that the dialogue in campaigns is artificial and contrived. They see these 30-second TV ads and people tune in, in the last days of a campaign just about the time when the ads turn negative, and they conclude everybody running is a dirty dog, and they don't want anything to do with it. But just imagine for a moment what it would be like - I'm serious in making this proposal - imagine what it would be like if my proposal was accepted, and we had debates every Tuesday and Thursday night, 8 PM, with a different issue announced in advance each time. You'd see civics teachers and community leaders conducting forums, boning up on the subject matter of each debate, and getting into it, and you'd also see both of the candidates really digging deeper into the search for good, new solutions for these problems, and I think it would be so exciting to bring more people back into our democracy; that's what people want.

JIM LEHRER: But what they're going to get, according to what is already on the table, is attacks back and forth. The one against you is - you say you made mistakes in '96; Governor Bush and others say wait a minute, those were violations of the law. What do you see - for instance, in the Buddhist Temple situation, and the phone calls that you made from your office, those are the mistakes that you've acknowledged you've made. What were the mistakes? What did you do wrong?

AL GORE: In pressing the limits, of course, all of that's been investigated thoroughly three years ago, millions of dollars spent investigating it in congressional hearings, and all the rest. But that doesn't make it right. The fact that they found no - that the law was not violated on my part doesn't make it right. And it was a mistake for me to go to that Buddhist Temple. It was a mistake for me to make those telephone calls, but the damage from what both parties did in that campaign was not to the people running so much as to the system. And the question is how we change it; the question is not how we go back and pick over mistakes from years ago, but how we change it now. For example, Governor Bush is one of only a handful of candidates in history to evade the normal campaign finance limits and break out of the system. And just in the last few days John McCain has filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission about the last minute secretly-financed special interest attack ads where a couple of people came in with two and a half million dollars and dumped it into New York and California and Ohio in the last few days after the Bush campaign spent all of their money and couldn't fight John McCain within the limits, and I - you know - we can - we can make this campaign a point of departure to renew our democracy. I'm serious about this. And I'm going to take unilateral steps, whether he will join me or not. I'm going to have open meetings with undecided voters all over the country, and I'll stay there as long as anybody has a question. I've refused to accept PAC contributions, even though that's allowed under the current law. And I'm going to be making some other changes too.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Thompson from Tennessee, a Republican, who has always been an advocate, strong advocate of campaign finance reform, says he welcomes you to the fox hole now for campaign finance reform but he says before you can do that, there has to be accountability on the '96 things. And he says, for instance, and others have said, okay, Maria Hsia, a friend of yours, has been indicted and been convicted of a crime and as relates to the Buddhist Temple thing. What was different from what you did versus what she did?

AL GORE: Well, it was all the difference - I mean, the theory of this - first of all, I don't want to comment on an ongoing court case because it's in the appeal process, and she has been a friend and a supporter; and that was a hard day for her. But I don't want to comment on her ongoing case. The news report said that the theory of the prosecution was - that what they charged was that in the process of doing what she did she deceived the others that were a part of this and that others did not know. But the point again is, how do we change this going forward? Now, you know, like John McCain, I bring the passion born of personal experience to the battle for campaign finance reform, and John McCain and I are hardly unique. There are people in both political parties all over our political process who have been put into these situations where the pressure to raise money to do combat back and forth is such that the limits are pressed. Let's end it. Let's change it. Let's ban the so-called "soft money." I'm ready to do it right now. All Governor Bush has to say is yes, one word, three letters, one syllable, yes, and then it is done.

JIM LEHRER: Well, here's what he said - quote - about your having come out in favor of campaign finance reform - the interview with the "New York Times." He says, "I think the Vice President is somebody who will say anything to get elected - at least that's my interpretation of how he handles things." That is in relationship to your -

AL GORE: I don't think that the American people really care that much about personal attacks back and forth. I think that what they want is change. They know that we've got something not only special but really unique here in this country, and they know that it's in danger. You look at these other countries - like take South Africa, for example; they didn't have freedom. All of a sudden they get it; then they get a 95 percent voter turnout, and people wait in line seven miles long. Other countries in Eastern Europe and Central Europe you see the same thing. They're just thrilled at having an approximation of what we've had for more than 200 years now. And yet here in the birthplace of representative democracy in the modern world we have begun to turn away from our process because of these excesses, and the American people don't care about these - about attacks on the individual candidates. What they want is change. I am for that change. Now, I want to emphasize - this is not a new position for me. I have advocated it for a quarter century now. And yet the passion that I bring to it is heightened by the experiences that I've gone through and by the demands that the American people have been making throughout this campaign year and throughout the last several years for dramatic and fundamental change. Make no mistake, they're serious about it.

JIM LEHRER: In other words, you're not doing it to inoculate yourself from questions -

AL GORE: This is not a question of tactics; this is a question of values. And the American people are responsible for putting this issue on the political agenda. I am proud and honored to hold the banner high. It ought to be a bipartisan effort, and I am offering Governor Bush an opportunity to make it a bipartisan effort. I'm going to push it no matter what. And I'll tell you this, Jim. One consequence of raising this banner high during the election campaign is that if I am entrusted with the presidency in the election, I am going to have - I'm going to claim and I will have a mandate to go to the Congress and say, now, listen here, the American people have spoken on this, and we have dilly-dallied around on this - all of us - for long enough; let's make this - let's make these changes and get rid of the soft money and honor our democracy by putting the people back in charge and getting these special interests out of the driver's seat.

JIM LEHRER: You have questioned Governor Bush's experience to be President of the United States. What exactly do you mean?

AL GORE: I've raised one simple question, and that is: When you look at the choice we face for our economic plan, where we go in the future, we're at a fork in the road. We can continue going along the road of progress, paying down the debt, fixing Social Security and Medicare, investing more in our people - keeping our prosperity going - or we can take the other fork in the road that Governor Bush has recommended, which is embodied by a $2.1 trillion risky tax scheme that would eliminate -- not only eliminate the surplus -and I'm talking about the non-Social Security surplus - not only eliminate the surplus but spend a trillion dollars in excess of the surplus, which would put us right back in the deficits again, cause deep cuts in the funding for education, and health care, and the environment, and crime control, and put pressure on the Social Security system to raise the retirement age, as he has refused to rule out, to privatize the Social Security in part, as he has recommended, and I think that - I think that the - putting forward a plan like that does raise the question of whether he has the experience to be President - because look at the experience the country has had over the last two decades. We tried that approach and what happened? It quadrupled our national debt; it gave us deficits annually of $300 billion plus; it put pressure on interest rates and put the business community in a straitjacket because whenever the economy felt some strength and they went out to borrow for expansion or new hiring, the combination of private borrowing and massive government deficit financing automatically put such pressure on the credit market that it made every potential economic recovery an ambush. We hit the trip wire of high interest rates and fell back into recession - a triple dip recession. Then President Clinton and I came in seven years ago and got rid of that approach, took a new approach - fiscal responsibility - balanced the budget and better - we turned the biggest deficits into the biggest surpluses. We've invested in our people; we've turned the worst recession since the 1930's, which the Bush/Quayle years gave us, and instead turned it into 21 million new jobs, and the strongest economic recovery in the entire history of the United States of America - with low inflation and low unemployment - both at the same time - the lowest African-American and Latino unemployment rates in the history of the United States, more new small businesses, highest private home ownership. Now, if you come before the American people - let's say it's you - and you said, hey, look, I've reviewed this record and I want to get rid of what's working and go back to what produced a catastrophic failure, I would say, well, you making a proposal like that raises a question - do you have the experience to be President?

JIM LEHRER: But you mentioned President Clinton. President Clinton was governor of Arkansas before he became President. Governor Bush is governor of Texas now. You're not saying - are you - that if you're a governor, that is - that doesn't give you the experience to be President?

AL GORE: Of course not. No. Then Governor Clinton had emerged as a preeminent leader among the governors - chairman of the Conference - and he negotiated the Goals 2000, and he demonstrated during his service over a long period of time as governor a capacity to come up with innovative new approaches. And, of course, the Texas Governor's Office is different from the Arkansas Governor's Office in any case.

JIM LEHRER: But are you seeing - I'm just trying to understand what you - are you seeing that George W. Bush is just not up to the job?

AL GORE: I'm not saying that. I'm saying that - that will be a conclusion that the American people will either draw or not draw. What I am saying is that anyone who proposes an economic plan that would spend a trillion dollars more than the combined surplus invites the question does he have the experience to be President? Anyone who proposes an approach to Social Security that would do grave damage to the most successful program ever enacted in the United States invites that question. Anyone who puts forward a Medicare proposal that would privatize partof Medicare and lead to a two-track system and threaten the future of Medicare invites that question. Now, don't just take my word for it. Listen to the words of John McCain in the Republican primary. he said - and I quote - Governor Bush does not put one penny into Social Security; he doesn't put one penny into Medicare; he doesn't put one penny into paying down the debt. Now, those who believe that it makes sense for us to go back into debt and start increasing the debt again the way we did during the Bush/Quayle years, if that's what they want, then they won't find the question that I have raised very relevant. But if they believe that our economic future is important and that we can learn from the experience of the last few years, then I think we will look at that question.

JIM LEHRER: Governor Bush says there's a philosophical issue involved here, and the issue is this: That there's a surplus, a federal surplus.

AL GORE: Right.

JIM LEHRER: It belongs to the taxpayers. Why not give some of the money back and let them decide how to spend it, rather than to keep it and use it in Washington?

AL GORE: Well, it is your money, but the debt is your debt also, and it's your Social Security; it's your Medicare. It's your environment. It's your health care system. Now, do you want to borrow more money and go back into debt in order to give a risky tax scheme to the few? I personally think that it is - see, I think there's a connection, Jim, between the two issues that we have discussed so far on your program: campaign finance reform, on the one hand; and Governor Bush's economic proposal on the other hand. The American people do not want this risky tax scheme; they do not. Trust me on this. I've asked them. Others have asked them. What Governor Bush has proposed is a far larger tax scheme than anything that Newt Gingrich and the congressional Republican leadership proposed, and their proposal was soundly rejected by the American people. Now, why is he proposing that? It would give $50,000 to those - to the richest Americans and virtually nothing to the rest. Why is he proposing that? Well, he says that it's evidence of a courageous decision to do something that the American people don't want. Well, maybe, but maybe it's also relevant that while it's the lowest priority for the American people, it just happens to be the highest priority for the group that represents the donors of all the soft money that floods into campaigns from special interests. And that's a fact. Now, the fact that - the fact that the soft money contributors have as much influence as they do in the current political system means that some people are going to listen to them more attentively than to the American people. I don't think that's necessarily evidence of courage; I think it's evidence of why we need to change the campaign finance system so that we can change the kinds of proposals that are put forth and make them more consistent with what the American people want. We have an opportunity right now at this mountaintop moment - with the largest surpluses in history - the strongest economy in history - to really - to save Social Security and Medicare, to make the revolutionary advances in our public schools that are necessary to prepare for this information age, to expand access to health care, to clean up the environment in ways that produce millions of new jobs, to bring the crime rate down further, and to get control of this drug problem in the country. We can use this extraordinary mountaintop moment to secure a very bright future - or we can squander it.

JIM LEHRER: Are you saying, Mr. Vice President, that Governor Bush has literally said, hey, Billy Bob, you give us money and I'll give you a tax break, that this man is for sale?

AL GORE: No, no, no, no. No. I don't - that's not - I'm not saying it in a crass way like that - and I don't think that's the way it operates. I do think that if you spend so much time with the people that finance campaigns under the current laws and the current system, you are naturally going to hear more from them than you do from -

JIM LEHRER: But that doesn't -

AL GORE: -- the average citizen.

JIM LEHRER: Doesn't that apply to you as well? People contribute to your campaign.

AL GORE: Absolutely.

JIM LEHRER: The soft money of the Democratic Party.

AL GORE: Absolutely.

JIM LEHRER: Same rules apply?

AL GORE: Absolutely. I have taken - I've rejected PAC funding, even though it's legal under the law. I have the smallest average contribution of any candidate in the race, and I spend my time out in open meetings with the people and partly to make sure that I spend my time with the people who are - who are representing the viewpoints of the American people, but make no mistake about it, Jim, and this is not just a problem in presidential campaigning; it's a problem in Senate and House campaigns, and governor's campaigns and state legislature across the board - if you have candidates who in order to buy all of these TV and radio ads are spending so much time with the donors of special interest - so-called "soft money" - you know that they're going to be vulnerable to having their opinions shaped by all of the communication they get from -

JIM LEHRER: And you're not immune from that, any more than George W. Bush, are you?

AL GORE: No. But I am - I am taking steps unilaterally to avoid that. And I'm having these open meetings out there and spending my time with the voters, and I'm inviting him to join me in joint open meetings with voters at debates twice a week in lieu of the TV and radio ads. Look, he's ahead in the polls. Theoretically, it would be to his advantage to just have an agreement where there are no radio and TV commercials - 30 second - 60 second ads, and instead just go before the American people in debates and joint open meetings before undecided voters.

JIM LEHRER: But you're going to continue to take money, are you not?

AL GORE: I'm going to take steps to - I'm going to take steps to limit what my campaign does within the - within the laws as they exist.

JIM LEHRER: But the basic - the basic thing between all campaign contributions is I give money to Al Gore or George W. Bush or Sammy Sue Smith because that candidate is going to do things that I support. That's not going to change, is it?

AL GORE: I think that - I think that it's all in how you approach it. If you make it plain that here's my approach, here's what I'm talking about here, and this is what I'm going to propose, take it or leave it - if you want to support this agenda, then I'll welcome your support - then I think that's the way to do it.

JIM LEHRER: That's the new world, though, isn't it? That isn't the world we're sitting in right now.

AL GORE: Well, you've got to make the best of the rules as they exist, but I want to change the rules, and I think we can change the rules right now without waiting for Congress to pass a law. We can take unilateral steps to do it.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. Attach this question. Gasoline prices are on the way up. One of the things that Governor Bush has suggested - the possibility at least - of - of rolling over all or part - rolling back over all or part of the 1993 gasoline tax 4.3 cent increase in the gasoline tax, and a lot of people call it the Gore tax, because you cast the tie vote on that. How do you feel - first of all - about rolling back that tax?

AL GORE: Well, first of all, I'm very proud of that vote. That vote was the tie-breaking vote, which ended up 51 to 50, by which we got rid of the Bush/Quayle economic catastrophe and put in place the economic recovery plan that has caused the strongest economy in the history of the United States. So I'm very, very proud of that vote, and, of course, you know, 4 cents a gallon is 1/5 of what the Texas tax on gasoline is - 20 cents a gallon - is he proposing to roll that back?

JIM LEHRER: You're not in favor of doing this?

AL GORE: Well, I - you know - I don't think that it is -

JIM LEHRER: Is it a problem? Do you consider -

AL GORE: I think that high gasoline prices definitely are a problem - absolutely.

JIM LEHRER: For whom?

AL GORE: For the people that have to buy the gasoline.

JIM LEHRER: What about those in the environment movement who say this is terrific because it'll cut consumption and that means cleaner air, et cetera?

AL GORE: Well, see, I think that the best way to use the tax code is to give incentives for the quicker introduction of the new technologies that will allow us to burn far less gasoline and other kinds of fuel. I've put forward the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles - for example - and here in a short time you're going to see some new advances in speeding up the introduction of the new technologies that are going to allow us to continue improving our standard of living without increasing pollution - indeed, while decreasing pollution. But now on the gasoline prices, a serious problem, and I've been involved in trying to get some relief there, and Secretary Richardson and others in the Clinton/Gore administration have been tentatively successful in persuading some of the large OPEC producers to change their policy and increase production, which will take the pressure off these short supplies and reduce the price at their next meeting.

JIM LEHRER: It's already been written that this could be a huge issue between you and Governor Bush in the fall campaign. Do you agree?

AL GORE: I don't know. I mean, I think any time gasoline prices are going up it's a matter for great concern.

JIM LEHRER: How important do you think the abortion issue should be in this campaign?

AL GORE: Well, given the fact that whoever is elected President will probably be appointing three Justices of the Supreme Court - maybe more - and shaping the opinion of the Supreme Court for the next thirty to forty years on the issue of a woman's right to choose - civil rights - and other issues - I think that it's very important. There's no question that there's a pretty clear contrast between my position and Governor Bush's position. I support a woman's right to choose, and I will not have it undermined or weakened or taken away. And he has obviously pledged to Pat Robertson that he will do his best to take away a woman's right to choose. He made it plain that he supports the extremist language of the Republican platform last time around, which doesn't even carve out any exceptions on this and will set out to appoint - he says - his favorite Justices - Justice Scalia - and that's a code for saying that he would appoint Justices that would overturn Roe V. Wade. It's just as clear to say that that's one of the main issues in this election. There's a lot of passion from both sides that's going into this.

JIM LEHRER: And just so we understand it straight on, you will not appoint anybody to the Supreme Court who would vote to overturn Roe V. Wade?

AL GORE: Now, Jim, you know better than that. I have said I wouldn't support - you can't even quit from smiling there - you know this stuff so well. I'm not going to have a litmus test for a Supreme Court nomination if I have the privilege of making appointments to the Supreme Court, but I will insist upon Justices who have an interpretation of the Constitution that's in keeping with the general philosophical approach that I share. You know, I believe the Constitution is a living and breathing document and that there are liberties found in the Constitution such as the right to privacy that spring from the document, itself, even though the Founders didn't write specific words saying this, this, and this, because we have interpreted our founding charter over the years and found deeper meanings in it, in light of the subsequent experience in American life of the last 211 years of our republic, and a strict constructionist, narrow-minded, harkening back to a literalist reading from 200 years ago, I think that's - I think that's a mistake. And I would certainly not want to appoint any Justices that took that approach.

JIM LEHRER: As a practical matter, Mr. Vice President, how in the world can you assure any voter that Roe V. Wade is going to be okay under a Gore administration if you're not going to even ask potential nominees what their position is on abortion?

AL GORE: It'll be okay. In a Gore administration it'll be okay.

JIM LEHRER: It'll be okay. All right. Okay.

AL GORE: I guarantee it.

JIM LEHRER: Gun control, what is the big difference, as you see it, between your position and that of Governor Bush?

AL GORE: He's - he's with the NRA - and I'm not. I believe that the horrible instances of violence that we have had in recent years involving guns demonstrate very clearly why we need common sense restrictions on things like mandatory child safety, trigger locks. When you have a six-year-old first grader killed in the classroom -

JIM LEHRER: How do you enforce that?

AL GORE: Mandatory trigger locks? You make it a law and enforce it.

JIM LEHRER: But you can't enforce it in somebody's home, can you?

AL GORE: Well, this - it would apply initially to all new handguns, and then - you know - you take it from there, but the other side is opposed to even that. They talk about voluntary measures. Well, you know, if first grade gun play is not serious enough, what does it take, kindergarten? There was a five-year-old with a loaded gun, firing on a playground before the horrible incident in Michigan that didn't really get much publicity until after the incident in Michigan, so there you've got a kindergartner. Is that enough for concern here? What about nursery school? I mean, it's ridiculous - really - I mean, I think it's absurd, and I mean, I favor a photo license I.D. requirement for the purchase of a new handgun. I favor closing the gun show loophole. In fact, I cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate to close this - the gun show loophole. I favor reinstatement of the three-day waiting period under the Brady Law - toughening of restrictions - toughening of enforcement on the guns laws - and toughening of penalties for violation of the gun law, and better enforcement. And when the NRA says they're not enforcing the current law and that's the answer to that, well, they've been in the Congress working to weaken enforcement of the current law - and they're calling the ATF jackbooted thugs and all of this, and of course, the horrible comment from their executive director the other day, which was just -

JIM LEHRER: He said that you and President Clinton don't mind a little violence and killing to further your interests.

AL GORE: Oh, gosh. You know, I've had the experience over and over again as Vice President over these last seven years of talking with families who have suffered from gun violence. Oh, gosh. You know, it's - I was in a hospital yesterday in Miami, and an emergency room nurse introduced me, and the event was on health care. She brought up the issue of gun violence in her introduction. And you know what you said - she said that they have doctors from Canada that come down on a rotating basis to Dade County to get training and had to treat gunshot wounds because they don't see them up there. They come down here, and they get plenty of experience here. You know, this has to be changed, and nobody is talking about taking guns away from owners or sportsmen. These are - these are red herrings that the NRA throws out as red flags. It's not right. Now, Governor Bush, by contrast, Jim, overturned the 150-year prohibition on concealed weapons in Texas, pushed through legislation to give the gun manufacturers more protections in the form of immunities from lawsuits for the people who are trying to get them to behave more responsibly, have opposed any new gun laws of the kind that the President and I had been proposing - had the strong support of the NRA. I mean, this is a clear issue in the campaign.

JIM LEHRER: Now, one thing that conventional wisdom has it now on differences between you and Governor Bush is that there's very little in the foreign affairs area to separate the two of you. Do you agree with that?

AL GORE: I don't know. I don't know what his views are on foreign affairs.

JIM LEHRER: Is it safe to assume that you support the initiatives - foreign policy initiatives now in place in the Clinton administration?

AL GORE: Oh, yes.

JIM LEHRER: Do you continue -

AL GORE: I have been an integral part of shaping those initiatives. I've been a part of the effort to bring about a peace treaty between Israel and Jordan - initial agreement between Israel and the Palestinians and to move forward the Israel/Syria process, to bring peace to Northern Ireland and to Bosnia and to Kosovo and to Haiti and to help with the transition to democracy in South Africa, to get the Kyoto agreement on global warming. If I'm entrusted with the presidency, I will seek to have that ratified by the Senate. I think global warming is a huge issue that has to be confronted. I have been a part of making the Nonproliferation Treaty permanent. I would - my first act as President - if I'm entrusted with the job - will be to resubmit the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty to the Senate. Now, there's a clear difference between Governor Bush and myself. He's opposed to the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. And I think that getting control of nuclear proliferation in part by banning nuclear testing around the world is a very important key to our future.

JIM LEHRER: Another issue that a lot of people are urging become an issue of debate between you and Governor Bush in this campaign is when should the United States intervene? When should we put the lives of young men and women - our young American men and women on the line, and I want to read something that President Clinton said a while ago - and see if he speaks for you in this - it's a doctrine for deciding this - in rough terms - whether you live in Africa or Central Europe or any other place - if somebody comes after innocent civilians and tries to kill them en masse because of their race, their ethnic background, or their religion, and it is within our power to stop it, we will stop it - end quote.

AL GORE: Well, he kind of walked back from that a little bit after - after the fact - and the impulse is a noble one and I share that - but let me give you my own criteria. I think we have to be satisfied, first of all, that we've exhausted every other means, short of military force, to reach our objective before we even consider military force. I think that we have to have a national security interest at stake, an American national security interest. Now, that can be defined not just in terms of geopolitics, real politics. We have national interests that are moral and values based, and that's included. Third, I think that we have to be satisfied that if military force is used, we can accomplish the objective with the use of military force. Fourth, we need to see whether or not we've got allies and partners who will help shoulder the burden and we're not going it alone. And, fifth, the expected cost of whatever we're undertaking has to be proportional to the objective that we're trying to reach. And having laid down those five criteria, I'd also like to add a realistic note that every one of these situations is kind of unique in and of itself and sometimes there are factors that come up that don't fit in a prefabricated policy box. And you have to take all of those into account also.

JIM LEHRER: Back to the experience question earlier, do you think George W. Bush has the experience to make those kinds of decisions?

AL GORE: I don't think it's for me to answer that question. I think it is a fair question. But I think that I'm obviously the least objective person in the world. You asked me whether or not he's to be given a - you know - a favorable rating on something that's critical to the choice for President - you can imagine what my answer is going to be. So I'm not going to try to answer that question. I think that's the essence of the decision that the voters will have to make.

JIM LEHRER: How important is it to you that you win this election?

AL GORE: Well, I believe very deeply in the recommendations that I'm making during this campaign. If what you're getting at is my own personal stake in this election -

JIM LEHRER: Yes.

AL GORE: -- I have to win this for myself. I don't - I don't have to have - I don't feel like I have to have the title or the victory for personal reasons at all. I do believe very strongly that the stakes are so high in this election. We have the opportunity to build on this historic progress we've been making, to create a start for the 21st century that really opens up all kinds of opportunities and possibilities for our children and grandchildren. I just became a grandfather eight months ago, and that - that gives you - you know - a new lease on the future. And all of us look toward the future in terms of our responsibility for those that come after us. And I think that what - the decisions that will be made by the next President during these coming four years are going to be so crucial. We've got to keep our prosperity going up - not squander it with a risky tax scheme. We've got to reach out and make sure that nobody is left behind. We need to continue closing the gap between rich and poor. In this information age when the majority of our businesses can't find trained, educated employees for the positions they have open, we've got to - we've got to have dramatic revolutionary improvements in our public schools, in the productivity of education, treating teachers like the professionals they are, setting higher standards, having accountability for results and giving them the resources and reforms that are needed. We've got to confront the environmental issues and expand access to health care and have restrictions on access to guns by the people who shouldn't have them and protect a woman's right to choose, and make our communities more livable. I -

JIM LEHRER: You can do this? You can do all of this?

AL GORE: Absolutely. Our country can.

JIM LEHRER: But you, Al Gore, President, can do all of this?

AL GORE: The American people can do all these things -- if we have the right kinds of tools in place, if we don't squander our prosperity and put it at risk to give - you know - on this risky tax approach that the American people don't - don't want - if we listen to the American people and unlock the potential of our country and make these sensible but sweeping changes, yes, I think our country can reach these goals. It's an unprecedented opportunity, and I'm excited about it.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Vice President, thank you very much.

AL GORE: Thank you, Jim.

JIM LEHRER: Governor Bush has agreed to a similar in-depth interview with the NewsHour. We are now working on the scheduling.

RECAP

RAY SUAREZ: Again, the other major stories of this Tuesday. The United States and Britain have agreed to share the data on decoding human genetics with scientists everywhere. And the group that cloned Dolly the sheep announced it has now cloned pigs too. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Ray Suarez. Thanks and good night.