The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH:Good evening. I'm Elizabeth Farnsworth. Jim Lehrer is on vacation. On the NewsHour tonight, Jeffrey Kaye on the LA shootings; Elizabeth Brackett on hatred versus free speech in Illinois; and a look at the U.S. role in Colombia's drug wars. It all follows our summary of the news this Wednesday.

NEWS SUMMARY

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: A tornado struck without warning today in downtown Salt Lake City, killing one person and injuring at least 100 others, the mayor's office said. Witnesses said the swirling cloud was like an immense vacuum. It sucked windows from buildings, spewing glass into the streets and pulled down walls and uprooted trees. Wind speeds were thought to have been at least 100 miles an hour. The National Weather Service said the tornado was a freak occurrence. Only two strike Utah in a year. Buford O'Neill Furrow, Jr. surrendered today to the FBI in Las Vegas. He is suspected of yesterday's shooting at a Jewish community center in suburban Los Angeles. Five people were wounded, including three children. A five-year-old victim remained in critical but stable condition. A federal prosecutor said Furrow would also be charged with the murder of a postal worker who was shot and killed near the community center an hour later. We'll have more on the story right after the News Summary. Pakistan fired a missile at Indian aircraft today near the site where India downed a Pakistani surveillance plane yesterday. A Pakistani military spokesman said his forces fired a surface-to-air missile at Indian fighter jets escorting helicopters with journalists aboard. They were headed for yesterday 's crash site, but turned back. The long-time rival nations have been fighting over Kashmir, which both claimed. Each tested nuclear weapons last year. North Korea has finished building a new long range missile and is weighing the pros and cons of a test launch. South Korea's intelligence chief made that claim today at a parliamentary hearing in Seoul. He said the weapon would be capable of hitting Hawaii and Alaska. The United States, South Korea, and Japan have warned of severe economic consequences if a test launch were to occur. North Korea is impoverished and depends heavily on foreign food aid. The last full solar eclipse of the millennium darkened large parts of the globe today. It began on the southwestern tip of England this morning and then cast a giant shadow across Europe and Asia. We have this report from Paul Davies of Independent Television News.

PAUL DAVIES: These images filmed from the Mir Space Station show the giant shadow cast by the Moon, the dull gray area in the left of the picture sweeping across Central Europe. From Britain the shadow traveled on to France where interest had been heightened by predictions that the eclipse would coincide with the destruction of Paris. But when the sun re-emerged, the French capital appeared to be still in-tact. Germany was next on the line of total eclipse, though here uncooperative weather threatened to spoil the spectacle. That didn't stop tens of thousands cramming into the center of Stuttgart, where a giant television screen showed what was happening above the storm clouds as daylight suddenly disappeared. Italy just missed out on witnessing a total eclipse. The Pope was one of many thousands using special glass to protect his eyes before being taken up in a plane for a slightly closer view. In Hungary, people were treated to the full spectacle. Ancient festivities were reenacted while the country's borders were closed temporarily to prevent smugglers taking advantage. Romania enjoyed the longest total eclipse, the sun obscured for two minutes, twenty-seven seconds As a concession to old superstitions, a giant cross was set on fire in the center of Bucharest, the blaze traditionally thought to cleanse the country of the evil that walks in the eclipse's shadow. In Jerusalem and across the Islamic world the eclipse was greeted with religious ceremonies. In Egypt, the spectacle in the sky meant traditional tourist attractions were temporarily forgotten. Possibly the best place to see the total eclipse today was Turkey, where clear skies meant perfect viewing conditions.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Insulation in nearly 700 U.C. commercial planes will have to be replaced because of tough new flame retardant standards, the Federal Aviation Administration said today. The replacements will be made over four years and apply to aircraft made by the former McDonnell-Douglas Corporation, which is now owned by Boeing. The FAA order was in response to the crash of a Swissair flight off Nova Scotia last year. Smoke was reported in the cockpit. Alcoa offered to by Reynolds Metals Company today for $5.6 billion in cash and stock. A Reynolds spokesman had no immediate comment. Alcoa is the world's largest aluminum maker. Reynolds is number three. The combined operation would have revenues of about $21 billion annually. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to the LA shootings; hatred and free speech in Illinois; and the U.S. and Colombia.

FOCUS - HATRED

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Fear and hatred in Los Angeles. The suspect in yesterday's shooting at a Jewish community center is in custody tonight in Las Vegas. Jeffrey Kaye of KCET-Los Angeles reports.

JEFFREY KAYE: 37-year-old Buford O'Neal Furrow surrendered to FBI agents this morning local time. He told them he had taken two taxicabs to get to Las Vegas from Los Angeles.

In LA, Police Chief Bernard Parks briefed reporters on Furrow's arrest:

CHIEF BERNARD PARKS: At 8:55 AM suspect Buford Furrow surrendered to the Las Vegas FBI office. It appears that the suspect left the Los Angeles area via taxicab that took him to the area of the California/Nevada border. At that time he traveled via second cab to the Las Vegas office of the FBI. Representatives from the U.S. Attorney's Office, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office are currently working together and will confer regarding the most appropriate charges and venued as relates to the suspect. Detectives from robbery-homicide division and Devonshire detectives are investigating the homicide of the U.S. Postal Service employee that occurred shortly after the assault on the Jewish community center. There's a possibility that these crimes may be connected. Detectives from robbery-homicide, agents from FBI and ATF are currently en route to Las Vegas to conduct a follow-up investigation.

REPORTER: Can you tell us whether this man operated alone or if you have any reason to believe he had help, and can you also comment on reports that he had links to a group called "The Order" up North.

CHIEF BERNARD PARKS: The information we have at this time is that he was working alone. The investigation, as we go through it and get the thoroughness of it, will determine what its linkage is with other organizations and other people, but at this time it appears he worked alone.

JEFFREY KAYE: The Seattle Times reported today that Furrow had ties to the white

Supremacist group known as the "Aryan Nation." David Lehrer of the Anti-Defamation League, has been tracking the groups Furrow is said to have been involved with.

DAVID LEHRER: It's the small circle that has this paranoid and distorted view of the world.

JEFFREY KAYE: What can you tell me about Buford?

DAVID LEHRER: Buford apparently has a relationship with -- was living with if not married to Debbie Matthews, who's the widow of a fellow named Robert Matthews. Robert Matthews was the ideological and political leader of a group called the Silent Brotherhood. The Silent Brotherhood is an offshoot of the Aryan Nation. They all-- that's the group up in Northern Idaho. In 1984, they went on this rampage; they robbed armored cars of $4 1/2 million, most of which has never been accounted for. They engaged in bank heists; they murdered a talk show host, a Jewish talk show host in Denver, Allen Berg. They have this track record of this just bizarre view of the world that the time had come for them to act out and overthrow the government. They didn't overthrow the government.

JEFFREY KAYE: In the van that eventually led police to Furrow was a copy of a book said to contain racist themes. Police found the van yesterday afternoon in a parking lot. The van was filled with containers of ammunition. Police said Furrow had abandoned it after the shooting and hijacked a green Toyota at gunpoint, which he left at a motel. SWAT teams in riot gear searched the motel for four hours but Furrow eluded the manhunt. Yesterday's shooting at the North Valley Jewish Community Center left five people injured; they included three young boys, a teenaged girl, and a sixty-eight-year-old female receptionist, who was treated and released last night. The most seriously injured -- a five-year-old boy -- remained in critical but stable condition today at Children's Hospital in Los Angeles. Around the country security was tightened at Jewish community centers, synagogues, and schools. In Los Angeles, with the exception of the center where yesterday's shootings took place, Jewish community centers have remained open. Private guards and local police are being extra vigilant.

JEFFREY KAYE: So you'll be coming around here more regularly?

OFFICER KELLY ARTZ: Yes, for a while -- till things calm down a little bit.

JEFFREY KAYE: I see.

JEFFREY KAYE: -- Jeffrey Rouss, whose organization oversees the LA centers -- says the North Hills Center will return to normal as soon as possible.

JEFFREY ROUSS: Well, right now, the center is closed. We're just beginning to be able to return into the building and we're cleaning it up so that the evidence, the fact of the attack will be eliminated, so when our members in the community returns to the center, it will be as they

remembered it.

JEFFREY KAYE: Parents we spoke to outside another Jewish community center in Los Angeles said they were relieved the suspect was in custody, but they had mixed feelings about returning their children to this center. Some were initially reluctant to bring their kids here, but said they were determined not to be made victims.

JANE BARTELL: Well, what, are we going to stay home and locked down, in which case I want a gun too, if that's how we're going to live, and, you know, our children ride their bikes in the neighborhood; they don't have the personal freedom that we had as children, and so if they can't come to camp free, where can they go?

JEFFREY KAYE: Layne Murphy said she insisted that counselors not remove the word "Jewish" from a school bus being used on a field trip.

LAYNE MURPHY: They were putting plastic stickers over the camp bus, covering the Jewish with "Youth Bus." And the first thing I did when I got here this morning was I took those off, and I was proud to have been able to do that, and I was glad that my children saw me do that.

JEFFREY KAYE: At the Jewish Federation of Los Angeles, an umbrella group, security

Has always been tight. President John Fishelsaid community organizations, both Jewish and non-Jewish, are coming together after yesterday's tragedy.

JOHN FISHEL: If, indeed, there is a silver lining, pulling together the broadest-based coalition, regardless of religious belief, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of origin or ideology, that is a silver lining.

JEFFREY KAYE: And while this latest incident has focused attention on hate crimes, Lehrer says these incidents are not necessarily increasing, they're just becoming more violent.

DAVID LEHRER: The general number of hate crimes hasn't been increasing appreciably. There are up ticks and down ticks, depending-- from year to year. They are approximately in the same ballpark over the past three or four years. In fact, they have been declining from their height of five or six years ago, but they're becoming more virulent, and that isn't part of function of the fact that these folks are so isolated, we think, and feel that they have to act out.

JEFFREY KAYE: Community leaders have called a meeting for later this week for residents of Granada Hills, where the shooting took place.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: This afternoon President Clinton called the shooting deeply disturbing. He said, quote, I can only hope this latest incident will intensify our resolve to make America a place of healing across the lines that divide us.

FOCUS - HATE SPEECH

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Last month there was a shooting spree in the Midwest that also seemed fueled by racial and religious hatred. That episode sparked a debate about the difference between hate speech and free speech. Elizabeth Brackett of WTTW, Chicago, reports.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The headquarters of the World Church of the Creator are in the bedroom of this unassuming house in East Peoria, Illinois. With the flag of Israel on the floor and white power flags on the wall, it's not hard to figure out the views of Matt Hale, leader of the so-called church, a church that believes in no deity, is anti-Christian, and has one simple message.

MATT HALE, World Church of the Creator: The basic belief of the church is that what is good for the white race is the highest virtue and what is bad for the white race the ultimate sin. That, in fact, is our golden rule, and that's our main teaching; everything else revolves around that.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The Internet has helped make the World Church of the Creator one of the fastest growing hate groups in the U.S.. Web pages call for a racial holy war or a Rahowa. It is the cry that ends every Hale speech to his followers.

MATT HALE: Let us win. Let us travel on this path together, you and I, my comrades, and together we will win a whiter and brighter world. Rahowa!

GROUP SHOUTING: Rahowa!

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Hale insists the Rahowa will be non-violent and legal, even though it is called a war.

MATT HALE: So is the war on drugs, but no one's killing drug dealers to my knowledge. The war on poverty isn't killing poor people. And nor does the racial holy war mean that we intend to kill anyone.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: But on the weekend of July 4th, one of Hale's most active followers, 21-year-old Benjamin Nathaniel Smith, did kill people. A two-day shooting spree aimed at minorities left former Northwestern University Basketball Coach Ricky Byrdsong dead, Indiana University student Won Joon Yoon dead and six Orthodox Jews and three African-Americans wounded. Smith then took his own life. He had been a student at Indiana University, where in an interview nine months before his death he defended his right to distribute racist pamphlets.

BENJAMIN NATHANIEL SMITH: (October, 1998) The Church of the Creator is very dedicated to free speech. People call our literature hate literature but all it really is, is it's the truth that reflects on the minorities negatively. I mean, it's the facts. You can't argue with the facts. And people want to stop it from being put out, but we're determined to go by our constitutional rights, and that's what we're going to do.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Hale admits that he was in touch with Smith shortly before the murders, but denies any responsibility for Smith's actions.

MATT HALE: I never would have told him to do this. I would've told him to be peaceful and legal as he always was before. He testified at my law license hearing and testified that I believe in the rule of law and that is certainly the case. We can win a lot more by being legal, by being peaceful, by being non-violent, by being constitutional. I influenced him to the extent of him distributing some literature. He distributed vast quantities of our church literature, and I'm very proud of him for that.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The pain for the families of the victims of Smith's murderous spree was intense. Even so, the father of Won Joon Yoon spoke of love, not hate.

WON JOON, Victim's Father: (speaking through interpreter) As we love our son, we too love Benjamin Smith. Therefore, I harbor no sense of anger against him, but I decry the fact that he has taken a life away.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: But the president of the Korean-American Citizens Coalition saw Yoon's death as a crime of hate.

SOYOUNG KWON, President, Korean-American Citizens Coalition: He died because he was an Asian. His death affects not only the Koreans, but it also affects all of us: The Asian-Americans, the Jewish community, the African-Americans, all of us.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Hale has had no response to Smith's victims or their survivors.

MATT HALE: We really just don't have anything to say to them. And that's part of our church. We do not socialize with the other races.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: 15-year-old Ephraim Wolfe survived Smith's bullets. Shot in the leg on the way home from Friday evening services at his temple, Wolfe still carries the bullet near his knee cap.

EPHRAIM WOLFE, Victim: When I was hit, I told the cop, one of the cops who came by, that the guy shot me because I was Jewish.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Wolfe's father, a family physician, says he first reacted as a professional and assessed his son's injuries as not life-threatening, but several days later --

DR. ROBERT WOLFE, Victim's Father: I said "Oh, my God, he could have been killed, you know, a little higher, a little, you know -- he could have blown his knee out and crippled him or, God forbid, like Mr. Byrdsong, been murdered."

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The family has filed a civil lawsuit against Matt Hale and the World Church of the Creator. Family Attorney, Michael Bender.

MICHAEL BENDER, Wolfe's Lawyer: And we're going forward with the complaint, which says that Hale had an involvement. And although Hale did not pull the trigger, he does have responsibility.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The question of Matt Hale's legal responsibility raises fundamental issues about the Constitution's protection of free speech rights. The killing spree by Hale's associates has even groups like the Anti-Defamation League, traditionally in the forefront of protecting free speech, ask if it's time to impose some limitations on free speech rights. Anti-Defamation League Attorney Harlan Loeb has

has tracked Hale and the World Church of the Creator for years. He calls it one of the most virulent hate groups in the country and says the questions Hale and Smith's actions raise are troubling.

HARLAN LOEB: On the one hand, free speech is a very, very important -- probably essential piece of our democracy. It enables the full flow of ideas to have a place in the marketplace of ideas and is a very, very essential piece of our democracy. On the other hand, you can't always wrap yourself up in the first amendment and immunize yourself from any further scrutiny. I have first amendment rights, therefore, you can't -- I'm beyond recourse -- there's nothing that you can do to me because the first amendment will protect me from anything, which Hale is clearly trying to do.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: But Hale maintains neither his words or the words of his church have crossed the line into an area where free speech can no longer be protected.

MATT HALE: The test that the Supreme Court has traditionally used is exhortations to imminent lawless action. This certainly has not been demonstrated with my church. We have never urged people to say "go and get him" or anything of that kind. And without any evidence to the contrary, the line has certainly not been crossed between free speech and illegal action.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The issue of Hale's free speech rights was starkly raised when Hale was denied admission to the Illinois bar in April, despite having graduated from law school and passing the bar exam. The committee on character and fitness said Hale did not possess enough of either to be admitted to the bar. Hale was represented in his quest by St. Louis attorney Bob Herman, a specialist in first amendment cases.

BOB HERMAN, Hale's Lawyer: This case is a test of our commitment to constitutional freedoms. Mr. Hale has beliefs that offend the majority of people and yet he should be granted the same freedoms and privileges that all the rest of us have in society.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Herman calls Hale's case the most significant bar admission case of the last 30 years and will take an appeal to the Illinois Supreme Court and very likely to the U.S. Supreme Court. But Loeb says Benjamin Smith's killing spree means Hale should never be allowed to practice law.

HARLAN LOEB: He has forfeited his right to practice law because he is the leader of a church in which a prominent member engaged in virulent and very, very damaging criminal conduct. He did not denounce that. He made no statement repudiating the violence of a church member.

BOB HERMAN: The notion that someone can be liable for a criminal act with the proximate link being a shared philosophy or advocacy is a very tenuous one in my opinion.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Despite the attack on his son, Dr. Wolfe still believes it is important to protect free speech. But he says there are ways to combat the messages of hate.

DR. ROBERT WOLFE: You have to deal with it like drug abuse. You have to think of it s a temptation that some people are susceptible to.

DEVIN BURGHART, New World Community: Folks believe that this sort of activity occurs either in the deep South or out in the Pacific Northwest. Our research, unfortunately, tells us that hate is alive here and well right in the heartland.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Educating people out the significant rise in hate groups in the Midwest and across the country is one of the first steps in combating them, says Devin Burghart. Burghart spoke to this workshop on the community response to hate groups after Smith's murderous weekend. Given the free speech protections for hate groups, Burghart says the wayfor those who are opposed to such groups to respond is to strongly exercise their own free speech rights.

DEVIN BURGHART: The first and foremost thing is that communities need to speak out early when hate groups come to town and speak out often, and when they speak out, speak in many different voices.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Since the Internet has become an integral part of spreading the message of hate groups, the Anti-Defamation League has come up with a way to protect children from that message.

HARLAN LOEB: ADL has developed a product that parents can use voluntarily which we call Hate Filter, appropriately enough, which is very inexpensive which parents can use voluntarily to screen out hate sites.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Hale says the growth of his church will be undeterred by either community pressure or hate fillers. The publicity surrounding Smith's murders has only increased his membership, says Hale, and he expects that membership to continue to build.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And still to come on the NewsHour tonight, the U.S. and Colombia's drug war.

FOCUS - COLOMBIA IN CRISIS

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: The United States, Colombia and the war against drugs. We start with some background from Spencer Michels.

SPENCER MICHELS: Last month, a U.S. Army plane carrying five U.S. soldiers crashed in a remote mountain region of Colombia. The crew, including pilot Jennifer Odom, were among the first U.S. casualties in Colombia's war on drugs. The high-tech surveillance aircraft, which the U.S. Government says flew into an uncharted mountain, went down in a drug-growing region controlled by rebel guerrillas. The mission was part of a stepped-up campaign by the U.S. to help Colombia and its president, Andres Pastrana, take on the world's leading growers of illegal narcotics. Colombia supplies more than three-quarters of the globe's cocaine and two-thirds of the heroin sold in the states. This year, the U.S. has tripled its aid to Colombia to $289 million. It is the third-largest recipient of American security aid behind Israel and Egypt. Colombia's drug war is closely intertwined with its civil war, a war that's claimed more than 30,000 lives in the last decade alone. Among the key combatants is a 12,000-strong group of leftist rebels, known by its Spanish acronym, FARC, the revolutionary armed forces of Colombia. FARC has been at odds with the government for three decades. Employing brutal tactics, they have killed army soldiers and suspected government sympathizers. Leaders say they will fight until their goals of nationalism and redistribution of wealth are met.

JOAQUIN GOMEZ, FARC: (speaking through interpreter) We want peace without hunger and repressive laws, without gagging the press, with the economic support of the international community, but without them meddling in the internal affairs of our country.

SPENCER MICHELS: The rebels are closely aligned with Colombian drug growers and traffickers. The rebels protect the growers' land; in return, growers pay an estimated $600 million a year as a sort of tax to the insurgents. On the other side is the government led by Pastrana, a former TV journalist and mayor of Bogot , now in his second year as president. Pastrana, who says his goal is a negotiated peace deal, met face- to-face with the guerrillas earlier this year.

PRESIDENT ANDRES PASTRANA: (speaking through interpreter) We 're willing to discuss, we're willing to dissent, we're willing to propose and evaluate, but above all, we are ready to build.

SPENCER MICHELS: Still, the FARC attacks continue. Further complicating the picture is the presence of a second, smaller rebel group with its own leftist agenda and right-wing paramilitary groups who are also involved in the drug trade. This year the U.S. State Department accused the paramilitary groups of murder and torture, and said the Colombian army collaborated with the right-wing groups in some areas. The State Department rated the overall human rights record of Pastrana's government as poor. In addition to the deaths, Colombia's war has displaced some one million people from their homes. Investors are also fleeing. The Colombian peso is down 40 percent so far this year; overall, the economy has contracted 6 percent in the first quarter alone; and unemployment is at a record 20 percent. In Washington last week, the U.S. role in Colombia was the subject of a hearing at a House Subcommittee on Drug Policy. Committee chairman Dan Burton, Republican of Indiana, said the Clinton administration should focus less on talking to the FARC guerrillas, which he said will fail, and focus more on fighting them.

REP. DAN BURTON: It's unfortunate that it took the tragic deaths of five U.S. Army personnel in Colombia to enlighten this administration that there's a problem down there. A blind person could have seen there's a problem. If we haven't learned anything throughout history, we ought to learn this: Appeasement does not work.

SPENCER MICHELS: But Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky is worried that a military strategy could, in her words, "entangle" the U.S. in a foreign war.

REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY: Exactly what is it that we believe this aid will this accomplish? Is it the first in a series of blank checks for a war that has no foreseeable endgame? What is the exit strategy? With the continued failure of a military solution to drug production in Colombia, why shouldn't an innovative alternative development approach be used instead? Why not spend half or all of the money on crop substitution or development?

REP. MARK SOUDER: One thing we seem to be fighting here is this Vietnam phobia we have in this country of everything-- is it like Vietnam? Isn't it like Vietnam? And there are several clear things here that are not like Vietnam, in my opinion. One is, it's in our hemisphere. Colombia is two hours from Miami. This is not something that's overseas or far away.

SPENCER MICHELS: Representing the administration at the hearing was General Barry McCaffrey, director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy. McCaffrey described Colombia as a problem of gigantic dimensions that is worsening over time.

BARRY McCAFFREY: The peace process is faltering. It's not achieving its purpose. There's been no gesture of goodwill on the part of the FARC guerrillas. It's outrageous. And yet in saying that, I do not imply that we should do anything but be entirely supportive of continuing to engage on a negotiated - support Pastrana and his colleagues on a negotiated end to the FARC, ELN, and paramilitary struggle against the government.

SPENCER MICHELS: McCaffrey has circulated a proposal for the U.S. to invest $1 billion in Latin American counter-narcotics efforts, $600 million of it for Colombia. But he said the ultimate war has to be run by Colombian leaders, not Capitol Hill. This week three high-level U.S officials, including the Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, arrived in Colombia, an indication that the country is commanding more high-level attention than ever before.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: For more on the drug war in Colombia we turn to Peter Reuter, a Professor of Public Policy at the University of Maryland. He has also been a senior economist at the RAND Corporation, where he founded its drug policy research center. Gabriel Marcella, a Professor of Third World Studies at the U.S. Army War College; he served as international affairs advisor for the U.S. Army's Southern Command in Panama from 1987 to 1989. And Michael Shifter, a senior fellow at the Inter-American Dialogue, a non-profit organization; he's also a Professor of Latin American Politics at Georgetown University. Welcome to you all.

And, Gabriel Marcella, starting with you, set the scene a little more for us here, how much, we saw on that, but explain how much of Colombia the guerrillas control, FARC mostly, and how big a threat they are to the government.

GABRIEL MARCELLA: The guerrillas right now are in control of approximately 40 percent of the national territory. Much of this territory is lightly populated, and lies to the Eastern side of the and in the broad Amazon basin. They substitute a serious threat to the Government of Colombia. My estimate and that of most analysts right now, it is not a threat that would topple the Government of Colombia. However, it can maintain for the long-term a sustained level of conflict to include periodic attacks against police, military installations, destruction of infrastructure. In essence, it contests the legitimacy of the government throughout the nation and particularly in the 40 percent that it controls directly.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Peter Reuter, add anything you want to that or subtract anything you want and explain the relationship between the insurgents and the drug trade.

PETER REUTER: Well, the insurgents are intimately involved in the drug trade, as are the paramilitary. The drug trade is the one sort of free source of money that is available to any effective criminal group and the guerrillas and the paramilitary can both offer protect on extortion for the coca growers. And so there has sort of been a long history of involvement -- sometimes it's more guerrilla, sometimes more paramilitary -- but they are both intimately involved with this and are likely to continue to be so, despite U.S. efforts.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Michael Shifter, anything to add that intimately involved with this?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Absolutely and I think the crucial point is that the government itself is very weak and it's lost a lot of authority throughout the country. That has enabled the guerrillas, the paramilitary groups to really expand. So you have an intersection of three tendencies, the drug economy, political violence which has happened for a long time and institutional deterioration of the political system. And that has really created a severe crisis.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And, Mr. Shifter, just one clarification, when you say - when there's an intimate involvement, which I know actually Mr. Reuter used that word, but you don't mean that the guerrillas are actually trading the drugs or growing them; it is the protection, right?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Right, exactly. They sustain their activities, their political activities, by the criminal economy -- by the drug economy and they apply tax both on producers and traffickers, so that accounts for a large source of their income but they themselves are not producers and traffickers, I think that distinction is important.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Okay. Mr. Marcella, or, Professor Marcella, comment -- if you -- on the relationship between the insurgents and the drug trade? Add anything or subtract from that but then explain specifically the U.S. involvement at this moment.

GABRIEL MARCELLA: The relationship is well described by Michael Shifter, and I would add to that that it is a marriage of convenience. That is to say that the FARC -- specifically the FARC but also the ELN -- raises enough funds to support not only their political activities but also their military operations. So in a sense, the drug problem has intensified -- an old insurgency problem -- and actually intensified the problem of paramilitaries because the paramilitaries exist in part because of the absence of law and order. And much of this is due to the influx of drug money and to the coffers of the insurgents.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Now fit the U.S. role into this. What is the U.S. doing specifically in this drug war?

GABRIEL MARCELLA: Well, let me state up front that I do not speak on behalf of the United States Government.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: I know that. You are all here as people that know what is going on.

GABRIEL MARCELLA: Great. Thank you. The United States is helping the Government of Colombia combat the narcotics problem. All of our assistance is designed to improve the capabilities of the military, the police especially, less so the military but certainly the police and other institutions of the government to deal with the narcotics problem. We -- that means administration of justice, alternative development, schemes for the peasants and a variety of other things. But let me underline that we have not crossed the line from counter narcotics to counterinsurgency and there rages a debate within our community and within the academic community as to whether Columbia should be supported at both levels. That is to say we should support their efforts to fight the insurgency at not stop simply at the counter narcotics effort. And my colleagues can speak to that. I can speak to that if you wish also.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Michael Shifter, it's not so easy not to cross that line, right, even now between the drug and the anti-insurgency efforts?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Right. These are very much interconnected, intertwined.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: I thought there was a GAO report saying that the U.S. was sharing intelligence with the military and that this intelligence was being used in the counterinsurgency?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: That's correct, on the insurgencies, that is correct. We always draw these lines. That is one of the lines that 's been drawn. We share intelligence but up to that point. And so the question is really in practice, in reality in a situation of severe conflict and war that, internal conflict in Colombia, is it realistic, does it really make sense to draw these distinctions? I think in reality those are so interconnected that the distinctions lose meaning in practice.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Do you agree with that, Peter Reuter, that the distinctions lose meaning? And what conclusion does that lead to you draw for what the U.S. should do next?

PETER REUTER: I think what it points to is the word that Congresswoman Schatowsky used, which was "entanglement." I think the U.S. can claim that it is supporting a very specific mission of particular institutions, but the realities, as Michael Shifter said, are that it is support -- providing very general support for the military and the police in Colombia. And undoubtedly there will be human rights abuses that result from this, and the U.S. will find itself, you know, blamed in some way for that no matter how refined the controls that it has put in place. In general it's very hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys in situations like that. In Mexico the U.S. has been long supporting the military involvement in drug control, and you know, a number of times someone that the U.S. has been particularly, has particularly praised has then turned out to be involved in the drug traffic. I think that it is an uncomfortably - it is an illusion that one can really make these fine distinctions and orchestrate a campaign in such a fluid situation.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So, Peter Reuter, what's your conclusion on whether the U.S. should give more security assistance?

PETER REUTER: I think that the U.S. should give minimal security assistance. I think that it does little to contribute to reduction in our drug problem. It does little to contribute to the stability of the Colombian government, which is surely the other objective of anything that we do in Colombia. And it does pose serious risks of the U.S. being entangled in events that it can't control and that lead to, you know, substantial human rights abuses. Human rights abuse is sort of an oddly lame term for what we're talking about here, which are massacres.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: All right. Gabrielle Marcella, do you think that there should be a significant increase in security assistance in Colombia?

GABRIEL MARCELLA: I think that if we continue in the direction of counter-narcotics support, I think we're missing the boat on this one because eventually we must support Colombia in its efforts to reestablish law and order in its national territory. That essentially is a military effort. Now I'm not advocating a projection of U.S. forces into Colombia. I'm not advocating major increases in military assistance, but what I do advocate is changing the emphasis of just counter-narcotics to improving the capabilities of the military to perform better. That is to say we can give advice and we can give equipment but we should not insert U.S. troops, other than as trainers. This is a lesson that we learned in El Salvador. And it is a lesson that is applicable in this case again, because El Salvador was a successful effort in that direction. I would continue and say that Mr. Reuter is absolutely correct; one of the ways we should engage the Colombians is in this whole area of the military improving its relationship with the people. This is human rights. There is no question about it.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And, Gabriel Marcella, does this mean that you would recommend that a significant amount of money, maybe half a billion dollars, go to Columbia but not for the drug war? It would go for the training and the other things that you are talking about for the counter-insurgency war?

GABRIEL MARCELLA: I haven't worked out the proportions, but there should be money set aside and I don't see enough of it right now. I have not seen the current proposals by Mr. McCaffrey but alternative development is very key. You have to wean the peasants from heroin and the coca business.

PETER REUTER: Could I make a comment?

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Yes, and, Gabriel Marcella, we may lose the line to you. If you disappear, I want everybody to know you why, but we'll hope you're still there. Yes. Go ahead, Peter Reuter.

PETER REUTER: Alternative development, which is the liberal version of how we deal with drug problems and drug production in Colombia, is a fine idea which has in practice only managed to sort of shift the coca trade from or the opium trade from one area to another. And I think if we go in, if the U.S. goes in with a large scale crop substitution program, it is likely to be very -- have trouble sort of presenting results that will make anyone very cheerful here. I'm not against alternative development, but the notion that this will make some substantial difference in the foreseeable future is simply unreasonable.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Mr. Shifter, where do you come down in this debate?

MICHAEL SHIFTER: Well, I think the question is not really whether we give military or police assistance or not; the question, is what for. There is a peace process going on in Colombia. We have a Colombian government. We should deal not with the head of the police or the head of the armed forces but with the head of the elected government of Colombia. We haven't done that enough. That's why the visit of Secretary Pickering I think is potentially very, very significant. So I think that should be our focus -- try to strengthen the government, the capacity of the government, the effectiveness of the government. If that means increasing military support to achieve that end, then I'm in favor of it. The problem and the risk, Elizabeth, is that we're going down a slippery slope of increasing helicopters, more assistance, more resources without having any connection to a larger objective and purpose of trying to achieve some sort of political solution and reconciliation in that troubled country.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: So you really want to see it in this context.

MICHAEL SHIFTER: A global, comprehensive approach.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And in the little bit of time we have left, Peter Reuter, what would you like to see happen?

PETER REUTER: Less, that is I think the U.S. tends to involve itself far too much in these drug producing countries to almost no purpose for the U.S. itself and often it's counterproductive for the countries in which they're involved. The Colombian government's credibility depends on political rather than military factors. What the U.S. can do is certainly improve its military capabilities, but that seems very much beside the point here and the risk that the military in fact become sort of Frankenstein Monster in terms of worsening its human rights record, abuse record, is something that we should worry about considerably. Given economic support for a country which is now in serious economic trouble and whose economic problems no doubt worsen their civil, the promise of civil society, say something much more with the U.S. effort.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: All right. Well, thank you a very much. We're sorry that we lost Gabriel Marcella a little bit early.

FINALLY - DROUGHT

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Finally tonight, NewsHour regular Robert Pinsky, poet laureate of the United States, considers this summer's drought.

ROBERT PINSKY: Drought in poetry has often served to represent spiritual dryness as in Gerard Manley Hopkins's memorable plea, "Mine, oh though Lord of life, send my roots rain." Maybe the most striking image of craving a rain that holds off is in a sonnet by the 19th century American poet, Frederic Goddard Tuckerman. Tuckerman compares the moment when yet another day ends with no rain -- darkness falling after the red sunset without relief -- and the other midday moment when a storm threatens but fails. And so the day drops by, the horizon draws the fading sun, and we stand struck in grief failing to find our haven of relief, wide of the way not sure to turn or pause and weep to view how fast the splendor wanes and scarcely heed but yet some share remains of the red a after light, some time to mark some space between the sundown and the dark. But not for him those golden calms succeed, who while the day is high, and glory reigns sees it go by, as the dim pompous plain hoary with salt and gray with bitter weed sees the vault blacken, feels the dark wind strain, hears the dry thunder roll and knows no rain.

RECAP

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Again, the major stories of this Wednesday: a tornado struck without warning in downtown Salt Lake City, killing one person and injuring at least 100 others, the mayor's office said. The suspect in yesterday's shooting at a Jewish community center in suburban Los Angeles surrendered to police. A five-year-old victim remained in critical but stable condition. Police said they believe the same gunman also shot a postal worker to death an hour later. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Elizabeth Farnsworth. Thank you. Good night.