The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Leading the news this Wednesday, a congressional witness said Vice President Bush used Panama's General Noriega to warn Fidel Castro of the Grenada invasion. Bush denied it. The U. S. urged Israel to accept an international meeting to begin talks on the future of the Palestinians. A Federal Appeals Court said it is unconstitutional for the army to ban homosexuals. We'll have details in our news summary in a moment. Jim. JIM LEHRER: After the news summary we look in detail at the stunning testimony of a former top aide to General Noriega, the leader of Panama. Then comes the stump speech20of Democratic Presidential candidate Al Gore and an Elizabeth Brackett report about race problems at the University of Wisconsin. News Summary LEHRER: There was more startling testimony today about the leader of Panama, Gen. Manuel Antonio Noriega. An exiled former Noriega aide said Vice President Bush used Noriega to warn Cuban leader, Fidel Castro, not to intervene in the 1983 U. S. invasion of Grenada. Jose Blandon told the story to a Senate subcommittee.

JOSE BLANDON, former Noriega aide [through translator]: The purpose of the communication to Castro was to warn him, warn him that this was going to take place and that if the United States were to have problems in Grenada, Cuba was going to suffer from reprisals. LEHRER: Subcommittee Chairman Sen. John Carey of Massachusetts said the warning meant Castro knew of the invasion before Congress. A spokesman for Vice President Bush said it did not happen. He said Blandon's story was a complete fabrication. Later in the day, Bush was asked by reporters if he had ever called Noriega. ''Nunca, never,'' he replied. Nunca being the Spanish word for never. Robin? MacNEIL: The United States is urging Israel to accept an international meeting to begin talks on the future of the occupied territories and self rule for Palestinians. This was the gist of a peace plan presented to Israeli leaders by U. S. envoy Richard Murphy and disclosed by Israeli officials. The plan immediately split Israel's Likud Labor coalition government. Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, the Labor leader, welcomed it, while Likud Prime Minister Shamir expressed reservations. A spokesman for the PLO rejected it out of hand.

BASSAM ABU SHARIF, O Spokesman: PLI think that the -- the visit of Murphy to the region and to our occupied land in particular, is one of the American tactics to maneuver, to blur, the clear image. And we say that these tactics will not be allowed to pass because the Palestinian people have decided to get rid of occupation once and forever. We will not accept any proposal that will come short from putting an end to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. MacNEIL: There was more sporadic violence in the occupied territories today. A Gaza Strip resident died after being wounded last month. Troops opened fire to disperse some 200 stone throwing Palestinians, wounding two. Two other Palestinians were shot and wounded in the West Bank. LEHRER: A Greek ship, with Palestinian deportees on board, delayed its departure for Israel today. More than 100 Palestinians, who have been deported from Israeli occupied territories, are to be on that ship. A spokesman for the Palestine Liberation Organization said the trip from Athens was still planned, despite Israeli officials saying they will not allow it to dock. The Associated Press reported today that Attorney General Edwin Meese has decided to close the PLO's United Nations Mission office in New York City. The AP quoted Congressional and other sources saying Meese has concluded legislation passed by Congress last December was binding, despite State Department protests to the contrary. The legislation ordered the New York Mission office closed. MacNEIL: The Reagan Administration today painted a more hopeful picture of human rights in the Soviet Union under Mikhail Gorbachev. This assessment was spelled out in the State Department's annual report on human rights around the world, by Assistant Secretary of State Richard Schifter. RICHARD SCHIFTER, Assistant Secretary of State: We have not witnessed the dawn of democracy in the U. S. S. R. It is still a one party dictatorship. The KGB is still an all powerful organ of repression. But there has been some relaxation in the harshness of repression. Some political and religious prisoners have been released. We know of only very20few new incarcerations and commitments to psychiatric institutions for political reasons. There's somewhat greater freedom of expression. But, as I have said, a good deal of repression continues. MacNEIL: The report said there had been improvements in human rights in South Korea and the Philippines, a mixed performance in China, and a deterioration in South Africa. It said conditions were worst in North Korea, with Cuba close behind. The report also accused the Nicaraguan Government of torture, disappearances, and indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, in the war with the Contras. LEHRER: The Department of Education today declared the college systems of four Southern states in compliance withfederal civil rights laws. Education Secretary William Bennett identified the four as Arkansas, North Carolina, South Carolina, and West Virginia. He said six other states remain at least in partial violation of the law. They are Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Missouri, Oklahoma and Virginia. He said the six have been given 90 days to give assurances they will abide by desegregation orders by next December 31.

WILLIAM BENNETT, Secretary of Education: The Department of Education will continue vigorously to monitor compliance with civil rights laws and regulations in its jurisdiction. Where states have fulfilled their obligations, due note has been taken. But where they have not carried out certain significant activities, we are insisting that they do so. Today's announcement signifies real progress by ten states and by the United States generally in the pursuit of full educational opportunity for all students. LEHRER: A federal appeals court today struck down the army's ban on homosexuals. The court of San Francisco ruled two to one that such prohibitions are unconstitutional and that they illegitimately cater to private biases. The government may appeal today's ruling to the U. S. Supreme Court, which has held in the past that the armed forces do have the right to discharge homosexuals. MacNEIL: South African troops rushed into one of the black homelands, Bophuthatswana, today, to crush a coup against the local government. We have a report by James Robbins of theBBC.

JAMES ROBBINS, BBC: The South African army took only a few minutes to overthrow the coup, their troops surrounding Bophuthatswana's independent stadium, forcing the immediate surrender of the homeland soldiers holding President Mangope prisoner there. The rebels claimed his government was corrupt and elections rigged. That they didn't stand a chance once South Africa decided to intervene. Insisting President Mangope was legally elected and that South African nationals were among those held against their will. Although South Africa reaffirmed its dominance with military ease, first news of the coup had badly shocked President Bothe and his ministers. Internationally, Bophuthatswana is most famous as home to Sun City, entertainment complex of South Africans escaping from more puritan restrictions at home, and the chance to see world class sport. Last December President Mangope and his most powerful ally and supporter, P. W. Bothe, were here together, celebrating ten years of the homeland's nominal independence -- independence never recognized by most of the outside world. MacNEIL: This evening, President Mangopeappeared on television and said, ''I am back in control, thanks to the South African army. LEHRER: And that's it for the news summary. Now, the Senate testimony about General Noriega, the Gore stump speech, and race problems at a midwest university. Tales of Intrigue MacNEIL: We begin tonight with the extraordinary story that has been unfolding about Panama's strong man, Manuel Antonio Noriega, and his links with the United States government. Noriega was indicted last week in Florida for involvement in international drug trafficking. He responded by threatening to remove U. S. troops from the Panama Canal zone. For the past two days, a former Noriega aid has described an international criminal empire allegedly run by Noriega, and his ties with U. S. officials. Judy Woodruff has the details.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Jose Blandon, a former top political aide to Noriega, described what he called a criminal empire that involved private pilots, the Panamanian military, other government officials, private corporations and banks. It was at the center of an alleged drug and gun running network throughout Central America. Blandon, who spoke in Spanish and English, also revealed that Noriega sold arms through this network to the Marxist rebel group known as the FMLN, fighting the U. S. --backed government of President Duarte in El Salvador. JOSE BLANDON, former Noriega aide [through translator]: In 1980, after the Sandinista revolution, we saw the beginning of traffic of weapons from Panama and Costa Rica to El Salvador. These arms -- MAN'S VOICE: Who were these weapons being sold to in El Salvador? BLANDON [through translator]: The weapons were being sold to the National Liberation for the (unintelligible) of El Salvador, basically. And it was a group which at that time had millions of dollars in their hands, because they had to pay those funds through kidnappings which they had carried out during a previous period. MAN'S VOICE: Now at the time, General Noriega had a close relationship with the United States, correct? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, of course. At the time, General Noriega was chief of Military Intelligence in Panama. MAN'S VOICE: And he was working with the CIA, correct? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, he worked with the Central Intelligence Agency, and with the Central Intelligence Agencies working in different branches ofthe U. S. Army stationed in Panama at the various military bases there. MAN'S VOICE: So while General Noriega was working with the CIA and being paid by us, and had a close relationship, he was selling arms to the rebels that were fighting the government we were supporting, is that correct? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, that is correct.

WOODRUFF: According to Blandon, Noriega also struck a deal with a group of notorious Colombian drug traffickers known as the Medellin Cartel, which he said paid Noriega between $4 and $7 million in protection money for a drug processing plant in Panama. At the same time, he was working with U. S. drug enforcement officials through a Panamanian who was a member of his alleged criminal empire. BLANDON [through translator]: When they had a problem with someone who hasn't paid, then they turn him over to the D. A. So their work is to keep the D. A. happy, giving those people that they do not want and they usually turn in U. S. citizens involved in drug trafficking in the U. S. , those that the D. A. has an interest in. Sen. ALFONSE D'AMATO, (R) New York: Mr. Blandon, if I can just interrupt you, it appears that the cartel and General Noriega seemed to know very, very well how to feed our criminal justice system just little bits to keep it happy, but nothing real. Is that -- would you say that's a fair statement? BLANDON [through translator]: I would say that it goes even further than that, Senator. If you look at the control which the Medellin Cartel exercises over our defense forces, and everything that they know about the psychology, aspirations and interests of the officers in Panama, they know much more than what the U. S. knows about Panama's defense forces, or any of the defense forces in Latin America. We have a phenomenon here whereby there is a multinational force being created, one that is headed by drug traffickers and with control power over Central Americans states. Sen. D'AMATO: If I might -- and I think you've made the point -- congratulate you, because it's important that we let the American people know, the Congress know, the Administration, exactly what's been taking place. This is a charade. A giant charade. And as you've indicated, Mr. Blandon, as expanded upon, this cartel understands the psychology of dealing not only with the Panamanian defense forces, but certainly the political forces here in the United States. And they do, as you mentioned yesterday -- feed, when they have to, some crumbs, and most of them are people who haven't cooperated in their drug dealing -- Sen. JOHN KERRY, (D) Mass. : Well, I want to ask one other area that's a short, small area, and a very disturbing one. And I -- you told me yesterday when we were talking that the C. I. A. gave information to Noriega government, to Panamanian government officials on U. S. Senators. Is that accurate? Is that true? BLANDON [through translator]: As part of the political intelligence team in Panama, documents which were drafted in the area of political intelligence on individuals coming to Panama, came to my hands. And the C. I. A. did prepare reports -- Sen. KERRY: Did the NSC also prepare reports? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes. Sen. KERRY: Which you had received? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, of course. (unintelligible) got them and he passed them on to us. I recall, for example, a mission by Miss Deborah Demas to Panama, and we received complete information -- Sen. KERRY: Deborah Demas, for the record, is a staff member sitting beside me and Senator Helms. You had information about Senator Helms. Did you also have information about Senator Kennedy? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, also. Sen. KERRY: Can you describe that? BLANDON [through translator]: We had information to the effect -- well, stating his political position, and his own personal problems. We had all types of information on him. Sen. KERRY: And who provided you that information? BLANDON [through translator]: The information came to my hands through Panamanian intelligence. It was classified information coming from the U. S. Sen. KERRY: Were the documents U. S. documents? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, clearly. Sen. KERRY: Were they marked classified? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes, they were marked classified. Sen. KERRY: Did you receive documents on any staff people of Senator Kennedy? BLANDON [through translator]: Yes. Sen. KERRY: I don't even think it needs words or explanation or anything else. I think it's something we ought to inquire about further, but it's about as disturbing a revelation as I've heard in the course of a lot of disturbing revelations over the course of the last year and a half. And -- well, we'll see where it goes.

WOODRUFF: The C. I. A. denied those allegations. Today, Blandon told the Senators another story. He said General Noriega was working with a man who became the central figure in the Iran contra scandal, Lt. Col. Oliver North. He described a series of meetings, the first aboard a yacht off the Panamanian coast. BLANDON [through translator]: During that meeting the military situation in Nicaragua was discussed, as well as the regional situation. Col. North was interested in gaining Panama's support for the contras. And he particularly requested training assistance in bases located in Panama.

WOODRUFF: Blandon also said that before the U. S. invasion of Grenada, in 1983, Vice President Bush asked Noriega to warn Fidel Castro not to intervene. Blandon said Noriega did call Castro. But today, a Bush aide denied that the Vice President had made the request. LEHRER: The big question is whether to believe what Jose Blandon has said. We have with us a believer and a skeptic. The believer is Senator Alfonse D'Amato, Republican of New York, and a member of the senate subcommittee which has been hearing Blandon's testimony. The skeptic is Roger Fontaine, who was the National Security Council specialist on Latin America, from 1981 83. Senator, why do you believe him? Sen. D'AMATO: Well, the fact of the matter is that we've been dealing with this renegade and this pirate. He was the chief operative -- that the C. I. A. used Noriega for the past 20 years. We've paid him fabulous sums of money, and he's been in our employ up until rather recently. We've got Admiral Murphy going down just four months ago to meet with him in his private ventures. We've got people in the Drug Enforcement Agency, notwithstanding all of the testimony that comes not only from Blandon, but grand jury indictments, and yet he's pulled the wool over the D. E. A. , and they commend him, and the Attorney General does, for an incredible job. And so we've been out of the loop. Because we've been so involved as it relates to taking on the problems of Nicaragua, etc. , that we've been willing to look the other way. And so here he is, he's been trafficking in drugs, trafficking in arms, while he is our operative, he is our eyes and ears there, here's the same fellow running guns into El Salvador -- against Duarte, one of our own interests! Why, it's ludicrous, and so when someone like Mr. Blandon, who really has no axes to grind, who comes forward in a good faith effort to set the record straight and to demonstrate how the tentacles of the drug empire and the cartel have taken over, have subverted the military establishments in country after country after country -- including Mexico, by the way, which I guess we'd say that didn't happen, and Colombia, I imagine that hasn't happened -- and of course it's happened in Panama -- we still have those people who want to cling on to this that it couldn't be possible. Well, it has. These facts are disturbing. I think he's very creditable. Yes, one might say now he says that Noriega told him of a phone call, for example, that came from the Vice President. The Vice President denies it. I believe the Vice President. Indeed the call may not have come from him. It may have come from someone of his staff. But the fact is we've used him to make contacts with Cuba, to make contacts with the Colombians and with others. And we've done that even with his predecessor. LEHRER: So it wouldn't be that unusual if he did the calling? Sen. D'AMATO: Of course not. And so not to be outraged, and people say, oh, we're skeptical. Now, look, what we're talking about is the fact that we have allowed the drug cartel to take over. And it's not only taking over in Central America, but it's reached right into the tentacles of this country. Just look and see what's happening in our neighborhoods. Let's see what's happening on our local police who we find have been corrupted out, and look and see the people who have lost heart and look and see how we are just totally overwhelmed and so we've never really put a concentrated effort -- and the shame of it is that for some misguided reason, we have decided to get in league with the devil, because they have offered us a few crumbs. Some intelligence at times, they've surrendered some of the cronies who didn't pay them off for their drug protection. And look what we have. So, yes, do I believe Mr. Blandon? I think he has attempted to put together a package -- he may be out on some of his dates, some of his times (unintelligible) that is accurate, and it's a sorry spectacle. LEHRER: Mr. Fontaine, what questions do you have? ROGER FONTAINE, former NSC aide: Well, first of all, I think that Blandon has been credible in terms of testimony he's given to the grand jury in Miami, and I think the noose is really tightening around General Noriega, who deserves to have that noose tightened. LEHRER: And as a result of Blandon's testimony and other testimony, Noriega's now been indicted for drug trafficking and laundering a lot of -- Mr. FONTAINE: That's right, and he's going to be tried in absentia, and we'll see what happens in terms of the court on the evidence, but it doesn't look very good for Noriega right now. But some of the other things do disturb me. The allegations about NSC, CIA documents on political intelligence regarding members of the Senate showing up in Panama are very disturbing. And I think they're political fiction. LEHRER: Political fiction? Why do you say that? Mr. FONTAINE: Because that just does not ring right at all. Not only is it morally wrong, it's illegal for the CIA to do anything like that. It's been categorically denied. Secondly, in terms of the NSC, the NSC is not a political intelligence arm, it's a staff for the President of the United States. I would if there's a followup, and I assume there will be, have some very probing questions about these documents, what they look like, whose signatures were on them, exactly what they were like. Because Blandon himself may think they've been that, things like that can be fabricated. As far as classified is concerned, anybody with a rubber stamp can classify things. And Blandon may be the victim of Noriega's own deception. LEHRER: What about the Bush phone call to Noriega about Granada and Castro? Mr. FONTAINE: Well, I was at the NSC at the time. And I was involved in that operation. I never heard of anything like that at the time and I was right there. Secondly, it makes no sense. You don't need Noriega or anybody else to send Castro a message if a message were -- LEHRER: Would a message like that -- did a message like that go to Castro, do you know? Mr. FONTAINE: As a matter of fact, it did. But it didn't go through Noriega. LEHRER: How did it go? Mr. FONTAINE: It came right after the operation started, it went to USESEC, that is the U. S. (unintelligible) Section in Havana. (unintelligible) LEHRER: And the message to Castro was, Look, our folks are -- well, you tell me. Mr. FONTAINE: Well, I can't recall. In fact, it's probably still classified, so I won't. But I will tell you the message -- LEHRER: I won't tell anybody! Mr. FONTAINE: -- was sent. Okay. But Noriega wasn't needed as a cutout, and Noriega, frankly, in a lot of people's belief at the time, including mine, was that he as a source of intelligence wasn't very good, and as a useful conduit to Castro wasn't needed. LEHRER: What about the senator's point that the conduct of the U. S. government generally toward Noriega was shameful in that these morsels of intelligence, the few little things that we got just weren't worth it. Mr. FONTAINE: Well, I agree with that estimate. And it was a debate, I think, I know there was a debate within the U. S. government as to how valuable Noriega was, or the Panamanian intelligence system was in terms of telling us what was going on in Central America. I saw that stuff, and I didn't think it was particularly helpful. Nor did I think -- and I think most people agree too -- that he was no bridge between us and Fidel. If we wanted to send a message, we'd use other intermediaries. But, remember, General Noriega's a very good self inflater of his own role in these things. And his own words and his own aides' words, who may have been copying from what Noriega said at the time, are to be discounted. LEHRER: Senator, what about the question that Mr. Fontaine raised about the veracity of these documents and the authenticity of them? Sen. D'AMATO: Oh, you know, I think Roger probably makes a point not so much about the authenticity, but I think probably a bunch of scrapbook collections that anybody could have cut out of a newspaper put together by some CIA operative, low level, who is dealing with Noriega over the years. And you've got to understand, here's a man we've been paying $200,000 a year to. I mean, if he wasn't worth anything, when were we going to wake up and say, ''My god, this is a joke! This is a travesty!'' And so you've got somebody who said, well, this is the head guy down there and they're giving him a tough time, and so someone probably put together a bunch of clips and things and what not, and they were classified so as to show -- and I think we've got to look at that. And I agree with Roger. But I want to tell you, Jose Blandon did not make this up, nor did he make up the fact that Noriega called him in the morning at 4:30. I am certain that Noriega got him up at 4:30 and said that he'd gotten a call, someone called him, and he then reached out, got the Cuban intelligence people, they got Fidel to call up Noriega, and it's now -- who it was? The Vice President says he didn't do it. I believe it. But he indicates Noriega says that someone called him. Maybe it was some low level staffer attempting to get another line through into the Cubans. So I don't find that difficult to believe. As a matter of fact, I think it fits in. If you see what's taken place right down to recently. I mean, Murphy going there four months ago. LEHRER: Identify Admiral Murphy. Sen. D'AMATO: Admiral Murphy was that former head of the U. S. Drug Task Force, the Vice President had him working down there. I mean, what an absolute -- he ought to be ashamed of himself! A former Admiral of the United States going down to see a drug dealer, telling him don't worry and sending messages! Who was he going -- going down with (unintelligible) and a bunch of other lobbyists! I mean, now that's the kind of thing that we've been doing, and it doesn't make sense. LEHRER: Don't go away, gentlemen. Robin? MacNEIL: We look at all of this next from the perspective of the intelligence community. George Carver spent 26 years with the C. I. A. , retiring in 1979, after serving in several high level agency posts, including deputy director for National Intelligence. He's now a senior fellow at the Washington based Center for Strategic and International Studies. Mr. Carver, what do you think of Blandon's credibility? GEORGE CARVER, Center for Strategic and International Studies: Well, I think that much of what he said, particularly the grand jury, may indeed be accurate, but I also think, Robin, that he's gilding the lily, and I respectfully disagree with the senator in saying that he has no ax to grind. I think that he was fired by Noriega, he's disaffected. I think also he may well be trying to stake out a position for himself in a post Noriega Panama, and perhaps even a post Reagan United States. And feels that a post Noriega Panama would certainly have a much more left leaning orientation than the current one. Therefore, he's attacking all the current devils of the Central American left, the Reagan Administration, in this case the Vice President, the C. I. A. , etc. I think if George Bush says he did not make such a call, I don't think such a call was made. And if the C. I. A. would depart from its practice and flatly deny the allegations that it passed information on U. S. senators, I'm disposed to believe it. In the first place, it would have been stupid for them to do it. It would have been as a French jurist said of the murder of the Duke of India in 1804, ''It's worse than a crime, it's a mistake. '' And I think for the C. I. A. -- anybody in the C. I. A. -- to have given a foreign government, let alone one like the Panamanians, information on U. S. senators and U. S. congressional staffers, if Judge Webster has the sense that I think he has, he will fry that person in oil. MacNEIL: Because it was illegal -- it is illegal. Mr. CARVER: Well, among other things it is illegal, but it's also stupid. MacNEIL: Now, you are of the -- a little delicate, this -- but you are of the pre Casey C. I. A. Are you confident when you look over the C. I. A. since you left -- are you absolutely confident in being as adamant as you are about that? Mr. CARVER: Well, Robin, of course, everything's gone downhill since I left -- that goes withoutsaying. But the -- I am quite confident on this. Bill Casey may have done some things that in retrospect were foolish, but Bill Casey was not dumb in that respect. And there would have been absolutely no point for anyone in the agency to pass information about U. S. senators and congressional staffers official information to Noriega or the Panamanian government. Also, when the C. I. A. -- this is the first time, Robin, that I believe the C. I. A. has ever flatly denied something. I think it was a mistake for it to budge off the no comment policy, but that's another question. And I don't think it would have gone out on that kind of a limb if there were a shred of substance in that particular charge of Senor Blandon's. MacNEIL: Well, why just on logical bases is Mr. Blandon credible to a federal prosecutor who will take the unprecedented step of putting evidence before a grand jury and indicting a foreign head of state who's been an ally and friend of this country, and not credible on these other allegations? Mr. CARVER: Excuse me. People are not simple. They're complex. And the fact that they're credible on some things does not mean they're necessarily credible on everything. And I think when Blandon got in front of a congressional committee with the klieg lights and television, he decided to oversell his brief a little bit, and I think he started making charges which I don't believe he'd made to the prosecutor. I may be in error. And his charges about the vice president, and his charges about the agency, I think, were patently false. And the other things that he said about Noriega probably were not. Noriega's a very unlovely person. And Noriega would richly deserve anything that he got. But I think that those particular charges of Blandon were exaggerations. MacNEIL: Of course, those charges are more embarrassing potentially if they were true to the United States, than the ones against Noriega's drug activities. Mr. CARVER: I think that the desire to embarrass the United States was part of Blandon's motive in making those particular charges. Or at least to embarrass those portions of the U. S. government that are not popular with the people with whom Blandon I believe would like to curry favor in Panama. MacNEIL: Come back to the intelligence community -- the C. I. A. and other parts of the intelligence community that you're so familiar with. Senator D'Amato says that essentially this country through its intelligence community, or the worth the intelligence community thought it was getting from Noriega, was willing to look the other way. What do you think about that? Mr. CARVER: Well, I was not involved in Central American affairs and so I have to speak with the objectivity of ignorance. Please understand that. But I think that you've got to understand that the C. I. A. was in an awkward position. Now, that doesn't -- it may have done some very foolish things. But Noriega was the person who was the (unintelligible) in Panama. Panama was a country in which we have a number of vital interests, including the canal. There would have had to have been a certain measure of liaison contact and discussion just for the preservation of U. S. interests. Now, if people went overboard and didn't pay attention to the down side of the equation, and started trying to use the Panamanians in ways they shouldn't have used them, then they made mistakes. But I think that we did find that the real estate in Panama was useful to us, even in prosecuting our activities against drug running in Central America and coming up from South America. And I also think we have to be careful about saying that the C. I. A. paid Noriega $200,000. It may well have been that $200,000 or more was paid to the Panamanian government off of which Noriega siphoned some for his personal account. But I think that the charge that the C. I. A. paid him personally, or that the U. S. government paid him personally, may be also a wild exaggeration. MacNEIL: Thank you. Jim? LEHRER: Yes, let's bring Senator D'Amato and Roger Fontaine back into this. What about the $200,000 charge, Senator? Sen. D'AMATO: Well, let me say this to you. I've had some rather reliable people who I believe -- have indicated that he has been on the payroll, whether it's through the Panamanian government or whether private company, or whatever the source of the funding might be, the mechanism, I don't have that information, and I've been told that they paid him about $200,000. LEHRER: You believe it? Sen. D'AMATO: I don't only believe it, it's a fact. LEHRER: And was that C. I. A. money? Sen. D'AMATO: Well, whether -- again, the payments were arranged and set up, and the manner in which, Mr. Carver can tell you the different manners in which these things are conducted. But the fact of the matter is he was the person who we relied upon and he was well paid. This wasn't $200,000 over 20 years, this was $200,000 a year that he received. Now, that's information I received from reliable sources. LEHRER: What about his overall point, though, that he thinks Blandon is overselling his brief, and he's got motives that relate to his own political aspirations back in Panama? Sen. D'AMATO: You know, up until about three weeks ago, Blandon was attempting to do whatever he could to work out a peaceful transference of power. And I think his plan was a good plan to attempt to ease the situation and provide for a transition. And when finally he ran into the wall, as he said, which was not Noriega himself, but Noriega and his associates and the drug cartel, and all those who weren't provided for in that plan -- why, he had no other recourse but to either keep quiet, and he could have had his very lush job and kept it as counsel general in New York, he could have done that -- or move forward and do something, and he did. And he was reluctant to do that, because he understands that you're talking about desperate people and desperate situations, and so he's taking a high risk, a high risk as it relates to his own personal safety, and certainly one which is aimed at attempting to change the political equation there. LEHRER: Mr. Carver? Mr. CARVER: Well, let's be a little careful there, with all due respect to the Senator. Blandon put out a plan which had it worked would have left Blandon on a very advantageous position. Blandon has personal aspirations. Noriega fired him. And he may well, as I say -- LEHRER: You mean a plan -- the political plan -- Mr. CARVER: The political plan would have deposed Noriega, and it would have looked for somebody neutral and acceptable to all sides to take over on an interim basis, and guess who that might have been. Sen. D'AMATO: Let me make one point, George. We're not talking about one isolate plan, one isolated -- we're talking about major events where Blandon as the political analyst and intelligence analyst, and as the specialist, was called in repeatedly over a period of years by Noriega for his help. When he first had a problem with the Colombian drug cartel, and we know that, we know what took place, they went in there, they had made an agreement, they broke the agreement, he got the word that there was a hit team out for him, he being Noriega -- who does he send for? Blandon. And he says, Go down to Cuba. He goes. If you doubt that, let's say it. But I want to tell you, with specificity he goes through details of how Castro told him, and how he carries it on -- again, that following year he goes through with specificity and he says when this invasion in Granada took place, Noriega called him and said to him, Make the contact -- I mean, I want to tell you something, I do not believe that -- unless I've really been taken in -- a man will sit down with the comportment, etc. , that Jose Blandon has to outline this and to indicate that which he knew for fact, and that which was told to him. Mr. CARVER: I don't doubt tonight for a minute that Blandon has been very closely associated with Noriega. I think that Blandon sees that Noriega's ship is sinking, and he's trying to jump to another ship. And I think that in that process, to work his passage over to another ship, he's quite capable of making charges that make him look good by attacking people who are disliked by those with whom he now wants to curry favor. LEHRER: You're shaking your head in agreement with George Carver? Mr. FONTAINE: Basically, yes. A)Blandon was close political advisor. He's among a circle of close civilian political advisors to Noriega, and to Rios before Noriega. They are not, by the way, pro American. They're very much anti American. Of course he's looking to his own future. Yes, Noriega steps down, there's going to be an election next year. He hopes to be at least one of the candidates, perhaps the next President of Panama. LEHRER: All right. Sen. D'AMATO: Well, I think that is farfetched and Mr. Blandon will be one of the first to tell you that his political party has absolutely very limited popularity, and what we're seeing here is an attempt to poke holes through someone without really substantively coming forth with any areas where he's given any information. Because he has not. Mr. CARVER: If he takes on the C. I. A. and the Reagan Administration, his popularity will increase. Sen. D'AMATO: Well, let me tell you, the C. I. A. , for having this crook and this low life on the pad deserves to be -- LEHRER: We have to go, we have to go -- Senator, Mr. Carver, Mr. Fontaine, thank you. Robin? MacNEIL: Still to come on the NewsHour, Albert Gore on the stump, and blacks in college. On the Stump MacNEIL: Tonight we resume our coverage of major excerpts from the stump speeches of all the presidential candidates to hear them lay out their basic pitch to the voters. Tonight it's the turn of Democratic Senator Albert Gore of Tennessee, whose strategy has been to down play Iowa and New Hampshire and concentrate on the Southern states which hold a regional primary in early March, Super Tuesday. We caught up with him on February 8, at the University of Alabama, in Huntsville.

ALBERT GORE, presidential candidate: We have something else in common this year, and that's Super Tuesday, on March 8, and I'm looking forward to that as well. And I'm working very hard, spending more time in Alabama than all of the other candidates put together. And asking for your help in this contest. I just came from another Super Tuesday state, to Kentucky. And the governor of Kentucky, Wallace Wilkinson endorsed the Gore campaign this morning. Super Tuesday is going to dramatically change the nominating process. More than a third of the states involved in Super Tuesday are outside the South. And it is -- it's going to give the people at the grass roots level a bigger say in the outcome. Speaking of how close Alabama and Tennessee are, I've got family here. I'm claiming 50,000 cousins in Alabama between now and March 8. And several people have mentioned the fact that my father spent a good deal of time working on the TVA and other projects and programs of mutual concern. And I was telling the other day the story about my father's first race for the United States Senate. When he ran against the chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, a man named Kenneth D. McKellar. And my most vivid memory of that race is of the political sign that was on just about every telephone pole in the state. It said, ''The thinking feller votes McKellar. '' It's just so powerful, I wondered as a youngster how we were going to overcome that. My mother, who was one of the first two women to graduate from Vanderbilt Law School back in the '30s, thought up the counter to that sign, just two weeks before the election. This is a true story. Every place we found a sign that said, ''A thinking feller votes McKellar,'' we put another sign up right underneath it that said, ''Think some more, and vote for Gore. '' And it worked! One of the first challenges facing the next president of the United States is going to be to restore integrity and respect for the rule of law into the White House. This is something that normally Americans just take for granted. But we now have an Attorney General that's facing his third special prosecutor, putting a cloud over the administration of justice in this nation. And now, incredibly, the story is coming out about how the Reagan/Bush Administration knew that the head of Panama in Central America was involved in laundering money and selling drugs that come into the United States, and yet continued to maintain secret contacts and strong alliance with him. It's an outrageous story that is now developing. And we've had a long list of people in this administration who have been indicted and some convicted, and many more than that placed under a cloud. I think the next president of the United States must be prepared to say anybody who lies to the congress or the American people in this administration will be fired immediately. The main issues that have been emphasized in this campaign -- in my approach to the campaign -- have been the need for economic growth to rebuild our economic strength, the need for a new approach to nuclear arms control, the need for better environmental protection and better health care and renewed commitment to social security. But beyond those specific issues, which I'll be glad to explore in question, in response to your questions afterwards, I think that we need to look long and hard at exactly what is at stake in this election. I think this is one of the most important elections that we've ever faced in America. And I know that if any of you have watched politics and watched campaigns over the years, you know that in almost every election, somebody will say this is the most important election in the last 50 years. And sometimes it's true, and sometimes it's an exaggeration. This time, I really believe it's on the mark. I think we're at a point in the road, a turning point, a watershed, a time of critical choices. And what's called for is not just tinkering around the edges. What's called for is a fundamental change in the way we approach America's future. There is a new fear in the United States. And we must understand it clearly. It's a fear that our nation is on the decline. That we have seen our better days. That it's downhill from here. I don't believe that, but the public opinion pollsters ask people do you think your children will have a better standard of living than you do? And for the first time in the future of public opinion polls, Americans now answer that question by saying no. Now, we've got to understand that more of the same, the same blueprint, may take us down that road. But if we change, we can create a new American era. The era I described that began in 1945 for many reasons is now ending. But that doesn't mean that the America era is ending. We're not immune from the forces of history, and there are trends that we need to understand. There's a new book out about what's happened over the last 500 years to great nations in the world. Spain was once the preeminent nation on earth, and fell into a long decline and now sees it as a second rate problem. England was then the most powerful nation in the world. Fell into decline. And again, many now ask the question, Is America now travelling that same road? I believe we have the capacity to create a new American era. But we must understand that leadership, capable of lifting our sights and seeing our future in a new way, is the absolutely essential ingredient. We have got to approach the challenge completely differently. I think the arms race is one of the keys. The Soviet Union was the other big winner in 1945. And yet they now have a heavier burden. As a percentage of their GNP, they're spending more on the arms race than we are. They have larger standing armies and navies than we do. And there are signs that the new leadership in the Soviet Union sees the possibility of a fundamental change in the U. S. /Russian relationship. We need a president who's willing to negotiate from a position of strength in order to explore the possibilities of creating that changing relationship. And we need a transition in our approach to the world marketplace as well. We have to understand that in a world where Germany and Japan and these other nations are competing so successfully against us, we need to fashion our economic policy in terms of the world economy. President Reagan said the trade deficit is a sign of national strength. And budget deficits don't matter. I don't know of anybody in Alabama who believes that. We need more Alabama thinking in Washington, and less Washington thinking in Alabama. We need a new approach to our economic policy. And I think we can have that new approach. The day the stock market crashed, President Reagan came out on the White House lawn and he said, well the helicopter engines were going, so he didn't quite hear the question. You know every time they're tough questions, those helicopter engines are going (laugh). And he said, ''What? Crash?'' And then he said, ''They tell me I've got to go. '' Come to think of it, he's got a point there, I think he and George Bush do have to go. '' (applause) I need your help to win this election. And I want you to remember that you were part of this event today. When your great grandchildren come to you and say, ''I just read about that incredible, unbelievable election in 1988. Did you have anything to do with that?'' I want you to put your feet up by the fire and say, ''Yes! I was with President Gore early on!'' I need your help in this election. I want you to join with me. By working together we can create a bright future for America. We can rekindle the spirit of this country, reclaim control of our destiny and build a future with hope. Thank you very much for being here today. MacNEIL: We'll be concluding our set of stump speeches tomorrow night and Friday with Jesse Jackson and George Bush. In the Minority LEHRER: Campus racial problems are next tonight. Education Secretary William Bennett today delivered a progress report on the desegregation of colleges and universities. His survey dealt with Southern and border states. But the problems of integrating campuses are not limited to any one region of the country. Correspondent Elizabeth Brackett reports on the struggles of a prominent northern university system to solve the problem.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: It's a major midwestern university with a history and tradition of liberal thought. Yet, it's hard to find a minority student in many of its classrooms. In fact, minority enrolment at the University of Wisconsin has dropped 12% in the last 10 years. Today, minorities make up only 5. 5% of the student population. University President Kenneth Shaw. KENNETH SHAW, president, University of Wisconsin: It's a very serious problem. BRACKETT: Is it more serious than it was, has enrollment dropped significantly? Mr. SHAW: It's dropped from the '70s. It went up in the '70s, and nationally enrollment has dropped. Particularly for blacks and to a certain extent for Hispanics. BRACKETT: The drop in enrollment has followed a drop in resources for minority recruitment. At Wisconsin there are only three recruiters looking for minority students. Candace McDowell is the only black recruiter, and her travel budget is just $3,000 a year. As a result, she rarely recruits outside of Wisconsin. CANDACE McDOWELL: There are black students all over the country. There should be an increase in the resources and staff involved. And an increase in the budget for travel so that we can go out and talk to more students and hopefully bring in more students to the University. BRACKETT: Do you have the resources you need to do your job? Ms. McDOWELL: I don't think so, no.

BRACKETT: But Shaw says there are many reasons why universities have failed to reach their goals for minority recruitment. Mr. SHAW: One I think would be somewhat of a trend away from grants and more toward loans to students. And for a low income student, whether they're a minority or not, the thought of a $15,000 to $20,000 at the end of four or five years is very threatening if you come from a very low income family.

BRACKETT: President Shaw thought he had a solution. He proposed that all minorities with a C plus average receive what he called tuition remission. The press immediately called it free tuition. Parents of non minority students were horrified. GEORGINA RUCK, parent: I mean, why can't minorities be told the same things we told our kids -- if you want to go to college, you're going to have to work hard in high school. And if they work hard in high school and the finances of the parents are such that they cannot help, then they would qualify for a scholarship. As with my children.

BRACKETT: Minorities expected such a backlash, and opposed the plan from the start. Charles Holley heads the Black Student Union on campus. CHARLES HOLLEY, Black Student Union: We've had quite a few people who have called here at the Black Student Union office and I've talked to on the street who are very opposed to the idea of free tuition for minorities, but yet there are poor farm families in Wisconsin and their children can't get free tuition. So there's been quitea bit of negative backlash because of it. BRACKETT: What do you think of the idea? Mr. HOLLEY: Personally, I think that if you're going to give free tuition, it should be need based.

BRACKETT: Battered by the criticism, Shaw now calls his proposal a scholarship program and stresses that minority students must take strong college preparatory courses to qualify. Mr. SHAW: It's a proposal which basically says there's a scholarship for you if you can deliver. And you can't deliver if you don't take these courses. BRACKETT: Tell me the difference between the scholarship program and a free tuition program. Mr. SHAW: The difference is very simple. Free tuition implies that if you're a warm body, we have money for you. A scholarship implies that you've done something and in return you're going to be awarded something.

BRACKETT: Hearings on the proposal are now being held across the state. But Holley says it will take more than new financial incentives to bring minorities to the campus. Mr. HOLLEY: There was a steering committee on minority affairs here at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who put together seven concrete areas that the university needs to work on to make the climate better for minorities and also improve its recruitment and retention of minorities. And no one came up with the idea of free tuition.

BRACKETT: Blacks say one reason other blacks don't come to the University of Wisconsin is because of the atmosphere on campus. With only 722 blacks out of a student population of 43,000, black students say they feel isolated and alone. Mr. HOLLEY: You walk through the campus, you don't -- there are so few of us here, nobody has to speak to you, nobody has to acknowledge you. And really it's hard for us to see even each other because we're so spread out, we're so diffused and there are so few of us, that it's really hard.

BRACKETT: It's not just racial isolation that minorities face. Incidents of racial violence have occurred as well. Students at Wisconsin have protested the violence, but the hostile atmosphere is not unique to this university. In one recent survey of 16 campuses, four out of five black students said they had been the victims of racial slurs or attacks. Last spring at Wisconsin the Phi Gamma Delta Fraternity put up a caricature of a black man with a bone through his nose on their front lawn. There were protests, and the fraternity was disciplined. But this fall, members of the same fraternity wound up in a fight with the one black member of another fraternity. ANDRE JOHNSON, ZBT Fraternity: (unintelligible) and one of the members hit me in the face under the eye. BRACKETT: Was there any doubt in your mind at that point why they picked on you? Mr. JOHNSON: I was pretty sure, you know, because I was a black member of the fraternity. BRACKETT: What were they saying? Mr. JOHNSON: The guy that hit me, he was saying, ''Nigger,'' to me.

BRACKETT: The president of Phi Gamma Delta says the fight had nothing to do with race. GLEN THOMAS, Phi Gamma Delta: I believe it's more of just a brawl between some college students -- BRACKETT: According to Andre Johnson, I mean, there were words exchanged. He was called ''Nigger. '' He thought it was racially motivated. Mr. THOMAS: I know in the heat of a battle that something like that happened, that would be the result, that would be the cause. But I do not believe that it was a planned attack.

BRACKETT: Criminal charges were filed against the student who hit Johnson. But a university investigation blamed the incident more on alcohol than race and did not discipline the Phi Gamma Delta fraternity. The one member of each fraternity will be disciplined. But this incident and others made the problem of recruiting minorities that much harder. Law professor James E. Jones, one of just 27 black faculty members at Wisconsin, says all of the events have left him skeptical of any new plans to recruit minorities. JAMES E. JONES, professor, U. of Wis. : I am less than optimistic, and I've gotten to the point after 18 years of quietly screaming, loudly screaming, working in the system, etc. , that I'm unwilling to give anybody the -- I'm unwilling to decide that anybody's going to do anything until they do it. Now, if they don't know how to do it, I can introduce them to the football coach.

BRACKETT: But it may be the new chancellor, not the football coach, who brings some change to the university. This week she announced a major new minority recruitment plan. A plan she hopes will answer the complaints of minority students and faculty. DONNA SHALALA, Chancellor: Well, first, I think that we have to change the entire atmosphere of the place. BRACKETT: How do you go about changing the atmosphere of a university? Ms. SHALALA: Well, it has specific programs attached to it. Everything from programs from the moment a student walks into the campus, new orientation programs for the campus, curriculum changes, financial aid packages, recruiting minority faculty members. BRACKETT: Several of the students that we talked to, several black students, have said they would not tell a black student to come to this university right now. Ms. SHALALA: When these students see real commitment in financial aid, in counseling, in orientation, in the curriculum, in the faculty, they'll know that we're serious and that the nature of this institution is beginning to change. Recap LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Wednesday. Vice President Bush denied Senate testimony which said he had used Panama's military leader General Noriega to warn Fidel Castro not to intervene in the U. S. invasion of Granada in 1983. And the United States asked Israel to participate in an international conference to find a solution to the Palestinian problem. Good night, Robin. MacNEIL: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour tonight. And we will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.