The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

INTRO

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. The aftermath of the Grenada invasion still leads the news and our program tonight. As the fighting there stops, we have a report from Grenada by Charlayne Hunter-Gault and her exclusive interview with an aide to murdered Prime Minister Maurice Bishop. We also talk to a top State Department official, Kenneth Dam, about evidence revealed by captured documents. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: In addition to Grenada, we'll be looking at the decision by the people of Argentina to finally say no to the political legacy of Juan Peron; at a report from Massachusetts on hunger that goes against the government grain; at a statement from conservationists that goes against William Clark, the secretary of the interior; and at a man in Oregon who does what a lot of people do for tonight, Halloween night -- carve a pumpkin -- only he does it better. We also have a few words tonight about and from the late Lillian Carter, mother of a president.Grenada

MacNEIL: There was no fighting reported in Grenada today as the island, under U.S. military occupation, started to return to normal. Several hundred Marines were pulled out, leaving U.S. forces ashore at 5,000. The Governor General, Sir Paul Scoon, asked people to re-open their businesses, return to work and to school. The White House and the Pentagon acknowledged that a U.S. carrier-based bomber had mistakenly bombed a mental hospital. The incident, revealed by the Canadian newsmagazine MacLean's and the New York Post today, occurred on Tuesday, the first day of the invasion. The news accounts said 13 bodies had been recovered at the 183-patient hospital, and quoted a nurse as saying there will be many more. Pentagon officials today put the toll at 14 dead. White House spokesman Larry Speakes said the hospital was in an area thought to be exclusively military. The White House also said that the leader of the coup which brought on the invasion, General Hudson Austin, had been captured and was being questioned on a U.S. ship. Jim? Grenada

LEHRER: There were several Washington developments on Grenada today. House Speaker Thomas O'Neill announced he was sending a congressional leadership delegation to Grenada next weekend. Headed by Majority Whip Thomas Foley, the congressmen will seek information on how threatened American civilians there were before the invasion and whether the U.S. invasion force had adequate intelligence, among other things. The House is to vote tomorrow on whether to impose a 60-day War Powers restriction on the use of troops in Grenada; the Senate passed the measure last week, and O'Neill predicted the House will now do the same. At the White House, a senior press officer resigned over the way information was handled during the Grenada invasion. Leslie Jank, deputy press secretary for foreign affairs, said in his resignation letter to President Reagan that he had lost his personal credibility as a result, and the best thing to do was to quit. On a similar issue, the American Society of Newspaper Editors today lodged a formal protest with the Defense Department over its refusal to permit reporters to cover the first phases of the Grenada action. And the State Department said today U.S. troops found secret treaties which called for the training of Grenadian armed forces in the Soviet Union and the integration of Cubans into those forces. A spokesman said the treaties with the Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea had been signed by the late Maurice Bishop when he was prime minister of Grenada. Robin?

MacNEIL: The Pentagon has now relaxed those restrictions on reporting from Grenada, although telephone and telex communications are still difficult. On Friday, Charlayne Hunter-Gault was in the second group of journalists permitted on the island in tours organized by the U.S. military. She went back to Grenada over the weekend and compiled this report.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: We glimpsed Grenada for the first time since the invasion as we approached the island in the large C-130 provided by the Army. In the days that followed, that would be our routine. The Army would provide us with escorts and glimpses. Each day the window would open just a little more, enough to get an impression of what was going on there, but not enough to tell the whole story. But what we do know now begins here, at this 10,000-foot runway, one of the main ingredients in the U.S. case for the invasion. The United States argues that this airport was being readied to serve as a base for Cuban-Soviet operations throughout the Caribbean. It was here, in the Port Salines area, that the Army landed, encountering the first wave of resistance from fighters on the ground at the airport. Here we learned for the first time from a military official on the ground that the resistance was a lot stronger than they had anticipated. Vice Admiral Joseph Metcalf III, commander of the joint military operations, was asked why the intelligence was so poor.

Vice Adm. JOSEPH METCALF III, Commander, Joint Military Operations: How do I know? I'm not an intelligence officer. All we -- well, let's put it this way. It wasn't -- it wasn't what I would have desired, sir.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Up to now there had been conflicting reports of the size of the American military forces so we pressed Admiral Metcalf for a precise figure.

Adm. METCALF: Oh, I'd say it's about 10,000 sailors, Marines afloat.

1st REPORTER: Ten thousand afloat?

2nd REPORTER: So 15,000 American troops in the water and on land.

Adm. METCALF: That's right.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: The Army conducted its press tours by dividing us into two groups. Some of us were taken to see two Russian-made tanks that had been used against the Americans in the early hours of the invasion, then on to a compound just northeast of the airport where the second wave of fighting took place. This was also the second pillar in the U.S. case for the invasion. Several warehouses containing weapons and other materiel bearing Soviet, Chinese and Cuban markings. On the ground, military spokesmen offered their evidence to support President Reagan's charge that this sophisticated arsenal made it clear that a Cuban occupation of the island was planned.

MILITARY SPOKESMAN: This island is absolutely an arsenal. Everywhere -- you look around you. Everwhere around you there is stores of ammunition. There is enough arms and ammunition on this island to issue more than one weapon to every man, woman and child on the entire island. It's unbelievable.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: Having gotten the military point of view, many of us were anxious to find out what the Grenadian people thought. To give us a shot at that, our military tour guides took us by helicopter to the town of St. George's, but instead of civilians we ran into more military. Our arriaval at the sports field coincided with a landing of the multinational force, a 300-man unit made up of military and police from several neighboring Eastern Caribbean islands. We asked the commander of those troops, Colonel Ken Barnes, how long they expected American troops to occupy the island.

KEN BARNES, Commander, multinational forces: I think it's going to be maybe months.

REPORTER: Maybe months? Maybe six months?

Comm. BARNES: No, I don't think as long as that, but. . . .

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: But Marine Colonel Roy Smith had a different answer.

Col. ROY SMITH, USMC: I don't have any idea.

HUNTER-GAULT: Obviously this is an answer that nobody can give with any certainty. Given the commitment of men and materiel, it is clear that the original speculation that this campaign would be over quickly was probably overly optimistic. But amid all of that uncertainty, we found one area where there seemed little doubt. It was in the responses of the Grenadian people who were finally allowed to talk with us on our guided military tour.

REPORTER: Do you feel free now?

GRENADIAN WOMAN: Yeah, we feel free, but you know we still feel nervous and so.

REPORTER: Are you glad to see the Americans come in?

WOMAN: Yeah, we are very glad and really thankful to you and also to God for his mercy.

2nd GRENADIAN WOMAN: Well, we are very happy to have you all here.

REPORTER: You don't want the Cubans back?

WOMAN: No, no, no. No. Cubans. We want Americans.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: On subsequent day trips that we've taken, we learned that Grenadians are also helping the military in their efforts to ferret out members of the People's Revolutionary Army, the contingent that helped the Cubans resist the American invasion. As the military drove the press through St. George's, two men who had been fingered by Grenadians as members of the PRA were being arrested.

MILITARY SPOKESMAN: One is an intelligence officer in the PRA and the other appears to be possibly a company commander in the PRA. However, that's pretty common.

HUNTER-GAULT [voice-over]: The PRA are the military arm of the group which overthrew the Bishop government, assassinated Bishop and others, and sparked the invasion. On our tour we also learned that Grenadians had led the military to Deputy Prime Minister Bernard Coard and his wife Phyllis who reportedly masterminded the overthrow of Bishop. After four days, the official military tours ended, but not the questions. What we have now is mostly the official version of events. Now that the window to this picturesque but troubled little island will be opening wider, perhaps we will be able to find additional answers as well.

MacNEIL: After filing that report by satellite from Barbados, Charlayne has gone back to Grenada and will be sending a follow-up report in the next few days. In the meantime, she has also sent us an exclusive interview with an official of the goverment of Prime Minister Maurice Bishop, who was killed in the coup two weeks ago. The interview, which was taped in Barbados, is with Donald Rojas, Bishop's press secretary. Rojas said he was not killed because at the last minute Bishop asked him to go to the telephone office to tell the outside world what was happening.

HUNTER-GAULT: Part of the explanation for the invasion was that the United States feared a Soviet-backed, Cuban takeover of Grenada. What's your reaction to that?

DON ROJAS: Oh, I don't accept that at all, and I think that that is hyperbole and simply untrue and inaccurate.

HUNTER-GAULT: What was the role of Cuba in Grenada?

Mr. ROJAS: The Cuban presence in Grenada was one of cooperation with the People's Revolutionary government in developing Grenada economically and trying to lift Grenada out of a legacy of backwardness -- economic, social, political backwardness.

HUNTER-GAULT: So specifically what did that translate into in terms of what they were doing?

Mr. ROJAS: They were doing things like helping to build an international airport. They were not the only ones, by the way, assisting in building this international airport. Seventeen countries have given aid, including many Western countries, including the European Economic Community, including Venezuela, including Mexico have given assistance in the construction of this airport. Cubans were there to help build the airport. Cubans were there to help construct and set up other economic enterprises, such as an asphalt plant, such as a concrete and blockmaking plant which would have the capacity to produce up to 500 low-income housing units per year. The Cubans had doctors and dentists there. They had teachers. They had technicians and auto mechanics. In a variety of areas of economic cooperation there were Cuban personnel in Grenada assisting in the development plans of the country. There were of course also military personnel; that is undeniable.

HUNTER-GAULT: What were they doing there?

Mr. ROJAS: They were there on the invitation of the People's Revolutionary government to assist in training the People's Revolutionary Army. But to be trained -- to train the People's Revolutionary Army in the techniques of defensive warfare, not offensive warfare.

HUNTER-GAULT: One of the other pillars in the United States' case for the invasion was this huge arms arsenal near the airport. Were these arms that were being used to train Grenadians in self-defense, or what were those arms? You knew about -- those were not secret.

Mr. ROJAS: No, they were not secret to Grenadians.

HUNTER-GAULT: The Grenadian people knew about --

Mr. ROJAS: And one has to understand "huge" in relative terms. What does huge mean? I mean, they were automatic rifles; they were anti-aircraft guns. There were AK-47 rifles and so on, machine guns and so on. But -- and ammunition. Nothing extraordinarily sophisticated about that kind of weaponry.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, one of the officers, one of the military officers said that there were enough armaments there to arm the entire population of Grenada, including women and children.

Mr. ROJAS: One hundred thousand?

HUNTER-GAULT: One hundred thousand people?

Mr. ROJAS: There were one hundred thousand arms found?

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, he didn't say how many arms.He said that there was just an arsenal that was large enough to arm every man, woman and child in Grenada.

Mr. ROJAS: I don't know. I can't -- I can't argue with him, but I'm telling you --

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, you're saying that there was a legitimate reason for those arms.

Mr. ROJAS: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Given the history of hostility and aggression encountered by the Grenadian revolution ever since March of 1979, given the history of military maneuvers -- U.S. military maneuvers -- and, in many cases, NATO force military maneuvers in the Caribbean region from 1981 up until the first quarter of 1983 -- I draw your attention to the famous Marines operation of August of 1981, when a United States task force conducted military maneuvers off of Vieques Island, off of Puerto Rico, and it was a, in fact, a rehearsal for a potential invasion of Grenada. That is as far back of August of 1981. Subsequent to that they have been --

HUNTER-GAULT: Excuse me. Are you just saying that the Grendans feared that the United States was going to invade?

Mr. ROJAS: There was a lot of justification for apprehension on the part of the majority of Grenadians that there was either the real possibility or certainly the threat of military agression from the United States. And this is not recent, huh?

HUNTER-GAULT: This is during the Bishop regime?

Mr. ROJAS: Yes, this is during the Bishop regime. Certainly. I draw your attention, too, to President Reagan's speech in March of this year, the so-called "Star Wars" speech, in which he -- he said that Grenada was a threat to the national security interests of the United States -- tiny Grenada -- because of the airport which was supposed to be, in his view, being constructed as a Soviet and Cuban military base.

HUNTER-GAULT: You say that's not the case.

Mr. ROJAS: That is not the case.

HUNTER-GAULT: The Army in its argument that it's clear that this airport was being built as a base to export revolution by the Cubans cites the heavy concrete, the long lengthy -- what is it? -- 10,000-foot airport --

Mr. ROJAS: It is 9,000 feet, by the way.

HUNTER-GAULT: -- and they argue that clearly this was intended for large militarytype carriers.

Mr. ROJAS: No, but Charlayne, 9,000-foot runway is nothing abnormal in the Caribbean. In fact, that runway is the seventh -- would have been, upon completion, the seventh-longest runway in the Caribbean. I draw your attention to Grantley Adam's airport -- the length of the runway is over 10,000 feet. Does that in itself mean that, you know, Grantley Adam's airport is a military base? In fact, it is being, for all practical purposes, being used at the present moment as a military base. I mean, an airport is an airport.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, why do you think that so many Grenadans that the press has been able to talk to are so enthusiastic about the presence of the Americans now?

Mr. ROJAS: The people in Grenada, and I will say the majority of the people in Grenada, were relieved that the invasion brought a solution, I suppose, of sorts, in that it rid them of the yoke of the revolutionary and military gangsters and these madmen who had arrested the country at gunpoint. They are relieved at that. But, quite frankly, they did not expect, and I am now speaking out of my knowledge of the Grenadian people, I'm not speaking on behalf of the Grenadian people -- I don't have any such right -- but I would think that they certainly did not expect an invasion of such magnitude -- they certainly did not expect that an invasion would constitute the use of 5,000 Marines and other military personnel on land, the use of jet fighters and jet bombers, the use of medium and, in some cases, heavy artillery, the use of helicopter gunships, the destruction of much property on Grenada, and 10,000 troops on ships off the coast of Grenada ready to be deployed if necessary. In my view this is excessive. It is overkill.

HUNTER-GAULT: How do you see all this ending?

Mr. ROJAS: Well, I would hope it would end very quickly. I hope that as rapidly as possible all non-Grenadian forces be withdrawn from the country, and I would hope that the Grenadian people will be given the opportunity to exercise their right to determine and fashion the destiny of their own country, and the way in which they want to build their future. They alone can determine that and should be allowed to do that.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, along with Mr. Bishop, many of the ministers of the government were murdered; you are now out of the country. Who should form a new government?

Mr. ROJAS: Tough question. Very tough question. I don't know, quite frankly. The Grenadian people will have to decide that themselves. They will have to throw up their own leaders, and leaders cannot be imposed on them from the outside or prescribed by any foreign country. The Grenadian people themselves will have to choose their leaders.

LEHRER: Reaction to that interview and a further update on Grenada generally now from Kenneth Dam, the deputy secretary of state, number-two man at the State Department. Mr. Secretary, what is the schedule now for establishing an interim government or, as Mr. Rojas says, to let the Grenadian people now decide what kind of government they want?

KENNETH DAM: Well, that's a question for the Governor General. I understand that he said today that he hoped to be forming an interim government in several days, but it's his constitutional duty to do that, and it's up to him.

LEHRER: And from the United States' point of view, is there a schedule now or an anticipated schedule as to when U.S. troops will start moving out in large numbers?

Sec. DAM: Well, first of all, all of the Rangers, as I understand it, have now left, and we expect the Marines to be leaving within a few days. After that it remains to be seen. After all, there's still much of the island which we have not yet fully covered. There's still sniper fire and so it depends a bit on what happens.

LEHRER: But on the ground, the reports today that, for all practical purposes, the main fighting is over. That is correct, right?

Sec. DAM: Well, I would -- the way I would characterize it is to say that organized resistance is probably over, but there still is isolated fighting going on.

LEHRER: Well, what is the military mission now? To make sure that every ounce, or every square foot of land on Grenada is free of anybody with a weapon who might be used not only against American troops but against another Grenadian, and then when that happens then it will -- then the U.S. will leave?

Sec. DAM: Well, I think we have to leave the island in situation where the Caribbean defense force and the local police and so forth can maintain law and order, and there are constitutional processes in place. That is to say, an organized government is in control.So long as there is a possibility of a good deal more fighting I think we'd be derelict in our responsibilities if we were to leave.

LEHRER: But are we, as one of the men said in the earlier piece by Charlayne, are we talking about months now for the U.S. troops to remain there?

Sec. DAM: I don't -- I don't think we're talking about months when we're talking about these large numbers. What we may be able to do to facilitate the re-establishment of organized process of government and so forth remains to be seen. I don't want to prejudge what the -- first of all, what the actual military situation will be with regard to resistance. We don't know that much about what we remains. We don't know how many people are hiding out in the hills. We don't know what kind of armaments we have. I have seen reports that, as we go around the island, we find many more places where there are caches of weapons. And so we've got to establish the facts there before we can set a schedule.

LEHRER: Has the State Department or has the U.S. government established the facts on the mental hospital attack that apparently killed at least 14, maybe even more, people?

Sec. DAM: Well, let me tell you my understanding of it, subject to correction as we -- as the Pentagon nails down the remaining facts. When we were in the position of securing the safety of the Governor-General, we were receiving fire from the fort, Fort Fredericks, and in order to neutralize that we called in air support. We did not realize at that time that right next to the fort was a mental hospital. In fact, as I understand it, we did not realize until Sunday that there had been some civilian casualties as a result of the suppression of the hostile fire from Fort Fredericks.

LEHRER: Is the death toll that was mentioned -- that Robin mentioned at the top, about it? Fourteen dead.

Sec. DAM: That's my understanding of what we're talking about, but again, I don't have information that is that precise.

LEHRER: Now, let's go through some of the things Mr. Rojas told Charlayne. First of all, what do you think of his version of the Cuban connection with the Grenadan government under Maurice Bishop, for whom he worked?

Sec. DAM: Well, first of all, I thought it was interesting that, despite what he has been saying in the past and what the Bishop government said in the past, he is now conceding that there were Cuban military personnel there. These weren't just construction workers. In addition to that, there were Cuban military personnel. And he concedes, contrary to what was said before, that in those buildings -- Cuban-style buildings -- around the airport there were large volumes of weapons.As a matter of fact, there were very, very large indeed.Over a million rounds of ammunition had been made available by the Cubans and others to the Grenadians. So what we're now hearing is well, that it was just because they feared an invasion from the United States.

LEHRER: You don't buy that?

Sec. DAM: Well, I don't buy that because the fact of the matter is that when you look at the situation the volume of supplies is far too large for that. There also was an ideology of spreading this new view of the world. It's the same sort of pattern we've seen elsewhere where the Cubans have been involved -- in Angola and other places in Africa. In Nicaragua. It seems to me it's sort of confession and avoidance: "Yeah, what you say is true, but we were pure of heart." And in any event, the government of Mr. Bishop included these various people -- these very people who he's saying now are the only cause of the trouble.

LEHRER: You mean the people who turned on him?

Sec. DAM: Yes.

LEHRER: I see.

Sec. DAM: Obviously there was a struggle for power in that government and who's to say who was dealing with the Cubans to bring in all this material?

LEHRER: Well, now, you were one of -- I think you and William Clark were the two American officials who talked to Bishop when he was here, what was it? four months before the coup that led to his death. What did he say then about what the Cuban connection was?

Sec. DAM: Well, he didn't -- we didn't talk about it all that much because he came to see us and he had a pitch he wanted to give to us, which was he wanted better relations with the United States. And we said, well, we were prepared for better relations with Grenada. He had some ideas about how that might be -- might take place. He realized that, given the history, it couldn't happen instantaneously, so we talked about that.

LEHRER: But he didn't -- you didn't ask him or he didn't say what his deal was with Cuba or any of that sort of thing?

Sec. DAM: No. It was more or less taken for granted that he had this close connection with Cuba. It was implicit in the conversation, but we weren't questioning him.

LEHRER: Did he express to you the fear that Mr. Rojas expressed to Charlayne that they were arming or feared an invasion from the United States? Did he say, "Hey, Mr. Dam, please don't invade us?" or anything like that?

Sec. DAM: No. He said that we ought to have better relationships. It was silly for us to have this kind of tension between the two governments, and we said we agreed with that and -- but we had some doubts about the bonafides of his position. We were seriously worried about the human rights position on the island where he'd essentially locked up his opposition and kept them there for months and years. And we said we didn't see any basis, if he really wanted better relations, for the kind of attacks that he was carrying out against the United States verbally all the time, and we suggested that he lower his rhetoric.

LEHRER: And what did he say?

Sec. DAM: He didn't say too much about that. Then there was a period when it may have been a little lower rhetoric, but it ended quickly.

LEHRER: Finally, these secret documents, and you mentioned them yesterday in your appearance on Face the Nation. I think you called it a treasure trove of documents. Are those going to be made public?

Sec. DAM: Well -- excuse me. We certainly hope to do so. I think we have to recognize that these are Grenadian government documents that I was talking about, and so they're really the property of the Grenadian government. We will be consulting with them and we do hope to make them public.

LEHRER: And when they are made public they will prove what, in a nutshell?

Sec. DAM: The will prove that there -- well, first of all, there are many documents, and I was only referring to certain ones. The ones I was referring to are supply contracts covering a period of years between Grenada on the one hand and the Soviet Union on the other, Cuba on the other and North Korea. They will show that we haven't even seen all of the armaments that were coming. They will also show that the Soviet Union was trying to hide its hand by shipping through Cuba.

LEHRER: I see. Mr. Secretary, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Druse gunners and the Lebanese army exchanged fire in the hills overlooking Beirut today while in Geneva Lebanon's warring factions sat down to try to create a more stable political system. Gillian Guthrie of Viznews has a report from Geneva.

GILLIAN GUTHRIE, Viznews: Lebanese President Amin Gemayel fired the first verbal shot with a speech in which he stressed that if his country continued to burn, the fire would spread far beyond its borders. Opposite, and listening quietly, were members of the National Salvation Front, including militant Druse leader Walid Jumblatt and Shiite militia leader Nabih Berri. The main topics of contention are Israeli and Syrian occupation of parts of Lebanon and the balance of religious and political groups in the country's parliament. Although the talks are the most ambitious yet for peace in Lebanon, no one is expecting them to produce an immediate cure for years of bitterness, hatred and war.

MacNEIL: An additional 150 to 200 Marines arrived at Beirut airport yesterday and were deployed to strengthen security at the Marine base following the terrorist bombing eight days ago. The Marines also announced that all non-essential staff will move to U.S. warships offshore to improve security. They include clerks and maintenance crews, who will return to shore when their services are needed. Jim?

LEHRER: The Senate Armed Services Committee today took up the subject of Marine security at the Beirut airport, particularly as it was a week ago Sunday when the suicide truck drove into the Marine headquarters building. The committee took it up with General Paul X. Kelley, the commandant of the Marine Corps, and here's how it went.

Gen. PAUL X. KELLEY, USMC Commandant: Obviously the command and security arrangements were inadequate to counter this form of kamikaze attack. But in all honesty, I have yet to find any shred of intelligence that would have alerted a reasonable and prudent commander to this new and unique threat. There was no indication of a capability to undertake such a task, such a monumental and with such precise action. It is my professional opinion that our Marines have been targeted for terrorism by highly professional, non-Lebanese elements. In my view, these acts of violence will continue, and the perpetrators will carefully examine and analyze our vulnerabilities and make every effort to exploit them. In short, I firmly believe that highly sophisticated and well-trained terrorists will target our Marines in months to come. Therefore, I do not believe that we can ever create an effective passive capability which can counter each and every form of terrorism in Lebanon, or, for that matter, in any other part of the world. I believe, first, that our security measures were not adequate to stop a large, heavily-laden truck loaded with 5,000 pounds of high explosives traveling at high speed and driven by a suicide driver which executed the attack in seconds from start to finish. This flying truck bomb was an unprecedented escalation in the terrorist threat, both in size of the weapon and in method of delivery. I must continue to emphasize, however, that under our current disposition, restrictions and mission, we will always have vulnerability, and that the other side will make every effort to exploit them.

LEHRER: The number of Marines and other military personnel killed in the Beirut attack stands tonight at 230. As anyone who has watched television news over the weekend knows, their bodies, as well as those killed in Grenada, are being brought home, the first stopover being an Air Force base at Dover, Delaware. There have been ceremonies there of music and words, of sadness and tears; first, early Saturday morning, then again on Sunday morning, and today there was another. A look now at those ceremonies.

CHAPLAIN: When one man dies it is as if a whole world was destroyed. How many worlds we mourn. We do not mourn 16. We mourn one and one and one and one.

LEHRER [voice-over]: The names added to the Beirut and Grenada death list since Friday are these. BEIRUT: Dead

Pvt. J. Allman, Carlsbad, N.M.; Cpt. J. Boccia, Northport, N.Y.; Cpl. C. Cook, Advance, N.C.; Cpl. D. Lewis, Garfield Heights, Ohio; Lance Cpl. J. Muffler, Philadelphia, Pa.; Master Sgt. J.L. Pearson, Savannah, Ga.; Sgt. P. Prindeville, Gainesville, Fla.; Sgt. J.R. Rodriguez, Miami, Fla.; Sgt. T. Thorstead, Chesterton, Ind.; Pvt. D. Vallone, Palmdale, Ca.; Cpl. B.D. Wherlan, Lawndale, Ca.; Sgt. S. Williams, Charleston, S.C. Missing

Cpl. D. Thompson, Bronx, N.Y. GRENADA: Dead

Machinists Mate K.J. Butcher, West Islip, N.Y.; Sgt. S.E. Slater, Lacey, Wash.

MacNEIL: There were two court actions involving well-known people today. In Los Angeles, a judge ordered the arrest of Larry Flynt, publisher of Hustler magazine.Flynt failed to obey a judge's order to surrender a recording in which, according to Flynt, a government agent threatens automaker John Delorean. Delorean has been charged with conspiracy to distribute millions of dollars worth of cocaine. He was arrested by government agents posing as drug dealers. Flynt claims the tape shows a government agent threatening to harm Delorean's daughter. Flynt's lawyer said the publisher is afraid he will be killed if he leaves his heavily-guarded house. The judge gave him 24 hours to appear in court.

In Kansas City, a federal judge ordered a new trial for Christine Craft, the former TV anchorwoman who won a fraud/sex discrimination suit in August. But, on grounds that publicity surrounding the case have affected the jury, the judge ordered a new trial on the fraud finding under which Ms. Craft was awarded half a million dollars in damages. Thejudge said he was convinced the verdict was excessive.

Jim?

LEHRER: The Sierra Club, one of the nation's largest conservation groups, opened fire on William Clark today. Clark, an old friend of President Reagan and his former national security adviser, has been nominated to be secretary of the interior. Tomorrow, Clark appears before a Senate committee in the first step toward a vote on his confirmation. Today, the Sierra Club officials joined with those from another wilderness group, the Wilderness Society, to oppose it.

WILLIAM TURNAGE, Wilderness Society: The American people are being given a wolf in sheep's clothing for a secretary of interior. To the extent he has revealed his environmental views in his judicial opinions, he has demonstrated an overwhelming and unrelieved bias in favor of development over the interests of conservation. A recent analysis of his decisions and assents on environmental cases while serving on the California supreme court placed him so far to the development extreme that he stood virtually alone among the justices in the strength and consistency of his anti-environmental views. We ask the Senate to advise the President that America needs a chief conservation officer who is among America's chief conservationists.

DENNY CHAFFER, Sierra Club: We continue to wait for some signal from the administration that it is determined to correct the course taken at Interior during the last 2 1/2 years. Willian Clark, best known as President Reagan's Mr. Fixit, is supremely unqualified to become America's next environmental overseer.

LEHRER: Greyhound lines, the nation's largest intercity bus company, may shut down tonight. A strike of its 12,700 drivers and other union employees is considered likely unless a last-minute settlement is reached by midnight, Mountain Time. A federal mediator is involved in the negotiations in Scottsdale, Arizona between Greyhound and the amalgamated council of Greyhound's local unions. The issue is money. Greyhound has asked its employees to take a salary cut for competitive economic reasons. It's a cut the union says would be a return to 1960 wages. If there is a strike, Greyhound says it will shut down only a few days while replacement drivers and other workers are hired.

Robin? Hunger in Massachusetts

MacNEIL: Last August President Reagan appointed a special task force to look into the extent of hunger in this country. It's expected to report later this year. In the meantime, others have been doing their own studies. Today, the state of Massachusetts released a report saying that malnutrition is a significant health problem among poor young Massachusetts children. The report, by the state Department of Public Health, said that as many as 17,500 of these children may be suffering from inadequate food intake over a prolonged period of time, causing retarded growth, learning difficulties and health problems.

[voice-over] The report, The Massachusetts Study, was released by the state's political leaders, who have been critical of federal cutbacks in food programs.

Gov. MICHAEL DUKAKIS, (D) Mass.: Although nothing surprises me these days, particularly after the events of the past week, it is shocking and a matter of very deep personal concern for me to look at the results of this study and to find that once again we have very serious, basic problems, in this case involving malnutrition in children.

CHESTER ATKINS, Massachusetts State Senator: The results of that study are, in a word, shocking. They are a savage indictment of the neglect that has occurred on the national level and the neglect that we have allowed to happen on the state and the local level in terms of the nutrition of our children.

GERRY DIMICO, Massachusetts State Senator: It was once described, when we in fact looked at the prototype of studying hunger in America, and looked at the original national commission on hunger that was so involved with the thinking of Senator Robert Kennedy, that there were towns in America that were called "hunger towns" that had pockets of deep, depressing hunger and malnutrition. I would suggest to you that we have school districts in this Commonwealth that could be called "hunger school districts," that have children -- too many children -- who are affected by poverty, affected by hunger and affected by malnutrition. And I would relate in the most forceful terms that these are major detriments to educational accomplishment and achievement in those school districts and for those children and their families.

MacNEIL [voice-over]: The report on hunger dominated a hearing today at Boston's Faneuil Hall held by the Citizen's Commission on Hunger in New England, a group formed last year. Larry Brown is its chairman.

LARRY BROWN, Citizen's Commission on Hunger: Well, at this point in time, what we're finding is what the public already knew, only we're documenting it more with hard date -- that there has been just a dramatic increase in the amount of hunger in our country and particularly in our region in the last two or three years. What we are finding. though, hearing from the witnesses before the commission, both federal officials and state officials and then people working at church and social service institutions is that the dramatic rise in hunger corresponds with both the bad economy, the recession, and the fact that there have been such a substantial cutback in federal programs during the past two or three years. That is, that what we are hearing is that there is a direct cause-and-effect relationship between the federal government cuts and the dramatic rise in hunger in our nation.

MacNEIL [voice-over]: In addition to health experts and politicians, there was testimony by a man who has experienced the problem of hunger first-hand.

GEORGE BARILONE, welfare recipient: We who depend on welfare checks and food stamps are barely existing as time goes on. As months and years have passed, we have fallen below the poverty level more and more simply because we cannot replace all the necessary things we need to exist with dignity. With an AFDC check twice a month and food stamps once a month for a total of $721, we are able to live for about three weeks in a near normal capacity, but the last week of the month means being broke and without food stamps. That means our refrigerator is empty and our cupboards are bare, and my three children, ages 16, 13 and 11, are big eaters and constantly asking me when I am going shopping because there's nothing to eat. It sure does hurt me to tell them we won't be able to eat right for a few more days until we get our welfare check and food stamps.Why doesn't someone do something to rid this great country of ours of hunger? Shame on the government and shame on the state.We can help feed people in foreign countries, but we're not doing a very good job here. There's something wrong here.

MacNEIL [voice-over]: But not everyone was impressed with the study or the testimony. Former Massachusetts Governor Ed King, a member of the President's commission on hunger, attended today's session and was skeptical.

ED KING, former Massachusetts governor: To the best of my knowledge, there have been no cutbacks. It may be that everyone who would want more, every governmental agency, hasn't been able to have that much more budgeted for them, but there have been no cutbacks, and my thinking would be that if there were people that a state administration knew in fact were hungry and going without, that rather than quibble about federal aid, they certainly should take care of the people in the meantime. It's a relatively small amount of money in a state that's doing very well, a very good economy, a robust economy, if I may say. In a $7-billion-plus budget I can hardly see letting people be hungry. If in fact the commission or others know they are and not do something about it other than to suggest that someone else should pick up the burden.

MacNEIL: The reports of both the President's task force and the Citizen's Commission on Hunger are due to come out later this year, and we'll be following the story. Jim?

LEHRER: Some 25,000 people remained homeless in the mountains of Eastern Turkey today following a devastating earthquake yesterday that destroyed at least 50 villages, killed 1,226 people and seriously injured 534. The Turkish government and various private relief groups are rushing tents, heavy blankets and sleeping bags to the homeless survivors who now face death because of freezing weather, that coming in rain and snow.

And in the Persian Gulf there was another kind of grim news: Iraq claimed tonight it had destroyed three Iranian naval ships, and two others were wrecked by mines. The ships were near the port of Bandar Khomeini at the head of the Persian Gulf. There has been no immediate response from the Iranians, but if the Iraqi report is correct, it could lead to serious consequences. Iranian officials, including one on this program two weeks ago, said such action could lead to Iran's closing the Straits of Hormuz, and thus all oil-tanker traffic in and out of the Gulf. Robin? Argentines Elect Non-Peronist

MacNEIL: In political terms there was an earthquake over the weekend in Argentina. The presidential elections to replace the seven-year-old military regime were won by Raul Alfonsin of the Radical Civic Union Party. For the first time in four decades, the grip of the Peronist party on Argentine politics was broken. Here is a report from John Simpson of the BBC.

JOHN SIMPSON, BBC [voice-over]: All evening long, sensing victory, the Radicals converged on their headquarters. It was a scene for people to remember their lives long as genuinely moderate government came closer with each declaration. There was none of the barely suppressed violence that often marred Peronist party rallies.People had come determined to enjoy themselves. But the achievement belonged mostly to one man, and when he arrived the crowd's devotion was so great he could hardly get through.

Raul Alfonsin had the reputation of being "the best leader Argentina never had." Now, at the most critical moment in its recent history, his time has come. But when he finally made it to the balcony to accept the fervent congratulations, he spoke solemnly of the need to ensure that political freedom was entrenched in a country which hasn't seen much of it in the past half century. Alfonsin knows, even if everyone else was set on having a good time, that a lot of sacrifice lies ahead if the economy is to be righted.

For the time being, a Radical crowd had a Radical victory to celebrate, and that was enough. They've been dismissed as middleclass and pro-American, "The Coca-Cola Party," but their moderation won in a country sick of extremism. The contrast with the defeated Peronist candidate, Italo Luder, couldn't have been greater. Luder himself is also a decent and moderate man, but his party, with its sometimes savage extremes of left and right, doesn't easily forgive failure. And, as Luder disappeared into the first morning light, the few followers who shared his sorrow found it hard to believe that one of the world's greatest mass movements could have been deserted by the masses.

MacNEIL: To help us understand the results of the Argentine election, we have Jorge Hugo Herre-Vegas, a career diplomat and currently in charge of the Argentine Embassy in Washington. Mr. Herre-Vegas, how do you explain the defeat of the Peronistas?

JORGE HUGO HERRE-VEGAS: Well, there are many reasons to explain the defeat of the Peronistas, but the country needed a change, felt that it needed a change, and the change was bigger than it was suspected by any political observer. I could say that the defeat was bigger than it could have been imagined.

MacNEIL: The tasks facing the new government on the economic front particularly will, as the BBC reporter said, demand sacrifice and perhaps difficult times. Will the military and will the Peronistas permit the Radicals to rule?

Mr. HERRE-VEGAS: I think that the margin of the victory surpassed -- the popular vote of Raul Alfonsin surpassed the 50% mark. It was considered, I think, more than enough to give him the necessary tools to perform his job. The job is not easy, as you said. The problem of the foreign debt, for instance, it's a $40-billion debt with a $4-billion service a year with only $8- or $9-billion exports earning is -- I mean, the problem is very serious.

MacNEIL: What kind of government will he form? It was described as middle-of-the-road, moderate government. What does that mean? What are the -- what are the policies in terms that we can understand? Republican, Democrat here, social-democrat in Europe. What does it most resemble?

Mr. HERRE-VEGAS: I would say that the platforms, the ideas expressed by both parties during the campaign are quite similar in economic matters, in international affairs, so you wouldn't find many differences there. Sociologically, though, the Peronist party is mainly a working-class party and the Radicals are a middle-class party. So the idea of moderation, maybe it comes from that composition, I would say.

MacNEIL: What will their foreign policy be, for instance, on something very close to the United States? I mean, say, in Central America. Will they be sympathetic to the Contadora Group who are trying to organize negotiations, or the Sandinistas in Nicaragua or the United States efforts there? Where would they most likely come down, would you say?

Mr. HERRE-VEGAS: In Central America, the position is going to be based on the principle of non-intervention in internal affairs of peoples, which is a traditionally supported position by Argentina. We have had some clashes in the past with the United States on this matter. Now, with respect to the Contadora Group, yes, we have supported the idea of the Contadora Group for a solution of the Central American problem, and already the present government has expressed that support, and I think the Radical Party will go on supporting that as well.

MacNEIL: How is the new president going to tackle the problem you mentioned of the foreign debt? The head of the Argentine national bank was briefly arrested and detained for questioning when he returned a few weeks ago during the election campaign from having negotiated -- attempted to negotiate some of the repayments on the debt. Is there any sympathy in the new government for repudiating the debt or stopping payments?

Mr. HERRE-VEGAS: None whatsoever. Both the Peronists and the Radicals expressed clearly the determination of Argentina to pay its debts. Maybe we will need some kind of rescheduling at the light of what I told you. We need to have a margin of imports to allow our industrial sector to produce its output, to pay the salaries and other incomes of the workers, but with some help -- and we have been receiving help from the American authorities: Secretary of the Treasury Regan and the Secretary McNamara [sic] as well -- so I think that we are going to be able to, at least in 1984, to put the problem on a way for its solution.

MacNEIL: Well, Mr. Herre-Vegas, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this day.

On Grenada the fighting has all but stopped as U.S. officials question Hudson Austin, the man who led the bloody coup which started much of Grenada's recent troubles.And the House began debate on a 60-day War Powers limit on the U.S. troop's presence there.

On Lebanon, new security arrangements were announced for the Marines at the Beirut airport, and that important reconciliation meeting among Lebanon's warring factions began in Geneva.

Also, 25,000 people are homeless from an earthquake in Turkey that has killed more than 1,100.

And Argentina, as we've just heard, has launched a new political day.

Robin?

MacNEIL: Mrs. Lillian Carter, mother of President Jimmy Carter, died of bone cancer yesterday in a hospital in Americus, Georgia. She was 85 years old.Ms. Lillian, as everybody called here, was described as a liberated woman before it was popular. In an interview in 1977, I asked her how she felt during the civil rights struggle in the South.

LILLIAN CARTER: I'm not a deeply religious person, but I think maybe I was a Christian all the way through because I just wanted everybody to have equal opportunities.

MacNEIL: Did that make trouble for you all your life, that attitude?

Ms. Carter: Yes, it did make trouble for me. All my life it's made trouble. I've had to stand a lot of things, a lot of talk against me, but I learned to take it, and I just didn't care. The last 20 years of my life I haven't cared what anybody said. I taught my children this one thing, among their love of reading. I didn't teach them to read. They watched me read in front of my example. But I taught them to do what they felt was right and not to worry about criticism.

MacNEIL: Would you think of yourself, Ms. Lillian, as a typical Southern woman?

Ms. Carter: No.

MacNEIL: In what way aren't you?

Ms. Carter: Well, I'm not the delicate type that the Southern women have always portrayed. I'm pretty tough. I'm a sports lover.I wear pants suits all the time. And I don't think Southern women ordinarily do those things, and hardly a woman my age would admit to having a drink every evening. And I also smoke, and if you smoke, you don't let anybody know it. I don't think I'm typically Southern. I don't think I'm typically anything.

MacNEIL: Lillian Carter will be buried tomorrow near the family home in Plains. Jim?

LEHRER: And, finally, there are few of us who haven't at some time tried to carve a pumpkin for Halloween. Getting the nose and the eyes the correct size and shape, the teeth to be craggy perfect, the proportions of everything just right is no easy task. It is for the special envy of all of us who have tried so many times to get it right and never quite made it that we show you Sam Gendusa of Dayton, Oregon.

[voice-over] He is a sculptor, and every Halloween for the past 17 years he has taken his mallet and chisel to a giant pumpkin.

SAM GENDUSA, sculptor: For some strange reason I can remember as a child, I can remember when I was about 10 or 12 years old, and I remember walking down the street and the lights in Chicago had all been blacked out through some Halloween pranksters, and I was walking along the street and every year a certain lady used to carve a very creative pumpkin. She'd put it in the window with a little special light or a candle inside of it, and to me that was the most delightful thing I could remember seeing. And I was only 10 or 12 at the time, but I remember it distinctly. And year after year she did it, and I kind of vowed that if I became a grown-up artist that I wouldn't forget. And I haven't.

[sculpting at a mall booth]

1st VIEWER: How do you go about choosing your particular pumpkin?

Mr. GENDUSA: I got a grower that will grow them for me. And these are special seeds. They're -- you know, it's a hybrid seed, grows real big.

1st VIEWER: And how many total hours will you have in this pumpkin when you finish? Do you have any idea?

Mr. GENDUSA: Oh, probably seven.

2nd VIEWER: How long will it last?

Mr. GENDUSA: It will stay here for about three days, and then they're going to feed it to the pigs. That's all you can do with it.

3rd VIEWER: Is that a real pumpkin?

Mr. GENDUSA: Why don't you come over and touch it and find out?

3rd VIEWER: Well, what will -- why touch it?

Mr. GENDUSA: Well, because then you'd verify it.

3rd VIEWER: It is real pumpkin!

Mr. GENDUSA: It sure is. It's real.

3rd VIEWER: Well, where is your pattern and what are you going by?

GENDUSA: Pattern? I'm a sculptor. Here's my pattern. I just draw it out and I draw it on there and I carve it.

3rd VIEWER: Absolutely beautiful!

Mr. GENDUSA: Thank you.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: Good night, Jim. That's our NewsHour tonight. We will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.