The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. In the headlines today, the Federal Reserve lowered its bank lending rate to the lowest point in six years. A pilots' strike shut down United Airlines, the nation's largest airline, disrupting air travel the government wants 3,800 railroad tank cars inspected for hazardous material leaks. Robert MacNeil is away tonight; Charlayne Hunter-Gault is in New York. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: In the NewsHour table of contents, tonight the following: a news summary, plus two focus sections, a newsmaker interview and a profile. Debating the causes and impact of that United strike with a pilot and an airline official makes up our first focus, followed by a newsmaker interview with the optimistic president of El Salvador, Jose Napoleon Duarte. We look at how and why the United States Football League is fighting for its life. And Jim Lehrer profiles the theater's newest wunderkind, Peter Sellars. News Summary

LEHRER: The Federal Reserve made news late today. It lowered its lending rate to banks, known as the discount rate, to 7.5 . It has not been that low in more than six years. The move was seen as a step to stimulate the sluggish economy. Lowering the rate means banks and other financial institutions will have more money to loan to their customers, and they will be able to loan it out at a lower rate. The cut goes into effect Monday. Charlayne?

HUNTER-GAULT: Thousands of passengers at airports around the country were stranded today as a pilots' strike against the nation's largest airline got underway. Talks between the union and United Airlines broke down last night in a dispute over wages. An airline official said they would concentrate on providing service at major airports in places like Denver and Chicago, the home of both the union and United. Correspondent Elizabeth Brackett has more on that story from Chicago.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT [voice-over]: United Airlines passengers arrived on time this morning, but United Airlines pilots met those passengers on the curb, not in the cockpit. Pickets were up across the country as the nation's largest airline was hit by its first pilot strike in 34 years. And striking pilots were calling their airline unsafe.

Capt. BRUCE WILKINSON, striking pilot: It's not nearly as safe in operation because of the experience level that's out there.

BRACKETT: Would you fly United right now?

Capt. WILKINSON: No, ma'am.

BRACKETT: Do you think it's unsafe?

Capt. WILKINSON: Yes, ma'am, I sure do.

Capt. LLOYD BERRY, vice president, United Airlines: That's an absurd statement. I can assure you that the quality of the operation today and in the future is the same as it always has been -- high.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Berry claimed to have nearly 500 of United's 5,000 pilots ready to fly, some of them newly hired pilots who had responded to this United newspaper ad recruiting pilots in anticipation of the strike. But United's numbers were hotly disputed by striking pilots, who said only three newly hired pilots had crossed the line. Waiting United passengers could only hope somebody would fly the airplanes.

1st PASSENGER: I'm mad at United and the pilots and, ooh, well, I don't know, the whole works. Because I had my tickets a month ahead, so -- and I have one of those penalty tickets where you couldn't change 'em. So, you know, I was really stuck.

2nd PASSENGER: They told me my flight is cancelled and that lot'sof luck, they hope I can get there.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Striking pilots claim to have nearly shut down the airline, but about 10 of United's flights were operating at Chicago's O'Hare Airport, United's headquarters.

[on camera] As United pilots cross the line, the word is received here in United systems operation control center in Chicago. The pilot is then matched with a crew and assigned to the next priority flight. United says as more pilots return, they will continue to add more flights.

[voice-ove] Travel agents were nearly as beleaguered as the airlines. Most gave clients with United tickets this advice.

TRAVEL AGENT: To go out to the airport and get in line if you have to get someplace.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Those who took that advice found the lines long and the wait discouraging. Many tried the competition, but without much drop in the frustration level.

3rd PASSENGER: No one seems to want to take responsibility for the inconvenience to the passengers.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Though negotiators were reportedly close to an agreement last night, no one was predicting an early settlement today, and everyone was predicting a difficult holiday weekend for travelers if the strike continues through Memorial Day.

HUNTER-GAULT: The federally mediated talks broke down over United's proposal to start new pilots at lower salaries and slow their raises. United said it must make the move in order to remain competitive. The union argues that such a two-tier system would create hostility and jeopardize safety. We'll hear from both the pilots and United after the news summary. Jim?

LEHRER: Jesse Jackson met again today with State Department officials about the hostages in Lebanon. Family members of three Americans being held by a radical Islamic group joined in the meeting. The three hostages are Associated Press reporter Terry Anderson and two ministers, the Reverend Benjamin Weir and the Reverend Martin Lawrence Jenco. After today's meeting Jackson said all efforts to secure their release are justified.

Rev. JESSE JACKSON: The presence of [audio interruption] and the public appeals has shifted priorities in the State Department, and the worldwide attention that our appeals are now getting and our attempt to go to the Middle East is shifting priorities. I would think that when Ambassador Oakley said that he respected and appreciated our private initiatives and his interpretation of government policy as being a willingness to appeal to the captors, represents some flexibility. After all, the practical situation here is not one's position relative to terrorism, but how can we somehow save the lives of human beings and at the same time not threaten in any way our national security.

LEHRER: Ambassador Robert Oakley, head of the State Department's counterterrorism office, did say the department is willing and happy to support any reasonable Jackson effort to free the Americans. President Reagan expressed a similar sentiment late this afternoon as he left the White House for a weekend at Camp David.

Pres. RONALD REAGAN: We're doing everything we can, and I think you'll understand when I tell you I can't discuss any details or anything. If Jesse Jackson can do anything, that'd be just fine.

LEHRER: An Irish U.N. official who had been kidnapped Wednesday in Beirut was released late yesterday. Aiden Walsh, the deputy director of the U.N. agency that aids Palestinian refugees, was uninjured. Today he said he did not know the identity of his kidnappers.

AIDEN WALSH, former U.N. hostage: I was taken on Wednesday morning at about a quarter past seven by eight unknown, unidentified armed men. I was held for 36 hours inside a van, and I don't know the location of the van because I was not allowed to see either the people or the location at any time. They questioned me a lot on my nationality, and I think when they became finally convinced that an UNRWA was nothing evil and that being Irish was a fairly safe thing to be, they then said okay, and they took me out and released me about one kilometer away from here at about eight o'clock yesterday afternoon -- yesterday evening.

LEHRER: Also in Lebanon, there was another act of terrorism today. A car bomb exploded outside a Druse militia office in West Beirut. Eight people were injured. No group claimed credit for the explosion.

HUNTER-GAULT: Another part of the budget battle is shaping up in Washington, where Republicans today attacked the package of proposed budget cuts drafted by House Democrats. The Democratic plan, scheduled to be voted on by the full House next week, calls for a freeze on defense spending as well as on most domestic spending programs. It would not, however, touch Social Security benefits. Senate Republican leaders said that if the plan is approved by the House, they will seek to change it in conference committee.

Sen. ROBERT DOLE, (R) Kansas, Senate Majority Leader: We on the Senate side are disappointed. We believe that we demonstrated that we're serious about deficit reduction in the Senate, and we would hope that the House maybe in the next -- if they take it to the floor next week, that someone on the House side would offer some amendments to restore some of the real cuts and also to try to repair the damage in the defense area.

Sen. PETE DOMENICI, (R) New Mexico, chairman, Senate Budget Committee: Frankly, I -- more than anything else today, I'm disappointed, because I really thought this was a year to adopt a budget in both houses of the United States Congress that was equal to the task we have. None of us like this job, but basically we're doing it because we want to preserve the economy, and in order to do that you have to have a budget that over a two- or three-, four-year period really reduces the deficit in a consistent, credible manner. Frankly, that isn't true with the House budget.

LEHRER: In other overseas news today, 49 people are now confirmed dead in a coal mine disaster in Japan. A gas explosion ripped through the mine 560 miles north of Tokyo. Three hundred and thirty-six miners were in the mine at the time. An estimated 12 are still trapped inside the mine and are presumed dead.

In Cairo, Egyptian and Israeli negotiators ended three days of talks without an agreement on a summit meeting between Egyptian President Mubarak and Israeli Prime Minister Peres. And in Tel Aviv, the Israeli government said it was willing to return any unused krytrons, an electronic triggering device for atomic and other weapons. A California businessman was indicted yesterday for illegally exporting a hundred of them to Israel since 1980. An Israeli defense official said some could not be returned because they were destroyed in tests, but the rest could be and will be if so requested by the United States.

HUNTER-GAULT: Ten people have been hospitalized and some 20 others are showing symptoms of Legionnaires's Disease after attending a dinner at a suburban Detroit hotel. So far there's believed to be only one confirmed case, a 77-year-old man who was in critical condition today at a Detroit hospital. Wayne County officials said today that health investigators would try to track down some 350 others who attended the April 27th banquet at the Hilton Airport Inn in Romulus, Michigan. Keith Tate of the Wayne County Health Department says the outbreak appears to be limited only to those who were at the April 27th dinner.

KEITH TATE, Wayne County Health Department: At this time we have checked other parties that were at the facility during the week as well as after the event, and we have not had any reports of anybody else being ill associated with any other event at that facility. So at this time I'd have to say no.

HUNTER-GAULT: Legionnaire's Disease is a form of pneumonia which was first identified in 1976 when 29 people died from it in Philadelphia.

The National Transportation Safety Board today urged federal railroad officials to inspect 3,800 railroad tank cars used to transport hazardous materials. An investigation into an incident last December revealed welding cracks in a leaking tank car in Arkansas. Safety officials have concluded that routine operations could cause the cracks, and a spokesman for the manufacturer has advised all buyers of the cars to return them for modification.

LEHRER: Our last story in the news of the day is one from in-house. Ed P ster resigned as president of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the agency which dispenses federal money to public television and radio stations and other public broadcasting organizations. P ster said his sudden leaving was prompted by the CPB board's vote to withdraw support for a Public Broadcasting Service trade mission to the Soviet Union in the fall. P ster said that vote threatened the independence of PBS because it was of a political nature. CPB board chairman Sonia Landau denied it was politics. She said CPB does not interfere in PBS affairs and that "the whole thing was a nonissue." P ster headed the public television station in Dallas-Fort Worth before becoming president of CPB in 1981. Unfriendly Skies

HUNTER-GAULT: Our first focus section tonight looks at the causes and impact of that pilots' strike at United Airlines. At issue is a United plan to reduce the starting salary for newly hired pilots as well as maintain a lower pay scale for them for many years. New pilots, for example, would earn $21,600 a year, or almost $900 below the current starting salary of $22,452. With smaller raises, the pay of the newest pilots could lag as much as 40 behind that of current pilots with similar rank and experience. After 12 years of service, according to United, a co-pilot hired under the proposed contract would earn $52,000 a year, but another co-pilot working under the current contract and possibly sharing the same cockpit, would make $76,400 a year. Many other airlines have adopted a dual, two-tier wage system in recent years, including American, Piedmont, Western and Republic Airlines. For more on the pilots' position, we talk now with Captain Hank Duffy, president of the Airline Pilots Association. It represents the striking pilots as well as 29,000 pilots employed by 48 other commercial airlines.

Mr. Duffy, first of all, why is it that this two-tier issue was important enough to justify a strike?

Capt. HANK DUFFY: Charlayne, the history of the two-tier system has created classes of employees on every airline, the haves and the have-nots. And everywhere it's been instituted it's created hostility between the two employee groups. We don't want that kind of resentment coming into our cockpits.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that the main thing, hostility?

Capt. DUFFY: Absolutely. You know, there is a feeling of separateness. We're talking about people doing equal work but getting very unequal pay in this United proposal in excess of 50 .

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that hostility in the cockpit likely to produce the kind of safety concerns that we heard the people expressing in the tape piece?

Capt. DUFFY: Well, the cockpit must be operated with absolutely tight discipline. We don't want any outside factors working on any of those two or three individuals that are up there.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right. But other employees of United -- machinists, flight attendants -- have accepted two-tier pay scales in their contract. I mean, why should this be different?

Capt. DUFFY: Well, the difference in this company proposal is that it merges very late in the pilot's career -- ve years after he makes captain on United, that's 24 years into his career. We have offered the company to respond to their request for a competitive edge, as they put it. We've offered to give them the same thing that they accepted from the machinists and from the flight attendants, which is a merge after five years. As a matter of fact, we upped that a little bit and we said a merge after eight years.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right. Now, you say that you're concerned about the hostility in the cockpit. But American Airlines, Republic, all those ones I mentioned have two-tier systems. Why do you think it would be different if United accepted a two-tier system?

Capt. DUFFY: Well, actually, other than American, those other airlines merge in the fifth year as well. So you know, they're early-merging two-tiered systems. And American has frankly had enough trouble with its two-tiered pay scale. They've had trouble; they've had to lower their pilot requirements in order to get qualified pilots to come in, and they've had a hard time keeping their pilots after they've come with the airline because they've gone to the airlines that pay the better pay.

HUNTER-GAULT: You're not saying that American is unsafe?

Capt. DUFFY: Oh, no, certainly not. What we're saying is, they're having to lower their pilot requirements in order to get people to come to work for them, and the pilots, once they're trained, go to another airline because the airline pays them more money. Now, we don't think that the quality airlines are meant to be training academies for some other airline. We think they should want to keep their experienced pilots.

HUNTER-GAULT: And you're not worried about this competitive edge that American has? If you force United into [sic] a dual system, you don't agree that they will lose their competitive edge?

Capt. DUFFY: Well, first of all, you know, the seat-mile cost is the standard way of measuring the expenses for an airline. United's seat-mile cost is seven cents now compared to American's eight cents. So you know, it's really hard to work up a lot of sympathy for an airline who's coming off a record year of profits, $550 million last year.

HUNTER-GAULT: It was one quarter of losses, though, wasn't it?

Capt. DUFFY: Sure, which is a normally bad quarter for them. But you know, they've had a good year last year; they've forecast another good year this year. But we have tried to respond to that competitive request. We put an eight-year merging scale out there, and they turned that down and said they want something that merges five years after a man makes captain.

HUNTER-GAULT: And that's just not acceptable?

Capt. DUFFY: Well, you know, it's important that you understand, we have to retire at age 60, and that makes our careers something like 30 years long. If you don't reach full parity until 25 into your career, that doesn't give you many full earning years.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, we'll come back. Jim?

LEHRER: The company's position now from Monte Lazarus, a senior vice president of United Airlines. He is with us from public station WTTW in Chicago.

Why is the two-tier system so important to United, sir?

MONTE LAZARUS: It's absolutely essential for United to become competitive in the marketplace. We are in a deregulated environment. We are competing primarily against American, but also against Frontier, Continental, People Express, a number of other carriers, almost all of whom have lower wage structures than we do. We are going to either be competitive or we will perish in the marketplace. It's as simple as that.

LEHRER: Is it that serious?

Mr. LAZARUS: It's that serious. When American Airlines is able to hire pilots at 50 of the going rate of our pilots, that puts us in a noncompetitive position. We're not talking about today; we're talking about the marketplace of tomorrow and the day after and the day after that. And it's absolutely critical to get those wage costs down. Now, Captain Duffy has referred to the situation in the cockpit and to the pilots' earnings. The average pilot on United Airlines earns $91,200 a year plus $34,600 a year in fringe benefits. That's a heck of a salary. We have made no cutbacks in our proposal on existing pilots. We have offered them a 6 increase effective immediately upon signing the contract and 2 next year. All we are talking about are the new hires.

LEHRER: What about his point about two classes in the cockpit and the creation of hostility?

Mr. LAZARUS: I think he destroyed his own argument. If there is so much concern about hostility in the cockpit, number one, why is it that the union has come back and said they will accept eight years? If they're willing to accept the principle, then hostility in the cockpit is not the issue. Furthermore, all the people who would be newly hired are on notice of what their new salary wages will be, and therefore there's not going to be any hostility; they're on notice. Furthermore, there are carriers throughout the system who now have two-tier, and two-tier is working.

LEHRER: Is this --

Mr. LAZARUS: Two-tier, by the way, is not just common to the airline industry. There are 800,000 workers throughout the United States in a number of industries who are operating under two-tier systems.

LEHRER: You say this is critical to United Airlines. Is it so critical that the company is willing to replace all 5,000 striking pilots if it becomes necessary?

Mr. LAZARUS: United will do whatever is necessary, including replacing all striking pilots. We regret the inconvenience to the public. That's a terrible thing. We appreciate, by the way, the assistance of travel agents, who have gone out of their way to help passengers, and certain carriers -- Eastern, Western, Frontier and Pan American -- have entered into excellent agreements to help the traveling public.

LEHRER: You are going to try to continue to operate during this strike, correct?

Mr. LAZARUS: We are operating. We are operating today. We've had crossovers. We've had support from our other unions.

LEHRER: Crossovers meaning members of the ALPA who have crossed the picket line to fly?

Mr. LAZARUS: Yes, indeed. And we think that they're going to cross in increasing numbers. They did increase during the day. There will be increased flying tomorrow, and we will continually build the airline. We flew 165 flights as of three o'clock this afternoon to 50 cities, and we're going to grow.

LEHRER: What about the statement we had during the news summary from one of the striking pilots in Chicago that this creates a safety problem?

Mr. LAZARUS: We operate under the highest conditions of safety that we are aware of. All our programs, all our operations are under the auspices of the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration. They have approved everything that we are doing. We would rather not dispatch a trip than dispatch a flight that we have any concern about. Safety is our number one priority; it's our number one corporate objective.

LEHRER: All right, thank you. Charlayne?

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Duffy, first, just to that point, should people flying be concerned now with the safety of United, given all that's happening?

Capt. DUFFY: Our real concerns are when they start to hire pilots off the street. There are ads out there in the paper right now that say that they'll take a pilot if he has 250 hours of total time. I want to tell you that the current United pilot that just went out on strike, the average United pilot has 19 years of experience. Now, that's the airline that the traveling public is used to traveling on. When they start picking up people off the street with low time, with low total flying time, then we're going to ask the FAA to take a close look at them. The airline has already gone in for some waivers on training, which we don't think is right in a situation where you're bringing new people into an airline. And so we think it's a situation that needs very close scrutiny.

HUNTER-GAULT: But the flying now is safe?

Capt. DUFFY: They're using management pilots now. And there's always a problem when you've got people that haven't been flying or flying in different seats. But those are United-trained pilots. Our concerns are more with the new hires that'll be coming on.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that a legitimate concern, Mr. Lazarus?

Mr. LAZARUS: Not at all. We will operate under only the safest conditions. We have 6,000 applicants on file. Those are people with years of experience. They're tremendously skilled, proficient pilots. We're not picking people off the street; we are taking people who are today flying for other airlines.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that a reassuring --

Capt. DUFFY: Mr. Lazarus needs to read his own ad. It says 250 hours minimum time required.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that right, Mr. Lazarus?

Mr. LAZARUS: Captain Duffy ought to check the list of people we have. We have qualified applicants from other airlines.

HUNTER-GAULT: But are you saying that 250 hours of flying time is enough to be qualified as a safe pilot?

Mr. LAZARUS: I'm saying that we have 6,000 applicants. They are all highly skilled. On a historical basis, 20 of our applicants pass the screening. We have the most rigorous screening you can imagine. We do not operate except under the highest safety conditions.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right. We can't resolve this one, but let me just go back to his basic point, that the pilots have to accept this two-tier pay plan, otherwise the airlines are going to perish and the pilots aren't even going to have anything to fly.

Capt. DUFFY: You see, we don't accept that at all. The fact that they made $550 million last year without a two-tier pay scale absolutely refutes that.

HUNTER-GAULT: Does that, Mr. Lazarus?

Mr. LAZARUS: Not at all. American Airlines made $60 million net the first quarter of this year. We lost $3 million. We are in a tough competitive fight. We knew it would be a tough competitive fight when we came into deregulation. Unless we become competitive, we are not going to be able to survive in the marketplace. And that's true of any business; it's not just the airline industry.

Capt. DUFFY: Mr. Lazarus knows that the CEO of American Airlines has already announced that his two-tiered pay scale is not working, that he's going to have to make adjustments in the first five years. And as a matter of fact, he says he's waiting to see what happens over on United. What we've got is two big airlines pointing their finger at each other.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that right, Mr. Lazarus?

Mr. LAZARUS: Not at all. Mr. Crandall has not abandoned the two-tier system in any respect.

HUNTER-GAULT: You don't accept that what he has to say -- what he just said about American's position about the two-tier, that they're waiting to see what happens, that it's not working?

Mr. LAZARUS: We're always examining the situations in other airlines. As a matter of fact, what this situation is about today is not really United's pilots as much as the national ALPA, which is headed by Captain Duffy. They have singled us out as a target in order to destroy the two-tier system.

HUNTER-GAULT: Is that right?

Mr. LAZARUS: The two-tier system is here, it exists; it exists in the airline industry, it exists in other industries across the economic spectrum. It is a very effective way to reduce the economic burdens of high-wage payrolls.

Capt. DUFFY: Charlayne, if we'd taken a rigid stand against the two-tier, we wouldn't have offered eight years of reduced pay for the new hires. It is our attempt to be responsive to the competitive pressures that are out there. What we've got is a little greed creeping in, and they thought they could get it deeper and deeper into the pilots' career. That's what we're simply not going to stand for.

HUNTER-GAULT: A little greed creeping in, Mr. Lazarus?

Mr. LAZARUS: Little greed creeping in? I would remind you that the average 747 captain today makes $154,900 a year, plus that $34,600 I was talking about in fringe, for working a maximum of 20 hours a week.

Capt. DUFFY: And the average 747 captain has probably worked for United Airlines for excess of 30 years and probably has something like 25,000 or 30,000 flying hours, and that's what the traveling public wants in that cockpit.

HUNTER-GAULT: Let me ask you this. How long do you think it is going to be before this strike gets settled?

Capt. DUFFY: Well, we've sent all the communications that we can to the company that we want a settlement. The purpose of any strike is really to get a settlement. Both sides have dug in pretty hard on this issue, and I'm always optimistic that when the two sides get together, there ought to be other ways to do it. But we weren't able to do it last night.

HUNTER-GAULT: Does it look like a long one to you?

Capt. DUFFY: It could be. If they start hiring permanent replacements, we've got a whole new issue introduced into this strike.

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Lazarus, does it look like a long one to you?

Mr. LAZARUS: It's hard to tell. It could be. We're prepared to stay as long as we have to. We are flying and we are growing, and we are going to continue to grow, and grow properly.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right. Well, it looks like we may have to come back to this one. Mr. Lazarus in Chicago, thank you for being with us, and Mr. Duffy, thank you. Jim?

Capt. DUFFY: Thank you, Charlayne.

Mr. LAZARUS: Thank you.

LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour, a newsmaker interview with El Salvador President Jose Napoleon Duarte, a focus report on the troubles of the USFL, United States Football League, and a conversation with the young man of the American National Theatre, Peter Sellars. Duarte's View

LEHRER: We move now to a newsmaker interview with Jose Napoleon Duarte, the president of El Salvador. President Duarte is in the United States on a visit that is both business and pleasure. Yesterday he met with President Reagan, Sunday he receives an honorary degree from Notre Dame University, his alma mater. His meeting with Mr. Reagan was marked by tough statements from both men about Nicaragua and its Sandinista government.

Mr. President, welcome.

JOSE NAPOLEON DUARTE: Thank you very much.

LEHRER: You said this morning that your forces may have -- it looked like your forces had captured an arms boat from Nicaragua this morning. Is that true?

Pres. DUARTE: No, I didn't say that. I said that there was -- that our armed forces captured a boat in the sea who was making signals in a code conversation with an area in which there were guerrilla connections. And the army controlled the communications and they went out and captured this boat.

LEHRER: What was on the boat, do you know yet?

Pres. DUARTE: Up to this moment, I think some cotton is in the boat.

LEHRER: Some what?

Pres. DUARTE: Cotton.

LEHRER: Cotton. I see.

Pres. DUARTE: But they haven't searched it yet, so as soon as they get any information they'll tell me.

LEHRER: But is it possible that there are arms? Is that your fear, that there are arms from Nicaragua?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, we don't know. But the thing is that they were making this connection, this communication, in codes. And they were directly connected with the guerrilla area.

LEHRER: Are there many arms coming from Nicaragua to the guerrillas in your country now?

Pres. DUARTE: Yes, there are still coming in a lot of arms.

LEHRER: Where do they come from? How do they get into your country?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, they use normally boats into the sea and then to the coast. Sometimes they do it by land through Honduras, and other times by air, even by helicopters. They send the helicopters, drop the ammunitions and then they go back. So the trip around is only 10 minutes' trip; it's easy for them to do it.

LEHRER: Is there a lot of this going on, or is it as much now as it was?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, we have certain barriers to control this. For example, there are the patrols in the Gulf, and there are sometimes ships in the ocean to control this, and there are radars to try to control the airplanes. But of course, they always can pass -- smuggle some of the arms in.

LEHRER: Your country has been one of the few that has supported the United States, trade embargo with Nicaragua. Why is that, sir?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, you have to understand that we are the ones who are more damaged by the Nicaraguans. Around the area, if you analyze it, you will see the position of Costa Rica, Honduras and El Salvador in that area. We are the ones who receive the actions, the extensions of the Communist actions in the area. And especially we in El Salvador, who receive all the damage of the guerrilla-supported Sandinista government.

LEHRER: Well, as you say, you're down there. Do you feel that this embargo can be effective against the Sandinista government?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, I hope it will. I don't know whether it will be or not, but if it moves Nicaragua into a democratic solution, it would be wonderful.

LEHRER: What do you say to those -- there are a lot of critics in this country, in fact, and elsewhere who have said, "Oh, well, that isn't going to happen. It's going to push Nicaragua even further into the Soviet-Cuban camp"?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, it might, it might also. You have to remember that the embargo, or any action in this area, is effective only if it has some kind of a link to the United States. But Nicaragua's linking to Cuba, it's linking to Russia, and it's been proved by the trip that Mr. -- by the president of Nicaragua.

LEHRER: Ortega. Daniel Ortega.

Pres. DUARTE: Yes, that he made to Russia. That is proved that they want to move more and more to the Communist area.

LEHRER: What do you think they really want to do, though? I mean, in addition to being Communist, what do you think their aims are in your region?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, there are documents to prove that are -- they have a very definite attitude toward the revolutions in other countries. They want to export revolutions. And they're exporting the revolution to El Salvador. And we have captured this lady, Neidi Adiyez, and -- who is a Communist leader of the guerrillas, and she was carrying a whole big package of documents. And on these documents, she -- they were expressing on those documents their policies concerning their exporting the revolution and the link between the FSLN and --

LEHRER: That's your --

Pres. DUARTE: The FMLN is the Salvadoran guerrillas. And the FSLN is the Nicaraguan, Sandinista group, yes.

LEHRER: Right. Okay. Do you see the government of Nicaragua as your enemy, as an enemy of El Salvador?

Pres. DUARTE: No. As you see, we have never had any actions against them. We haven't demanded them on anything. What I said in my speech taking office, I said that we have respected Nicaragua, we have never used our land to attack Nicaragua, and therefore what we demand is the same thing, that they don't attack us. Just a few days ago, some of the officers of the Nicaraguan government went to our country to talk about the relation. And I told them, "Before we talk, give me proofs that you are sincerely willing to let El Salvador make its own destiny. You are having inside Nicaragua a sanctuary for the Salvadoran guerrilla." The headquarters of the guerrillas are there. The ammunitions are there, and all the supplies are there. The Radio Venceremos is there. And just imagine that every time that Pastora goes to Costa Rica, the Nicaraguan government makes a demand for the Costa Rican government to throw Pastora out. But they keep the sanctuary of the headquarters for the FMLN. So I say to them, "Why don't you give proofs, why don't you take these people out of Nicaragua? Let them go someplace else, and prove that you don't really want to create problems to El Salvador."

LEHRER: And yet you support the U.S. effort to give funds to the contras, who are trying to do exactly the same thing to the Sandinistas.

Pres. DUARTE: No, that's one thing that I have never supported, and I want to make a distinction.

LEHRER: All right.

Pres. DUARTE: I have said this -- last year in Congress I said it too. And my position on this, I cannot go on record by supporting guerrillas in another country, because if I do that then I'll be accepting the support of Nicaragua supporting the guerrillas in El Salvador. So I just cannot go on record on that. Now, one thing I said was that in creating a barrier between Nicaragua and El Salvador, if we cannot stop this flow of arms, this barrier is good for us, the Salvadorans. And this barrier obviously is ships in the Gulf, radars in the land, and the soldiers, the contras, then serve as a barrier. So I believe that the barrier is good, and I accept the result because it has diminished the transportation of arms. But I cannot go on record on the support of guerrillas, because that would be against my own principles.

LEHRER: Where do the talks that you began with the guerrillas in your country and you -- where do they stand right now, what's happened to them?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, as you remember, I called for the La Palma talks, and I was very enthusiastic about them. We went there and they talking peace and I was talking peace, so I felt that things were going good. So I arranged for the second round, but on the second round we got out of there frustrated. The people of the country was frustrated. The newspaper people who went around the area were frustrated. Because the guerrillas decided to talk war instead of talking peace. So I said to them, "I cannot continue on this scheme because I don't want to keep on frustrating my people." If I go on to the next round without taking protection of this, what would happen would be that we will create an antagonistic condition against the dialogue; the people will be frustrated, and that would be the end of the dialogue. I don't want that. I want to make sure that the dialogue will continue until we get to peace. And in order to do that, I am proposing a process, a process of humanizing the conflict until we get to peace, one by one. And this can be done by sitting down in conversation, informal conversation, so that we can get together and see what we can do. Not for the guerrillas, not for the government, but for the people.

LEHRER: And you think it's going to work?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, I'm doing my best, and I hope it will.

LEHRER: When will these informal meetings begin, do you believe?

Pres. DUARTE: Well, I've been trying to get them to understand my points of view for the last month. And I was ready to have them right now, but they're not. They want a formal dialogue meeting with a special date, and that's a different concept.

LEHRER: Well, Mr. President, it's good to see you again, and congratulations on your honorary degree Sunday at Notre Dame, your old school.

Pres. DUARTE: Thank you very much, sir.

LEHRER: Thank you. USFL: Fighting for Life

HUNTER-GAULT: Yesterday the United States Football League filed a $7 million breach-of-contract suit against ABC. The league charged that the network reneged on its agreement to pay in full for the rights to televise the games this season. ABC had no comment on the suit, but the network reportedly was trying to renegotiate a lower fee because the league failed to keep its promise to maintain teams in seven of the top 10 television markets. This was just the latest problem in what has been a troubled season for the USFL. Special correspondent Mike Lupica has this report.

MIKE LUPICA: It seemed perfect three years ago. A spring marriage born of love and money, something that really belonged on one of those prime-time soaps like Dynasty or Dallas. Americans love football. Rich Americans love to own football teams. And the union of this love and all that money was called the United States Football League.

[voice-over] Now in its third season, the USFL is beset by problems. Declining television ratings and ABC's withholding of payments are just two of them. Several teams, like the L.A. Express, are on the brink of financial collapse, while the league as a whole has lost almost $100 million. Since last season the USFL has shrunk from 18 to 14 teams, losing franchises in several key cities. In a dramatic effort to save itself, the USFL is giving up on its founding notion that what this country really needed was spring football.

HARRY USHER, USFL Commissioner: I'd like to run through what happened at the owners' meeting today.

LUPICA [voice-over]: At the end of April, Commissioner Harry Usher announced to the press the final decision of the USFL owners.

Mr. USHER: All teams, with the exception of two, reaffirmed the decision for the USFL to go to the fall in 1986.

LUPICA [voice-over]: As a consequence of this vote, the league will not be playing next spring, waiting until fall 1986 for its sports season.

DONALD TRUMP, owner, New Jersey Generals: I believe in going to the fall because the fall is first class, the fall is when you're supposed to play football.

LUPICA [voice-over]: The point man all along for a move to fall play has been Donald Trump, owner of the New Jersey Generals and one of the country's leading real estate developers.

Mr. TRUMP: In the spring you have a wall. You have a wall of people that really won't watch football in the spring, and I really believe that, because I would have been one of them.

LUPICA [voice-over]: Besides favoring fall football, Trump has turned one other USFL principle on its head: the concept that players' salaries should be kept low. He brought what's being called Trumpball to the USFL, bankrolling box office stars like quarterback Doug Flutie and running back Herschel Walker. Both are Heisman Trophy winners, and both make more than a million dollars a year.

Mr. TRUMP: Well, my theory -- and it's obviously been a proven theory over thousands of years -- you need stars. Nothing better than signing low-priced players and having a lot of fun. But nobody's going to come and watch them. That's all there is to it.

LUPICA [voice-over]: Other owners have taken their cue from Trump, bankrolling high-priced players like quarterback Steve Young and Jim Kelly and running back Mike Rozier. But with all these young stars, the owners soon realized they would have to increase their television revenues to pay for them. Since more people watch television in the fall, it made sense to most of the owners to switch from a spring to a fall schedule. But one owner, John Bassett of the Tampa Bay Bandits, is vehemently opposed to fall play and Trump's superstar, megabuck payroll philosophy.

JOHN BASSETT, owner, Tampa Bay Bandits: I don't think Donald Trump knows anything about football. He knows about selling tickets and marketing and going after big names, but he knows less about football than almost anybody in our league.

LUPICA [voice-over]: The rift between Bassett and Trump, friends once, has become a painful symbol of the USFL's problems.

Mr. TRUMP: I don't want to listen to somebody whose opinions -- I mean, I think I've done slightly better than John Bassett over the course of the last 10 years in everything else, okay? So I'm not going to sit back and listen to somebody else, and you know, that's just the way it is.

Mr. BASSETT: That's just nonsense, but that's the way Donald is, that's the way he thinks. He's a very simplistic fellow, and if he proves to be wrong on the fall issue, I think that it's going to really severely hurt his psyche. If he's right, well, then he's right. I tend to think that he's going to be wrong.

LUPICA [voice-over]: As a consequence, Bassett has decided to leave the USFL after this season. He is putting together yet another league which will play next spring.

[on camera] While Bassett may be a lone voice in the USFL wilderness, he is not entirely alone, not by a long shot. ABC has shown their total lack of enthusiasm for the spring-fall switch by refusing to carry the league's games next season. After exhaustive negotiations with the other networks, the USFL came up empty.

[voice-over] Even all-sports cable network ESPN, which will be carrying the USFL's 1986 season, has doubts. Bill Grimes is ESPN's president.

WILLIAM GRIMES, president, ESPN: We believe, because there is so much football in the fall, with college football, college football games on CBS, ABC, ESPN and Turner Broadcasting, and professional football on all three networks during the fall, we feel that the difficulty in attracting advertisers to the United States Football League will be much greater next fall than it would have been next spring.

LUPICA [voice-over]: But the USFL is blaming the NFL, not its own low ratings, for the fact that neither the networks nor advertisers are embracing the switch to the fall. As a result the USFL is bringing a $1.3 billion antitrust suit against the National Football League.

Mr. TRUMP: We believe that the NFL is a total monopoly. We believe that they've monopolized the markets and the networks. We don't believe that they will be allowed to stay on all three networks.

Mr. USHER: The fact that the NFL has used its monopolistic position, which was granted to them by Congress through the exemptions to the antitrust law, and they've moved those antitrust laws' exemptions beyond anything comprehended by Congress, and in effect, tied up all the means of commerce with contracts for the past 15 years with ABC, CBS and NBC. That we want stopped.

LUPICA [voice-over]: The NFL calls the suit baseless. But one longtime television sports observer thinks the league has a good case.

HOWARD COSELL, ABC Sports: Although you don't read it that way in the papers, I know that the National Football League takes that suit very, very seriously, despite every effort to publicly pooh-pooh it. And if one were party to certain NFL owners' meetings, one would know how much they're afraid of that lawsuit.

LUPICA [voice-over]: But John Bassett thinks the league is placing too much faith in the lawsuit.

Mr. BASSETT: I think that they're basing an inordinate amount of their hope on winning a lawsuit against the National Football League. I'm a Canadian, not an American, and we don't sue as much in Canada as you do in the States, so I nd that kind of a thin premise to operate a business on.

LUPICA [voice-over]: The debate over the USFL's move will probably not end until the league begins its next season in fall 1986. Only then will we find out who's right, Bassett or Trump, and just how much pro football the fall can absorb, and how many falls, if any, there will be for the United States Football League. Peter Sellars: Theatrical Voice

LEHRER: Finally tonight, a few minutes with and about Peter Sellars, a young man many have compared to Mozart, in size, buoyancy and genius. He is the new head of the new American National Theatre at the Kennedy Center in Washington, which has its second major premiere tomorrow night. Sellars was only 27 when hired by the legendary Roger Stevens to do the Kennedy Center job.

PETER SELLARS, American National Theatre: It's Roger Stevens at the age of 75 hiring me at the age of 27, and saying, "Here are the car keys," you know, "and take it around the block." And the notion that a Broadway producer, Roger Stevens, hires kid Sellars, you know, known for doing productions that are irritating, divisive and outrageous, and says, "Here's our nation's cultural center, can you do something?" -- that's impressive. I'm impressed. And it bespeaks a kind of long-range vision. I mean, what Roger liked about me was that the reviews were always split. He was very happy that every production I do, half the people say it's brilliant, the other half say, you know, "This must be squelched."

LEHRER [voice-over]: Doing things his own way at his own speed is what Peter Sellars is known for. He moves and thinks at full tilt, showing little interest in the slower things of life like eating or sleeping. By his own count, Sellars has been involved in over 100 productions, all by the time he was 27. His interest in theater began with puppets in his native Pittsburgh, and he still likes puppets.

Mr. SELLARS: And then when I was 10 years old, for no rhyme or reason other than the fact that, you know, I was in the sixth grade to do. So I walked over to this theater and said I'd like to apprentice, not knowing the meaning of the word, and they sort of looked at me and, you know, for the first year I packed popcorn and, wiped up the lemon blend off the floor at the end of the performance, and for my second year I got to pull the curtain. I learned everything I know about curtains -- slow curtains, fast curtains, the whole scene can be made by the curtain. I found that out in great depth that year. And then after a while I got to work my first puppet. And all the time I made my own little puppet troupe of my next-door neighbor, my sister, and I built like a -- I built a new stage every month or so.

[with designer] This color just screams murder against this. This color is just so upsetting. This is almost the color we were talking about for those -- for the marble, right?

LEHRER [voice-over]: Sellars' interests shifted to real-people theater in high school. He lived in Paris for a year before going to Harvard. There his reputation for genius and controversy was established. He formed his own theater company, his most famous production while in school being Antony and Cleopatra, which he staged in a swimming pool. Following school he staged plays and operas for regional theaters around the country that were usually greeted with extreme praise or extreme criticism. Then he was hired and fired from the Broadway production of My One and Only. He received a MacArthur Foundation grant for his creativity, and he was named artistic director of the Boston Shakespeare Company. And now, at age 27, he is the director of the new American National Theatre, at a time when he feels the American theater is in serious trouble.

Mr. SELLARS: A lot of people are fond of saying there already is an American national theater; it consists of the regional theaters across this country. Yes, but no. It also consists of Broadway, it also consists of off-Broadway, and it also, weirdly enough, consists of certain, bizarre video aberrations, and it also consists of certain, you know, avant-gardefimusic events. But right now American theater is in smithereens. I enjoy that incredible disruption and disparity. At the same time I think there is a big picture, and I think right now, after, shall we say, a certain aspect of the '60s which was, for everything to shatter us as far as possible, I think now our job in the '80s is to attempt some level of consolidation and reconciliation. And I think what is of use now is partnership not separatism, and a sharing of ideas, a sharing of productions, and a sharing of a kind of spirit that may coalesce into some sense of a movement and unity within, right now, what is I think the most depressed art form in the country.

LEHRER: Why is it so depressed?

Mr. SELLARS: What are the new breakthroughs? What's the exciting new -- what are the exciting new developments? Where are they? You know, I mean, what kind of discussion can one have about them? I mean, they're in Europe. I mean, we're shamed by the fact that, you know, every major country that we deal with in terms of the, shall we say, the big established, you know, nations that we like to think of, our friends -- we won't deal with the Third World, of course -- they have a national theater that bespeaks an important integrity of national tradition and national identity, and a sense that theater is one of the most important facets of national identity. I mean, in Japan, you know, the Kabuki and the Noh dramas are preserved meticulously, because the Japanese know this tells us something about being Japanese. You know, in France the Comedie Francaise is inviolable, because it tells us something about being French. In Russia the Moscow Art Theater, you know, is this pinnacle of the art, and it collects the great Russian repertoire, supposedly with the great Russian actors. I mean, each country has a theater which it cherishes and which connects very vitally to the important and pressing national issues of, you know, where we came from and where we're heading.

LEHRER: What is your assessment of the quality of the plays that are being written now in America?

Mr. SELLARS: It's work done by, you know, professionals who are working hard at it. They don't, specifically, most of them, interest me that much because my attitude is, I really don't need to go to the theater to have a scene in a kitchen with a couple of people putting out cigarettes and ashtrays and screaming at each other nasty words. I mean, I don't need to go out for that. I have a kitchen at home. I don't smoke, it's true. But no, I mean, one goes to the theater to see something a little more. One goes to the theater to see people leap off cliffs. One goes to the theater to see people lead holy wars. One goes to the theater to see the stuff that presumably we're not going to see if we stay at home. And that includes television, I might add. And it has to be an event that is about being alive at this moment, and at the same time that fuses that moment, that instant, that second of being alive, that you're there, you're sitting in this seat, you know, with this velvet, you know, all over you, and that moment of real time is fused to this moment of fantasy time, this moment of the future, this moment of the past, this moment where suddenly you realize we're communing with people who have been on the earth before us, who have thought the same thoughts, who have struggled the same struggles, and for a moment we realize we're not alone and that the present moment is linked to a past moment, and that that linkage produces some kind of fusion which may generate a future moment, and you know -- if we think about it right and if we act on it correctly. And it's for that possibility that we keep trying in this hopeless profession. I mean, it's at that moment that we'll make contact, and suddenly we say, "We're not alone here."

LEHRER: The first production of Sellars' new Kennedy Center reign was of Shakespeare's Henry IV in March. It was bombed by critics and audiences, and closed after two weeks. Sellars chose it and entrepreneured it, but he did not direct it. He is the director of The Count of Monte Cristo, which premiers tomorrow night as the American National Theatre's second production.

Good night, Charlayne.

HUNTER-GAULT: Good night, Jim. That's our NewsHour for tonight. I'm Charlayne Hunter-Gault. Have a good weekend. Good night.