The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MUDD: And I'm Roger Mudd in New York. After the News Summary, we get the story of the high water at Kansas City. Next, we hear from Midwest governors in Washington lobbying for flood aid, and finally the world view from Beijing. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MUDD: The House tonight overwhelmingly approved the emergency flood relief bill. The bill, which now goes on to the Senate, would provide about $3 billion for victims of the Midwestern flooding. Governors from six of those flooded states met with President Clinton today in Washington seeking additional assistance. The President said he would ask the Congress to increase the aid package to about $4 billion. Estimates of damage in the area have run as high as $12 billion. Meanwhile, residents of Kansas City, Missouri, worked feverishly today to hold back the swelling Kansas and Missouri Rivers which meet in their city. At mid-day, the Kansas River crested at nearly 55 feet and the Missouri at nearly 49 feet. But the city is protected by a 57 foot high wall. The Missouri River broke through a 100-foot levee in Waldron, Missouri, today, threatening that town's water supply. Most of Waldron's residents were evacuated before the levee broke. We'll have more on the floods after the News Summary. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Thousands of people have been killed by more than a month of floods in southern Asia. The waters are beginning to recede, but millions in Bangladesh, India, and Nepal are homeless and short of food and water. Terry Lloyd of Independent Television News reports from Bangladesh.

TERRY LLOYD: Over half of Bangladesh is now underwater following the heaviest monsoon rainfall for five years. Almost 6 million people are homeless. At Camila in the east, where the River Gumty has smashed its way through a defensive mud wall,these families have become known as the "bank people." They took us by boat to see the remains of their village which was swallowed up nine days ago. Thankfully, they were warned the water was coming and they climbed to the top of the tress with their children until the army arrived to take them to safety. The waves washed right over the tops of their simple homes, dragging most of their possessions away, down the valley. They will slowly rebuild them, but they won't last long, for these people are plagued by catastrophic flooding and cyclones. The good news for the people of Camila, and there's precious little of it, is there's been no rainfall for 24 hours, just the July heat. The short-term weather forecast is for more rain, and the monsoon season has another full month to go. They now join the queues for a daily ration of lentils and rice handed out by the Muslim Red Crescent charity organization. First, they must have their fingerprints taken to make sure no one has more than their share. Some have tried to escape to safer ground. We counted 75 people on board this boat which was being towed by a young boy in the water. They want to get out before diarrhea, cholera, and other water-born diseases add to the death toll.

MR. LEHRER: Twenty-two deaths were reported in Bangladesh today from water-born diseases. Officials have said several thousand could die from disease in the three flood-damaged Asian countries.

MR. MUDD: In Washington, Senate Democrats today yielded to the pressure of a Republican filibuster and agreed to scale back President Clinton's national service program. The plan will be cut back from five to three years and would tax the benefits to the wealthier students. The program would give college students up to $10,000 in tuition help in return for community service. A vote to break the filibuster is tentatively scheduled for tomorrow, but even with today's compromise, the count is expected to be close. President Clinton today asked the Congress for more money and tougher laws to control illegal immigration. He wants increased penalties for alien smuggling and a speed-up in the deportation of undocumented aliens who do not have what were called credible claims of asylum. Those denied asylum could appeal to a senior Justice Department official for an immediate yes or no. The President also requested almost $173 million to hire 600 new border patrol agents and upgrade their technology. Mr. Clinton announced the measures at the White House this morning.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: The simple fact is that we must not and we will not surrender our borders to those who wish to exploit our history of compassion and justice. We cannot tolerate those who traffic in human cargo, nor can we allow our people to be endangered by those who would enter our country to terrorize Americans. But the solution to the problem of illegal immigration is not simply to close our borders. The solution is to welcome legal immigrants and legal, legitimate refugees and to turn away those who do not obey the laws. We must say no to illegal immigration, so we can continue to say yes to legal immigration.

MR. MUDD: The American Civil Liberties Union and the Lamda Defense Fund today filed a legal challenge to President Clinton's recently announced policy on homosexuals in the military. The suit, brought in the name of seven gay and lesbian members of the military, claims the so-called "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy violates the free speech clause of the First Amendment and the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment. The suit filed in the federal district court in Washington is the first court challenge to the Clinton policy. The White House acknowledged today that Mr. Clinton called presidential lawyer Vincent Foster the night before he committed suicide. Press Secretary Dee Dee Meyers said the President knew, along with a number of people in the White House, that Mr. Foster was having a rough time. Meyers said she was not suggesting there was any evidence that Foster was suicidal. Yesterday, the Justice Department said its investigation of Foster's death on Tuesday was actually a low level inquiry by the U.S. Park Police.

MR. LEHRER: IBM announced 35,000 more layoffs and an $8 billion loss today. Most of the second quarter loss was in the costs of the layoffs, the majority of which will be overseas. The company began a major downsizing last year after a series of heavy losses. Nearly 50,000 IBM employees have left or agreed to leave the company so far this year. The U.S. International Trade Commission ruled against 16 countries today for engaging in unfair trade in steel. It made permanent a range of punitive tariffs imposed earlier on the countries for selling steel in the United States at artificially low prices. A national commission to study the savings & loan scandal has recommended a major overhaul of the nation's financial system. The commission, chartered by Congress, said federal deposit insurance allowed the S&L scandal to spin out of control. It proposed eliminating all insurance, except for money market type accounts invested in safe, short-term investments.

MR. MUDD: President Clinton has summoned Sec. of State Christopher home from his Asian trip so they can consult in Washington about the fighting in south Lebanon. Israel launched air and artillery strikes on Muslim guerrillas in the region three days ago to retaliate for the killing of seven Israeli soldiers. White House Press Sec. Meyers said today the Hezbollah guerrillas and their main backers, the Iranian government, had started to exchange the fire in order to derail the Mideast peace negotiations. At least 56 people have been killed and nearly 300 wounded by the Israeli shellfire or by the guerrillas' rockets. United Nations officials said more than 120,000 villagers in south Lebanon have fled their homes. Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said the offensive would not be stopped until the guerrillas stopped firing rockets at northern Israel.

MR. LEHRER: The Bosnian peace talks resumed in Geneva today, but fighting also continued in Sarajevo. Ian Williams of Independent Television News reports from the Bosnian capital.

IAN WILLIAMS, ITN: A short while ago shells crashed into communities just above a new French U.N. base. The attack sent the troops running for cover. They had already been on high alert after Sunday's assault on them which provoked warnings from the U.N. commander here that he will retaliate if attacked again. The bombardment close to the French followed a day of intermittent shelling on the outskirts of the city. This did not prevent the Bosnian president attending the peace talks in Geneva, though before he left Sarajevo, his vice president insisted there will be no agreement to partition the country.

EJAP GANIC, Vice President, Bosnia: Why should we sign our death penalty? You see, they want to create three ethnic states and then, you know, that will be just, that will create condition for continuation of these fights. And now not only three ethnic states but three ethnic states after the ethnic cleansing is finished.

MR. WILLIAMS: For the first time in several days thecity center was relatively quiet this morning. People ventured onto streets that have been virtually deserted, free for a while from fear of attack. Some paid their respects at a memorial to another war. Fifty-two years ago today the uprising against the Germans began in Bosnia. In spite of the hardship of 16 months under siege, most of those we spoke to wanted their president to take a tough line in Geneva. There is also strong opposition from the military and from within the Bosnian government to any deal that would partition the country. Certainly the cease-fire that was supposed to accompany the Geneva peace talks has totally failed.

MR. LEHRER: The Bosnian Muslim president reported some progress at the Geneva talks. International Mediator Lord Owen said it could be some time before a settlement might be reached.

MR. MUDD: That's it for the News Summary. Just ahead on the NewsHour, bailing out the Midwest and the view from China. FOCUS - AT THE CREST

MR. LEHRER: The Midwest flooding is our lead story again tonight. Today was Kansas City's day to worry. The Missouri and Kansas Rivers are at flood stages at their confluence at the border between Kansas City, Missouri, and Kansas City, Kansas. All the businesses and homes in the nearby city of Parkville were evacuated. In a Kansas City, Kansas, business district along the river stores were evacuated and buildings sandbagged in case the levees broke under the pressure of the floodwaters. Gov. Mel Carnahan of Missouri is here now to give us an update on the situation in the Kansas City area. Governor, is the worst over?

GOV. CARNAHAN: Well, I'm told that about noon today was the crest of this crisis and that they're resting a little bit easier. There were a number of precautionary evacuations done in the area in both Missouri and Kansas. I'm told as many as 7,000 people were moved out of their homes, and fortunately, the flooding did not reach all of those, but it was done as a precaution, because there was great fear that the levees on either the Kansas or the Missouri side would be broken today.

MR. LEHRER: But it turned out they were not.

GOV. CARNAHAN: It turned out they were not. Water supplies also were threatened for the city of Kansas City, and that apparently is holding, and they are on restricted use, but they are operating and I believe going to pass the crisis. They are losing some water systems downstream from Kansas City. Lexington, Missouri, lost its water system during the day, and we're taking great precautions and trying to get people to turn off their systems before they're swamped so that we can keep them, getting them going again quicker.

MR. LEHRER: St. Joseph, up the river, also still has a problem, does it not?

GOV. CARNAHAN: Yes. They went down on Sunday morning. We were able to get bottled water and bulk water in for drinking purposes in record short time, but they are out of water, and almost all businesses are closed down and employers are closed down, because there is no running water.

MR. LEHRER: Have these levees around Kansas City ever been tested like this?

GOV. CARNAHAN: None -- this is the worst test that we've had to endure, and there are really some success stories in all this, but, of course, the real newsy ones are the ones that break.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. When you say -- when we use the word "crest," what that means is that that is when the river started going back down, is that right?

GOV. CARNAHAN: That's correct.

MR. LEHRER: And all expectation is, I mean, it started back down and that it's not expected to rise again.

GOV. CARNAHAN: And I think that's true unless we get more rain. We had the crest about ten days, two weeks ago, that we thought was "the" crest of this flood, but with the heavy rains upstream a few days ago that's the result we're getting now.

MR. LEHRER: You're saying about 7,000 people were evacuated in the Kansas City area, is that right?

GOV. CARNAHAN: That's correct.

MR. LEHRER: And any, any other major flooding other than what we reported?

GOV. CARNAHAN: No. That was the remarkable activity for the day. The worst of the last few days was the loss of the water system in St. Joseph on Sunday.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Governor, don't go away. Thank you. We turn now to two other flood battles, a personal one being fought with the Mississippi and a political one being fought here in Washington. We have back-to-back reports from Kwame Holman in Washington and Elizabeth Brackett in St. Genevieve, Missouri, just south of St. Louis.

MS. BRACKETT: Fighting the river is nothing new for the historic river town of St. Genevieve. Settled in 1735, St. Genevieve was the first European town west of the Mississippi. After disastrous floods wiped out the town in the late 1700s, city fathers moved it from the Mississippi River banks to higher ground nearby. This year's floods have shown that they didn't move it high enough. Though most of the historic homes are above water at the moment, 70 other homes have been swallowed up by the river. Coast Guard Ens. Jerry Navert patrols Main Street by boat.

ENS. JERRY NAVERT, U.S. Coast Guard: We get predicted crests from time to time, and it seems like for a point of time on a daily basis, we will get a crest one day and the next day they would say well, sorry, that wasn't really the crest, here's the next one, and it would keep going up. And then unfortunately, some of the levees broke in some of the communities south of here, and then the water recedes around here as a result, because all that water then empties into their towns. In that case, it gives them a little reprieve around here. They aren't necessarily grateful that someone else's town is flooded. No one wants that to happen by any far stretch.

MS. BRACKETT: The ever changing crest reports have made Richard Ullman's battle to save the family home particularly frustrating. The house is on Main Street, just north of downtown. Now the levee Ullman, his neighbors, and volunteers have built over the last four weeks sits on Main Street, just barely holding off the water from Ullman's front door.

RICHARD ULLMAN, Homeowner, St. Genevieve, MO: When it was 39 foot, the first crest, you thought it was going to be. Then after you kept getting more rain, here from up above, you know, you was only getting like a few inches at a time, maybe a foot, kept going to forty, forty-one, and you was staying ahead of it all the time, so, you know, there wasn't no thought of really giving up.

MS. BRACKETT: The crest prediction reports are made by the Army Corps of Engineers. When a crest is reached, it does not mean the danger has passed. Additional rain or levee breaks can mean a new crest a few hours or a few days later. What's really happening says Army Corps of Engineer Col. Jim Craig is that the Mississippi has been on a continuing crest in the St. Louis area since a week ago Sunday.

COL. JIM CRAIG, Army Corps of Engineers: We sometimes try to predict precisely where the scientific crest is, but what we really did was Sunday evening we reached a crest here, and we're still on that crest.

MS. BRACKETT: And when do you think the crest willbe over? People here would love to know.

COL. JIM CRAIG: Yeah. I'd love to be able to answer that question, but the answer really lies in Mother Nature. When's it going to stop raining?

NATIONAL GUARD SPOKESMAN: [measuring water] Okay. Top of your sandbag here it's 48 1/4.

MS. BRACKETT: The continuing or ever changing crests have meant a careful watch on the levee by the Ullman house. This morning National Guardsmen were taking new measurements, trying to predict just how high the river might go. After today's measurements were taken, the decision was made to try and raise the sandbags up to the 50 foot level. Hopefully that will protect the homes before next week's predicted crest. That one is expected to be at 48 feet.

[SONG IN BACKGROUND -- "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay"]

MS. BRACKETT: An hour later, sandbaggers arrive to help Ullman add the extra foot to the levee, not volunteers this time but prisoners from the Farmington Correctional Center just up the road. They have been helping out for the last two weeks and inmate Robert Shorter says hard work in 100 degree temperatures didn't bother him.

ROBERT SHORTER, Prisoner, Farmington Correctional Center: I'm contributing some kind of work and helpin', lettin' 'em know I'm still thinkin' about them, you know.

MS. BRACKETT: Do you think you're going to keep the water out?

ROBERT SHORTER: I'm gonna try, gonna try.

MS. BRACKETT: Just as important as the sandbagging was the pumping. Without the pumps, water seeping through the levee would mean the Ullman house would quickly suffer the same fate as the houses just three doors away. With all the destruction in the area, Ullman says help from the government will be essential.

RICHARD ULLMAN: Right on this area there's probably 25 houses down through there that people need money to get back in their homes. That's just in this small area. There's no telling how many families around here, you know, need the money.

MS. BRACKETT: Now people say, well, these people built next to the river, it was on a flood plain, you know, they knew this could happen, why should the government, why should tax dollars be bailing them out?

RICHARD ULLMAN: Well, a lot of these houses, ours has been there 70 years. Who expected a flood of 47 foot?

MS. BRACKETT: Those in St. Genevieve who never thought their battle against the river would be this tough say they will continue to try and save what's left of their town no matter how high or how long the Mississippi's crest might be. They say it's what those who first crossed the mighty river to put down roots here 250 years ago would expect.

WOMAN: [talking to President Clinton] I can't take it anymore.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Just hang in there.

MR. HOLMAN: In an effort to demonstrate Washington's for victims of the Midwest flooding, President Clinton has visited the flood zone three times in the last month. It was after a tour of the flooded area of Des Moines, Iowa, two weeks ago that the President promised emergency federal relief would soon be on its way.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think there is enormous bipartisan support in the Congress for this. There is no sense that this is something that should be held hostage to the budget negotiations, and we're going to do just fine on that, I think.

MR. HOLMAN: But today, while flood victims continued to battle high water, Congress still was battling over emergency funds to help them. At issue wasn't whether money for flood victims was needed. The debate was over how to pay for it.

REP. GERALD SOLMON, [R] New York: Let us all admit, once and for all, that there are legitimate arguments on both sides of this issue of whether disaster relief should be paid for, or should be allowed to add to the deficit.

REP. RICHARD DURBIN, [D] Illinois: We need a helping hand in the Midwest. We're not looking for your sympathy. We want some assistance to get back on our feet, and we shouldn't have to be embroiled in this partisan debate and see this kind of gridlock at the expense of needy people.

MR. HOLMAN: During today's debate, conservative Democrats argued for a voting rule that would allow them to propose making up the cost of flood relief with cuts in other federal programs.

REP. JIM SLATTERY, [D] Kansas: All this member is suggesting is that we have an opportunity to vote up or down on a simple amendment, and that's to cut the discretionary budget next year across-the-board by 1 percent to pay for the first disaster assistance requested of $3 billion. That's all this member is requesting.

MR. HOLMAN: Republicans had an additional objection. They wanted to remove mention of a job training program championed by Los Angeles Congresswoman Maxine Waters,

REP. NEWT GINGRICH, Minority Whip: There is nothing in this provision which helps the flood victims. There is nothing in this provision which relates to the Missouri or the Mississippi. In fact, the Waters amendment is being floated on the floodwaters of the Midwest. Why? Because in a freestanding, up or down vote, it wouldn't survive the debate. It couldn't get 218 votes, or at least I assume that's what the Democratic leadership believes.

MR. HOLMAN: Last Thursday, using their combined opposition, 45 conservative Democrats and the Republicans were able to defeat the voting rule and thereby temporarily shelve the flood legislation.

SPOKESMAN: The vote on the resolution is 205 yeas, 216 nays. The resolution is defeated.

MR. HOLMAN: That prompted this reaction from President Clinton yesterday.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Here are these people out here, up to their ears in tragedy, wondering when Congress is going to get around to passing the flood relief.

MR. HOLMAN: Spurred on by the President's comments, today's Washington visit by flood state governors and angry calls from constituents, the House today took up the same flood legislation, and late this afternoon sided with its supporters.

REP. MAXINE WATERS, [D] California: You cannot fool the people on this one. You're either for the flood victims, or you're against them. If you are for them, you are going to vote for this rule. If you want to hold it up and you want to go home another weekend and explain to them that you didn't care enough about them to get past this nonsense, then you try it, because the American people will not stand for it. I yield back the balance of my time.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT, Majority Leader: Let's not have a budget discussion. Let's have an emergency discussion. Let's pass this rule and pass this bill. Let's pull this Congress together and pull this country behind the people that are out there fighting for their lives in the Mississippi Valley today.

MR. HOLMAN: On this try, the controversial rule passed by 19 votes, leading to a final vote on flood relief which carried overwhelmingly 400 to 27. Now the bill goes to the Senate where the fight over the Waters amendment could resurface.

MR. LEHRER: Six Midwestern governors were in Washington today. They met with the President and with members of Congress to expedite this federal assistance for flood victims. Three of those are with us tonight: Republican Jim Edgar of Illinois; Terry Branstad of Iowa; plus the Democratic Governor of Missouri, Mel Carnahan, who's still with us from earlier. It seems to me, Gov. Edgar, you all had a productive day. You come, the Congress says okay, and they vote, and you got your money.

GOV. EDGAR: I wish it happened that way every time we came out here. My sense was that both sides understood they needed to do something and that we were glad to see that they took the action in the House. It's far from over. As we've pointed out for several days, it's going to take more than $3 billion that's being debated now, and I think everyone understands that. I'm sure --

MR. LEHRER: Are you convinced that everybody understands that, Gov. Branstad?

GOV. BRANSTAD: Well, it's an important first step, and when we met with the President this afternoon, he increased the amount, said he was going to recommend an additional 1.1 billion. We think the loss is in excess of 10 billion, so he's still going to have to go up. When we met in St. Louis, it was 2.5 billion. It's now up to three, as it passed the House. Hopefully, the Senate will increase it well beyond that, but, you know, the damages keep mounting as the rains continue and as the flooding gets more and more areas of the Midwest.

MR. LEHRER: Gov. Edgar, do you see a connection between President Clinton's attack on Congress yesterday and the quick vote today in the House?

GOV. EDGAR: My sense is that many of those who opposed it last week were doing it on some reasons nothing to do with the flood, and they realized the time had come to move on. Those are arguments, those are battles that are still going to have to be fought down the road, but I think over the weekend, the feeling was the time had come to move this.

MR. LEHRER: Gov. Carnahan, are you going to go back to Missouri tonight or tomorrow and tell the people of Missouri that the people in Washington understand the problem in the flood areas of the Midwest?

GOV. CARNAHAN: I am going to tell them that we are making it as vividly clear as possible the tremendous impact of this flood and this continuing flood is having on us, it's having on all of us in the Midwest. I think sometimes we have to come and dramatize it and draw pictures, if you will, and say that, well, we can't have business as usual. I objected to them trying to get into the budget debate and peripheral things. This should be a flood disaster bill for the Midwest just as we've handled disasters this way in the past. That's the treatment we want. It's not a special treatment, and I object to any indication that we're getting special treatment. We're not.

MR. LEHRER: Tell me why it isn't special.

GOV. CARNAHAN: We -- because the disasters of the hurricanes in Florida or the earthquakes in the West were treated on their own basis. That's what we want. We should not be embroiled in the overall budget debate. That's not the time to have it. If Congress can't act in a time of national military emergency, which they do, or in time of natural disasters, then they can't act at all, and I think that's the way the people of my state feel, and I feel that I am clearly speaking for them when I bring that message, that now's the time to get it done. Now we did get over a step today, and I'm pleased. But we do have a Senate debate. We don't want a recurrence of this or similar things. We felt we got an assurance that that was not likely, but --

MR. LEHRER: Where did you get that from?

GOV. CARNAHAN: Sen. Mitchell, Sen. Dole, and I got it from my Senators, and I think the other governors can speak for their conversations. But we didn't get any indications we were going to have a repeat of this in the Senate, but we sure don't want it. The other thing is the message that the size of the package, it clearly is not adequate for the federal share, and we hope that it will be increased further in the Senate, and that was, we made that very plain, and the Senators seemed receptive. The administration seemed receptive.

MR. LEHRER: What did your Senators from Iowa tell you? You have one of each, a Republican and a Democrat.

GOV. BRANSTAD: They've both been very supportive and very helpful in this process, and we also made the point that we need to waive the local and state match in some of these areas that are really hard hit.

MR. LEHRER: Explain why that's so important.

GOV. BRANSTAD: Okay. When the federal government provides assistance, it's done like on a 75/25 match. But when a community has been devastated, and they've lost their industry and jobs, it's very hard to come up with that 25 percent state and local match. It's been waived before. It was waived in the case of Hurricane Andrew and Hugo and many other instances, and so we've asked the administration and the Congress to see that it's waived in the same way that it has been in the past for those communities that are the hardest hit and the states that are the hardest hits. And the states represented here tonight have all been devastated. Our losses in Iowa, 2.7 billion, you know, thousands of people out of work, millions of acres of farmland that has been wiped out for this crop year.

MR. LEHRER: Is this bill that passed the House today, does it do what you want done?

GOV. BRANSTAD: It does but not enough.

MR. LEHRER: What does it do to the match?

GOV. BRANSTAD: It doesn't do anything on the match. We hope that the Senate will address that or the President, and we brought that issue up with the President. And he indicated a willingness to consider that, that although they had not moved as quickly as was done say with Hurricane Andrew last year in Florida.

MR. LEHRER: Gov. Edgar, what kind of reading did you get from your Illinois congressional delegation, the Senators and the House members?

GOV. EDGAR: They're supportive. I mean, they'd had some philosophical discussions about how are you going to pay for this, but I think everyone understands that's a debate that needs to be argued down the road.

MR. LEHRER: Does it matter to you as the governor of Illinois? Does it matter to you whether it's on budget or off budget? Do you have a position on that?

GOV. EDGAR: No. My concern is to be treated the same as other disasters have been treated, whether on the East Coast, the West Coast. I think the Midwest ought to be treated the same, and that was the argument we were making today, and I think everyone subscribes to that.

MR. LEHRER: So if, if it requires raising the federal deficit to provide this flood relief, that's fine with you?

GOV. EDGAR: Well, what they've done in the past is they have not got into the issue about how's it going to be paid for. They passed the relief, and that's what we've asked for.

MR. LEHRER: And then worry about it later.

GOV. EDGAR: Then you have to debate it, and I think that debate will follow. But to say we're going to have that debate first while there are people who are homeless, people who are without jobs, businesses that can't reopen, I think they have their priorities wrong. They need to come in as they've done in the past and help those victims now, and then they can have that philosophical debate when there aren't people who are out of home and out of jobs waiting for the federal government to act.

MR. LEHRER: Did you get the feeling, Gov. Edgar, from anybody, either at the White House or in Congress, that hey, wait a minute, guys, there's a limit to how much the federal, you'd better get this flood over in a hurry because there's a limit to how much money the federal government is going to come up with, this is a bad time for federal expenditures?

GOV. EDGAR: They all expressed the timing was not the best, but they know we don't control Mother Nature. But I might say both houses, both parties, and also the President understand that this is something the federal government has a responsibility to act, and just as they've acted in other disasters, the fact that this disaster might be greater than the ones they've dealt with in the past doesn't mean they're not going to act to help the people.

MR. LEHRER: Did you smell any cap coming, Gov. Branstad?

GOV. BRANSTAD: Well, the concern is that the amount they've been talking about is not adequate, but the encouraging news is that it keeps increasing. As the toll of the damages comes in, they, I think, realize that they're going to have to continue to do more, and in the past, the administrations and Congresses have taken that action. We're just asking for the same kind of treatment that's been provided.

MR. LEHRER: Gov. Carnahan, what's your feeling about whether or not there's a magic number out there beyond which you're not going to be able to go no matter what happens out there?

GOV. CARNAHAN: No, I don't think anyone's going to impose it in that way. We will have to fight for what we get. We're doing that. We brought additional information to our Senate delegations over the weekend, and they're working with that to see what the actual figure will be in the Senate bill. And everyone recognizes that there will very likely have to be a supplemental, because we are dealing with projections. The floodwaters aren't down. It's important that the Congress act now but really the true nature of the damages we know it's going to be much higher. We're approaching $3 billion in damages in Missouri alone just to get the perspective of our damage against the size of the package. That's the reason we're so confident that ultimately the entire package will have to be higher, there will have to be a supplemental.

MR. LEHRER: Let's go back from Washington back to each of your states for a few moments here. Gov. Edgar, tell us what the floods have done thus far in your state.

GOV. EDGAR: Well, it's forced about 13,000 people from their homes. It's destroyed about 2,000 farms. It's put --

MR. LEHRER: Destroyed them in what way?

GOV. EDGAR: Well, you're not going to have a crop this year. You're not going to have a crop next year, or for maybe a few more years, because we don't know the extent of the damage to the soil. People are out of work. People that aren't really hit by the flood, their jobs rely on driving over a river, and they can't get over that river because the bridges are closed.

MR. LEHRER: Particularly in your --

GOV. EDGAR: Between the two states, we can't get back and forth.

MR. LEHRER: -- in all of these cases, people are going across rivers, to live in Illinois, to work in Missouri, vice versa.

GOV. EDGAR: So it's had a huge effect.

MR. LEHRER: Missouri over here, sorry.

GOV. EDGAR: It's had a huge effect, and it's touched the lives of tens of thousands of people already, and the thing to remember, this isn't over yet. We still have another week to go in Illinois.

MR.LEHRER: How do you know that we have another week?

GOV. EDGAR: Because the flood's not going to crest in some parts till this time next week. And until it crests, we still don't know the extent of the damage. Even after a crest, it still could knock some of the levees over, but at the shortest, we have a week more to go, and there can be a lot more damage, a lot more people put out of work, a lot of people lose their homes, a lot of farms destroyed, so again, back to the cost, all we can do now is estimate. We just know it's going to keep going up.

MR. LEHRER: Gov. Branstad, of course, the situation in Des Moines got an awful lot of attention, national attention with the loss of the water supply and whatever. Including, Des Moines, tell us what happened in Iowa, and what the situation is tonight.

GOV. BRANSTAD: Well, this is the worst natural disaster in the history in the state of Iowa, but I'm very proud of the way that people have rallied and their patience, their understanding, and the way they've helped each other through this time. The Iowa National Guard's done a great job. State employees worked without air conditioning, without water, without restroom facilities throughout this to provide assistance to people. And so people have really pulled together, and so there's a positive side to this. It's a terrible disaster, and yet it's shown the best in the Midwest ethic of helping other people, and we're going to get through this. Our concern is to get enough help from the federal government to those people that are hurt the most so they can pick their lives back up, they can repair their businesses or their homes, and hopefully and their farms, and be able to move forward from this. So I'm hopeful, but I know we've got a big cleanup and a lot of recovery ahead of us.

MR. LEHRER: Now, Gov. Carnahan, you've got problems on both sides of your state. I gather you already had the Mississippi. Now you've got the Missouri and Kansas Rivers. Give us -- we already talked a little bit about the situation in Kansas City. Give us some overviews of Missouri.

GOV. CARNAHAN: Well, we have record high water on the west side, the whole west side from far northwest Missouri by St. Joseph to Kansas City. The water is finally receding some today. We had the crest to move across our state, we go across the middle also.

MR. LEHRER: Forgot about that.

GOV. CARNAHAN: And we're going to set record highs at our capital city, two feet higher than it was ten days ago. And that's going to cause --

MR. LEHRER: Now what river is that?

GOV. CARNAHAN: That's the Missouri.

MR. LEHRER: The Missouri is going down through the center of the state.

GOV. CARNAHAN: Crossing --

MR. LEHRER: Right.

GOV. CARNAHAN: And then we're expecting crests next week in St. Louis and below St. Louis, and that, of course, affects Gov. Edgar in the southern Illinois area. So we do have a week of tension, of record high waters moving across, and that's counting on no more rain. So we've got --

MR. LEHRER: Are you counting on no more rain?

GOV. CARNAHAN: We're hoping so. We're getting some indication that might be true. We had 20,000 people evacuated out of their homes before today. We've got at least 1500 businesses closed, and that doesn't count the St. Joseph closings of the last few days. So we've got a record amount of damage and probably over a third of our agricultural crop of the state, and that's our No. 1 industry in our state is either destroyed or greatly reduced. So the impact is very, very great in our state.

MR. LEHRER: Gov. Edgar, is there apsychic impact on your people that live on the river? Has their attitude about the river changed?

GOV. EDGAR: Many of them have seen floods before. They've never seen of this magnitude, and I think there proved to be a false security because of the levees that had been built since the big flood in the middle of 1960. There's no doubt though some people will not move back. Others will move back, because that's the life they know. But this flood is so huge and it's taking so long to get resolved, there's going to be some I think, some serious probably mental problems we're going to have to deal with, something we really haven't talked too much about, but something our state has already begun to move on as far as counseling and providing help to people just as they're going to need infrastructure, they're going to need counseling on handling this catastrophe.

MR. LEHRER: The same problem in Iowa?

GOV. BRANSTAD: Absolutely. You know, when you go on and battle these floods for week after week, after week, and it continues to rain, it certainly wears on you. Yet, the indomitable spirit, the will to win of the people has been really encouraging, and I've been so proud to go around the state, and I've been all over talking to people, and they say how much they appreciate --

MR. LEHRER: Good to see you in a coat and tie, Governor.

GOV. BRANSTAD: You bet. After two weeks in blue jeans and a work shirt, but I decided I'd better go back to starting to dress like a governor again, but I'll tell you, I'm really proud of the people. We know we have a lot ahead of us, but it's that spirit that I think is going to get us through in the Midwest.

MR. LEHRER: Thank you all three very much, and good luck to all three of you. NEWSMAKER

MR. MUDD: We turn now to another part of the world, Asia and China. Sec. of State Warren Christopher now on his way home from Asia said his trip demonstrated new American interest and attention to the region. Part of his job was to prepare for a summit of Pacific nations, including China, later this year in Seattle. A NewsHour team has been in China and recently interviewed China's vice premiere and foreign minister Qian Qichen. The interview was conducted in Beijing by Robert Oxman, a China scholar, investment adviser, and former president of the Asia Society.

MR. OXMAN: Mr. Vice Premier, thank you very much for taking time to meet with us. Let me begin by asking you, now that the Cold War is over, who does China see as its major threats and perhaps its major allies?

QIAN QICHEN, Foreign Minister, China: [speaking through interpreter] I don't think that a country has to set an enemy or a main threat. We are not going to enter into any alliance, and we are not going to join any bloc of countries. The purpose of China's foreign policy is to create a good international environment for China's economic development. So we're interested in maintaining world peace.

MR. OXMAN: As a follow-up question, recently President Clinton was in South Korea, and he spoke very strongly about his worries concerning North Korea. Since China has a close relationship with North Korea, can you describe your policy towards the situation and what China might do to ease the tensions on the Korean Peninsula?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] With regards to the question of the Korean Peninsula, we have two objectives. The first one is to maintain stability on the Korean Peninsula. And secondly, we do not opt to see the presence of any nuclear weapons on the Korean Peninsula, so our purpose is to ensure the denuclearization on the Korean Peninsula, at the same time also to see, hope to see the maintenance of stability and the relaxation of tension on the Korean Peninsula. It is impossible to realize one objective in isolation from the other. For example, if one only tries to ensure denuclearization, but that, if that is done at the cost of peace and stability, that would mean that one has forgotten the fundamental objection. At the same time, if in order to ensure peace and stability two sides, the two sides there have developed nuclear weapons, and if that is the case, the objective cannot be realized either.

MR. OXMAN: Just one other question about Korea. President Clinton does not rule out the possibility of military force in order to address this question. If, indeed, that happened, what would China's policy be?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] The United States and EPRK are now having talks on this issue. I think this is the appropriate channel to address this question. It is undesirable to result to force.

MR. OXMAN: How does China explain the fact that its defense budget has gone up since the Cold War when most other countries have gone down, and does the new acquisition of military technology from the Soviet Union indicate a more aggressive China?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] In terms of figure, indeed, there has been some increase in China's defense budget, but still, China's budget is at a very low level. The average annual defense budget in China is about three to seven point three billion U.S. dollars. As you should know, that's a very small figure. For Japan, it is 30 billion U.S. dollars, and for United States it is 300 billion U.S. dollars. And we'll have to use that amount of money to maintain a 3 million army, so it is impossible for China to buy a large amount of guns from foreign countries, so I don't think that China is buying large amount of weapons from foreign countries, including the former Soviet Union.

MR. OXMAN: Let us turn to some domestic issues. Some Americans worry about the question of human rights in China. What can you tell us about the current situation on human rights? And are we going to see substantial releases of those protesters who are now in prison from the democracy wall or the Tiananmen demonstration period?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] It is not matter of whether it is possible to lead those people, which is to say that most of those people have already been released. Well, after the investigations, most of those people have been released. Those people who have violated the law and have been released in accordance with the degree of the seriousness of the offenses, well, as you know, a lot of people participated in the demonstrations on Tiananmen, or the so-called "Democracy Wall." But for most of them we did not look into their criminal responsibilities, but there are a small number of people who violated the law, who disrupted the public order, and caused damage to public facilities. And we had to deal with these people in accordance with the law.

MR. OXMAN: As a follow-up question, some journalists complain that when they try to interview those who were formerly in prison and still now out but have critical views of the government that they're either prevented or actively discouraged from meeting with them. What is your policy in terms of journalists meeting with such people?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] A lot of those people that you have just referred to have actually gone abroad. some of them are now in the United States, so it will be very easy for you to find these people. As for those who are still in China, we have to take into consideration the fact that when the foreign journalists want to interview them, they do not just do so for the need of making new, making news reports or to get to know the views of these people. They also have some other objectives, so it is necessary for us to take some protective measures.

MR. OXMAN: I wanted to ask you about some problem areas in the economy. What is your view of the seriousness of inflation and overheating in the economy today?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] The economy in China is enjoying a high rate of growth, so some unhealthy trend may occur in this course, so we will manage economy on the one hand, we have to ensure a high growth rate, and on the other hand, we have to ensure a healthy growth rate. So when it, to constantly adjust our economy, it is like driving car where you have to apply both the gears and the brakes, otherwise, it will be very dangerous.

MR. OXMAN: There are reports in the newspapers in China about corruption. How serious is corruption in China from your point of view?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] If we do not pay attention to this corruption with a view to preventing it, then corruption will only get more serious. But still, this is something that is partly avoidable in the course of high economic growth and dynamic business activities. In order to solve this problem, we have to work from two perspectives. On the one hand, we have to formulate all those laws and regulations needed for the establishment of a socialist market economy. And on the other hand, the government officials and the law enforcement partners must also be clean and honest, and those who are corrupt must be dealt with.

MR. OXMAN: Another problem that many visitors to China complain about is pollution. How is this problem going to be resolved?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] Indeed, with the development of the industry pollution has become a serious problem. And in order to solve this problem, we tried to improve the various measures for the environment, environmental protection. For example, newly established enterprises must meet the requirements in terms of environmental protection, and as far as the using of fuel is concerned in big cities like Beijing, which many rely on gas, on natural gas or electricity in order to reduce the consumption of coal.

MR. OXMAN: There have also been reports of some difficult social issues, for instance, some rural populations rising up over taxation issues. How serious is that problem, Mr. Vice Premier?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] I don't think the rise against taxation is the main problem in the rural areas in China. I think a more serious problem is that when the departments concerned purchase the agricultural products from the farmers, they issue IOU's. So we have to adopt measures in this regard. We cannot owe debt to these farmers, and the measures we have been adopting are quite effective, and if we can realize that objective, then the farmers will be quite happy. Secondly, the tax levied on the farmers is very small, but at the same time, there are a lot of other additional requirements on the farmers. These are illegal. They have to be eliminated.

MR. OXMAN: There has been a lot of publicity in the United States about Chinese who have immigrated to America. How do you explain this on the Chinese side?

QIAN QICHEN: [speaking through interpreter] There are two reasons. The first one is that since China introduced the policy of opening to the outside world, some Chinese citizens want to go abroad, including the United States, for a look. And also the second reason is that there are some international criminal organizations who organize illegal immigration. The base for these organizations is not in China. Maybe it is in the United States. These people have taken advantage of the loophole in the United States foreign policy in this regard, i.e., once you step on the land of the United States, then you can apply for political asylum in United States. Then you can stay there for quite a long period of time, and then these people will disappear. You are not able to find them. They may have got jobs somewhere. You don't know where they are. That is why this problem has cropped up, because there are some international criminal organizations organizing such illegal immigration. The position of the Chinese government is that we're opposed to illegal immigration. With regard to those legal immigrants, we give them passports and we offer them the opportunities. But it is difficult for them to get the visa from the United States. That is why you can see long lines of people waiting in front of the U.S. embassy for visa, because they have got the passport from the Chinese side, but they cannot get the visa from the American side.

MR. MUDD: The NewsHour will present several reports on China after Oxman and the production team returns next month. ESSAY - EVERYBODY LOVES A LOSER

MR. MUDD: Finally tonight, essayist Roger Rosenblatt, contributing editor of Vanity Fair Magazine, has some thoughts on a peculiar baseball hero.

ROGER ROSENBLATT: At this writing, as one says in self-protective journalism, pitcher Anthony Young of the New York Mets has lost 26 straight games, improving on his own record of 25 and before that 24, the former record breaker. Twenty-six games in a row. By the time you see this, Young's record may have been ruined. He may have won again. If that is so, three cheers in a row for Anthony Young for giving baseball fans not only a record but a string of losses that places him near the top of history's sublime pantheon of losers. Young towers over Vidas Geralitis, for example. Geralitis once lost 17 straight matches to John McEnroe, but he beat McEnroe in the 18th match. Geralitis boasted, "Nobody beats Vida Geralitis 18 times in a row." Baseball loves a record holders, so it will, I believe, erect a special Hall of Fame for Anthony Young. Here is a man who first of all has made a fine art of losing. He has found every possible way to lose, a feat no less remarkable than a player who finds every possible way to win. Young lost 14 games as a starter, 12 as a reliever. In day games he was 0 and 7, in night games 0 and 19. He went 0 and 16 at home, 0 and 10 on the road. In his 25th straight loss, a rainout to the Giants three to one, Young aided his own cause by overthrowing first, setting up the winning, his losing run. In his 26th straight loss, he retired 23 batters in a row before giving up a homerun that beat him. Meanwhile, his fellow Mets were mustering one hit among them in Young's support. I tell you, the man knows how to lose. This is exactly why Young is going to be enshrined in baseball memory forever. Everybody loves a loser when he's a virtuoso loser. The Mets have specialized in such players. I give you marvelous Mark Throneberry or as he was most familiarly known, "What a Pair of Hands." People love losers, period. Most of us are losers much of the time. Rooting for winners isa fantasy, rooting for losers self-identification. And you can't tell me that those Mets fans don't show up at Shay Stadium to see Anthony Young lose. The Mets are likely to lose anyway, and here's their hero, a man of the people. Young, God bless him, is in a "no lose" situation. The best part though is the streak. A losing streak is a magnificent hypnotic attraction, and the same thoughts apply to a losing streak as to a winning streak. Can he keep it up? Will something unpredictable get in the way to spoil his loss? Hang in there, Young. One more inning, and you're dead. Remember the Columbia University football team a few years back, their record of 0 and a million? We could not take our eyes off them, and why was that? Because they were the best at what they did, because they had stamina, endurance, because they knew that anybody can lose a lot of the time or half the time, or even most of the time. But to lose all the time, that separates the goats from the goats. Anthony Young, of course, is not a goat but a man. And after that 26th straight loss, it'll be saddening to look at him dazed, bewildered, that the gods of baseball had singled him out for this odd distinction. Twenty-three straight batters retired, seven strike- outs, no walks, and he loses. What do I have to do, Young must have wondered. Nothing, is the answer, nothing at all. You've done it, Young. You've set a record that may be the hardest to top in baseball, because any other pitcher would have been sent to the minors long ago. But you're good, Young. You've got a good ERA, better than most winners, and you can throw. It's just that you lose. Three hundred hitters will come and go. No hit pitchers will come and go. But only a handful hold the records, Ruth, Cobb, Erin, Cofax, Williams, Mays, Gibson, DeMaggio, and Anthony Young. I'm Roger Rosenblatt.

MR. MUDD: For the record, Young lost his 27th game last Saturday. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Tuesday, the House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed a three billion dollar emergency aid bill for victims of the floods in the Midwest. After meeting with Midwest governors, President Clinton said he would ask Congress for another $1.1 billion in aid. The President also announced a plan to curb illegal immigration. IBM reported an $8 billion second quarter loss and cut 35,000 more jobs. And this evening a car bomb exploded in the Italian city of Milan. Early reports indicated at least three people had been killed. About two hours later, two explosions were reported in Rome, but there was no immediate word on injuries or damage. The government has blamed other recent car bombings on the Mafia. Good night, Roger.

MR. MUDD: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night with continued flood coverage, among other things. I'm Roger Mudd. Thank you, and good night.