The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Interview with the Crown Prince of Jordan

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. King Hussein of Jordan said yesterday that the victory of Menahem Begin in Israel`s recent election had increased the chances of war in the Middle East. The King told the New York Times in an interview, "Before the Israeli election the chances of war were rather remote, but now I think there is a ground for serious concern." Tonight we look at the prospects for a Middle East settlement from the Jordanian point of view with King Hussein`s brother, the Crown Prince and heir to the throne, His Royal Highness Hassan Ibn Tala1 who is visiting the United States. No Arab country is as intimately involved in the questions leading to a settlement with Israel as Jordan. Its population is three fourths Palestinian, and one crucial piece of real estate holds the two countries` destinies together, like the interlocking piece in a jigsaw puzzle. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, the fight over that piece of the puzzle, known as the West Bank, has been going on for nearly sixty years. It really began in 1920, when what is now Jordan and Israel were part of the British mandate known as Palestine. The British carved it up in 1922 to create something called Transjordan, which became the modern kingdom of Jordan in 1946. The rest of Palestine, including the West Bank, was designated as a Jewish national home. Then carne the Israeli war of independence in 1948 when the British mandate ended. When the war was over, the West Bank as well as the city of Jerusalem wound up under the control of Jordan. It stayed that way until 1967, when the Israelis overran it in the Six-Day War, and they`ve occupied it ever since. Jordan stayed out of the 1973 Yom Kippur war, but King Hussein has never formally renounced his country`s claim to the West Bank. He has, however, recently supported the idea of an autonomous Palestinian homeland in confederation with Jordan. Most homeland proposals call for it to consist of the West Bank as well as the Gaza Strip and a connecting corridor. That, of course,-is what the peace negotiations are all about. Robin?

MacNEIL: Let`s now take up some of these questions with a man who is as close to the issues as King Hussein himself. Prince Hassan, who is thirty, is the King`s youngest brother. He was named Crown Prince in 1965, and he carries special responsibility for Jordan`s economic development. Your Highness, your brother King Hussein, as I mentioned at the beginning, said yesterday that the chances of a new war had increased because of the Israeli election. Why is that, in your view?

H.R.H. HASSAN IBN TALAL: Well, I think the answer to that question is self- evident in the background of the Likud Party and particularly of the individual background of Mr. Begin himself. Of course Mr. Begin, as was described in that New York Times article, did hold responsibility in the late sixties as a Minister without portfolio and it is possible that responsibility might have a salutary effect on the attitudes of that particular party. But there is certainly a grave concern that extremism -- or polarization of extremism on one side or on both sides of the equation might well lead us away from, as opposed to further down the path towards, peace.

MacNEIL: What specific sequence of events do you in Amman envision that might be caused by Mr. Begins victory? What could happen that would make war more likely?

HASSAN: We feel that there has been a tremendous effort over the past years since the 1967 war, many motive attempts, many initiatives made, and to all of these efforts the Likud has not been an active participant. On the contrary, the Likud has rejected to a large extent the peacemaking process out of hand, as it were, with statements on the West Bank which make us feel particularly uncomfortable. We had hoped, of course, that this process would still continue, and we still do, in the direction of an ultimate definition of positions on the rights of the Palestinians, on the question of future restoration of these rights and, of course, on the basis of the two resolutions of the United Nations in which we have participated actively and which, to His Majesty`s credit, have been achieved through the moderation of Jordan, among other elements in the area. We had hoped that this particular scenario would have evolved and still hope that once things have settled down in Tel Aviv that we would be able to read the situation more clearly.

MacNEIL: Is it that you fear that with Mr. Begin in power they would be intransigent, not wanting any compromise that might lead to a settlement and that that would incite some of your Arab colleagues to feel that negotiations weren`t worth the game any more and just to revert to force? Is that the sort of fear the...?

HASSAN: Well, I think that the concept of -- we were speaking of early history and the early beginnings -- I think that the possibilities of peacemaking have stumbled on the type of militancy represented by that very impressive list of generals, former chiefs of staff, chiefs of air force, chiefs of intelligence who form a part of the coalition that is taking place; and one can be strong but I think that one can also be too strong in a situation like that, and the military machine quite often tends to flex its muscles as an alternative to political solutions. We hope that that alternative will not be tried at this stage.

MacNEIL: I see. Jim?

LEHRER: Yes. Your Highness, do you read these election results in Israel as a major change in overall Israeli attitudes or just an electoral fluke of some kind?

HASSAN: I subscribe to the idea that the Israeli electorate necessarily went to the polls on domestic issues rather than foreign policy issues. I think that that reading is universally accepted, that domestic developments were on the mind of the Israeli electorate when they considered whether to vote for the Labor Party or not. But in terms of the future political developments in the area, I think that the silent majority in the area as a whole, be it on their side of the line or ours, have indicated their sickness with war and their innate hope that peace and stability can develop in our area.

LEHRER: Does the majority of the Arab community read these Israeli election results basically the same way you do, or is there division among the Arab states as to what Begin coming to power could mean?

HASSAN: I think there`s a resignation in certain quarters to the fact that, well, the Israelis are now showing their true hand and maybe the stronger this hand is the more likely it is to carry the establishment along in making difficult decisions. There`s also a feeling, of course, among those who question the whole concept of peacemaking along the lines that we`ve experienced in the formulation of Security Council resolutions or in the attempt to go to Geneva, that this is going to be another of those abortive attempts that give the only alternative to peacemaking in the Middle East which necessarily is a negative alternative. We are really worried that opportunism might gather momentum.

MacNEIL: Is that perhaps represented by the message which Iraq is reported today to have sent to other Arab countries, calling for an end to all this sort of negotiating phase and to get back to a military confrontation? Did Jordan in fact receive one of those messages?

HASSAN:I think my departure predated that particular message, but certainly I think that it would be only natural for certain Arab countries to consider contingency plans of this kind, to consider at least preparing the other alternative if the peace initiative were to be disproved.

MacNEIL: Would Jordan want to attend the kind of meeting of chiefs of staff that Iraq reportedly calls for in those messages to plan a military strategy?

HASSAN: This kind of meeting is a pretty regular feature of the Arab League...

MacNEIL: There wouldn`t be anything special about that.

HASSAN: I don`t feel at this stage, necessarily. We`re still in the peacemaking process; there is still a lot of optimism generated by the meetings with President Carter of all parties concerned, and certainly we hope that whoever takes over the helm of politics in Israel will also continue in that general direction.

LEHRER: You mentioned, Your Highness, the Begin position on the West Bank as the one that is the most troubling. If he holds to this position, which is that Israel is not going to give up the West Bank, is, then, war more inevitable, or is it in fact inevitable if he maintains that position?

HASSAN: I was rather happy that the New York Times article referred to the fact that the historical claim to Judean Sumeria was questioned by many in Israel. I think that taking a historical attitude to hanging on to the West Bank is possibly not a rational premise to start with at this stage. Of course, if we go back in our histories of the two Semitic peoples we could probably even predate that claim, and this is a subject for Biblical scholars. I think that the West Bank`s future should be decided in terms of the pressing deadlines that make the Middle East such a volatile and explosive area.

LEHRER: Do you have any reading as to how firm the Begin position is on this -- on the West Bank?

HASSAN: No reading as such; certainly a feeling that the founding fathers have not relaxed their grip, that he is one of the earlier generation in that sense and that he is adhering to principles that he has been pretty consistent with. But whether or not the tragic realities of the past twenty-five years have affected him-- I don`t see why they shouldn`t have in terms of the loss of life and property and the sheer destruction that the continued intransigence means -- I don`t know. I just hope that he recognizes that there are many among the Arabs who mean what they say when they dedicate their lives and their work to the cause of peace.

LEHRER: Jordan, of course, sat out the 1973 war. If this does eventually lead to war, would Jordan be willing to fight over the West Bank issue?

HASSAN:I don`t think anyone is willing to fight. I think we have, as we live in the cockpit of that area in the pivotal crossroads between all the experiments in the area, been involved in inexorable processes over the past years. Certainly if we are faced with that option and no other we would have to face up to it in the best way we could and give a good account of ourselves, but certainly we would explore every other possibility before ever having to take such a tragic decision.

MacNEIL: You say that the policy of holding on to the West Bank isn`t rational. Why isn`t it rational, just in terms of the realities at the moment? Israel is there in occupation, Israel has the strongest force immediately in the area. If it made that decision politically, could it just not continue to sit there?

HASSAN: I believe that Israel has to settle down to the idea of living with its neighbors, and the West Bank could well be an open window to its neighbors, to the Arab area east of it. And just ignoring that possibility in terms of economic and social ties, in terms of the various openings that the West Bank offers I think is ignoring the possibility of real peace which we all seek.

MacNEIL: I see; so it`s realistic in real politik terms, but it`s not realistic in social and economic terms.

HASSAN: Absolutely.

MacNEIL: What does Jordan want Israel to do regarding the West Bank? Do you still consider that you own the West Bank and you simply want Israel to give it back -- is that the Jordanian position, put very simply?

HASSAN: When we moved into the West Bank, as was described earlier on, it- was not a jockeying for real estate, it was a reaction to the request of the Palestinians in the West Bank in 1948 which led to the ultimate unification of the two banks in the Jordanian parliament in 1951. It was in response to that request that we entered the West Bank, but also the history of the West Bank probably shows that we have not been possessive about it as real estate, certainly not since under our aegis the Palestine Liberation Organization was created as a political voice for the Palestinians in 1964. While having had the responsibility for the West Bank, we have not found this responsibility contradictory to trying to further the Palestinian cause in general. Of course the question of representation of Palestinians looks rather different today than it did then as a result, and basically our commitment is to the principle: to the principle of the Palestinian cause being given a `fair case in the area and by international circles concerned.

MacNEIL: So you aren`t adamant about having the West Bank necessarily as a piece of Jordan.

HASSAN: There is certainly no specific thinking along those lines.

MacNEIL: I see.

LEHRER: Well, what would, then, be an equitable settlement of the West Bank issue from the Jordanian point of view?

HASSAN: A situation where the rights of the Palestinians in the West Bank were reflected by those people living under the occupation, where they come forward and express their view on the future of the (inaudible). Of course, there are over 800,000 Palestinians living outside the West Bank area, and certainly the two groups -- either the 1948 Palestinians or the 1967 refugees -- would also like to have a similar opportunity to be asked by the world, how do they feel about the political future of the area and where do they want to go? In short, we would like to see an autonomy developing in the West Bank which could relate to its neighbors in whichever way appeared practical to the people themselves.

MacNEIL: How much are you in Jordan counting on President Carter and the United States to bring about solid progress towards negotiations? In other words, how much is it up to Washington now to get it going?

HASSAN: Well, I think that Washington traditionally has been a pump primer for so many of the developments in the Middle East. Many positive developments have been sponsored over the years, in the fifties, and certainly we feel that Washington has the status with its (inaudible)to all capitals of the area to find common ground. We certainly hope that as a result of the continuing talks that President Carter will be able to form an American view of the situation which would at least contain the flash points that endanger the possibilities of peace and will be able to bring the points of view closer towards a rational discussion of these problems.

LEHRER: Do you have the impression that President Carter has a plan that he wants to put on the table for a Middle East settlement?

HASSAN:I think His Majesty made clear in the New York Times article -- of course, he had the opportunity of meeting him only a couple of months ago - - that this plan doesn`t appear to have been formed as yet; but certainly he is privileged to information relating to the area from the mouths of the players directly concerned, and-certainly this would amount to the formulation of a plan if he so wished. His commitment and his sincerity has been very well-received in all circles in the area and we hope, certainly, that he will abide by this momentum that he has created.

LEHRER: Do you have the feeling that his position and thus the United States` position has actually gone through a shift or a change since he became President -- our whole American attitude toward the Middle East?

HASSAN: Well, there is this period of waiting for the American elections to continue, and waiting now for the Israeli elections to appear, and of course there was a period of several months when the previous administration probably found it difficult to launch new initiatives. This process has now been consolidated, and I think that we are back on timetable.

LEHRER: But no change in policy? For instance, I noticed that your brother the King, in the interview of the New York Times, praised President Carter; you`ve just done the same thing. Do you perceive a change in American attitude toward the Arab position?

HASSAN: The absence of a specific plan doesn`t indicate a change in policy. I think that it has been the policy of the United States to put its good services to the service of peace-seeking in the Middle East. In that sense I think that we are focusing more clearly on that objective than ever before.

MacNEIL: Jordan has often taken positions which have been unpopular with some other parts of the Arab world. I won`t go through the list if you don`t quarrel with that observation. Has it changed? Is Jordan now back in the good graces of the Arab camp?

HASSAN: Living so closely to the problems of the area as we do, and living integrantly to many of them, particularly to the demographic problems, I think that it`s only natural that countries further afield should be critical, if only reflecting a certain degree of lack of awareness at times. But we have always tried, despite the incompatible reality between the political role that we shoulder and the burden of that role and the resources that we have available, to put our hands out to all Arab countries in trying to explain and make them more aware of the realities that ultimately will be a part of the responsibility that they shoulder, either in war or in peace. Today I think that this continuity -- His Majesty is celebrating his twenty-fifth anniversary this year, the longest reigning monarch in the area -- his particular consistency, I think, is paying off with a credit of good relations with all the Arab countries.

MacNEIL: That`s been very hard-won consistency at times, has it not?

HASSAN: Well, I suppose to be a real catalyst it has to be a hard task, and we`ve never been daunted by the difficulties.

MacNEIL: Have the revelations in this country about your brother the King accepting aid and monies from the CIA harmed him in other brother Arab eyes?

HASSAN: I think that His Majesty dealt with that particular problem very competently. He was very open about it, and in that sense I don`t think that rumor-mongering is necessarily harmful when a personality such as he is known so well. I think that his credit is very large in many quarters among Arab peoples and responsible people in other Arab countries.

MacNEIL: Is Jordan getting all the development aid it wants or needs from the brother Arab states and particularly the richer oil states?

HASSAN: We`re very hopeful that the growing institutional ability of countries such as Saudi Arabia to our immediate south and Kuwait and the other countries in the area -- United Arab Emirates -- will help us in developing a comprehensive economic and social development plan. Their commitment has been consistent since we launched our development process in 1971; since the restoration of stability after the civil strife and the war, which was a tremendous hiccup -- over five years of instability -- we have been able to attract over $600 million in investment, which has been good to (inaudible).

MacNEIL: I see. Jim?

LEHRER: I want to come back to the Palestinian question for a moment, Your Highness. What would be your solution -- you say the West Bank solution must be tied in as a vital part of the solution to the Palestinian question -- in specific terms, how would you resolve the Palestinian homeland question: the West Bank, Gaza Strip with a corridor in between, or what, Sir?

HASSAN: I think that to call on my meager resources with so many high- powered energies being devoted to finding solutions of innovatively linking Gaza with the West Bank or pricing peace in terms of whatever projects are needed and turning the West Bank into a haven that could take any number of Palestinians or all the Palestinians of the diaspora is probably a process that has to be left to time. But the basic fundamentals are that the Palestinians in the occupied territories should be given the opportunity of choosing their own future within withdrawal of the occupation. There are certain prerequisites economically and socially that I`d like to tell you about later if you are willing to ...

LEHRER: Do you think it`s possible for Jordan and Israel to work out some kind of confederation, some kind of cooperative set-up for a Palestinian homeland that would also then be acceptable to the PLO and other elements of the Palestinian movement?

HASSAN: This is going rather far down the line. We are at the present time looking at the peacemaking process as a confrontation state with similar responsibility to other states in the area. And since the Rabat decision of 1974 we of course are supporting the PLO as the principal representative of the question of Palestinian rights, and certainly we are trying to liaise as much as possible with Arab countries and with PLO in effecting this particular development of focusing on the realities in the West Bank as they stand and trying to recognize the absorptive capacity of that particular area and some of the demographic realities.

MacNEIL: Your Highness, since your particular responsibility is in the economic development of Jordan, is it vital for economic reasons to have close ties with Israel so that you can share the water and other resources of the region, and is this an important consideration in arriving at a peace settlement in the area?

HASSAN: Regionalizing the problems of the area is a very attractive concept provided it is approached within the realities of actually pricing such a process and actually considering the realities as they stand on the drum. When one speaks of water resources, for example, be they rainwater or irrigation or any other source of water, we are very much in need of this particular source and to this end if one looks at the map between the northern points of the Dead Sea, here, and the southern points of the Lake of Tiberias we have around two billion cubic meters which we hope we can harness to irrigate this area of the Jordan Valley of 1,200 square kilometers and take this water further down, possibly even to the Red Sea at the southern point.

MacNEIL: But that depends, then, on some kind of cooperation between Israel, not only in the West Bank part but in the parts in the North that aren`t in the West Bank, and Jordan to make this sort of mutual cooperation, doesn`t it?

HASSAN: We feel that the water that we have in this particular area can irrigate west of the river, as this line shows. This was on the cards prior to the 1967 occupation of the West Bank and can serve over 13,000 hectares of land in the West Bank proper. Similarly, drinking water needs could well be served by this source. But at the present time the reality, if the West Bank is to be regarded as an area with which we could cooperate effectively, being a recently occupied Arab territory, as opposed to pre- `48 Israel north of this point and south of this point, this particular trial balloon has not been a very successful one in the sense that the West Bank is totally under the grip of the occupational authority. There is no focal point, economically speaking, in the West Bank which can plan or react to initiatives on our side. The West Bank represented meager percentages of industry -- sixteen percent of industry -- and twenty-eight percent of agriculture only in 1967.

MacNEIL: I`m afraid we have to end it there. We`ve come to the end of our time. We`re very grateful to you for coming this evening. Good night, Jim, and thank you.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: And thank you, Your Highness.

HASSAN: Thank you.

MacNEIL: That`s all for tonight. Tomorrow night we examine the price of normalizing relations with the Vietnamese. Can we and should we meet their demands, and who will make that decision? I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.