The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Poland Martial Law Ending

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ROBERT MacNEIL [voice-over]: In Warsay, Poland's rulers meet to plan the lifting of martial law. In Chicago, Polish Americans pray for their homeland.

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MacNEIL: Good evening. Poland's military government announced today that martial law will end on December 31st, a development greeted with caution in the West and with scorn by exiled members of the Solidarity movement. Two high-ranking officials of the outlawed union movement said in Brussels that it looked like a cosmetic attempt to soothe Western public opinion and particularly Western bankers. The announcement was made as the Polish Parliament convened to debate the easing of the military clampdown imposed a year ago today. It was foreshadowed in a televised speech last night by the head of the martial law government, General Wojciech Jaruzelski. He warned what he called opponents of the Communist government, "Anarchy will not be allowed into Poland." The easing of martial law lifts the curfew, restrictions on mails and telephones, bans on domestic travel, and censorship of foreign news dispatches. But the ban on public gatherings stays, and Army officers will remain in major factories to prevent strikes. Tonight, what does the easing of martial law actually mean in Poland and to the West? Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Robin, official Washington had little to say about Warsaw's martial law announcement. White House spokesman Larry Speakes merely restated President Reagan's position that the U.S. would lift economic sanctions against Poland when all political prisoners are released, the free trade union movement is reinstated, and martial law is completely lifted.Speakes said the U.S. would continue to watch what the Polish government does, but he declined to characterize today's developments as even encouraging. A particular group of Americans in Chicago used different words to sum up their feeling about one year of martial law in Poland. They are the members of the Polish community of some 700,000 in Chicago, the largest single group of Poles living outside of Poland itself. Yesterday they marked the anniversary and the new word from Warsaw in a variety of ways, including a theatrical group's staging of an allegorical play about Poland's recent history.

1st POLISH AMERICAN [at commemoration, December 12, 1982]: I am very much for it. It is very hard even to describe how one feels if you don't -- if you have to stand in lines, if you don't have freedom. It is difficult.

2nd POLISH AMERICAN: The Polish people will never up their fight for freedom. The Polish people love freedom and they'll go through any sacrifice to live in decency like any other peace-loving and freedom-loving nation.

3rd POLISH AMERICAN: I feel that the people in Poland actually live in prison.

LEHRER [voice-over]: Later, many in Chicago's Polish-American community gathered in a Catholic church for a special service to pray for the deliverance of Poland from oppressive rule.

4th POLISH AMERICAN: Even if Jaruzelski lifts martial law he will still be considered a traitor by the Polish people. He will never be able -- he will never be popular.He will never be a popular leader.

5th POLISH AMERICAN: Jaruzelski has not won. He has won temporarily simply because there is no way that people can win with such an approach. It was just too drastic of an approach, and they really didn't realize the consequence of the situation. However, Jaruzelski has won temporarily. Eventually people will win; there's no question about it.

6th POLISH AMERICAN: I think the law has changed so drastically since a year ago that martial law is not needed anymore. And the government put new law in force, new rules under which they can get rid of elements which are not wanted. So, in other words, the martial law will not be needed anymore.

2nd POLISH AMERICAN: The lifting of martial law will make a little difference in the way that officially there will not be strict laws against any kind of movement. But basically, until the regime changes altogether, there won't be much change for the better.

MacNEIL: Now we hear from an American who left Poland only last week after living there for more than a year. He is David Ost, a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin who was in Poland on a Fulbright fellowship. From Warsaw he filed reports for the independent socialist newspaper In These Times. Mr. Ost, what do you make of the lifting of martial law?

DAVID OST: Well, I think that the government of General Jaruzelski has in the last year passed enough laws -- special legislation -- to really make the lifting of martial law now without great political significance. That is, first there was the law on self-management, which was a great gain of the Solidarity period. Basically the law in some senses stays intact but without the right to name the director of an enterprise, which everybody felt was really the heart of the reform. Second, there was a major law on the passing -- a new censorship law, a very liberal law, which the government has announced will not be -- will not be kept in the form that it was. And, lastly, of course, there was the law on trade unions, which basically prevents an independent trade union like Solidarity to arise again.

MacNEIL: So, as one of the people just said in Chicago, basically he can do everything he wants without keeping martial law in. Is that what you mean?

Mr. OST: Basically I feel that's correct, yeah.

MacNEIL: Can you give us a brief description of what it's been like there this last year? What has life been like for the average Pole under martial law?

Mr. OST: Well, basically there is a sense of gloom that has pervaded for the whole last year, ever since a year ago today with the imposition of martial law. For a long time -- and, still it's a matter of people looking forward to something to look forward to -- feeling that what has happened has basically prevented them once again from determining their own fate, prevented them from really engaging upon a new kind of activity; basically preventing them from the kind of independent social movement that had arisen beforehand. There has been -- it's been very difficult in terms of material supplies. The food situation is still quite bad. In some areas in the countryside it's very difficult to get bread because only one store sells bread, and then the trucks often break down and can't deliver it there. In the cities, just as I left last week, there were long lines for soap, and soap is rationed. One gets one bar of soap every two months. But basically the suffering has been in terms -- has been a psychological one.

MacNEIL: Is that going to change with the easing of petty restrictions on domestic travel, on telephones, on mails and things like that? Is the average Pole just going to feel a little bit freer?

Mr. OST: Certainly. This is something that does make life easier. As they have made these restrictions, it does get easier to live there. However, the basic gloom pervades in the sense that basically what they do keep talking about -- and workers above all keep saying that what we need above all is not simply economic improvement, but basically the right once again to speak out freely, to organize independently, to basically be a control on the government, which, in the form that it exists now, really tolerates no social control whatsoever.

MacNEIL: Can the people you were able to circulate among and talk to -- do you think that the year of martial law has broken their resistance?

Mr. OST: No, it certainly has not broken their resistance. One has to keep in mind that Poland is a country who feels they have suffered for well over 200 years. There's a, you may know, traditional historical conception of Poland as the Christ of nations, the nation which has suffered unjustly -- perhaps not so much for the sins of others as to prevent others from suffering, too. Now there's a sense that the resistance has to go on simply in other forms, and this is something that now, with -- clearly, there won't be the possibility of open resistance, as there was before, but now there is more and more talk of organizing independently, organizing educational networks, lectures independently in people's houses, organizing an independent communication network which the government won't be able to shut off with the flick of a switch like they did a year ago.

MacNEIL: Is the average Pole aware of the U.S. and Western sanctions and the U.S. attitudes to these things? And what do they make of them if they are?

Mr. OST: Well, the average Pole is quite aware of that and in general supports it very much, even though they do feel that basically the sanctions are still -- cannot have much of an effect simply because the government basically doesn't care what the economic situation of the people is. This was an infamous comment of the press spokesmen Jerzy Urban last year at the imposition of sanctions, saying that, "We don't have to worry; the government will always have enough to eat." The sanctions are, I think, well taken. It's also a fact that Ronald Reagan is a very popular personality in Poland for -- I think it's without doubt that he enjoys the greatest popularity anywhere in the world inside of Poland, even though the Reagan they support is perhaps more a symbolic Reagan than a real Reagan; that is, the Reagan that demands the end to martial law, the restoration of Solidarity, and that tells the Russians that their system is evil. This is something, that the Poles don't look so much at the complex array of domestic and foreign policies that the President represents, but feel that what the represents in relation to Poland is something that they like very much.

MacNEIL: Well, thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: Another view of it now from Leopold Unger, a long-time Polish newspaper editor, now a columnist for the Belgian newspaper Le Soir, and the International Herald Tribune. He is currently on leave as a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars here in Washington. Mr. Unger, Solidarity leaders today used the word "cosmetic" to describe today's actions in Warsaw.What would you use to describe them?

LEOPOLD UNGER: I would be very careful. It is not cosmetic in human terms because in human terms you will have probably more than 300 people going back for Christmas home with their families. This is not cosmetic.

LEHRER: People who are now in prison?

Mr. UNGER: Who are now interned.

LEHRER: Interned, right.

Mr. UNGER: In camps. So, in political terms it's purely cosmetic, of course. I mean, even though the word cosmetic I, you know, I saw some big American TV stars after a cosmetic operation, and they looked very, very well, much better than before the operation. I watched yesterday General Jaruzelski on the Polish TV here on the news, and it was absolutely the same Jaruzelski I saw one, two, five and 10 years ago. So this is a cosmetic operation visible results. Both. You know, it is the same establishment. The same people. It is cosmetic because the army didn't go back to barracks. The army is still in power.

LEHRER: And are they still going to be in power after December 31st?

Mr. UNGER: Sure. I mean, you know, they change the justification of the existence of the military constantly. It was the administrator of the martial law. Now that the force is supposed to be an element of a smooth, quiet transition toward the normal state of affairs. As a matter of fact, the same people, the same council, the same institutions had the power -- was all the power, of course. Now Jaruzelski kept and still keeps all his functions. He is the first secretary of the Party and Prime Minister and minister of defense and finally president of the military council.

LEHRER: So there's no change there.

Mr. UNGER: No. Martial law was not lifted. That's really important. Martial law will be suspended December 31st.Now, what does that mean, suspend martial law? First of all, the term is very uncorrect because it doesn't exist in the Polish constitution. But what is much more important that it gives me a sort of psychological blackmail. He will be able at any moment to say, "Because the Poles behaved badly, because they don't want to obey, we will arrange to do the martial law." In other terms, you have a permanent, 24-hours -- 24 a day -- a possibility of blackmail. This --

LEHRER: Permanent threat is hanging there, in other words?

Mr. UNGER: Absolutely. Sure. Even in legal terms. The threat existed always, because don't forget that the coup was something very illegal already.

LEHRER: When Jaruzelski first took over, right?

Mr. UNGER: Sure.

LEHRER: Well, let me ask you this. Why do you think Jaruzelski even did what he did?

Mr. UNGER: Oh, there are some important points; some are domestic, some are foreign. The first, I would say, you know, he presented in his speech the day before -- it was yesterday.

LEHRER: It way yesterday.

Mr. UNGER: Sunday. He presented the achievements of the year of martial law as a victory. In fact it was a confession of fail. Now can you imagine a Communist country, because that's something very important. We are not in Chile. We are in Poland. After 37 years of a Communist regime, of Communist rule, an absolutely monopolistic rule in Poland, you have the army which is absolutely unable to give back the power to the civilians. Also in ideological Marxist of Marxian terms, it is extremely iconoclastic, you know. The armed power in a Communist country is against all Marxist ideology. It's a sort of red Bonaparte, and they keep him, one year later, one year after he took absolutely, or the army took absolutely all powers in Poland. So that's a failure. Now, why should they do it? For several reasons. First of all, he wanted to prevent the possibility of the rebirth of the underground Solidarity. He wanted to make a gesture. Second point, he wanted to make a gesture toward the church in Poland. As you remember --

LEHRER: Keep them quiet, right.

Mr. UNGER: There is a sort of package deal done between the church and the power in terms of, "We will try to assure that the Poles will not be too violent," and so on. "On the other hand, you promise to free Walesa, the Pope's announcement of the Pope's visit --"

LEHRER: Due to come in July.

Mr. UNGER: And finally they promised probably a little more. I think that they promised to lift the martial law. They suspend it, but that's a gesture. But the most important thing, I think, is directed to us here in the West, and that's where the cosmetic word -- the word cosmetic is absolutely justified. You know, the West doesn't exist in Polish terms. There are some Western countries. There are some Western countries, especially in Europe, less the United States, which probably wait for a good pretext to go back to business as usual. Not only because of Poland, because Poland is finally a small country and a very bad trade partner. But because of what we call or used to call detente. Now, to go back to detente -- 1970 to 1980 -- you have to eliminate the Polish obstacle.

LEHRER: And so he's trying to do it by this gesture? Hope he gets --

Mr. UNGER: He is trying to give to some Western governments --

LEHRER: An excuse to back off.

Mr. UNGER: -- a pretext, an excuse.

LEHRER: I see. All right, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Finally, another view of the Polish situation from an expert on working life in Eastern Europe. He is Charles Gati, who teaches political science at Union College at Schenectady, New York, and is a senior fellow at Columbia University's Research Institute on International Change. He's the co-editor of a recent book on blue-collar workers in Eastern Europe and author of an article in the current Foreign Affairs magazine, "Polish Futures, Western Options." Mr. Gati, what does the lifting of martial law mean to you?

CHARLES GATI: Well, it means two things. One is that the Jaruzelski government is not yet ready to move towards national reconciliation. But on the other hand it implies that it would like to do that in the future.

MacNEIL: I see. What is your comment on the charge that it is largely a cosmetic gesture and aimed chiefly at Western consumption, perhaps especially, as the Solidarity leaders argued in Brussels today, Western bankers' consumption?

Mr. GATI: Well, I think it aims at Western Europe more than the United States. I think for the time being they've given up on the United States.But I don't agree that this is primarily directed at Western Europe. I think it is an effort to co-opt as many people in Poland to make them believe that if they only behave themselves, national reconciliation would take place.

MacNEIL: Do you believe that it is enough to get the Polish people to go back to work and to start helping towards economic recovery? The Polish economy is in a very bad shape.

Mr. GATI: Yes, indeed. No, I don't believe that this is enough, and besides, it's not a question of what actual measures the Jaruzelski government takes at this particular time, because it takes a long time for the Polish people to accept the proposition that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all.So I don't expect this kind of reconciliation or making people to go back and really work to take place for another year or two or more.

MacNEIL: Where do you think Jaruzelski -- from what you're able to divine, looking at what he's doing -- would like to take the Polish economy? In what direction?

Mr. GATI: Well, there's no question in my mind what he would like to do. He would like to follow the example of Hungary, where some decentralization has taken place and other, what we call economic reform, and the country is doing reasonably well.

MacNEIL: And some free market activity permitted.

Mr. GATI: Well, of course the ownership remains in the hands of the state, but there is some competition, some price fluctuation is allowed. And some incentives are offered for good work, which is extraordinarily important. Now, I believe this is what Jaruzelski would like to do. The question is whether he can actually do it, and I believe he has to do far more than he has done so far or what he plans to do by the end of this year to accomplish that goal.

MacNEIL: In order to get the Polish people to go with him and cooperate and do the work that's necessary.

Mr. GATI: Exactly.

MacNEIL: Do you regard this gesture today as enough to justify some easing of Western restrictions, or, in the case of the U.S., sanctions on Poland?

Mr. GATI: No, I don't. No, I don't. Not much has been done so far. And you have keep in mind that the West really has not done very much.Stopping the Polish airline from landing in New York is not exactly a serious sanction. Or denying fishing rights to Poland in some areas is not going to make Poland bankrupt. In short, American actions or Western actions have been symbolic rather than punitive, and these symbolic measures ought to be retained for quite some time to come.

MacNEIL: What about the willingness of Western bankers to renegotiate Poland's debt on which they have not been able to pay this past year the interest they owe?

Mr. GATI: Well, they are going to continue to renegotiate, or at least to try to renegotiate, but the attitude of Poland is not a particularly good one. For example, a leading Polish official told me privately that Poland's $26-billion debt is really not a Polish problem; it's a Western problem. In short, they're rather cynical about it.So it really doesn't depend entirely on the Western bankers what happens next. It happens that it depends on Poland.

MacNEIL: Well, think you. Jim?

LEHRER: Yes, gentlemen, let's go through some of these summary points quickly.On Solidarity, to begin with, Mr. Ost, is Solidarity dead for all practical purposes, or is your reading that it's still a force to be reckoned with in Poland?

Mr. OST: I think Solidarity, as the union that existed between August, '80, and December, 1981, is in fact dead. I don't expect it to be revived in any form precisely because so much has changed in the year that it has been outlawed now. Also, it's very important that, really, the whole leadership of Solidarity has not had a chance in this whole year to meet with each other to discuss with each other. In fact, their points of view now radically diverge, as can be seen with Mr. Walesa's recent appearance and his public statements, which many in the underground and in the West take great distance from.

LEHRER: I see. Well, Mr. Unger, what's your view of Solidarity and also the role of Walesa from this point on?

Mr. UNGER: Well, speaking about Solidarity, we should distinguish, I think, the semantic from the politics. In legal terms the name of Solidarity as a name of a trade union, of a particular organization is dead, of course, because it was de-legalized by a legal parliament --

LEHRER: Right, but I'm talking about, right, as a force, though.

Mr. UNGER: But as a force, you can't de-legalize a force; you can't de-legalize an idea. You can't suppress simply a movement of 50 million people. The whole Polish nation was behind this idea. Now, you can destroy a man, and I am really pessimistic as far as Walesa is concerned because he in a terrible situation and a very difficult position. From one side he is limited by the law and by the martial law and by what remains of the martial law.On the other hand, he is, of course, very careful not to give birth to some unjustified hopes. So it's extremely -- and that is one of the reasons, I guess, that they let him go finally. It's in order to put him in a very risky situation. They want to compromise. But even if they succeeded, as you have seen probably the sex movie about Walesa that is by the Polish authorities, all this is destinated to discredit the man --

LEHRER: I haven't seen it; I've read about it, right.

Mr. UNGER: Nobody saw it as a matter of fact. But so they wanted to discredit him. And even if they succeed to destory a man or some people, they will never destroy the idea. It's impossible.

LEHRER: Let me ask Mr. Gati about that. What's your view on the future of Solidarity? Does it have one?

Mr. GATI: Oh, yes, I think it has a future in the sense that the Polish working class is not about to give in. And so the spirit of Solidarity lives on and will live on for a long, long time to come. But as an institution right now it certainly does not exist nor is it likely to be resurrected.

LEHRER: I see.

Mr. GATI: The interesting question is what position Mr. Walesa will take in the weeks and months to come.

LEHRER: And you think that's important?You think he could affect things depending on what position he has?

Mr. GATI: Oh, yes, I do. He can make perhaps a little difference, even at the present time. I'm sure that the government is most anxious to obtain some hint of coopearation from him, just as the government has successfully obtained some cooperation from the Catholic church, and particularly Archbishop Glemp.

LEHRER: Mr. Ost, going back to a point Mr. Gati made a moment ago, do you think that the average Pole will read from this announcement today that it's a move toward reconciliation, that that's what Jaruzelski has in mind?

Mr. OST: No, unfortunately. I mean, I know quite well that nobody really reads this move as a serious attempt towards reconciliation, precisely because the government reserves for itself extraordinary powers. It is said that it will even -- some of the interned ans arrested will remain interned and arrested. Basically there is great skepticism, and until a lot more is done Jaruzelski will not be reaping any political benefits of this move.

LEHRER: Mr. Unger, finally, I would assume you would agree with Mr. Gati that this action that Jaruzelski has taken does not justify the United States or anybody else lifting any kind of sanctions, correct?

Mr. UNGER: Sure. Certainly not. I mean, about the sanctions. Western Europe is less present, of course, on this. The United States, yes. Now, the sanctions were very hard for Poland, and especially the limitation of credits. The limitation of credits implied the limitation -- and the stop of importation of some very sensitive, very important products that are basic for the Polish economy because the Polish economy during last 10 years was based on Western technology.

LEHRER: So from your point of view the United States should keep them on. Nothing happened in the last 24 hours to change --

Mr. UNGER: Absolutely. But the problem is as far as the West is concerned is not to do what not to do. And in my eyes, What I already heard from Europe and yesterday night is that we are going once again to a sort of mystification and manipulation of reality today, and this is not a good base for policy.

LEHRER: All right, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: Yes, Mr. Unger, thank you for joining us in Washington; Mr. Ost and Professor Gati in New York. Good night, Jim.

MacNEIL: Good night, Robin.

MacNEIL: That's all for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.