The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Tuesday the death toll rose to more than 500 as the fighting intensified in El Salvador. Hard line Czechoslovakia removed travel restrictions for its citizens, and the U.S. Navy ordered a halt to all operations pending a safety review. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: After the News Summary, we examine the heavy fighting in El Salvador with a backgrounder by Charles Krause, then Francisco Altschul for the opposition and the Salvadoran Ambassador Miguel Salaverria. We have an update report from East Germany, then a News Maker interview with the father of Poland's Solidarity movement, Lech Walesa. We close with a Roger Rosenblatt essay about Woody Allen's latest movie.NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: Heavy fighting continued in El Salvador as leftist rebels claimed to hold parts of the country and the government rejected those claims. Thousands of people fled from several neighborhoods in the capital, San Salvador, to escape the fighting. Many areas were put under 24 hour curfew by the army, as jets and helicopters rocketed rebel positions in four districts of the city. At least 500 people were reported dead in the fighting which erupted with a new rebel offensive on Saturday. One resident told the Associated Press that the rebels were advancing on the military. Civilian casualties were reported to be high. A rebel communique declared parts of the territory liberated territory in which people's governments would be established. The government claimed the army was in full control. We'll have more on this story after the News Summary. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Another barrier fell in another Communist country today. Czechoslovakia announced changes in its travel rules. Premier Latislov Adamek told the parliament that Czech citizens will no longer need exit permits to travel outside the country. Czechoslovakia has a hard line Communist regime that has thus far resisted all attempts at Perestroika type reforms. The news was welcomed in Washington by Pres. Bush.

PRES. BUSH: I would welcome this as a very encouraging first step. The people of Czechoslovakia have the same aspirations for freedom that others have. And I would expect we'd see further changes there just as we have seen in Poland, Hungary, and in the German Democratic Republic, so it's a very good and encouraging step. And this is a further manifestation Europe will some day be whole and free. Gorbachev talks about a common home. We talk about a Europe whole and free and it's a most exciting time.

MR. MacNeil: East Germany's new prime minister, Hans Mudro, said today the Berlin Wall must remain to keep AIDS, drugs, and other Western problems out of East Germany. Mudro also promised to build a coalition government, but he didn't say whether opposition parties would be included. Meanwhile, it was reported today that the East German government is considering whether to open a new crossing through the Brandenburg Gate, the most famous symbol of the division of the city. The West German government today promised the equivalent of a marshall plan, massive economic aid for East German recovery, but said that depended on political and economic reforms in the East. In Moscow, Soviet Leader Gorbachev praised the reforms already underway in Eastern Europe but said no one should claima victory in the cold war. Mr. Gorbachev said a more realistic analysis of the changes and work towards a balance of interest should replace such claims. Meanwhile in Poland, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl laid a wreath and stood in silent tribute at the Death Wall in the former Auschwitz Concentration Camp, where the Nazis killed some 4 million people, most of them Jews. He spent 90 minutes at Auschwitz and the nearby Berkanou Death Camp.

MR. LEHRER: The Senate passed a $738 million aid bill for Poland and Hungary today. The legislation is a compromise between Democrats who proposed more and Republicans who wanted less. Both proposals were more than the 455 million asked for by Pres. Bush. The passage came while Polish leader Lech Walesa was in Washington. At an AFL-CIO convention, he said Poland will need U.S. experience, knowledge and modern technologies to build its new non-Communist economy.

LECH WALESA: [Speaking through Interpreter] The world is awaiting your signal. It's watching you. Do not the world and us wait any longer. I am addressing my appeal to you, to our friends who have proved to be the most reliable in the most difficult of times, help Poland make her way to the shore of freedom.

MR. LEHRER: We will have a News Maker Interview with Lech Walesa after the News Summary.

MR. MacNeil: The U.S. Navy today announced a service wide 48 hour safety stand down. A statement from the Navy's secretary and the chief of naval operations said all operations would be suspended at some point in the next three days. The action follows a fire today aboard the USS Inchon which was undergoing maintenance in Norfolk, Virginia. At least 31 people were reported injured. It was the 7th serious accident since October 29th. The accidents have caused seven deaths. Today's order involves every Navy ship, plane and facility. They're required to cease normal operations in order to review safety procedures.

MR. LEHRER: Two economic figures out today showed the U.S. economy slowing down. The government said retail sales fell 1 percent in October, the largest drop in 2 1/2 years, and the Federal Reserve Board reported industrial production fell .7 percent in October, the steepest decline in 3 1/2 years, a sharp drop in car sales following the expiration of summer rebates depressed retail sales.

MR. MacNeil: In Namibia, the group that fought South African rule for 27 years won a solid majority in last week's election. But the group known as SWAPO fell short of the 2/3 vote needed to run the country by itself. The election was a major step in a plan to make Namibia an independent nation. We have a report narrated by Roderick of Worldwide Television News.

MR. PRATT: SWAPO supporters were elated, taking to the streets to celebrate the end of South African rule and the start of a new era in Namibia.

CITIZEN: SWAPO.

CITIZEN: I feel great. I'm really feeling great.

CITIZEN: The government will change.

MR. PRATT: Despite the revelry, the final results denied SWAPO the 2/3 majority necessary to put through its own constitutional plans without compromise. Yet for SWAPO leader, Sam Nayoma, the hard fought victory was sweet.

LEADER: Very happy and after we score the final victory.

MR. PRATT: Were you worried?

LEADER: Never.

MR. PRATT: Official results ensured Nayoma a seat in the 72 seat assembly that will attempt to write a constitution for a country that has its first taste of independence for 74 years. The elections took place over five days and at great expense to the UN, which has officially declared the poll free and fair.

MR. LEHRER: And that's it for the News Summary. Now it's on to the fighting in El Salvador [Focus - State of Siege], an update from East Berlin [Update - East Germany], Poland's Lech Walesa [News Maker - Solidarnosc] and a Roger Rosenblatt essay [Crime Pays?]. FOCUS - STATE OF SIEGE

MR. MacNeil: First tonight we focus on the savage fighting that has cost hundred of lives in El Salvador since Saturday. As we reported, the military is battling leftist rebels in the suburbs of the capital with jets and helicopters while the rebels claimed to have liberated parts of the country. We'll hear from both sides after a backgrounder from Correspondent Charles Krause who has documented the civil war for the Newshour over the years.

MR. KRAUSE: The latest fighting is the most impressive show of force by the rebels since El Salvador's civil war began almost 10 years ago. So far the offensive has centered on San Salvador, the capital and El Salvador's largest city. Almost 500 soldiers, civilians and guerrillas have been reported killed since Saturday night when the offensive began. El Salvador is one of five countries in Central America. After the Sandinista revolution in Nicaragua 10 years ago, El Salvador became the major test of U.S. resolve to stop the spread of Marxist insurgencies throughout the region. Beginning in 1981, the Reagan administration accused Nicaragua, Cuba and the Soviet Union of supporting the revolution in El Salvador by providing arms and training to the guerrillas. The Reagan administration in turn began providing the army in El Salvador with training and with more than a billion dollars worth of arms and ammunition. During most of that period Jose Napoleon Duarte was the Reagan administration's man in San Salvador, a Christian democrat and staunch anti-Communist. Duarte was first elected president of El Salvador in 1984. He quickly became a favorite at the White House and in Washington. But despite support from the United States, Duarte was unable to reform or to revive El Salvador's war shattered economy, nor could he reach agreement with the guerrillas to stop the fighting. As a result, the war intensified. So far, over 70,000 Salvadorans, men, women and children, have been killed. Duarte himself was diagnosed himself last year as having terminal cancer. With Duarte unable to run again, his Christian democrats suffered a humiliating defeat at the polls in March. Alfredo Cristiani was elected El Salvador's next president. A conservative businessman, Cristiani's Arena Party has long been accused of having ties to El Salvador's right wing death squad. Nonetheless, Cristiani has tried to project a moderate image since his election.

ALFREDO CRISTIANI: [March 21] Because of the perception that there is in the United States and other countries, that's the message that we have asked, do not prejudge our government but rather judge them by the acts after it starts.

MR. KRAUSE: Since Cristiani's inauguration in June, there's been an up surge in death squad activity aimed at rebel sympathizers. But at the same time Cristiani began calling for peace talks with the guerrillas. They agreed in September and the two sides have met twice in Mexico and again in Costa Rica. But three weeks ago the rebels broke off the talks. The reason, they blamed the government for the bombing of a labor union office in San Salvador where 8 union officials were killed. Today thousands of Salvadorans fled from their homes as the fighting continued. But there were conflicting claims. The rebels said they've liberated 8 of El Salvador's 14 provinces. But the government and the U.S. embassy said the guerrillas were failing to meet their military and political objectives.

MR. MacNeil: Now the government and the opposition positions. Since they will not talk to each other directly, we are forced to do separate interviews. First we have Francisco Altschul, a spokesman in Washington for the political arm of the Farabundo Martin National Liberation Front. Mr. Altschul, why has your side begun this offensive now?

FRANCISCO ALTSCHUL, Opposition Spokesman: The purpose of this offensive is to open seriously the table of negotiations. This is a military effort combined also with political and diplomatic initiatives to bring the government of El Salvador seriously into the process of negotiations, because that has not been the case in the past meetings that we have held.

MR. MacNeil: The U.S. and the Salvadoran government say that the nature of this offensive means that you must have planned it and got your material and everything ready for a long time, and that you were actually getting ready to do it while you were sitting with them in negotiations.

MR. ALTSCHUL: It is obvious that an action of this sort demands a lot of planning, you are correct, but I would stress the following point, the same effort and planning has been put in this was put before in for example the proposal that the FMLN put forth for achieving a definitive end of hostilities. The similar offenses like these ones were actually put on the back burner precisely to create and facilitate the process of peace talks. Unfortunately, there was never any reciprocity, real reciprocity, on the part of the government, and this is a measure that has been taken out of that.

MR. MacNeil: How do you expect this fighting to force the government to negotiate? I mean, do you think you can defeat the government forces?

MR. ALTSCHUL: It is a possibility I think that part of your report showed that, but I would like to stress the following again. It is an effort to open serious negotiations. There are people who have been saying that why negotiate with the FMLN when it's weak, it's just a matter of time and then they would have to surrender.

MR. MacNeil: So this is to show that you're strong?

MR. ALTSCHUL: It's not only to show that the FMLN strong. It is also to make those who oppose a negotiation try to realize and understand and accept that the most rational way out to the conflict in El Salvador is through negotiation.

MR. MacNeil: We had a phone call this afternoon from the FMLN general command with a communique, whatever you call it, calling for a general uprising of the population. But it also said this, peace is only possible "by driving from power those who have looked to make gains from the war". Now that sounds more like looking for a military than negotiations.

FRANCISCO ALTSCHUL: Well, as you know, both things go hand in hand usually and that's what history has shown. I would say what's happening at the moment and as a product of the indiscriminate bombing that the Salvadorian air force has been doing in highly populated areas, there is a, the population is outraged and they are demanding for this to happen. On the other hand, there are basic needs that the government is not being able to carry on for the population like water, and electricity, evacuation of wounded. This also is a call to organize the civilian population in order to self defend themselves.

MR. MacNeil: I see. Are you talking about government bombing of civilians in this recent fighting in the last 2 or 3 days?

MR.ALTSCHUL: Yes, yes. It was presented in the clip we saw before. Up to this moment, there continues to be bombings in densely populated areas in the capital city as well as San Miguel, the second largest city in the country.

MR. MacNeil: But the government says that you, your fighters have hidden themselves among the civilian population, particularly the poor civilians, some of whom have sided with the FMLN, and that the only way to fight your fighters is to attack civilians.

MR. ALTSCHUL: Well I think that that is not an acceptable excuse. There are lots of wars and even in the war it is accepted and understood that civilians per se are not a military target. Unfortunately that has been the way in which the government has responded normally. For example, a couple of weeks ago, after a military attack by the FMLN on the general command of the army headquarters, the army responded by bombing a labor union. This is not possible and it's not acceptable.

MR. MacNeil: The army and the government have denied any connection with that bombing.

MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, they have denied so many things before that I would question their simple denial.

MR. MacNeil: What is the basis for your claim that you have liberated parts of the country and are going to set up your own governments in them, because the government denies that?

MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, the government is saying at this moment that they have full control of the situation in San Salvador. I would say when you have to resort to airplanes and helicopters bombing, when you have to resort to a 24 hour curfew as you stated before, when you have to resort to all these measures, how can one claim that they have control of the situation?

MR. MacNeil: But what about other parts of the country? You're claiming to control parts of eight of the provinces. Where are those parts and how can you prove that you control them?

MR. ALTSCHUL: Well, there has been this military effort, has not only been in San Salvador, it has been in other important cities of the country, I mentioned before San Miguel, also Chalatanango, San Francisco Votera, Ucalatang, Sakateluka. So we're talking of the main cities throughout the country. In those areas, the FMLN fighters maintain their positions within those cities in spite of the efforts that the army has done to try to dislodge them.

MR. MacNeil: The United States says, and Pres. Bush repeated it today, that really behind this is Nicaragua and Cuba, your uprising. In fact, the President said he is going to particularly ask Mr. Gorbachev to try and cut off military supplies which ultimately reach you. What is your response to that?

MR. ALTSCHUL: This has been an old claim of not only of this administration but of the past U.S. administration particularly. You must remember that in 1981 there was the famous white paper which was supposed to prove this thing. But it was nobody else than the Wall Street Journal who sort of rejected that as not accurate. The fact is that until now there has not been any smoking gun as you say that would clearly prove that that is the case, that any government is providing directly arms to the FMLN.

MR. MacNeil: And you deny it?

MR. ALTSCHUL: Yes.

MR. MacNeil: What does the FMLN hope the United States will do in this present situation?

MR. ALTSCHUL: We hope that and everybody hopes in that sense that the U.S. will reassess its traditional policy of trying to achieve a military victory. It is that to understand that the best solution for everybody involved is to achieve a political negotiated settlement. The United States administration given the amount of money that provides to the Salvadoran government has an enormous leverage. We hope that it will use its leverage to bring about and possibilitate a negotiated settlement.

MR. MacNeil: Well, Mr. Altschul, thanks very much for joining us.

MR. ALTSCHUL: Thanks to you, sir.

MR. MacNeil: In another studio in Washington is the Ambassador of El Salvador, and the representative of the government, Miguel Salaverria. Mr. Ambassador, what is the military situation tonight as you understand it?

MIGUEL SALAVERRIA, Ambassador, El Salvador: First of all, Mr. MacNeil, I'd like to tell you the position of the government is that we regret and we condemn the fact that the FMLN has chosen to wage war instead of continuing the peace talks that we were carrying on. Especially we condemn the fact that they have brought war to the cities where they have endangered the lives of innocent people and we have seen the results. If talking peace for them is putting in danger and killing all these amounts of people, it doesn't make sense to me. The situation in El Salvador right now is under control of the government, under control of an army, the professional army that has been trained to defend democracy and trained even to fight to defend democracy.

MR. MacNeil: But the rebels do control some parts of the city, is that right?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: Definitely. They control houses of innocent civilian people where they have entered and they're keeping hostages, innocent people inside. That makes it difficult for the army to fight against them. The air force is not doing anything at the moment because they cannot fight a war inside little houses where they have innocent people as hostages.

MR. MacNeil: But they have been rocketing and using propeller driven planes, rocket firing planes up till now they have been in the city.

AMB. SALAVERRIA: Not in the city, sir. That has been denied and has been denied by our authorities and by the observers that are in El Salvador, including American observers.

MR. MacNeil: American newsmen there have reported that helicopter gunships for instance were used yesterday and there were rockets fired into, we just repeated it ourselves, from for instance Reuters and the Associated Press.

AMB. SALAVERRIA: I have here reports that I received just a half hour ago, and they have not used rockets against cities or houses. Maybe they have used them against running guerrillas, guerrillas that were getting out of the city, but in the open no.

MR. MacNeil: You heard Mr. Altschul claim that the FMLN controls a number of places in other cities. What is your response to that?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: It is the same case. They control houses of innocent people. They have endangered the lives of these people. And what the army is doing right now, the government wants to do is clear this problem with the least, the least hurting of the civilian people. We have a policy of conviction and possibly the use of tear gas is what is being considered, but not at all, we see the case of considering rockets or heavy artillery against houses where we know that there are good people inside.

MR. MacNeil: Are you confident that your army can defeat this uprising, this offensive?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: Definitely. The army we have is a professional army, as I have said. It has been trained for years to confront situations like this.

MR. MacNeil: Let's come back to the claim by the FMLN that you were not serious, the government was not serious in the negotiations, and that that's partly while they broke them off, aswell as their claim that the government and the army were behind the bombing of the union headquarters which as I said earlier you have denied. The thing that you were not serious about the negotiations, they say that at these talks when they presented a list of demands for negotiation, you simply required their surrender. Would you respond to that?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: Yes, sir, with pleasure. I think that the government has been very clear from the very first day that we want peace and we want to negotiate peace. But this peace has to be negotiated inside the law and the constitution of El Salvador. The claims of the FMLN that changes to the constitution should be made, that the Supreme Court should be dismantled, that the army should be reduced, these are things that maybe you can do in a democratic system, when you win a position through the votes but not through force. They are not in the position to change the mind of the population of El Salvador who have chosen to go by democracy, who have gone to elections five times. We have drawn a new constitution. We have two presidents, one from an opposing party handed the presidency to another opposing party president. That is full democracy. We are exercising it every day and we cannot allow that a bunch of terrorists come over and try to change our way of living. This is not allowed anywhere.

MR. MacNeil: In other words, you're saying that the rebel demands as their conditions for a cease-fire military and judicial reforms, resumption of agrarian reforms that were suspended, and the agreement to submit constitutional reforms to the legislature, those are not negotiable by you as part of conditions for a cease-fire, is that correct?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: None of these facts are true. We are not going back on anything, especially the agrarian reform is stronger than ever. This new government in 3 months has handed 11,000 new titles to people. Agrarian reform in the past years did not give the land to the people. Now we're going further. The owners will be the campasinos and that will make some immediately better citizens.

MR. MacNeil: I was just quoting from the list of their demands. In other words, what you said to me earlier is that you can't change these things like judicial reform and the military, reduce the military, and constitutional reforms, as a condition for a cease-fire, that's correct, is it?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: A judicial reform has been presented in the congress and has been discussed. Now what kind of a reform do they want? When they met in Mexico, I think a great advance was made, Mr. MacNeil, for the first time we agreed on procedure and an agenda. In this agenda there was a point that said let's discuss the secession of hostilities. And the meeting in Costa Rica was for that purpose alone. And when they came to Costa Rica, they brought all these lists of new demands that didn't have to do at all with the secession of hostilities.

MR. MacNeil: Just so I'm clear about this, your government's position is they must disband or they must put down their arms in order to have cease-fire, is that correct?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: That is not the way we have put it, sir. We have put it in the way that they help reunite the civilian population and contribute to strengthen our democratic system. They can become a party and convince the people by words not by bullets of how the country should be run.

MR. MacNeil: Can I ask you finally -- we have just under a minute -- what do you hope the United States will do? The Bush administration said the other day U.S. intervention was not being considered and the U.S. forces are not permitted to join your forces and operations. What do you hope Washington will do?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: I think Washington and the United States have been a great factor in reconstructing what those people have been destroying for 10 years. They have been destroying our electricity system. With that, they leave the people without water, they leave our hospitals without electricity, even the food of the people goes to spoil in the refrigerator, so they're not helping the people. Transportation has been destroyed. We have no longer a - -

MR. MacNeil: We have a second or so. Could you tell me quickly what you hope this government will do, Washington?

AMB. SALAVERRIA: I think that the confidence that Congress has shown is a great sign of what the United States can do to protect democracy. And I think the moral support that we're getting from the United States is more than anything.

MR. MacNeil: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador very much. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Still to come on the Newshour tonight, an East Berlin update, Lech Walesa, and a Roger Rosenblatt essay. UPDATE - EAST GERMANY

MR. LEHRER: East Germany is next. The emphasis in Berlin continues to be government reform and more breaks in the Berlin Wall. We have an update from Nik Gowing of Britain's Independent Television News.

MR. GOWING: Army trucks began arriving in the camp alongside the Brandenburg Gate in the middle of the afternoon carrying troops in combat fatigues. There had been speculation all day that the new East German Prime Minister Hans Mudro who was elected by parliament last night wants to talk about reopening the East-West divide at the Brandenburg Gate. The gate is the most sensitive landmark in Berlin. Under the post war four power agreement, it was assigned to the Soviet sector. Under the longstanding status quo, it is at edge of the Berlin sector which the East German state calls its national capital. Great hopes are invested in the prospect of there being some kind of relatively free passage between the arches of the Brandenburg Gate, because the gate itself is the symbol of Berlin, the symbol of a divided city. It is also the heart of the city as well. As rumors spread and interest intensified, the East German authorities sought to crush the speculation. Policemen and soldiers were ordered to tell the growing crowd of East Germans, tourists and Western cameramen that there was no plan to open the gate today. But what one Western military attache described to me as unusual activity left most convinced that another significant East German policy switch was indeed underway. Meanwhile, at the Council of Ministers Building, the new prime minister, Hans Mudro, was in conclave with advisers working through his potential ministerial appointments. The government will be an as yet unspecified coalition of the Communist Party and small parties. Tonight Gunther Maleuda, the new parliamentary president who's also head of the small democratic peasants party underlined expectations of the small parties which are now trying to distance themselves from their once close Communist allies.

DR. GUNTHER MALEUDA, Pres., East German Parliament: [Speaking through Interpreter] We want and will take more responsibility in the running of the government and we want to nominate some of their ministers. We have had our first talks already and we are pushing our demands seriously.

MR. GOWING: Meanwhile, there's word that Communist Party hatchets are already being swung in offices and factories across East Germany. The Communist Party newspaper Neues Deutschland has long been quietly scorned by all but party loyalists for being a propaganda publication more interested in promoting the images of the new discredited Honecker era than reporting news objectively. Today a senior Politburo reformer, Gunther Schawbowski, visited the paper reportedly to wield the ax and purge the paper of leading figures who cannot adapt to the new spirit of frankness. As the party's mouthpiece, Neues Deutschland must set the tone for the extraordinary party congress planned for December. How important is your congress going to be in December?

MR. SCHABOWSKI: It will be very important for the future of the party.

MR. GOWING: And behind the scenes, Communist Party sources like Reiner Oschmann, an editor on Neues Deutschland, report heated debate and a complete break with the past.

REINER OSCHMANN, Neues Deutschland: Everybody in the party is in a position where he is required to get up and show the fight in quotation marks, which I don't mean in physical terms of course, but you know just to show the -- put it that way. And that's certainly what we are in business to do or are trying to do. It will be in some cases and at some stage desperately difficult to do. I've got no illusions whatsoever. But I think we can do it for the good of the country.

MR. GOWING: Even those in opposition are having to change fast too. For years mass gatherings in the Protestant churches were the furthest most East Germans dared to go to stage protests, and then using language and activities so coded that their impact was blunted. Now church sources admit they are floundering in search of a new purpose. They say their quasi political activity has been taken over by the new street protests of new opposition groups like New Forum..

RUDI PAHNKE, Evangelical Church Youth Commission: [Speaking through interpreter] What the opposition groups represent is what the church has been spelling out for two years. The church now has to find a new role in the reform movement. The church will not become depoliticized. The Protestant church will remain conscious of its political responsibility.

MR. GOWING: Today it was announced that British Foreign Sec. Douglas Herd will visit West Berlin on Thursday. Whether he'll be one of the first to see a Brandenburg Gate opened to relatively free East-West passage remains to be seen. NEWS MAKER - SOLIDARNOSC

MR. LEHRER: We go now to a News Maker interview with Lech Walesa, the hero and architect of Poland's democratic revolution. He arrived in the United States last night for a 7 day visit, his first ever to the United States. Pres. Bush awarded him the medal of freedom. Today he addressed a convention of AFL-CIO. Tomorrow he speaks to a joint session of Congress. I talked to him late this afternoon at his Washington hotel. There was simultaneous translation. Mr. Walesa, welcome. Some are saying what is happening in East Berlin and elsewhere in Eastern Europe had its real beginnings with Solidarity in Poland. Do you see that same connection?

LECH WALESA: [Speaking through Interpreter] Of course I do, with the exception that this has been a somewhat abnormal situation, the situation that has resulted in the things going on right now. That situation, that abnormal situation, has to be resolved and brought back to normalcy.

MR. LEHRER: What's normalcy?

MR. WALESA: What was abnormal was the division of the country, the countries in Europe. And it is not normal for Europe to be disintegrated. Europe is one and whole and that's the way it should be, however, it should be remembered that certain experiences of the past need to be remembered about. In the past, we had to pay a high price, a high price for that reconnection. Poland has something to say something about that. Other countries also have something to say on this issue. Let's remember that one nation in Europe disappeared because of that situation and the blood, the price that we paid, is an obligation for us. It calls back. It calls for a payment. There should be no more dangers of this kind in Europe. The world is going on and we should do everything to help the world to progress. We should do everything to reunite Europe, but not the way Hitler or Stalin wanted it. We should do it better, we can do it better if all of Europe plugs in, if America joins us to help, we will find a resolution, a resolution that will be useful and appropriate to all.

MR. LEHRER: Do you feel a kinship with those young people who were on the wall there in Berlin the other night and with all of the people of East Germany?

MR. WALESA: Of course, I think that many people are following in my foot steps. They want to catch up with me. They want to get a Nobel award. They're jumping over fences the way I did in 1980.

MR. LEHRER: Is this what you had in mind in 1980? Did you have any idea this was going to happen? Did you want this to happen?

MR. WALESA: I was thinking of a single Europe. I was perhaps an incorrigible romanticist. I thought that that wasn't the right way for Europe to be. I felt that something needed to be. I thought in those days in a simpler way. Later a number of more complex elements and components of politics and economy came into my thinking. I realized that that wasn't that simple, yet possible, and what's going on right now has started much sooner, much earlier. I talked with appropriate people. I talk these days with people who are responsible just as I did in those days and I asked them the question whether it was possible to resolve that problem. There are many who are not prepared for that resolution. It's important to take time to reflect now and decide so as not to commit a mistake by finding a hasty resolution. A reunited nation of 80 million would be a powerful nation in Europe. It can when reunited serve Europe well and perhaps this is our joint need.

MR. LEHRER: Some people are very concerned about a reunification of Germany per se? Are you one of those?

MR. WALESA: No, no, I'm not concerned in that way. I see a German complex, see Europe as a complex, as one integrated Europe. Primarily Europe should be integrated economically so that there are no unnecessary borders. If we solve local political regional problems and we fail to resolve the economic problems, we will commit a terrible mistake. We will simply have put off in time the destabilization of Europe. We shouldn't do that. We cannot do that in the name of that blood that was shed in the defense of peace in Europe.

MR. LEHRER: Was there a time, when was there a time, if there was a time, during your struggle in Poland with Solidarity, that you felt there was a real possibility that the Polish government or even the Soviet government might unleash military force against you and your brothers and sisters?

MR. WALESA: Certainly a possibility like this does exist. But it becomes less and less profitable. We proved that in 1981 at the point where martial law was imposed. I told those people who came to arrest me that it was Solidarity that won and that will win, that we will meet at some point in the future, that our roads will cross and we did, and we only lost 10 unnecessary years.

MR. LEHRER: Why do you believe Gen. Jaruzelski and the government finally gave in, opened the government to you, and opened the process to you and to Solidarity?

MR. WALESA: Of course I have to believe because I'm a practicing Catholic believer. And I have to trust because my faith tells me so. I'm not a fanatic by any means, I'm not a fanatic. Second, I know that Poles can result even the most difficult issues of their own if they are not interrupted. In those days the climate was not appropriate and there was no inclination for reform and we believed that the extern situation got in our way.

MR. LEHRER: Do you believe that Mikhail Gorbachev had anything to do with the decision of the Polish government to make this kind of major decision?

MR. WALESA: Reforms in my country and in the entire Eastern Bloc are not reversible. No force is capable of reversing those reforms. But that's not because this is the view of Mr. Gorbachev or Solidarity or Mr. Walesa, because our reforms result from the nature of the -- in which we live, the computers, the technological development, the overall progress. There is simply no way to reverse that, therefore, the only possibility that exists is the future victory. The only problems are the price and the time that is needed to accomplish that reform. Mr. Gorbachev does understand that and he's attempting to keep up with the spirit of our times, yet those who failed to do that end up like Mr. Honecker did.

MR. LEHRER: Pres. Bush, as you may know, has been criticized for not catching the spirit of the times as far as what's been happening in Eastern Europe and in Poland. What's your feeling about that?

MR. WALESA: It's not possible to evaluate rapidly and precisely who is right on that issue, what is possible at this time and which point reserve must be kept. I believe that Pres. Bush certainly sees to the interest of this beautiful country. He is a patriot and he certainly cares about his own country. Of course I am a Pole and I am trying to get more for Poland, but I have to give due credit where needed. I believe that there is some misunderstanding on that issue too. Pres. Bush can facilitate, can encourage, but he cannot make a particular country happen and resolve that country's problems. He told us himself during his visit in Poland, help yourselves and the world will help you. It's a very wise statement, telling us to put our house in order, show us your programs and show us that it's worthwhile. As far as I'm concerned, I, the President, have to take care of the American taxpayer. That's my understanding of the President, and it seems to me that his actions are very wise, although let me repeat that as a Pole I would like to ask for more. However, Pres. Bush has done a lot for Poland, and we're not talking about money here. We're talking about the politics. I owe him certainly a lot even when he was the vice president. Nobody else was ready at that time to directly support Solidarity, and yet the President did it, the vice president at that time. He's a wise and brave politician. This is my evaluation, and I envy you that you have good people like these, and certainly there may be various evaluations of his activities.

MR. LEHRER: What do you want the United States to do now to help you and your country?

MR. WALESA: Of course, I have some proposals, and I have come with those proposals, however I certainly can only promote those proposals and try to prove to evidence how much good business can be arranged with Poland, I can only demonstrate that. I end each meeting with U.S. businessmen by asking whether they doubt, whether anybody doubts that there are great opportunities, possibilities for business in Eastern Europe. The problem there is in the lack, the scarcity of materials and production, infrastructure. It's very difficult to organize business activity there but nobody can prove to me that there are terrific opportunities for business and business for those people who know how to run it, and you are the people who can do it. There is total certainty that you can achieve it.

MR. LEHRER: Are you interested in sometime being the president of Poland?

MR. WALESA: No, I had an opportunity like that in the past and in the initial vote I was already elected, chosen for the prime minister. I changed that in a democratic manner because there is a major job for me to accomplish, and I cannot accept high practice. Second I am primarily a free man and I was free and I actually felt the freest when I was an electrician. I would throw my pliers one way, my screw drivers another, slam the door and go home. Nobody had any doubts about me, any objections to me. That was freedom for me. But today as you can certainly see, there are a lot of problems facing me and the higher up I move, the more enslaved I become by the problems, by the limitations, and I simply do not fit into this kind of enslavement. So to put it briefly, I just want to do a job, a big job, just as that of the president, but I don't want the honors of the office.

MR. LEHRER: In other words, you feel like your Poland's No. 1 person and yet without the trappings of offices, is that what you're saying, in other words, you feel the responsibility for Poland?

MR. WALESA: No. I want to keep in the last place because in keeping with my fait who are the last will become the first and vice versa. I want to be the smallest, the most modest, the humblest one, the serving one, someone used the term anti-hero.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Walesa, thank you very much. Again, welcome to America. ESSAY - CRIME PAYS?

MR. MacNeil: Finally tonight our Tuesday essay. Roger Rosenblatt has some thoughts sparked by two recent movies.

MR. ROSENBLATT: In Woody Allen's latest movie "Crimes and Misdemeanors", he sets up and studies the question, does the world have moral structure? In the movie, crimes and misdemeanors go unpunished, even unrecognized, and there is not much of a difference between the two kinds of offenses. A foolish deception, no less than a murder by hire, is allowed to take place under the eye of a seemingly uncaring God. There are advocates for moral structure in the story, but they appear as voices in the wilderness. [MOVIE SCENE]

MR. ROSENBLATT: Is there a moral structure to the world? The question is such a grandiose cliche that Woody Allen himself would have ridiculed it to love and death in his youth. As one grows older, however, even the grandiose cliches resume an original puzzlement. How is it in the most extravagant evil of the 20th century that Adolf Hitler was allowed to exterminate 6 million Jews and others? Was God's eye watching that? How was it that Paul Pot and the Khmers Rouge were permitted to erect their hills of skulls in Cambodia, that the Lebanese militia could get away with the slaughter of Palestinians at Sabara and Chatilla, mass starvation in Ethiopia, des paracidos in Argentina? If God really saw all that and let it happen, what sort of God are we dealing with? But the problem doesn't have to get as big as Hitler or the Khmers Rouge. In fact, the problem grows more acute when crimes go undetected, the pettycriminals who stock one's ordinary life, they get away with murder too, little murders in the office, in the home, corruptions, lies, ethical violations, deceptions, cheatings. You try to go about your business honorably, kindly, but your eye does not avoid the scoundrels. Why does God's? Religions teach people to be patient with God as God is said to be patient with people, referring to God's ways as mysterious, thus beyond our measure of right and wrong. It is a useful thing to believe. The absence of justice is hard to comprehend if the world really has a moral structure. Prayer in a sense is always prayer for moral structure, a devout argument for moral structure in a world that appears to allow immoral acts to go unnoticed. There is another worthwhile movie out these days called "The Bear", no Woody Allen sophisticated theology or conversations in this movie, almost no conversation at all. The movie is a clean cut parable about live and let live. Man shoots bear. An orphaned bear cub comes to comfort the bear and lick his wounded shoulder. Bear gets better, hunts the hunter but does not retaliate when given the chance. Man learns magnanimity. Later bear cub is attacked by a puma. Bear comforts bear cub and licks his bleeding face, the end. In the movie of "The Bear", a moral structure prevails which is heartening to see, but hard to believe. Allen's "Crimes and Misdemeanors is regrettably more believable. Maybe a moral structure is always built on the assertion of the unbelievable over the believable, an act of faith against all odds and evidence. It is a long life's work. Meanwhile, as both movies ask in their way, how do we learn to lick each other's wounds? RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again the major stories of this Tuesday, the death toll rose to more than 500 in new fighting in El Salvador's civil war, hard line Czechoslovakia removed travel restrictions on its citizens, and the U.S. Navy announced it would suspend all operations for 48 hours to review safety procedures. The order followed 7 serious Naval accidents in recent weeks. And finally a program note. Tomorrow night we will have a News Maker interview with Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the Newshour tonight and we'll be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.