The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; 2122; Walter Mondale

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. Thirty-three days ago Walter Mondale became the forty-second Vice President of the United States. Earlier today, Jim Lehrer and I talked with the Vice President in his office in the Executive Office Building next door to the White House.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Vice President, the whole world knows now that the CIA has been paying substantial sums of money to King Hussein of Jordan for many years. My question is, when did you find out about it?

WALTER MONDALE: Well, I`m not in a position to either confirm or deny that story. There have been stories in the newspaper the last few days about it.

LEHRER: The stories aren`t true?

MONDALE: I`m not in a position to confirm or deny them.

MacNEIL: Mr. Kirbo said today that, applauding the President`s gestures, the President had cut off aid to King Hussein. Would that not tend to confirm the story?

MONDALE: I`m just not in a position to talk about it.

LEHRER: Well, look, I understand that. I hate to throw quotes back at people, but, you know, when President Carter was running in the primaries up in New Hampshire, he said that if the CIA ever makes a mistake, I`ll be the one as President to call a press conference to tell you and the American people, this is what happened; these are the people who violated the law, and this is the punishment I recommend. And now, I understand what you`re saying, and the statement from the White House the other night was that they could not confirm or deny. Do these things jibe?

MONDALE: What we`re doing, in a broader context, we`re new to government, is viewing the whole operation of our intelligence services around the world. We have a new Director, we are reviewing all collection methods and all so-called policies affecting covert actions, and developing policies and guidelines which will assure that our intelligence services act fully consistent with the law and the values of the American people. This is something the President feels very deeply about, I do, too -- as you know, I spent nearly two years on the Select Committee on Intelligence, which dealt with the full range of activities on the part of our Intelligence community, going back over really thirty or forty years. And I`m actively involved in this review, and we can assure the American people that our policies and our approaches will be consistent with the standards that we`ve announced.

LEHRER: Well, as you say, you were on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and you know an awful lot about this kind of thing. Are you, now that you`re Vice President, and there again you`re not confirming or denying the King Hussein thing, but are you a little uneasy at this point that there may be still other things out there that the CIA is doing or has done that you don`t know about?

MONDALE: No, I`m not. We are fully informed of the activities of the CIA; the CIA is not hiding things from the Executive or from the Congress. You know, we passed new laws, some over the past two years, requiring a full report to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and also there are certain other committees that deal with funding of intelligence activities, foreign relations committees and the rest, and there have been very profound reforms undertaken by Executive order -- there well may be some more through legislative charter -- to make certain that the activities of our intelligence community are consistent with the law and the values of the American people. Now, you can`t have an intelligence agency that collects secret information and do it publicly -- I mean, that`s one of the great conundrums, you might say, of a free Democratic society -- to be able to collect information and occasionally, and I mean only occasionally, pursue certain kinds of covert actions. But to do so in the context of a Democratic society -- it`s about the toughest issue you can imagine. And it`s something I`ve worried about for a long time -- I`ve spent a good deal of my recent years working on that problem. I`ve been consulting closely with the President, with the new Director of Central Intelligence, and we`ve tried to restructure the whole community so that the top levels of political leadership in the government is responsible for the acts of the community so that the Congress is informed of all the necessary information that they must have, and so, to the fullest extent, consistent with the functions of the intelligence community, the public can be apprised of its activities. But there will always be certain kinds of functions that they undertake that they can`t undertake if it has to be public.

LEHRER: And the Hussein thing, you think, falls into that category?

MONDALE: I`m just not in a position to talk about that.

MacNEIL: Can I ask you a hypothetical question about the Hussein things if payments were made to people like Hussein, is it safe to assume that you and President Carter would disapprove of that sort of thing?

MONDALE: Well, as I say, we`re working on a whole range of guidelines now, and I think many of those guidelines will be made public.

MacNEIL: Fresh guidelines will be forthcoming.

MONDALE: We`re working out a whole review of them.

MacNEIL: When will they be?

MONDALE: I don`t know. We`re working on them now.

MacNEIL: I see.

LEHRER: Is it a fair statement -- you seem very troubled about this whole thing.

MONDALE: I`ve always been troubled, but at the same time there have been very profound changes in the intelligence community, its actions, the role of covert actions, the responsiveness of the community to the Executive, but also the responsiveness of the community to the Congress which is fundamentally changed, the way in which that community operates. And the public ought to be aware, and it`s very difficult in a Democratic society, that those abuses which were revealed in our report, such as attempted assassinations, paramilitary efforts, many of which occurred without the knowledge of the Congress, some of which occurred in direct contravention of the law, and many of which offended American sensibilities. Those things have stopped, and there`s been a profound change, and the public ought to know that. The trouble is that you can`t be as specific as I would like to be. In other words, we don`t live in the best of all worlds we live in difficult times. We have to know what our potential enemies might be up to, we have to know their potential military capacities and intentions we have to know many things in order to defend this nation, and it involves intelligence it involves collection methods it involves a whole range of things many of which are quite classified, matter of fact, some of which are as sensitive as anything can be. And how you reconcile these activities that can only succeed in the defense of our nation secretly in a society, which by definition, must be public, is one of the toughest issues we have to face. The only thing I can say is there`s nothing I take more seriously or the President takes more seriously than both aspects of that problem. Defense of the nation and a responsiveness to the laws and the regulations and the values of the American people.

MacNEIL: You say that it`s changed a lot.

MONDALE: Yes, there`s no question.

MacNEIL: There`s a lot of things that were being done are no longer being done. Without getting specific, which you don`t want to be, obviously, have things been stopped in the CIA, since Mr. Carter became President?

MONDALE: Some things have been stopped, but I don`t want to exaggerate that. My problem with answering your question is that I can`t be specific.

MacNEIL: I understand that.

MONDALE: Since the last two and one-half years particularly, there have been very, very profound changes, as I`ve mentioned, and there are not and have not been activities going on around the world which are of the nature disclosed in our report that so troubled the American people, and properly so. For example, George Bush was an excellent director; he tried very hard to change things, and he did. There are many very able, decent people in the CIA and the other intelligence agencies that are trying their best to make certain that this nation is protected -- that we do so consistently with our values and our laws. Mr. Colby, the former Director, came up on the Hill and disclosed.-- as a matter of fact, probably no time in the history of the world has a society asked that its secret activities be disclosed as fully and as candidly and as publicly as was disclosed under the directorship of Mr. Colby. And now under our new Director, Mr. Turner, I`m sure he`ll be confirmed, I`ve had long talks with him -- we understand how troubling this is to the American people -he understands how troubling this is to the American people and the American people must believe us. We understand the difficulty of this, and we`re exceedingly mindful of their concerns -- practically everything, as a matter of fact, for all practical purposes, everything is disclosed to responsible committees on the Hill; it`s not just something that`s held within the Executive Branch.

MacNEIL: Mr. Vice President, can we ask you about how your manner of working is . .

MONDALE: I`d be glad to talk just about anything else.

MacNEIL: About anything else. All right.

MONDALE: (Laughs)

MacNEIL: There`s a long tradition of asking Vice Presidents what they actually do.

MONDALE: Yeah.

MacNEIL: When you first came here, you were called Chief of Staff or Chief Staffperson, then that was changed. Why was that?

MONDALE: Well, I never liked that term because I didn`t intend to become Chief of Staff or Chief Staffperson is the word he used. What my role has been really has been as a general advisor and a troubleshooter and I`m very, very pleased with my role, it`s exactly what I wanted to do and what the President agreed I should do. I`m in on all the intelligence briefings; I`m a member of the National Security Council; I participate in the Economic Policy groups I participate with his Means for the Joint Leadership; I get his schedule every day, and I`m invited in on all meetings that I want-to attend. For example, we just finished or will finish this afternoon the meetings with Mr. Trudeau. I sat in on all the meetings with Mr. Portillo; I`ll sit in on all the Callahan meetings; I participated in the budget process. I`ve just been permitted, I think almost unprecedented (laughs) talked to my friend Humphrey -- he says it is unprecedented. He told me when I left for Europe, he said, "My goodness, it was quite a sight for me to watch on television. Here you were, leaving in daytime; Johnson always made me leave at midnight."

MacNEIL/LEHRER: (Laugh)

MONDALE: But, I mean, it`s really been unprecedented, and I`m really thrilled by it.

MacNEIL: In what manner is it actually unprecedented? Is it just that you -- I mean other Vice Presidents have been able to go to various of these meetings. Is it just that you go to all of them?

MONDALE: Well, Humphrey said that he never got to go to a developed country.

MacNEIL/LEHRER: (Laugh)

MONDALE: They always had to have a low per capita income in order to go there. For example, the first mission I had, which I think is unprecedented for a Vice President, going to the major allies and opening up our new relationship, discussing sensitive issues, laying the groundwork for the summit and many, many other concerns. It`s unique in terms of the flow of information, and I`m literally privy to the information that the President is. Some days I`ll spend five hours with him, sometimes more.

LEHRER: On a formal basis. Informally or . . .

MONDALE: Informally. I just come in and out of the office when I want to talk about something or-sit in on meetings and we`ll sit down. For example, we have weekly lunch where we might spend an hour or two hours going over the whole range of issues that affect us and we just discuss it. And I`ve been involved working with Frank Moore and Congressional relations, and I have an understanding with the President -- you might say, troubleshooting. I go and get involved with issues that I think are terribly important. The issue that we began with -- the role of the Intelligence Committees -something that I feel very deeply about, I`ve been involved in for years; we`ve got to solve that.

LEHRER: You probably know more about it than anybody in the White House.

MONDALE: That`s what I tell everybody. You know (laughs), I lack some credibility on that.

MacNEIL: Why did you choose not to have a specific assignment? You`ve made some point there.

MONDALE: Well, I did it because I spent a lot of time talking to Humphrey and Rockefeller and to their staffs, and I read some of the history of the Vice Presidency, and one of the things I came to believe is that a Vice President can get bogged down on, not necessarily trivial, details -- they can be important -- but there are often things that other people can do and often do better than a Vice President. But the one thing that I can do for my President is to be his advisor on crucial, broad issues affecting government; to be the bearer of bad news. I`ve read, matter of fact, I wrote a book on it called The Accountability of Power and you may recall a book called The Twilight of the Presidency by George Reedy, in which he repeats what most White House staffers have found true over many Presidencies, and that is that if we`re not careful, a President can be screened from the bad news that he needs to know, and I don`t have any bureaucracy to defend. My future in public life really depends upon the success of the Carter Presidency, and I believe I`m in a unique position, because I`m in what I call the loop where I`m getting all the information, where I can talk to Cabinet officers, where I can hear from the Hill and know what the problems are there, and I`m elected nationwide. I have people calling me and talking to me all the time. I meet foreign leaders, and so on. I`m in a position where if I work at it and prepare properly, I can sometimes have time to look into problems and ponder issues. And, as I`ve told the President, sometimes people will tell em things they won`t tell you, and he-tries to get people to be candid with him. In fact, he`s a unique man in that sense; he almost enjoys criticism and blunt comments. But I`ve been with people who are, you know, mad, and they go into that Oval Office, and they sound like they`re totally thrilled with everything. Something happens when they go through that door, and the President`s aware of that. I try to be his advisor and to bring in the news as it is unvarnished and I haven`t been thrown out yet.

LEHRER: Let`s talk about your role as troubleshooter with Congress. What bad news are you giving him now about Congress? Obviously there`s some trouble up there.

MONDALE: As he said in his first news conference, we got off to a start in which we made some mistakes; everybody realized that and probably they`re inevitable for a new President -- particularly one who hasn`t had experience on the Hill. Most past Presidents have come off the Hill. I think one of Gov. Carter`s great strengths when he ran for President was that he wasn`t (laughs) from Washington. But there`re also certain things that we have to learn fresh, and one is relations with the Hill. But I think they`re getting much better. I think Frank Moore has got command of this, and I`m doing what I can to help, working with Frank, and I believe it`s getting much, much better.

LEHRER: Do you detect a lack of understanding on the part of the President and his close people as to what the real role of the Legislative body is? That`s been suggested.

MONDALE: No. I don`t think there`s any problem at all. As a matter of fact, the President has complete respect for the Congress. I just came from our legislative breakfasts, for example. We`re getting along fine. We talked all the issues facing the Congress the Reorganization Act; we feel deeply about the Energy Reorganization Proposal; the energy proposals that are coming up; some of the nominations that are pending. And I think the relations between the President and the Legislative Branch are now on a very, very sound basis. But the problem is, and I`ve been around quite a while on the Hill -- they can never be perfect because there`s always a certain amount of tension between the Executive and Legislative Branches. But I think they`re as good as they can be now.

LEHRER: Reading what Kirbo said in the Post this morning, Yes, Mr. Carter may have to go over the heads of Congress. Does that make you gulp a little bit as the troubleshooter with Congress?

MONDALE: No, I think you do both, you work with Congress, but what Frank Moore and others who work on the Hill and I are trying to do is to eliminate those frustrations and differences that aren`t necessary because we fail to check with somebody or work with somebody or consult with somebody when we should of. That sort of thing we don`t want to have happen -- but it`s inevitable that a President will propose something that some people in Congress won`t agree with -- we understand that; it`s perfectly proper, understood and, indeed, expected by the Congress that the President has a right in case of a basic disagreement to talk to the American people about what he`d like to have done just the way we expect a Senator, Congressman to go home to his constituents to talk about things that they might disagree with also.

MacNEIL: But what the people have been commenting on, though, is the lack of going through the usual motions of consultation in the way that the Congress seems to like. For instance, Congressman Udall said on the cancellation of the eighteen water projects that he`d learned about it from a newsman, and he was slightly upset that he`d learned about it from a newsman.

MONDALE: Well, if it happened that way, I`m sorry about it. Sometimes you can`t get to everyone, but I know that there was an effort which Frank Moore directed, which went for about three days.

MacNEIL: Before the announcement.

MONDALE: In which they tried to call everyone on that. They might not have gotten to Mo Udall; apparently they didn`t and that`s too bad because that`s the sort of thing we want to avoid.

MacNEIL: Is the President going to have to back down on that water thing?

MONDALE: He`s reviewing. He set up an inner agency group representative of all the agencies that deal with these water groups. We`ll be hearing from the people on the Hill, no doubt. But, as you know, this is an issue that is of long-standing difficulty. And the President feels very strongly that we shouldn`t have projects that are not economically justified, which are unsafe, and there are many, many projects which are supported and are in the President`s budget. There are others which he feels do not comply with that criteria. Now this decision is not set in concrete; that is, we`re going to review all of them. We`ve just been in office a month; each project is different and should be judged on its own merit. We`re going to listen to the people on the Hill as to their judgments, to the Governors, to the people concerned about these matters, and if we`re wrong in some of those judgments, we`ll change them.

LEHRER: You don`t feel, then, that the problems between the Congress and the President are unmendable?

MONDALE: Not only aren`t they unmendable, I think we`ve gone a long way to really establish a very good relationship.

LEHRER: But there seem to be so many things: the Sorensen thing; the feud over Warnke; the water thing -- they just -- one after another.

MONDALE: It is true the Sorensen nomination was not successful, but the Warnke nomination will be. I predict we`ll work out the water problems. You know, those are policy differences, and there`s just bound to be those kind of differences. I`ve been in the Senate twelve years, and there`s always these kinds of criticism. Some of them are inevitable. What we want to do is prevent the kinds that are avoidable.

MacNEIL: Would you say that Mr. Carter is very skilled at the politics of symbolism? It`s a word that`s been used a lot in the last month.

MONDALE: A President has certain legal powers, and then he has certain responsibilities of a different nature to lead and symbolize where the country wants to go and certain issues and to express American values. And that`s a very subtle area, and I think he`s sensitive to that aspect of his job. When he walked in that parade, and I told the President, "I don`t want to upstage you, I think I`ll ride -- I wouldn`t want to take this away from you," so I did ride till I got to the corner, and then I walked the last half block. I didn`t realize, but that`s a very important symbol to this country, because we`ve had closed government; we`ve had this feeling on the part of the American people, often justified, that we can hear a President, but he can`t hear us, it`s kind of a closed-in, protected . . . I mean that limousine is more like a heavy tank than a car, as you know, and the President decided to take his family and walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. It`s symbolic in one sense; on the other hand, the American people liked that. They liked that approach because they think it`s not just symbolism, but an attitude. Similarly, there is substance to that. For example, he`s promised these bi-weekly news conferences. That`s a great way for the American people to see and hear their President in action, to listen to his answers on the key questions. The open mike thing that he`s going to do where the American citizens are going to . . . Obviously we`ve got 220 million Americans, and they can`t all get on the line and talk to the President, but the approach -- where for two hours, American citizens, without pre-selection will be on the phone with the President asking whatever they want to ask, and his answer recorded to the American people. I think Americans like that, and getting rid of the limousines, and cutting down the White House staff by a third.

MacNeil: Can this go too far?

MONDALE: It can go too far but none of that`s gone too far. In other words, if we`re going to ask other agencies to cut their budgets, to see what they can do to avoid waste, a President who`s expanding his own staff while he`s telling others to do differently will be seen as a hypocrite. The President began by shrinking his own staff by a third: I mean, it`s really dramatic. And similarly with energy, for example, I was in the Cabinet meeting the other day where the President said, "Now look, we`re going to ask Americans to get into smaller cars; we`re going to ask them to turn down their thermostats; we`re going ask them to see the many different ways in their own lives in which they can reduce energy usuage. Let us begin by doing this ourselves. I want to see these thermostats down, and I want to see government employees buying smaller cars and bidding on smaller cars; get the kind of cars we`re asking Americans to drive in." I think that is more than just symbolism.

MaCNEIL: Mr. Vice President, thank you. I believe you have to go back and see the President. Thank you very much.

LEHRER: Thank you, Mr. Vice President.

MONDALE: Thank you. I think I`d better.