The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Thank you. Good evening here are today's main headline stories. Terrorists hijacked a TWA jet carrying 104 Americans from Athens to Rome and threatened to kill them if she-eyed Muslim prisoners were not released by Israel. South African forces raided the adjoining state of Botswana, the U.S. protested and recalled its ambassador.

A cheese linked to the deaths of 28 people has been removed from stores in Los Angeles. Jim Lara is away tonight and Judy Woodruff is in Washington, Judy. After the news summary, we have two focus sections and a newsmaker interview on the news hour. First, an expert on terrorism gives us his assessment of that TWA hijacking. When an extended look at the state of teaching in this country, with the former U.S. Secretary of Education, the head of the Oklahoma school system and a woman who says teaching is headed for a crisis. And finally, a newsmaker interview with the Prime Minister of India Rajiv Gandhi. The McNeil-Lera news hour is funded by AT&T, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and this station and other public television stations. One person is reportedly dead tonight in a hijacking nightmare that is still underway in the Middle East.

A TWA airliner carrying 153 passengers, including 104 Americans, was hijacked by Shiite Muslim terrorists after it took off from the airport in Athens' Greece earlier today. The terrorists, who carried a grenade and pistols, forced the plane to land at Beirut for refueling and let 19 passengers go. Then they commanded it to fly to Algiers, where they let another 22 captives go free. Next they flew back to Beirut, where just about an hour ago they were permitted to land again, only after threatening to kill some of the passengers. While on the ground in Beirut, the hijackers did reportedly shoot and kill one passenger, whose body was shoved out a door and left lying on the runway. One report quotes a hijacker as saying, the victim was a US marine, but that has not been confirmed. The horrible drama began earlier in the day after the plane took off from Athens. Here is some of the exchange between the pilot and the tower in Beirut as the plane approached the first time.

He has pulled a hand grenade set and he is ready to blow up the aircraft if he has to. We must, I repeat, we must land at Beirut, we must land at Beirut, no alternative. It's up to you to go on, it's up to you to go on, I can't give you permission because my responsibility didn't give me permission for you to land, they said they airport is closed and they are standing for us. What do you advise the hijackers to hold for 10 minutes? Can you hold for 10 minutes to find a solution for your problem? GWA 847. That is a negative, we understand, we understand, but we must land at Beirut and the hijacker isn't it? Thank you. Okay, understand that you are landing without permission, thank you. Be advised we have no choice, we must land, I'll get there, land, land, quiet, the land

quiet, it's up to you sir, as you know the airport is not in my hand. I understand, can you get the wind at Beirut, it's up to you. The plane did land at Beirut that first time and the tense communication continued between the cockpit and the tower. This time in an urgent appeal for refueling. Thank you very much, everyone, it's 47, I'm threatening to tow a passenger, I'm threatening to tow a passenger, it must need fuel, we must get fuel. I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying, I'm trying to tow a tow, go grab a tow for you, I'm trying to tow a tow, all right, you are pointing. They are beating the passenger, they are beating the passenger, they are threatening to kill it now, they are threatening to kill it now, we want the fuel now, immediately. It looks like it's there, I am doing five minutes, five minutes, that's the most, with fuel

now, five minutes, now we're going to kill passengers, you will open the car and throw the kill with passengers out onto the ramp, immediately, immediately, we are doing our bench. He says if he doesn't get fuel, it's three minutes, he's going to kill the American, he has tied up here in the cockpit. I'm doing five minutes, I'm doing five minutes, I'm doing five minutes, if you are for you, I'm doing five minutes, I'm doing five minutes, if you're actually for you. Everything was on the ground in Beirut for two and a half hours, during that time the hijackers released a number of women and two children who were put aboard another plane for Cyprus. Coming out of the plane in Beirut, the passengers slid down the emergency chute near the

nose, then were taken to a bus to ride to the airport terminal, what they talked about was fear. After it was refueled, the plane left Beirut and flew to Algiers, the pilot said he was running out of fuel and he was given permission to land. At the airport in Algiers, there was a period of negotiation and the American ambassador was called to the scene. No details about what happened had been made public, but more passengers were permitted to leave the plane. Those who disembarked in Algiers included 18 American women, one American child and three other people whose nationalities weren't given. Like those who left the plane in Beirut, the passengers seemed to be shaken by the experience and worried about those still left aboard.

Israel had no immediate comments on the demands of the hijackers. Israel is holding about 700 Lebanese, mostly Shiites in prison. In Athens, police arrested a 21-year-old Arab and said he had admitted that he and two others planned the hijacking. In Washington, President Reagan said he's doing everything it can be done to get the passengers released. State Department spokesman Bernard Kabs said the U.S. was always willing to talk about the safety of Americans, but added it is not our policy to give in to terrorist demands. In our lead focus section, right after this news summary, an expert view of security for U.S. flights and the options now open to the administration, Judy. There was more bloodshed in Beirut today to suicide bombers crashed a car filled with explosives into a Lebanese army position, killing 23 people and wounding 36. The attack was made against a mainly Shiite Muslim brigade, which is deployed in West Beirut. An anonymous caller to Beirut's Christian radio claimed responsibility for the attack

on behalf of the Sunni Muslim-barabitun militia, which is traditionally allied with Palestinian forces in Lebanon. Meanwhile in Israel, the military command announced that 21 Finnish soldiers captured last Friday would be released tomorrow. The soldiers, part of the United Nations peacekeeping force, were taken hostage by the South Lebanon army, a militia group, in retaliation for the Shiite Muslim militia on malls capture of their men the day before. In United States ambassador to South Africa was recalled temporarily to Washington today in protest against a South African attack on black nationalist guerrilla bases in neighboring Botswana. Under cover of night, motorized South African commando units swept into the capital of Gabbaroni, at least 12 people were killed in fighting at houses occupied by members of the African National Congress. Here's a report from Michael Burke of the BBC. South African commando synchronized their attack blasting into ten houses at one o'clock

this morning. Pretoria says they were centers for ANC guerrillas operating against South Africa. If so, many double-disfamily homes as well, women and children were amongst the casualties. The commando stormed into this house, spraying all the rooms with gunfire and trapping two men and a woman in the bedrooms. The woman hid in a cupboard but was killed by bullets fired through the door. They were members of the ANC. The son of Dr. Joseph Mengele said today that he will deliver evidence to a West German prosecutor of his father's life in Brazil. The Roth-Mengele son of the Fugitive Nazi War Criminal claims that his father died six years ago. Meanwhile, the police chief in St. Polo said that anthropologists examining the bones of a body said to be mangolas have concluded the age of the skeleton is in the same age bracket as mangolas. Another member of the team trying to determine the identity of the remains found in a St. Polo grave said that examiners had concluded the bones were those of a Caucasian man.

In Los Angeles, officials of the California Health Department say 28 people have died after eating contaminated cheese. The manufacturer, Jalisco Mexican products closed his plant and recalled all but to all of two brands of cheese from stores in California, Arizona and Texas. Here's a report from Marica Gerard of LA News, an independent service. Owners of Jalisco Mexican products today say they have taken 99% of the suspect cheese off of supermarket shelves. We have voluntarily removed these two cheeses as well as our entire line of dairy products from all markets. This recall will remain in effect until we are certain where the problem lies and can guarantee the public that our cheese is safe. As of this morning, we have no information as to the possible sources of this bacteria. We are cooperating fully with federal, state and county authorities and will continue

to do so. Los Angeles County health authorities are now inspecting the Jalisco plant to determine just how the bacteria got into the cheese. Thus far, 28 people have reportedly died from exposure to bacteria found in the contaminated cheese. Among the dead are 15 newborn are still born infants. Hospitals in the Los Angeles County area first began reporting cases at the Listeria monocytotonous infection in February, but it wasn't until early last month that county health authorities were notified of the unusually high number of cases. Only yesterday was a contamination definitely linked to the Jalisco brand cheese. The Listeria symptoms range from a mild flu-like illness to fever, abdominal pain, headache and vomiting. In a courtroom just outside Chicago today, a judge convicted three former plant executives of murder. After an unprecedented trial stemming from the death of a worker who inhaled cyanide on the job.

The three had been charged after the February 1983 death of a Polish immigrant who worked at the plant, where cyanide was used to recover silver from used X-ray film. 61-year-old Stefan Golab was cited in an autopsy report as having died of acute cyanide poisoning. Prosecutors had charged the defendants were aware that plant conditions posed a strong risk to workers. The men convicted could face 20 to 40 years in prison. Our first focus section is on the major news story of the day, the hijacking of a TWA plane in the Middle East. Joining us to try to shed some light on how this happened and to piece together events there is an expert on terrorism, Neil Livingston. He is president of the Washington-based Institute on Terrorism and Subnational Conflict. Mr. Livingston has written two books on terrorism and America's ability to combat it. Mr. Livingston, first of all, there's a report that the United States has sent an

anti-terrorist military unit to the scene. Can you shed any light on this for us? Well, I'm sure in terms of normal prudence on these things that we are prepared to run through all the options that might be available. One of those options will be to retake the plane by force. There is a rule of thumb when you're dealing with this kind of crisis that after they start killing hostages, that's the time to go in if we have the assets and the people nearby. You have to trade that off against any hope that you might have of being able to extricate more hostages from the plane through negotiation before you take any precipitous action. Now that we have one passenger reportedly killed, what would you expect the American unit to try to do? Well, Beirut's a particularly well situated airport because it's close to the ocean and there's really no one in charge there, there's nothing to prevent them from coming in. And I think that our authorities, if they felt that there was nothing further to be gained by negotiation and of course their primary concern is going to be the safety of the hostages

or if they felt that that plane would keep on going to some place like, say, Tehran, where it would be more out of the way, more out of our reach, that they might decide if they had the commandos close at hand to go in and try to recapture that plane the same way the Israelis did it in Tabby or the German GS-G9 unit did a Mogadishu. You mentioned the Israelis. There was one report I heard this evening that there was a French reporter in Beirut saying that there were strong rumors floating around that there were Israeli commandos near the vicinity of the airport. Well, this is in a section of the world where the Israelis still have a great deal of influence and they're very close at hand, if you will, although most of Lebanon is under Syrian control today, we just don't have enough information to make that kind of judgment, but I would not be surprised if we had to go in, if we didn't have some Israeli help. We're quite frankly, I'm sure that we're in very close touch with the Syrian government right now to enlist their good offices.

These terrorists got on the plane in Athens, Greece. How were they able to get through security there, do you think? Well, Athens has notoriously bad security. It's one of quite a number of Mediterranean countries, particularly in Europe, which don't have very good security. We had a whole string of problems related to the environment and the climate in Athens in terms of the government that they have in their willingness to harbor terrorists. Their unwillingness to really monitor their activities. And presumably, according to reports that we have, the terrorists wrapped a pistol, a 9-millimeter pistol and several grenades in some kind of masking device and put it through the security x-ray machine. We don't have all the facts yet, but I have to say from both my knowledge of the Athens airport and of others in the region that that is one of the easiest airports in the Mediterranean for terrorists to get on and secret weapons on board.

How much more of this sort of thing can we, as Americans expect? Well, I think we can expect a lot more, because even if we successfully resolve this particular crisis, all it means is that the terrorists will come back and hit us again. That's been the pattern of terrorist attacks in recent years. These particular terrorists, even D, they are Shiite terrorists as they claim to be or as we have reports that suggest they are. They want the freedom for many of their fellow Shiites who are being imprisoned in Kuwait and in Israel. And there's nothing to suggest that they won't just keep on hitting us until we either capitulate or we can respond in kind to the point that they are not able to strike back at us. What advice would you give to Americans planning to travel in Europe over the next few months? Well, I don't want to be unduly alarmless. I think many European countries are as safe as the United States, but I think some consideration must be given by travelers who go to some of the notoriously bad airports.

Athens, and you want to name any other place? Well, I'd rather not, but I would say that most are relocated in the southern Mediterranean. And the United States government is taking steps right now to prevail upon those countries to upgrade their security. And we have to hope that they will listen to the voice of reason and do so. If not, I think the United States should consider embargoing U.S. air traffic to those countries during this very strong tourist season, which don't have adequate security standards. Neil Livingston, we thank you for joining us. Thank you. Robin? Still to come on tonight's news hour, an extended focus section on the teacher's shortage crisis facing the public schools and how to meet it and an interview with Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. Next tonight, a major focus section on the state of teaching and especially the coming shortage of qualified teachers.

Two years ago, a presidential commission that spoke of a rising tide of mediocrity helped set off a nationwide debate over the state of American education. Since then, some 38 states have passed education reforms, and many have raised taxes to increase teacher salaries and reduce class sizes. There's also been a push for higher standards, both for students and teachers. Despite all the movement, one area looms as a crisis that could wipe out many of these gains. It's estimated that at least a million new teachers will be needed in the next five years, as older teachers retire and a growing number of younger teachers quit. Tonight we'll be hearing from four authorities on what's being done to head off the crisis, but first we hear from teachers in this report by a special correspondent, John Marrow. Tim Durefeld has worked in his profession for 18 years, but he has to teach driver education before and after work to pay his bills. Farmers, he's picked strawberries and driven buses.

Harry Chandler has 21 years experience in his field, yet he still has to work part-time, meet cutter, house painter, and grave digger. That's what I'd like to show you, the literature on it. Jim Connolly sells home products and does carpentry in his spare time. In almost any other profession, those men would be able to live comfortably at this point in their careers, but their teachers, they need second jobs, not for luxuries, but to make ends meet. What's happening to them helps explain why so few young people are becoming teachers, why so many veteran teachers are getting out. We've come to Dayton, Oregon to tell this story. We could have gone to almost any school district in the country. Once we get the trusses, we get the walls up, get the trusses on, we need to hold those trusses together with something. Jim Connolly was working in private industry in California, when he decided he wanted to teach woodworking. Why do you do it? That's a big question. Why do you do it? Because I love it right now, today, this moment, I love it. I don't know how much longer I love it for what I'm getting.

After seven years, Jim Connolly's thinking of getting out. I don't know, it just gripes me that I have to plan a dinner with my wife, a month in advance. It can't be a spontaneous thing. When we go to a restaurant, I would like to be able to pay for the meal rather than having a father-in-law or a mother-in-law, pay for that dinner because I just don't have the cash to do that. And that shouldn't be. You know, I'm a professional person. I have a college education, I have four years of academia behind me. Now, are you getting any kind of a gap right in here? Okay. Jim Connolly earns $19,500 considerably less than he could earn as a carpenter. The most any teacher in Dayton earns is slightly over $27,000. I cannot see me doing this at 55 or 60 years old for the salary that I'm getting. See, what they're going to do for me is after 16 years old, freeze my salary for me. No problem. I'll do you a favor. You teach 16 years, you'll top out. Another matter what you say, you have 22 years, 33 years of whatever. Good deal. Quite an incentive.

No problem. Four years ago, Harry Chandler reached the top of the pay scale and nearby McMinnville. He's been frozen there ever since. Chandler makes $28,500 a year as a special education teacher. Not enough, he says, to send his kids to college or even to repair the dry rod in the roof. Not enough expertise, but I'm not being paid for it. And it makes me feel badly because I am not doing what a normal meal in America is supposed to be doing. And that's supplying his family with all of the things they should have. Those people who buy their snowmobiles and their extra cabin cruisers and things, but who don't want to pay more education money are expecting me then to live on much less money than the average middle class person. For the family like this, it seems I've spotted a problem. We have a tradition in the United States of expecting teachers to be sort of missionaries where they don't really get paid the payment is supposed to come from within, feeling good.

And you see this in the newspapers all the time when people in teachers are asking for raises. Well, teachers simply aren't supposed to make money. If they can't make enough money in teaching, they make it outside. That could mean less energy for the classroom. Step number seven, take a look at the Vietnamese people themselves, namely that of the refugee. If any teacher has a right to be fatigued, it's Tim Dorefeld. His day begins at 6 a.m. with driver education. He teaches four different subjects. After school, he coaches sports and directs school plays. After 18 years, his teaching brings him $25,000. He earns another $5,000 working after hours. The strain shows at home, according to his wife Emily. It's a lot of evenings of just the five of us eating dinner and Tim coming in and grabbing something. Sometimes it's coming in grabbing something and leaving again, so maybe he's home for 45 minutes. And that's all that the kids and I have seen him. And you know, that gets hard on them.

And in particular, it gets hard on me, you know, just having to be the mother all the time and sometimes the father too and, you know, in some ways. I remember when Adam was just a babe and I was coming home late one of my many nights and came into the bedroom to kiss him good night in the crib and he woke up screaming because he didn't know me. And I really felt there was a time for identity change that I better get home so that kids going to cry from pain not from surprise at this stranger. Tim Dorefeld is going to stay in teaching. Tim Connolly is thinking seriously getting out. Harry Chandler is afraid he doesn't have any choice. I don't like it. I don't want to leave it. But I have to think of my family too and to be honest, think of myself. If I could stay a classroom teacher, I'd stay until he threw me out if I could afford it. Chandler's saddened by the thought of getting out of teaching and worried about who will replace him and others who are leaving. We're not going to be able to fill with classrooms with good teachers. We're going to have to accept mediocre teachers and we're going to have to accept bad teachers

who in essence are babysitters. The talk in education is of excellence, of higher standards and greater accountability. But it's just talk as long as veteran teachers have to hold down second and third jobs to make ends meet. It's just talk if the profession can't attract and hold talented young teachers. That's what's happening. For every new qualified math teacher graduating from college, 12 veteran math teachers resign or retire. For every new science teacher, 14 veterans leave. Next year they'll be teacher shortages in most subject areas. Where are tomorrow's teachers going to come from? I don't want to be a teacher. There's too much hassle. My dad was a principal and he didn't work for, I mean, I got turned off on being a teacher. I don't want to be a teacher because they're not respected enough. Teachers hold the most important job and that is educating the youth. And I believe that they should be paid more, they should be respected more.

Of the 19 students in this English class at McMinnville High School, only one wants to be a teacher. And I don't care about the money. It makes no difference to me. Just if they pay me $10 a day, it wouldn't bother me because I want to teach. To explore further the problems of attracting more and better teachers, we go first to Washington and Linda Darling Hammond, a round corporation researcher who wrote a recent report entitled The Coming Crisis in Teaching. Miss Hammond, many people might think that after all the noise that followed the reports of a couple of years ago, that a lot of the problems had been solved. How much has actually been done on teacher pay across the country and how has it helped? There have been a number of states that have made modest efforts to increase teacher salaries and a few that have made more substantial efforts. We have not seen though much turnaround in the decline in the number of college students

choosing to enter teaching. We're now down to about one out of every 20 college students choosing to enter the field as compared to about one out of five, ten years ago. And I don't think until there are some other changes with respect to working conditions in schools and classrooms that we will see a turnaround in this state of events. What do you think teachers would, how big the average increase would have to be generally speaking, to make the profession attractive, to stop the, to make it more attractive to entries and to stop the people leaving it? Well to be competitive with other professions which require a college education, teaching would have to pay beginning teachers about $20,000 a year and salaries would need to increase over the course of a career to $40,000 or perhaps more. And what is the bracket now, beginning and ending, what is it now?

The average beginning teacher salary is approximately $13,000 and the average top of the scale is somewhere between 23 and 25,000. So you're talking about more than a 50% increase at starting salaries to make it really competitive and well more than 50% perhaps 75% above that as the, as where, what they could reach at the end of a career? Yes, and that would be of course if you're a sole attractor, we're salaries. Of course people, many people have gone into teaching because of that sense of mission and so on but we're finding that what causes people to leave the profession is not only salaries but the set of conditions under which they work. At the same time many states are trying as we see reported to raise the standards of teaching and they're raised the entry standards. How can they do that effectively at a time of teacher shortage and of inadequate salaries? Well, where states are raising salaries in conjunction with that measure, they may be able

to both raise standards and increase the supply of teachers but that's generally not the place and what in fact is happening is that some teachers, potential teachers are eliminated from the pool of teachers through competency tests and other mechanisms and those would perhaps be less competent teachers although we don't know the relationship there but they are opening the door to meet the shortages through emergency certificates, through assigning teachers to teach outside of their field of preparation which is a dramatically increasing phenomenon and other moves which ultimately lower the quality of instruction. Well, we'll come back Miss Hammond, thank you. Next the former Reagan administration secretary of education, Terrell Bell, he joins us from public station KUED Salt Lake City on the campus of the University of Utah where he is now a professor.

Mr. Secretary, you kind of started all this two years ago, what is your assessment of what progress has been made, has the tide of mediocrity stopped rising? Well, I think we've made considerable progress in many areas but the one area that we're lacking in is the one we've been discussing here. Teachers salaries are a nationwide disgrace and we need from 30 to 50% increases in the salaries of our teachers and we're getting 5, 6, 7, there may be a 9 or 11% increase, that's the highest I've heard of and so we're nibbling at the problem rather than making the big move. Now we all know why, it's because of the tax burden and the political heat of raising taxes but until we face up to that we're going to continue to rock along with the problem that you're so ably and admirably displaying here on your show right now. One of the teachers in the tape from Oregon said, the people who go out and buy their

snowmobile and their cabin cruiser want him to subsidize education. Is that really true or is if it were presented energetically by the political leadership at whatever level would American people from your experience be willing to pay a lot more for teachers? What do you think? I think it's the latter, I believe that if governors and legislative leaders will document the need, if they'll highlight the need, the people will respond. We've made a lot of changes, we have career ladder problems like the one implemented by Lamar Alexander in Tennessee, we're doing a lot of things to change the structure and compensate teachers based upon other factors than the experience and college degrees. I've just admired how the states have moved ahead there but what they've been reluctant to do is to move the whole scale up there in a way so that we face up to the fact that

our salaries are not market sensitive, they're not professionally competitive and therefore the bright young people are going into engineering and business rather than into teaching so we get the bottom of the academic barrel into education. As demonstrated by your display of the fact that there are, we're going to need over a million new teachers over the next five years, we're going to draw them from that bottom unless something happens. It's a discouraging situation. Out of all of the action that's taken place, the one that we're lagging on is moving those salaries up there and we all know why that's the tough painful thing to do but it has to be done. Well, Mr. Secretary, we'll come back in a moment. The state of Oklahoma is wrestling with these questions as Democratic Governor George and I push us in education reform package and hire taxes to pay for it. With us, fresh from that debate in the Oklahoma legislature is the state secretary of education, John Folks.

He joins us from public station, K-E-T-A, Oklahoma City. Mr. Secretary, how does what you've heard square with the situation in Oklahoma? Well, I think the secretary has elaborated exactly the situation that we have in Oklahoma and I think it's happening nationwide. We've been called upon the increase requirements for teachers to be certified to teach in the public schools but the one thing that's been lacking has been the response on the part of increasing the salaries. We can do all we can to raise standards in education but you have to attract the quality people into the classroom. What are the average teachers' salaries in Oklahoma right now? Well, the average teacher salary in Oklahoma is $18,900, starting at, starting where? Well, that is the average salary. The beginning salary in Oklahoma is $12,000 and $60, and what can a person attain over the career?

Well, they can climb to about $25,000 over a 15-year period. Now, your bill, the bill the governor is pushing in the legislature, would do what? Well, it would basically increase teacher salaries by $2,000. The problem very simply is to get that kind of money, you have to raise taxes. A $2,000 salary increase will cost about $80 million in the state of Oklahoma. So we're talking about a lot of money. Well, what is the reaction of the legislature where that's being debated right now? Well, the reaction, the legislature has been very positive in terms of putting the money and increasing teacher salaries, but we've not had an increase in Oklahoma since 1982 in teacher salaries, at least from the state level. The reaction is positive. The only drawback right now is how to raise the taxes. Do you think that people of Oklahoma, going in the question, I just asked the secretary at the state level, do you think that people of Oklahoma are willing to raise the willing to pay the people who, well, they don't buy a snowmobile in Oklahoma, but right

by a cabin cruiser, are they willing to pay more money for teachers or is it a political impossibility, do you think? I think the people in Oklahoma are willing to pay more salaries for teachers. I think they've been very positive in their response to paying teachers additional money. But I think they expect more accountability, and I think the secretary pointed that out. I think they expect better education for their children. I think they expect more accountability on the part of teachers and more quality on the part of teachers. Is there a danger that with this coming shortage that you're going to have to lower standards not raise them in order to fill up the teacher positions? The danger in doing that is very simply that we have emergency certificates that we do issue to people because we have to have a person in the classroom with the children. The shortage areas we have are math and science and special education, some in industrial arts, and we are having to put people in that classroom who have not fully met the requirements

for full standards certificates as we call them. So it is a problem and very truthfully, it's a serious situation in terms of the standards. Well, thank you. Finally a man whose job it is to fill teaching positions in the huge New York City school system where shortages in certain subjects have become chronic is Edward Aqualone, director of personnel in the New York City school system. Mr. Aqualone, what is the shortage of teachers in New York? Well, we anticipate for the beginning of school in September that we'll need approximately 3,500 teachers to fill out 1,000 schools. The schools of education in the Greater Metropolitan Area, we estimate that there are approximately 1,500 graduates, this past May, not all of them come into the public school system. Some go into the program school system and some go into the areas in which they live. Therefore, we've reached outside of the traditional study of education to people who are major in liberal arts and we are encouraging them to come into education.

And like the others, we have modified our requirements to allow these people to come in on a temporary basis. Does that mean you're having to lower your standards in order to meet the shortage? Well, we've always had an examining process in New York City unlike other districts in New York State. The person must come through the board of exam and there must take a test. We have not... We haven't changed the test. No, we have not. No, I have, we changed the content requirements so that if a young person was becoming a teacher of English, let's say, they still needed the 36 credits in English, we did not modify that, we just modified the fact that they didn't have to have the educational training. How do you... Where does the salary range for teachers in New York City? I started living as presumably a lot more expensive than it is in Oklahoma. Starting salary right now is $14,500, but I should modify that and tell you that that is really... Our contract is really year old. That $14.5 is based upon $19.83. There should be a percentage on top of that for $19.84, which our teachers have not received,

and there will be another percentage on top of that for $19.85. As you know, we're still in contractual discussions. We project that we probably will be coming in with a base salary of somewhere in 17,075, beginning September of 85. And how do you talk young people into taking that on as a career? Is it tough? It's very difficult, because we're competing with a small number of people within the schools of education with neighboring districts, and unfortunately, New York City is not competitive with our neighboring districts. We're running about $2,000 below them. One of the advantage we have in New York City, we have a great number of professional people here. Many come into New York City to work in the financial district or into the arts. And for some reason, they may find that they're not doing well there, and we do attract people to come in. So many instances, it's probably easier to staff New York City than it is to staff some of the smaller districts around the country.

Ms. Hammond, you heard the correspondent on that tape piece we had from Oregon, say that unless the resources are made available, all is talking, improving the schools is just going to be talk. From your survey of the situation across the country, is it mostly just all talks so far? Window dressing? Well, I think it's clear that unless something is done to offset this definite crisis and the teaching profession that's emerging, the rest of the reforms to increase students' graduation requirements and to lengthen the school day and school year cannot amount to as much as we would like them to, because unless you have that skilled and talented human capital in the classrooms, asking for more courses which may be poorly taught is not going to accomplish very much. Mr. Secretary Bell, do you agree with that that unless the teacher's shortage crisis is met and soon that the rest of the reforms are going to go down the drain or are just

talk? I don't think it's quite that bad. I think we've needed to raise our high school graduation requirements, and most of the states have done that, we've made some other changes, there's some improvements coming in our textbooks, but the point may just still have valid. That is as Ms. Hammond said, unless we have adequate teachers in the classroom, we're still not going to realize what we're after. I wouldn't wash it away and say it'll all just be talk, but it surely won't be what it did not to be. We won't realize the potential that would be there if we'd face the situation that we'd ought to face, that we are grossly underpaying our teachers that are manifestly unfair of our society to do that, and we'd ought to face up to it and raise the money and raise their salaries where we know they'd ought to be. Everybody knows that, and we'd ought to get with it in my opinion.

Mr. Folks, in Oklahoma, is the, how do you put this equation of meeting the teacher crisis, teacher shortage crisis, and carrying on with the other reforms? Can you do both, or is it going to be one or the other? Well, we've raised the standards, and we've done the things that many states have done in terms of increasing requirements on people to be certified, raising high school graduation, requirements, et cetera, but unless we do raise the money and we do make an effort to pay teachers to be in the classroom where they can make a living wage, where they don't have to hold second jobs, then all this is on the periphery, and the real quality of education depends on that teacher. And if you're $2,000 across the board, pay rise goes through there in Oklahoma, is that going to do it? Is that going to be enough of an incentive really to build up the profession? That is a step for Oklahoma, it is a step in the right direction for us, however, it's not the end step.

We're last in our region, we're 47th in the nation in terms of teacher salaries, so Oklahoma is going to have to continue to address the problem. Mr. Folks said it was a real problem in Oklahoma, the business of perhaps having to lower standards to put people in the classrooms. Are you facing that in New York? You mean lower teacher standards? Yeah. So we are because we are still requiring them to take the necessary examinations. In fact, New York state just passed a regulation that, in order for people to be certified, they have to take an examination that they're requiring. So the teachers in New York City for permanent licensure have to take two examinations. The one that we require through the board of examiners and the one that the state requires. What likelihood is there that teacher salaries are going to be raised on the scale that Ms. Hammond and Secretary Bell were talking about in New York, he was talking 30% to 50%. I don't think we're ever going to reach the point where we're going to be competitive, but perhaps attorneys or physicians or other people in those professions. But I certainly think that we should be competitive with certainly other teachers around

the nation and with other industries that don't require the kind of professional preparation that attorneys do. I would think that a salary of 20,000 to start is minimum for teachers and that it should run somewhere up to about 40,000 and there should be incentives to keep people in the classroom by giving them a large sum of money, perhaps $5,000, yep, 10 and 15 years. Ms. Hammond, what kind of urgency did you find in your survey of all this in across the country in the state and local level? How serious a crisis do the states feel as is? At the time we did our initial study, this situation had not been widely acknowledged. So there wasn't any sense of urgency. In fact, there wasn't much acknowledgement that a difficult situation existed. I think that's changed. The emphasis resolved on how can we make our schools looking sound better?

Yes, I'd say so that there had not been at that juncture, which is now a year and a half ago, much attention at all to the situation regarding teachers, the supply of teachers or the quality of teachers. Do you think the sort of crisis situation is appreciated, Mr. Bell? Yes, I do. We're noting a bigger attrition, a larger attrition than we anticipated. And so I think that even over the last couple of years that the situation has worsened, I'm becoming increasingly alarmed at it. Of course, I anticipated, after the claim that came out when nation at risk was published, I anticipated that we'd make some large strides in salaries, and we haven't done it. We've made some small strides, not some significant ones. I'd emphasize that I think we'd have done better, had we not had the resistance especially from MEA to the...

The largest teachers union, yes. They were opposed to the career ladder system when it came out, and I think that discouraged many legislators. I know some states where they were hung up over that fight. I think if they would join us and let us pay teachers a bit more on the basis of their performance rather than simply a seniority that we'd make some progress there. I don't want to lay it all on to them. We'd ought to be raising the entry-level salaries anyway. Entry-level teachers ought to get a salary commensurate with entry-level baccalaureate degree engineering and business graduates. So we ought to go ahead and do that, but it gets to be a political matter when the most powerful union on that with a great lobby in the state legislatures resists this other proposal, and so we get into an almost a catch-22 situation with it. I just wish the NEA would join us in that regard. I think we'd make a lot of progress if that could happen.

Well, we have to leave it there this evening. I'd like to thank you Secretary Baum as Hammond in Washington, Mr. Folks in Oklahoma City, and Stracholone in New York. First an update on that terrorist hijacking in the Middle East, a male passenger aboard the hijacked TWA flight has reportedly been killed at the Beirut airport. There is no word on his identity, but reporters on the scene say he appears to be a young man with a crew cut. The hijackers have said he is a U.S. Marine. Just a little while ago, representatives of Lebanon, Shiite militia, went on board the plane to try to negotiate with the hijackers who are also identified as Shiites. Our final focus section tonight is the first part of a newsmaker interview with India's Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi. The 40-year-old leader has been in Washington this week meeting with officials of the Reagan administration. I sat down with him earlier this afternoon at the residence of India's ambassador to the United States.

I think the statement that you've made that is getting the most attention here is one in your speech to the joint session of the Congress in which you called for an international political settlement leading to a non-aligned Afghanistan. Now some American officials are saying that this is a shift in India's position. Is it a shift? No. It's almost exactly, in fact it is exactly what was in the non-aligned statement of 81. It was what was in the non-aligned statement of 83 and there is no shift in opposition. How do you explain what American officials are saying? Well, we've been saying this through a red truth. Maybe there was some problem with communications on what we were saying and what was being interpreted. What role would you finally like to see the Soviet Union play in Afghanistan? The same role that they are playing now. No, like we said in our statement, we want a non-aligned Afghanistan and we want it to remain

as such. We don't like any countries interfering or intervening in the internal affairs of other countries and we'd like that to stop. In other words, you want the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Have you told the Soviet leaders that you met with Mr. Gorbachev last month, did you tell him this? We have discussed it, yes. And what was his response without betraying any conflicts? Yes. You have to see both together. The Moojal deans pressurizing Afghanistan. The rebels. Yes, the Moojal deans, they're called. And we've got to put an end to both. There's no way it can, you know, otherwise one is used as an excuse for the other. How do you follow up on the statement that you may, I mean, what can you do as the leader

of India to bring about a settlement in Afghanistan? We may be able to help because we have some contacts with the Soviets and we've had fairly good talks with the American government doing. How much influence do you think you have with the Soviets on this? That's very difficult to say, but we could try and talk to them depending on how our talks finish here. Do you think their position has changed? Do you think they want to, the situation in Afghanistan to remain what it is now? I think they would accept a new clone on the land of Afghanistan. What makes you believe that? Oh, we believe it. Yes. Have they said so? They've given us indications, yes. The role of the United States in aiding the mojo-hunting rebels from Pakistan in Afghanistan. Is that an improper role for the United States to play in your view?

Well, we feel any interference in Donald affairs of other countries is an improper role and should we stop? Did you tell President Reagan this? Yes. And his response, we made our position very clear on this, especially in our area, we feel that it is a destabilizing factor. Your relations, India's relations with the Soviet Union, how close are your two countries to each other? Well, we're good friends. Soviet Union has been reliable when we needed help, they've helped us, but I mean, there are no bases or other Soviet outposts in India. India is very much independent, not aligned, and will remain so. Would you say that you were closer to the Soviet Union than you are to the United States? I think at the moment, yes.

Why is that? We've had problems with various dealings with the US. We felt that you tilted against India on some occasions. We felt that you had stopped eight to us on certain occasions when we thought it was unjustified, and that there is a history. We have differing views on our various world incidents. Would you like for the situation to stay that way, as you describe, where you are closer to the Soviet Union than you are in the United States? Is that a situation you prefer? No. We, there are two things. One is the stand we take on international issues, where irrespective of being closer or further or getting along with, or not getting along with the country, we take a stand which we think is right. If it doesn't matter that it will hurt the Soviet Union, or it will hurt the US, if we

think it's right, we take that position. If we think something is right for India, we do that. The friendship, we have friendship with the Soviet Union, we want to build more friendship with the US, but if we will not compromise our friendship with the Soviet Union or with any other country, it's not one against the other. We are complementary. But how can it not be when, in so many respects, the systems, the goals of these two nations, the United States and the Soviet Union are so different, how can you be at the same time close to one? We are not in your race, we are not competing with you, we are not a world power and we are not playing the same game, we are a developing country, we have our own priorities, all the developing countries have an answer very similar to this and we feel that the rights of the developing countries are equal to the rights of any other countries and we make

our voices hurt. How much closer are you, if at all, to the United States after this visit? I think many misunderstandings have been cleared up and it's really, this visit has extended the friendship that started off during my mother's visit in 1982, we are going to build more from here, we got on well President Reagan and I and we hope to see President Reagan in India. How much difference does the United States decision to provide advanced military technology to India make, does it make any difference at all? A little bit not very much because there are still certain clauses in your contract which Congress requires which we feel hesitant to sign, so that is a problem but we would told that they have been some changes in those clauses recently so we will reevaluate it

and see what the new clauses are like. Is this something you discussed? We have discussed this, yes. Why are there things that India wants as a result of this new understanding between – Well there are things we could buy from you, yes, but there are also available elsewhere. As you know, there are some American officials who are said to be concerned that providing military secrets to India may somehow lead to this information falling into the hands of the Soviets. Why should they take it from India, I believe, reading your papers past few days, past few weeks, they seem to get enough of it directly. If the United States provides those sorts of things that you are thinking of to India, what does India do in return for the United States? Is that an appropriate question to ask? No, we are not bargaining for anything. I didn't come here on a sort of purchasing or bargaining trip.

I really came to meet President Reagan, to meet your other leaders, and to sort of establish a rapport which we could build on. And I think we have established a rapport and it will go well for both our countries. On Monday we conclude the interview with Prime Minister Gandhi. Finally a recap of the day's main story. A young man believed to be an American has been shot and killed aboard the hijack TWA flight now on the ground in Beirut. His body was tossed from the plane and taken to the airport terminal. Lebanese Amal Shiite representatives are reportedly aboard the plane attempting to negotiate with the Shiite Muslim terrorists who commandeered the plane early today as it left Athens Greece bound for Rome. There are at least 69 Americans still aboard the plane. That's our news hour for tonight. I'm Judy Woodruff, thank you, and have a good weekend.

The McNeil-Lera news hour is funded by AT&T. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting and this station and other public television stations. For a transcript send $2 to $3.45 New York, New York 10101.