The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

Intro

ANNOUNCER: The MacNeil-Lehrer NewsHour comes to you tonight from San Francisco, site of the 1984 Democratic National Convention.

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening from San Francisco, where Jim Lehrer and I and our NewsHour colleagues are originating this week. Today Senator Gary Hart will address the Democratic convention. Then delegates nominate their presidential candidate, with Walter Mondale's victory seemingly assured. Even so, Mondale took no chances, and worked to eliminate any rebellion by black and hispanic delegates. In Washington, president Reagan signed the tax bill that makes a small cut in federal deficits. Jim?

JIM LEHRER: Our story number one tonight is Gary Hart. Judy Woodruff looks at how far the political trip has been for the Colorado senator to this Democratic National Convention, and Elizabeth Brackett examines the expiring Hart candidacy with our now-familiar Arkansas delegation. The Arkansas folks are also involved in our story number two: Jesse Jackson, the morning after. We will be talking to Atlanta Mayor Andrew Young about his own experience at the podium as well as Jackson's.Our resident bipartisan wisdom team of David Gergen and Alan Baron are back to tell us what it all means, and from New York, Charlayne Hunter-Gault will report on the news from the non-San Francisco world.

MacNEIL: This is the night when Walter Mondale's long and dogged pursuit of the Democratic presidential nomination pays off. Unless there is some totally unexpected behavior among Mondale's more than 2,100 committed delegates, the Democratic convention will formally select him to run against Ronald Reagan this fall. Although they continued to talk bravely, there was no evidence that Gary Hart with 1,244 delegates, or Jesse Jackson with 400 could stop Mondale from amassing the 1,967 he needs to win on the first ballot. Mondale's will be the last name actually placed in nomination, proceded by Hart's, Jackson's and George McGovern's. McGovern, the 1972 party nominee, has only a handful of delegates and plans to back Mondale, but wanted his name put forward as a symbolic gesture. But before the drama of the nominating speeches and the balloting, it is Gary Hart's turn to speak to the convention. The question in many minds is, will Hart make a last-minute attempt to stampede the convention to stop Mondale, or follow Jesse Jackson's example last night -- appeal for unity and look for another chance in 1988. Jim? Hart's Journey

LEHRER: Gary Hart was only one of several very dark, dark horses in a crowded field when all of this began. Nobody, maybe not even Hart himself, expected him to do as well, to travel as far and as long as he did. Judy Woodruff reports on the end of the journey. Judy?

JUDY WOODRUFF: Jim, we caught up with Hart last night at a hotel in San Francisco when he had what he called his last meeting with his delegates before tonight's balloting for the nomination.

Sen. GARY HART, Democratic presidential candidate: When I was even years old, give or take a year -- [laughter]

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: It drew a lot of laughs, but it was a painful reminder of Gary Hart's rocky beginnings as a presidential candidate, when confusion over his name change and his age dominated news coverage of Hart. But, by last night, less than 24 hours before his name would be placed in nomination at the Democratic convention, not only was all that behind him, he was still predicting, publicly at least, that he would win.

Sen. HART: We say to the uncommitted, unpledged delegates in this room, in this convention, in this city, we need your help. With your help I intend to be the nominee of the Democratic Party and the next president of the United States.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: It was just what Hart supporters in the room wanted to hear.

1st HART SUPPORTER: We expect to be on the floor tomorrow and go the first ballot all the way.

2nd HART SUPPORTER: I think we're going to walk away with a major upset tomorrow because it just seems like there are so many people that are jumping ship.

3rd HART SUPPORTER: From what's been happening lately, there are rumors going all around the convention that something's happening, sort of like the prairie fire that started this whole thing off in the first place, and so it seems to be starting again. And so I was really happy to see Senator Hart in a very upbeat and non-conciliatory mood.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: There are more than 1,200 Hart delegates who may well be hoping against hope, but the consensus clearly is at this convention that he has no real chance to deny Mondale a first-ballot win. If that's the case, people are starting to ask, what difference has the Hart candidacy made? What legacy has he left? There is surprising agreement among his supporters and detractors. Colorado Congressman Tim Wirth was active in the Hart campaign and says his impact has been obvious for some time.

Rep. TIM WIRTH, (D) Colorado: I mean, that mercurial, remarkable change in American politics in February, March and April this year was clearly saying that the American people are asking for a different kind of future. They're asking for a different kind of economics. They're asking for a different kind of a defense program. They're asking for a different kind of U.S. presence overseas, and I think now they're going to get it from the Democratic Party.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: George McGovern, who ran against Hart in the early primaries, agrees.

GEORGE McGOVERN: In all due respects to those who attacked him for not having enough beef in his new ideas, the fact remains that Gary Hart introduced a lot of new ideas; he called on the party not to rest on the victories of the past, but look to some of the current problems with new solutions. And I think that was an important achievement.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: Connecticut Senator Chris Dodd, one of Hart's few public backers in the Congress, also sees a change in the makeup of the Democratic Party as a result of Hart's candidacy.

Sen. CHRISTOPHER DODD, (D) Connecticut: He has brought an awful lot of people to the Democratic fold that could have easily ended up in the Republican or the Reagan camp. He has a particular appeal, I think, to what amounts to almost 45% of the potential voting population age of this country -- people born between 1946 and '64.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: Mondale supporters like Missouri Congressman Richard Gephardt give Hart similar credit.

Rep. RICHARD GEPHARDT, (D) Missouri: He really brought into the party and in the future can bring into the party a whole bunch of people that haven't been in it before. The baby boomers, the independents, the people who really don't understand or want to be a part of party politics, are attracted to Gary Hart and therefore they may be attracted to the Democratic Party in the future.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: Several observers say Hart also had a critical impact on his chief opponent.

Sen. McGOVERN: Gary Hart probably did more to strengthen Walter Mondale's political character than anything else that happenedthis year. If Mondale had walked into that nomination with the kind of ease that he apparently had a few months ago, I don't think he would be the kind of a tough, aggressive campaigner that he is today.

Rep. GEPHARDT: Most importantly, he defined Walter Mondale. He got -- he made Walter Mondale come out fighting, come off the floor.On Super Tuesday he almost didn't come off the floor, and because of that he was able to articulate his personality, his character. He became a definable human being, which, even in the vice presidency, he hadn't become for millions of Americans. In short, he did Walter Mondale the greatest favor that could have been done.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: Even Hart's closest supporters admit he had serious organizational problems this year, and that he made some political mistakes that helped doom his campaign. George McGovern says Hart's biggest mistake came in not getting his message across.

Sen. McGOVERN: I think he now understands perhaps better than he did a year ago that a politican not only has to have new ideas if he's going to talk about them, but he has to spell them out in the language of ordinary people and do it night and day, week after week throughout the campaign season in order to get those new ideas accepted.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: Congressman Gephardt, the Mondale supporter, says Hart is the first of a new generation in Democratic politics.

Rep. GEPHARDT: He represents a whole bunch of people who are coming along in the party, who will break through and a lot of them be running for president in 1988.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: But Senator Dodd suggests perhaps any Democrat of Hart's generation could have done the same thing.

Sen. DODD: It's not a strong personality cult in the sense that people have gravitated to Gary Hart's person. I think he, in fact, has said that over and over again, this isn't a contest between individuals, and I agree with him.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: And Mondale campaign chairman Jim Johnson says Hart would not necessarily be the frontrunner for the 1988 nomination if Mondale loses in November.

JIM JOHNSON, Mondale National Campaign Director: It's a long process between the two elections. I think he's got a lot of friends around the country. He's impressed a lot of people this year. He has certainly given a clear message about what he's concerned about for the future of our country. That's all a massive plus as he heads towards the future, but I don't think it has much to do ultimately with who might get the nomination in '88.

WOODRUFF [voice-over]: For many Hart delegates at this convention, however, the senator will have their support at long as he wants it.

HART DELEGATE: We'll just keep going as long as he'll keep going. Never give up.Never give up.

WOODRUFF: To be fair to Jim Johnson, the chairman of the Mondale campaign, we should add that he also gave Hart credit for bringing new people into the Democratic Party and for introducing new ideas that Democrats were receptive to. But his main tribute to Hart was for giving Mondale a chance to demonstrate, in his words, "that he is a real fighter." And we found that most everyone we talked to agrees with Johnson that Hart will be only one of perhaps a dozen people running in 1988, probably including some women and some minorities. Robin?

MacNEIL: While Gary Hart, in the face of evidence that was hard to deny, persisted in refusing to concede the nomination to Mondale, so did his delegates. There were no reported defections of Hart delegates to Mondale's apparently irresistable bandwagon. In the delegations they were keeping the faith for the first ballot tonight, as Elizabeth Brackett found in her continuing coverage of the Arkansas delegation. One Delegation's View

ELIZABETH BRACKETT [voice-over]: Craig Smith never let up.As the votes on the party platform, by and large the Mondale party platform, rolled in, Hart floor leader Smith kept his nine delegates in line. Not that it was difficult. Arkansas's Hart delegates have not budged an inch from their man.

1st HART DELEGATE: This is real. We truly believe that Senator Hart is going to become President Hart, beyond a shadow of a doubt.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Smith, a 26-year-old attorney from Sherwood, Arkansas, has spent the last year of his life working for Gary Hart, for free. He insists Hart's candidacy is still alive. The Mondale compromise on the Hart platform plank on the use of force, says Smith, was capitulation not compromise.

CRAIG SMITH, Hart Whip: Mondale just caved in on minority report #5, Gary Hart's report. He realized he didn't have the strength to support his position on it, so he has told his floor leaders to tell him to all vote for Gary Hart's position on this issue. He doesn't want the test vote of his strength because he realizes he hasn't got the votes there to win it. Walter Mondale realizes that his strength's eroding out here every day. You can feel it on the floor.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: The erosion is news to the Mondale whip for Arkansas, Bruce Lindsey.

[interviewing] Now, the Hart delegates are telling us there's a softness in the Arkansas delegation. They think there are people they may pick up tomorrow night, at least people that will abstain from volting for Mondale.

BRUCE LINDSEY, Mondale Whip: I'd be very surprised. I think the Mondale delegation voted down the line today on all of the platform positions, uniform, 26 votes down the line. I expect 26 votes tomorrow night for Walter Mondale.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: The optimism of Smith and the other Hart Arkansas delegates was toughened even further at a late-night rally for their candidate.

Sen. HART: We have not given up. Opening this party up and keeping it open to everyone who wants to participate, and that has been part of what this campaign is all about.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Though after hearing Jesse Jackson's eloquent plea for party unity, Smith softened enough to say his candidate would also call for party unity, with a twist.

Mr. SMITH: Gary Hart will say, "Let's unify the Democratic Party and let's unity it behind me." But all in all, let's unify it.

BRACKETT: So what will his bottom line be tomorrow night? Unity or "vote for me"? He can't have it both ways.

Mr. SMITH: I think it will be both ways.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: Arkansas Senator Dale Bumpers says he understands the enthusiasm of the Hart supporters in his state, and he applauds their determination. But as for reality --

Sen. DALE BUMPERS, Mondale delegate: My personal opinion is that Gary can't win the nomination. I think it's all cut and dried. Mondale has more than 100 delegates committed to him in excess of the required number, and I know this business; I've been around these conventions before, and to suggest that that many people are going to defect, you know -- this town is rife with rumors about a draft movement of this person or that person, and that isn't going to happen.

BRACKETT: The question for the Mondale campaign now is more than Hart's cooperation. It's whether or not Mondale can win the enthusiasm, assistence and energy of Hart's supporters, who have stood behind the Colorado senator, in the fall campaign against President Reagan. Jim?

LEHRER: Today was what important journalists covering political conventions might call a two-theme day and the other one, after Hart, is Jesse Jackson -- what next for him and black and other minority Democrats? Reaction to Jackson's rouser of a speech last night was part of it, but so were other events of this day. One involved the hispanic delegates to the convention. Correspondent Spencer Michels of public station KQED here in San Francisco tells us about that. Hispanic Boycott?

SPENCER MICHELS, KQED [voice-over]: For three days hispanic delegates threatened to withhold their votes from Mondale on the first ballot as a tactic against the pending immigration bill. In hispanic caucus meetings all week the battle raged over the best tactic to defeat the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform bill, which most hispanic leaders believe discriminates against them. While some latinos, including Hart and Jackson supporters, wanted a vote boycott against Mondale, others, like San Antonio Mayor Henry Cisneros braved a hostile reaction from the delegates in calling for no boycott.

HENRY CISNEROS, Mayor of San Antonio: Ladies and gentlemen, abstention will result in this -- harming the man who has the best chance to be the nominee, who has already said he is against Simpson-Mazzoli, and he'll -- [jeering]

MICHELS [voice-over]: Today hispanics gathered early at a meeting with black delegates, the threat of the boycott still getting publicity and making Mondale forces nervous. Mario Obledo of California, head of the League of United Latin American Citizens, led the boycott drive.

MARIO OBLEDO, League of United Latin American Citizens: We're not interested in the party or the candidates. We're interested in the hispanic community.

Rep. BILL RICHARDS, (D) New Mexico: If we proceed with a boycott, we're going to look silly. It's going to be an empty symbolic gesture. It'll get a few votes. It'll show division, and it won't change Simpson-Mazzoli.

MICHELS [voice-over]: Yesterday the caucus had deadlocked on the boycott. Today's caucus was the showdown, and hispanic delegates for Mondale turned out in force. Again, the meeting was emotional and raucous. The Hart forces had been accused of masterminding the boycott attempt, but Denver Mayor Frederico Pena, a Hart delegate, tried to keep things polite.

FREDERICO PENA, Mayor of Denver: And we are smart enough to know that even where we might disagree on strategies, we always give the courtesy to our fellow hispanics, congressmen, mayors, whomever they are.

POLLY BACA, hispanic caucus chair: I'd like to make a motion to advise --

MICHELS [voice-over]: After a short debate, caucus chairperson Polly Baca called for a voice vote on whether to reconsider the demand for a boycott. Mondale supporter Gloria Molina, California assemblywoman from Los Angeles, had organized her forces carefully and exhorted them to make sure there would be no boycott. Only when the vote was over did Mondale and his running mate, Geraldine Ferraro, show up. They excited the crowd, said the right things in a subdued way about Simpson-Mazzoli.

WALTER MONDALE, Democratic presidential candidate: We're going to fight off things that are wrong, and one of those things in the Simpson-Mazzoli bill. We're going to fight it; we're going to beat it, and we're going to go on for justice in this country for all of our people.

Rep. GERALDINE FERRARO, (D) New York: The bill is wrong because it's discriminatory. The bill is wrong because it targets in on individuals just because they are who they are. The bill is wrong because it looks to deprive individuals of their ability to get jobs. The bill is wrong because it does not look at family relationships. The bill is wrong, wrong, wrong.

MICHELS [voice-over]: Jesse Jackson followed Mondale to the podium and told the caucus members that they were right not to boycott the vote.

Rev. JESSE JACKSON, Democratic presidential candidate: Boycotting is the politics of despair. Why spend all the time fighting for the right to get in and then volunteer to walk out? In other words, it's not the absence of your vote that's your power. It is the presence of your vote that's your power.

MacNEIL: Mondale also wasn't taking any chances with the convention's 750 black delegates, whom he largely shares with Jesse Jackson. Jackson picked up 36 Illinois delegates today when they followed Chicago's black mayor, Harold Washington, into Jackson's camp. With Jackson continuing to urge blacks to support him on the first ballot, Mondale appealed to the black caucus and promised to name a black co-chairman of his campaign. He criticized President Reagan, and said he would replace Reagan appointees on the Civil Rights Commission if he's elected in November. Then followed a highly emotional scene. After Modale left, Coretta Scott King, widow of the slain civil rights leader, talked to the black caucus in support of Mondale. And the woman who is one of the most revered symbols of the civil rights struggle of the '60s was booed. As tears came into her eyes, Jesse Jackson stepped in. This is how it went.

CORETTA SCOTT KING: My heart is heavy. [long silence] For 29 years, I've been involved in the human and civil rights struggle, and I think my record speaks for itself. And all I'm saying to you, those of you who have wronged Andrew Young, then you need to say, "I'm sorry. I beg your pardon." [jeers]

Rev. JACKSON: It's a source of embarrassment to me for those of you who respect me and my leadership, for you to boo or hiss any black leader in this country. When I think about the roads I've walked with Andrew and the leadership of Mrs. King, and her home bombed, her husband assassinated, children raised by a widow, she deserves the right to be heard. She's earned that right.

LEHRER: Last night's Jackson speech, 50 minutes of political evangelical emotional oratory. Not all loved it, surely, but all who heard it will remember it, surely, particularly those who were on the floor of the convention when it was delivered. And that includes correspondent Elizabeth Brackett's new friends in the Arkansas delegation. Jackson's Impact

Rev. JACKSON: I ask for your vote on the first ballot as a vote for a new direction for this party and this nation, a vote of conviction, a vote of conscience, but I will be proud to support the nominee of this convention for the president of the United States of America.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: The answer had finally come. The Baptist preacher turned politician, who had rallied thousands of blacks to his candidacy and his cause, who had been accused of dividing the Democratic Party, had made his decision to support the nominee. And there was more.

Rev. JACKSON: If there were occasions when my grape turned into a raisin and my joy bell lost its resonance, please forgive me. Charge it to my head and not to my heart -- my head, so limited in its finitude; my heart, which is boundless in its love for the human family. I am not a perfect servant; I am a public servant doing my best against the odds. As I develop and serve, be patient. God is not finished with me yet.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: It was an appeal for forgiveness that was understood in Arkansas, a sign of strength, said Jackson floor leader Odies Wilson, not of weakness.

ODIES WILSON, Jackson whip: Jesse is a man of God. I could understand that. I mean, if you would have -- if you would serve people, you should be big enough to ask for their forgiveness.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: There were harsh words as well as soft one, but the words were aimed at Ronald Reagan, not Walter Mondale.

Rev. JACKSON: We must judge people by their values and their contribution. Don't leave anybody out. I would rather have Roosevelt in the wheelchair than Reagan on a horse.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: There were words that Jackson supporters had heard many times before. But on this night the whole country heard them, and that made it different.

Rev. JACKSON: I'm more convinced than ever that we can win. We have fought up the rough side of the mountain. We can win.

Mr. WILSON: The whole nation sees why we follow Jesse, you know, why we saw that the impossible was possible. And like I say, regardless of what happens tomorrow night, we've already won.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: As the words continued to pour out, Jackson appeared to struggle to make the year or years of effort worth it for his supporters.

Rev. JACKSON: Our time has come. Our faith, hope and dreams will prevail. Our time has come. Weeping has endured for a night, but now joy cometh in the morning. Our time has come. Give me your tried, give me your poor, your huddled masses who yearn to breathe free, and come November, there will be a change because our time has come! Thank you, and God bless you!

WILLIAM CLEMMONS, Jackson delegate: We are really proud of him. We felt that we had a hard road to go from the very beginning, but we knew that this convention would generally come to this end, a unified purpose and for all Americans, for all those Democrats.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: When the words ended, the feeling did not. [signing of hymn] The Jackson speech brought a collective sigh of relief from Mondale strategists. Arkansas Mondale Whip Bruce Lindsey knew his job had just become easier.

BRUCE LINDSEY: I think Reverend Jackson has set the tone for unity, and I believe we'll come out of this convention after Senator Hart's speech tomorrow night and after Vice President Mondale's acceptance speech on Thursday night a unified party.

BRACKETT [voice-over]: It was a unity that had not been assured earlier in the evening. Jackson delegates had lost on three of their proposed changes in the party platform. [interviewing] You told me this afternoon that there may not be enthusiastic support for Mondale if the platform planks went down. Does this speech change that?

Mr. LINDSEY: I think so. I think this speech indicated that he's for the Democratic Party.

MacNEIL: The delirious reception for Jackson was in poignant contrast to the treatment Andrew Young received earlier. The current mayor of Atlanta, former U.N. ambassador and associate of Martin Luther King, was booed from the floor of the convention by black delegates. Black Jackson supporters were expressing their anger that, with all his credentials in the civil rights movement, Young was supporting Mondale against Jackson on a civil rights issue -- runoff primaries. Jackson wanted them abolished, the Mondale majority didn't, and it won. But winning cost black Democrats this wounding spectacle.

ANDREW YOUNG, Mayor of Atlanta: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [jeers] Thank you very much. This is a discussion, ladies and gentlemen, about voting rights. And the very fact that we're having this discussion is an indication of how far we have come as a party. We are in the process of opening up this party and declaring to the nation that we are going to be a party that sees to it that all Americans vote. That's the responsibility of our party. It's a responsibility to see to it that every citizen's vote counts. Pundits Ponder

LEHRER: It's Gergen-Baron time now, a bipartisan analysis of today's events and the convention generally thus far, from two bright minds of politics, David Gergen and Alan Baron. Gergen is the former communications director at the Reagan White House, now at the American Enterprise Institute. Baron, a past official in Democratic campaigns, now publishes The Baron Report. First, let's talk about Gary Hart and then come back to Andrew Young and the Jesse Jackson situation. This is his day. Where is he today? Where has he arrived, in your opinion, Alan Baron?

ALAN BARON: Nowhere. I mean, if you have to put it one place, I think that he is someone who very astutely, certainly more than Mondale, more than most candidates this year, understood where the country was and where the Democratic Party was in terms of ideas. And I think he had a very good understanding and vision of the country. But I think that politically he has demonstrated weakness or at least some misjudgments along the way that didn't measure up to his astuteness in understanding the country. He ran as a candidate who'd be independent, and as soon as he started to come close to winning, he started to play Walter Mondale's brand of politics, of appealing to interest groups and so forth, and it got him a lot of trouble. I think his ideas are very strong, but I think his political future is very dubious.

DAVID GERGEN: I must say I disagree. I think he has a leg up on '88. It seems to me that if Walter Mondale loses this year that he has an opportunity over the next four years to be a leader within the Democratic Party in developing more concrete ideas for the future. That's very important to him. I think he's got an opportunity to show that he's a more mature individual than some people thought. The irony and the unfortunate part of this, it seems to me -- and of this convention -- for Gary Hart is that on Monday night, in 40 minutes, in a speech that the delegates are still talking about, Mario Cuomo of New York has done as much for himself in 1988 and has put himself in as strongly competitive position for 1988 as Gary Hart has through months and months of long compaigning.

LEHRER: Let's talk about speeches. You have the Cuomo speech, as you mentioned and then last night Jesse Jackson's emotional speech. I mean, what -- Gary Hart has already got some real competition to overcome, does he not? Just as making a speech --

Mr. BARON: Well, in terms of -- yeah. And Gary Hart -- Gary Hart -- what strength Gary Hart does have is not the kind of strength that translates into a hot audience at a partisan Democratic convention. Mario Cuomo's speech was a history lesson. It was saying, "This is a glorious Democratic Party; it's accomplished all of these wonderful things." And that was the ideal kind of speech to send chills through the spinesof Democrats and to get them to their feet in an auditorium, and even Democrats in living rooms across the country. But they're only 40% of the country, or so, are Democrats, if you include them all, and there's a lot of other people that say, "Well, what does Mario Cuomo say about the future rather than the past?" That wasn't his job as keynoter. Gary Hart's got to discuss that, and the better that Gary Hart discusses issues that appeal to people who aren't Democrats, the cooler he is on television, the more conversational he is, all those strengths, on one side of the coin, make it less likely that he's the kind of person that's going to mobilize a crowd of partisan Democrats in a hot auditorium. Somebody who can do both is, I think, very rare.

Mr. GERGEN: Yeah, but Alan, Cuomo -- Hart does have a real opportunity tonight. It seems to me, as you suggested, Cuomo really staked out the heritage of the party. He sort of takes the mantle of the party and what it represents coming out of the New Deal, and it was very much a look back at the traditional Democratic Party, and now Hart tonight can begin to stake out the future of that party. And that's an opportunity. There's an opening there for him. The early word on his speech is that it's quite constructive, it is positive, and it's very forward looking. He does want to talk to the younger generation. He, in effect, wants to become a tribune for the --

Mr. BARON: Well, I think that's right. But what I'm saying is you're unlikely, with that kind of a speech, appealing to younger people, most of whom are at home -- and he can make a very strong and good appeal -- but that's not likely to bring machinists and autoworkers who are delegates to this convention out of their chairs.

Mr. GERGEN: That's right, but it can help in New Hampshire in 1988.

Mr. BARON: It can help in 1984. I think it'll take more -- or '88. I think -- '92, if you believe Mondale is going to win. Of course, then you've got Ferraro 'til 2000, so it takes him a long time.

LEHRER: The unfortunate thing also for Gary Hart is that probably the most commonly asked question today is, the Jackson speech, what did you think of the Jackson speech? I ask you the same question, David Gergen.

Mr. GERGEN: I thought it was -- I did not think it was as good a speech as the one that Cuomo gave on Monday night.But I do think historically it will be more important.This is the first time, to my knowledge, that a black man has had an opportunity to command the airwaves of this country for an hour and pour out his heart and his soul. And I thought that was just -- it was a marvelous moment in American politics, a marvelous hour in American politics. And, whether you agree or disagree with that, it seems to me that it was a real milestone.

Mr. BARON: I think the speech did something that very, very few speeches do. I think it could have made a difference in human relations in the real world between the black and Jewish communities. And I don't know of very few speeches, when you go back through history, that really have an impact beyond words. And I think that was very important. The second thing he did, which was not unique -- it showed good political judgment -- was what John Lindsay did when he came from behind to be mayor, he stood up and said, "I made a mistake, and I apologize." And let me tell you, the American people -- I mean, you could do almost anything, and when a politician stands up and is willing to say "I made a mistake and I apologize," because candidates are not generally a humble group of people to start with, when they stand up and say this, I think it brings a tremendous amount of respect from people. That's politically shrewd --

Mr. GERGEN: John who?

Mr. BARON: Well, he didn't apologize enough or he kept making more, you know, you make too many mistakes, you can't -- you know, it doesn't work. But the first time apology is a pretty good system, pretty good reaction from people. People are pretty forgiving. But the Jewish-black thing I thing is -- I think he made a difference in the way blacks feel and Jews feel, and that was important.

Mr. GERGEN: I had a sense talking to some of the Jewish delegates and so on, some of the Jewish members of the press that this isn't over, in their view. A lot depends on whether he's consistent now through the end of the campaign. That one apology is fine: it helps. But that they really are looking for consistency now in behavior over the next several months.

LEHRER: What do you make of this stunning thing? We had the Andrew Young episode yesterday and then today Coretta Scott King -- Jesse Jackson had to step forward, as we saw, for the black caucus. What's going on?

Mr. GERGEN: I think it's difficult for us who are not black and who have not gone through some of the searing experiences they've had to really judge. It seems to me that it really is an argument and a squabble within a family that's very emotionally tied to each other. I think it will pass. But it's -- I feel very reluctant to sit in judgment on that particular dispute.

LEHRER: Do you share that reluctance?

Mr. BARON: I would.I would suggest that Andrew Young is in a very, very unique and difficult position. You know, Tom Bradley didn't get any boos, and he supported Walter Mondale, because Tom Bradley is a politician in much the sense of most American politicians, who was not elected from a black district, as mayor of L.A., who was elected with a white constituency, and who never -- rose up as a policeman and so forth, and never as a leader of a black movement. Jesse Jackson, on the other side from Tom Bradley, strictly rose up as a leader from a black movement. And Andrew Young is in a very difficult position because he began through the civil rights movement. And now he is mayor of a city, and he's representing a much broader constituency. And it's the toughest political position of all because the people in Atlanta and Georgia and his voters expect him to be a mayor. And the movement that he came from expects him to lead the movement. And that makes him very tough position.

Mr. GERGEN: I think there's likely to be a rallying behind him and behind Mrs. King, and I also think that Jesse Jackson helped himself today. That was a very decent statement that he made.

LEHRER: Someone suggested to Robin today that it could mean also, though, that Andrew Young and company are out of touch with black political thinking right now as it relates to Jesse Jackson.

Mr. GERGEN: I'm not sure that's the case. A lot depends on -- you know, the people that booed him, of course, were the Jackson partisans, and they clearly were not controlled by Jackson. Jackson wasn't asking them to do that. And the way, you know -- Andy Young is a very popular mayor of Atlanta among blacks as well as whites, and it does not seem to me as mayor he's shown that he's out of touch at all. He's governed quite well.

Mr. BARON: I think the overall black population is very pragmatic. As from the polls that show that the vast majority of blacks, if it came down to the nomination -- I'd be willing to bet that if itcame down and you asked the Jackson delegates at this convention, " All right, Ronald Reagan's on the ballot. Now you've got to choose, and it's up to you. Who's going to be the nominee against him, Mondale or Jackson?" Well, people think -- I don't think a poll would ever get this answer, and it probably sounds crazy, I bet they'd pick Mondale, because they're pragmatic at the end. They want to win, they know Jackson can't be elected president. But Andrew Young is in a tough position. The more you inspire, the more you're a leader of a black body in this world, women's audience or any group, the more you're their person, the less you're likely to be a politician who can appeal beyond that, you know. The more you're a hero of the librals, the less likely you are to win the moderates.

Mr. GERGEN: May I -- it seems to me, you know, what's so interesting about this discussion that we're having is that what we're talking about is Gary Hart and we're talking about Andy Young, and really what is the important thing that is happening today is that Walter Mondale is going to be nominated by his party. And the interesting thing that's happening in this convention, it seems to me, is that with the Cuomo speech, with the Jackson speech, Mondale has been fading into the background. He is not a strong presence in this convention right now. I think he is going to gain titular control of his party tonight, but he does not have emotional control of the party. And that really is putting an awful lot of pressure on him, for Thursday night when he comes with his acceptance speech.

LEHRER: Is it pressure, do you think -- how would you expect him to respond? Do you think he would rise to the occasion?

Mr. GERGEN: Well, I think that's the real question. I think that in order to come out of this with a strong -- with strong momentum for the fall he now has to give the most dynamic, most effective, most powerful speech of his life.

Mr. BARON: Well, and he's got -- he's got a conflict, you see. I don't think that Walter Mondale can give a Mario Cuomo/Ted Kennedy-type New Deal 50 years, "this is the party of" speech on Thursday night if he wants to win in November, and win in November, he's got to get the Hart people, the moderate people, the kind of -- the suburbs, the groups that aren't going to respond to that. So I want to tell you something. If they say Walter Mondale didn't get as heated, as passionate a response as Mario Cuomo tomorrow night when he gives his acceptance sppech, that won't necessarily be proof that he's done well, but it won't be proof that he's done poor if that TV speech reaches into the living room of a 35-year-old white-collar worker who's got reservations about Ronald Reagan but isn't sure about Mondale.

Mr. GERGEN: I think it's essential he comes out of here tomorrow night with a tremendous show of enthusiasm on the floor. I think given what's happened over the last several days it's absolutely essential.

LEHRER: But do you think it has to be emotional?

Mr. GERGEN: I think there has to be true emotion demonstrated tomorrow night, that they -- these people really want -- what's happened here so far is an awful lot of people, an awful lot of the main speakers we've seen at the podium, have spent all their time tearing down Ronald Reagan and very little time building up Walter Mondale. And it seems to me there's a curious aspect to this convention, that there's -- the party seems to be coming together, but it's not clear they're coming together behind Mondale.

Mr. BARON: Or positively for anything other than -- but I would say that, you know, I think it'll look very enthusiastic. It looked very enthusiastic for McGovern in '72, even though 38% of the people were his delegates. The rest were either switched to him or were Humphrey or Jackson or something. It'll look very enthusiastic, and as strong as television is, it can't always measure the exact degree of tears in eyes. I don't think there'll be a lot of tears in eyes on Thursday night, but it'll look pretty --

Mr. GERGEN: There were tears in the eyes last night.

Mr. BARON: Yeah, but there won't be Thursday night, I don't think.

LEHRER: Walter Mondale is certainly running things here, David. Every time there's been a vote, every time there's been any kind of issue, he has always prevailed.

Mr. GERGEN: That's right, he has. And I think, you know, to be fair to him, he has worked very quietly behind the scenes and established control over the convention in terms of the votes. All I'm saying is I don't think he's gained the emotional kind of build here, an emotional lift that he needed, and that's very important to his kind of candidacy. He's coming across as very much what we discussed here before, as a consensus figure, someone who tries to claim things down as opposed to someone who tries to liven them up. And that's what he needs now out of here, is a little fire.

LEHRER: David Gergen, Alan Baron, thank you. Robin?

MacNEIL: There are other things happening in the world outside San Francisco today. For those stories we go to Charlayne Hunter-Gault in New York. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: In Washington the Reagan administration picked up the pace of its week of non-campaigning by announcing that the President would hit the road next week with a counterattack against Walter Mondale. Advancing his plans to go on the campaign trail by a month, the President will go to Texas, Georgia and New Jersey, key battlegrounds for the hearts and minds of critical blue-collar and middle-class voters. Campaign spokesman Jim Lake said the schedule change was "not a seat-of-the-pants, knee-jerk reaction" but an "opportune time to set up the contrast between Ronald Reagan and Walter Mondale."

There was some good economic news today that played into the President's campaign theme stressing the country's increasing economic vitality. Housing starts were up 5.3% in June, making 1984 the best year since 1978. But there was also some less-than-good news on the interest-rate front.

Possibly the only thing the President did so far this week without ceremony was today's signing of a bill that makes a small cut in federal deficits. The legislation provides -- I'm sorry, that was out of sequence. We're going back to the president signing the deficit bill today calling for $50 billion in new tax revenues and $13 billion in domestic spending cuts over the next three years. It was billed as the first step in attempts to reduce the deficit by $150 billion through 1987.

On home mortgage rates, they shot up to a two-year high of 14.4%

On both sides of the English channel, seaports were blocked today because of a British dock strike that began as a protest against the use of non-union labor. Hundreds of trucks with rotting cargoes of fruit and vegetables were lined up at ports in France and Belgium. On the British side, dockworkers also tried to prevent passenger cars from driving to the Channel ferry docks. The dock strike began 10 days ago when the dockers boycotted some shipments in support of a strike by coalminers. Non-union workers were brought in, and the dockers walked out at 61 British ports. Trucks were held up at the ports on the continent because the British dockers refused to unload them on their side of the Channel. At the same time, thousands of Britons are eager to get across the Channel for vacation trips, and the situation is developing into a political crisis for Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher. First, a report from Adrian Brown of Visnews.

ADRIAN BROWN [voice-over]: Ferry traffic on both sides of the Channel is at a virtual standstill with passengers and holiday-makers being caught up in the action. In Calais a group of truckers blocked approaches to the car ferry terminal in protest at being left stranded by the strike. The dockers union say they wanted only freight traffic to be disrupted, but the truckers say they're as anxious to get home as anyone else. Ferries are now being rerouted in an effort to avoid the worst of the jams. Hundreds of truckdrivers are now stranded, their cargoes rotting, their tempers fraying. More than 150 fill all available parking space in Calais, with a similar number down the coast at Cherbourg. There is very little they can do and very little apparently being done for them. Independent operators say they stand to lose everything they've got and they're being unfairly singled out as part of an industrial strategy aimed against the British government.

HUNTER-GAULT: The dock strike is only one of the labor problems causing political problems for Prime Minister Thatcher's government. There is also a long and frequently violent strike in the coal fields, and a legal and political argument about wehther unions are entitled to organize the employees of Britain's Center For Electronic Surveillance. Strikes and violence began in the coal fields 19 weeks ago in protest against the Thatcher government's plans to shut down state-run mines that do not show a profit. More than 140,000 miners walked out and then tried to keep others from going to work. The police fought to keep the mines open, and leaders of the mine workers tried to make a political crisis by saying they wanted to use the strike to force Prime Minister Thatcher out of office, as a coal strike did to another prime minister 10 years ago. Young Reflects

MacNEIL: We've just been joined from the Moscone Convention Center by Mayor Andrew Young of Atlanta, whom you saw earlier in the program as he spoke to the convention yesterday being booed by delegates from the floor. Mayor Young, can you hear me?

ANDREW YOUNG: Yes, I can.

MacNEIL: Good evening. You had the unhappy experience of being booed last night from the convention floor. Coretta Scott King was booed today when she spoke to the black caucus.How do you explain this?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, I think you can explain it a lot of ways, but the main way is that you've got a lot of new people coming into the political system for the first time that don't know the basic etiquette. They don't know how they got there in the first place; they don't remember any of the history of the struggle for voting rights or opening up the convention that Coretta and her husband were involved in. And so they're kind of, you know, unwashed. They're also kind of frustrated, because they really believe that Jesse Jackson ought to be president, and if it wasn't for the fact that he's black he would be. And that may be seen as naive, but basically it's an expression of a lot of pent-up frustration and resentment.

MacNEIL: How did you feel yesterday when that happened to you? What were your own personal emotions about it?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, my own personal emotion was that -- while it was going on was that you don't let anybody intimidate you. You make your speech. And I've been through this a number of times before. In fact, I've been a part of this with Dr. King in the 1964 convention and again in the 1968 convention. This is typical for a convention, but in the 1964 convention, when we basically had difficulty explaining to the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party why we felt it was more important to accept a compromise to get Lyndon Johnson elected than to seat the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party after three people had given their lives for the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, it was in some ways a lot rougher than it was yesterday. Of course it was Dr. King bearing the burden. I think history bore out, though, that we got a Civil Rights Act and a Voting Rights Act, and we wouldn't have gotten that if we hadn't put some of our frustrations down and gotten Lyndon Johnson elected. I think we're almost at that point now.

MacNEIL: Is it possible that you and Mrs. King and the established leadership from the civil rights movement of the '60s are less in touch with the black rank and file or grass roots supporters than Jesse Jackson is?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, maybe so, but for instance, they are standing -- I mean, we were not in touch in 1964 either. And if you're going to practice the politics of reason, and if you're going to deliver to those poor people, you going to have to help them get rid of their frustrations and you're going to have to absorb some of their frustrations. I think the problem is not who can lead. The problem is getting anything done for the poor of America, getting the political system open. I think Jesse Jackson's done a very good job of raising expectations and aspirations. The system is still not open. And what I was saying is that the way we opened it to get them in the party in the first place was through study commissions such as the Mikulski Commission and the Hunt Commission, and the only thing that would really get rid of dual primaries and the voting disfranchisement is really to take that same time and in-depth study to resolve a very complicated issue. They're impatient. They want to come in now. They want to end dual primaries. I understand that. But, frankly, ending dual primaries is not necessarily in their interest in every place in America. And there is a Joint Center for Political Studies analysis of that that comes down really saying that there is a problem. Dual primaries are discriminatory in many instances, but in many ways they help to establish justice and elect more black elected officials. You don't deal with that through a simple floor resolution. You work out the details.It does take a little time. And you have to absorb the impatience of people in that process.

MacNEIL: You've just been, as I understand it, in a meeting with other black leaders of the blacks at this convention. Is there any danger, do you see -- from the Mondale supporters' point of view, is there any danger of a significant number of blacks abstaining on the first ballot and endangering Mr. Mondale's nomination?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, I think there may be some. They wouldn't abstain. They would possibly vote for Jesse Jackson on the first ballot as he has appealed.

MacNEIL: Is that a real danger?

Mayor YOUNG: I think it's a real possibility. I don't know how much of a danger it is, and I don't know what that would do. I don't know how many votes we've got otherwise, or I don't even know who'sdoing the counting on how many votes are there for the first ballot.

MacNEIL: Is the Mondale camp worried about it?

Mayor YOUNG: I have not been in touch with them.

MacNEIL: I see. You told us in an interview last fall -- you told Charlayne Hunter-Gault in an interview then -- that you didn't support Jesse Jackson running for president because you didn't think one should run as a black presidential candidate. Do you still think it was wrong, after it's turned out -- the way it's turned out, for him to run?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, no, I think his running has made many positive contributions and the potential there is enormous. I think this is the difficult part. I always knew it would be easy up to the convention. The problem we have is the problem we had in 1968 with Hubert Humphrey.Can we get the party together quickly enough? We said in 1968 that if the election had been a week later, some said as little as three days later, Hubert Humphrey would have won it. But we spent too much time wrangling over insignificant issues, and we ended up with Nixon defeating Hubert Humphrey. Black people were set back more than a decade, maybe as much as two decades, by the foolishness of the 1968 convention. Getting out of this convention without that kind of foolishness is the task that's before us now.

MacNEIL: Has the Reverend Jackson helped by his speech last night?

Mayor YOUNG: He helped enormously by his speech last night and by his speech again today to a meeting of black and hispanic delegates. And so he is very positive in this process, and I have no criticism of his role. But we still have to get the Mondale camp together. They're not together. People who normally should be integrated into one party are still kind of struggling. The Hart faction is going to be taking its day in the sum tonight. We've got to get them back in tonight as well, because we need everybody together to win in November.

MacNEIL: Mayor Young, is -- what does Jesse Jackson do from here?What kind of role is he going to play? Robert Strauss, former Democratic chairman, suggested on television this morning that he deserved a role almost as big as a vice presidential role in the campaign in order to satisfy him and his black followers, to get them out in November. What do you feel about that?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, what I feel about it is that there's an enormous role that can be played by Jesse and all of his supporters and all of us in getting out a big vote. And I don't mean black vote. I think we do Jesse a disservice when we make him just a leader of the black community. What we saw last night was the beginning of a rainbow coalition. We saw a lot of people who felt disfranchised and ignored being included. I think that's an enormous asset, and I think we should be working with the mayors of America and with the members of Congress and with the Democratic governors, and he becomes something of another rallying force.

MacNEIL: Is he now the leader of the black community in this country?

Mayor YOUNG: Well, he certainly is one of the leaders, maybe the pre-eminent leader. But you have to say that Tom Bradley got as many votes in California alone as Jesse got from coast to coast. So you can't say that Tom Bradley is not a leader. You can't say that Wilson Goode is not a leader. Basically they are not civil rights leaders; they are political leaders with long-established constituencies. They lead black and white alike. Jesse is moving into that realm. But up to now and through this period, essentially his power has been confined, and his influence, largely to the black community. Last night's speech should help him get beyond that. And because it was the first time many Americans heard him make a speech from beginning to end.

MacNEIL: Finally, Mayor Young, Mr. Mondale told the black caucus today that he was going to appoint a black co-chairman for the campaign. Has he offered you that job?

Mayor YOUNG: No, he hasn't offered me that job and I wouldn't be free to take it. I'm the mayor of the city of Atlanta.

MacNEIL: Yeah. Do you know who is going to be the black co-chairman?

Mayor YOUNG: No, I don't, but we need more than a black co-chairman. We need black involvement, we need female involvement. Even though we've got a woman vice president, the staff still does not reflect access and openness to women, to minorities, not even to many white males. So the problem before the Mondale campaign now is to open up and become a campaign of the entire Democratic Party, and I hope they'll be doing that in the next week or so.

MacNEIL: You feel the Mondale staff is still a bit too closed and restrictive?

Mayor YOUNG: I think that's inevitable coming out of a campaign. There's got to be room for the Jackson followers and workers; there's got to be room for the Gary Hart workers, and there's got to be room for some of those who are neutral and independent. We've got to get together, and I think Cuomo gave us the blueprint for that. I think Jesse Jackson put the first cornerstone on it. Gary Hart should do the same tonight, and hopefully Mondale can tie it all up in a victorious campaign tomorrow night.

MacNEIL: Well, Mayor Young, thank you very much for joining us. We have to leave it there.

Thank you, that is the end of our program. Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: Good night, Robin. And we will see you tomorrow night from San Francisco. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.