The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

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police i'm dorothy writings the president of the league of women voters the sponsor of this final presidential debates of the nineteen eighty four campaign between republican ronald reagan and democrat walter mondale our panelists for tonight's debate on defense and foreign policy issues are georgie and dire syndicated columnist for universal press syndicate marvin kalb cheap diplomatic correspondent for nbc news morton contracting executive editor of the new republic magazine

and henry true at diplomatic correspondent for the baltimore sun edwin newman formerly of nbc news and now a syndicated columnist for king features is our moderator erin currently writing slightly brief word about a procedure tonight the first question will go to mr mondale he'll have to not have minister apply then the panel member who put the question last fall a plan to divide will be limited to one minute after that the same question will report to president reagan again there will be a follow up men each man will have one minute for rebuttal the second question will go to president reagan first apple that the alternating will continue at the end there will be four minutes of nations with president reagan going last we have asked the question is to be brief once again this guy or your question to mr mondello it's mondale to related questions and the crucial

issue of central america you in the democratic party has said that the only passage where that ran the civil wars in central america should be on the economic development and negotiations with perhaps a quarantine of marxist nicaragua do you believe that these dancers would in anyway saw the bitter conflicts there you really believe that there is no need to resort to force but oil are not these allusions to central americans' annoying problems simply again two weeks and too late i believe that the question over simplifies the difficulties of what we must do in central america are objectives on of the district than the democracies stop there are communist and other extremists influences and stabilize the community and that in that area to do that we need a three pronged attack one is military assistance to our friends who are being pressured secondly a strong and sophisticated

economic aid program and human rights program that offers a better life and a sharper alternative to the alternatives offered by the totalitarians who poses and finally a strong diplomatic effort that pursues the possibilities a piece in the air as one of the big disagreements that we have with the president that they have not pursue a diplomatic opportunities either with an el salvador or as between the countries and have the last time during which we might've been able to achieve pete's this brings up the whole question of what presidential leadership is all about i think the lesson in central america this recent embarrassment in nicaragua where we are giving instructions for hired assassins hire criminals and the rest all of this has strengthened

our opponents a president must not only assure the top we must also be wise and smart in the exercise of that all we saw the same thing in lebanon where we spent a good deal of america's assets but because the leadership of this government did not pursue wise policy we've been humiliated and our opponents are strong the bottom line of national strength is of the president must be intimate he must lead when a president doesn't know it's every missiles are recalling all says that seventy percent of our strategic forces or conventional discovers three years into his administration that our arms control and efforts have failed because he didn't know the most soviet missiles rumble and these are things a president must know to command the press is called the commander in chief is called that because he's supposed to be in

charge of the facts and run our government and strength in our nation ms ronda becca run the question just a little bit since world war two every conflict that we as americans had been involved with has been a non conventional or your regular terms and yet we keep fighting in conventional or traditional german military terms of these central american wars are very much in the same pattern as china's lebanon is a rawness cuba in the early days you see any possibility that we're going to realize the change in warfare in our time or react to it in those terms you absolutely must which is why i responded your first question the way i did it more much more complex you must understand the region you must understand the politics here you must provide a strong alternative and you must show strength and all of the same time that's why i object to the covert action in nicaragua

that's a classic example of a strategy it's embarrassed does strengthen our opposition and it undermine the moral authority of our people our country and the region strength requires knowledge committee we've seen in the nicaraguan example a policy that is actually heard us strikes in our opposition and undermine the moral authority of our country in that region mr president in the last few months that has seen more and more witcher policies in central america were beginning to work it just at this moment we are confronted with the extraordinary story of a cia gorilla manual for the anti sandinista contreras who we're backing which advocates not only assassinations of sandinistas but the hiring of criminals to assassinate the grill as we're supporting in order to create martyrs is is not in effect our own state supported terrorism no i'm glad you asked that question because i know is on many people's

minds i have ordered an investigation i know the cia is already going forward with what we have government down in nicaragua who is on contract to the cia advising supposedly on military tactics the countries and he drew up this manual it was turned over to the agency head in of the cia in nicaragua lot to be proud of and the number of pages where excise by that agency head there are the man in charge and he said it on up you're the cia were more pages where excise before it was printed but somewhere out there were twelve of the original copies that got out down there and were not submitted for this printing process by the cia now those the details as we have it and as soon as we have an investigation and find out where any blame lies for the few that did

not get excited to change we certainly are going to do something about that we'll take the proper action of the property i was very interested to hear about central america and our process down there and i thought for a moment that instead of a debate that was going to find them monday and complete agreement with what we're doing because the plan that he has outlined is the one we've been following for quite sometime including diplomatic process is throughout central america and working closely with the cutter dora grew so i can only tell you about the the manual that we're not in the habit of assigning guilt before there has been proper evidence produced in proof of that guilt but if guilt is established and whoever is guilty or we will treat with that situation then and that they'll be removed president europe implying them that the cia in nicaragua is directing the country's there and also like to to ask

whether having the cia investigate its own manual in such a sensitive area is not sort of like sending the the fox into the chicken coop a second time i'm afraid i misspoke when i said a cia to nicaragua there's not someone they're directing all this activity there are as you know see i'm an amen stationed in other countries in the world and certainly in central america and so it was a man down there in that area that this was delivered to and he recognized that you know what was in that manual was direct contravention of my own executive order in december of nineteen eighty one that we would have nothing to do with regard to political says assassinations mr manuel your bottle what is the president charges were doing when he takes his oath of office he raises his right hand takes an elf oath of office to take

care to faithfully execute the laws where president though everything that a president has to know those things that are essential oh to his leadership and the enforcement of our laws this manual several thousands of which were produced was distributed ordering political assassinations hire criminals and other forms of terrorism some of it was excised but the part dealing with political terrorism was contained how can this happen how can something as serious occur in menstruation and have a president united states in a situation like this say he didn't know a president must know these things i don't know which is worse not knowing or knowing and not stopping and what about the mining of the harbors and nicaragua which violated international this is hurt this country and it presents both to commit mr president your bubble yes i have so many things there to respond to i'm going to pick on something you said earlier you've been all over

the country repeating something that i will admit the press has also been repeating that i believe that nuclear missiles could be fired and then called back i never ever conceived of such a thing i never said any such thing and a discussion of our strategic arms negotiations i said the submarines carry missiles and airplanes carrying missiles were more conventional type weapons not as destabilizing as the land based missiles and that they were also weapons that ore carriers that if they were sent out and there was a change you could call them back before they had launched their missiles but i hope that from here on you will no longer be saying that particular thing which is absolutely false how anyone could think that any sane person would believe you could call back a nuclear missile i think is as ridiculous as the as the whole concept has been so thank you forgive me a chance to straighten the record i'm sure that you'll appreciate that mr kalb <unk> caviar question to

president reagan's president you have often describe the soviet union as a powerful evil empire intent on world domination but this year you have said and i quote if they want to keep their mickey mouse system that's ok with me which is it mr president do you want to contain them within their present borders and perhaps try to reestablish detente or what goes for a detente would you really want a role but there are in power i have said a number of occasions exactly what i believe about the soviet union i retract nothing that i've said i believe that many of the things they have done are evil in any concept of morality that we have but i also recognize that as the two great superpowers in the world we have to live with each other an eye toward mr ramy we don't like their system they don't like arts and when i go to change their system and they sure but i'll try to change us but between us we can either destroy the world or we can save it and i suggested that certainly

it was to their common interest along with us to avoid a conflict and would tempt to save the world and remove the nuclear weapons and i think that perhaps we establish a little better understanding i think that in dealing with the soviet union one has to be realistic i know that was to mondale in the past has made statements as if they were just people like ourselves in if we were kind and good and it's something nice they would make and respond accordingly and the result was unilateral disarmament we canceled the b one and the previous administration what we get for it nothing the soviet union has been engaged in the biggest military buildup in the history of man at the same time that we tried the policy of unilateral disarmament of weakness if you will and now we are putting up a defense of our own and i made it very plain we see gaza perry already we simply are going to provide a deterrent

so that would be too costly for them if they are nursing any ideas of aggression against us know they claim they're not animated find them we're not wet the serve has been no change in my attitude oh i just thought when i came into office it was time that there was some realistic talk to and about the soviet union and we did get their attention president perhaps the other side of the corner related questions or since we're or to the vital interests of the united states have always been defined by treaty commitments and by presidential proclamation is aside from what is obvious such as nato for example which countries which regions in the world do you regard as vital national interests of this country meaning that you would send american troops to fight there if they were in there you're our now you've added a hypothetical or the yen kalb about that where we would send troops in the fight i am not going to make their

decisions to what the tactics could be but obviously there are a number of areas in the world that are of importance to us one is the middle east and that is of interest to the whole western world in the industrialized nations because of the great supply of energy and on which dominated and then be our neighbors here in america are vital to us so we're working right now and trying to be of help in southern africa with regard to the independence of namibia and the removal of the cuban surrogates the thousands of them from and go so i can say there are great many interests i believe that we have a great interest in the pacific basin that is where i think the future of the world lives but i'm not going to pick out one in advance hypothetically say oh yes we would send it the troops there the us commando you

have described the soviet leaders as an encore being cynical ruthless and dangerous suggesting almost total lack of trust in them in that case what makes you think that the annual summit meetings with them that you proposed will result in agreements that would satisfy the interests of this country because the only type grains to reach with the soviet union of the types that are specifically define so we know exactly what they must do something to full verification which means we know every day whether they're living up to it and follow ups were every find suggestions that they're violating it and the strongest possible terms i have no illusions about the soviet union leadership or the nature of that steak there a taco and a ruthless adversary and we must be prepared to meet that challenge and i would ride part with the president is that despite all those differences we must this past present for this would've done made on the common ground of survival that's where the

president his poll was practically every arms control agreement by every president of all political parties since the bomb went off you know completes this journey with no progress toward arms control of all that with a very dangerous arms race underway instead there are now over two thousand more warheads pointed us today than there were when he was sworn in and that does not sort of we must be very very realistic in the nature of that leadership but we must grind away and talk to find ways reducing these differences particularly where arms races are concerned and other dangers exercises of so you know there will be no unilateral disarmament under my administration i will keep this nation strong i understand exactly what the soviets are up too but that too is a part of national strength

to do that a president must know what is essential to command and leadership industry and that's where the president's failure to master of my opinion the essential elements of arms control has cost us dearly use four years three years into this administration he said he just discovered that most soviet missiles are landing that's why his proposal to work i invite the american people tomorrow because i will issue the statement quoting president reagan he said exactly what i said he said he said that these missiles were less dangerous than ballistic missiles because you can fire there and you can recall them if you decided there'd been a miscalculation i'm sorry i must know those things related question of them are no longer used in europe you accept the conventional diplomatic wisdom that eastern europe as a soviet sphere of influence in a few do work that i'm on the illustration

realistically do to help the people of eastern europe achieve that human rights that were guaranteed to them as a result of secure courts i think the essential strategy the united states ought not accept any soviet control over eastern europe we are to deal with each of these countries separately we honor pursue strategies with each of the economic and the rest that helped them pull away from their dependence upon the soviet union with a soviet union has acted irresponsibly as they have in many of those countries especially recently in poland i believe we are incensed but western credits extend the soviet union there the market rate make the soviets pay for their irresponsibility that is a very important objective to make certain that we continue to look forward to cut back to progress toward greater independence by these nations and work with each of them separately mr president your bottle yes i'm not going to continue trying to

respond to these weak repetitions of the fossils that have already been stated here but with regard to weapons to mondale would be strong as he said he would be i know that he has a commercial out where he's appearing on the deck of an immense and watching the f fourteens take off that's an image of strength except that if he had had his way when the mammoths was being planned he would've been deep in the water out there because it would've been any minutes to stand down he was against it was against the f fourteen fighter he was against the i'm one tank he was against the b one bomber he wanted a copy salary of the all the military he want to bring home half of the american forces in europe and he has a record of weakness with regard to our national defense that is second to none lead he was on that side virtually throw out all his years in the senate and he opposed even the president carter went toward the end of his term president carter want to increase the defense budget mr manuel your vocal best president i accept your commitment to

peace but i want to accept my commitment to a strong defense i propose our nation's strength but in bike in real terms by double that of the soviet union a play where we disagree it is true over ten years ago i built an la production of the fourteen up a while the plane was flying supposed to wear was supposed to be it was a waste of money on your definition of national strike is to throw money at the defense department my definition of national strength is to make certain that a dollar spent weiss's of dollars worth of defense there's a big difference between the tool to suppress it must manage that but i will keep a stroll but you're not do that unless you come in that budget and make certain we get this break between the uk all five hundred dollars provide our hammer you're not my strength

i would ask the audience not to applaud all it does is take up time that we would like to devote to the debate with the contract he a question to mr mondello mr mondello in an address earlier this year you said that before this country resort to military force and i'm quoting american interests should be sharply defined publicly supported congressionally sanction militarily feasible internationally defensible open to independent scrutiny and alert to regional history mr chiu setting up such a gauntlet of tests here that adversaries could easily suspect that as president you would never use force to protect american interests no overnight effectively every one of those standards is essential to the exercise of power by this country but we can see that in both lebanon and in central america this president exercised american power alright but the management of it was such that our marines were killed we had to leave and humiliation the soviet union became

stronger are terrorists became involved in and was because they did not think through our power should be exercised about heavy work the public with them on a plan at work that we ended up the way we get a similarly in central america what were doing in nicaragua with this covert war which the congress including many republicans have tried to stop his finally end up with a public definition of marriage of american power that hurts us or we get that associated with political assassins and the rest we have to decline for the first time in modern history jurisdiction of the world court because they'll find is guilty of illegal action and our enemies are stricken from all that we need to be strong we need to be prepared to use that strength that we must understand that we are a democracy we are a government by the people and when we move it should be for very severe and extreme reasons that served our national interest and end up with a stronger

country behind it is only in that way we can persevere you've been quoted as saying that you might quarantine nicaragua i'd like to know what that means would you stop soviet ships as president kennedy did in nineteen sixty two and wouldn't that be more dangerous than president reagan's covert war what i'm referring to there is the mutual self defense provisions that exist in the inner american treaty socal real packed the permits the nation's our friends in that region the combined to take steps diplomatic and otherwise to prevent nicaragua when she acts irresponsibly inserting power in other parts of cyber border to take those debts whatever they might be to stop the nicaraguans must know that it is the policy of our government that those be that bad leadership the state behind the boundaries of their nation not interfere

in other nations and by working with all of the nations in the region and like the policies of this administration and i like to practice said they have not supported the girl she issues in that region we will be much stronger because we'll have the moral authority goes with those efforts president reagan you introduced us forces into lebanon as neutral peacekeepers but then you made them combatants on the side of the lebanese government eventually you were forced to withdraw them under fire and now syria has soviet ally as dominant in the country doesn't let in un represent a major failure on the part of your administration and raise serious questions about your capacity as a foreign policy strategist and as commander in chief no morton i don't agree to all of those things first of all when we and our allies the italians the french the united kingdom went into lebanon we went in there at the request of what was left of the lebanese government to be a stabilizing

force while they tried to establish a government but the first part of the first time we went in we went in at their request because the war was going on right in beirut between israel and the plo terrorists is real could not be blamed for that those terrorists have been violating their northern border consistently and israel chase them all the way to the air then we went in with a multinational force to help remove and did remove more than thirty eighteen thousand of those terrorists from lebanon we departed and then the government of lebanon asked us back in as a stabilizing force well established a government and sought to get the foreign forces all the way out of lebanon and that they could then take care of their own borders and we were succeeding we were there for the better part of a year are positioned happen to be at the airport or were occasional sniper hits and sometimes some artillery fire but we did not engage in conflict that was

out of line with our mission i will never send troops anywhere an emission of that kind without telling them that if somebody shoots at them they can darn well sure there and this is what we did we never initiated the kind of action we defend ourselves there but we were succeeding to the point that the lebanese government had been organized if you remember there were the meetings in geneva in which they began to meet with the haskell factional forces and try to put together some kind of a peace plan we were succeeding and that was why the terrorist attacks began there are forces there and that includes syria in my mind oh don't want us to succeed who don't want that kind of a piece with a dominant eleven dominant over its own care atari and so the terrorist act began and led to the one great tragedy when they were killed in the suicide bombing the building then the human model out of my real force withdrew for only one reason we withdrew because we were no longer able to carry out the mission which we had been

set yet but we went in the interest of peace and to keep israel and syria from getting into the sixth war between them and i have no apologies for our going on a peace mission mr president four years ago you criticize president carter for ignoring ample warnings that our diplomats in iran might be taken hostage haven't you done exactly the same thing in lebanon not once but three times with three hundred americans not hostages but dead and you fight swift retaliation against terrorists but doesn't our lack of response suggested you're just bluffing morton know i think there's a great difference between the government of iran threatening our diplomatic personnel and there is a government that you can see you can put your hand in a terrorist situation there are terrorist actions over in that in a recent thirty day period thirty seven terrorist acts and twenty countries have been committed most recent has been the one right in dealing with terrorist yes we would retaliate but only if we can put our finger on the

people responsible and not endangered the lives of innocent civilians there in the various communities in the city of a they wrote a where these terrorists are operating i have just signed legislation to add to our ability to deal along with our allies with this terrorist problem and it's going to take all the nations together just as when we banded together we pretty much resolved the whole problem of oh i just i jeggings some time ago or will the red light went on i could've gone on forever mr manuel your model groucho marx said would you believe me or your own eyes and what we have in lebanon is something that the american people say the joint chiefs' urged the president not to put our troops in their barracks because the wrong difference they heard that they went to and five days before they were killed or said please

take a lot of sectors they admitted that this morning he did not do so reporter following explosion the barracks his goals that we've not taken any of the steps that we should have taken that was the second time then the embassy was blown up a few weeks ago and once again none of the steps that should have been taken were taken and we were worn five days before the explosives were on their way and they were taken the terrorists have won each time president told the terrorists used to retaliate if he didn't they call their bar and the bottom line is the united states were malaysians and our enemies are strong is to present in your model ts first ago monday or should know that the president of the united states did not order the marines into their barracks that was a command decision made by the commanders on the spot based with what they thought was best for the men there and that is one and the other things that you just said about the terrorists

but i'm tempted to ask you what you would do these are unidentified people and after the bomb goes off they're blown to bits because they are suicidal individuals who think that they're going to go to paradise if they perpetrate such an act and lose the life and doing it we are going to as i say we're busy trying to find the centers where these operations stem from and retaliation will be taken but we're not going to simply kill some people to say oh look we got even we wanna know when we retaliate that were retaliating with those who were responsible of the terrorist acts and terrorist acts are such that our own united states capitol in washington has been bombed twice mr trudeau your question to present were like the president i want to raise an issue that they could be lurking out there for two or three weeks and test it specifically a national security guards you already are the oldest president in history and some of her staff say you're tired at your most recent

encounter with mr monday i recall yet that president kennedy you had to go for days on end with very little sleep during the cuban missile crisis is there any doubt in your mind that you would be able to function in such circumstances navajo was true american i want you know that also i will not make age an issue of this campaign i am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience it's oh ah oh i still that time i might add a true i might add that it was seneca aura was cicero i don't know which it said it was not for the elders' correcting the mistakes of the young there would be no state but whether i like it for the fans of dry cat seven before those over and another question we have

learned to mondale have already disagree about what you had to say about recalling submarine launch missiles another summer issue out there that relates to you were it is said at least that you were unaware that they soviet capital a car was based on land based missiles first is that correct secondly if it is correct that you inform yourself in the meantime in thirty is it even necessary for the president to be so intimately involved with the details yes this had to do with our disarmament talks and the whole controversy about land missiles came out because we thought the strategic nuclear weapons the most destabilizing of the land based approach of thumb about them and somebody blows up twenty minutes later so we thought that would be simpler to negotiate first with those and then we made it plain a second phase take up a submarine launched the air the airborne missiles the soviet union to our surprise and not just mine made it plain when we brought this up that they place they thought a greater reliance on

the land based missiles and therefore they wanted a couple three and we agreed we said all right if that's what you want to do but it was a surprise to us because they outnumbered a sixty four to thirty six and submarines and twenty percent more bombers capable of carrying nuclear missiles than we head so why should we believe that they place that much room more reliance on land based but even after we gave in and said all right let's discuss it all they walked away from the table we did that on an island there should the other presidents aging stamina be an issue in the political campaign now and i have not made an issue nor should it that what's at issue here is the president's application on his authority understand what a president must know the lead this nation secure our defense and make the decisions and the judgments that are necessary minute ago the president ordered historically i work for somebody a local circle very true

he said the buck stops here we just heard the president's answer for the problems in the barracks in lebanon were two hundred and forty one marines were killed what happened first the joint chiefs of staff with the president said don't put those troops that they didn't and then five days before the troops are killed they went back to the present through the secretary defense and said please just rather take those troops out of there because we can't find them they didn't do we know what rep what happened after that once again our embassy was exploded this is the fourth time this has happened and identical attack in the same region despite warnings even public warnings from the terrorists who is in charge who is an industry that's climbing for non arms control or complete for years this is the first administration says the bomb went off and made no progress we have an arms race underway instead

a president has to leave his government or it will be done different people with different views fight with each other for three and half years of this administration avoid arms control resisted tabling arms control proposals that had a hawk pope of a grave rebuild their negotiator in nineteen eighty one when he came close to an agreement at least in principle on medium range weapons and we have this arms race underway and a recent book that just came out by the perhaps the nation's most respected author and the spiel strobe talbott called deadly gamut and poets that this president has failed to master the essentially failed needed to command and leaders both in terms of security in terms of arms control that's why they call the president the commander actually good intentions i grant that it takes more than that must be tough and smart this question of leadership keeps arising in different forms in this discussion and

president mondale is called you're whining and bass a leading among more charitable phrases we cover leave it as it is a question of leadership and he has made the point that you have not repudiate some of the semi diplomatic activity of the reverend jackson particularly in central america are you if you approve of his diplomatic activity and how you can better rebuke repudiation i have written statement the other day i don't admire fidel castro raul and i've said that jake rivera was the contemptible figure in civilization's history i know the cuban state as a police state and all my life i've worked in a way that demonstrates that but jesse jackson is an independent person i don't control him and let's talk about people we do control in the last debate the vice president united states said that i said the marines had died shameful eight and died in shame and

lebanon i demanded an apology from vice president bush because i had a good stead honored these young men read for their families and i think they were wonderful american candidates all what does the president have to say about taking responsibility for a vice president who will apologize for something like that mr president your bottle yes i know to come as a surprise to most monday but i am in charge and as a matter of fact we have avoided arms control talks with the soviet union very early in my administration i proposed and i think something that had never been proposed by any previous administration i proposed a total elimination of intermediate range missiles where the soviets had better than a ton and still have better than a ten to one advantage over the allies in europe when they protested that and suggested a smaller number perhaps i went along with that these so

called negotiation that you said i walked out on was the so called walk in the woods between one of our representatives and one of the soviet union and it wasn't me that turned it down the soviet union that's about it mr monday your bottom there are two distinguished authors in arms control in this country there are many others too that i'm wanda sykes and i want a strobe talbott in his classic book deadly gambit the other is john neuhaus who's won the most distinguished arms control specialists in our country also this administration turned down the walk in the woods agreement first and that would've been a perfect agreement from the standpoint of the united states and europe in our security <unk> nets are a good negotiator returned he was built rebuilt and his boss was fired this is the kind of leadership that we've had in this administration in the most deadly issue of our

time now we have a runaway arms race all i got to show for four years and you're so it really funes is one meeting and the last weeks of an administration and nothing before they're tough negotiator but all previous presidents have made progress this one has now as gary a question to mr monti mr mondello many analysts are now saying that actually our number one foreign policy problem today is one that remains almost wholly unrecognized massive illegal immigration from economically collapsing countries they're saying that it is the only real territorial threat to the american nation state you yourself set in the nineteen seventies that we had a quote hemorrhaged on our borders and yet today you have backed up any immigration reform such as the balanced and highly crafted sentence so ago while what would you do instead today if anything

this is a very serious problem in our country and have to be dealt with i object to that part of the simpson mazzoli bill which i think is very unfair that would prove to be so that is the part that requires employers to determine the citizenship of an employee before they're higher i'm convinced that the result of this would be that people were responding to people who have different languages or speak with an accent would find it difficult to be employed i think that's wrong we'd never had citizenship test in our country before and i don't think we should have a citizenship car today that is counterproductive i do support the other aspects of the simpson mazzoli bill strengthen enforcement at the border strength in other ways of dealing with undocumented workers in this and there's a difficult area and dealing with the problem of saddling people who've lived here for many many years and do not have an established that i have further strongly recommend that this

administration do something it has not done and that is to strengthen enforcement at the border strengthened are the officials in the us government the deal with undocumented workers and to do so in a way that's responsible and within the constitution of the united states we need an answer to this problem but it must be an american answer is consistent with justice and due process everyone in this role practically here tonight is and we came here loneliness night nation serving it and to serve all of our most multiple dreams and one of those dreams is justice and that we need a major i will support a major brings about those objectives but abort voice that one aspect that i think is very serious the second part is to maintain and improve relations with our friends to the south we cannot solve this problem on a roll and that's why the failure of this administration to deal in effect even good faith way with mexico costa rica with the

other nations in trying to find a peaceful settlement to the dispute in central america has undermined our capacity to effectively video diplomatic interest diplomatically in this period as well so people as well balanced and just as other theater has spurred a notre dame who had a dislike commission and immigration have pointed out repeatedly that there will be no immigration reform without employer sanctions because it would be an unbalanced eleanor rigby simply no way to reinforce it however putting that aside for the moment are your critics have also said repeatedly that you have not gone along with the bill are with any immigration reform because of the hispanic groups are hispanic leadership groups who actually do not represent what the hispanic americans want because polls show that they overwhelm you really want some kind of immigration reform are hearing you say or how can you justify your position on this and how do you

respond to the criticism that this is another word that this is an example of your flip flopping i'm giving him to special interest groups at the expense of the american nation i think you're right that the polls show that the majority of hispanics want that bill shaw not known it for political reasons i'm doing it because all my life i've fought for a system of justice in this country a system in which every american has a chance to achieve the fullest life without discrimination this bill imposes upon employers responsibility of determining whether somebody who applies for a job as an american or not and just an evidently they're going to be reluctant to hire hispanics or people with a different accent if i were dealing with politics here the polls show the american people want that i am for reform in this area for tough enforcement at the

border and for many other aspects of the simpson mazzoli bill all my life i thought for a fair nation and despite the politics of it i stand where i stand and i think i'm right and before this fight is over we're going to come up with a better bill a more effective bill does not undermine the liberties of our people <unk> president argued to have said that our borders are out of control yet this fall you allow the simpson mazzoli bill which would at least have minimal a protected our borders and the rights of citizenship because of a relatively unimportant issue of reinforced first went to the states for legalized aliens given that may ask what priority can we expect you to give this forgotten national security element how sincere are you in your efforts to control in effect the nation state that has the united states and we believe he supported the simpson mazzoli bill

strongly in the bill that came out of the senate however there are things that are going on the house side that we felt made it less of a good bill as a matter of fact made a bad deal and in conference we stayed with them in conference all the way to where even senator simpson did not want the bill in the manner in which it would come out of the conference committee there were a number of things in there that we can that bill i can't go into detail about them here but it is true our borders are out of control it is also true that this is the situation in our borders back through a number of administrations and i supported this bill i believe in the idea of amnesty for those who have put down roots inability or even though sometime back very they may have entered illegally with regard to the employer sanctions this we must have that not only to ensure that we can identify the illegal aliens but also while some keep

protesting about what it would do to employers there is another employer but we shouldn't be so concerned about and these are employers down through the years we've encouraged the illegal entry into this country because they've then hire these individuals and higher than the starvation wages and with none of the benefits that we think are normal and natural for workers in our country and the individuals can't complain because of their illegal status we don't think that those people should be allowed to continue operating free and this was why the provisions that we head in with regard to sanctions and so forth and i'm going to do everything i can and all others in the administration are to join and again when congress is back at it to get an immigration bill that will give us once again control of our borders and with regard to friendship below the border the country's down there yes nored ministration that i know has a spare was the relationship that we have with our latin french but as long as they

have an economy that leave so many people in dire poverty and unemployment they are going to seek employment across our borders and we work with those other countries the experts also say that the situation today is terribly different quantitatively qualitatively different from what it has been in the past because of the gigantic population growth presses mexico's population will go from about sixty mean to date two hundred and twenty million at the turn of century many of these people will be coming into united states not citizens but as illegal workers you have repeatedly said recently that you believe as armageddon the destruction of the world may be imminent in our times do you ever feel that we are in for an armageddon or assess the situation time energy regarding the population explosion in the world no as a matter of fact the

population explosion and if you look at the actual figures has been vastly exaggerated or exaggerated as a matter of fact there are some pretty scientific and solid figures about how much space there still isn't the world and how many more people we can have it's almost like going back to tomatoes in siri when even then they were saying that everyone would starve the limited population they had them but the problem of population growth is one here with regard to our immigration and we have been the safety valve whether we wanted to or not with the illegal entry here in mexico where their population is increasing and eight don't have an economy that can absorb them and provide the jobs and this is what we're trying to work out not only to protect our own borders but i have some kind of fairness in recognition of that problem mr manuel your model one of the biggest problems today is that the countries to our

south are so desperately poor that these people who you almost lose their lives they don't come north from north despite all the risks if we're going to find a permanent fundamental answer to this it goes to american economic and trade policies from that these nations to have a chance to get on their own two feet and get prosperity so that they can have jobs for themselves and their people and that's why this enormous national debt engineered by this administration is harming these countries and fueling this immigration these high interest rates real rates have doubled under this administration it had the same effect on mexico and so on and the cost of repaying those deaths is so enormous that it results and massive unemployment hardship and hardy and that drives our friends to the north to the south up into our region and we need to end those deficits as well mr president your novel or my rebuttal

is i've heard the national get blamed for a lot of things but not for illegal immigration across our border and it has nothing to do with regard to these high interest rates to at least give us the recognition of the fact that when you left office and mondale they were twenty one and a half the prime rate it's now twelve a reporter and i particularly coming down a little more shortly so we're trying to undo some of the things that your administration did with your clause which was to calm the question of president reagan and president like to pick up is armageddon thing you've been quoted as saying that you do believe deep down that we are heading for some kind of biblical armageddon pentagon undersecretary of defense have plans for the united states to fight them prevailed in a nuclear war do you feel we are now having perhaps for some kind of nuclear armageddon and do you feel that this country and the world could survive

that kind of calamity well i think what has been hailed as something i'm supposedly as president discussing his principal is the root of just some philosophical discussions with people who are interested in the same things and that is a the prophecies down through the years the biblical prophecies of what would portend the coming of armageddon and so forth and the fact that a number of theologians for the last decade or more have believed that this was true that the prophecies are coming together the portend but no one knows whether armageddon those prophecies mean that armageddon as a thousand years away and where day after tomorrow so i have never seriously and warned them said we must plan according to armageddon now with regard to having to say whether we would try to survive in the event of a nuclear war of course we would but let me also point out but to several parliaments around the world in europe and in asia

i've made a statement an e to each one of them in our repeated here a nuclear war cannot be won and it must never before and that is why we are maintaining at the turn and trying to achieve a deterrent capacity to where no one would believe that they could start such a war and escape with limited damage but the deterrent and that's what it is for is also what led me to propose what is now being called the star wars concept but propose that we research to see if there isn't a defensive weapon that could defend against incoming missiles and if such as defense could be found wouldn't it be far more humanitarian to say that now we can defend against a nuclear war by destroying missiles instead of slaughtering millions of people present when you made that proposal the so called star wars proposal

you said if i'm not mistaken that you would share this very super sophisticated technology with the soviet union after all of the distrust over the years or that you have expressed towards the soviet union do you really expect anyone to take seriously that offer that you would share the best of america's technology in this weapons area with our principal officer why not what if we did and i hope we can we're still researching what if we come up with a weapon that renders those missiles obsolete there's never been a weapon invented in the history of man that has not led to a defensive or powder weapon but suppose we came up with the now some people said ah that would make it war imminent because they would think that we could not to launch a first strike because we could defend against the enemy but why not do what i have offered to do and ask the soviet union to do say look here's what we can do will even give it to you now how would you sit down

with us and once and for all get rid of all of us of these nuclear weapons and free mankind from that threat i think that would be the greatest use of a defensive weapon his mother given very sharply critical of the president's strategic defense initiative and yet what is wrong with a major effort by this country to try to use its best technology to knock out as many incoming nuclear warheads as possible first of all i'm a sharply disagree with the president on sharing the most advanced the most dangerous the most important technology in america with a soviet union we have had for many years understandably a system of restraints on high technology because the soviets are behind this and any research or development along the star wars games wouldn't evidently involve our most advanced computers most advanced engineering and the thought that we would share this with the soviet union is in my opinion a total non starter i would not let the soviet union get their hands on it at

all so what's wrong with star is nothing wrong with a theory of that if we could develop a principle that would say all sides could fire all or missiles and no one would get hurt i suppose it's a good idea but the fact of it is we're so far away from research that even comes close to that that this director of engineering research and a defense department said to get there we would have to solve a problem each of which are more difficult in the atomic bomb and the manhattan project it would cost something like a trillion dollars to test and avoid weapons the second thing is this also to the soviets would respond in congress and they always do we don't get behind they will get behind and that's been the tragic story of the archers we have more at stake it's very sad lives than they do if we could start

right now the testing that one of the space what is on the president's proposals though claire beyond research it was just research we would have any argument and maybe someday somebody of like this like to conduct this nation to a buildup of any satellite in space weapons at this time in their crude state would bring about an arms race that's very dangerous to be one final point the most dangerous aspect of this proposal is for the first time would delegate the computers the decision as to whether to start a war festival there would be time for president to decide it would be decided by these remote computer computers might be an oil fire it might be a jet exhaust the computer might decide its a muscle and off we go why don't we stop this madness now and draw a line and keep the heavens free for more mondale in this in this general

area served arms control president carter's national security adviser zbigniew brzezinski said quote a nuclear freeze is a hoax unquote if the basis of your arms proposals as i understand it was a mutual and verifiable freeze on existing weapons systems in your view which specific weapons systems could be subject to a mutual and verifiable freeze and which could not every system that is verifiable should be placed on the table for negotiations or degree i would not agree that any negotiations are any agreement that involve conduct on the part of the soviet union that we couldn't verify every day i would not agree to any agreement in which the united states' security interest was not fully are recognized and support that's that's why we say mutual and verifiable freezing now what why do i support the free because this ever rising arms

race madness makes automation less secure it's more difficult to defend this nation it is putting a hair trigger on nuclear war this administration by going into the star wars system is going to add a dangerous new escalation we have to be tough on the soviet union but i think the american people and as obama so big mama wanted to stop president reagan your bottle yes my rebuttal once again is that this invention that has just been created here of and how i would go about rolling over to the soviet union know last monday oh my idea would be with that defensive weapon but we would sit down with them and then say now you willing to join is here's what we can get an image of a demonstration and then say here's what we can do now if you're willing to join us in getting rid of all the nuclear weapons in the world then we'll give you this one so that we would both know that

no one can cheat but we both got something that if anyone tries to cheat but when you could keep star warren that i never suggested where the weapons should be or what kind i'm not a scientist i said in the joint chiefs of staff agreed with me that it was time for us to turn our research ability to seeing if we could not find this kind of a defensive weapon and suddenly somebody says oh it's got to be a parent is star wars and so what i don't know what it would be like if we can come up with one i think the world will be better off on your body well that's what a president ought to know where those weapons are going to be if there are space weapons i still living in spite of the anti satellite weapons i assume they're going to be a power against any side a lot now this is the most dangerous technology that we possess so the starters firearms dealer stop and to get there and technology at this point i disagree with you haven't just accepted research that you've set

up a strategic defense initiative an agency you're beginning to cast you're talking about why you're asking for a budget of some thirty billion dollars for this purpose this is an arms escalation and we will be better or fire better off if we stop right now because we have more to lose in space than i do if some day somebody comes along with an answer that's something else but but that would be an answer in our lifetime is on imagine why do we start things that we know the soviets who met and make this all less secure presence more mr bender i think your question to mr mondale and mondale you say that with respect to the soviet union you wanna negotiate a mutual nuclear freeze yet you would unilaterally give up the amex muscle in the b one bomber before the talks have even begun and you have been announced in advance that reaching an agreement with the soviets is the most important thing in the world to you know aren't you giving away half the store before you even sit down to

talk was a matter of fact we have a vast range of technology and weaponry right now that provides all the bark the troops that we support the air launched cruise missiles ground launch cruise missile pershing missile trident submarine the five submarine the stealth technology that magic man we have a whole range of techno why i disagree with the amex is that it's a sitting duck it'll drop an attack it puts a hair trigger and it is a dangerous be stabilizing what and the b one is similarly be appalled because for fifteen years the soviet union has been preparing to meet the one the secretary defense and sow said it would be a suicide mission if or were bill instead i wanna build a magic man which is mobile and thus less vulnerable contributing to stability

and a weapon that will give a security and contribute to an incentive for arms control that's why i'm for stuff technology to build a stealth bomber which i support for years that can penetrate the soviet air defense system without any our poll that they can perceive word is because their radar system is frustrated in other words a president has to make choices this makes a strong the final point is that we can use this money that we save on these weapons to spend on things that we really need are conventional straight in europe is under strength we need to strike and that in order to assure our western allies of our presence their strong defense but also to diminish and reduce the likelihood of a commencement of war and the use of nuclear weapons it's in this way by making wise choices there were stronger we enhance the chances of arms control every president tell us one has been able to look and this nation by the world is more dangerous as a result i wanna i wanna

well follow up on that mr peltz question it seems to me on the question of verify believe that that you do have some problems with with the extent of the freeze it seems to me for example that testing would be very difficult to verify because the soviets and called their telemetry research would be impossible to verify the numbers of warheads would be impossible to verify by satellite except with on site inspection and production of any weapon would be impossible to verify now in view of that what what is going to be frozen i will not agree to any arms control agreement including a freeze does not verified let's take your mortgage principle the war had recently been counting rules for years whenever a weapon is tested we count the number of warheads on it and whenever that we're in is usually cut that number warheads out whether they had that number or less on it or not these are standard rules i will not agree to any production restrictions are aggrieved or less we have the ability to verify those agreements i don't trust the russians i believe that every

agreement we reach must be verifiable and i will not agree to anything that we cannot tell every day in other words we got to be tough but in order to stop this march madness we've got to push ahead with tough negotiations that are verifiable so that we know the soviets are green and living up to their green mr president i want to ask you question about negotiating with with friends you severely criticized president carter for helping to undermine to friendly dictators who got into trouble with their own people the shah of iran and presidents of most of nicaragua now there are other such leader is heading for trouble including president pinochet of chile and president marcos of the philippines what should you do and what can you do to prevent the philippines from becoming another nicaragua morton i did criticize the president because of are undercutting of what was a stalwart ally the shah the run and i am not all convinced that he was that far

out of line with his people or that they wanted that to happen the show i had done our bidding and carried our lord in the middle east or for quite some time and i didn't think that was a blot on our record but we let him down have things gotten better the sharp whatever he might've done was building low cost housing and taken the land away from the mammas and was distributing it to the peasants so they could be landowners things of that kind but we turned it over to a maniacal fanatic who have slaughtered thousands and thousands of people calling out executions be matters somoza no i'm ever defended somoza was a matter effective the previous administration stood by and so today i not that i could have done anything in my position at that time but for this revolution to take place and the promise of the revolution was

democracy human rights free labor unions free press and then just as castro done in cuba the sandinistas ousted the other parties to the revolution many of them are now the countries they exiles some the jails some and murdered son and they installed a marxist leninist totalitarian government and what i have to say about this is many times and this has to do with the philippines also i know there are things there in the philippines that do not look good to us from the standpoint right now of a democratic rights but what is the alternative is a large communist movement to take over the philippines they have been our friend for since their inception as a nation and i think that we've had enough of a record of letting under the guise of revolution someone that we thought was a little more right than we would be letting that person go and then winding up with totalitarianism pure and simple

as the alternative and i think that we're better off for example the philippines are trying to retain our friendship and help them right the wrongs we see rather than throwing the wolves and then facing a communist power in the pacific and presidents since the united states has two strategically important bases in the philippines with the overthrow of president marcos constitute a threat to vital american interest and if so what would you do about well as i say we have to look at what an overthrow there would mean and what the government would be that would follow and there is every evidence every indication that that government would be hostile the united states and that would be a severe blow to the to our abilities there in the pacific and what would you do about it sorry sorry last fall a question most mondays your model perhaps in our area but we disagree more than this administration's policies and human

rights i went to the philippines as vice president pressed for human rights called for the release of the keynote and made progress that they've been stalled and both are so big in the park are few basics what explains this administration cozying up to the argentine dictators after he took over for chewing a democracy took over but this nation was embarrassed by this occurred administration's adoption of their policies what happens in south africa were for example the nobel prize winner two days ago said this administration is seen as working with the oppressive government of that region of south africa that hurts this nation we need to stand for human rights we need to make it clear we're for human liberty national security and human rights must go together but this administration time and time again has lost its way and that's the reason or even your mobile well the

invasion of afghanistan didn't take place on our watch i have described what has happened in iran and we were here than either i don't think that i record of human rights can be assailed i think that we have observed ourselves and have done our best to see that human rights are expanded throughout the world monday was recently announced a planet has to get the democracies together and to work with the whole world turned to democracy and i was glad to hear him say that because that's what we've been doing ever since i am after the british parliament that i thought we should do this and don't human rights are not advanced when the same time you then stand back and say whoops we didn't know the gun was loaded and you have another totalitarian power but in this set and the segment because of the pressure of time there will be no more bubbles and there will be no follow up questions as truly pure question to present a great one question each candidate questioned which capt

but the present that take you back to something you said earlier if i'm the school you please correct me but i understand you to say that if they develop a space military technology with successful you might give the soviets a demonstration and say here it is which sounds to me as if you might be trying to game the sort of values that would enable you to dictate terms in which alabama suggested you might mean it's scrapping a generation of nuclear strategy called mutual deterrence and which we in effect on each other hostages are your intentions well i can say that i have roundtable that sat down with the chief suspect that i had said but it seems to me that this could be a logical step in what is mine ultimate goal by ottoman dream and that is the elimination of nuclear weapons in the world and it seems to me that this could be an edge on certainly a great persisting agent in getting that done i am not going to roll over and mondale

suggests and give them something that could turn around and be used against us and i think it's a very interesting proposal too see if we can find first of all something that renders those weapons obsolete incapable of their their mission to mondale seems to approve mad mad is mutual assured destruction meaning if you use nuclear weapons on us the only thing we have to keep it and doing it is that will kill as many people to viewers is huge of hours i think but to do everything we can to find as i say something that would destroy weapons and not humans is a great step forward in human rights but a mano can i ask you to address a question a clear strategy then dr is very arcane but i'm going to have to deal with any way do you believe in a mad mutually assured destruction need to return says it has been practiced last generation i believe in a sensible arms control approach brings down these weapons to manageable levels i would like to

see their elimination and in the meantime we have to be strong enough to make certain that the soviet union ever taxed its and here we have to decide between generalized objectives and reality the president says he wants to eliminate to reduce the number of nuclear weapons but in fact these last four years have seen more weapons bill a wider and more vigorous arms race in human history he says he wants a system that will make nuclear arms wars say so nobody's gonna give her well maybe someday somebody can dream of why start an arms race know whitey stabilize our relationship why threaten our space sound lights upon week which we defend why pursue a strategy that would delegate computer computers the question of starting the war a president to defend this country and to get arms control must master what's going on we all i accept his

objective of unease dreams we all do with the hard reality is that we must know what we're doing and pursue those objectives that are possible in our top he's opposed every effort a very present do so and the four years of his administration he's a failed to do so and if you want a tough president who uses that straight to get arms control and draws a line in the heavens built for walter mondale i must again as the audience not to applaud not to not demonstrate it's really isn't any way we've arrived at the point in the debate now where we call for closing statements you have the full four minutes interview with mondale when you go first i wanna fight illegal of orders good citizens of kansas city president reagan or green bay this evening singing we talked about marriage and strength i believe we need to be strong and i will keep a

stroll but i straight i think straight must also require wisdom and smarts in its exercise that's key to the strength of our nation a president must know the essential facts essential command the president must also have a vision of where this nation should go tonight as americans you have a choice in your entire law where we would take this country if you decide to elect as president i would press for long term vigorous economic growth that's why one to get these debts down and these interest rates down restore america's exports help rural america which is suffering so much and bring the jobs back here for our children i want this next generation to be the best educated in american history to invest in the human longing and science and in store opera i want this nation to protect its air its water it's a land of

public health america it is not temporary were for ever and as americans are generation should protect this wonderful land for children i want a nation of fairness where no one is denied the fullness of life or discriminated against and we deal compassionately with those enormous war in trouble and above all i wanna nation that strong since we debated two weeks ago united states the soviet union the bill a hundred more war hit an uphill millions of americans and millions of soviet citizen's this doesn't strike unless this weekend's the chances of civilization serve are i remember the night before i became vice president i was given a briefing and told that any time neither day i might be called upon to make the baseball most

fateful decision on or whether to fire these atomic weapon that could destroy the human species that lesson thousands two things one that the president that you know will know if that tragic moment ever comes when he must know because there'd be no time for staffing committees or advisors a president must know right thing but above all pick a president who will fight to avoid the day when that god awful decision ever needs to be made and that's why this election is so terribly important america and americans decide not just what's happening in this country we're the strongest and most artful free society honor when you make that judgment you were deciding not only the future of our nation in a very profound respect you're providing future deciding the future of the world

we need to move on and it's time for america to find new leadership please join me in this cause the moose move competently and when a sense of assurance and command the bill that was the future of our nation president reagan your submission is my thanks to the league of women voters to the panelist moderator and the people of kansas city for their warm hospitality and three and i think the american people tonight have much to be grateful for an economic recovery that is become expansion freedom and most of all we are at peace ii i'm grateful for the chance to reaffirm my commitment to reduce nuclear weapons and one day to eliminate them entirely

the question before you comes down to this you want to see america return to the policies of weakness of the last four years or do we want to go forward marching together as a nation of strength and that's going to continue to be strong we we shouldn't the dwelling on the past or even the present the meaning of this election is the future and whether we're going to grow and provide the jobs and the opportunities for all americans and that they need several years ago i was given an assignment to write a letter it was to go into a time capsule and would be read in a hundred years when that time capsule was opened i remember driving down the california coast one day my mind was full of what i was

going to put in that letter about the problems and the issues that confront us in our time and what we get about them but i couldn't completely neglect the beauty around the league pacifica out there in one side of the highway shining in the sound like the mountains of the coast range rising on the other side and i found myself wondering what would be like for someone wondering if someone a hundred years from now would be driving down that i win if they would see the same thing and with that thought i realized what a job i had with that letter i would be writing a letter to people who know everything there is to know about us we know nothing about them they would know all about our problems they would know how we solve them and whether our solution was beneficial to them down through the years or whether it hurt them they would also know that we lived in a world with the terrible weapons nuclear weapons a terrible destructive power aimed at each other capable of crossing the ocean in a matter of minutes and destroying

civilization as we know it and then i thought to myself what are they going to say about us what are those people a hundred years from now i'm going to think they will know whether we use those weapons or not well what they will say about us a hundred years from now depends on how we keep our rendezvous with destiny will we do the things that we know must be done to know that one day down in history hundred years of breath before someone will say thank god for those people back in the nineteen eighties for preserving our freedom for saving for us this lesson plan a cold earth with all this grand jury and its beauty you know i am grateful to all of you for giving the

opportunity to serve you for these four years and i seek reelection because i want more than anything else to try to complete the new beginning but we charted four years ago george bush while it is one of the finest vice presidents this country has ever had george bush and i have crisscrossed the country and we've had in these last few months a wonderful experience periods we have met young america we have met your sons and daughters as president i'm obliged to control fire under the rules of basements are all right he's been what ultimately rules under which had there that were agreed upon by the two characters that you know is fight against president clinton's mondello thanks also panel

finally to our audience we thank you and the league of women voters asked me to say it you don't forget to vote on november six and for him

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