The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Friday, Edwin Meese ended his tenure as Attorney General with a new way to investigate Congressmen, Richard Thornburgh was sworn in as his replacement, and the President of Burma resigned following days of bloody protest. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: After the News Summary, we focus on Central America [News Maker] in a News Maker Interview with Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, then politics [Focus - '88 Convention Preview] with the Republican Convention opening next week, we talk to Bush Campaign Strategist Lee Atwater. Our analysts, Gergen & Shields, discuss the political events of the week [Focus - '88 David Gergen & Mark Shields], we have a documentary report on the controversy over the film [Focus - Resisting The Temptation] "The Last Temptation of Christ", and Essayist Penny Stallings [Essay - Pop Star] looks at American pop culture. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: Edwin Meese left something behind today when he left office as Attorney General. He signed an order for there to be Independent Counsel investigations of members of Congress. Meese was the subject of two such investigations as a member of the Executive Branch. He said it was time such investigations applied to Congress as well.

EDWIN MEESE, Former Attorney General: Many people have long felt that there was an undesirable disparity between the ways that members of the Executive Branch and members of the Legislative Branch were treated when it comes to allegations of criminal wrongdoing. As you know, some members of Congress have very recently called for this type of action. Well, the policy that's announced today will ensure that high public officials of both branches are treated alike, and I think it will greatly enhance public confidence in the fairness and impartiality of the federal justice system.

MR. LEHRER: Meese's successor, former Pennsylvania Governor Richard Thornburgh, was confirmed by the Senate last night. Today he was sworn in in a White House ceremony. Afterward he gave reporters this comment on the Meese order.

RICHARD THORNBURGH, Attorney General: What the Attorney General has authorized as I understand it is that in those cases where members of Congress are involved there will be an Independent Counsel appointed rather than have it handled in the normal way that the Department has handled it in the past, and I think this is in response to the apparent sentiment for the use of Independent Counsels in sensitive cases so I think I have not studied and reviewed the order in detail but given the strong sentiment that appears to exist for the use of Independent Counsels, I don't expect that I will hold to any different view.

MR. LEHRER: Rudolph Giuliani, the New York U.S. Attorneys after the Thornburgh ceremony. He said from his perspective, the Meese order is not needed. Giuliani is widely known for his successful prosecution of Congressmen and other white collar criminals. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: President Reagan and Vice President Bush held a warm-up rally for the Republican Convention. Speaking in the executive office building to some 200 senior Administration appointees, the President and his would-be successor urged them to help lay out the record to the American people. George Bush pointed to the Administration's economic accomplishments.

VICE PRESIDENT BUSH: And here we are, 68 months into the greatest explosion of job growth in American history and we're still going strong. And I will readily concede that all the good things you've accomplished are not in focus in the minds of the Electorate. Part of our job at our convention and part of my job as the standard bearer and hopefully, your job as surrogates will be to get these good things in focus. Elections are normally determined by the state of the economy and the state of the economy is A-1.

MR. MacNeil: His Democratic opponent, Michael Dukakis, said Administration economic policy was responsible for rising interest rates. Speaking at the Virginia Governor's Mansion, Dukakis referred to the prime lending rate raised yesterday by leading banks to 10 percent.

GOV. MICHAEL DUKAKIS: Why is the prime rate up? Why is the cost of borrowing up? Why is every family in America going to be burdened by increasing costs that they never should have had to incur? Because this country has refused to pay its bills for the last eight years. And because we have to borrow billions and billions from foreign lenders in order to pay our bills, those interest rates are high and they're going to stay high until we get some leadership in the White House that understands that you can combine progressive values and fiscal responsibility and, in fact, the two go hand in hand, as all Virginians know, because that's the kind of leadership you've had for the past six years.

MR. MacNeil: The government announced today that wholesale price inflation increased last month to an annual rate of 5.7 percent. The Wholesale Price Index for July rose .5 percent due to increased prices for cars, furniture and poultry.

MR. LEHRER: Overseas the President of Burma quit today. Sein Lwin also resigned his jobs as head of Burma's socialist program party and as a member of the People's Assembly. The announcement came on the fifth day of violent protests against his seventeen day regime by students and others. The official death toll in the confrontations with troops is 95, but wire service reports say diplomatic sources claim the number of deaths is in the hundreds. There was no announcement about a successor to Lwin. Special meetings of the party and the assembly were called for next Friday, presumably to replace him.

MR. MacNeil: South Africa threatened today that tougher American economic sanctions could wreck the plan to let Namibia become independent. Last night, the House of Representatives passed a bill demanding the withdrawal of all American investment in South Africa. South African President P.W. Botha said today the legislation would restrict financial transactions needed to carry out Namibian independence that was agreed this week in the Angola cease-fire deal worked out with U.S. help. The White House also denounced the bill today, saying it would be more likely to stymie progress towards ending apartheid rather than accelerate its end.

MR. LEHRER: Three Americans are in trouble for trying to smuggle some nuclear souvenirs out of the Soviet Union. The three are technical experts who were in South Central Russia preparing to monitor Soviet nuclear tests. A State Department spokesman called the incident a misunderstanding. He said the souvenirs were a hammer, a piece of barbed wire, and several rock and core samples. Soviet officials discovered them in a crate awaiting shipment back to the United States. The State Department man said all parties agreed the three will not be returning to the Soviet Union when the tests actually begin next month.

MR. MacNeil: The film "The Last Temptation of Christ" opened in U.S. movie theaters today to demonstrations, denunciations as blasphemy and calls for boycotts by religious organizations. In New York, demonstrators paraded down Fifth Avenue and lined up behind police barricades carrying banners saying "No Second Crucifixion" and "Hollywood sells out Jesus Christ". The film, directed by Martin Scorsese, depicts Christ dreaming of making love with Mary Magdellan. Protests were also staged or planned by religious groups in other major cities. That's our News Summary. Now it's on to Costa Rica's Oscar Arias, Bush strategist Lee Atwater, Gergen & Shields, "The Last Temptation of Christ" and American pop culture. NEWS MAKER INTERVIEW

MR. MacNeil: We begin tonight with the latest turns in the Nicaragua story as seen by the leader of Central American peace efforts, Costa Rican President Oscar Arias Sanchez. It's been a year since he convinced his fellow Central American leaders to sign the peace plan that bears his name. Since then, Arias has been rewarded with a Nobel Peace Prize, but little in the way of progress towards peace in the region. This week he took his quest to Ecuador, where he met with Secretary of State George Shultz and Cuban President Fidele Castro. This afternoon he joined our correspondent Charles Krause for a NewsMaker Interview.

MR. KRAUSE: Thank you, Mr. President, for agreeing to see us today. This morning in Keto, President Ortega of Nicaragua reportedly questioned your right to serve as an arbiter of the peace process. He also reiterated his view that any future talks with the Contras should take place in Nicaragua. How do you evaluate his remarks?

OSCAR ARIAS, President, Costa Rica: I don't pretend to be an arbiter of the peace plan, but first I am the author of the peace plan and second, I am the President of the oldest and most consolidated democracy in the whole of Latin America. And as such, I think I have a right to make an assessment of the peace process after a year, trying to interpret the sentiments and feelings of the Costa Rican people, and I portend to do this soon. I also believe that it is a mistake to try to hold a meeting in Nicaragua. My impression is that if we want to get positive results from such a meeting between the Contras and the Sandinista Government, that meeting should take place in another country and I have offered Costa Rica for such a meeting.

MR. KRAUSE: Do you interpret Daniel Ortega's remarks as a further hardening, toughening, of the Sandinista position?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: Not necessarily. I am hopeful that as I ask in a letter I wrote to him recently he will re-initiate this dialogue outside of Nicaragua, he'll release the prisoners of the demonstration. This would be a very positive gesture if he wants to stimulate the peace process and also, he should also open the mass media that has been closed. This would be also a very positive gesture.

MR. KRAUSE: Has Ortega responded to your letter? Do you have any reason to believe that he is prepared to take the steps that you have suggested in order to revive the negotiations?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: He hasn't responded to my letter, but I do hope that he would agree with these petitions because indeed if he really wants to comply with the Guatemala Accord, he has to adopt a new behavior. Otherwise, the signal we get is that he doesn't have the will to comply with the Guatemala Accord.

MR. KRAUSE: Is that your interpretation of the situation now? Is that your evaluation and judgment of the Sandinistas, that they simply are not prepared to make any further concessions in order to negotiate a settlement?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: I would say this. They fear much more the Contra Army -- I'm sorry, they fear less the Contra Army than democracy and freedom. My impression is that for them democracy and freedom is the greatest threat, and that's why the Hawks on both sides do not want democracy and do not want peace on the Contra side and also some members of the Sandinista Government who are more dogmatic, more inflexible, more intransigent than Daniel Ortega, himself.

MR. KRAUSE: In that case, given the recent events in Nicaragua, the arrests of the opposition leaders, the closing of some of the media, what makes you think that the hard liners within the Sandinistas have not now the upper hand?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: Well, we have just to keep putting some pressure and insisting that there's no alternative to the peace plan war. There is no alternative to dialogue and negotiations but the continuation of the war, and I am sure the majority of the Nicaraguan people do not want that even though there might be some minority in the Sandinista Government who want that, but with diplomatic pressure, political pressure, and that was one of my objectives in my trip to Keto, to talk to the rest of the South American Presidents who came to the Borha inauguration to convey to them my worries that unless we get a lot of support from all of them so that we comply with the Guatemala Accord, there will be more worry in Central America and consequently, more poverty and hunger.

MR. KRAUSE: One of the Latin American leaders you talked to in Ecuador was Fidele Castro. Do you expect that he will use his influence with the Sandinistas to convince them to make some concessions to get back to the bargaining table? Is he interested in that?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: Yes. Well, that was precisely the question I asked him. On the one hand, he says that he supports the peace agreement and on the other hand, sometimes he seems not to support the Guatemala Accord because his is still backing militarily the guerrillas in El Salvador as well as in Guatemala. And while this is a contradiction of course, this is the same contradiction we find also in Washington sometimes, when they tell us that they support the peace plan but on the other hand, they want more military aid to the Contras. So I told Fidele Castro what I told the U.S. Congress, let's give peace a chance. Let's stop this support to the guerrillas in El Salvador as well as in Guatemala, and let's support dialogue instead.

MR. KRAUSE: Turning to Washington now, you spoke with Secretary of State Shultz this week, do you think that the Reagan Administration is now prepared to support a resumption of talks between the Contras and the Sandinistas?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: Yes. I find Mr. Shultz more inclined to give peace a chance now, more now than ever. I think he is sincerely committed to put some pressure on the Contras to accept, to negotiate again, and my impression is that he coincides with me that no meeting should take place outside of Nicaragua.

MR. KRAUSE: A last question and that is, clearly aid to the Contras and the whole U.S. policy in Central America has become an issue in the Presidential campaign. What impact is that going to have on the Contras, on the Sandinistas and on your efforts to try and reach some sort of settlement?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: Some people believe that military aid to the Contras is the best instrument to bring the Sandinistas to the negotiating table. My impression is that it is just the opposite. With more aid to the Contras, we'll get more repression in Nicaragua, and you'll get more inflexibility in the Sandinista Government, and less chance to hold a meeting again, so today the Sandinistas are quite isolated because the whole world is watching them and we've seen that there's no will on the part of the Sandinistas to comply with the Caribbean. They need one excuse and that excuse is more military aid to the Contras, so I think we'll get just the opposite result, more repression instead of willingness to negotiate.

MR. KRAUSE: I understand that, but quickly, my question is politically, that is to say if this becomes a major issue in the Presidential campaign in the United States, will that make it very difficult to have a coherent policy from Washington? Could that have an impact on your efforts?

PRESIDENT ARIAS: Well, it doesn't help, you know. We have asked not only Washington but the whole world and also the Soviet Union, and I also asked this to Fidele Castro, allow us Central Americans to deal with our conflicts, to solve our own problems, and the only way is supporting the peace plan.

MR. KRAUSE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

MR. MacNeil: At a news conference in Ecuador today, the President of Nicaragua, Daniel Ortega, rejected President Arias' offer to hold further peace talks in Costa Rica. Ortega said the only appropriate places for future negotiations between the Sandinistas and the Contras are Nicaragua or Washington, D.C.

MR. LEHRER: Still to come on the Newshour, Lee Atwater and Gergen & Shields preview the Republican Convention, Jeffrey Kaye reports on the storm around the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ" and Penny Stallings comments on pop culture. FOCUS - '88 - CONVENTION PREVIEW

MR. LEHRER: Now some pregame talk about the Republican Convention which opens Monday in New Orleans. Judy Woodruff is already there to prepare the way for us and to interview Bush Campaign Manager Lee Atwater. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: More than 4500 Republican delegates and alternates, plus another 30,000 guests are starting to arrive in New Orleans. They were preceded by members of the platform committee who have been here all week and today finished work on the lengthy conservative document which the convention will vote on next Tuesday. Back in Washington, President Reagan gave a send-off to the Vice President before an audience of mostly Administration officials.

PRESIDENT REAGAN: I expect that most people will vote for George Bush this year because after voting for him once or twice before, they know that he's their guarantee that peace and prosperity today will be followed by more peace and prosperity tomorrow. And frankly, I don't think the American people want to gamble their future on a blind date.

VICE PRESIDENT BUSH: We have a two part mission in this election, to remind the American people what we've done, what we've accomplished, and then to convince them, given a chance, that there's going to be change as we move into a new decade but that we can do even better. What's at stake is not just one election. What's at stake is a way of life and if we can convince the American people of that, then I'm convinced that we will have the opportunity for the next four years to serve this, the greatest, freest, most wonderful country on the face of the earth. Thank you all. I need you. God bless you. Thank you very much.

MS. WOODRUFF: Joining us now to talk about next week's convention and the campaign to follow it is the manager of the George Bush for President effort, Lee Atwater. Lee, what does the Vice President mean when he talks about gambling with our future, when the President talks about the future being at stake? The Vice President made a speech the other day saying the country was going to be more dangerous if Dukakis were elected. What does all this mean?

LEE ATWATER, Bush Campaign Manager: I think what it means, Judy, is that the Vice President certainly is a man who is going to deal with change and this country is going through a change. But a guy like Dukakis, it would just be too risky. When you look at his position on issues, particularly national defense, where he has not supported any kind of strategic defense system, taxes where he's raised taxes as recently as a month ago in his own state, the death penalty which he doesn't support, and it's issue after issue where he just has a position that is not in tune with the American people, and that kind of change is just really too great a risk.

MS. WOODRUFF: But when you say risky, when the Vice President talks about America being a more dangerous place, I mean, that sounds really ominous? I mean, what are you suggesting is going to happen?

MR. ATWATER: Well, I do think America is a more dangerous place when you have a man like Dukakis who is Governor had a furlough program that allowed convicted murderers with no chance of parole to roam around on the weekends and there's 85 of them still out who escaped during this program. And I do think it's dangerous from a certain standpoint, when you have a President of the United States who literally supports no strategic defense system.

MS. WOODRUFF: Is this the sort of negative talk we're going to continue to hear through this next week?

MR. ATWATER: I wouldn't call it negative talk. I would say this - -

MS. WOODRUFF: You wouldn't call it negative talk?

MR. ATWATER: It's certainly not as negative as Dukakis referring to the President of the United States as a rotting fish. I thought that was probably the most single negative comment I've heard in the campaign, but what it is is a discussion of issues. And I think probably the biggest difference in this convention and the Democratic Convention was they were negative in a very personal way about the Vice President. We're going to be discussing issues and there's a great difference between these two candidates on issues.

MS. WOODRUFF: But they didn't suggest that America might, again, might blow up or something if --

MR. ATWATER: No one suggested that at all, Judy, but I do think if you listen to the dialogue at that convention, it was one very vicious personal attack after another, and again I go back to that if a man refers to the sitting President of the United States, regardless of what party he is in, as a rotting fish, I don't see what else you could say that could top that.

MS. WOODRUFF: The polls that are coming in in the last few days show Gov. Dukakis losing some of the steam that he had built up before the Democratic Convention. But they still show Dukakis with about a 10, 12, 14 point advantage. They show him having an advantage among women voters, and they also show high negatives persistent for the Vice President. Are you concerned about this?

MR. ATWATER: No. I think this campaign is going along about like we thought it would. I felt like Dukakis would have a lead of 10 or 15 points up until this convention and then the Vice President gets front and center stage this week and that lead will diminish and we'll get into a very close hard fought election for the last eight or ten weeks.

MS. WOODRUFF: How do you address those problems with this convention?

MR. ATWATER: Well, I think several ways, Judy. One thing that is clear to me is that the public hasn't been focusing on the Presidential election, and when they start focusing on it, they're going to start thinking about things like the economy and inflation, interest rates, taxes, unemployment, and they're going to examine the record of the last seven years and I think they're also going to examine the fact that we've come closer to having a meaningful peace through strength with the Russians than we've had in the last three decades. And then they'll hear what the Vice President has to say this week about the environment and about child care and about many other issues and I think the gap will start narrowing.

MS. WOODRUFF: Some of your own people have said everything is riding on this convention, meaning that you've got to come out of here with a really positive week.

MR. ATWATER: Well, this will be a good week, but everything doesn't ride on anything in this business. We all know that. What is going to happen is we're going to have a campaign here for the next 12 weeks. The American people are going to focus on the candidates and my hope is is that they will focus on issues, because issues really are what a campaign should be about and there are some vital issues here in this campaign and there's even more vital differences between the two candidates, particularly on taxes, gun control, the death penalty, this criminal furlough program, and other things.

MS. WOODRUFF: Speaking of issues, you had the platform committee meeting here in New Orleans this week and I was there for at least part of the discussion. And it was very clear that your people were just not going to let any major dissension erupt at these platform hearings, that it was going to be a document that the Bush Campaign could very much live with. Why were you all so worried about having any real dissension emerge on this platform document?

MR. ATWATER: I think what we were more concerned with was to make sure that we had a lot of substance and we had a very clear position on every vital issue as opposed to this three or four page sham that came out of the Democratic Convention. The Democratic Party is trying to hide from the issues. I don't blame them because they've gotten slammed the last couple of times because they were wrong on the issues. If you examine this platform, it's chocked full of issues on every position and frankly it represents mainstream thinking of most of the people in this country as opposed to that document which was really a sham that came out of the Democratic Convention a few weeks ago.

MS. WOODRUFF: But again on this question of not really allowing any dissension, there won't be any fights on the platform on the floor we're told.

MR. ATWATER: Well, that's simply one of the virtues of having a united party. Everybody is getting along fine. George Bush --

MS. WOODRUFF: Everybody who's here agrees with every --

MR. ATWATER: No, you've seen more of it than I have. I just got here today but I've been in the party now for about 20 years and I've never seen the party quite as unified and vigorous about supporting a candidate as they are George Bush. He virtually represents every wing of the party, which is why he got the nomination in such short order.

MS. WOODRUFF: The other thing about this platform that comes across is that it's virtually a reprint of the platform that Ronald Reagan ran on in 1980 and again in 1984, with a few additions on a few more topical things, AIDS, drugs, child care. It remains a very conservative document. Is that the sort of thing that you all think you can best appeal to undecided voters with?

MR. ATWATER: Well, I think that this country is mainstream conservative. If you had to define America, I would say progressive but mainstream conservative. And I think that's what this document is. The Democratic Party of course is over there on the left, particularly when you look at issues like taxes, government spending, the death penalty and this criminal furlough program I talked about earlier. So we're very proud of the fact that our party represents mainstream thinking of the people in this country. And we don't have to run a sham like the Democrats did and hide our platform and reduce it down to three or four pages of pap.

MS. WOODRUFF: But again, it's a platform that's very very close to what Ronald Reagan ran on. Can George Bush win on a platform that is virtually Ronald Reagan's platform of the past?

MR. ATWATER: Well, I think when you look at issues like interest rates, inflation, taxes and unemployment, we live on a different planet today than we lived on seven years ago under the Democrats and I think people are more than happy to run on keeping inflation down and interest rates down and unemployment down. But as you suggest, there are some forward looking aspects to this in the area of child care, the environment, and other areas, so I think it's a good solid document from a standpoint it does represent the accomplishments and achievements of the last seven years, but it also represents the Vice President's forward looking attitude on many issues that he thinks are important as we move into the 1990's.

MS. WOODRUFF: You mentioned interest rates. This week the Federal Reserve Board raised the so called discount rate and --

MR. ATWATER: But what are interest rates now, 6 or 7 --

MS. WOODRUFF: I was going to say in response to that the major banks have raised their prime rate. There's a lot of speculation rates are going to come back up again. Are you all concerned about that?

MR. ATWATER: Well, I'm not concerned, particularly when you look at interest rates under the Carter years. I mean, it was rampant. There's no comparison and I don't, I'm not concerned that the American people are not going to be able to very clearly understand that the economy has gone through and is continuing to go through the longest recovery probably in American history.

MS. WOODRUFF: You plan to point that out I gather?

MR. ATWATER: Yes, I think that'd be fair to point out.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, all we need to know from you now, Lee Atwater, is who is the Vice Presidential choice going to be? What state is it? Just tell us what state he or she is going to be from.

MR. ATWATER: Well, all I will say is there is not a man in America more qualified to choose a Vice President than Vice President Bush, and that's what he is going to be thinking about all weekend long. It's going to be a surprise to all of us here in New Orleans, so I would urge everybody to tune in next week.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, there was a big meeting on this subject today in Washington. Were you in that meeting?

MR. ATWATER: Yes.

MS. WOODRUFF: And --

MR. ATWATER: I would advise everybody to tune in next week, because the Vice President has got some very clear thoughts on this and it's going to be his announcement and I --

MS. WOODRUFF: You really think you can keep it a secret until - -

MR. ATWATER: I have absolute confidence that he will keep it a secret. After all, he was head of the CIA and he does know how to keep a secret. And I think it will be very exciting and very dramatic.

MS. WOODRUFF: All right. Lee Atwater, thank you for being with us.

MR. ATWATER: Thank you. It's been great.

MR. LEHRER: The Democratic Campaign of Michael Dukakis will not be silent during the upcoming week of the Republicans. They have chosen this time to run their first paid national television commercial. The theme is leadership and here it is free of charge.

DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL

GOVERNOR MICHAEL DUKAKIS: [July 21, 1988] We're going to build the kind of America where hard work is rewarded, where American goods and American workmanship are the best in the world. That's what this is election is all about.

DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL SPOKESMAN: He turned around a 10 year economic slide and created a boom that has made Massachusetts one of the hottest economies in the country. He brought people together, created over 400,000 jobs and pushed personal income to the highest levels in the nation. He erased the massive deficit, balanced 10 budgets in a row, and cut taxes five times. It wasn't a miracle; it was leadership.

GOVERNOR MICHAEL DUKAKIS: [July 21, 1988] By working together to create opportunity and a good life for all, all of us are enriched, not just in economic terms, but as citizens and as human beings.

DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL SPOKESMAN: For a new era of economic greatness in America, Michael Dukakis for President. GERGEN & SHIELDS '88 CAMPAIGN ANALYSIS

MR. LEHRER: That brings us to Gergen and Shields, our regular campaign analysis team of U.S. News & World Report Editor David Gergen and Washington Political Columnist Mark Shields. Mark is with us from New Orleans.

MR. LEHRER: David, what do you think of that commercial?

DAVID GERGEN, U.S. News & World Report: Well, it was striking. It's interesting they're going to run a commercial recalling the Dukakis acceptance speech in Atlanta, the same week, of course, that George Bush is giving his acceptance address in New Orleans. I think they're running down the gauntlet and saying, okay, George Bush, you give a speech as good as the one we just heard.

MR. LEHRER: Mark, what did you think of the commercial?

MARK SHIELDS, Washington Post: I thought the commercial was a direct reaction to what Lee Atwater was talking about, Jim, and that is that this election is about change. George Bush and the Republicans want to make it threatening change, unreassuring change, and Michael Dukakis in that commercial is trying to say that the change that he represents will be reassuring. I don't particularly think it's terribly wise to spend a lot of money buying time while the other party's meeting in convention, but we're discussing it, so it's working for them.

MR. LEHRER: Okay. Let's talk about the convention. We heard what Lee Atwater just said. When Judy asked him about negative campaigning, negative attacks, he pointed out that during the Democratic Convention speaker after speaker launched personal attacks against George Bush. He's right about, isn't he?

MR. GERGEN: Well, there's no question about that and of course they did it with barbed humor, and it was pretty effective, and particularly the Teddy Kennedy speech. But what you see I think in Lee Atwater's conversation was very very interesting because it's what I think we're going to see this next week and that is namely I think that more and more Republicans are convinced that if this campaign is run on personalities, if it's George Bush's personality versus Michael Dukakis, they stand a good chance of losing. If they can get back to issues and say that Dukakis represents liberalism, the Democratic liberalism of the 60's and 70's, they have got a chance of winning, so they want to get back and paint Dukakis as farover to the left as they can and get away from making judgments about George Bush the man versus Michael Dukakis the man.

MR. LEHRER: And talk about the furlough of the murderers and all of that over and over again.

MR. GERGEN: Right. And I think what they feel very strongly about is Dukakis has been very clever, very effective at not saying much about the future, and what they've got to do is to highlight the vulnerabilities in his record, to create doubts about Dukakis. What they want to do, in effect, in the Republican side is say this is a gamble just like Reagan said today, it's a gamble to go for Dukakis. It's like a gamble of the first date. Don't bet the whole future on that. Make George Bush a more acceptable alternative through this convention.

MR. LEHRER: But, Mark, you agree, but not attack Dukakis, attack his positions, right?

MR. SHIELDS: I think that's the best way to do it, quite frankly. The issues go with the Republicans. I mean, we are in a time of peace. Ironically, the greatest cold war issue, the United States' relations with the Soviets, doesn't work as well as it does for George Bush as it has worked for previous Republican candidates because of Ronald Reagan's success, an arms reduction treaty with Mikhail Gorbachev, but I think it returns to a problem that George Bush has at this convention and he has to address it. It's more than peeling the paint off of Michael Dukakis. George Bush has to present himself as the positive instrument of change. He has to persuade people that he also represents change, because that's what the mood of the country is right now. Some 41 percent of the country according to Gallup think we're headed in the right direction, are satisfied with the way things are, and some 3/5 aren't, and that's the problem. George Bush cannot be the candidate of the status quo.

MR. LEHRER: Did you read your colleague, Charles Krautheimer's column today in The Washington Post?

MR. SHIELDS: I did not see The Washington Post today but I'll run out and get one.

MR. LEHRER: Sorry to embarrass you in front of your employers who may be watching. Well, David, I've read the column. Did you read the column?

MR. GERGEN: Yes.

MR. LEHRER: The point that he made, well, let's tell Mark --

MR. GERGEN: We'll save you a quarter, Mark.

MR. LEHRER: Oh, Mark, sorry about that. Mark, the point that he made was this, that it's unusual for a party in power at a time when there is peace and prosperity to be so far behind and that's because of George Bush and that's a serious problem, and that's essentially what you're saying, and you probably gave Krautheimer the idea and that's the reason you didn't read the column, right?

MR. SHIELDS: No. Charles is perfectly capable to come up with his own ideas and they're very good ones 97 percent of the time. I would say George Bush has a terribly ironic problem here. Here's George Bush who probably has as happy and complete a family life as any public figure who sought the Presidency in recent history. Michael Dukakis does too. I don't mean to contrast him that sense. And yet, Ronald Reagan wanted a pro-family agenda, the first divorced candidate ever to seek the Presidency, a man who quite frankly doesn't have a close relationship with his own children; George Bush does. And yet we don't know this about George Bush. We don't know the personal. George Bush is an authentic war hero. At the age of 18, against his mother's wishes, went in, enlisted as the youngest combat pilot in World War II, and yet dogging him is this sense of the wimp. Ronald Reagan who spent World War II on the back lot of Paramount making training films comes off with a swagger and the John Wayne mantle. So it is, there is a problem here. There is an unfairness about the Bush perception and I think it has to be addressed.

MR. LEHRER: And can he do it in his acceptance speech, David?

MR. GERGEN: He'd better be able to because a lot's riding on that acceptance address.

MR. LEHRER: How much is riding on it?

MR. GERGEN: I think in some ways there's more riding on the acceptance address than there is on the Vice Presidential choice. I can't see any Vice Presidential choice at this moment that is going to give him that much of a lift. He has to convince the voters that he, himself, is going to be a strong President, and it's really going to be in that speech rather than through his Vice Presidential choice that he'll send that message. Now he's had times in the past, and people have seen him rise to the occasion. Frankly, today when he was with Reagan, he was pretty flat by all accounts and Reagan was the one who was charming him, and what's going to face in this speech is real pressure from two sides. One is that Reagan will have spoken earlier that week and he's got to be as effective as Reagan and get the applause meters up as high and secondly, he's got to be as good as Dukakis, and that's a tough order. I think he's capable of doing it, but it's a lot to ask.

MR. LEHRER: Do you agree with Mark though that he has to enhance his, the feeling that people have about him, in other words, the good things he has going for him, he's got to get out there and he's got to speak about them in a way that is effective?

MR. GERGEN: I think that we would all agree that the camera is not particularly kind to George Bush, that in person a lot of people know him -- Mark knows him, I know him, you know him -- and when we know that in person he can be more charming, more forceful, more vigorous -- when he's in front of a camera he stiffens up and then sometimes does silly things. He does these sort of goofy things that people sort of say, well, what is going on here, and he has to sort of calm down and present himself as he truly is through the camera, and I think he's capable of doing that.

MR. LEHRER: Mark, do you agree with David on the Vice Presidential choice, it doesn't matter that much?

MR. SHIELDS: I agree because I have no idea who he's going to choose. If I had an idea, I would say it's the most important decision of his life.

MR. GERGEN: My point is if you look at the universe of people that he has to choose from, it's hard to see any single individual who is going to make that significant a difference.

MR. LEHRER: Either negatively or positively you mean?

MR. GERGEN: That's correct. I mean, there is no -- George Bush is in a position where he ideally would like someone from a big state who could bring that big state into the fold in the electoral college. And there is nobody who's now out there who's both from a big state who can bring it along with him who is also acceptable to the conservative wing of this party.

MR. LEHRER: What's your guess?

MR. GERGEN: As to where he's going to wind up?

MR. LEHRER: Yes.

MR. GERGEN: I think it's totally --

MR. LEHRER: What's your guess?

MR. GERGEN: My guess is that he will probably go for a surprise. My own surprise candidate right now is probably Pete Domenici.

MR. LEHRER: Pete Domenici, Mark Shields?

MR. SHIELDS: I like Pete Domenici. I've always been soft on Jack Kemp, but if I were George Bush, I'd pick Alan Simpson simply because I think that he can bring the game and the battle to Michael Dukakis far better than anybody else could with his marvelous humor.

MR. GERGEN: Mark, I happen to agree with you on that. There's been some reporting this week that Simpson is trying to convince the Bush forces that he is not the right man for the job. There is some question about whether he also has this pop up quality. I happen to think he's a very charming man, but I'm not sure he's going to be the man on the ticket.

MR. SHIELDS: Could I just say one thing, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Very quickly, sir.

MR. SHIELDS: Lee Atwater talked about it being a very unified convention. It is, but there's a major cleavage in this party that George Bush has to address and that is that the Republican Party is essentially a party of people who were born Democrats in their leadership roles, whether it's Jeane Kirkpatrick or Ronald Reagan, all the way through to the people that are going to be speaking to this convention, Phil Gramm who was nominated. George Bush is a native born Republican and he has to reassure those people who converted to Republicanism that he is one of them.

MR. LEHRER: I hear you -- we have to go.

MR. SHIELDS: And that's something else that he has to do within this hall and within this party this week.

MR. LEHRER: We're going to talk about it all next week in New Orleans. Thank you all very much. See you then. FOCUS - RESISTING THE TEMPTATION

MR. MacNeil: Next, the tempest over "The Last Temptation of Christ". The motion picture is being released ahead of schedule today in nine cities in the U.S. and Canada. The movie makers say the early release is designed to quell the protests their treatment of Jesus Christ has generated among many Christians. Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye of public station KCET reports from Los Angeles on the protest and the reaction. [Scene from "The Last Temptation of Christ"]

MOTHER ANGELICA, Eternal Word TV Network: I firmly believe that if that movie is allowed to go in movie houses, that the State of California is going to fall in the ocean! [Scene from "The Last Temptation of Christ"]

JOHN WARD, Catholic Bishop: This is not the last temptation. This is the ultimate exploitation of the greatest character in all of human history. [Scene from "The Last Temptation of Christ"]

ROBERT HYMERS, Fundamentalist Pastor: At least take the sex scene out of this movie because we fear that and we've heard a great deal about it that this sort of thing is going to happen to the movie screen. [Spraying a Red X on Poster Inscribed Sex Scene and Slitting it With Knife]

JEFFREY KAYE: The anger generated by the release of "The Last Temptation of Christ" has taken the form of threats, planned boycotts, petition gathering and demonstrations. Yesterday a crowd of 25,000 according to a police estimate showed up at Universal Studios to protest the Universal picture's release.

CHRISTIAN: I'm here because I love Jesus. He's my savior and I feel really bad that Universal would make a film that would defame Jesus.

CHRISTIAN: I could never imagine a movie about Jesus Christ being rated "R" because he was the purest man that ever lived.

MR. KAYE: Protests by conservative Christians have spurred several theater chains across the country to refuse to show the film which is based on a novel written in 1951.

FATHER JOHN BARTKE, Orthodox Church: You know the author of "The Last Temptation of Christ" was Nikos Kasasakis who was a Greek Orthodox, and exactly for writing this book he was both excommunicated and also the Church of Greece refused to have him buried in the Country of Greece, and we cannot really see where any good can possibly come out of taking a book that was condemned by the Orthodox Church and making it into a movie.

MR. KAYE: One of the protest organizers is Hollywood Producer Tim Penland.

TIM PENLAND: We know enough to know that this film is not an affirmation of faith. Whose faith --

MR. KAYE: Penland was hired by Universal Pictures, the film's distributor, to act as a go-between with Christian organizations. He eventually quit in protest.

TIM PENLAND, Producer: In the beginning I said, if this is a blasphemous film and you release it, they knew from the beginning that I would have to be down protesting. Their main problem is the film contains a story about a man who becomes the Messiah. By any theological understanding from scripture and history that is blasphemy. Jesus was the Messiah from the beginning of time. The sacrilege of course is to show Him as a bumbling fool, a wimp and all manner of things concerning that. [Scene from "The Last Temptation of Christ"]

MR. KAYE: The two hour, forty minute film does depict Jesus as a sometimes confused and tormented man struggling with his spirituality and humanity. One controversial scene not distributed to the press is a dream sequence which shows Jesus portrayed by Actor William DeFoe having sex with Mary Magdellan played by Barbara Hershey. The sex scene has protesters particularly riled up. At KKLA-FM, a religious radio station in Los Angeles, John Stewart uses his talk show to organize the demonstrations. Stewart would like to see Christ portrayed as He is depicted in the Bible.

JOHN STEWART, Talk Show Host: The Bible presents Christ as a sinless sacrifice, the lamb of God, but in this film, he is portrayed as a sinner and by its very terms, Jesus offends or violates the principles He sets forth very clearly. For example, you don't look upon a woman to lust after her or otherwise you've committed adultery in your heart. In this fantasy sequence, He's virtually -- in fact, I believe is violating the very thing that He says you shouldn't do.

MR. KAYE: What's wrong with putting out a film contrary to your point of view?

JOHN STEWART: That's certainly something people have the right to do if they so choose, but should a reputable film company is the question do it in such a way that it does go against the beliefs, feelings of so many people?

MR. KAYE: Why release a film that so many people would find so offensive?

THOMAS POLLOCK, Universal Pictures: Well, we felt that the film would be a positive affirmation of religion for many people. It certainly is for the film makers.

MR. KAYE: Universal Pictures President Thomas Pollock says the movie directed by Martin Scorsese is well within the mainstream of theological thought.

THOMAS POLLOCK: We believe that Martin Scorsese one of America's greatest film makers. His sincerity about this film, his passion to make it for 15 years, is so apparent. When you see the film, his own religious conviction is so strong all over it.

MR. KAYE: Scorsese originally tried to get the film made by Paramount but that company backed out in part because of protests by fundamentalist Christians. Scorsese is a former seminary student, a religious man who hopes people will be touched by the character of Jesus in the film.

MARTIN SCORSESE, Director: Taking the film seriously means taking the message seriously, the message of loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself. How does one practice that? I don't know. I don't know that's in the film how to do it, is to take the character of Jesus seriously and to feel for Him and to really care for Him, care about Him, what happens to Him in this picture. He's not a Jesus, as I said before, who walks in a room and he glows in the dark. He's real. I mean, he's tangible.

MR. KAYE: A similar positive view of the movie is held by the Episcopal Bishop of New York, Paul Moore. He talked with reporter Paul Heckinger.

RT. REV. PAUL MOORE, Episcopal Bishop: I've been around a long time, but I was deeply moved by this film. It was a real spiritual experience for me. It gave me new depths of understanding about the person of Jesus. I believe it is in good taste. Human life isn't pretty and clean. Human life is dirty. It has temptations. Sex is very much a part of human life, therefore, to depict Jesus in the midst of this in His own person, I think is right on. And I think there's nothing that indicates that Jesus sinned, only that He was tempted.

MR. KAYE: Unlike most of the film's detractors, Moore has seen the movie. Critics such as Talk Show Host John Stewart feel no need to view the film they are campaigning against?

MR. KAYE: How can you criticize a film you haven't seen?

JOHN STEWART: Well, I can criticize a lot of films I haven't seen because the content is well reported. Jesus is portrayed throughout the entire film according to the reports as a waffling individual who is unsure of His calling.

MR. KAYE: Such descriptions have prompted demonstrations around the country, particularly in the South. In Orlando, Florida, religious broadcaster George Crossley is gathering theater owners not to show the movie.

GEORGE CROSSLEY: What the petitions do is show that a large segment of the Central Florida community are absolutely opposed to this unGodly and immoral movie that portrays Jesus Christ as immoral and perverted and an absolute dolt.

MR. KAYE: Other protesters have urged stockholders in Universal's parent company, MCA Incorporated, to sell their shares. The leader of Campus Crusade for Christ suggested that Universal sell him all the copies of the film so he could destroy them. In the main, protests against the film have been orderly and dignified, but some demonstrations have been criticized as anti-Semitic. One Los Angeles fundamentalist pastor, Robert Hymers, led a protest outside a Jewish temple which he mistakenly believed was attended by the Chairman of MCA. On a television talk show Hymers repeated his message.

ROBERT HYMERS, Fundamentalist Pastor: If the Jewish community wants to have anti-Semitic backlash, then you're going to get it and it'll be your fault Rabbi.

MR. KAYE: Hymers and his well publicized protests have been vocally disavowed by other conservative Christians.

JOHN STEWART: The extreme minority have been given so much media attention and that's unfortunate. The mainstream people love the Jewish people and see this as not a Jewish/Christian issue, but it's an offense to religion in general.

MR. KAYE: Stewart and other protest leaders, notably the Rev. Donald Wildman of the Mississippi-based American Family Association, are stepping up their attacks on the movie and its distributors. They are calling on the public to boycott MCA and they want people to refuse to watch Universal movies and TV shows. [Scene from "The Last Temptation of Christ"]

MR. KAYE: But they are also aware that their protests may encourage the curious and instead of keeping people away, all the attention could keep the money changers busy at the box office. ESSAY - POP STAR

MR. MacNeil: Finally tonight our resident commentator on pop culture, Penny Stallings, has an essay about some less controversial movies released this summer.

PENNY STALLINGS: At three years in the making and a budget of a zillion semoleons, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" was a big gamble, what with its spindly plot and a star who was a complete unknown until a few weeks ago, but what a supporting cast, legendary Warner Brothers and Disney stars together for the first time, and what a gimmick, the best of several pop genres all rolled into one slap happy homage. Roger is a grab bag of pop references, hard boiled gum shoes, brassy dames with hearts of gold. It's pirendalian not to mention loony toonish in its self awareness. [Scene from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"]

MS. STALLINGS: Roger knows how to punch all your emotional buttons, how to make you laugh and choke up on cue, a quality it shares with another cartoon hit, Rambo III. In his latest, Sylvester Stallone also recycles beloved pop images, in this case his own. There he is, shirtless, pecs bulging, cradling an M-1 rocket, and pelting the Commies with Ramboisms. Oh, and speaking of muscles, how about Arnold Schwarzeneger in all his dead pan glory in another summer biggie, "Red Heat"? [Scene from "Red Heat"]

MS. STALLINGS: And then there's Clint Eastwood back for the seven time as "dirty Harry" in the "Dead Pool". [Scene from the "Dead Pool"]

MS. STALLINGS: Sure, we've seen it all before. That's why we come back again and again. Behind their cliches and cartoon mayhem, lies the same subtext, America's love affair with pop culture. America's national family is a young one, one founded by immigrants who learned English from vaudeville and the funny papers, one whose reigning demographic group grew up by the light of the cathode ray, logging thousands of hours of pop images before reaching the age of consent. It should come as no surprise then that our cultural tradition is visual rather than literary. Admittedly, there is something both wonderful and awful about that. What of the printed word? What of Shakespeare and the Greeks, of the great European tradition of music, painting and dance? Funny thing though Europeans happen to love our pop creations, as does the rest of the world. In fact, pop culture is our most sought after export. Britain and France have always adored our music and movies and now they're positively addicted to our prime time soaps as are the other 108 countries that broadcast Dallas and Dynasty. Rock'n roll flourishes from Pakistan to the Pampus. It's our calling card to friend and foe alike. Russia recently got a taste of Billy Joel. Wait till they get a load of Little Richard. And before long Roger and Sly and Arnie and Clint will be seen in all those far away places, everywhere there's a movie house or a VCR. So don't feel guilty if you want to sneak out of the office early to catch a feature of Roger or Rambo or any of this summer's other fizzy screen fare. If such pop confections are America's favorite leisure time contributions, a most popular contribution to the world, maybe that's because they're what we do best. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Friday, Edwin Meese on his last day in office signed an order permitting Independent Counsels to investigate members of Congress. He did it shortly before former Pennsylvania Governor Richard Thornburgh was sworn in at the White House to succeed him as Attorney General of the United States. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the Newshour tonight. Enjoy the weekend and we'll see you on Monday night when the Newshour originates from the Republican National Convention in New Orleans. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.