The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Interview with President of Egypt Anwar el-Sadat

ROBERT MacNEIL: Good evening. President Anwar el-Sadat of Egypt said today that Israel had not yet taken the difficult decision needed for a Middle East settlement, but he remained hopeful for an agreement in two months of further negotiations. Sadat`s comments were made in an interview with ABC News.

In Jerusalem Prime Minister Begin reported to his cabinet on the results of his Christmas talks with Sadat. Begin will speak publicly to the Israeli parliament tomorrow. In other world capitals, governments assessed the talks that produced, as European newspapers put it, "no Christmas miracle." In Washington the State Department said the U.S. was pleased at the progress made, and cautioned against regarding the talks as a failure.

One week before the Christmas summit, Sadat gave an interview to an American journalist which spells out in more complete form than ever before the thinking that led to his current peace initiatives and his reasons for believing they`ll succeed. The interviewer was Israeli-born writer and cartoonist Ranan Lurie. Mr. Lurie, who fought in three Arab-Israeli wars as a paratroop officer, now lives in the United States. His political columns and cartoons are distributed worldwide by King Features, and are now printed in the Cairo newspaper Al Akhbar. The conversation began with Sadat looking at drawings of himself. In his interview Mr. Lurie uses a conversational style different from the familiar hard-driving American television questioning. In this case, we feel, it offers a different view of the personality and thinking of the man Time magazine today named its Man of the Year.

The conversation took place a week ago Sunday in Sadat`s villa at Giza, outside Cairo, overlooking the Great Pyramids.

(Giza, Egypt, December 18, 1977.)

RANAN LURIE, Journalist: Mr. President, I`ll be very fair with you. You took a risk, that`s correct. But this risk turned out to be, number one, a tremendous triumph; this risk you took made you number one Arab leader of the century. No one can compete with you. Not Nasser, but with all due respect to your fellow man, I think that his place in history will be very small in comparison to yours. But not only you took a risk, but you came out a winner.

ANWAR el-SADAT, Egyptian President: It has been proved to you, and to the whole world, that this is not my personal initiative or personal wish or so; it has been proved that my people -- forty millions -- they have never been united like they are now behind this issue.

LURIE: That`s correct.

SADAT: When the worse comes to the worst, you shall find the Egyptian people true to their principles. They will never, whatever president they have or whatever happens here, they will stick to what we shall agree to. Be sure of this.

LURIE: And if there will be a revolution, let`s say by extreme groups...

SADAT: Here you commit the same fault that the Tripoli conference and those attendant in it have committed. This is like this: maybe through their shout you hear that they are asking the Egyptian officers to revolt against me and so. Don`t commit the same error. This country is a civilized country. I am having a regime here, a full democratic regime. There is no censorship on the press; we have our permanent constitution. We have such a freedom and such a system of institutions that no one can believe in such a very short time could have achieved this.

LURIE: You have opposition.

SADAT: I have opposition, yes. There are three parties now. One, the government party, the other is the opposition, the third one is leftists and communists. So you need not at all corunit the error of thinking that an officer will be in so time starting a revolution or a coup or so. We are civilized now. We have our permanent constitution, we have our system, we have our institutions; you need not fear at all from Egypt. Whenever the Egyptian people, as you have seen me before, I am only showing the true picture of the Egyptians, and I don`t think you can say that I have given a word and have gone back on it -- with anyone.

LURIE: That`s correct.

SADAT: Never. Be sure that this is the true image of the Egyptian people. Then, why do I tell you to take the risk? I`m telling you to take the risk. because it will pay; because you shall have this forty million people a hundred percent conscious to anything that happens and who will fight to ...

LURIE: For Israel.

SADAT: No. Will fight to fulfill their promise or to face anyone who is trying to undermine whatever we agree to.

LURIE: It was the gamble of the century.

SADAT: It was the gamble of the century, I quite agree with you. But I must tell you quite frankly, I know my people will agree to this, but not to this extent at all. I know, or I wouldn`t have taken the decision at all. I know my people would.

LURIE: I understand.

SADAT: Let me tell you this: last February, this year, when I was asked about the direct contact with Israel, I said no. Well, I am having the pulse of my people. When I felt that this is the time, I made it. I knew, but I didn`t imagine at all that it will be like this.

LURIE: Do you think that if Assad would come to Israel, for instance, the Syrian people would feel the same way?

SADAT: No. No, they are still living under the era of slogans, and the Ba`ath party really is hated and really is looked upon as a vicious party in the area here.

LURIE: This is the party that President Assad is ...

SADAT: But let me tell you this, quite frankly: the Ba`ath party is two percent in Syria. Ninety-eight percent are behind my initiative.

LURIE: In Syria.

SADAT: In Syria, yes.

LURIE: So it`s really only Assad that is ...

SADAT: It is the party, not Assad. The party. Assad himself is really a reasonable man. I know. He`s my friend.

LURIE: He`s your friend?

SADAT: Yes. And very reasonable.

LURIE: Could you, for instance -- let me ask you this: you know my background; do you think that Assad would see me for such an inter view where I could ask him direct questions the same way that I ask you?

SADAT: Never; never.

LURIE: He will not.

SADAT: Never.

LURIE: So how can you say that he`s reason able?

SADAT: Very reasonable, in the context of his party, and...

LURIE: Relative to his party.

SADAT: And the policy of the party. But very reasonable. And he`s the best of them all in the party.

LURIE: I see. But even so, he wouldn`t see -- although I am an American Israeli, that is not good enough for him, because I`m...

SADAT: Someone will attack him or so, and the party itself will attack him.

LURIE: I see. And how about Jordan? If King Hussein, for instance, would do it?

SADAT: King Hussein agrees to my initiative, and he declared this.

LURIE: When?

SADAT: He declared it.

LURIE: Why doesn`t he come?

SADAT: Officially he came here and told me; he declared it officially that he is with my initiative.

LURIE: Backing you.

SADAT: Yes; yes.

MacNEIL: Confidence in King Hussein; but Sadat had harsh and outspoken comments on the two Arabs prominent among those opposing his efforts, President Qaddafi of Libya and George Habash, leader of the rejectionist Palestinians.

SADAT: Really since a very long time, I had this conflict with ,Qaddafi, but I never attach any importance to what he says. He is known all over the Arab world, really, especially when I spoke of him, because he has lived with me in my house.

LURIE: He stayed in your house?

SADAT: Yes, he has lived with me there. With him his mother, his wife, his children -- he was just like one of my boys, really; and I treated him like that. Qaddafi is...

LURIE: Is his mother educated, an educated per son?

SADAT: No; no. Like all our mothers in the Arab world, they are not educated. My mother was not educated also. But really I found he is a mental case. So I don`t attach at all any importance to what he says. And he has done this in various phases before. When he visited with me here in the summer of `73 here, he was the joke of the whole Arab world -- really. And until this moment he is the joke of the whole Arab world.

LURIE: I think he is the joke of the entire world. You know, he suggested that England and France will convert to the Islam faith after the oil embargo if they want oil.

SADAT: As I told you, he is a mental case, the man. For that I don`t attach any importance at all to what he says or does. And he will never influence anyone in the Arab world -- at all. But he thought at one time, and it appears that he is still of the same idea, that because he has a checkbook in his pocket he can do anything he likes. Well, it has been proved to him that he can`t do anything at all, but he is a joke, as I told you, all over the Arab world. So I don`t attach any importance at all. He attacked me before the October War, during the October War, after the October War, the first disengagement agreement, after the second disengagement agreement, and until now. Well, as I told you, I never attach any importance to him at all. He will never influence anything in the Arab world, and he shouldn`t make us spend all this time talking about him, really. He doesn`t deserve it.

LURIE: Dr. Habash, the extreme so-called Palestinian liberator -- what could please him, for instance?

SADAT: Nothing at all would please him.

LURIE: Nothing at all.

SADAT: Nothing at all. At some time I always told my people, I`m sure he doesn`t know what you want. Really. It is only sabotage in every way and in every direction. So I don`t attach any importance to him at all.

MacNEIL: Next the conversation turned to the Israeli leaders, Begin and his predecessor, Rabin. Sadat said he was unsure whether Menachem Begin was trustworthy. It was President Ceausescu of Romania who persuaded him to trust Begin.

SADAT: Lately when I visited Romania and had a discussion with Ceausescu I asked him two questions. I told him I want the answer after Begin`s visit to Romania. Number one, is Begin genuine for peace, or no? Number two, is he strong enough to do this? Because I know this process is a very complicated and a very hard one. But it can be at the same time very easy whenever there is leadership and decision and a strong leader. Well, Ceausescu answered me. He said he had a talk with Begin for six hours, tete-1tete.

LURIE: Nonstop six hours?

SADAT: No, on two days he had six hours tete-a-tete, and he has two hours in the delegation. He told me the details about his talks in the six hours with Begin, and he said yes, the man is genuine for peace. Number two, the man is strong enough to take the decision. Because I know, after all this mobilization in the public opinion in Israel and in the Arab world, it will be very difficult, for one of the motives behind my initiative was this, that let us have a breakthrough in this vicious circle, and once and for all get rid of it. So when I was sure of this, I started making my calculations for this initiative. With Rabin it was different. Yes, Rabin - - especially in the second disengagement agreement -- proved that he is not a strong leader.

MacNEIL: But in Sadat`s view of history, the current peace process actually began four years ago, when he ordered Egyptian troops to cross the Suez Canal and attack Israeli forces, thus setting off the fourth Middle East war.

SADAT: Maybe you have read that five days before the October War, when I met with my security council, I told them that our economy is below zero. But we needed to start war at that time for the very important reason, not for war, but to prove to you and to the whole world, and to ourselves, that we can fight. And because we were really very deeply injured after the defeat of `67.

LURIE: That was a terrible war.

SADAT: Yes. So it was to prove to you, to the whole world, to ourselves...

LURIE: Especially to yourselves.

SADAT: Quite right. So whenever we have achieved this in the strategical directive that I gave to Marshall Ismael before the battle, I think it is time we shall declare it; you shall see I didn`t aim at all at throwing Israel to the sea, even if we have reached the Israeli borders. I directed my commander in chief, Marshall Ismael, to prove to you through his military action that the theory of security that has been adopted by you is wrong, and to prove to the whole world that we can fight, we can face whatever we shall be facing, either from the new technology or the sophisticated arms, or any thing. After that, it was quite natural that we sit and then discuss...

LURIE: You could have fought in a way. President Sadat, you want to say that you started the `73 war not in order to conquer lands, not in order to kill Israelis, but simply to prove a very important point, that Egypt can fight and win.

SADAT: That`s right; quite right.

LURIE: And these were your final military objectives.

SADAT: Quite right.

LURIE: Can we continue and say that that was the reason that your tanks did not move beyond a certain line in the Sinai?

SADAT: Not at all. Believe me, I was aiming in the second phase of my battle to reach the passes.

LURIE:I see. That was your final destination, the passes over Mitla.

SADAT: Yes.

LURIE: Why?

SADAT: The ammunition I have, the arms I have could bring me just to this place. But I had a theory, even during the time of Nasser; and the late General Beaufre of France...

LURIE: Yes; he was a paratrooper, right?

SADAT: He has been a paratrooper, quite right.

LURIE: I know him.

SADAT: Well, I told him I always had a theory: it was not killing the Israelis that was my aim at all, no. During Nasser`s time I always told Nasser, if we cross the Canal and take ten centimeters on the eastern bank and stand fast in it, I told him, everything will be changed. Yes, I told this to Beaufre at that time, and this was my idea, really. Because at that time I didn`t have sufficient arms, ammunition or anything to go beyond the passes. But I knew even before the passes whenever I win the battle, everything will be changed. And this has happened; you can see my people now. Your delegation yesterday, I was told, in the synagogue in the center of Cairo, met with my people and so. I don`t want you to be disillusioned. My people are satisfied now, because they have proved themselves. They have again the full confidence in themselves, after the October War.

LURIE: It`s a very disturbing question I`m going to ask you, but you allow me everything. I learned in Egypt that the people, your people, think that the Israeli army, commanded by General Sharon, was saved by the Americans instead of the third army that was encircled by the Israelis. How do we explain that?

SADAT: The Americans told me, we shall be fighting with the Israelis against you. And we shall be teaching you a lesson; we shall never permit the Soviet weapon to win again.

LURIE: The Americans said that they will send troops to fight and save the Israelis.

SADAT: No. They said if you are going to eliminate this pocket, we shall join the Israelis. Because I ask this, I ask, it`s given.

LURIE: American soldiers?

SADAT: Look, I don`t know, whatever they are going to do; but Kissinger told me quite plainly, if you are going to eliminate this pocket...

LURIE: Sharon`s pocket.

SADAT: Yes. Because I asked Kissinger, I asked him, what is the attitude of the United States if I eliminate this pocket? He said, we shall join with Israel, and you have to take the consequences.

MacNEIL: From these revelations about U.S. warnings four years ago, Sadat moved to the present, to the thorniest issue in the present negotiations -- the future of Israeli control over the occupied West Bank.

LURIE: And I asked him, "You are now the Israeli chief of staff; Israel has returned to the 1967 borders. Tell me as a soldier, a good, excellent, professional soldier, as an honest man, do you feel secure here?" You know what he told me? He said, "Ranan, with Sinai we have no problems." He`s speaking as an Israeli. "Golan Heights also; not that bad. The only danger

I see is coming from the direction of the West Bank, Tul Karm, Qalqilyah." I was in charge of this little bottleneck during the Six-Day War facing Tul Karm, and it`s I think about nine, ten kilometers from the sea. When I interviewed General Sharon a very short time ago, he said, "I want the West Bank not for Biblical reasons or for religious reasons." He said, "I`m not religious. I need it for security reasons." And I`ll quote him exactly. He says, "If Arab mortars will hit Tel Aviv, all life in Israel is paralyzed." President Sadat, what do we do about the problem of security of the West Bank, assuming that we do not want -- any side does not want guarantees given by superpowers?

SADAT: I must tell you this: when I was in Jerusalem, I have discussed this problem really in general lines, but I didn`t go to details in it. You remember, in Jerusalem I said very well, whenever you ask for you security, you are right. I quite agree to this issue. Because I`m worried, me myself also, for my security. And we should sit together and discuss the security problem, and let us raise the slogan, "There will be no war after the October War." In such an atmosphere like this, whenever we sit together I think we can reach agreement. But I must tell you this quite frankly, security cannot be achieved through either taking others` land -- a few kilometers here or a few kilometers there. Security can be a fact when it depends upon the real intentions. What is the use of a few kilometers here or a few kilometers there, when the intentions are not true? That`s what I told your officials there in Jerusalem, and that is what we shall be sitting together here in Cairo to discuss; and whenever both of us feel that we are secure enough, very well, let us sign the peace agreement, and so.

LURIE: And if Qaddafi or Habash or Yassir Arafat will start shouting...?

SADAT: Well, they have already shouted a lot, and they will continue. You remember after the second disengagement agreement, I was attacked for one and a half years vehemently by all of them. But at the end they said, we are sorry. I know; I know. Really, I have no difficulty at all in concluding the establishment of peace in the area this time, and as I told you, it is possible. And it is in our hands. And maybe I was thinking the same thing before I visited Jerusalem, but after the visit to Jerusalem I can say that it is a fact. Really a fact.

MacNEIL: That interview was filmed by a camera crew from NBC News. That`s all for tonight. We`ll be back tomorrow night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Good night.