The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MAC NEIL: Good evening. I'm Robert MacNeil in New York.

MR. LEHRER: And I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington. After our summary of the news this Wednesday, we have a report and a discussion about the militia movement in America, excerpts from the confirmation hearings of John Deutch to be director of central intelligence, and a Kwame Holman report on how the Contract With America is playing back home in Texas. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: There was a moment of silence throughout Oklahoma City today at 9:02 AM, the exact time of the bombing one week ago today. Gov. Frank Keating was at the bomb site, along with police, firemen, and others involved in the ongoing rescue effort. Near Washington, President Clinton attended the funeral of Secret Service agent Alan Whicher. He recently was transferred from the President's detail to head the Oklahoma City office. He died in the explosion. Mr. Clinton declared Oklahoma City a disaster area today, making it eligible for federal aid. He met with members of Congress at the White House this afternoon to discuss the situation, and then he talked to reporters.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I asked the leaders of Congress from both parties to come to the White House today because I know that we have a shared commitment to do everything we possibly can to stamp out the kind of vicious behavior we saw in Oklahoma City. Everyone here is determined to do that, and I want us to work together to get the job done. On Sunday, I announced the first series of steps we must take to combat terrorism in America. Today I am announcing further measures grounded in common sense and steeled with force. These measures will strengthen law enforcement and sharpen their ability to crack down terrorists wherever they're from, be it at home or abroad. This will arm them with the investigative tools, increased enforcement and tougher penalties. I say again justice in this case must be swift, certain, and severe, and for anyone who dares to sow terror on American land justice must be swift, certainly severe. We must move on these law enforcement measures quickly. We must move so we can prevent this kind of thing from happening again. We cannot all our entire country to be subjected to the horror that the people of Oklahoma City endured. We can prevent it. We must do everything we can to prevent it. I know that we will do this together without regard to party.

MR. LEHRER: The President's proposals include hiring 1,000 new law enforcement officials to deal with terrorism. In Oklahoma City today, the death toll rose to 98. Fire Chief Gary Marrs said high winds were hampering the rescuers. One hundred and five people are believed to still be missing. In Wichita, Kansas, Terry Nichols is being held as a material witness in the case. He's a friend of Timothy McVeigh, the only person charged so far in the bombing. A U.S. attorney in Washington said McVeigh spoke with Nichols three days before the bombing and said, "Something big is going to happen," but he wouldn't say what. Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: The so-called unabomber has spelled out conditions for ending his 17-year campaign of terror that has killed three people and injured twenty-three others. In a letter sent to the "New York Times," he demanded that major publications print an article advocating his group's desire to do away with the worldwide industrial system. The serial bomber also threatened to strike again if his demand was not met. Authorities said he's responsible for Monday's package bombing in Sacramento, which killed a forest industry lobbyist. The letter to the "Times" and several other publications were delivered shortly before that bombing.

MR. LEHRER: The Supreme Court ruled today that a federal law barring firearms near schools was unconstitutional. The vote was a divided five to four. The majority opinion said schools were a local concern and Congress could not impose such restrictions. A federal advisory panel on child abuse issued its report today. It said 2,000 children die every year from abuse. Half of them are less than one year old. The executive director of the advisory board spoke at a news conference in Washington.

DEANNE DURFEE, Child Abuse & Neglect Advisory Board: While at least 2,000 children a year die from abuse and neglect, shockingly, some 18,000 are permanently disabled from near fatal abuse, and nearly 142,000 are seriously injured from severe abuse that by chance didn't kill them. More children in this country age one to four die from child abuse and neglect than from falls, choking on food suffocation, drowning, house fires, or automobile accidents.

MR. LEHRER: The 15-member board was appointed by Congress. It spent two and a half years studying child abuse problems.

MR. MAC NEIL: Confirmation hearings began today for deputy defense secretary John Deutch to become CIA director. He told members of the Senate Intelligence Committee he would make changes at the agency. Among them, he promised to appoint new and younger managers and eliminate redundancy within the CIA and with other intelligence organizations. We'll have excerpts from today's hearing later in the program. In economic news, the Commerce Department reported orders for durable goods rose .6 of a percent in March. The increase was attributed to a jump in electronic equipment. Durables are big ticket items like cars and appliances that last more than three years.

MR. LEHRER: Several hundred refugees in Rwanda remained barricaded in a camp today after a massacre there last weekend. Thousands returned to their villages. They were forced out of the camp by government troops. Many didn't want to leave because they feared reprisals for the ethnic violence that racked the country during last year's civil war.

MR. MAC NEIL: A Bosnian Serb pleaded "not guilty" to the charge of war crimes at a UN tribunal in the Netherlands today. It was the first such tribunal held since World War II. We have more in this report from Jonathan Monro of Independent Television News.

JONATHAN MONRO, ITN: Dunsam Tadic, wanted by the world for crimes against humanity, finally came before an international court this morning, the first defendant of the war crimes tribunal in Europe since the Nazis. Charges of murder, rape, and genocide are filed against him.

SPOKESPERSON: Mr. Tadic, are you ready to enter a plea to the indictment?

MR. TADIC: [speaking through interpreter] Not guilty, and I never took part in any of the crimes with which I am charged.

MR. MONRO: Tadic was, it's claimed, behind a string of atrocities at the Amarshma Camp in Bosnia. ITN was shown evidence of beatings by Serb guards. The UN believes Tadic performed acts like these using wooden batons, metal rods, and rifle butts. The investigation into Tadic's activities continues and it's likely to be the summer before a full trial begins, with a maximum penalty available of life imprisonment.

MICHAIL WLADIMIROFF, Defense Attorney: The defense will be according to two lines, that is, we will defend on the facts and some legal matters.

MR. MONRO: Tadic, himself, was driven back to prison. The next time he's in court it may be face to face with the surviving victims of his alleged crimes.

MR. MAC NEIL: The latest cease-fire in Bosnia continued to be violated today by both sides in the conflict. Serb gunners and government forces exchanged mortar and heavy machine gun fire in the Northeast Bosnia area overnight. The zone of fire included a key land corridor to Serbia proper.

MR. LEHRER: Japanese police today raided 88 more branches of the cult suspected in the Tokyo subway attack. They also arrested several more members of the sect, including two leaders. For the first time, police officially linked the raids and the arrests to last month's gas attack which killed 12 people and injured more than 5,000. Protesters in Northern Japan failed to stop a ship carrying radioactive nuclear waste from docking today. The local governor had refused to let the ship dock until he was assured the waste would not be stored there permanently. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to the militia movement, the Deutch hearings, and a contract report from Texas. FOCUS - MILITIA MOVEMENT

MR. MAC NEIL: First tonight, the paramilitary and anti-government groups that have come to wider attention after the terror bombing in Oklahoma City. The principal suspect, Timothy McVeigh, and two men arrested yesterday on weapons charges have been associated with militia groups. We start with a background report. The bombing occurred two years to the day from the violent end to the siege at the Branch Davidian compound at Waco, Texas. What at first seemed only a strange coincidence may, in fact, turn out to be a key to unlocking the investigation, for it was the long siege and final attack at Waco in which more than 70 people died that's become the defining moment for a growing movement of anti-government extremist groups. Waco is viewed by such groups as the most blatant in a series of oppressive acts by a tyrannical federal government. Another often cited case is the August 1992 Idaho siege at the home of Randy Weaver, a white supremacist. In the final gun battles, Weaver's wife and teenage son were killed, as well as a federal marshal. Weaver has become a hero to many extremists whose opposition to gun control, taxation, and other issues has grown into a potentially violent anti-government movement. That movement now includes so-called militia or patriot groups that function in at least 30 states, many conducting paramilitary training. One such state now in the spotlight is Michigan, home to James and Terry Nichols, the two brothers now being held as material witnesses in the Oklahoma bombing. News reports have linked the Nichols brothers and Timothy McVeigh to another Michigan resident, Mark Koernke, a self-proclaimed militia activist who rails against the government in a shortwave radio call-in show and videotapes which he distributes throughout the country.

MARK KOERNKE, Militia Organizer: Well, the date today is 9 December, 1993, one day closer to victory here in the occupied states, brought to you not from Radio Free America but from Little Brother Information Network. Big Brother is watching. Little Brother has a very big mouth.

MR. MAC NEIL: Yesterday, Correspondent Elizabeth Brackett spoke to Koernke's associate, John Stadtmiller. Stadtmiller denied any connection to the Oklahoma bombing.

JOHN STADTMILLER, Militia Organizer: I don't know who was behind it. Was this the action of a single individual, a committee of one, let's say? Was it trying to be painted as a militia movement or a terrorist act by a group of individuals?

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Who would have tried to paint that picture?

JOHN STADTMILLER: Well, the media, itself. We jumped from Middle East terrorism -- the story at the same time came out that this is possible retribution for Waco, Texas. And it started from there and then ran the gamut up to and included a co-host that I have on my shortwave radio program that somehow Mark Koernke was involved in this, which was just absolutely false, but the implications were still made?

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Who would have wanted those implications to be made? The question is: Do you think possibly the federal government could have been behind the bombing?

JOHN STADTMILLER: That is a very interesting question. I think the information that is going to come out of this investigation should be held open to all. And I think the best way to do that is to find out in a court of law and have an open court. You know, one of the things that we talk about -- we talk about Waco. The thing that people forget is that there was a siege that took place on a church for 51 days, but where was the televised trial?

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: For most people, it's inconceivable that the federal government could have had anything to do with the bombing in Oklahoma City. Why isn't it inconceivable for you?

JOHN STADTMILLER: Well, because it fits into an agenda. If you have -- if you have people that are interested in taking control, control, and let me preface that by saying what we have is an overblown bureaucracy, a federal government that is out of control, that wants to take more control -- I mean, we're paying more tax dollars. We're giving up more liberties and freedoms, for what? For a better life. I think what we're talking about is returning to the core of what made this country great, and I might throw this in there, that this is the finest nation that's ever been on the face of the earth. And the militias and the patriot organizations, good Americans across the United States, are really interested in seeing us return to those values and principles. I think that's most important.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Could it take violence to see that those values are returned to?

JOHN STADTMILLER: Hopefully not, but in the eventuality I think people are preparing. I think that's a sound idea. The militias are forming because of -- and not unfounded -- fears that the government's -- the government of the United States wishes to become an army present, oppressive type of government, something foreign to what most people perceive as the United States government as being, but, nevertheless, there it is.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Do you think there will be violence between the United States government and the militia movement?

JOHN STADTMILLER: Hopefully not. Hopefully not. I would -- I don't think anybody in their right mind would like to see something like that take place. The idea of -- of another civil war taking place on this soil is, is not anything that anybody is interested in seeing.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: How close do you think we are to something like that?

JOHN STADTMILLER: If this present trend keeps up, it's just a matter of time. I mean, it's imminent. In my estimation, it would be imminent.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: And what are the militias doing to prepare people for that?

JOHN STADTMILLER: What they're doing is trying to prepare other people. Knowledge is the key to this thing. If we can get enough people on board that really are interested in changing the course of this country and stop the tailspin of the two, this can be averted, this can be stopped, but there's some very basic things that have to take place.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: And can you change the tailspin, as you see it, without violence?

JOHN STADTMILLER: Hopefully so, but just in case if it doesn't happen, that's what the militias are for.

MR. MAC NEIL: One way militia groups around the nation communicate with one another is through computer bulletin boards. Several days ago, our Los Angeles Correspondent Jeffrey Kaye used the computer to make contact with members of a Missouri militia group. Today he met with them face to face.

JEFFREY KAYE: Harold Sheil, a retired arson investigator, is a spokesman for the Missouri 51st Militia, one of nine militia organizations in the state. The 51st Militia, which formed last December, takes its name from the 51-day standoff in Waco two years ago. We spoke to members of the 400-member group at Sheil's suburban Kansas City home earlier today. Was anybody surprised by the bombing in Oklahoma City?

HAROLD SHEIL, Missouri 51st Militia: I was surprised at the magnitude of the bombing.

MAN IN GROUP: I was definitely surprised.

JEFFREY KAYE: What do you mean by the magnitude?

HAROLD SHEIL: I fully expect with the direction the government's taking for there to be civil unrest. And I don't mean that themilitia would do that, but it's historically proven that when you oppress the people, then you can expect civil unrest. And the oppression caused by the government now, or the bureaus now, is bound to caused some reaction from the citizens. And I never expected anything of that magnitude to happen, but I did expect for their to be instances of civil unrest. You have to remember, one of the things that the people really fear from the government is the idea that government can ruin your life, totally destroy your life. I don't mean kill you. But they can totally destroy your life, split your family up, do the whole thing, and walk off like you're a discarded banana peel with a ho-hum attitude. That's what frightens the people of America.

JEFFREY KAYE: Where do you believe your liberties have been impinged upon by the federal government?

JIM McKINZEY, Missouri 51st Militia: Well, there's literally thousands of liberties -- thousands of things that my liberties have been infringed upon. One item is just going out and buying a firearm. The Bill of Rights gives us the right to be armed, but yet, you have to go out and fill out paperwork, both state and federal, in order for a law-abiding citizen to own this weapon. To me, that is against the Constitution.

JEFFREY KAYE: Are there other examples?

JIM McKINZEY: Yeah. Like I said, there's countless examples. If you read the Constitution, you'll find that the federal government is very limited on what they can do within the bounds of the Constitution. Some of these items are requiring that on our highways we only drive 55 miles an hour. I read nothing in the Constitution that says that the federal government can tell me how fast I can drive my automobile. Carrying a Social Security card - - the federal government requires that I have one. I don't read that in the Constitution anywhere. And I can go on and on with examples like this.

PAULA McKINZEY, Missouri 51st Militia: OSHA's out of control.

JEFFREY KAYE: The Occupational, Safety, and Health Administration.

PAULA McKINZEY: Exactly. Affecting businesses throughout the country, and it's like the politicians don't have a clue of what's going on, to what they're doing to businesses. The regulations that they're enforcing on people, they're, they're intended for safety, but they've gone to the ridiculous side. They would be what I would consider extremists. And they're -- they're not cost justifiable. and from a business point of view, you have to look at what's cost justifiable at the same time that you're looking at what's safe.

CHUCK WITTIG, Missouri 51st Militia: I own a small farm. Part of my farm is wet through the springtime, and under this federal Wetlands Act, it's considered a wetland. It's a mud puddle. I mean, it's a glorified mud puddle. No self-respecting duck would land in it, but it's impossible for me to plow that field. It's not impossible, but if I get caught plowing that field, if I get caught farming that field, or changing anyone that would drain the water away from it, they can confiscate my farm because it's protected, because it's supposedly protected. It's a glorified mud puddle. It is not a wetland.

JEFFREY KAYE: Where did this rage, this anger come from? Could you explain it?

BILL JOHNSON, 10th Amendment Coalition: I've watched it develop over the last couple of years, and it's mostly due to the fact that people do not feel like they can change the government in a political fashion any longer -- things have happened -- or if they do act in a political manner, it doesn't seem to make any difference tothe bureaucracies under 'em or to what's happening to them in their communities.

JEFFREY KAYE: There was just a sea change in Washington.

BILL JOHNSON: I agree, and the one point I'd like to make is that here in Missouri, this was what astounded me, most of the militias in Missouri formed in late December and early January, and where a lot of people, including myself, thought that this would be a safety valve, having, you know, a very conservative Congress come in, it didn't seem to make any difference at all. And I think partly it might be due to a vote on GATT or the bailout of Mexico, or a number of things that many Americans were against, and yet these items were enacted anyway.

JEFFREY KAYE: Right. And I understand what you're saying, but I think what many people will have a difficulty understanding is connecting that political belief with what you feel is a need to stockpile food and weapons because you feel you may be physically attacked at some point. How do you get --

JIM McKINZEY: Stockpiling weapons and food is only one aspect of what a militia is about.

JEFFREY KAYE: But that's the aspect that we're talking about. You think it may come to a physical attack on you.

JIM McKINZEY: Well, I think there is a far greater chance that a tornado is going to come through and devastate my neighborhood where I'm going to have to defend my house against looters, and I'm going to have to feed my family because we can't get to the grocery store. Now, if that's sinister, I'm sorry, but I'm still going to continue to do it.

HAROLD SHEIL: If that's sinister, then so are the Boy Scouts, because their motto is: "Be prepared." And you can take a look at the militia, and we're grown-up Boy Scouts. We enjoy the camaraderie of one another, and, you know, this is something nobody wants to hear. They don't want to believe that we're that benign, but we actually are. The thing is it's not retaliation, it's total, totally the idea of being able to defend yourself. Why be naked in the world? You know, an armed world all around you, why should you be naked? And we feel that way.

MR. LEHRER: Now a discussion among four people who have studied the militia movement in its various forms around the country. Morris Dees is executive director of the Southern Poverty Law Center. James Aho is a professor of sociology at Idaho State University. Glenn Reynolds is an associate professor of law at the University of Tennessee. Mike Williams is a contributing writer for "Soldier of Fortune Magazine." He was a major in the army's special forces. Mr. Reynolds, grown-up Boy Scouts, is that how the militia movement and their members should be defined?

GLENN REYNOLDS, University of Tennessee: Well, the Boy Scouts, themselves, once had a paramilitary component, of course, but it wouldn't be my first impression.

MR. LEHRER: What would yours be? How would you define them?

MR. REYNOLDS: Well, it's hard to define them because the militia is a sort of post-modern movement, i.e., they're very diverse and very loosely organized. But there are sort of two components to the militia movement, a sort of nutty component and a non-nutty component. The nutty component is all this stuff about black helicopters and conspiracies involving the UN and so on, a fear that sort of seams to look like a cross between "Red Dawn" and "Schindler's List." The non-nutty component grows out of two things. One is a sense that the federal government has grown beyond its constitutional bounds, which I think it is a very respectable opinion and be with the Supreme Court in the case ofU.S. against Lopez that you mentioned earlier in the newscast said today.

MR. LEHRER: What about the guns, buying guns around schools decision?

MR. REYNOLDS: Well, it had to do with possession of guns around schools. It's really a commerce clause and not a gun case.

MR. LEHRER: Okay. Got you.

MR. REYNOLDS: The second part of the militia ideology has to do with the Second Amendment, and, again, the sort of mainstream militia thought on the Second Amendment is very close to the vast majority of the scholarly commentary on what the Second Amendment means. That protects a right of individual citizens to be armed, and that the purpose of it is to prevent a tyrannical government. And that's black letter law almost, but the difference is that where the militia movements -- at least they're more fanatical -- sort of lose the thread is that the framers also had a very exacting definition of what a tyrannical government was and when it was appropriate to start thinking about revolting against it. And if you apply the test the framers had of what constituted a legitimate revolution like the American Revolution, rather than a mere insurrection or rebellion, which they regarded as just other varieties of crime, you can't really find any justification for armed revolt today, and that's really the distinction.

MR. LEHRER: Okay. Professor Aho, do you see a nutty and a non- nutty component today? How would you describe the movement?

JAMES AHO, University of Idaho: Well, we have to make the distinction between nutty ideas and nutty people. There's no evidence whatsoever that these people are more insane or neurotic than the typical American. But some of the ideas of -- a lot of the ideas are very, very bizarre, the notions of conspiracy, Soviet electromagnetic warfare, and other kinds of ideas -- the accusations or suggestions that Bill Clinton is a murderer and these kinds of things. Where do they get these kinds of ideas? Well, there is a very vast partly above ground, largely underground right wing extremist media consisting of, of high quality published books, pamphlets, videotapes, cassette tapes. Now, there's the Internet, the shortwave radio on it, and there's AM radio stations. And people read this. They access this information, and they have their paranoia and their absolutism confirmed. There's a wonderful --

MR. LEHRER: Excuse me. In other words, they bring their paranoia to the videotape or to the Internet or whatever it is, they're already paranoid, and then this just confirms it, is that it?

PROFESSOR AHO: One of the wonderful things -- one of the great attractions of conspiratorial theories is they can never be disproven because everything can be taken as evidence of further conspiracy. Witness the, the bizarre theory that the government, itself, bombed the, the federal facility in Oklahoma City. So everything that you do, whether it's benign or malevolent, is still another sign of the conspiracy. There's no escaping it. It can never be disproven. And that must be very intellectually satisfying to a lot of people who are looking for certainty in their lives.

MR. LEHRER: Well, what causes them to be looking for that?

PROFESSOR AHO: Well, I think we're all -- everybody is insecure. Everybody has their anxieties, and we're all seeking a secure foothold somewhere in the cosmos, and people get it in different ways. Some people find Jesus. Other people find certain kinds of drugs, certain kinds of cults they might join, and as I think it was Stadtmiller said some people join a grown-up version of the Boy Scouts, and I think that is a -- I think that is a -- one of the good ways of looking at the -- at the militia. It is -- it is men approximately at my age who, it seems to me, if -- if the pictures of these people are typical, who need a little exercise, and they dress up in their own outfits and they carry around guns, and they do map reading and this kind of thing, then, all right, that's fine. And there's no danger in that. They have every right in the world to do that, at least in this country.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Dees, how do you see these people?

MORRIS DEES, Southern Poverty Law Center: Well, I looked at the group sitting around a table in Missouri, and the things that they was talking about was political issues, minor things, paying taxes or farmland issues. They're not major issues that paramilitary militias are dealing with in this country. This is a new group, and I doubt if they even understand what the militia of Montana is doing, really the founding militia set up by John Trotman. John Trotman was a major speaker at the Aryan Nations Convention in 1990, a well-known anti-semite who fears that this country, it was going to be undertaken or overtaken by some kind of world government, some kind of new order. The militia, as the professor said, exposed to pretty violent materials in 1980 this stuff started not just recently. In 1980, a group called The Order, who took its directions from a book called The Turner Diaries. It involved blowing up the federal building to start a revolution in our country. This group got serious. They robbed armored cars in Ukiah, California. They killed the radio talk show host, Alan Berg. Down in Texas, I had a case representing the Vietnamese fishermen, and they had a group called the Texas Emergency Reserve, headed by Louis Beam, an ex-military person, 2500 people training in pure military tactics. We got the federal court to rule that they violated Texas's law of having a private army. In our country, you can't have a private army. Most states outlaw private armies. When the Second Amendment said you had the right to have a militia, it said a well regulated militia. And that's the point I think these people are missing.

MR. LEHRER: Do you think that these -- that all of the militias, there are thirty some of them around the country -- all of them had this base of violence and should be feared and should be seen as a danger?

MR. DEES: No. I don't think all the people in these militias should, but at the Southern Poverty Law Center, we have a militia task force we set up last October, and we found in about eight of these militias, including the militia in Michigan, clear evidence of, of violent behavior that could take place, of training with explosive material and things of that nature. And I wrote a letter to the attorney general, Janet Reno, and the attorney generals of the states involved pointing out that this was a recipe for disaster, and we urged them to follow through. We sent all our background material with it. The people that you hear here are, that listen to some of these radio talk shows, that go into the Midwest, that ask people to stockpile weapons and join the militia, such as Chuck Baker out of Colorado Springs, Colorado, and others, they are echoing some of the things that they're saying. Obviously, there is a common thread among all of these groups and that is an intense hatred for our government. They see our government as the tyrants, the ATF, the FBI as tyrants, and they see themselves as the patriots. And I think that's kind of where the problem is.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Williams, do yousee a problem with the militia, and, if so, where?

MIKE WILLIAMS, Soldier of Fortune Magazine: No, I don't see the problem with the militia, and I've been listening very carefully to what the gentleman said, some of which I agree with, others, obviously, I do not.

MR. LEHRER: What do you disagree with the most?

MR. WILLIAMS: Basically, the statement made concerning the state of Texas. In 1949, the voters in the state of Texas voted out a portion of the Constitution which allowed the state legislature and the governor to control Texas militias. When that was voted out at the present time due to the Texas constitution, neither the legislature nor the governor have any control whatsoever on individuals within the state of Texas who are law-abiding and do not break any laws from going out in the boonies and running around in camels and with weapons.

MR. LEHRER: I hear you. Bad question on my part. Let me just ask you specifically: Do you think that the American people generally, or the country as a society has anything to fear from the militia movement as it exists nationally right now?

MR. WILLIAMS: No, I do not.

MR. LEHRER: Why not?

MR. WILLIAMS: I'm basing this on the amount of time I spent researching and preparing the article. You cannot say the militia as a whole because the militia is composed of a cross-section of the United States of America. You have fringes on the left, fringes on the right. The center of the militia movement is composed of hard-working, decent people. Soldier of Fortune Magazine doesn't take sides one way or the other. We report what we find, what we can document.

MR. LEHRER: Where does this fear, Mr. Williams, this fear of the federal government come from?

MR. WILLIAMS: Basically from my research with the people involved it comes from initially from Waco, actually from Ruby Ridge first, then Waco, and the latest case comes from Central Pennsylvania, a family, Harry Lamplou and his wife Theresa.

MR. LEHRER: And what do they believe that the federal government is going to do to them? I mean, they don't accept the fact that the ATF had a right to -- that they were enforcing federal laws against the Branch Davidian people, that the Branch Davidians had a right to have all these arms, et cetera, et cetera, is that the deal, that they were law-abiding citizens, and the ATF went in there illegally and oppressed these people and killed them?

MR. WILLIAMS: There are two stories about the, the raid on Waco. One is the government's story that's put forth. The other is the story put forth by the Branch Davidian survivors who were in the compound at the time.

MR. LEHRER: And the other people do not -- in other words, the people -- the militia people -- not all of them, because we can't characterize all of them anyway -- but the people who feel that strongly within the militia, they do not buy the federal government's story, is that right?

MR. WILLIAMS: That's correct, they do not.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Reynolds, do you think -- do you think anything should be done about the militia? Is it something that is -- that should worry people, that laws should be passed and local authorities should move on it? What do you think?

MR. REYNOLDS: Well, if anybody moves, it should be the local authorities. I mean, I think the very worst thing anyone could do is have a federal crackdown which would play to the very worst fears of these groups, exactly what they've prepared for, and I think the results would be disastrous. Actually, it's very hard to know. It's a very diverse group. I'm a little disappointed in Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center, because I have great respect for them, and they've done a lot of excellent work, but I think that we need to be careful about guilt by association. It's not anymore fair to blame a lot of militia members who don't know anything about the Oklahoma City bombing than it is to blame the Sierra Club for the unabomber or Bill Clinton for the weather underground. And we've had a lot of that. We've blamed people from the Mideast. We've blamed talk show hosts. We've been throwing mud right and left, but the fact is we really don't know what's going on yet.

MR. LEHRER: Let me -- let's go back to Morris Dees on that. Morris Dees, your response.

MR. DEES: My response was I think I made it clear that the people sitting around that table in Missouri probably don't understand the hard core element that's in the Michigan militia, the Arizona militia that have been practicing at Kingman, Arizona, blowing up stuff. I don't think they understand that, and I'm not painting them with a broad brush. I think they may be a bunch of good folks sitting around the table there that probably ought to pick 'em a candidate.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Mr. Reynolds, are you saying there are no people in the militia movement that are a danger to society?

MR. REYNOLDS: Oh, of course not. Any group that large has people who are a danger to society. And, in fact, I agree with Mr. Dees. I had a piece in the Chicago Tribune a few months ago warning about the danger of armed militia revolt and recommending to militia members that they would do a lot better to pick a candidate and do political work than to talk about these apocalyptic scenarios. I mean, all you have to do is look at the left. The left got intrigued with the romance of revolution back in the 60's, and people on the right meanwhile went around registering voters and running candidates and, well, the Contract With America story you're going to run later will probably indicate which approach works better.

MR. LEHRER: Yeah. Mr. Aho, what's your view about this? What should be our level of concern, and what should be done about it, if anything?

PROFESSOR AHO: Well, I agree with Mike Williams that the people who are in the militia from all evidence represent a cross-section of Americans, at least Americans West of the Mississippi and in the deep South. And I think we could say that the vast majority of the average Americans, the vast majority of them are non-violent generally, but 1 to 2 percent of Americans are violent. And what that means is that if the militias are recruiting a cross-section of Americans, then approximately 1 to 2 percent of the people in the militia are, are violent as well. Now, 1 to 2 percent is a small percentage, but if you're talking about maybe thirty or forty thousand people, that's a small but sizeable number of dangerous individuals. So what -- I support some of the what I understand to be the anti-terrorist act, particularly to have the federal government in a surreptitious and relatively informal way monitor some of the groups that are suspected of being violent. Now, not all the militia groups are violent. That's a very important distinction to make. There's vast differences. The Montana militia is explicitly confrontational, but there's a group in Idaho called the -- it's headquartered in Idaho -- called the United States Militia, and that seems to be more of a constitutional study group. They have their workbooks that they fill out, and they have tests, and they have ranks that they can get on the basis of the scores that they get and so on and so forth. So you have to make a -- there's a lot of difference in these -- in these militia groups. It's true that the Arizona Rangers are -- have historical -- clear back, you know, a decade ago were implicated in, in violent activities, so that's a kind of group that the federal government probably wants to keep an eye on through informants and other kinds of devices.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Williams, would you support that? Do you think there are elements within these militias that should be put -- that somebody ought to keep an eye on?

MR. WILLIAMS: Yes, absolutely, there is no doubt in my mind about that, but I find that usually the case of the Nichols brothers up in Northern Michigan. They both attended the meeting of the Michigan militia and attempted to entice the members at the meeting to join their group which are tax protesters that are passing out tax fliers, and the members of the Michigan militia after having listened to them told them to take their fliers and get.

MR. LEHRER: So that -- that says what to you?

MR. WILLIAMS: It says to me that the -- the discipline problem vis-a-vis the members should be taken care of within the groups, themselves. Every one of the groups that I spoke to doing the research told me a single fact. They are defensive in nature, and they're not aggressive. They certainly are not naive enough to believe that they can take on the armed forces of the United States government and be successful in overthrowing it. That's absurd.

MR. LEHRER: Morris Dees, what do you think ought to be done about these people?

MR. DEES: I think that I'm going to testify tomorrow before the congressional committee. And my recommendation is not to come in, but the type things we had -- we used against the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War movement, that we probably have enough laws on the books now to deal with this. Those groups that have indicated that they would commit violence ought to be monitored but I think we ought to look closely at regulating militias -- pardon me -- we ought to look closely at outlawing militia groups that, in fact, are more than just study groups, that are groups that are training in military procedures with rank, with status, with guns, with the kinds of things that really make up an army, because in a democracy like ours you can't have a private army poised with AK- 47's to assault the FBI, the ATF. That's not allowed under our Constitution, and I don't think you can have that. In many states - - this man is incorrect about Texas -- we had a court that determined that the activities of Louis Beam in Texas violated Texas's law that had been on the books for many years. Certainly you can go in the woods in Texas and shoot your guns, and you can take the AK-47's and bust up a pine tree, do what you want to, but you can't have a command staff, you can't have training in weapons and things of that nature that amount to what basically is a military. We had military experts come in. We had the head of the Texas National Guard testify in our case. You can find the cases, the Vietnamese Fishermen's Association versus the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, and we got an injunction enjoining that military operation; it no longer exists. They had 2500 people.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Aho, briefly, what do you believe about Mr. Dees' proposal that these groups just be banned, that there shouldn't be militias or private armies?

MR. DEES: Well, you can't -- I don't -- I don't agree with it, because, okay, let's get rid of the word "militia," and substitute instead "Sons of Liberty."So you can substitute names. Instead of using the word "commander," and "captain," and "sergeant," you can use other kinds of, of designations. Every group has its leaders and its, its middle level managers, so to say, and its followers, and the same thing with the patriot groups. And so I -- I just -- I sort of disagree with what Morris Dees is saying on that.

MR. LEHRER: We have to leave it there, gentlemen. Thank you all four very much.

MR. MAC NEIL: Still ahead, the CIA hearings and the Contract With America in a Democrat's district. FOCUS - THE NEXT SPYMASTER?

MR. MAC NEIL: Next tonight, the confirmation hearings for CIA Director-Designate John Deutch. The Senate Intelligence Committee questioned the Clinton nominee on his plans to restructure the beleaguered agency in the wake of the Aldrich Ames spy case and revelations about the CIA link to the murder of an American in Guatemala. Here are some excerpts from today's hearing.

JOHN DEUTCH, CIA Director-Designate: If our democracy is to support intelligence activities, the people must be confident that our rules and our regulations and our laws will be respected. Accordingly, the intelligence community must scrupulously adhere to the rules established by the Executive and Legislative branch. I state unequivocally that if confirmed as director of Central Intelligence, I will insist on adherence to the rules, and I will hold every person responsible for his or her action and accountable for those actions, but consistent with the traditions of this democracy, I will resist premature conclusions about the conduct or motives of any person who works in the intelligence community. I consider my primary duty would be to provide objective, unvarnished assessments about issues involving foreign events to the President and other senior policy makers. With the exception of policy that bears on the intelligence community, the director of Central Intelligence should have no foreign policy making role. I stress this point because the President's decision to name me to his cabinet, if I am confirmed as director of Central Intelligence, has led to some discussion of the appropriate role of the director of Central Intelligence. I believe the President's reason for asking me to serve in the cabinet was to signal the importance he places on intelligence and the confidence he has in me. Neither he nor I intend for membership in the cabinet to indicate inappropriate involvement of the director of Central Intelligence in the policy-making process. However, if intelligence is to be heard, if intelligence is to be genuinely useful to the policy makers, it must be represented in the highest counsels of state when policy issues are deliberated.

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR, [R] Indiana: You are a strong person. You are likely to have ideas that are better informed than many who are sitting around the cabinet table. The temptation to take part in that policy making is likely to be a severe temptation and may be in the national good history will relate you did take place and you made the right judgment. But I am -- I am fearful of this, and that's why I want to underline it, as other Senators have, that in the case of the Iran-Contra, it did not work out well.

JOHN DEUTCH: Well, Senator, I'm aware of some of the history, not as closely as you are, that you mentioned, and I really agree with what you say. I hope that I've made it clear -- would like to underline it again -- I do not see my conduct as being one which either allows policy to influence the intelligence judgment, or which reaches to have intelligence carry out policy- making roles. I intend to hold myself to that standard, and I would expect to be held to that standard. Secondly, I believe it's very important to keep this committee fully and currently informed of all intelligence activities, good news and bad. If you all are going to give me the support that I believe the director of Central Intelligence needs for carrying out this job, there has to be that sense of trust, and I intend to work for it. The one difference between those times and today is there is an enormous morale problem in the intelligence community. I have never in my whole career seen individuals as disheartened, people who have given their whole lives to serving their country. They have -- they are under the perception that they are abused and that they are undervalued. And I think it is important on an occasion like that to look at a different way to show importance and value and I think that that was done, it was more of a symbolic issue than one which was looking at ways and questions of policy making. And I hope that I have reassured the many members of this committee that I know where the appropriate line is there.

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: We cannot discharge you -- you have served at the appointment of the President, but at the same time, what happens if the President tells you that he would prefer that you not share things with us, that essentially you are his appointee, and, in fact, a cabinet member and an adviser and that he would just leave that we not be informed?

JOHN DEUTCH: I can't imagine that happening, but if it did, I'd go happily back to Massachusetts.

SEN. RICHARD LUGAR: You would leave?

JOHN DEUTCH: Yes.

SEN. ROBERT KERREY, [D] Nebraska: I'm wondering, given the fact that you will have responsibility not just to provide our military with intelligence, which is no question first order of business to keep those men and women with the information that they need, so that they're safe and secure and are able to meet whatever enemy it is, real or imagined, we have been going up against, but you're also -- you also have the responsibility for providing a national - - national intelligence to the President, to the policy makers downtown, and to us up here on Congress, and I'm just wondering, sir, you must as well look at the world and say, you know, is it theater ballistic missile that endanger America's security, or is it's Ryder trucks packed with fertilizer and fuel?

JOHN DEUTCH: Senator, it's, of course, both, but I agree with you that -- and I think it's a view not only expressed by myself this morning and several others -- that the attention to terrorism is a -- a -- something which is not -- has not been receiving the attention it should, and as far as foreign terrorism goes, that is going to be a matter of high priority for me.

MR. MAC NEIL: The full Senate is expected to take up the Deutch nomination next week. FOCUS - THE CONTRACT BACK HOME

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight, how the Contract With America is playing outside Washington. The House of Representatives reconvenes next week, and members have spent the spring recess back in their districts, listening to constituents. Here is part two of our report on what they heard. Kwame Holman reports from Texas.

KWAME HOLMAN: Two weeks ago, freshman Democratic Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee made a familiar trek to greet some of her constituents in the 18th Congressional District in Houston, Texas.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE, [D] Texas: [talking to constituents] I told you that I would be back here; I sure did.

MR. HOLMAN: But after 100 days of Republican control in the House of Representatives, both the news that the 45-year-old former Houston City Council member brought and the feedback she got were downbeat. The prevailing view at the Hester House Senior Citizens Center was that much of what passed the House amounts to an attack on programs designed to help minorities and the poor.

BEVERLY BROWNLOW, Community Worker: We keep talking about cuts, but where are the dollars going? Are they going to be -- you know, in what way are they going to be allocated, because if they're not allocated back to that lower income group, that low to moderate income group, then five years from now, you're going to have another social problem that you're going to have to allocate those billions and billions of dollars from to correct, so my question is if, indeed, this is America, the land of milk and honey, where we're taking all the milk and half the honey from the poor?

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: The good news or the partial good news is that a lot of the legislation is yet to be considered by the United States Senate. We will be dealing with the recisions bill, and I will be better able to tell you the ultimate impact on some of those -- on some of those cuts that may be impacting you dealing with energy assistance, dealing with Section 8 housing. A lot of those programs are impacted by recision.

LATRICIA ROWEL, Community Worker: As a taxpayer, I still feel like I'm very helpless in this whole process, that a lot of people's needs are not going to be met, but as a taxpayer, there's got to be something else that we can do.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: Let me emphasize to you that only 37 percent of the voters in this nation voted in November 1994. So the fact that you're a little angry inspires you for '96.

MR. HOLMAN: Like most of Lee's 18th District constituents, these seniors are dyed-in-the-wood Democrats. The all-urban 18th crisscrosses Houston's inner core, from the bustling downtown of gleaming office towers, monuments to the oil and gas industry, to the dilapidated housing of the city's infamous 5th and 3rd Wards. The 18th is one of dozens of majority black districts established under the Voting Rights Act. Whites and Hispanics together make up less than half the population. It is the most heavily Democratic congressional district in Texas.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: [talking to students] I'm a United States Congresswoman, and that is -- anybody know -- the House of - -

STUDENTS IN UNISON: Representatives.

MR. HOLMAN: During her first days back home, Congresswoman Lee kept up a relentless campaign-style schedule of events designed to showcase targets of Republican budget-cutters.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: The agenda has been set by Republicans, and they have some ideas that I don't agree with: cutting school lunches and school breakfasts.

MR. HOLMAN: Lee says she credits Republicans for running a furious 100-day legislative race but regrets that traditional congressional events that would have brought Republican and Democratic freshmen together at the start of the session were cancelled this year.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: What happened is you came in divided, and the session proceeded with a great deal of divisiveness, which continues even today. Some people that excites, the whole idea of continuing the campaign of '94 into the legislative process. I think it does a disservice to the American people.

MR. HOLMAN: Cut out of the process of amending most Republican proposals in Washington, Lee says she'll fight against them at home. At the University of Houston, she helped stage a news conference to protest an unofficial Republican plan to increase interest payments of students who take out government-backed tuition loans. Local college administrators joined Lee in claiming the change would cost the nation's students 9 1/2 billion dollars over five years.

MELVIN PLUMMER, Texas Southern University: These students on a whole have a socioeconomic make-up that's lower to middle income. The affordability of the pursuit of a college degree to them is highly dependent on our ability to provide government-assisted loans, to provide the interest rates that are affordable.

MR. HOLMAN: Congresswoman Lee says Republican plans to downsize federal government can go too far.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: The obligations and burdens that fall upon the federal government are those that no one else will take.

MR. HOLMAN: At the Urban League Training Center in Lee's district, managers were making plans to employ their share of 125 young people in this year's federally-subsidized summer jobs program. That's 75 fewer than the 200 the League had planned because of cuts proposed in the House Republicans' Recisions Bill. League President Sylvia Brooks says she worries about the Republican proposal to send money for nearly all such assistance programs to the states in the form of block grants.

SYLVIA BROOKS, Houston Urban League: If you look at where at Texas ranks in terms of services and particularly human services, it's very low, and my understanding about the block grants is that that money is coming based on what we spent in the prior year. If Texas hasn't spent much, we aren't getting much.

MR. HOLMAN: 19-year-old Maria Rangel, who is in the computer training program, receives Aid to Families with Dependent Children to care for her two-year-old daughter. We asked her reaction to the Republican welfare reform plan passed by the House that allows states to cut off benefits to recipients who fail to comply with job training requirements.

MARIA RANGEL, AFDC Mother: I think if they didn't have, you know, any help for people like that, then, you know, you wonder, you know, what's this life going to be, you know? I think we all need help from somebody, you know. We can't always go on on our own.

RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: If you haven't bought those Easter dresses yet. Get on over there to Elizabetha's Dress Boutique. The phone number is 631-6416. Okay. We're going to be going on with Sheila Jackson-Lee.

MR. HOLMAN: During a call-in show at this Houston radio station, like nearly everywhere we found Congresswoman Lee, there were complaints about the initiatives taken by the Republican-controlled House of Representatives.

REV. SAM GILBERT, Mt. Sinai Baptist Church: [calling radio program] It looks like you're doing more for the rich and less for the poor, and the middle class.

MR. HOLMAN: That caller was Rev. Sam Gilbert, pastor of a church in Lee's district for the last 30 years.

REV. SAM GILBERT: I think it's a mean Congress that's there now, and they don't really care anything about people. They're not representing real America. I don't think it's so much the Republicans or the Democrats, because who can tell one from the other? You know, a good Democrat today can be a staunch Republican tomorrow. You don't really know where people are. I don't think it's so much that. I think it's the rich against the poor.

MR. HOLMAN: The drum beat of criticism from Democrats here continues. In the largely Hispanic Houston district represented by Democrat Gene Greene, Lee and local officials complained about an 8 percent reduction in community development funds passed by House Republicans.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON-LEE: Unbelievable. They restored some, but he said they're not really the kind that you need to have.

MR. HOLMAN: Still, all the budget fights until now will pale in comparison to the gargantuan struggle over the entire federal budget that begins when these members return to Washington next month. RECAP

MR. MAC NEIL: Again, the major story of this Wednesday, President Clinton proposed hiring a thousand additional federal agents to combat domestic terrorism. A prosecutor in the Oklahoma bombing case said suspect Timothy McVeigh told a friend that something big was going to happen three days before the blast. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.