The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Florida Drug War

[Tease]

JIM LEHRER [voice-over]: The Middle East and the Falklands are not the only battlefields. In South Florida, sophisticated military equipment has been used in a war on drugs. Tonight, with that war's commander, Vice President George Bush, a look at who is winning.

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LEHRER: Good evening. They've been killing people robbing, and otherwise abusing them at a higher rate in South Florida than anywhere else in the country. Miami specifically has the highest murder rate in the nation according to the latest available figures, and it ranks number one on the FBI's list of cities with the worst overall crime problem. Two other South Florida cities, West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale, are also in the top 10. There are a variety of reasons for South Florida's lawlessness, but foremost among them is drugs. Government officials estimate 75% of all illegal drugs coming into the United States enter through South Florida, a $70-billion illicit industry that has triggered the unprecedented level of murder and other mayhem. In January, the Reagan administration answered a call for help with the formation of a South Florida Crime Task Force. Under the direction of Vice President Bush, the federal government mounted a law enforcement effort that was also unprecedented. It has resulted in some drug busts of major proportions -- two tons of cocaine seized at the Miami airport in March, 1 1/4 million tons of marijuana picked off ships by the Coast Guard, and, just last Friday, the FBI in Miami nabbed $65 million worth of the drug methaqualone. But has it all had a real impact on the nation's drug problem and on South Florida's crime problem? That's what we ask tonight. Robert MacNeil is off; Charlayne Hunter-Gault is in New York. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Jim, they jokingly refer to themselves as the "Bush League," but there's nothing bush league about the makeup of the South Florida Crime Task Force. Indeed, the task force is a Cabinet-level group consisting of the secretaries of State, Defense, Treasury, Health and Human Services, Transportation, the Attorney General, and Presidential Counselor Ed Meese. On the ground in Florida, that unprecedented law enforcement effort consists of some 350 agents from a variety of agencies, including the FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Army, the Navy, the Coast Guard, Customs, as well as local law enforcement officials. The task force has taken the highly unusual step of involving the military, the Navy with its Hawkeye surveillance planes, Army Cobra helicopters, and an airship called the Seek Skyhook, nicknamed "Fat Albert." Among the goals of the task force are stopping the drug trafficking, controlling the illegal alien problem, and cracking down on violent crime. For more details on its mission and its record to date, we go back to Washington and the man in charge. Jim?

LEHRER: That man is the Vice President, George Bush. He's with us tonight for a separate interview from the Old Executive Office Building next to the White House. Mr. Vice President, welcome, sir.

Vice President GEORGE BUSH: Jim, nice to be with you, sir.

LEHRER: What is your own assessment of how effective your task force has been thus far?

Vice Pres. BUSH: Well, I think we've done a good job, and I think that we have reduced the flow of drugs from a torrent to a trickle. Now, I'm not sitting here telling you that we've solved the problem, but through a coordinated effort -- agencies working together instead of in conflict, a massive effort -- I believe it's fair to say that we have slowed the inflow of drugs into Miami; 80% of the cocaine and marijuana coming into this country, coming in through Miami -- slowed it to a trickle. But we haven't solved the problem at its source. We're working hard on that. We haven't solved the white collar crime aspects. We're working on that -- banks that launder money, for example. We're just beginning, but we've made a very, very good start and we've given hope where there was despair.

LEHRER: Some have suggested, Mr. Vice President, that while you have stopped it comming into Miami, that the smugglers have merely gone to other ports of entry in the United States.What's the record look like to you on that?

Vice Pres. BUSH: Well, that is not the evidence that all these federal agencies who are on the alert for that kind of movement are coming up with. That isn't to say that some haven't been diverted. I'm sure it has. But the flow -- the massive torrent I'm talking about hasn't just gone, instead of going into Miami, to other places. That there are some flights being diverted, we know that. In fact, through a great cooperative intelligence effort, we've been able to intercept some in faraway places. But I don't think it's right to say that that 80% is still flowing in but flowing into different ports. In fact, the evidence does not support that.

LEHRER: What kind of dent, if any, have you made in the crime rate in South Florida -- the violent crimes, murders, things like that?

Vice Pres. BUSH: Well, I think there has been some progress. Again, it's hard to quantify that kind of thing. The violent crime -- you're going to have people on this program who are experts in that, and I'll let them talk: the Miami Citizens Against Crime, a civic group, incidentally, doing a fantastic job there, can give you some figures and give you a much better grass roots feel than I. We're told we've helped on that, but again, I can't give you a statistic.

LEHRER: How long is this task force prepared to stay in action in Florida?

Vice Pres. BUSH: Well, I'm a great believer in task forces going out of business, and always been a little worried about those that stay in business. I've been involved with a couple of others -- still am, as a matter of fact -- but I think it's hard to say. We recognize that our job, really, is just beginning because some aspects of it -- the flow of drugs right now is down to a trickle, but there are a lot of problems -- white collar laundering of this insidious filthy money that's being made on drugs. We haven't beaten that problem by a long shot. So we're going to stay in business as long as we feel we are accomplishing something.The task force itself could go out of business, and we could still have a great cooperative effort in Miami, but we're not prepared to go out of business yet.

LEHRER: How much is this effort costing, Mr. Vice President?

Vice Pres. BUSH: I can't give you an exact figure, because a lot of these resources are resources that were on the federal payroll that are being brought to bear on the problem. But it's a lot of money. We're talking about a lot of money to have a cooperative effort between the Navy, the Coast Guard, the Air Force, plus these civilian agencies. So we're talking about big dollars, but it's worth it. If we can offer the city of Miami some hope, and say to kids' families, "Look, your kids are not going to be subjected to this insidious inflow of drugs," it's worth it. Whatever the price tag. But I'm not ducking your question, Jim; I just don't know what the number is.

LEHRER: My question was leading up to this question: is it new money? Is it new resources that have been put into the general anti-drug, anti-crime effort, or has it been a diversion of, say, agents and other resources that, say, were at work in New in New York City or at work in other parts of the country --

Vice Pres. BUSH: A combination.

LEHRER: -- and have just been shifted to Miami?

Vice Pres. BUSH: It's a combination with a lot of emphasis on shifting. Let me give you one example. There are some federal judges -- and this thing is -- we're getting great cooperation from the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, Justice Burger, the Chief. He has gone out to judges and said, "Look.We've got a backlog on cases. Can you help us?" Now, as they go -- and their expenses are paid in Miami as opposed to their living at home in Boston, for example, and there is some additional expense money for the U.S. government. But those judges are just going the extra mile, doing the extra work. It's both. It's both some new appropriation, but also a reassignment of a lot of existing resources.

LEHRER: Mr. Vice President, some have suggested, as I'm sure you're aware, that you're going about this thing the wrong way, that the real problem is to reduce demand, not supply; that, if the demand is there is this country, that there will always be a supply. What are your thoughts about that?

Vice Pres. BUSH: Well, I think through educational programs we can do more, and I think there are some fine volunteer educational programs going on. Mrs. Reagan, keenly interested in this facet, this side of the program. The task force isn't charged with that, but I would agree, there is an education -- we went through a period in this country where we were almost -- some in the federal government were, you know, kind of condoning the use of these narcotics. And we went through a period of, kind of, "Well, you have to understand. Vietnam was so traumatic that you have to understand when these nice kids want to be out there on cocaine." We still condone the use of cocaine. It's kind of an elite, in thing to do in some areas. Kind of giggle about it, laugh about it; sell expensive, silver paraphernalia about it. Now, we look at it very differently. We think it's a sickness that infects and weakens society. So you have an attitudinal change on this problem that's brought about by the President. But clearly that attitudinal change can affect demand, and it should.Our foreign policy is geared up and energized to do something about, not the demand side, but about the source. And we're working very cooperatively with the head of -- President Turbay in Colombia, for example. So it's across the board. It's demand, it's supply, it's doing everything we can. And we get some shots -- we take a few cheap shots in the political arena, but it's worth it because I think you will find as you talk to these people that, some begrudgingly, others wnthusiastically, [they] will say we're making a contribution. We're making life a little better where there's been no hope.

LEHRER: Finally, for those folks in Miami listening to this program tonight, are there any plans to pull that federal task force of yours out of there any time soon?

Vice Pres. BUSH: No. There are none. In fact, we are soliciting from the community and getting fantastic support. You know, the great thing about it, it goes right across political lines, goes across philosophical -- liberal, conservative -- particularly in Miami itself. And I have been so inspired by the citizens, by the guy on the block down there that's saying, "We want to work with you. We want to help. We want to give you advice. We want to lend our volunteer efforts." Jim, there's a great lesson in this now for the whole country. And I'm not sitting here arrogantly saying we've done it all, but we sure have made a beginning, and it's great work.I feel very inspired by the cooperation we've gotten.

LEHRER: Mr. Vice President, thank you so much for being with us tonight, and good night.

Vice Pres. BUSH: Thanks for this opportunity.

LEHRER: Thank you. Charlayne?

HUNTER-GAULT: Now to the center of all this attention, South Florida, and two different perspectives on how the task force is dealing with the problem. First, we will hear from the commander of the Organized Crime Division of the Broward County Sheriff's office. He is Nicholas Navarro, a 24-year law enforcement veteran and former federal narcotics agent. Mr. Navarro, what do you think of this approach we've just heard described by the Vice President to the drug problems in Miami?

NICHOLAS NAVARRO: Charlayne, I think the best news I just heard is the Vice President say that the task force might be staying down here for a longer period of time than we all thought it would be. I feel there's a flicker of light at the end of the tunnel. We need a very concerted effort in order to eradicate this tremendous problem that has been affecting us for so many, many years. I feel extremely strong against the narcotics situation --

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, were you concerned, sir, excuse me -- were you concerned that the task force wasn't going to stay?

Mr. NAVARRO: That was one of any main concerns, yes, ma'am. We have heard that, and that was the reason that I said that that was such good news.

HUNTER-GAULT: Right. Well, up 'til now, what impact do you think the task force has had on the drug problem, specifically, and on the crime problem in general?

Mr. NAVARRO: Well, I think that in a way they have created a real fear in certain elements down here. We hear about some elements shifting their operations to some other areas of the country. We hear about larger seizures of cocaine being made in California. We hear about larger seizures of other drugs being made in states like Louisiana, etc. We also hear about a shift of movements at the coast; however, we still hear that a lot of it is coming in. I don't think that it has disappeared yet. No one has waved the magic wand that is going to make it disappear yet.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, two things here. The Vice President just said that based on his information the flow of drugs into Miami had slowed down to a trickle, that indeed 80% of the drug traffic had been curtailed. Your evidence is otherwise?

Mr. NAVARRO: Well, I can't talk about percentages. We never knew really how much was coming in here, and I cannot give you a true percentage of it. However, we still find my agents are making multi-kilo cases of cocaine out there, and we find the marijuana availability by tonnage yet. So I can't say that it has disappeared, and I don't know how much has been curtailed.

HUNTER-GAULT: But your sense is that it has not slowed down to a trickle?

Mr. NAVARRO: I don't believe that a trickle is only coming in here, no, ma'am. I think there is more than that.

HUNTER-GAULT: The other thing the Vice President said was that there was no evidence to suggest that the flow of drugs had in any substantial way shifted to other parts of the country. You just said that you hear it has gone a lot of different places. Do you have any evidence to support that?

Mr. NAVARRO: Yes, ma'am. We've been reading it in the newspapers. I just saw a couple of days ago photographs of some law enforcement people in California, in Los Angeles, explain a large seizure of cocaine, which they say was the largest they had ever made in there, which again tends to show me that some of the problem has shifted to other areas in the country. It is a problem of national magnitude and not a problem only of South Florida.

HUNTER-GAULT: Are you one of those who feels there is too much emphasis on the supply side with this task force approach, and not enough on the demand side?

Mr. NAVARRO: Well, the demand has also to be looked at.We really don't have any definite programs to try to create a feeling of danger in our youth, but drugs are really dangerous for them to use. I haven't seen anything in a very emphatic way being done. Therefore, I would like to see more of that. As a law enforcement officer I feel that the dedication of the men that are devoted to the curtailing of this ever-increasing problem is excellent; however, I'd like to see more education and more rehabilitation throughout the country.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right, Mr. Navarro, we'll come back. We get the other perspective now from one of the business leaders whose December visit to the White House led to the formation of the task force. He is Armando Codina, an international financier. His companions on the Washington trip included the president of Eastern Airlines and the board chairman of Knight-Ridder newspapers. All of them are members of the Miami Citizens Against Crime. Mr. Codina, what exactly did you hope the task force would do?

ARMANDO CODINA: Well, we were hoping to get the attention of the federal government to the national tragedy that we had with the drug, the crime and the refugee problems in Miami. We were hoping to get some attention. We felt that we needed to address the problem at a federal, state and local level, whith Miami Citizens Against Crime has done, and we were hoping to get some action out of the executive branch that some things that could in fact be done by executive action, and have to be done, could be brought to bear on the problem that Miami was experiencing.

HUNTER-GAULT: All right. You heard the Vice President a few moments ago defer to you on this: let me askyou, have been successful in reducing crime in Miami?

Mr. CODINA: Charlayne, I'm a private citizen involved the Miami Citizens Against Crime, so I certainly can't offer any statistics to you, but let me say this. There was an article in the Miami Herald on May 18th where is shows that crime in Miami in the last three months -- violent crime -- is down significantly. The perception of the law enforcement people in Dade County is that the task force has had an impact. And from a citizen's standpoint, I can tell you that the perception in Miami is that we are getting some help, that we have some hope, that we were at one time feeling that we were waging a losing battle, and we feel that we're going to turn it around and that Miami is going to be a comeback city and turn this problem around and be part of the solution rather than part of the drug problem nationwide.

HUNTER-GAULT: You heard some of the statistics that Jim gave at the beginning of the program, and there has been tremendous discussion about the murders and things like that. Do you see actually that kind of thing, the murders and the robberies and the rapes and all of the things that have been associated with this drug traffic, is there a perceptible difference in these things?

Mr. CODINA: I think that there has been. Certainly a perception from the community standpoint. You know, we've had several machine-gunnings in Miami in the past; since the announcement of the task force, we haven't had any such incident. And again, the statistics that we at Miami Citizens Against Crime have reviewed, and the articles that have appeared in the Miami Herald recently show that violent crime in Miami is in effect down.

HUNTER-GAULT: Are you at all concerned that once the task force leaves -- the Vice President said they had no intention of leaving any time soon, but once they do leave, whenever that is, that the problem will just recur, will rear its ugly head again?

Mr. CODINA: Well, I hope that this is a temporary effort only to the extent that it is a temporary problem, but we have been assured and we feel that we have the commitment that the task force is going to be brought to bear as long as there is a problem in Miami.

HUNTER-GAULT: Do you have any idea, based on the kind of success they've had to date and the depth of the problem, how long it will be before you can say the problem is over and the task force can go home?

Mr. CODINA: Well, Charlayne, I think, you know, this is a difficult battle. You know, it is a -- we're talking about an economy of billions of dollars, and I certainly don't think this problem is over by a long shot. But I think we have had a tremendous impact, and I hope that the task force will be temporary, as I said, only to the extent that the problem is temporary.But let me say that even when the task force does go back, the bulk of it, we have had some additional personnel that have been added to Miami as a byproduct of this task force which in fact have been made as permanent positions in the DDA, etc. So we feel that overall we're in a much better position now than we were before.

HUNTER-GAULT: I see. Thank you. Jim?

LEHRER: There have been questions raised in Congress about the South Florida effort, one of the key questioners being Congressman Leo Zeferetti, Democrat of New York, chairman of the House Select Committee on Narcotics Abuse and Control.Congressman, how do you read the evidence as far as the effectiveness of this program in South Florida?

Rep. LEO ZEFERETTI: Well, first let me say that I want to commend the task force for their operation and for the job that they've done, even though they've had limited resources to do that particular job. But my concern goes way beyond that.My concern with the administration's policy is that they're reacting to a crisis situation. And when they do it that way, by taking patrol officers and inspectors, taking Coast Guard personnel and Coast Guard cutters and taking DEA personnel and FBI and shifting them to one part of the country, they leave us vulnerable in pretty much all the other areas of the country.

LEHRER: Has that in fact happened, Congressman?

Rep. ZEFERETTI: Absolutely. And beyond that, I'm also afraid that we may have to ask the task force to come into the New York area. We're talking about marijuana and cocaine, which is a South Florida kind of problem. But if you look at the heroin problem, you can talk about New York and you can talk between 50 and 60 percent of the heroin that comes into the United States comes in through that Eastern seaboard. Now, we can say to you that that also requires a crisis situation kind of reaction. You can talk about people being gunned on the street; you can talk about organized crime; and you can talk about every entrepreneur and his brother that's out there to make a fast buck is out there doing just that. What we're concerned with on that select committee that I have the privilege of chairing is that even as we go forward we have not created a strategy of effort, a strategy for priority to give us the kind of dollars, to give us the kind of tools in order for those agencies that have the responsibility and the jurisdiction to impact on this drug problem and that kind of effort to come forth from the administration.

LEHRER: You held some hearings recently, I understand, in New York City to evaluate specifically what arming the South Florida task force has done to the crime situation -- to the anti-drug situation in New York City. What did you find out?

Rep. ZEFERETTI: Well, let me give you just one small example.We'll take the Coast Guard for argument's sake. We have six Coast Guard cutters on the Eastern shore, and they have the responsibility not only to go after drug traffickers, but they also have the responsibility of taking care of safety and rescue and inspection and immigration and all of that. They took three cutters and sent them down to South Florida.We only had six. There's two in maintenance right how, so that leaves us with one cutter on the entire Eastern shore to take care of all of that responsibility. Well, I say that that's the wrong way to approach this thing, and I say, too, that at a time when we're talking budget -- and this is not political, because what I'm talking about -- I have a bipartisan committee, and we're all sort of looking at it in the same fashion and the same way. We're looking for those kinds of dollars that are going to have that impact on DEA, on Coast Guard, on the kinds of offices that have the responsibility. And in this very budget that we're arguing over right now every one of those agencies have been cut. Every one of those agencies will be distressed in such a way that if in fact we go forward and we continue to react on a crisis situation basis, we're going to find ourselves even with less equipment, less personnel than what we had before. We have the privilege of today, for the first time, using some of the armed services for that activity --

LEHRER: You're in favor of that, right?

Rep. ZEFERETTI: I am, but not to act as policemen. I want the equipment, I want the intelligence, I want the communication to be an auxiliary for those agencies that have the responsibility. I'm not sure what we're looking for, really.

LEHRER: It seems that what you're saying is that the task force approach is not going to solve the drug problem in this counrty.

Rep. ZEFERETTI: Well, they've done a good job down in Florida. They've had an impact on the crime situation there, and we commend that kind of activity, but if that's what it takes to create that kind of an impact, then we need it in South Florida, we need it in New York, we need it on the West Coast, we need it on the Gulf Coast, we need that kind of priority on an ongoing basis, with a kind of a strategy between the executive branch and the legislative branch that could produce that kind of effort.

LEHRER: Thank you, Congressman. Charlayne?

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Codina, what do you say to, first, the fact that the attention is being focused there in Miami and it's causing a vulnerability in other areas?

Mr. CODINA: Well, I can certainly identify with what the Congressman has to say in terms of getting some help in his area, but I find his comments to be rather short-sighted. Eighty percent of the cocaine and the marijuana that comes into this country comes into the South Florida area. This is not a Miami problem; this is not a South Florida problem. This is a national tragedy. And to the extent that we get some help down here I think that the whole nation is being helped.

HUNTER-GAULT: Excuse me. Does that make you feel any better or shed a different light on it for you, Congressman?

Rep. ZEFERETTI: [audio cut off] What do we do when that task force leaves? What do we do as an operation in place that can combat and have an impact on that 80% that's coming in? It may have stopped for the time being, but let me say that, as you indicated earlier, there's enough money in this that they'll find other ways of coming in, and those other ways might be in other parts of Florida. So unless we have an ongoing force to combat that, it's not short-sighted as to say let's bring this up to standard; let's bring this up to par so that we can combat that kind of effort.

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Codina, do you want to respond briefly?

Mr. CODINA: Yes, I think that there's been no evidence that there has been a displacement on drugs, and we feel that the impact of the drugs coming into South Florida has in fact slowed down tremendously. If drugs are in fact displaced, I think, Congressman, when you have a war you send your troops where the battle is taking place, and that battle place right now is Miami. Further, I feel that the displacement would only help us to alleviate the problem. Miami, because of this gift of geography that we have, is the shortest route for these drug dealers to bring in the cocaine and the marijuana. If in fact they need to go around, they will need faster, they will need boats with a longer range, planes with a longer range. They will be more exposed, and I think we would have a greater likelihood of winning the battle, but I think that resources have to be placed today where they are being placed, and South Florida is grateful to the administration for the effort that they have put behind this task force. And we think it is --

HUNTER-GAULT: Let me just -- excuse me, let me just get a brief comment from Mr. Navarro before we have to say good night on that.

Mr. NAVARRO: In a multi-billion industry, a few more miles and a few more gallons of fuel are not going to make any difference. The problem is larger than what we think.

HUNTER-GAULT: I'm sorry. We have to leave it there. Jim?

LEHRER: Yes, gentlemen in Miami, thank you very much; Congressman, thank you. And good night, Charlayne.

HUNTER-GAULT: Good night, Jim.

LEHRER: And we'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.