The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Interview with John Vorster

ROBERT MacNEIL: Pretoria -- the capital of the Republic of South Africa, and the seat of its government. That government and the four million whites it rules find themselves increasingly isolated by the world community for pursuing an official policy of apartheid, or separation of white and black races. But South Africa`s Prime Minister, John Vorster, has just been given a fresh electoral mandate for that policy. Tonight, from his office in Pretoria, a conversation with John Vorster.

Good evening. The second of the autonomous states being created by the white South African government as homelands for blacks achieved independence today. But like the Transkei a year ago, the new state of Bophuthatsvana was not welcomed by the world community. U.N. Secretary General Kurt Waldheim said he "strongly deplores the establishment of the new homeland" in pursuance of what he called the "discredited policies of apartheid," or racial separation.

Those policies have come under mounting criticism in recent months, particularly since the revelations about Stephen Biko, a black- consciousness leader who died in prison. On Friday a magistrate found Biko had died from brain injuries, but cleared police of any criminal responsibility. The Biko case and a recent crackdown on political dissent have put white South Africa under mounting pressure to modify apartheid.

Jim?

JIM LEHRER: The man in charge of that policy and of South Africa`s destiny is Prime Minister John Vorster. His power was solidified in the country`s elections last Wednesday as his Nationalist Party was returned to office by an overwhelming majority vote of the white electorate. Mr. Vorster talked to us via satellite this morning from his Pretoria office.

Mr. Prime Minister, welcome. Sir, the U.S. State Department says that Stephen Biko was the "victim of flagrant neglect and official irresponsibility." Are they right, sir?

JOHN VORSTER: All I can say to you is that we`ve had an inquest, all witnesses who had anything to do with it -- policemen, doctors -- each and every one were called, they were severely criticized for days and weeks on end; and the trained magistrate has given his verdict. So I don`t know what you want me to add to all that.

MacNEIL: Mr. Vorster, the State Department also added in its statement, which is unusual coming from the American State Department -- the official spokesman said, "Mr. Biko`s death clearly resulted from a system which permits gross mistreatment and violation of the most basic human rights." Do you have any comment on that, sir?

VORSTER: Well, all I can say is, in that case then the State Department knows more about my country than I ever heard of. All I can again say is that in very few countries in the world cross-examination would have been allowed that was allowed in this case; and as I`ve said, each and every witness was called. And what is more, I don`t want to comment any further on it because it has been said that certain civil actions will arise out of the matter, and it is also of course possible for the attorney general to decide what he will do further in this regard. So it will very definitely not be proper for me to comment, and I think it`s highly improper for the State Department, for that matter, to comment as they did if in fact they so commented.

LEHRER: Let me ask one further question on this. As you probably know, this Biko case has caused quite a stir here in the United States, not only within the State Department, but it`s been a big story here and a lot of questions have been asked. For instance, why was Biko kept naked and handcuffed? People want to know why. Can you shed any light on that?

VORSTER: All these matters were cleared up fully in court. I wasn`t present at the court and consequently you cannot ask me at this stage to comment thereon.

MacNEIL: Well, Prime Minister, without commenting on what the court said or the verdict, can your security police take this verdict as an official sort of sanction or blessing on their actions and procedures and their methods?

VORSTER: No, that is what you say; that is not what the minister says, that is not what the department says, and that is certainly not what they themselves say. I am sorry that out of this very, very unfortunate incident so much propaganda was made even before the hearing took place.

LEHRER: Well, for instance, carrying it the next step, which does not relate to the court`s verdict itself, let me ask you this: why were Biko`s brother and cousin arrested a few hours before the verdict was delivered?

VORSTER: Not being the minister of justice, I certainly wouldn`t know why it happened, and not being the policeman in charge, I wouldn`t know either, for that matter. I`m sorry I can`t give you a reply to that question.

MacNEIL: Yes. Well, Prime Minister, is it common practice in South Africa to detain people without charge and without trial?

VORSTER: It is, according to our law under certain circumstances, possible to detain people. This law has been on the statute book for decades. I myself acted in terms of that law when I was minister of justice from 1961 to 1966, and it is not only in South Africa that such a law exists; it exists in Europe and in other countries that I`m aware of.

MacNEIL: I see. Are you personally satisfied with the handling of the Biko affair? Do you believe that justice was done in this case and are you content that the record should stand before world public opinion as sort of representative of South African justice?

VORSTER: In view of the fact, as I have told you already, that the matter is not disposed of yet, that notice was given of certain other court actions, it is not appropriate for me, as I have said to you already, to comment on this question.

LEHRER: All right. Mr. Prime Minister, let`s move on to another area. Your ambassador in Washington, Donald Sole, said last month that after the election in South Africa "we shall move fairly rapidly in the direction of changes," particularly in the area of race relations. Now, that last part is a paraphrase. What kind of changes do you and your government have in mind in this particular area?

VORSTER: My government has effected more changes in South Africa than all previous governments combined. It is a continuous process, and as time goes on certain changes will be made. Unfortunately, if and when we make the changes, the only comment we get from certain quarters is that it`s cosmetic only. But we will do justice to each and every population group in South Africa, and we will go on to make the necessary changes.

MacNEIL: Your ambassador, Prime Minister, also said, "We are not trying to preserve some segregated way of life. We shall move in the direction of important changes." Now, what did he mean by that?

VORSTER: Now, not having seen the speech of the ambassador that you are referring to and not knowing that he used the words as you are using them to mean now...

MacNEIL : Yes?

VORSTER: ... I`m afraid I cannot comment any further beyond what I`ve already told you.

MacNEIL: Well, if he was quoted correctly, was he right in saying, "We are not trying to preserve some segregated way of life. We shall move

VORSTER: No, we look upon South Africa not as a multiracial country but as a multinational country. And within that framework we have effected change, we are effecting change, and we will continue to effect change.

LEHRER: Will you continue also to deny the vote to blacks who live in the urban cities of South Africa?

VORSTER: The blacks in the urban cities are not denied the votes; they are registered, they can be registered, they do in fact vote, and some of the so-called urban blacks serve in the cabinets of the black states and some of them are chief ministers of black states. So to talk as some people want to talk, of the voiceless masses in South Africa, is just not correct.

LEHRER: Of course they did not vote in this election last week, did they?

VORSTER: No, because they have their own elections and they have their own parliaments, they have their own cabinets, they have their own budgets and they pass their own laws.

LEHRER: But they do not vote and do not participate, of course, in your government there in South Africa`s...

VORSTER: Same as I and other whites don`t participate in their elections.

MacNEIL: I see, sir. Is there going to be -- you`ve talked of the changes that your government has been making -- is there going to be any modification of the system of apartheid, the system which keeps the white and black races apart in these separate nations within a nation that you have just referred to? Is there going to be any modification of that?

VORSTER: No, it`s not a question of nations within a nation; the question is that we have eight distinct black nations with different languages, different cultures, different traditions. They have their own land and they govern themselves, as I`ve already tried to explain to you. So the situation is not as you put the question to me.

MacNEIL: Right, well, given that situation as you more correctly describe it, is there going to be any modification in the future, of that system?

VORSTER: No, that system will continue because two of the nations have already become independent. The Transkei nation became independent 26 October last year; the Tswana nation became independent this very day that you`re talking to me. And so one after the other the black nations will become independent, govern themselves and be as independent as any other country in Europe or America, or in Africa for that matter.

LEHRER: Of course, Mr. Prime Minister, as you know, the rest of the world - - the U.N. and, as represented by the U.N., the rest of the world -does not recognize Transkei and these other countries as independent nations, and that`s where that word "cosmetic" comes in that you mentioned earlier.

VORSTER: Well, all I can tell you about the Transkei -- land-wise, population-wise, per capita income-wise, looking at it from each and every angle -- they are more viable, they have a better ordered government than fifty, sixty countries who are members of United Nations. So if United Nations do not want to recognize the Transkei, that is their business. But then they mustn`t say that there aren`t double standards.

MacNEIL: Prime Minister, many people in the West believe, recognizing that you Afrikaners have a unique historical claim to where you are -- recognizing that, they nevertheless believe that if you, the white minority, do not move to accommodate the black majority within your power structure, that a major war is inevitable on the southern tip of the African continent. Do you believe that?

VORSTER: Firstly, you are quite wrong when you talk about a white minority. The blacks live on that land which they occupied when they initially came from central Africa. My forebears came here in 1652. It was 152 years later when they first met the black man. The land we occupy is the land that belongs to us, it`s the land we built up, it`s land which was vacant and which we settled. And I don`t see how under those circumstances you can talk about the minority whites living in South Africa.

LEHRER: But Mr. Prime Minister, that aside, you must be aware of the fact that people are saying that there could be a racial war...

VORSTER: Well, I don`t care what people are saying at all, I`m giving you the facts.

LEHRER: Yes, sir, but moving beyond that to Robin`s question, which was those who are saying that a war may be inevitable in South Africa if this racial situation is not resolved -- how do you feel about that?

VORSTER: I don`t think that that will happen at all, for the simple reason that if you read our history you will find that it was said way back before 1920. It was again said in the 1920`s, in the 1930`s, et cetera, et cetera.

MacNEIL: But that was before, Mr. Prime Minister, the whole black nationalism swept through Africa after the Second World War and has now engulfed all of Africa except Rhodesia, where it is rapidly appearing to make progress, and the Republic of South Africa. Do you not feel the circumstances are very different than they were in the 1920`s and that this tide of black nationalism is inevitably going to enfulf you as well?

VORSTER: No, it will certainly not engulf us because we are not against nationalism. In fact, we are fostering nationalism amongst the black people, as I`ve tried to explain to you. We have given them self government, we are leading them on the road of self-determination to become independent and to elect their own presidents and to become republics, as they have become and will become. So therefore I cannot see that there is any force in your argument at all.

LEHRER: Mr. Prime Minister, do you care what the rest of the world thinks about South Africa?

VORSTER: Naturally I care what each and every man who knows something about my country says. But if I must care about what uninformed people have to say about my country, then I will have my work cut out just to keep abreast of what they are saying.

LEHRER: As you know, there have been all kinds of international comments and all that sort of thing, not only from the United States but from other countries as well -- the British House of Commons, others have said things; Kurt Waldheim in reaction to the Biko case...

VORSTER: Yes, people who know least about the situation, they normally talk most about it.

LEHRER: Of course, there have even been negative comments from the Rand Daily Mail and your own newspapers right in South Africa. But...

VORSTER: Yes, but please -- with all due respect to the Rand Dail Mail, the Rand Daily Mail doesn`t speak on behalf of South Africa an isn`t SoutFA rica.

LEHRER: I see.

MacNEIL: Mr. Prime Minister, if you don`t particularly care what -as you call it -- uninformed opinion feels about you, why does your government finance such a large public relations campaign in this country, spending last year, I`ve seen the figure of two million dollars?

VORSTER: No, because we owe it to our country to give the true facts to the world outside for those who care to want the true facts and to listen to the true facts. Same as you owe it to your country and each and every other man owes it to his own country.

MacNEIL: Yes. Are you going to in fact step up that campaign, as I`ve seen reported, spending more money in this country?

VORSTER: If it`s necessary to do so, yes, we will do so.

MacNEIL: Do you feel it is necessary?

VORSTER: From time to time it will be necessary, and perhaps now is such a time.

LEHRER: Do you expect the United States government to put any further economic pressure on you and your government?

VORSTER: I`m sorry, will you just repeat that question? I didn`t get it.

LEHRER: Yes. Do you expect the United States to put any further economic pressure on South Africa?

VORSTER: Naturally I cannot say what they are going to do and what they are not going to do. All that I do know is that I don`t think the businessmen will like it because they`ve been investing in South Africa for many, many years and they`ve done good business, and they know that South Africa is a country which honors its commitments and which pays its debts. And therefore, businessmen not only from the United States but from all over the world want to do business with us. We`ve never asked for soft loans, we`ve never asked for handouts, and we are the only country in the world, it might interest you, according to your own figures, who don`t owe United States a dollar. We`ve paid our lend-lease way back thirty years ago.

MacNEIL: Do you see an inconsistency, Prime Minister, between the posture of the United States government and the behavior of American business in South Africa?

VORSTER: No, as far as American businessmen are concerned we`ve got on very well with them in the past, and I see no reason why we will not get on very well in the future.

LEHRER: From an official government standpoint, how do you, sitting in South Africa today, perceive what the United States position is toward South Africa?

VORSTER: It is very difficult to reply to that question, because we find so many ad hoc statements, statements that are made from day to day, that it is very difficult to say exactly what the policy of the government at the moment is.

LEHRER: Well, give me your thinking about it. I mean, these statements, as you say, are diverse, but you must have a feel for how you and your government are regarded in Washington. What`s your thinking about it -- how do you feel about it?

VORSTER: No, all that we know at the moment is that it is expected of us, and it was said by Mr. Mondale and later by Mr. Young and others, that we must adopt a system of one man, one vote, that we must accept black majority rule in South Africa; and that of course is not the policy of my government, and my government will not be forced by anybody to adopt such a policy.

LEHRER: I was just going to say, forced or not forced, do you see the day when South Africa will adopt a one man, one vote, black majority rule?

VORSTER: At the moment we have one man, one vote. All Tswanas vote for the Tswana government, all Zulus for the Zulu government, all Xoshas for the Xosha government, all whites for the white government.

So there is in fact one man, one vote, each voting for its own parliament and for its own people.

LEHRER: If that`s your position, I don`t understand why you would then object to the Vice President of the United States saying you ought to do that.

VORSTER: No, but you want us to scrap all these various parliaments and to throw everybody in the same parliament, and to put everybody on the same voters` list and to vote for one parliament and one parliament only.

LEHRER: And you`re not going to do that, is that right, sir?

VORSTER: No, that is not the policy of my government.

LEHRER: And it`s not going to happen.

VORSTER: That has been endorsed overwhelmingly by the electorate on the 30th of November.

LEHRER: The white electorate of South Africa.

VORSTER: Yes.

MacNEIL: Prime Minister, the American magazine, The New Republic, a journal of liberal opinion here, said in a recent editorial explaining why other nations appeared to be picking on South Africa -- if I could just read you a line that they said: You in South Africa are more severely isolated because you are the only country, this magazine said, which makes the assumptions you do -- the only country in the world which makes the assumptions you do about race. And then it said only the South African regime defines our common humanity in terms which the rest of the human race now rejects. Do you have a comment on that observation?

VORSTER: No, I don`t think that is correct at all.

MacNEIL: I`m sorry, sir, I didn`t catch that. Would you repeat that?

VORSTER: I said I don`t think that that is correct at all.

MacNEIL: That your country does not, you believe, "define our common humanity" in a different way than other people?

VORSTER: No, in South Africa each and every people are proud of the fact that they belong to a certain people. I`m proud to belong to my race; the Zulu is as proud to be a Zulu as I am to be a white South African; the Xosha is as proud to be a Xosha as I am to be a white South African.

MacNEIL: Then sir, why...

VORSTER: We take a pride, same as the Hollander takes a pride to be a Hollander and the German to be a German.

MacNEIL: Then why are the Stephen Bikos of your country and people like him agitating within the townships like Soweto, which are not part of the Bantustans, which are part of your country -- why are they agitating for more civil rights and recognition within your part of South Africa, if they are content to be defined as you said?

VORSTER: You are coming back to that question again which I have told you that it will be improper for me to discuss with you.

MacNEIL: Not the Stephen Biko case itself, sir, but the political agitation...

VORSTER: No, but you keep coming back to it, and I`ve already told you that it`s improper for me to discuss it with you.

LEHRER: Mr. Prime Minister, do you foresee any further bannings, arrests and detentions against those who are considered dissidents or terrorists in South Africa, in the immediate future?

VORSTER: It is not a question of acting against dissidents; it is a question that a parliament has passed a law empowering the minister of justice to have certain people arrested, to have certain organizations banned if and after these organizations were investigated by three jurists; and naturally, depending on the threat, depending on the Marxist incursions, that unfortunately -- and I want to stress the word "unfortunately" -- that unfortunately will have to go on.

MacNEIL: Prime Minister, our time is up. Thank you very much for joining us today.

VORSTER: Yes; thank you.

MacNEIL: That`s all for tonight. Goodnight, Jim.

LEHRER: Goodnight, Robin.

MacNEIL: Jim Lehrer and I will be back tomorrow night. I`m Robert MacNeil. Goodnight.