The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

MARGARET WARNER: Good evening, and happy 4th of July. I'm Margaret Warner. Jim Lehrer is on vacation. On the NewsHour tonight: A wrap-up of today's top stories; analysis of the week's events from Mark Shields and Byron York; Senegal's success in battling AIDS; a July 4th look at how the founding fathers might see America today; and a novel conversation on the ups and downs of marriage.

NEWS SUMMARY

MARGARET WARNER: The assaults on American forces in Iraq continued today. A U.S. soldier standing guard at the Baghdad Antiquities Museum was killed by sniper fire. On a highway near Balad, in central Iraq, gunmen ambushed a U.S. Convoy. U.S. Troops returned fire, killing all 11 attackers. And a mortar attack at a big U.S. base near Balad, wounded 18 U.S. Soldiers. President bush commemorated July 4th, at an air force base in Dayton, Ohio. He vigorously defended America's military missions abroad saying, "terrorists are on the run."

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Our nation is still at war. The enemies of America plot against us, and many of our fellow citizens are still serving and sacrificing and facing danger in distant places. Without America's active involvement in the world, the ambitions of tyrants would go unopposed and millions would live at the mercy of terrorists.

MARGARET WARNER: The Arab Television channel al Jazeera today released another audio tape of a man claiming to be Saddam Hussein. The man on the tape urged Iraqis to continue armed resistance against the U.S., and not to help the, "infidel occupiers." He said he was in Iraq and had made the tape June 14. It's the second such recording to surface since President Bush declared an end to active hostilities. The CIA is trying to determine the authenticity of both. In West Africa today, Liberian President Charles Taylor again offered to step down to end nearly 14 years of non-stop violence, but he said he'd do so only after international peacekeeping forces arrive. President Bush suggested yesterday Taylor had to leave before the U.S. Would commit troops there. The White House spokesman announced today the president is sending a team of military experts to Liberia to assess the situation. In Monrovia, Taylor had this to say.

PRESIDENT CHARLES TAYLOR: One would want, and it is not unreasonable for the president, the elected constituted president of this nation to require a smooth transition of power. It makes a lot of sense for peacekeepers to arrive in this city before I transit.

MARGARET WARNER: White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said the administration wants to see Taylor "back up his encouraging words with deeds." "If it's true," Fleischer added, "the exact timing will be developed in due course." An explosion rocked a Shiite Muslim mosque in Pakistan today, killing as many as 47 worshippers, and injuring another 50. The blast took place in the southwestern city of Quetta. Some witnesses blamed it on suicide bombers; others on grenades. No one claimed responsibility, but the city has seen frequent violence between minority Shiite and majority Sunni Muslims. Shiites rioted in the streets afterwards, burning cars and tires. Back in this country, two pre-4rth of July fireworks mishaps have claimed eight lives. In Kilgore, Texas, last night, thousands of pounds of fireworks in a tractor-trailer rig exploded inside a warehouse, killing three workers. At least five more people were injured, and several nearby homes and businesses were damaged or destroyed. That followed Wednesday's blast in Bonita Springs, Florida. A truck packed with fireworks ignited while being unloaded at a state park killing five workers. Both incidents are under investigation. America celebrated its 227th Independence Day in the traditional ways with picnics, parades, fireworks, and as usual the swearing-in of brand-new citizens. South Dakotans got an early start last night witha fireworks display over Mount Rushmore. In Bristol, Rhode Island, this morning, residents marched in their 218th consecutive fourth of July parade. In Washington, thousands participated in the annual parade along the National Mall. And in Philadelphia, where the Declaration of Independence was drafted and signed in 1776, a new National Constitution Center was dedicated; among the artifacts on display, the first public printing of the Constitution. Rhythm and blues legend Barry White died today of kidney failures in Los Angeles. Known for his seductive disco music, many of his 1970's hits like "Can't Get Enough of Your Love, Babe" remained popular for three decades. He won two Grammies in 2000 for his songs' staying power. Barry White was 58. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to Shields and York, AIDS success in Senegal, the founding fathers and today's America, and a book conversation about marriage.

FOCUS - SHIELDS AND YORK

MARGARET WARNER: Fourth of July attacks on U.S. soldiers in Iraq, a decision looming on whether to send troops to Liberia and a Democratic primary race in full gear. We begin tonight with an analysis of all that from Shields and York. Syndicated columnist Mark Shields and Byron York of National Review. David Brooks is on vacation. Happy 4th of July.

MARK SHIELDS: Happy 4th of July to you, Margaret.

MARGARET WARNER: Let's start with Liberia. Reports are, Mark, that inside the White House, the president is getting conflicting advice on whether to commit U.S. forces there, true?

MARK SHIELDS: True. Margaret, when General Eric Shinseki left as the army chief of staff, his admonition was beware of ten division army for a 12 division need. We are only talking about 12,000 troops being sent to Liberia, the secretary of defense recognizes that the American military is over deployed it's exhausted, and it's stretched very, very thin around the world: Afghanistan, Balkans, as well as Iraq, 230,000 in the greater Iraq area of operations. So the diplomatic side, Colin Powell representing plea of allies, of Kofi Annan and the U.N., and the pleas of many African nations saying just 2,000 American troops could make the difference in this tiny land of three million.

BYRON YORK: The fight, as it always is, is between the state department and the defense department. And the Defense Department is saying exactly what mark says. Colin Powell has received entreaties from all sorts of people, including Donald Payne, an Africa expert, representative of Donald Payne. And the thing that is driving the timing of this, however, is the fact that Bush is going to Africa on Monday. And he is going to have a summit in West Africa and the State Department does not want him to say to the West African leaders, gee, the situation in Liberia is bad, you guys ought to do something about it. They don't want to say that. The people who are in favor of going to Liberia are arguing cases like East Timor, in which regional power went in there, settled things down, the united nations took over, there was a certain timeline and they feel that this could be something that fits in with the president's general rules for military interventions.

MARGARET WARNER: Mark, is there a political problem for the president and this is a president who campaigned for president scorning nation building. Wouldn't this be classic nation building?

MARK SHIELDS: This would be following the pattern that has been broken. The president has certainly pursued an activist nation building program in Iraq, certainly most ambitious, but Afghanistan as well. And, you know, that along with the humble foreign policy seemed to have been sent somewhere to the new presidential library yet to be designated. To add to what Byron said earlier, the reality this is, Margaret. We have 1.4 million people in uniform today, that's 2.1 million fewer than we had in Vietnam. This is a small military service and it's stretched very, very thin. I understand Rumsfeld's predicament and Powell saying it is only 2,000.

BYRON YORK: I don't think this is an argument that democrats can really make.

MARGARET WARNER: Hypocrisy argument?

BYRON YORK: The hypocrisy argument: They're going to say this is a change in President Bush's position, and by the way, this is really a pretty good idea, and we support it. It is difficult to base an opposition on that. Politically, given the fact that African Americans vote in such preponderance for Democratic candidates, it seems hard that there would not -- democrats are not going to be able to say Liberia is not our problem. There is the memory of the Clinton administration not intervening in Rwanda. Hundreds of thousands of people died and I think that there is probably going to be bipartisan support for this.

MARGARET WARNER: Iraq. During the week where U.S. soldiers are wounded and killed, the president made a remark that stirred a lot of controversy on Wednesday, Byron. Let me just read it. He said there are some who feel the conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer there is bring 'em on. The Democrats landed with cleats on.

BYRON YORK: They were suggesting that the president was inciting violence or inviting attacks on American troops. I really saw it a different way, which is, I think it was almost word of encouragement to the United States troops and to the United States side. If someone is challenging to you a fistfight, and you say bring it on, you are not saying oh, please hurt me. You're saying I'm going to kick your behind. I think that's what Bush said. He is a very plain spoken man. It's kind of like the Osama bin Laden dead or alive comment he made after September 11. I don't think it is a major issue.

MARK SHIELDS: I think, Margaret, that Bruce Buchanan, University of Texas political scientist long time watcher of George Bush put it very well. George bush under pressure goes to this sort of Texas speak. He did it in the time of wanted dead or alive, smoke them out of their caves shortly after 9/11 and did it this week. He has been under pressure and criticism. This is the first time that the president, as commander in chief his policies and their application and their implications has been severely attacked and under scrutiny, not just from beyond the shores but from within these shore. There is no question the president, the aides of his winced when he said it. Let's put it that way.

MARGARET WARNER: Do you think what is going on in Iraq and these almost daily attack, that there is political danger for the president in that?

MARK SHIELDS: Well, I think Democrats who quite frankly were paralyzed when the war was going so well in combat phase now emboldened and they are emboldened for a couple of reason. First of all, is the combat efficiency and effectiveness and minimum of casualties left us with no real post-war plan. And I think it's fair to say, Bob Schrum, the Democratic speechwriter, put it very well. He said this is the first post-war conflict where the entire plan consisted of an ideological presupposition. That was because we hated Saddam Hussein because Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein so much that they would be filled with gratitude and love and appreciation for the Americans. And it's quite obvious that we didn't anticipate this. And I think it's fair to say that that was the neo-cons rosy scenario, that this would all work out, they would strew flowers in the paths of GI's coming into Baghdad. It hasn't been a success.

MARGARET WARNER: Are the Democrats in a position, going back to your earlier argument about Liberia, in a position to exploit this and do you think they will?

BYRON YORK: They'll try but they won't succeed right yet. It's been 63 days since the president declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq. In that time, 27 Americans have been killed in action, to add to the about 100 Americans who were killed in action in the war itself. These are terrible calculations to make because these are real people dying. But in a major ground operation like that, those are historically low casualty figures. I think the American people have a sense that this kind of assignment is dangerous if it is continuing a year from now, yes, I think there could be a political price to pay. I think this is one of the reasons we are seeing such a huge effort on the part of American troops to wipe out these Ba'athist resistance elements. So I don't think the Democrats will succeed, at leave in the short run in trying to make play lei out this, especially since so many supported the war.

MARGARET WARNER: I was going to say since several leading candidates supported the war.

MARK SHIELDS: That's true and they've seen the political fate, fortune and future of Howard Dean who opposed the war, seem to soar in the midst of the bad news since and the sense of vindication. Let's be very frank about this. We've asked 70 troops to send troops and help. Exactly 10 have responded. And France hasn't been asked but Italy and Spain haven't sent any. The Indians willing to send a regiment but only under international, not under U.S. direct control and authority. We are paying a little price for we can do it, we can do it on our own, we can do it by ourselves which was the president and the secretary of defense's assertion and swagger before the war. We are paying a little price for that not having the international force right now.

MARGARET WARNER: Let me go on to the Democratic race. This was the end of the second quarter fund-raising and unofficial totals, surprise winner, Howard Dean, more than $7 million. First of all, why is he being so successful in raising money, Byron?

BYRON YORK: One of the things he has done is made great use of the Internet. He has raised anywhere from $3 million to $4 million of that 7.5 million came from the Internet. The problem with Dean, I think, is that there's still no indication that his core support has expanded beyond the anti-war left. And he's almost very much like the anti-war movement, which made great use of the Internet, they got good turnout at demonstration and thus they could attract a lot of press coverage, but they never represented a wide spectrum of the American people. And they never turned American public opinion against the war. Dean is making good news of the Internet. He can turn out great people and he is getting great press right now but there is no indication that he represents a wide spectrum of Americans or even of Democrats, actually.

MARK SHIELDS: I'm not sure he represents a wider spectrum but I point out that 85 percent of Americans thought the war was going well in May -- down to 56 percent in the latest Gallup poll, same Gallup Poll, hemorrhaging of support there. Howard Dean, I think to look is at the Internet as the explanation is a little bit like the people who looked at FDR and said he is good on radio. If we could get somebody as good on radio. Or people who looked at are Ronald Reagan and said he is good on television. It is not a trick. Individuals are giving. It is not the Internet giving. Not an A.T.M. Machine. He has persuaded people to give. Mark Hannah, the great Republican king maker of presidents said only two things matter in a political campaign. Money is the first and I can't remember the second. The reality is that he has gotten attention. He is probably going to be around for the rest of the race. And I thought the fact that John Kerry and Dick Gephardt both jumped on George Bush's bring 'em on statement, was a reflection not simply that they think the president's support for the war has drifted and the President's policy but they're saying that but that Howard Dean is on to something. Democratic voters were against the war. The Democratic leadership was for it. Howard Dean made that connection fairly early and his fate has been with the war. He kind of went in the trough when the war itself was going so well. Post-war period he seems to h seems to have had a resurgence.

MARGARET WARNER: If you think of the universe of voters in the Democratic primaries, being anti-war may not be such a limited appeal.

BYRON YORK: But in that case, the winner of the democratic nomination will go on to a general election. The Republicans I know right now are pulling for Howard Dean because he appeals to a certain core constituency in the Democratic Party that is more active in the nominating process as conservatives are more active in the nominating process. The problem is, and a lot of Democrats are very worried about this. The problem is will they get a candidate who is broad enough to win the general election. I don't think most of them think Dean is that guy.

MARGARET WARNER: Briefly, do you think we are making too much about the money primary? Is it because the media has nothing ills to cover right now?

MARK SHIELDS: Sure. We are. Let's remember Senator Phil Gramm who in 1996 raised $21 million and never made to it New Hampshire primary. So, I mean, money in itself is not... but what it does is it gives him gravitase and a seriousness. I would point out that In 1968, both the Democratic and Republican candidates for president in the middle of Vietnam were peace candidates, they were both against the war, and for ending the war as soon as they could -- Richard Nixon and Hubert Humphrey.

MARGARET WARNER: Sorry we have to end this. Thank you both.

FOCUS - SENEGAL'S SUCCESS

MARGARET WARNER: As we just discussed, President Bush leaves Monday for a five-day, five- country visit to Africa. On the agenda: Civil wars, famine, and AIDS, but also progress toward democracy and economic growth. His first stop is the west African democracy of Senegal. National security advisor Condoleezza Rice spoke about it yesterday.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Very often when people talk about Africa, they talk about the humanitarian disaster. Well, we're obviously trying to deal with those problems through the famine relief efforts that the president's made, the billion dollars we spend on famine relief, the 200 million dollars we've requested for emergency family-- famine relief, the $15 billion AIDS package with $10 billion of new money, a great proportion would go to Africa because you have 12 of the 14 hardest hit countries there. It's not that we don't recognize the tremendous humanitarian challenges in Africa but it is also important to celebrate those countries in Africa trying to do the right thing. And Senegal is one of those places.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, a second look at a piece about how Senegal is finding success in fighting aids. It was reported by Fred de Sam Lazaro of Twin Cities Public Television as part of our earlier series on AIDS in Africa.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: (May 17, 2001) Senegal has many of the hallmark conditions of African nations that have been ravaged by AIDS: low income, high illiteracy and some traditional customs that can spread the AIDS virus. Yet this West African nation has found ways to stave off the HIV scourge (skit) In this sketch, Mustafa marries his late brother's wife. In Senegal's polygamous society, men often marry their brother's widow or widows. Now he's just been told he has AIDS. The moral of the story find out how your brother died Education and awareness campaigns like this skit in the small town of Louga are one factor that has helped Senegal block an AIDS epidemic; on a continent where HIV infection has topped 30 percent in many nations, Senegal's rate is about 1.4 percent Experts also cite a number of religious and cultural influences, as well as government programs. Even though the government spends barely a dollar per person a year in public health, this former French colony had health screening programs in place before AIDS arrived. Perhaps most importantly, they targeted the commercial sex trade, traditionally the epicenter of an HIV outbreak. In a program that started way back in 1969 to control sexually transmitted diseases, Senegal began requiring its commercial sex workers, or prostitutes, to register themselves at places like the polyclinic here in Dakar, and to come in for regular medical check ups. That program is now key to monitoring the spread of HIV in the country. About one thousand women are registered at this clinic in the capital, Dakar. Each is issued an ID card or carnet, according to Dr. Antoine Mahe.

DR. ANTOINE MAHE: So every month she has to come in for examination, and if its okay, she has a stamp on her carnet. If the police goes to her on a case of prostitution, she has to a card, and the policeman checks the regularity of her visits

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Mama Bambera became a sex worker eight years ago; she says the registration program has been a huge help, both in health care services and information

MAMA BAMBERA (translated): This is a very good thing. I have learned how to protect myself. I did not know anything about AIDS. Now I am able to get the information and to pass it on to people with whom I work, and my family members.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The system isn't foolproof. There's an unknown number of unregistered sex workers, particularly in rural areas. Still, veteran HIV researcher Doctor Suleyman Mboup says the surveillance is paying off. The rate of HIV infection among registered prostitutes is a relatively low 15 percent and it has remained steady since the early 90s

DR. SULEYMAN MBOUP: I am a military by training, I am colonel in the army and I think that even in any war, you need to know first your enemy and we have been able to document very early. If you see this population as I mentioned, you can document very drastic decrease of rate of infection, both SDI or HIV. In this population we was able to document very high knowledge of this population and some behavior change, very high rate of usage of condom.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Senegal may tolerate prostitution but this is still a conservative, overwhelmingly Islamic nation. Some says that could be a reason why HIV hasn't spread as widely here as it has elsewhere on the continent. The imam at Dakar's grand mosque says the most important statistic is that Senegal is 95 percent Muslim

IMAM ELIMANE NDIAYE (translated): Islam is a religion that prohibits sexual deviance; it does not allow taking liberties with your sex life. As a Muslim, you are obliged to choose your wife and stay with her.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: But experts say Senegal's religious leaders went beyond their admonitions based on scriptures. Unlike counterparts in other nations, they acknowledged the threat of HIV, often from the pulpit. And they joined the government in the early 90s in declaring AIDS prevention a national priority. As a result, ordinary Senegalese...workers at the port of Dakar like Ousmane Sarr, have been bombarded by AIDS awareness campaigns. But Sarr insists he's guided much more by religious principle

OUSMANE SARR (translated): My primary consideration is for my religion, which as I said, does not permit me to take liberties with my sex life. So why should I be so frivolous to go from one woman to another? And also there is the danger that we have been made aware of.

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Sarr is 30, has just one wife but says he may marry again as he becomes more financially secure. Islam sanctions polygamy, but it also demands fidelity of each spouse. The Muslim religion also bans alcohol consumption, which is often associated with casual sex. In addition, Muslim men are circumcised. Studies show circumcised males are less likely to get HIV.

(Village Call to Prayer)

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: However, some experts are concerned that rural areas, where more than half the Senegalese live, remain vulnerable to an outbreak. People here are less likely than their urban counterparts to talk frankly about sex, and they have more economic hardships and fewer resources. In villages like Niomre, about 100 miles north of the capital, Dakar, people pride themselves on living by Islamic family values. AIDS seems a distant problem. For example, many women we spoke to had never seen a condom except in an advertisement.

WOMAN (translated): Only on television. You see, we have good family values, being faithful to our husbands is protection enough for us; we are loyal to each other

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: The concern among health workers, however, is that many men in this village fit into a classic high risk group for HIV in Africa. Many travel away for extended periods in search of work prime customers for the commercial sex industry. That's what happened to "Amadou", who said an affair with an undocumented sex worker he met in a marketplace led to his infection. And although his wife has tested HIV negative, Amadou feels condemned as a social pariah.

AMADOU (translated): This is very difficult. This is a taboo here. If I went to see the imam or a fellow Muslim, they would say, okay this guy was coming here in the mosque, praying with us, but he was a hypocrite; he engaged in bad behavior, shame on him!

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Religious leaders say they'll continue to preach the Koranic prohibition against adultery as the best prevention. However, they insist that doesn't condemn those with HIV.

LOUGA IMAM (translated): When I meet someone who rejects people with AIDS, I remind them that they cannot be sure that the person contracted it by cheating on his wife. There are many other ways to catch AIDS, so we have to be careful. We also have to take into account that, according to the Koran, God is most merciful. If a person repents, God will forgive, so who are we to not give assistance to such a person?

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: One worry among public health workers is that side from fictional drama or TV spots, most people in Senegal have never personally met anyone with AIDS.

AMADOU ANTANDIAYE, Student (translated): I'm not sure what the hype is all about, because you hear so much about this but I have never met anyone ill with this disease, so you wonder if it is real

FRED DE SAM LAZARO: Public health workers worry about the potential for complacency a worry that most parts of Africa, overwhelmed by AIDS would gladly trade.

MARGARET WARNER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight: The founding fathers on July 4th, 2003; and a novel about marriage.

FOCUS - FOUNDING FATHERS

MARGARET WARNER: Now, a 4th of July view of America today, through the lens of its founding fathers. Jim Lehrer taped this discussion earlier.

JIM LEHRER: And what would those who founded this country think about it now in the year 2003? We get some informed speculation from four people who have studied the founders: Joyce Appleby, professor emeritus at UCLA, has written about Thomas Jefferson and the Revolutionary and post- Revolutionary War era; Joseph Ellis of Mt. Holyoke College won the Pulitzer Prize for his book, "Founding Brothers, The Revolutionary Generation." He also wrote a book on Jefferson. Richard Brookhiser's latest book is "Gentleman Revolutionary: Gouverneur Morris, the Rake Who Wrote the Constitution," he's a senior editor at the National Review; he's also written biographies of George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, and the Adamses. Walter Isaacson is the author of the just-published "Benjamin Franklin: An American Life." He's the president of the Aspen Institute, former editor of Time Magazine and head of CNN.

Joseph Ellis, was creating the most powerful nation in the world, as the U.S.A. is today, what most of the founders had in mind?

JOSEPH ELLIS: I don't think in 1776 that's what they had in mind; they intended to secede from the British Empire, and they felt they were improvising on the edge of catastrophe. Bringing them into the 21st century is probably like planting cut flowers. My own view is that at least two of them - Alexander Hamilton and George Washington - saw the emergent American Republic as a prospective world power and wouldn't be too surprised to see us as the overwhelming hegemonic power at the dawn of the 21st century.

JIM LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Joyce Appleby, about Hamilton and Washington?

JOYCE APPLEBY: Yes, I do, and I would add Jefferson as well, because one of the interesting things is that these 13 colonies that turned themselves into 13 confederated states, they're on this shelf of land between the Appalachian Mountains and the Atlantic Ocean, and yet, they took the word "Continental" - Continental Congress, and they thought about a continental destiny. This is really quite remarkable when you think about it, so they certainly had a vision that the American state was going to grow geographically. But at the same time they were aware that it was an experiment and that it was a republic for fragile forms of government, so they sort of oscillated between this - this sort of exaggerated confidence in what the United States was going to become I think morally as a free nation but also geographically and their real worries and concerns about whether or not this frail experiment was going to survive.

JIM LEHRER: Richard, what do you think they would think about what this country is now?

RICHARD BROOKHISER: Well, you have to remember that the Revolutionary War was eight and a half years from start till the peace treaty, so that war was longer than the Civil War and our participation of World War II put together. It was a long grueling experience and a lot of consciousness changing occurred during it. I think Professor Ellis is right. At the beginning, people were not thinking in terms of empires or even necessarily a huge nation; but by the end of it they were. And I'll also throw in Governor Morris. He said this generation will pass away, and give rise to a race of Americans.

JIM LEHRER: Now, what about Ben Franklin, Walter?

WALTER ISAACSON: You know, way back in 1754, he first had the notion that the colonies should get together. He had this Albany plan of union when they all met in Albany to figure out how to fight the French and the Indians and that sort of thing, but he was also back then a true believer in the British Empire. He just believed in the notion of empire and that it would expand, and he called it a fine, noble vase, and finally in late 1775, he realizes that it's shattered irreparably, so first of all, he does want to see a new union of the colonies, not just 13 separate colonies signing the Declaration but he writes an article of confederation, an early model of the articles that's a very strong sense of union and he has a great sense of the expansive empire that America could become.

JIM LEHRER: What do you think he would think of the country generally right now? Would he be pleased with who we are and what we've become as a people, as well as a nation?

WALTER ISAACSON: You know, I think he would like the notion that America stands for tolerance and religious tolerance, and he would sort of rankle when we fail that. He also would like the notion that we can find some common ground in compromise. You know, last week when the Supreme Court did the affirmative action decision, that was a very Ben Franklin like decision, which is, you know, we know there's some common sense somewhere in here, and let's just see if we can try to work it out. What he wouldn't like is the divisiveness and the partisanship that you see today because he was always somebody - you know, he's like a tradesman; he said, you take a little bit off the plank here and a little bit off the plank here and we could form a very good joint and make a very good society.

JIM LEHRER: Joe Ellis, what would you add to what - Walter is talking about Ben Franklin, but go through some of the -- well, for instance, Jefferson, what do you think he would think of us as people right now and some of the contemporary things that are happening to us as a country?

JOSEPH ELLIS: Well, you know, the notion that we can establish Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq would probably be something that would be interesting to ask him about. Jefferson did believe the principles on which the American republic were based as articulated in the Declaration were universal principles, but if you bring him into the present, we're going to have to brief him on the last 180 years of American history and so it's tough to know what he'd say, but if I were to speak for him in Baghdad, I'd say that he would say we have to begin this new Iraq republic with the principle of separation of church and state. On the Michigan decision on affirmative action I think the words of Jefferson in the Declaration cited by both sides -- those who believe like Mr. Rehnquist and Scalia for example that it was the wrong decision because the Declaration does root rights in individuals and has very little to say about government power to redistribute those rights. On the other hand, the mandate towards equality that is articulated in that creedal statement, the magic words, the 58 words of the Declaration that begin "We hold these truths to be self-evident," you could see a movement from Jefferson to Lincoln to Martin Luther King and you could see the decision in Michigan as the next chapter in a long saga.

JIM LEHRER: Joyce Appleby, what do you see in present-day events, any of the ones that they have already mentioned or any one that you would like to add or subtract, and then focus it back on what the founders might react to having seen it happen.

JOYCE APPLEBY: Well, I think that the founders would be impressed by the fact that democracy is spreading in the world. After all, theirs was one of the few republics in a world of tyrannies and monarchies so that it would be quite remarkable to think that, what, there are 112 democracies in the world today - clearly, there would be some sort of a jolt as to seeing what kind of societies we have in the early 21st century, but I believe - again there is this kind of ambivalence - the founders really did believe these were universal principles, at the same time they recognized that they were path breakers, they were experimenting, and I think it would be quite reassuring for them to see that democracies are flourishing many places, they're struggling other places, but they are definitely in the ascendance. I think that would be extremely gratifying because they would feel that their revolutions had been the beginning of an entirely new future for humankind.

JIM LEHRER: Who were the most nervous among the founders, Joyce Appleby, those who were not so sure that this was going to last, or maybe it was truly a precarious experiment, or were there any?

JOYCE APPLEBY: Oh, I think John Adams was. He felt that were certain principles that had to be followed in the structuring of government. I think he was worried about the absence of an elite that was secure institutionally. But really they all were. Madison in writing the Constitution was upset that the Congress wasn't going to have a veto power over the state legislatures. And here this made him feel that the experiment was indeed at risk. I think most of them who have studied politics seriously, and they really did - they were well read as much as they could be in all the previous governments in the world - so I don't think that doubt was connected with any one group of the anti-federalists who were once called the men of little faith because they worried about having an expanded government and a consolidated nation as opposed to keeping politics at the local level. There were different worries, and they are spread across the population of revolutionary leaders. I think all of them were anxious about it. This was quite an experiment, and they were mindful - they're mindful of all the pitfalls lying ahead, and of course the Civil War would have confirmed their fears- we're so far past the Civil War that we no longer see it as a rent in the Constitution and a severe rebuke of the revolutionary edition -- the Civil War - and not its conclusion.

JIM LEHRER: So if we were having this discussion on a television program during the Civil War, we might get four different sets of answers from the four of you?

JOYCE APPLEBY: Absolutely.

RICHARD BROOKHISER: I think nervous is too mild a word.

JIM LEHRER: Is that right?

RICHARD BROOKHISER: When we have elections, we know there's going to be a next one, you know, so if you lose, your side loses, you know you have another chance. None of these men knew that. I mean their theory taught them that this should be the way it should work and they have some experience at colonial governments with elections that didn't have ultimate power, but they did not know that this was going to work; when they're at the Constitutional Convention, I think it's Elbridge Jerry says - that if we fail, the cause of republican government will be lost and will be disgraced forever. You know, so you had these rubes in America thinking that if they didn't get this right, it was going to have world historical consequences, and they had a tremendous weight of responsibility on their shoulders.

JIM LEHRER: What about George Washington, he's the one we don't know what much about? You studied him for years and wrote a major book about him. What was his level of confidence about whether this thing was going to work and last?

RICHARD BROOKHISER: Jefferson said that Washington was a man of gloomy apprehensions.

JIM LEHRER: Gloomy apprehensions -

RICHARD BROOKHISER: Apprehension, yes, and he had a lot to make himself gloomy, from whether he was going to win this war to whether he was going to be a good first president, and there was a lot on his shoulders, perhaps more than on any other individuals. I think the way he handled it is he just resolved to do his duty every day and to face every challenge.

JIM LEHRER: Walter, having just said - go ahead.

JOSEPH ELLIS: Could I just get - I'm working on Washington, and I agree with what Richard says, that at one point Washington says, if we can survive the first 20 years, then we have the potential to become a great imperial power, an empire over this continent and a force in the world, but he wasn't sure we'd get through the first 20 years.

JIM LEHRER: I see. Walter, you've just spent a long time, how many years did you work on your Franklin book?

WALTER ISAACSON: Twelve years.

JIM LEHRER: Twelve years. Do you feel - and all these other three authors, and there are many others have written books, contemporary books, about these people we've been talking about, do you feel that we give too much attention to them? Do they still deserve the awe that we as a general society as well as all of you all, scholars and writers who are writing about them, give to them?

WALTER ISAACSON: There's an amazing sense of value that they bring to the table there.

JIM LEHRER: Do they look fresh today?

WALTER ISAACSON: 1776 and at the Constitutional Convention -- and they look fresh today. In fact, Professor Ellis talked about, you know, we hold these truths to be self-evident, a pretty amazing phrase, but if you go down in this town in Washington, down to the Library of Congress, and you look at the first draft that Thomas Jefferson wrote - and he writes this draft, it's all scratchy, and goes to the Library of Congress and he gives it to John Adams and Benjamin Franklin to edit it, and he has, we hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, and then you see Franklin's little back slashes because Franklin was an old, old printer, and so he uses those back slashes, and he writes, self evident instead of sacred. He says we're going to make assertions of reason, not assertions of religion here, and he had this great debate at the notion of the reasonable tolerance that was built into this document, and likewise when you talked about the optimism or the pessimism in George Washington, you know, George Washington's sitting in that chair; he's got the sun carved on the back of it during the Constitutional Convention, and famously afterwards Franklin says I always wondered whether that was a setting sun or arising sun but I now know it's a rising sun, and they go outside into that hot Philadelphia air and Mrs. - one of the great old dames of Philadelphia comes up and says, what have you all done in there - because they'd been behind closed doors, what have you given us, what have you wrought, and Franklin says, a republic, Madam, if you can keep it, and they really did realize, this was something exceptional that they had wrought.

JOSEPH ELLIS: But "if you keep it" is a very important part of that phrase, and for, you know, many periods in the first 25 years, it looked like they themselves weren't keeping it.

JIM LEHRER: Joyce Appleby, do you think these men deserve the attention we're giving them, that we still give them?

JOYCE APPLEBY: Oh, I certainly do. I think they were fascinating and what they had to say is extraordinarily pertinent because they really immerse themselves in political theory so they're interested in how government works, how you protect individual rights, how you manage to sustain order, but I would say that in the last 40 years we've learned a lot about the people who surrounded them, that is to say their wives, their daughters, African Americans, both free and enslaved, the small farmers, working class people, artisans, and I think it's - to me it's wonderful that we now have the social and cultural context in which to understand what much more fully - these men were certainly deserving of our attention - not only because of what they did but what they thought, and that's not even counting the fighting of the revolution itself, which is a wonderful story about Washington's endurance, and I love the phrase that Washington never won a battle and never knew he'd lost one, and that was a spirit that is quite indomitable.

JIM LEHRER: Joe Ellis, finally, do you believe based on all your immersion in this period and what these men did, do you believe it would never have happened without them? Did they seize the moment; did the moment seize them? How would you in simple words tell us how important they were?

JOSEPH ELLIS: Well, they made the revolution. Without them it wouldn't have happened. The major figures that we're talking about - on the other hand the revolution made them too and as Richard was saying earlier, changed their thinking and made them understand things in a way that at the start of the process they didn't understand, so the revolution was, as everybody's been saying, really risky, contentious, and in the end it was an improbable success. Also, without a doubt, this is the greatest collection of political leadership the United States has ever had. I know that we've talked about the greatest generation in the 20th century but this is the greatest generation of political talent, and it's still a bit of a mystery and a miracle to understand how in a total population of like 4 million, about the size of modern LA, you've got this galaxy of leaders, and I think in the end it was the experience of the revolution as an educational process and a kind of Darwinian process, that selected them out and vaulted them into the positions that they enjoyed.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. Joyce Appleby, gentlemen, thank you all four very much.

CONVERSATION

MARGARET WARNER: Finally tonight, a book conversation, and to Ray Suarez.

RAY SUAREZ: The book is "Marriage: A Duet." It consists of two novellas. The first published fiction by news essayist Anne Taylor Fleming. The threat that bind the story are marriage and infidelity. And Anne Taylor Fleming, the two couples singing these duets, when we first meet them, aren't singing very harmoniously.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: Well, no. The first one is about 50s era wife, Caroline, sit beside the death bed of her husband in a hospital and reliving her very long marriage, and part of the memories are glorious. She's been deeply blissfully married. But what she's also remembering is an incident is an department of infidelity about 20 years in when he fell seriously in love with a younger woman. I like to think it is a braid of sorrow and joy but there is pain. I think that as a novice fiction writer, I see what draws me is kind of the damage we do to love. After I finished the first one, I wrote Short. I knew hi to write a companion, and I had the in the back of my head a sort of reverse story where it's a much more current marriage but it is the wife who has the affair and how the man adjusts and how in both cases the marriages endure.

RAY SUAREZ: With that endurance there, seems to be very little sense of accomplishment or triumph that the two couples held it together, are holding it together when so many others don't.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: Oh, I think oh, Ray, I think in their souls there is, but I do think that the incidents of fidelity have scarred the heart and I think the marriage... there is a sense of triumph in the endurance but at cost. One of the things that I think happened in the first one, in the 50s era -- one of the things I rather like about the first one and I mean these are unconscious decisions you make as a novelist, is that it was a very passionate, very erotic marriage. We have the idea of 50s era marriages being sort of placid and not free wheeling. But she never again, the wife after the infidelity, recaptures shall we say, that lustful joyous delirious longing because it's been damaged. But I do think there is a sense of triumph too soon strong a word, but pleasure perhaps in a very muted sense, that they have gone forward and grown old together.

RAY SUAREZ: I got a strong sense when reading about these two couples, that there was a realization on both their parts that there was a marriage, this thing, this edifice, there's me, there's you and there's our marriage, like a third personality.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: Yeah. It's interesting. I have been married 30 years, and I think that that's true. I think of it that way. I hadn't thought of it again consciously, but when you say it that seems to be write. I think marriage is the most amazing institutions. You sign on at a fairly young age, the people in my book do, I did. You are supposed to stay with that person, honor them, presumably not hurt them or certainly not cheat on them. And it's a long, complicated nuanced dance we do. I mean there is nothing like marriage. It is really marriage I wanted to write about much more than the infidelity. I wanted to try to capture the nuance of a long marriage and then of course the infidelity which is the most painful thing that can happen to a lock good marriage. I didn't want to write dysfunctional characters, things thrown against the wall. I wanted to write about marriages like the ones I know and people I know.

RAY SUAREZ: Is it a daunting thing to write about marriages? Some of the most well worn territory in the history of the world. Everybody who is married thinks they know a lot about it already before they read one page of what you have to say.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: It's a very good point. As a fiction writer what you say or really as a writer, it's your serer to. It's new-- it's your territory -- 30 years ago when I first started thinking about writing a novel and didn't do it then for all kinds of reasons. One also I wanted to make a writer-- make a living as a writer so I went into journalism. And I thought when I get around to it, I'll write about marriage. Marriage is the most combustive complicated thing. It is much more powerful and deep than an affair or a quickie romance. It contains so many emotions as everybody who has been married knows. But you are not daunted. You go forward. A lot of stuff that we all write about, other people have written about as somebody once said to me. If you haven't written about it, it hasn't been written about the way you are going to write about it.

RAY SUAREZ: What kind of reactions have been getting from the married, formerly married, unmarried people who have been reading this book?

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: Very passionate. It has been fascinating to me. My friends both have argued about the characters in the book I had the most amazing experience with my friends and they were discussing it as if I were out of the room. They were arguing about the decision the wife made in the first one or the husband made in the second one. I've also had people wanting to me about their own marriages. Call-in talk shows people wanting to unburden their hearts. Men have responded as strongly and been as interested in talking to me about issues in their marriage or survival of their marriage as women. And that's been really... it's been gratifying. You don't think about that when you write -- you don't think about who is going to respond but in the aftermath, it has been very gratifying.

RAY SUAREZ: Let's talk a little bit about men because in the second book, it's really the interior life of a man who is trying to cope with the short lived infidelity of his wife and doesn't seem to be able to pull out of this spiral he is in.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: Again, looking back, I kind of have always believed there is this theory that men are from one planet and women are from another. That's been widely touted over the last stretch of years. I don't think I believe that in my conscious frame. I mean, this is a man who is as deeply married, as passionately in love with his wife and as passionately in love with the idea of his marriage as the wife in the first one. And when his wife has a quickie one-night stand, it shatters his whole sense of the ground underneath his feet. He hangs on to it; he hangs on to the grief. There is not a quickie get over. I did write they go off to the therapist -- hands up on anti-depressants. He does all of the trendy sort of cure-alls for a broken heart, and they don't work because in some ways, he's stubbornly, if some people might think a little stupidly, honors the grief and the sense of loss.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, there has been a lot of discussion in recent years about whether marriage is in trouble. Do you have a different feel for that now than you did before you started to write?

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: That's a very good question. I don't think majority is in trouble. I think one of the things, not to get too current but certainly after 9/11, one of the things that we all talked about was the enduring deep, long relationships, marriage being primary among them. Who can forget those last phone calls, you know. Those are searing for all of us. I don't think marriage is in trouble. I think though that maybe what we are getting to, and I like to think I put on paper, a much more realistic idea of how complicated and nuanced and difficult it can be, even if it endures and even if it is good and even if it is loving and all the things we might want. Things happen to people and people hurt each other -- even people who love each other. I think marriage is a great topic, both for fiction and currently it's a big topic for non-fiction.

RAY SUAREZ: The book is "Marriage: A duet." Anne Taylor Fleming, great to see you.

ANNE TAYLOR FLEMING: Thank you.

RECAP

MARGARET WARNER: Again, the major developments of the day. In Iraq, a U.S. soldier standing guard at a Baghdad museum was killed. 18 other Americans were injured in a mortar attack, and 11 Iraqis were killed when they attacked a U.S. Military convoy. Liberian President Charles Taylor again offered to resign but only after international peacekeeping forces restore order. And an explosion killed as many as 47 worshippers in a Shiite Muslim mosque in Pakistan. And before we go, a reminder to tune in tonight for "A Capitol Fourth," the annual PBS broadcast of the celebration on the mall in Washington. Check your local listings for the time. We'll see you online, and again here Monday evening. Have a nice weekend. I'm Margaret Warner, thanks for being with us. Good night.