The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight we update the story of the group suicide in California; Kwame Holman and Elizabeth Farnsworth explore a basketball thing called March madness; Mark Shields and Kate O'Beirne examine the political week, Paul Gigot is off; and Richard Ostling of "Time" Magazine chronicles the search for Jesus. It all follows our summary of the news this Friday. NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: San Diego authorities continued their follow-up work today on the suicide of 39 members of a group known as Heaven's Gate. Their leader was identified as 66-year-old Marshall Applewhite, whose body was among those removed yesterday from the house North of San Diego. Investigators believe the deaths were caused by a lethal mixture of phenobarbital and vodka. Applewhite formerly led a UFO cult in the 1970s with a woman named Bonnie Nettles, who later died of cancer. In an afternoon news conference Jack Brown with the San Diego County Sheriff's Office said how the follow-up will proceed.

JACK BROWN, San Diego County Sheriff's Office: You know, our major task during the last week and well into next week will be to once again to look at what happened, to look at how it happened, and, of course, to look at those involved. Out of that may come some information as to why it happened, but I'm not too sure that we will ever have satisfactory answers to that question as to why 39 people would do something like this.

JIM LEHRER: We'll have more on this right after the News Summary. In Washington today President Clinton ordered new protections for those involved in secret government-sponsored research. The rules would make clear the risks that require the informed consent of all subjects. LA presidential commission had recommended the changes after an investigation of radiation experiments in the 1940s. The government has settled claims with 16 families of victims of those experiments. Energy Secretary Pena announced the new procedures at the White House.

FEDERICK PENA, Energy Secretary: Today's announced actions are designed to increase public trust, to ensure public accountability, and demonstrate this administration's continuing commitment to openness in government. When he accepted the report of the Advisory Committee, the President stated, "Our greatness is measured not only in how we do right but also in how we act when we know we've done the wrong thing, how we confront our mistakes make our apologies, and take action." We stand here today to make our government accountable to our citizens and to assure the American people of our commitment to do the right thing.

JIM LEHRER: Pena said no federal agencies are conducting classified experiments involving human subjects at this time. Vice President and Mrs. Gore traveled to South Korea today as part of their eight-day Asian trip. Gore met with Prime Minister Koh Kun in Seoul and toured the city. Gore is scheduled to meet with South Korean President Kim Young Sam tomorrow. They are expected to discuss plans for peace talks between North and South Korea and the United States and China. Those four-way talks will be aimed at formally ending the Korean War and easing tensions in the region. House Speaker Newt Gingrich was also in Asia today. He met in Beijing with Chinese Premier Li Peng and President Jiang Zemin. He spoke earlier with other Chinese leaders about allegations China tried to influence U.S. elections with illegal donations. The Chinese government has denied that. Gingrich said he told China's Vice Premier there were apparently renegades who were violating the law. He asked for China's help in tracking them down. On the Middle East story U.S. Envoy Dennis Ross headed back to Washington today after two days of meetings with Israeli and Palestinian leaders. He met with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu today. Netanyahu said later only a Palestinian crackdown on terrorism could save the peace process. There were more clashes between Palestinian protesters and Israeli soldiers in the West Bank town of Hebron. In Tunis, Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat called on Arab and Muslim countries to help force Israel to stop doing a housing project in East Jerusalem. Back in this country today Robert Pinsky was named Poet Laureate of the United States. Librarian of Congress James Billington made that announcement. The 56-year-old Pinsky has written five books of verse, as well as a translation of Dante's "Inferno." He teaches creative writing at Boston University and edits poetry for "Slate," A weekly Internet magazine. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to more on the group suicide in California, March madness, some political analysis, and the search for Jesus. FOCUS - INSIDE HEAVEN'S GATE

JIM LEHRER: Who were those 39 people who took their lives in a Southern California mansion, and why did they do it? Those questions are at the heart of our second-day look at the Heaven's Gate story that begins with this update by Charles Krause.

MARSHALL APPLEWHITE, Heaven's Gate Leader: Planet Earth about to be recycled. Your only chance to evacuate is to leave with us.

CHARLES KRAUSE: These were the words of Marshall Applewhite, the 66-year-old cult leader who convinced 38 of his followers to commit suicide earlier this week. Wednesday evening Applewhite's group, called Heaven's Gate, and its leader were found dead by San Diego sheriff's deputies in a rented mansion 20 miles North of San Diego, in a quiet, affluent community called Rancho Santa Fe. Applewhite, who reportedly first became interested in the occult some 20 years ago, was an accomplished singer and musician who received a Master's degree from the music school at the University of Colorado in the early 60s. In 1966, he moved to Texas, where he performed with the Houston Grand Opera. He also talked music at the University of St. Thomas, a private, Roman Catholic college. It was in Houston that Applewhite met Bonnie Lou Trusdale Nettles, a nurse who became his companion in the early 70s. Calling themselves Bo and Peep and later Do and Ti, Nettles and Applewhite traveled throughout the West attempting to recruit followers, promising them a better life. In 1975, they received national attention when Applewhite and Nettles convinced approximately 20 residents of a small town in Oregon to follow them to Colorado, where the group was supposedly to meet a UFO. But due to attention from the media and investigations by the police, the group was soon forced to go underground. Throughout the 80's, they remained barely visible, but then in May of 1993, they resurfaced. Using the name Total Overcomers Anonymous, Applewhite group ran a full-age ad in "USA Today," urging people to join them. Then last year Heaven's Gate rented the million dollar mansion in Rancho Santa Fe, where Applewhite continued his prosthelytizing, using videotapes to reach potential followers.

MARSHALL APPLEWHITE: We came for the express purpose to offer a doorway to the kingdom of God at the end of this civilization, the end of this age, the end of this millennium.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Applewhite told his followers they would be picked up by a spacecraft after leaving their human vessels.

MARSHALL APPLEWHITE: We will go definitely on board a craft to leave when spading occurs. You can say, well, what's the difference? Well, the difference is we don't know if we're going to take these flesh bodies on board that craft, or if we'll leave these flesh bodies behind. We don't believe that our Father's kingdom has much need for these flesh bodies, but it's possible that a spacecraft will come down, and we'll walk on board that craft, and they'll take these bodies from us and issue us the ones that belong to that level, so that we might begin service, or it is also possible that part of our test of faith is our hating this world, even our flesh body enough to be willing to leave it without any proof, other than what we have come to know.

CHARLES KRAUSE: Among those who chose to join Applewhite, leaving the bodies they were in, were 21 women and 17 men, ranging in age from 26 to 72 years old.

JIM LEHRER: Now for more on Heaven's Gate from two people who have been following this group. Laurie Goodstein is a religion writer for the "Washington Post." James Walker is the president of the Watchman Fellowship, an evangelical Christian group that tracks cults. Ms. Goodstein, let's start there with the people who died this week, the 39 people. What more can you add to what we know, except the fact that they were split half, roughly half men, half women, the age group from 20 to 72, as Charles Krause just said, what other? Was there any overriding, uniting characteristic about them?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN, Washington Post: Well, we're only beginning to learn about who these people were. Some of them clearly joined up with Applewhite, Applewhite's group, back in the 70s. We can perhaps believe that some of the older people were true believers from that era. Maybe only a handful joined at that point, and then some of the younger people might have joined on when the group resurfaced in the 90s and trekked across the country, appearing on college campuses and in libraries, trying to attract people to the group. And they didn't attract a whole lot of people but they attracted enough to come with them to Rancho Santa Fe, work in their computer business. The only thing we know that unites the group has something to do with what the theology, as a belief system of the group, that attracted these members. Applewhite and Nettles in their collaboration show that they were a mix. Applewhite was a son of a Presbyterian minister and had some familiarity with the Bible and with Christian belief. Nettles was an astrologer, and together they forged a kind of a biblical new age or biblical science fiction theology that is clearly what drew the members in.

JIM LEHRER: Was it unique, or are there a lot of beliefs like that floating around out there?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Well, there are a lot of different groups, but each one has its own specific flavor. I mean, there are probably hundreds of UFO groups, and there are certainly hundreds of biblically based cults as well. But what the appeal of this group is they had a particular merger of these two beliefs. I mean, the group were "Star Trek" fans. They were very much into modern science fiction. And there's no group that you could find that has exactly this group's beliefs. They borrowed from many, many sources.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Walker, is there anything known about their--in general terms--their education level, their--their backgrounds, that sort of thing?

JAMES WALKER, Cult Researcher: We don't have that information yet, but I would not be surprised to find out that these people are well educated, articulate. There's a misconception that the cults appeal to people who are disenfranchised, or who are poorly educated. What we're finding is our organization, Watchman Fellowship, is that the opposite is true; that the cults are really going after not just the young people but also those who have families, who are mature, who have jobs even. And what we are noticing takes place is what was reported in 1994 in "Modern Maturity" Magazine. They did a cover story about the cults, saying that they're not just after your children or grandchildren; now, they're after you.

JIM LEHRER: Yeah. But specifically on Heaven's Gate, would you agree with Ms. Goodstein's characterization of what--what their message was that appealed to people?

JAMES WALKER: Yes, it was a blending, but I would not say it was that unique. What we're finding is that there is a number of the UFO groups that are just believing in the possibility of life on other planets and are looking for physical evidences of aliens or of spacecraft. That is not all a cult. What we're finding in the case of Heaven's Gate's, and we find this in a number of other UFO cults, is when a belief system with a theology, a cosmology, a change of world view is packaged into it to where it becomes not really that much dealing with spacecraft or aliens, a lot to do with religion, and soMr. Applewhite was able to exercise undue control over his followers with the message that it wasn't really him talking; that this alien entity had actually come into him to enter his body in 1975, and that the message that he was using was beyond the time-space continuum. It was outside of the human experience, and so that gave him an authority position to be able to exercise control over the lives of those in his group. And this is not really that unlike what we see in other forms of occultism. We see it in some forms of a new age. We see it in the channelers who are likewise--

JIM LEHRER: Who are they? I'm sorry. I don't know them.

JAMES WALKER: People like J.Z. Knight, who is a channeler in Yelm, Washington, who channels a spirit named Arantha. She claims this being is a 35,000 year old warrior from the Lost Continent of Atlantis, and she goes into a trance and invites this spirit in her body. Many of our viewers may have seen the movie "Ghost," where Whoopie Goldberg plays the part of a channeler, and she supposedly, with special effects, has the spirit of the dead boyfriend, Patrick Swayze, come inside her body.

JIM LEHRER: Right. Actually I saw that movie. I didn't realize the term "channeler" applied to that.

JAMES WALKER: Well, that's what that is.

JIM LEHRER: That's what that was. Okay.

JAMES WALKER: What we're finding is that with some of the UFO cults it's really just the same trick with different props. So rather than conducting a dead relative or Cleopatra or some ancient ascended master, what they are contacting is supposedly a space alien. But the philosophy is the same. The teachings are very similar. Even the techniques are sometimes identical.

JIM LEHRER: Ms. Goodstein, yes, go ahead.

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Well, I'd like to add that belief is really only part of the draw. I mean, you can't get people to pick up, leave their families, leave their hometowns, leave their jobs, leave perhaps relationships they were in solely on belief. You have to offer them more. And something that this group did seem to offer was a total acceptance, a feeling that if you--if you feel like you don't fit in the society, well, here are the others who are like you. It was a family. There was a degree of conformity that, you know, people could drop their individualism or anything that was, that they felt insecure about themselves, and suddenly feel part of a unit. And that's perhaps a more psychological appeal, but those two--the theological and the psychological--go together.

JIM LEHRER: Was there a sexual element to this, Ms. Goodstein?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Well, there may have been in that--that's something we're learning more about now--and that this group really asked people to drop their sexuality. The people that have seen pictures of the members of this group, they appear rather androgynous. The men and women are wearing very short hair. In fact, when the investigators first went through the house, they believed all the victims there were men. That's because they dressed them the same; they--at least when they died, they were dressed in black. And there was an overt attempt to mask sexuality. The people involved in the cult were not supposed to get involved with each other, as there was a prohibition against marriage. There was a code of celibacy, and I think we're now coming up with some more clues about why the leader may have wanted that to be.

JIM LEHRER: What are you talking about? What do you mean--that he had a sexual thing of some kind?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Well, that he suffered some degree, himself, of sexual repression.

JIM LEHRER: And so in order to be one of his followers you had to do the same thing he did, is that what-- LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Yes.

JIM LEHRER: Well, you know, the medical examiner said a while ago in a news conference, the San Diego medical examiner, said some of these men had been castrated. He didn't have the numbers yet. How does that fit into that?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Well, I wouldn't want to presume, but I think it's consistent with the idea of--that the group members were masking their own true identities. I mean, they didn't use their real names. They didn't use last names. They never spoke apparently to outsiders about what they had done in their lives before they became members of this group, and so perhaps that sexual masking of who you are is part of--part of that process of dropping individuality.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. Walker, is it likely that all believers of this specific group, all the believers of Heaven's Gate, died? In other words, there were only 39 of them, and they're gone, there are not any more out there that we're going to hear about in two weeks or a week or a month or a year from now?

JAMES WALKER: I would be surprised if this is all. Usually in any group like this that requires a total obedience and a very strict lifestyle, there are going to be people on the periphery. There are still followers of David Koresh. We thought that there was--most of the followers of Um Sharay and the Order of the Solar Temple had passed away back in 1994, and then just last weekend there were deaths in Canada, suicides, a parallel, these people also thinking that by taking their lives they were able to visit a distant planet. And so I would not be surprised to find out that there are more people that are peripheral followers of Mr. Applewhite.

JIM LEHRER: What's your view of that, Ms. Goodstein?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: Well, we'll see, but I do believe that this group that was found was the core group. This was the group with enough loyalty to follow their leader to the very end, and that if we do find peripheral followers, they may be people who didn't believe to the same degree, who were disillusioned at some point, or who dropped off for other reasons.

JIM LEHRER: Do you believe, Ms. Goodstein, that these folks who were--who joined this cult knew from the beginning or believed from the beginning or bought in from the beginning that eventually they were going to have to take their own lives?

LAURIE GOODSTEIN: No. I think that's very rare in the way a group like this works. They're drawn in gradually. The leader may not have known at the outset where he was headed. But it begins with an "Are you interested in what we're interested in?"; "Gee, UFO's are interesting." Then it moves on to, "Well, we offer a safe environment, a family, a place you can belong." And gradually people become more committed and become more--I mean, that's the- -the level of commitment it would take for someone to take their own life, something that's built up over many, many years.

JAMES WALKER: It's almost a bait and switch.

JIM LEHRER: What do you mean?

JAMES WALKER: Well, when we first came in contact with the group personally was back in 1994, and two of my staff attended a recruitment meeting in Birmingham, Alabama. And they advertised themselves as a UFO organization; if you were interested in extraterrestrials, or space travel, or UFO's, to come to this meeting. When you got to the meeting, they were almost apologetic. They realized that they were not going to talk about, really about UFO's very much. It was really all about religion. So even the recruitment techniques, they don't tell you that when you come to the meetings what is expected of you. And the advice that they were giving at that particular meeting was that if you had any kind of inkling that this was true; that if you had a de ja vu experience, or it sounded reasonable or logical or even possible to you, that that was meaning that you were a prepared person being prepared to receive one of these alien spirits, and that you were to leave the meeting right then, go out and get in the van, and drive off, leave all your possessions, your family. That was the kind of commitment they were asking for. But that's not what they tell you up front in the recruitment process. That's not--they don't--certainly don't tell you that you may be having to commit suicide to leave these containers behind. It is a bait and switch, and you slowly get deeper and deeper into the organization. Cults work under this principle: A person can eat an elephant if it's cut up in small enough pieces. So they slowly feed you the doctrines and the beliefs. And slowly you have a world view shift, and your point of authority becomes the leader. At that point if he tells you the Moon is square, you will believe it.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. And we have to leave it there. Ms. Goodstein, Mr. Walker, thank you both very much.

JAMES WALKER: Thank you. FOCUS - MARCH MADNESS

JIM LEHRER: Now the hype and hoopla about the college basketball playoffs. We begin with this report by Kwame Holman.

KWAME HOLMAN: Every March college basketball embarks on an annual feast now known as March Madness--the National Collegiate Athletic Association's championships tournaments for men and women. In the men's division 64 teams are chosen from a field of more than 300. The 64 then are whittled to a single champion over three weeks of what arguably has become the biggest sporting event in the country. The tournament began in 1939 when the University of Oregon beat Ohio State for the first NCAA championship. Over the years upsets and heroics have characterized the tournament. In 1957, the University of North Carolina, a prohibitive underdog, beat Wilt Chamberlain and the Kansas Jayhawks in three overtime to win the championship. In the 1960s and early 70s college basketball had its version of a dynasty. John Wooden and UCLA won 10 championships in 12 years with players like Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton. The 1979 championship matched superstars "Magic" and Larry Bird. It was in 1985 that the tournament expanded to the current 64 teams, offering a chance for smaller, less well-known schools to enter the elite field. That in turn brought interest from a more diverse group of fans nationwide, and the national TV networks saw the opportunity to capture those fans as viewers. In 1991, CBS paid $1 billion for the exclusive rights to broadcast the tournament for five years. Last year the network signed a new deal, paying more than $1.7 billion to air the basketball extravaganza until the year 2002. This year advertisers on CBS will pay an average of $600,000 for a 30-second spot on championship night. The women's version of March Madness draws less money and fewer viewers, but also has grown in popularity. Meanwhile, both tournaments have become fixtures in workplaces nationwide as employees join pools betting on which team will make it to tournament's end. And this year more than 50,000 fans went to cyberspace to enter the CBS Sports Line Pool, vying for prizes for picking winning teams.

SPOKESMAN: People get a little crazy about it. There's games going on all over the country. I love the Superbowl, but I think March Madness is more fun and exciting.

KWAME HOLMAN: This year the end of the rainbow is in Indianapolis, where the champion will be crowned.

ANCHOR: Arizona starts the celebration. They're heading to Indianapolis and the Final Four.

JIM LEHRER: And now for more and to Elizabeth Farnsworth.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: For further diagnosis of this March Madness we turn to Perry Clark, head basketball coach at Tulane University in New Orleans. He took over in 1988 and had the Green Wave in the NCAA Tournament within three years. And John Feinstein, who's followed the Atlantic Coast Basketball Conference closely this season for a new book; he's also the author of, among other works, "A Season on the Brink," about Indiana's Bobby Knight and the 1986 team. John, how do you explain the phenomenon that this tournament has become?

JOHN FEINSTEIN, Author: Well, I think to give you a brief history lesson, there were three seminal events. One was the UCLA dynasty, especially Lew Alcindor, who became Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. That's when network television first got involved in the 1960s. Then the first prime time game on Monday night, Bill Walton, 21 for 22, extraordinary performance, brought it to national attention. And, of course, the Larry Bird/"Magic" Johnson match-up in 1979. From that point on the Final Four became an event that was on a level close to the World Series and the Superbowl. And as television incorporations have poured more money into it throughout the 80s and 90s it's continued to build.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And, Coach, it's incredibly important for colleges, isn't it?

PERRY CLARK, Tulane University Men's Basketball Coach: [Indianapolis] Very much so. And like John said, I really believe the media, the television coverage that it's gotten not just on selection day but all the way through the Final Four has made everybody in the nation aware of March Madness.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What's it like? You took over a team that was basically non-existent. You took it to the NCAA. What was it like to be there?

PERRY CLARK: I tell you, first of all, when your name is selected, it is a tremendous thrill, and then participating in it and being so visible to the whole nation and everybody can kind of see you work, is a very, very special feeling. And as you advance, the pressure of it really builds. When I was an assistant at Georgia Tech and we got to the Final Eight, I can't really explain all the emotions that run through you as you walk through the tunnel to go out on the court. It's just a tremendous emotional feeling.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And Louisiana State beat you in that game, right, and then you went on to the Final Four?

PERRY CLARK: No. In that game Georgetown beat us with Pat Ewing, and, you know, and the thing that happens is I think that you're entitled to be there, and well, next year we'll be back, and we never got back. And I think with age--and John will tell you--you really understand how precious the moments are.

JOHN FEINSTEIN: That's a really interesting point, Elizabeth, because in 1985, Georgia Tech came. Perry and I used to joke that they were still a year away from being the best they could be. And, in fact, the next year they were picked number one in the country pre-season because of what they had done in '85. And the stakes did get higher, and when they lost the game you're referring to, to Louisiana State in a round of 16, all of a sudden Bobby Cremins, who had been a rising star, people started to question him because so much pressure is put on coaches in March to win, and if you look at Roy Williams, this year, at Kansas, as great as his record is, when they lost in the round of 16, people began to question him, why can't he win the "big games," because only in March are they considered big games.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Is it putting too much pressure on the kids, Coach, do you think?

PERRY CLARK: I don't know. I think kids have a very unique way of moving on with their lives. I know it puts a lot of pressure on the coaches because, you know, it's a pride thing. It's something that you work a long time to build for.

JOHN FEINSTEIN: I think, though, the difference is that Roy Williams will have another chance. Bobby Cremins had another chance and did go to the Final Four in 1990. The kids don't get another chance. The seniors on this Kansas team will never play in the Final Four. That's something that they've worked for all their lives. They've seen it on television. They dreamed about it. They practiced alone in the backyard. This is to get to the Final Four, win a national championship, and they'll never get there. I think that's a different kind of pressure. It goes beyond financial because you know those memories, Rick Barnes, the Clemson coach, told his players before they played Minnesota last week, "We're going to remember this game the rest of our lives. Let's go out and give it everything we have." And that's true of all these games. These kids are going to remember it the rest of their lives. The coaches do get another chance.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Coach, do you think the golden age of this tournament has passed because of the fact that the NBA is taking so many of the good players when they're sophomores now?

PERRY CLARK: I really don't. I believe that college basketball has a life of its own, and one of the things that--I think each game becomes bigger than the game before it, and I just think you'll see this weekend in Indianapolis all the excitement, all the attention, and I really think that the kids jumping may hurt the pro game more than it hurts the college game because, you know, the college game is going to continue. We're always going to have fine coaches and good teams.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Why do you think it hurts the pro game?

PERRY CLARK: Because they're taking some kids that really aren't ready, and so, therefore, at some point when Michael steps aside and Ewing steps aside and Barkley and Hakeem and a lot of those guys are close to the end of their careers, you know, who's going to be there? And I think you're going to have a lot of kids that are not ready, nor may they really have the appreciation of the game. Michael Jordan has the appreciation of the game. "Magic" Johnson had an appreciation of the game. I think a lot of these kids see the money, and that's what stimulates them, not the appreciation of the game.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And they're not ready because they weren't in college four years to really kind of get seasoned, is that--

JOHN FEINSTEIN: Well, they didn't learn the game. And we now have high school kids going straight to the NBA without even going to college at all. There's at least two more who are going this year. There were two last year. There was another one the year before, but I think the game gets hurt at all levels because the high school kids aren't thinking in terms of fundamentals. They're thinking in terms of learning how to dunk and make spectacular plays so they'll get a shoe commercial. Allen Iverson, the first pick in the NBA draft last year, said that his lifelong dreamhad been a shoe commercial, not the Final Four, not being a champion, but to have a shoe commercial. I think that hurts the game at the grassroots level. The college game is hurt because we don't have the continuity that we used to have when players would stay at least three and in many cases four years, and as Perry said, I agree with him, the pro game is certainly hurt by this. I think the reason the golden age may have passed to some degree is because I think the Final Four has lost its innocence. It's become about corporate dollars. It's become about TV dollars. The fans at the Final Four aren't the purist basketball fans. They're the bigwig corporate execs who fly out in private jets like the Superbowl and like the World Series, and I think in many ways it was a lot more fun to be at the Final Four in the old days when it wasn't as big an event as it is now. I think Perry has been going to it long enough that he would understand what I'm talking about.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What do you think?

PERRY CLARK: Yes. I tell you I understand what you're saying, but you can't tell me that the Minnesota kids right now and the Kentucky kids right now are affected by any of that. I mean, they right now are in their rooms; they're nervous; they're excited; and that innocence is with those kids, you know, during this week. So what I'm talking about from a social standpoint, from a player's standpoint, I just think the golden age hasn't passed, and that this stage is becoming even more paramount, more important. And when you start October 15th, believe me, every coach in his opening statement to his team talks about getting to the Final Four, whether or not you have a realistic shot or not, that is--that is the goal. And I think that's the kids sacrifice and work so hard for. So I agree with you as far as the people may be sitting in the stands, but when you--when you look at Minnesota and the pep rallies and the excitement, and their being in the Final Four has done to the state and what a great job Slim Haskins has done, I mean, it's a very, very special thing.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And very briefly, before we go, Coach, who do you think is going to win this weekend?

PERRY CLARK: I really like Minnesota. I think that they've had a magical year, and they've gotten a lot of bounces, and Bobby Jackson just doesn't seem to allow them to lose.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: How about you? What do you--who do you think?

JOHN FEINSTEIN: I think it's Dean Smith's year. He became the all-time winningest coast two weeks ago, and I think he wins the championship in what will be a very competitive weekend of basketball because there aren't any great teams. These are all good teams.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Okay. Thank you both.

JIM LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, Shields & O'Beirne, and the search for Jesus. FOCUS - POLITICAL WRAP

JIM LEHRER: Now our Friday night political analysis and to Margaret Warner.

MARGARET WARNER: And we get that analysis from NewsHour regular and syndicated columnist Mark Shields. Paul Gigot is off tonight. In his place is Kate O'Beirne, Washington editor of the "National Review." Welcome both of you. Let's start with Vice President Gore's trip to China this week. How well do you think he handled himself, Mark, and the whole set of issues he had to cope with?

MARK SHIELDS, Syndicated Columnist: Well, the Vice President had a tough assignment. What he had hoped to be and I'm sure his supporters looking forward to the year 2000 and the potential Gore candidacy had hoped to be this, striking out, on the world stage, couldn't have come at a worse time. Besieged with reports about Chinese influence and American politics, going over there to try and explain the American position and not be too tough on human rights but not be namby-pamby, try and stand up on trade, and the Chinese problems in the huge balance, trade deficit, and keeping out American products, and doing even worse things. And the Chinese selling arms, weapon systems to Pakistan and Iran. As far as I could see, it was zero for three on the trip. I mean, I don't think he scored on any of the three.

MARGARET WARNER: How much do you think the whole fund-raising scandal affected him, made it really awkward for him?

KATE O'BEIRNE, National Review: That's the adjective, unfortunately. Awkward is the word most used to described how his trip went in China, and it's not a welcome adjective for Al Gore. But the planning of it was awkward. It was as Mark said an opportunity to show him flying solo as a statesman, and yet there seemed to be an impulse on the part of his staff to have a news blackout. Well, how can we all admire him navigating into international waters, if most of the events are going to be closed to the press? And what people are looking to do with the campaign finance scandal is connect the dots. So he's in a very awkward position. People want--are leaning towards computing the administration's position which is a switch from 1992; they ran criticizing George Bush for coddling dictators in China. Does their switch in position have anything to do, or anything they do with China have anything to do with possible illegal funds coming from the Chinese? And then, boy, did the dictators show themselves to be--have their ruthless reputation well deserved--when they handed him a champagne glass? How ruthless do you get? And there, of course, are photographs that he will--they are bound to come back to haunt him, and while he's in China toasting the butcher of Tiananmen Square--

MARGARET WARNER: You're talking about Li Peng, the premier.

KATE O'BEIRNE: Yes. Yes. And Gore knows better than anybody how easy it is to demagogue on that; they did it to George Bush. Dick Gephardt's in Iowa and New Hampshire at the same time. It was a bad week for Al Gore.

MARGARET WARNER: Are year 2000 politics a sub-text of all this, Mark?

MARK SHIELDS: Sure.

MARGARET WARNER: For China policy.

MARK SHIELDS: Sure, they are, Margaret, and there's no question that the Chinese issue is going to be around a long time. Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York says tonight in an interview today on PBS, on David Frost, that this was an attack by the Chinese upon the American political system, an attempt to subvert the American political system. That's a pretty serious charge from a very respected senior legislator, and I think we're going to get into most favored nation, the question of turning over Hong Kong to the Chinese--we postponed the most favored nation vote until then--Bill Paxon, the Republican leader from upstate New York, past chairman of the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee announced this week he would not support most favored nation for China again. That means that you can see the Republicans trying to take a little political advantage on the squirming and the awkwardness the Democrats are going through, but the Republicans have to answer to their business community and say, green light, go ahead to China, and there's restlessness there on their side. Gary Bauer, the former head of President Reagan's Domestic Policy Council and a leading conservative activist,is teaming up with Gov. Bob Casey, Democratic governor of Pennsylvania. They're going to try and join hands with Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic liberal congresswoman from San Francisco, and Chris Smith, Frank Wolf, Republican Congressmen from Virginia and New Jersey, and try and put together a group opposing the Chinese on their religious intolerance and mistreatment, their human rights abuses. So this issue is going to be there--is going to be from 1997 through the year 2000.

KATE O'BEIRNE: Both sides have, as Mark rightly says, have a really awkward time because pro-family grassroots are now seeing the religious persecution as an issue that they ought to be much more involved in. Many members who are free traders and voted to extend MFN last time now think it's time to "send the Chinese a message and MFN is going to be the vehicle to do that. And on the other side, labor, of course, on the Democratic ranks, are totally opposed to MFN, and Dick Gephardt will oppose it on their behalf, and Al Gore's stuck with the administration position of extending MFN.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now put what Newt Gingrich said and did in China and Hong Kong last night--and he's in China today. And I know we have sketchy reports, but explain what he's saying and put it in context for us, in that political context.

KATE O'BEIRNE: Well, now he's under pressure from his own side. There are--there are vote switchers now. People have supported MFN in the past and think they no longer want to. Newt is also having problems with conservative supporters. So it appears that his intent is to speak out more publicly than Al Gore did about Chinese human rights abuses.

MARGARET WARNER: And that's what he said last night in the speech in Hong Kong.

KATE O'BEIRNE: Exactly. I'm saying it in Hong Kong, and when I meet the leaders in Beijing, I intend to say the same thing. So he clearly will be more public in his--in his condemnation of Chinese behavior which Al Gore didn't do very much of. Now, will it make it easier for him to support MFN when he has spoken out at least right in Beijing criticizing leaders? I assume he hopes it will because he has not announced that his position has changed any on extending MFN.

MARGARET WARNER: Let's go on to Newt Gingrich in other ways, Mark. There were several news reports this week suggesting that now Republican members of the House are beginning to attack him. I mean, how serious a threat do you think he's under to his leadership?

MARK SHIELDS: Well, beginning with, I mean, Congressman Peter King of New York, moderate conservative, blue collar Republican, took to the pages of the "Weekly Standard," a conservative magazine, and said Newt Gingrich is political road kill, that he's a liability, he can't lead, isn't leading, and now we have a report "Human Events," a leading conservative weekly paper, coming out this week with a report of 40 Republicans restless in the ranks, ready to have a vote of confidence on Newt. It's tough. I mean, a leader in order to be an effective leader has to either be loved, ideally both, loved or feared, and right now in terms of this kind of action, it's pretty indicative that nobody is afraid of Newt Gingrich, and that there's very little perceived political downside in opposing, criticizing, or even publicly denouncing him.

MARGARET WARNER: Kate, these are, most of these members stuck by him in the whole ethics scandal. What has happened to flip it around?

KATE O'BEIRNE: Well, I think they'll explain themselves, and Mark's right, there's a lot of dissatisfaction. They felt that the ethics against Newt was a partisan attack, they really didn't see any merit to those charges; they did stick by him.

MARGARET WARNER: So they circled the wagons then.

KATE O'BEIRNE: Absolutely. You know, why let David Bonior throw these phony charges, you know, 75 out of 77 have been dismissed; you know, we can't let this happen. It's a terrible precedent. Now what Peter King points out is there are issues that are more important to Newt Gingrich that it appears Newt Gingrich was not willing to fight for, and he highlights race and gender--raising gender preferences, defunding the NEA. Tax cuts was a major strategic gaff of Newt Gingrich, giving the impression that he was willing to put aside tax cuts. So these more conservative members are now say, hey, wait a minute, Newt, when we re-elected him in January, promised to fight for this agenda that got us here in the first place. There's some evidence now they think that he's backing off on the agenda, and that's raising questions as to why he ought to be Speaker.

MARK SHIELDS: Just one other point of dissatisfaction, I think. Newt Gingrich had insisted all the way through he was--the ethics charges, he would rout them, he would actually, well, put his accusers and his critics, it embarrassed 'em--and what did he end up doing? He ended up saying nolo contender and a $300,000 fine, and a lot of people who walked up and stood with him feel, you know, from that point forward, they felt they'd been let down.

MARGARET WARNER: But replacing a Speaker's tough.

MARK SHIELDS: It's very tough, and it's awfully tough when you don't have a logical heir. I mean, Jim Wright, when he was in trouble in 1989 had the great disadvantage of having Tom Foley, a very popular consensus figure, as his heir apparent. And that made it a lot easier for the Democrats to move to Foley as a replacement. There is not a natural consensus successor, in my judgment, to Newt Gingrich at this point, which serves Gingrich's purposes.

KATE O'BEIRNE: You have to consider Dick Armey, the Majority Leader, No. 2 in the House, the front-runner, but as more talk about the notion that Newt Gingrich might not survive this Congress surfaces, I assume there will be a lot of discussions to try to figure out whether or not they can rally around somebody. I think it's safe to say the clock is ticking. I don't think Newt Gingrich can afford too many more gaffs--that--that dispirited base.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Well, thank you both very much, Kate and Mark. Happy Easter! FOCUS - RETHINKING JESUS

JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight a Good Friday look at a report on the historical search for Jesus. The reporter is Richard Ostling of "Time" Magazine.

RICHARD OSTLING, Time Magazine: [jazz music in background] New Orleans is the birthplace of jazz in a lively town night and day. But there was a different sort of excitement when thousands of religion scholars held their annual meeting.

SPOKESMAN: The crowd loves this stuff and clamors for more. We can do without the low blows. We can learn to be more courteous and collegial, but basically this is good, clean fun.

RICHARD OSTLING: The fight and the fun concern one of the hottest topics among religion experts. What do we know about the Jesus of history? It's no ordinary academic dispute because the words and deeds of Jesus are the basis of the Christian faith. Since the 19th century various scholars have raised questions about the historical accuracy of accounts in the four New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But the debate has lately become a public spectacle due mostly to a group called the Jesus Seminar.

SPOKESMAN: I've been looking for types of things that seem to me to be the characteristic of parables, aphorisms, and dialogues.

RICHARD OSTLING: This group of several dozen scholars is gathered twice a year to vote on the validity of each incident in the gospel, choosing colored beads to represent different levels of authenticity. For example, in the Lord's Prayer, they think "Our Father" were the only words Jesus clearly spoke Himself. The rest is judged, probable, unlikely, or totally ruled out. Shocking many grassroots Christians the Seminar claims that at least 60 percent of the recorded words of Jesus were not His own but were created later on to express the faith of the Christian Church. Later this year they will report that many of the events in Jesus's life weren't actual history either. The Seminar is not just trying to persuade other scholars but members are also taking their message to the people. Recently, Professor Marcus Borg preached and taught at Great St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Tucson. Borg, an Episcopalian married to a member of the clergy, is deluged with such invitations.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG, Oregon State University: How we think of Jesus very much affects what we think the Christian mind is most centrally about.

RICHARD OSTLING: Borg says his childhood image of Jesus as what he calls a divine super hero has been replaced by a different Jesus and a new image of Christianity.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG: I have learned that the message of Jesus was not about requirements, not about here is what you must do or believe in order to go to heaven, but it was about entering into a relationship with God now in the present.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG: I see him as a Jewish mystic, a wisdom teacher, and a social prophet. And for me as a Christian what Jesus was like as a figure of history is a powerful testimony to the reality of the sacred or the reality of God.

RICHARD OSTLING: He insists the stories and the gospels can be profoundly true as symbols or metaphors, even though they're not historical.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG: Being a Christian doesn't mean that one has to believe that Jesus really walked on the water, or really multiplied loaves, and so forth. And I think that a literalistic approach to scripture has in the minds of many Christians become a major obstacle. I think I would be willing to say that the teaching of Jesus makes profound religious sense to me, whether Jesus said it or not.

RICHARD OSTLING: John Bret-Harte, a newspaper man and member of Great St. Paul says he was once troubled by historical contradictions in the gospel. He no longer relies on the literal truth of the accounts but his spiritual experience.

JOHN BRET-HARTE: Faith doesn't need documents because you don't know your faith in your head; you know your faith in your heart; and my heart is completely satisfied. It's difficult to explain because we're all--we always think of real things, "real things," as being things you can hit against or you can walk on, a floor or window you look out of. Something that's quantifiable. And this is not quantifiable experience, I think. But it's nonetheless real.

RICHARD OSTLING: But the new thinking is troubling to some parishioners Borg meets.

PARISHIONER: It remains important to me, again, that I believe that Jesus was the son of God. I believe in the corporal resurrection. What does your work have to say to someone like me? And, furthermore, when I come away from talking to someone that finds your work helpful and interesting, and I find it helpful and interesting but not quite as important as they do, I come away feeling small.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG: I'll simply say that I think given my understanding of Christianity there's all the room in the world for disagreement about whether the resurrection of Jesus involved something happening to his corpse, and things like that. I grew up in a tradition which stressed correct belief, and I now see it's not about correct belief it all. It's about, you know, being in relationship to that to which all this stuff points.

N. T. WRIGHT, Dean, Lichfield Cathedral: When God became human, he really became human--and if he became human, that means he belongs in history.

RICHARD OSTLING: N. T. Wright, like Borg, belongs to the Anglican branch of Christianity. A cathedral dean in England he comes to the U.S. to defend the traditional views, running all day seminars across the country.

SPOKESMAN: If they don't believe in a Christ who really did come and, you know, in human form and die for their sins and rise from the dead and offer salvation, what are they basing as their hope?

N. T. WRIGHT: That would be very difficult to say because a lot of those scholars keep their own personal cards quite close to their chest.

RICHARD OSTLING: Unlike Borg, Wright believes the Jesus of history was, indeed, the Messiah.

N. T. WRIGHT: When I look at Jesus, I'm looking at the living God, the Creator of the universe. That is, of course, a huge idea. But in the New Testament what we see is not a high and mighty God striding through the world this way and that but a young Jewish prophet riding into Jerusalem on a donkey in tears, announcing God's judgment on the city, having a last meal with his friends, going off to give his life for the life of the world, and believing that in so doing he is embodying the living and loving God. And it's as I look at that face that I believe I am looking at the human face of God.

RICHARD OSTLING: Wright contends that the Jesus Seminar artificially strips Jesus's sayings away from the context of his life, thus distorting both what He said and who He was.

N. T. WRIGHT: It is an anti-apocalyptic Jew, a character who sits in the marketplace swapping aphorisms, teasing people into thinking differently about their lives, a Jesus who doesn't think anything dramatic is going to happen or is going to occur.

RICHARD OSTLING: One Episcopalian at Wright's class, retired Wyoming high school teacher Norma Christiansen, worries that the Jesus Seminar waters down the Bible and has a negative impact.

NORMA CHRISTIANSEN: The Bible is real. The things did happen, and I think that you're--you're removing a, the lynchpin, if you will, if you take that away. And it's going to destroy people's faith. They're going to say, well, why am I believing this, there's nothing, you know, and then they'll just leave altogether.

RICHARD OSTLING: Wright and Borg are friendly, but their disagreement over the bodily resurrection of Jesus is fundamental and profound. Borg sees it as symbolic of a spiritual experience of the early Church. Wright thinks it literally happened.

N. T. WRIGHT: I think the resurrection of Jesus really happened, but I have no idea if it involves anything happening to his corpse, and, therefore, I have no idea whether it involves an empty tomb, and for me, that doesn't matter because the central meaning of the Easter experience or the resurrection of Jesus is that His followers continue to experience Him as a living reality, a living presence after His death. So I would have no problem whatsoever with archaeologists finding the corpse of Jesus. For me that would not be a discrediting of the Christian faith or the Christian tradition.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG: All the early sources from quite different angles, they all describe as best they can something very strange involving the transformation into a new mode of physicality. I actually can't understand as a historian why the early Church got going and took the shape it did, unless I say that sometime reasonably soon after his death, Jesus of Nazareth was alive again in a new mode of physicality, which transforms, not just resuscitating or abandoning his physical body.

RICHARD OSTLING: Borg says that even without the traditional Easter, the heart of the Christian message remains intact.

PROFESSOR MARCUS BORG: If you wanted to tell a story about how besotted God is with us, one way you can tell that story that God was willing to give up that which was most precious to God, namely God's only son, for our sake. And so it becomes a story of the divine lover pursuing us as the beloved of God.

RICHARD OSTLING: [music in background] Despite their disagreements, Borg and Wright both believe Jesus is a living presence in history and today and that it's remarkable any person is being talked about with such urgency 2000 years after He lived, not only during the Easter season but throughout the year. RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Friday, authorities in California identified 66-year-old Marshall Applewhite as the leader of the Heaven's Gate cult. He was among 39 people found dead Wednesday in mansion near San Diego. And Robert Pinsky was named Poet Laureate of the United States. He will serve in that post for two years. A clarification before we go: Earlier in the program tonight when John Feinstein predicted Dean Smith would win the Final Four, he met North Carolina, the team Smith Coaches. We'll see you on-line and again here Monday evening. Have a nice weekend. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.