The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Gay Political Rights

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the case before good evening mr cox the new mayor of new york has created a small storm in his first week in office prodded by reporters about a campaign pledge the former congressman announced that he would soon issue an order to ban discrimination against homosexuals in city employment attempts to pass a so called gay rights ordinance had been defeated several times in new york in recent years the mayor's promises brought strong negative reactions from some police and firemen there's talk of a referendum to fight the directive and this controversy however new york city is behind the times tonight a look at just how far sexual preference has become a civil right jim robin there are already more than forty cities and towns in the united states with some kind of formal ban on discrimination against

homosexuals the others are spotted all over the country and twenty different states in the district of columbia and range in minneapolis seattle and los angeles the smaller places like aspen colorado sunnyvale calif and yellow springs ohio there are tents and several of those municipalities to repeal such ordinances well the most active repeal moments are in eugene oregon wichita kansas and st paul minnesota most are patterned after the widely publicized and successful repeal effort mounted by singer and even arrived in miami last year robin one of the people leading the resistance in new york to the employment of days at least in his city agency is send amelia president of the policeman's benevolent association mr demille and you do not want the mayor to issue a directive that would result in the hiring of days in the new york city police force well it's not exactly that what i say is that as long as there is a law on the books and there

is a law that the active homosexuality ydstie thing that they do that causes the problem and it is a crime sodomy is a crime in my way looking at it as long as that on the books i must uphold the law as a police officer for over twenty one years i see anything i know yours and saddam is a crime in new york state that's right thoughts on the laws of new york state and do you believe or what do you believe that the hiring own foreign minister chosen by the new york city police force would do to the police force well i look at it this way the overt homosexuals would be a problem if they do not get public support as a police officer can you picture a an overt homosexual with lipstick on the chinese press and i was out on patrol and they are

saying a few things that i think he would not get the respect of the public and it would make his job very difficult which means that there would be other policemen doing much more work initiative did you seriously believe i'll comment on reality that if their work on the searchers and the police force that they would go on patrol in a huge crime i idea i know of homosexuals who are overweight homosexuals there are homosexuals that you'd never no one from the other but to the over it would be the problem and if you say it's open for everyone it would be a problem so most actually does not appear what does not give the appearance i don't think anybody would not a difference you and i would meet at a problem that would come up finally i would say if the law is changed and a lot of it i don't know right alongside him in the state i say do you or an investment to do new

york policemen arrest people on suspicion of sodomy it isn't says asian you have to it has sort of a yes yes they have historically forces the war was killing force of course jose sayed says it's not a thing that's done it open what do you object to this point because of its possible repercussions only on the police force are you against it for other city agencies as well well it only have to local policemen i have no other problems with the other agencies the home please papa i look at the morale factory at the potential problems that would be created by it i just don't believe that this is a job for them but let's let's face it if the law was unchanged in the us comes in that they must accept a un officials that we've got my mother ship repair or come

back proponents of gay rights who were actively campaigning to further gay rights want more than just executive directors by mayors of cities robert livingston was the founder member of the national gay task force he also serves on the new york city human rights commission mr livingston do you believe that hiring gays if a male directive result of that in new york would have the adverse affect veterans didn't you just described well obviously i don't not every gay person is qualified to serve the police officer not every parent's actual person is qualified to serve as a police officer and i think that quite honestly ms demille is taking the extreme of the gay population and one might say that one would not want an alcoholic they're heterosexual on the police department one would not want a mentally unstable heterosexual police department i think that the police department is entitled

to have its physical qualifications of metal qualifications and the thing i think we are entitled to do is to have the right if we pass the examinations if we qualify physically and for uprooting mentally stable otherwise to have what we do in the privacy of our bedroom it's not the disqualification from holding any city position where is your reaction to the harrison little point that mr demille a mix that suddenly would sometimes homosexuals may practice is an offense under new york law sodomy is an offense against new york law sodomy as defined by the law in the state of new york is any contact which is other than their male genital to female genital i would suggest that there are many members of the police department now who have the oral genital contact with their wives

and we've moved past the nineteenth century definition would say because there are many and where there are many sodden the rest i think we will agree which are between heterosexuals sellers say you do not think that that would disqualify homosexuals male homosexuals or female homosexuals from serving anymore anymore then disqualifies male or female heterosexual or can we won't miss out mr livingston a bit do you believe that beyond city ordinances there is action needed by let's start with the state legislature of new york yes and there is no god there is implicit discrimination written in the law on the law of the city of new york the media were there because i know at best for beards discrimination on the basis of race color religion sex country of national mourning origin age a marital status in jobs

housing and public accommodation public accommodation means hotels restaurants bowling alleys this is the possible and it happens that a black woman who could not by law otherwise be denied housing is in fact denied housing if she is discovered to be a lesbian it is against the law in this city to you may advertise as an equal opportunity employer but you made perfectly legally say no days a lot listen so you won't see the law amended to extend the protection of civil rights legislation at this level to include homosexuals were too and had to include at a sentence which says that sexual orientation will not be a factor in jobs hasn't been presumably therefore you also support the amendment which mr koch when he was still a congressmen proposed to the national survey of nineteen sixty four i believe is

what do you believe that the carter administration should be doing about the us or canada ministrations and his stance i will address us after this has been a remarkably helpful we did not feel threatened she would agree that getting a law through congress would be easy and it's going to take some time the administration has been very open in receiving us how we have made enormous progress in some other government agencies fortune she was a mystique about perceptions the immigration and naturalization apartment military and justice department and we've continued to progress with her or pursue that moment moment to go to one of the cities that jim mentioned san francisco which has become something of a mecca for gay rights and gay political power charlayne hunter gault is in san francisco or german robin today's fiscal maintained its preeminent in this area by flaring in its first professed homosexual as an elected official harvey milk took office as a member of the board of supervisors the governing body of the city and the county

have a practical matter for the faith at five years then from people with a lot of the regulations prohibiting such discrimination in employment that includes city officials firemen teachers and the police michael o'toole with a public affairs officer with the fan for fiscal police department mr o'toole mr demille and new york has talked about his concerns the problems of over homosexuals being policeman what has been your experience with homosexuals in the police to find out here at the prison time we don't have any protest homosexuals with the police department sentences got the words out of the closet homosexuals a view of art the present time again we do not discriminate against them our body and the problem that we have right now is were worth cell service here and our next examination will not be coming for at least another year or so it appears at this point it'll probably until that time before we really do have what do you classify and out front on sexual attempting to

gain entry to the parliament when they know that you mentioned with the will serve with what throw the ringer mlb well basically it's a matter that in san francisco are they administer the testing procedures and they give a test once every four years so in other words sent at the present time we do not have any admitted homosexuals in the police department it's my assumption that and then the future imbue when we will test the yet the theory that homosexuals can do the head of the police job and seven sisko oh so you mean only a matter of taking a written test that will determine whether the home essential becomes a policeman or the physical test them on the web it's actually a combination of written test of physical test the middle of one minister by a doctor and that another physical agility tests which is going to see that the the body coronation the physical strength is sufficient to meet the requirements for the jobs so that's the only thing as i say i've the issue of sacks

the issue of race in the issue of sexual orientation is not all raced at any point and the us are testing procedure that matter but something that would be really come into our selection process right well mr demille in new york has raised the question of fatah me of being illegal in most states are and therefore a policeman being a coup possibly accra considered a criminal how would you do that out here all it's not illegal in california in the state a california bar sexual acts to take place in private between consenting adults are not illegal in california so in other words the the question of the illegality and the situation really doesn't there concern itself was well i if i understand it out here you have a half on call affection was to us who were interested in becoming policeman already in the police department to declare themselves is that true well it came to me needing a luncheon meeting that she again

attended a while back when one of the speakers in the audience rose to ask the cheaper they are aware that there were already homosexual and the police department and i as it turns out there was rumored that affecting the chief in response to that stated that if that were the case if there were individual sections of the police department to come out of the closet announce himself to show that they can get a police officer so we took him up on the offer so the assumption is that if there are any of the police department are not willing to come forward at this time so frontman know admitted sexual so this time ok mr demille i'm mr oates will end the police department here doesn't think of me as concerned about this matter as you are how are you with aren't aware of that well as he just admitted that there is no no no conflict with the law in california there is a conflict with the law in new york state conflict were removed i think he probably the early with

having hearing problem here but about halfway through it would be a possibility of with it i will definitely do you have any that rhymes or suggested that you could make in this regard for police departments like new york and theater of wrestling with this problem a minute they've happened here that doesn't make you optimistic that it could work other places well i know when a priest supposed to tell me or how to run in the state or the city or its police department of the environment in san francisco is conducive to this type of the operational we are and we have a very strong politically active gay community the laws are prepared to walk to handle it so i think that the environment and in california this past the civilian violence and cisco that is reading i'm back in your neon thicket of it we have to move rail line here that

jam i let go of the federal level as robin said a moment ago on a member of congress new york mayor koch introduced a bill last year that would extend the protection of the civil rights act to include sexual preference homosexuals in other words the legislation and go anywhere and as yet no other member of congress to step forward to pursue the issue and russia's absence the only other action at the federal level was strictly on of an informal variety back in last march when one a president's top assistants that stanza not the three r's were gay rights activist delegation at the white house and that was the need for muslims to mention just a moment ago there's concerns are what did the delegation want the administration to do what they wanted was a meeting to discuss the alleged discrimination on by government against homosexuals they never discussed the issue of homosexuality itself i think that's one of things that i don't hear the conversations to my fact of the matter is that

you can it's not a discussion of whether homosexuality is right or wrong but indeed whether or not people who are helped select this government to help pay for this government have a right to practice without being discriminated against and that's what they discussed or i want to be in in specific terms were you on the program well what they wanted was to discuss the possibility of having meetings with agencies art from weights this discrimination was coming and some of the issues that were raised were going down every day you can come through the ports of the united states without any question without any problem but if your run of the mill gay you have the difficulty of getting into the united states made a now famous first person they can be in any of the professions that highlight the face every

day did you did you do it then about what the complex than that there were many many issues that were raised in that three hour meeting and from that meeting have come on the mini was asked for by the national defense force and they i have set up all of the meetings that have been held since then with the different agencies there was one with immigration and naturalization there was one with the civil rights commission and there are other meetings on which they are preparing to make progress well do i mean again we're getting out here is that they make are they making progress with the full backing of the white house i mean had you pass the word to the park and just as diverse department whatever i like knock it off actually now you have not heard by any other place that has come there are so many special interest groups to come into the white house and pick up the phone every time a group comes into the white house and say to an agency enacted offered this is what they want to do it

the way we operate mine was to provide the opportunity for the first time in history for people to come and say hey this is our government and we don't like being discriminated against these are the issues we wanted to raise the examples of discrimination which we saw for its part of the oppression having made their own choices what we do is we have done for every other special interest groups to set up a meeting for them and they present their own place do you feel that they should be protected from discrimination by federal law as other as other minority the racial minorities are i don't think that any human being in this nation should be deprived the right to human dignity and i don't i'm particularly on our relate to just gaze with that attitude i think that every human being in this nation has a right to human dignity and i think that part of the oppression of sexual effect that

it's not a matter under any kind of legislation that provides a position of affirmative action or quotas it's not that at all if people who have jobs but don't because they are gay lord you think there should be a total oh yes of course president i've never discussed this issue with the press and i as a matter fact its own no one in washington on any level whether it be from the agency off on within the white house itself and said to me hey this is a problem we want to address nor have they said this is not a problem we want to address iowa because of this is sensitive issue politically for the president and i think it is that i think it's also very sensitive for him personally welcome espn's coverage of almost drove to other substances go do you think that how the federal law that would prevent discrimination against gays with it had any effect inside gaza's go with israel for martins is out near city well i was in san francisco and just

reaffirm our present position it's a situation where we right now have our policy a non discriminatory policy i mean why should homosexuals as well as anybody else in san francisco the policy has been in effect in sanford says the police department and in the city assessor's go for a number of years at the present time my knowledge we've yet to experience any problem and i would venture to say we would do nothing more than continue on as we have whether a federal law existed or not do what your viola federal on the service was necessary oh i think there would have to be the federal or state that would have to be changed to make it legal the words of a federal law huge earlier on federal law was passed you think as long as saddam he remains illegal in and the state of dr ernesto gonna be the same problem to mention before not want a federal law says sri i don't know i think if the federal law would supersede state law i believe that the federal or

state law would do the job might say right now is it illegal and that's the way i have to look at on the other side of this is jim reported earlier there has been a tremendous divisions mr livingston there has been a trend that's going on right now in a number of cities to try and repeal gay rights ordinance is somewhat analogous to those states which ratified the equal rights amendment and then there was a move to a repeal rescind the ratification for instance in eugene oregon in wichita kansas st paul minnesota but of course the campaign that led to the referendum in miami do you feel mr levinson that there may be something of a backlash going on i think is going on but for that to be a backlash i don't think that the movement and civil rights in any area has always moved inexorably forward and i think that there are people who are good decent people of conscience who have very

strong moral feelings against the practice of homosexuality ah i however do not feel that anyone's civil rights and particularly in minority groups civil rights ought to be put up to the majority to vote on my suspicion is that had we done the same thing in selma alabama in the sixties where blacks would not enjoy the same rights they do now i believe that somebody will correctly no doubt if i'm wrong that the courts that have refused to allow legislatures which have already passed the equal rights amendment from proceeding to attempt to rescind and i think this is a very very dangerous practice not only for gays but freddie literally for the constitutional well for such a slightly different issues and i shouldn't raised because it is a

constitutional amendment and not not just ordinances zaun armed with an image you feel is a bit of a backlash when there has been obviously an increase in gay rights in there and acceptance of them i do feel around the world that have the kind of backlash from that unusual for perspective when your kid says made more aware of today than it was five years ago or ten years ago and no does that making more aware of create be a negative feelings but i would say so yes it's very interesting really for example nbc news last friday night i think did a year kahneman man in the street a series of interviews are four segments of the new show and they interviewed sixteen people on the corner fifty seven straight and for thirteen fourteen and sixteen are we're in favor of the mayor's executive order

newsday i did a poll among their readers which was published last friday in which sixty one percent of the people polled i said that they would have no adverse ruling to a politician who was a homosexual think attitudes are changing and i think that's terribly important that we move we are moving forward now be moving forward as fast as i would like but certainly attitudes change ms cohen stands in washington to follow up in gyms question is is the sense of a political issue we are at the very beginning of the congressional election year did you do your sense from your perspective that this is that there is a sense a backlash on the us or the state the year expansion as it were an acceptance of gay rights is gathering momentum which reduces well first of all the fact that it is now visible issue that people discuss the fact that it is an issue that warrants are the kind of backlash that you're making reference to make it an issue that certainly has come of

age i knew would not and you would just not have a half an hour show you are tonight devoted to me are gay rights issues high even though it is an issue in new york five years ago and now you are openly talking about gay rights legislation what does that all mean in new york city is it right is it wrong i think that in itself says something i think that sure any issue that brings about social change is going to bring about art the visibility of those who do not approve i have to leave them his concerns for dryness assuming the merger maron thank you mr arturo in sentences turned in a german solver tonight <unk> about tomorrow night and robert macneil and

ages of the fighters' faith send one dollar to the macneil lehrer for august three four five new york one of the only one on the macneil lehrer report was produced by wnet and wu ga they are solely responsible for its content funding for this program has been provided by the station and other public television stations and bike grant excellent cooperation allied chemical corporation and the corporation for public broadcasting entities just ha ha ha ha euro move

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