The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Thursday, the bodies of the 47 Navy men killed on the U.S.S. Iowa were returned to the United States. The jury in the Oliver North trial began its deliberations, and PLO Leader Yasser Arafat said he would accept elections in the occupied territories if they are part of a package deal. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: After the News Summary, Jim Lehrer's extended News Maker interview with Yasser Arafat, leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization recorded in Tunis, then Nina Totenberg describes the judge's charge to the jury in the Oliver North trial. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: The bodies of the U.S.S. Iowa dead were flown home today. They arrived late this afternoon at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. The 47 U.S. Navy men died in an explosion inside a 16- inch gun turret off the Coast of Puerto Rico. Pentagon officials said there was still no definite word on what caused the explosion. In Puerto Rico, a Vice Admiral who was on board the ship when the accident occurred spoke to reporters.

ADM. JEROME JOHNSON, U.S. Navy: We can say that the team was qualified who was operating the guns, that they had undergone a rigorous training program, that in the past they had recently undergone inspections. The ship had fired thousands of rounds of 16-inch ammunition. This is the first incident of this kind that had we experienced and naturally, it is a great tragedy for the Navy, so we want a thorough investigation to get to the bottom of the circumstances.

MR. LEHRER: Some of the 47 killed have yet to be identified because their bodies were burned beyond recognition. That identification work will now be done at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology at Dover. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: The fate of Oliver North now rests with the jury. After a 10-week trial, the jury retired to consider the 12 criminal charges against the former Marine officer who was an aide in President Reagan's National Security Council. In his charge to the jury, Judge Gerhard Gesell narrowly defined North's primary defense plea that he acted under orders. Gesell said neither the President nor any of the defendant's superiors had legal authority to order anyone to violate the law. The judge's instructions were delayed after a report that several jurors might have given misleading answers in pretrial questions. President Bush said today that he had a clear conscience about his own involvement in the Iran-Contra scandal. He was commenting to reporters about documents in the North trial which revealed that Mr. Bush was an envoy to get Honduras to help the Contras in exchange for greater U.S. aid.

PRESIDENT BUSH: I went to Honduras, sure. That was a matter of public record.

REPORTER: Did you give a quid pro quo deal?

PRESIDENT BUSH: I've told you that I am not going to discuss that until the trial with North is over.

REPORTER: But the jury is being sequestered today, sir.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, then I might have something to say on it when the trial is over, but I would simply ask you to understand that this is the request of the lawyers and I'm not going to do something that inadvertently will -- to put it this way, my conscience is clear.

MR. MacNeil: The President also pledged to work with Congress on any renewed requests for documents on the Iran-Contra matter.

MR. LEHRER: Yasser Arafat is ready to accept the Israeli proposal for elections in the occupied territories, but only if they are part of a package deal and done under international supervision. The Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization spoke in a Newshour interview taped Tuesday in Tunis, Tunisia.

YASSER ARAFAT, Chairman, PLO: We have a bad experience in the past from this election. In spite of that, if they are insisting to have this election, okay, but not under their auspices.

MR. LEHRER: So if the United Nations or some international group --

MR. ARAFAT: Under United Nations' auspices, why not? But definite not under, not under the occupiers' supervision and under the Israeli auspices.

MR. LEHRER: But what would the Israelis have to do, I mean, pull out completely before you would agree to the election?

MR. ARAFAT: You see. If this can be accepted, we can have a schedule. Definite, I know that they will not move in a second. But we can have a schedule for the whole operation from A to Z.

MR. LEHRER: A --

MR. ARAFAT: A package deal.

MR. LEHRER: Package deal.

MR. ARAFAT: Yes. I accept.

MR. LEHRER: We will have the full interview right after the News Summary. King Hussein of Jordan in Washington today voiced similar thoughts about the elections, telling reporters they could be an element in a comprehensive solution to the Middle East problem.

MR. MacNeil: NATO defense ministers today shied away from a firm decision to upgrade the surface to surface nuclear Lance missiles. The upgrading favored by the United States and Britain is unpopular in Europe, particularly in Germany. U.S. Defense Sec. Dick Cheney making his debut at NATO said he was satisfied with a communique saying the alliance would up upgrade where necessary. Cheney said he thought that was enough to get money from Congress to develop a new generation of missiles to replace the Lance, which was introduced in 1972. The Soviets said today they had abandoned plans to build further nuclear reactors at Chernobyl. The government said people in several villages in Western Russia were still being exposed to high levels of radiation three years after the Chernobyl reactor explosion. The announcement by the Bureau for Fuel and Energy also said that plans to build two more power stations in the Cities of Korsque and Smolensk were being curtailed.

MR. LEHRER: Back in this country, new tests showed unhealthy levels of radon gas in many of the nation's school rooms. The Environmental Protection Agency tested 130 schools. 54 percent had rooms with dangerous levels of radon, which is an odorless and colorless cancer causing gas. It is the result of natural radioactive decay in the ground. In a Washington speech, EPA Administrator William Reilly called for corrective action.

WILLIAM REILLY, EPA Administrator: Based on measurements taken in 3,000 school rooms, in 16 states, it appears that elevated levels of radon gas will be found in schools throughout the United States. This finding is particularly troublesome because of the nature of the radon risk and the potential vulnerability of children exposed to it. Therefore, I am recommending that schools nationwide be tested for radon and that schools prepare to take remedial action based on the levels of radon found.

MR. LEHRER: Last September, the EPA urged Americans to test for radon in their homes, after random testing showed unhealthy levels in one out of four houses.

MR. MacNeil: Finally in the news, NASA scientists report that a huge asteroid, traveling at immensespeeds had a close call with earth late last month. The asteroid, a massive rock half a mile wide, passed within half a million miles of earth on March 23rd. If it had struck, it would have had the effect of 40,000 hydrogen bombs. Such objects have hit the earth before in prehistoric times in Ghana and the Soviet Union, an event that probably happens every five to twenty million years. That's it for the News Summary. Still ahead, PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and the North case goes to the jury. NEWS MAKER

MR. LEHRER: An interview with Yasser Arafat is first tonight. It is the first the Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization has granted since Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir offered his plan for elections in the occupied territories. We spoke with Arafat Tuesday in Tunis, the capital City of Tunisia in North Africa.

MR. LEHRER: Tunis is where PLO headquarters have been since the Israelis drove the PLO out of Beirut in 1982. Arafat does not spend that much time in Tunis, himself, but he was there last weekend for a special reason, to mark the anniversary of the assassination of Aboud Jehad. Jehad was the military commander of the PLO and the man considered the most responsible for coordinating the uprising on the West Bank and Gaza. He was murdered by a commando team at his villa in a Tunis suburb. Sunday Arafat and Jehad's widow spoke at a commemorative rally in Tunis that was marked by emotion and heavy security. Our interview came two days later, after a series of delays and "almosts". It happened inside a well guarded, unmarked house sometimes used by Arafat as an office.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Chairman, welcome. The uprising continues in the occupied territories. Seldom a day goes by that young Palestinians do not die. How long can it continue like this?

YASSER ARAFAT, Chairman, PLO: Nobody can escape from his destiny. We are facing the occupation. We are facing oppression, so we have no other alternative but to resist against this occupation and this oppression from the Israeli army, from the army settlers, and this is a decision taken by, not only by the leadership, from the small children to the leadership, to continue resisting against this Israeli occupation.

MR. LEHRER: Thus far they have not used arms. Is that possible that they are going to?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes. They could now. You know, this is a decision taken by myself and accepted in our leadership and we are completely satisfied that this had been accepted and followed strictly by our masses and our people. We said no using for arms in our intefada.

MR. LEHRER: Has there been any recent change in that?

MR. ARAFAT: No. No.

MR. LEHRER: Have the people in the territories said to you, please let us use arms, we must fight back?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes, yes, yes, yes, some of them.

MR. LEHRER: And what do you say?

MR. ARAFAT: We said no. We have decided -- we had decided from the beginning not to using arms in our intefada.

MR. LEHRER: And they will never be used?

MR. ARAFAT: They now, they are using, they are following strictly what we have decided.

MR. LEHRER: Prime Minister Shamir's proposal that he took to --

MR. ARAFAT: Mr. No -- not Mr. Shamir, Mr. No.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Shamir, all right.

MR. ARAFAT: Mr. No, Mr. No. Does not -- it is not me who mentioned that name, the French TV.

MR. LEHRER: They call him "Mr. No"? Look. He has -- he took a proposal to Washington, as you know, for a way to what he called get the road to peace started and to stop the uprising in exchange for some elections. You have rejected that approach.

MR. ARAFAT: Election for what? Give me one example that to choose the delegation for negotiations we have to go to the election. Where it has happened? With the Israelis in '48? They had their election after approximately two years, twenty/twenty-one months. Where? In Namibia, in Capugia? The election can be taken later on for the shape, for the formula of -- for exercising our self- determination, but to form a delegation only for negotiations okay, we can accept it, the challenge, okay, but not under their auspices. The occupiers, they are the occupiers, they are the oppressors. We accept any kind of election -- municipality election, because no other formula for West Bank for municipality election, we have done it. What was the result? All those who had been elected, some of them have been killed. Some of them have been exploded within their cars, within their houses. Some of them have been deported from our homeland. Some of them have been dismissed from their posts. So we have a very bad experience in the past from these elections. In spite of that, if they are insisting to have this election, okay, but not under their auspices.

MR. LEHRER: So if the United Nations or some international group came --

MR. ARAFAT: Under United Nations auspices, why not? But definite not under the occupiers' supervision and the Israeli auspices.

MR. LEHRER: But what would the Israelis have to do, I mean, pull out completely before you would agree to the election?

MR. ARAFAT: You see, if this can be accepted, we can have a schedule. Definite, I know that they will not move instantly. But we can have a schedule for the whole operation from A to Z.

MR. LEHRER: A --

MR. ARAFAT: A package deal.

MR. LEHRER: A package deal?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes. I accept.

MR. LEHRER: Have you transmitted this information to --

MR. ARAFAT: No.

MR. LEHRER: No?

MR. ARAFAT: You can tell President Bush of --

MR. LEHRER: Maybe there will be --

MR. ARAFAT: -- the package deal from A to Z.

MR. LEHRER: Okay. What's Z?

MR. ARAFAT: As His Excellency had mentioned.

MR. LEHRER: His what?

MR. ARAFAT: It is the end of the Israeli occupation.

MR. LEHRER: The end of the Israeli occupation.

MR. ARAFAT: The implementation of the United Nations resolutions. We are not asking for the moon.

MR. LEHRER: So if it's a part of a package deal, you would agree to the elections if they are under UN supervision, and then those negotiators would then negotiate on the behalf of the Palestinians, correct?

MR. ARAFAT: No, no, no, no.

MR. LEHRER: All right.

MR. ARAFAT: No, No. Not like that.

MR. LEHRER: All right.

MR. ARAFAT: The election not follow the negotiations. The election is a part of the exercising of our people for their self- determination.

MR. LEHRER: Okay. But you would be willing to negotiate the nature of the elections, is that right?

MR. ARAFAT: The election is a part of the whole processes.

MR. LEHRER: The whole process, I see. As you know, Prime Minister Shamir has said the reason --

MR. ARAFAT: "Mr. No".

MR. LEHRER: "Mr. No". The reason he says he wants the slower process is because --

MR. ARAFAT: Okay, from A to Z. Let's have the whole processes from A to Z a package deal.

MR. LEHRER: And how long would that take?

MR. ARAFAT: Okay. We can discuss all these details with the American administration and the United Nations, with the five permanent members. But we have to start not only to follow -- this is my point of view -- and we also had offered for the American administration, our point of views, but the American administration and the mediator have had the right to say yes for Mr. No and no for the Palestinian delegation. We have to start from the beginning. This is the package deal offered through the American administration. This is the package deal offered from the United Nations, or this is the package deal offered from the five members of the Security Council.

MR. LEHRER: You don't care as long as it's --

MR. ARAFAT: No.

MR. LEHRER: -- as long as it's multinational?

MR. ARAFAT: No. I have complete confidence.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Shamir says that the problem is lack of trust, he doesn't trust you, you don't trust him.

MR. ARAFAT: Definite. We are enemies. Now we are enemies, but with whom I am going to make peace, with my friend, with my enemies? And with whom is he going to make peace, with his friends? No. With his enemies. So still now we are enemies. But definite after having all the prosperities to achieve real peace, something different --

MR. LEHRER: Sure.

MR. ARAFAT: -- for me and for him.

MR. LEHRER: So you agree that it may take some time --

MR. ARAFAT: Definite.

MR. LEHRER: -- to go step by step to where he trusts you --

MR. ARAFAT: Definite. Definite. We know as an example Namibia, Namibia processes, it had not -- it had signed some months ago and it gives more months as an example. The same in Afghanistan. It took about 12 months. I know that it will not start within some weeks, I know that.

MR. LEHRER: There are many Israelis as well as --

MR. ARAFAT: I am not asking for the moon.

MR. LEHRER: There are many Israelis, as well as Americans, who still do not believe you when you say that you favor a two state solution, that you could live in peace next to Israel.

MR. ARAFAT: It is not my personal proposal. This is a decision taken in our PNC, Palestinian National Council. It is not Arafat proposal. So this is, had accepted in a democratic way in our PNC, this part of the American population has to understand it is a democratic way within this formula and our democracy had been accepted. And I am obliged, I am committed to what had been accepted in our PNC.

MR. LEHRER: Just so there's no misunderstanding again, you have, you no longer want to destroy Israel, is that correct?

MR. ARAFAT: We said two states solution. We knew that when we accepted 181. It is now their role. It is now the ball in their side, they have to reply. Are they actually accepting what we had declared or not? But when we are speaking about two states solutions, this means Arab Palestinian state and Jewish state according to United Nations Resolution 181. Not only Jewish state. And for the Israelis, they have to go to hell. We are human beings. And we have the right to live as all other people are living all over the world. We are fed up to be rats -- only for snipings and for killing in the air raids, in the fighting, in the naval raids, in the shelling, in the -- through the assassination, as had been done last year with my brother, Ab Jehad -- .and you remember two years before, three years before, an attempt to kill me by one of the Israeli air raids here in Tunisia. We are all human beings and we are looking for our new generations to live peacefully, freely in their land as all other children all over the world.

MR. LEHRER: Where would you draw the boundaries for your new Palestinian state?

MR. ARAFAT: We said it -- easy, and not me only had mentioned it. This had been mentioned in the Fez peace project, the withdrawal of the Israelis from all Palestinian and Arab occupied territories since '67, and to establish the Palestinian independent state. Clear and obvious. And this had been accepted in our PNC last November.

MR. LEHRER: That's the West Bank and Gaza.

MR. ARAFAT: Not only West Bank and Gaza. There is a part in Golan called Hem. There is a part -- Islam.

MR. LEHRER: And Jerusalem.

MR. ARAFAT: Arab Jerusalem.

MR. LEHRER: That has to be part of the Palestinian state?

MR. ARAFAT: What is the meaning of 242? The withdrawal of all the Palestinian and Arab occupied territories, and this, it is not me having to reply, it is Shamir that has to apply it.

MR. LEHRER: What kind of --

MR. ARAFAT: He can't achieve peace and the land.

MR. LEHRER: What kind of state would it be? What kind of government would you foresee? What's your dream of a government and of a country?

MR. ARAFAT: Democratic, real democratic.

MR. LEHRER: With elections like in America or Great Britain?

MR. ARAFAT: Oh, yes. Yes.

MR. LEHRER: Even like in Israel?

MR. ARAFAT: Definite. Why not? Although the Israelis, they haven't pure democratic elections. You know how they are dealing with the Palestinians who have the Israeli nationality. They are not dealing with them on equal footings and equal rights.

MR. LEHRER: But you would?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes, definite. And we are proud of our democracy.

MR. LEHRER: Do you have in mind a pattern, in other words, a country that already exists that has a government that you would like your Palestinian state to follow?

MR. ARAFAT: I followed the same experience of American people and the American nation. I like it.

MR. LEHRER: You like the American democracy?

MR. ARAFAT: American people democracy.

MR. LEHRER: American people democracy. What about the --

MR. ARAFAT: You see. I am specifying it, the American people's democracy.

MR. LEHRER: Explain that, the difference.

MR. ARAFAT: Because you see the American administration accepts something and some democracy in their land but they're refusing the democracy for the others.

MR. LEHRER: I see.

MR. ARAFAT: I am speaking about American people's democracy.

MR. LEHRER: I understand.

MR. ARAFAT: Not American administration democracy.

MR. LEHRER: What about --

MR. ARAFAT: Because a democracy, you can't look for democracy from one side or from one angle.

MR. LEHRER: Have you given thought to the kind of economic system this new state would have?

MR. ARAFAT: Free democracy --

MR. LEHRER: Free --

MR. ARAFAT: Free. Definite. It is now. We have these dynamic activities among the Palestinians. I can't control it in what this modern system -- free --

MR. LEHRER: All Palestinians in the world would be invited to come and live here?

MR. ARAFAT: At least, they can, they would -- they can have the ability to be buried in their homeland, not to live without an identity card -- not to live without a passport -- at least they can have their passport, they can have their identity. Definite. Those who are living in Chile in this very luxury, they will not return back. I know that, but I am in need of their money.

MR. LEHRER: And you --

MR. ARAFAT: I want them to come with their money.

MR. LEHRER: Money and their bags.

MR. ARAFAT: Definite. And those who have this Kuwaiti nationality, I know that they would not return back but I need all their money too. They are millionaires.

MR. LEHRER: Do you believe that a viable state can be created in this territory that you're talking about, that can live economically and live in peace as a real country?

MR. ARAFAT: You know, we maybe are not following our economical activities as Palestinians. We are proud that we had achieved many successes in this line all over the world, in the Gulf states, in America, Latin America, in the states, in Europe, everywhere. We are proud of it, how we are now living. You know that now our people are living through these donations and through these supplies and assistance and help from our communities all over, everywhere.

MR. LEHRER: Politically, let me read you what a newspaper columnist in the United States, a man named Charles Krauthamer of the Washington Post wrote recently about the Palestinian state, "In a Palestinian" -- .he was talking in terms of the uprising, and he said, "In a Palestinian state, 16 year old boys will not rule. The armed factions of the PLO will. The West Bank will become the focus of murderous conflict between PLO factions, each backed by an Arab patron precisely as has happened in Lebanon for the last 14 years."

MR. ARAFAT: He knew that, and here he has to remember that after my departure from Beirut, I said that the volcano and the typhoon will not stop. Nobody was listening to me because they were listening to Sharon, the children killer. What happened? We were controlling during our presence in Beirut all these functions. And here we are, after our departure everything had been exploded. We were giving the model. You have to remember, we had thousands of Americans to evacuate in 1976, twice, thousands of the Americans. Even during the siege of Beirut in 1982, I opened all the passages for the Americans, for the Europeans, to leave peacefully. And many of them refused to leave and insist to stay with me in the siege, because we were protecting them. And please ask your embassy who were protecting the American embassy in Beirut -- the Palestinian.

MR. LEHRER: His point and the point of others who questioned the viability of a Palestinian state is that you Palestinians are so divided you have radical movements over here, you --

MR. ARAFAT: And they are -- and the same among the Jews. They have the extremists, the fanatics groups and had been elected in the last election, 18 of them, 18 seats. And the Communist Party, the Labor Party, the Lekud, the religious parties, the progressive parties, and that we had the same.

MR. LEHRER: Speaking of --

MR. ARAFAT: And we are proud of this democracy. And we have in our PNC all these parties and all these groups. This is a part of our democracy. You have the same thing in the states. They have the same in France, they have the same in Italy.

MR. LEHRER: There was a poll of the Israeli people.

MR. ARAFAT: Yes.

MR. LEHRER: And 3/4 of the Israeli people said they did not believe that the Palestinians would ever be satisfied with just the territory that was occupied as a result of the 1967 war and that eventually they, your people would want to take the rest of Israel.

MR. ARAFAT: All the guarantees they need I am ready to offer. And not only my guarantees. Definite, they are considering that I am their enemy and I am considering them, and I am speaking about the leadership, and I am considering this leadership as my enemy and they are considering the Palestinian leadership as their enemies. But I am ready to offer all the guarantees and not only Palestinian guarantees, United Nations guarantees, superpower guarantees, big powers guarantees, EEC guarantees. What else? They have mentioned the same before Camp David agreement with Egypt. And now 11 years. It is not a truce between Egypt and Israel, it is an agreement had been taken place.

MR. LEHRER: You were asked by the United States to help in any way you might be able to find out who was responsible for the blowing up of the Pan Am Flight 103 and it's been --

MR. ARAFAT: It isn't official.

MR. LEHRER: They asked you officially, did they not?

MR. ARAFAT: No.

MR. LEHRER: No, they did not?

MR. ARAFAT: They didn't ask me officially. They have to respect me and to ask me officially.

MR. LEHRER: I see. So you have not --

MR. ARAFAT: And I have some information.

MR. LEHRER: You do have some information?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes, but you know also, they didn't offer me any facilities, because to continue my information and my investigation, I am in need of some facilities from in Germany, in the place which had been exploded, in Britain. I am in need to continue -- but I am sorry to say no facilities have been offered to me.

MR. LEHRER: Do you think you could find out who did it if you were offered some help?

MR. ARAFAT: I'm doing my best because I consider it's an awful crime. Not only against some American people, or some passengers from different nationalities, it is against the human being, it is a crime against human beings.

MR. LEHRER: There have been stories in the last few days which say that a radical Palestinian group was responsible for this. Does that, do you know that to be the case?

MR. ARAFAT: They are mentioning some groups but not mentioning PLO or --

MR. LEHRER: No. Not PLO.

MR. ARAFAT: They are not part in our PLO. This is the rumors. But I am not following, because I haven't any official documents.

MR. LEHRER: But did your investigation indicate that it might be one, not a PLO group, not a PNC group, but a radical Palestinian group?

MR. ARAFAT: I don't know, but definite, if this is to be done by the Palestinians, we have to punish him..through our means and also through international means, through the INTERPOL. I am ready to coordinate with the INTERPOL in this attitude.

MR. LEHRER: So if it was a Palestinian, you want those people found, is that right?

MR. ARAFAT: If they are Palestinians, no mercy for them.

MR. LEHRER: Would those people be welcome in your new Palestinian state?

MR. ARAFAT: Definite not. We will not accept it. Our people, our masses cannot accept these who are working with intelligence services. They are not working in our arena -- we know they are belonging to some different intelligence services. I am not here to mention the names of these intelligence services, but the American administration has complete information about these intelligence services.

MR. LEHRER: How would you characterize the discussions that are going on between your representatives and those of the United States?

MR. ARAFAT: It is going in a very positive atmosphere. And we are speaking frankly, discussing all the points, giving, we are receiving the American points of view, remarks, and we are sending the same to the American administration, but definite we have the right to ask to have another standard of another level.

MR. LEHRER: You mean without the talks?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes. Yes. Not only through ambassadors.

MR. LEHRER: Are you ready to personally involve yourself in these conversations?

MR. ARAFAT: Why not? But not through, with an ambassador. With other levels, I am ready.

MR. LEHRER: Would you like to talk to Secretary of State Baker?

MR. ARAFAT: I would like to. Why not? And I think, as he Is doing with all the other partners in the Middle East, I have the right to ask him to deal in the same level with the Palestinians. I am dealing with the EEC, I am dealing with the socialist countries, I am dealing with the Islamic leadership, I am dealing with the non-alignment countries' movement. Why not with the states?

MR. LEHRER: Have you specifically asked for a meeting with Secretary of State Baker?

MR. ARAFAT: No. Not to forget I asked for a visa to go to New York and it was a negative response.

MR. LEHRER: Do you think things have changed under President Bush and Secretary Baker than what they were under President Reagan and Secretary Shultz?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes. I know the pressures to stop this American/Palestinian dialogue.

MR. LEHRER: Are you getting signals?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes, Yes. I am getting signals. I am following. And in spite of this pressure, His Excellency, the President, accepts the continuing dialogues with the PLO.

MR. LEHRER: Have you picked up any --

MR. ARAFAT: Because definite, we are the main part in the Middle East conflict.

MR. LEHRER: Do you detect any change in the official U.S. attitude toward Israel?

MR. ARAFAT: I'm not following in details, but I am following what had been some of the -- because not all the information I have through the last talks of Mr. No with the American administration, a part of it. And we are in need of more information about the official information.

MR. LEHRER: When your representative talks to the U.S. representative, do you feel as if you are indirectly at least talking to Israel?

MR. ARAFAT: Definite, no doubt of it. The American administration is working actually as a mediator between the two sides.

MR. LEHRER: So you are already in conversations with Israel in some ways, right, indirectly?

MR. ARAFAT: Many times it has happened. In 1981, it had happened between me and the Israelis through Mr. Philip Habib. In 1982, it had been done, and there is an agreement between me and Mr. Philip Habib. It was also in direct talks with the Israelis.

MR. LEHRER: That was over Lebanon.

MR. ARAFAT: Lebanon, yes.

MR. LEHRER: Right, right, but do you feel now that your messages are getting through the United States to Israel?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes.

MR. LEHRER: Last week in the United States, Judy Woodruff, who works on our program, interviewed Prime Minister Shamir, and --

MR. ARAFAT: Prime Minister No.

MR. LEHRER: "Prime Minister No", and he was asked whether or not the United States was delivering messages to the PLO from Israel and he said, the PLO already knows his message, and I quote him, "I don't trust them. I think they should dissolve themselves. I think the PLO is an obstacle for peace in the Middle East."

MR. ARAFAT: And he is an obstacle for peace too, from my point of view. But I have to deal with him. You see, I have been elected by my people and he has been elected by his people. I can't choose their delegation and they haven't the right to choose our delegation.

MR. LEHRER: Would you go to Israel and talk to him?

MR. ARAFAT: Where?

MR. LEHRER: Or somewhere else. Are you willing to sit down and talk to Shamir?

MR. ARAFAT: Definite. With whom am I have to make the peace? With him. To accept him or not to accept him, I am ready -- if we are going to make peace, I have to go to talk with him and definite we had mentioned many times that peace has to be done between enemies and not between friends.

MR. LEHRER: You know, I'm sure you're aware of this, there have been three Arabs in recent times who have either negotiated with Israel or sought to negotiate with Israel, King Abdulah, Anwar Sadat, and Bashear Gemayel. All three of them were assassinated by their fellow Arabs. Does that bother you when you think about this?

MR. ARAFAT: No.

MR. LEHRER: Why not?

MR. ARAFAT: Because I am following exactly what had been accepted in our PNC. It is not my personal proposals. It is not my personal point of view, this I am committed, I am implementing what had been accepted in our PNC. Our PNC had accepted this plan, this initiative, peace initiative, and I am implementing it. I am committed to it. It is my duty to follow it. If not, they will choose another leadership to follow this line.

MR. LEHRER: But you are not following a Yasser Arafat vision for peace and for a Palestinian state?

MR. ARAFAT: Definitely. Part of this vision is my personal vision and I have declared this and I voted for it and nobody had squeezed me to vote for this peace initiative. I have voted for it, I worked for it, because I am satisfied with it.

MR. LEHRER: Do you feel your life is in jeopardy because of this?

MR. ARAFAT: You see, from the beginning, I had offered all my life for the sake of my people, for the sake of our new generations. This is part of our mission.

MR. LEHRER: You consider yourself a man of peace, correct?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes. And I am proud that after -- you see why after this long confrontation, I found no other way but to find, but to work for peace. For how long we will continue this confrontation, for how long? Generation after generation, after generation after generation, for how long?

MR. LEHRER: And yet the image -- .

MR. ARAFAT: And this Israeli leadership has to understand that it is their duty to work to find peace and to achieve peace.

MR. LEHRER: And yet in America, there are a lot of people who feel that you project, you wear a military uniform, you carry a gun on your hip, you project the image of a man of war, not a man of peace. What do you say to those people?

MR. ARAFAT: Eisenhower was a general and in spite of that he had been elected the President of the United States of America. Washington was also a military man and in spite of that he had been elected the first President of the United States of America. What is wrong with that?

MR. LEHRER: But both of those men took off their uniforms --

MR. ARAFAT: Okay. When I return back -- maybe I will do it.

MR. LEHRER: When you become president of a Palestinian state?

MR. ARAFAT: When I will be there.

MR. LEHRER: Is that your idea of heaven, to use a universal term, to be president of a Palestinian state?

MR. ARAFAT: You see, we have to respect our democracy. I don't know when we return back whom they will elect. Maybe I will be another picture of Churchill after victory, after achieving stop the war, they had not elected him. This is a democracy -- we have to respect the democracy. This is the democracy.

MR. LEHRER: But your own personal feelings, that would be where you would like to be some day?

MR. ARAFAT: The most important achievement for me, real peace in the land of peace for our people and for our new generations, this is the most important, more than anything else.

MR. LEHRER: Finally let me ask you --

MR. ARAFAT: You don't understand how our people are -- you don't know the troubles, the obstacles, the very difficult life our people are living: Homeless, stateless, without an identity card. Believe me, sometimes we haven't places for our people to be buried in. We have no graves. Believe me, this is, you see, a daily problem for us, for our cadres, for our people, for our -- You can't imagine how difficult our lives are as refugees, as homeless, stateless.

MR. LEHRER: Do you feel that you are close to achieving this, achieving your state?

MR. ARAFAT: Yes.

MR. LEHRER: How close, how much time will it take?

MR. ARAFAT: Not more than a distance of a stone's throw.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.

MR. ARAFAT: Thank you.

MR. LEHRER: Tomorrow night we will have another interview with another key player in the Middle East peace, King Hussein of Jordan. UPDATE - DAY IN COURT

MR. MacNeil: Now the Oliver North trial. This afternoon, Judge Gerhard Gesell instructed the jury in the law applying to the 12 criminal counts against the former White House aide and the jury then retired to begin considering its verdict. Nina Totenberg of National Public Radio was there and is again with us. Nina, first of all, what was the atmosphere like in the courtroom? Was there a sense that what the judge was saying was very important, perhaps even crucial, to North's fate?

NINA TOTENBERG, National Public Radio: Well, there as a sort of a delayed action today. We had a last minute flap because of a report that two jurors had inaccurately filled out their questionnaire back in January, when they were selected for this jury. So in the morning when we had expected to have jury instructions, instead, the judge met with each juror on this panel in chambers with the lawyers interviewing them and so everything was delayed. In the morning, Oliver North's mother and wife were there and he was there and he looked calm. By the afternoon, he looked very grim-faced, very gray, I would not be candid if I didn't say apprehensive. And that was the atmosphere that you felt in the courtroom after -- that kind of delayed expectation for jury instruction, so everybody's stomach was in a not and the defendant's, I'm sure, was the worst.

MR. MacNeil: Let's go through the specific instructions to the jury on some key points in the trial. First of all, on the big general claim by North that he did everything he did on a higher authority.

MS. TOTENBERG: Well, I'd say on that the jury instructions were no solace to him, that he lost most of the things that his lawyers wanted the judge to tell the jury. The judge told the jury that they could consider authorization as a factor to be considered, but they had to consider it in a very limited context. The judge said, "If North was ordered to break the law and had no legal alternative, you may consider that, but the order cannot have been a general admonition or a vague expression or preference. The order had to be precise and tailored to the circumstances at hand. If North had a general impression that he was expected to lie or conceal or destroy documents, that is not enough to exonerate him of responsibility," the judge said. And finally, "If there was any legal alternative, if North had two courses of action, one legal and one illegal, if he chose the illegal action, he must be held responsible. Neither the President nor any of North's superiors had the legal authority to violate the law," said the Judge. "Our country is governed by the rule of law.".

MR. MacNeil: Well, what would you think North and his attorneys had wanted the judge to say?

MS. TOTENBERG: They wanted the judge to say that Oliver North had acted in good faith and should not be held responsible because he was following what he thought was a legal order. And they filed great lengthy memoranda to that effect and the language that they wanted the judge to use the judge did not use. The language, more or less, that the prosecution wanted the judge to use, the judge did use.

MR. MacNeil: Now what about the claim that Sullivan made so strongly day before yesterday that if North was guilty, Mr. Reagan was guilty? And of course, they tried to get Mr. Reagan to come and be a witness and the judge turned that down. What about the role of Mr. Reagan in this?

MS. TOTENBERG: Again, the judge was no solace to Oliver North. He told the jurors that just because Mr. Reagan or Mr. Poindexter was not there was not enough, that they had not been available to either side as a witness in this case, he said, and you are not to speculate about this, you are not to concern yourself about that, and he went on, "You are not to consider the conduct of others as a justification for North's conduct." The judge added "You are not to take into account that others have been charged with offenses or not charged. The defendant has been tried alone for various legal reasons," he said, "and you are not to speculate about who else should or should not be tried, it is not your concern. Nor," he said, "should you concern yourself with the question of punishment. That is for me to decide," he said, "in the event of conviction, and I will take into account the circumstances that have been described at this trial."

MR. MacNeil: That presumably was a caution because he faces such a very long prison term if he were convicted on all counts and such very big fine.

MS. TOTENBERG: Of course, the jury doesn't know that but there's been repeated illusion in the trial by the defense to the fact that Robert McFarlane pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor and Oliver North faces felony charges and the judge specifically said you're not to concern yourself with whether this is a misdemeanor or a felony, you concern yourself with whether or not Oliver North is guilty of these charges on this record.

MR. MacNeil: What about North's lying to Congress?

MS. TOTENBERG: Well, the judge issued a whole set of instructions on what kind of proof the jury is to use. Interestingly --

MR. MacNeil: I mean, North has said he did mislead the Congress. He's conceded that fact.

MS. TOTENBERG: He said he did. Interestingly, the judge said on the lying to Congress and the Attorney General, lying to the Attorney General charges, those are four charges, that the jury only has to find general intent, meaning that North acted knowingly and wilfully. They don't even have to find that he had an evil or bad purpose, which they have to find for some of the other charges.

MR. MacNeil: To find him guilty, all they have to find is that he knew what he was doing?

MS. TOTENBERG: That he knew what he was doing and that he knew what he was saying was false, and that he knew every step of the way what he was doing. He doesn't have to know that it was illegal. He has to know that it was false.

MR. MacNeil: So that again would not be any particular comfort.

MS. TOTENBERG: No, it is not any comfort. There are a few minor comforts in these instructions for Oliver North, but not much.

MR. MacNeil: What about North's personal motives, apart from the lying to Congress and the shredding of documents and everything else, what about the so-called sort of -- I've forgotten the term you used actually -- the money he is alleged to have misappropriated and used and that sort of thing --

MS. TOTENBERG: Well, the motives, interestingly, the judge said if he had a mixed motive, if, for example, when he shredded documents he wanted to protect secrets but he also wanted to protect himself, then protecting himself becomes the operative motive. A mixed motives means at least a partly bad motive and that is enough for the jury to determine that he had a bad motive and to convict him. On the money charges, if he, for example, accepted a gratuity knowing that he was either in the future or had given a favor to arms dealer Richard Secord, that is enough and so on.

MR. MacNeil: What about the Iran, he also said something, as I understand it, about whether you approved or disapproved of the Iran-Contra policies, what relevance does that have to the --

MS. TOTENBERG: He specifically told the jury, you are not to consider the policy questions in this case, you are not to consider whether Pres. Reagan's policy vis-a-vis the Contras was wise or unwise, and he told them there is no evidence, for example, that the diversion of money from the arm sales to Iran to the Contras was illegal, you are only to concern yourself with whether Oliver North lied, obstructed, cheated, whether he committed these very specific criminal acts.

MR. MacNeil: So to the extent that the judge's instructions today could have been good news or bad news for Oliver North, you construe them as largely bad news, do you?

MS. TOTENBERG: And I think Oliver North did too. I think that was written all over his face.

MR. MacNeil: And yet the jury, if they were deeply sympathetic to North and decided that they believed him all along, they could decide, they could still decide on all these accounts to acquit him, is that not right?

MS. TOTENBERG: The jury can do anything that it wants. It's the 800 pound gorilla.

MR. MacNeil: Sure.

MS. TOTENBERG: And it can certainly do anything it wants and it could certainly acquit him on some or all of these charges. And there are outs, you know, I would have to get far too legal and technical.

MR. MacNeil: That's what I really wanted to say.

MS. TOTENBERG: It's an inch thick document, these instructions to the jury. It took two hours to read. And this inch thick document is going into that jury room and on every count there is a way out of some kind for Oliver North.

MR. MacNeil: Okay. Out for us right now. Nina, we have to go. Thank you very much indeed. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again the major stories of this Thursday, in addition to the North trial, PLO Leader Yasser Arafat said in a Newshour interview he was prepared to accept the Israeli proposal for elections in the occupied territories if they were internationally supervised and part of a package deal, and the bodies of 47 U.S. Navy men killed in the U.S.S. Iowa tragedy arrived at Dover Air Force in Delaware early this evening. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the Newshour tonight. And we will be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.