The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight: Elaine Shannon of "Time" Magazine tells about the Russian caught spying from a bench outside the State Department; Tom Bearden updates the gays in the military story; Ray Suarez runs a discussion of the Israeli and Syrian decision to talk peace; and Spencer Michels reports on the firefighters memorial service in Massachusetts. It all follows our summary of the news this Thursday.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: U.S. officials said today they'd caught a Russian diplomat spying on the State Department. He was arrested yesterday on the street outside the department's headquarters in Washington. Officials said he was monitoring a listening device planted inside the building. He invoked diplomatic immunity and was ordered to leave the country within ten days. Russia had expelled a U.S. diplomat last week, after accusing her of spying, but deputy attorney general Eric Holder denied the two cases were related. He spoke at a Washington briefing.

ERIC HOLDER, Deputy Attorney General: This is not a question of any kind of retaliation. These are separate matters. This is the matter here in Washington is something that had been under review for some time and is not in any way related to anything that happened any place else.

JIM LEHRER: We'll have more on this story right after the News Summary. Russian President Yeltsin had strong words today for the United States over Chechnya. Speaking during a visit to China, he said President Clinton will not dictate how Russia deals with Chechen rebels. He said Russia is still a great power with a full arsenal of nuclear weapons. In Washington, Mr. Clinton responded.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: You know, I didn't think he had forgotten the miracle when he disagreed with what I did in Kosovo. I mean, we can't get too serious about... let's not talk about what the leaders are saying and all these words of criticism. Let's focus on what the countryis doing. Is it right or wrong? Will it work or not? What are the consequences? I think... I don't agree with what's going on there, and I think I have an obligation to say so.

JIM LEHRER: In Chechnya today, Russian troops continued to strengthen their control over the capital, Grozny. On Monday, Moscow issued an ultimatum to people still in the city -- to get out or be killed. Israeli Prime Minister Barak said today his country could make peace with Syria and Lebanon within a matter of months. President Clinton announced yesterday that Israel and Syria would resume negotiations for the first time since 1996. Barak said he would submit any agreement to a national referendum, and he predicted a sweeping victory. We'll have more on this story later in the program tonight.

Tens of thousands of people demonstrated in Havana today. They demanded the return of a 6- year-old Cuban boy to his father. The boy is with relatives in Miami. He, and his mother, and stepfather, fled Cuba on a boat last month, but the adults died on the way. Now, his biological father, and Fidel Castro, are insisting on his return. U.S. officials say they want to meet with the father before taking any action. There will be no new criminal charges filed in the killing of Martin Luther King. Instead, Justice Department officials said today they'll complete a 16-month investigation within weeks and release the results. Yesterday, a civil jury in Memphis found the assassination was a conspiracy, and not the work of a lone gunman. In Atlanta today, one of King's sons said it doesn't matter if there's further prosecution.

DEXTER KING: This family is not hoping to cleanse and heal and move on, closure. So, we... this is it for us. This is not just a spiel. We're here to say we feel like we can move on now.

JIM LEHRER: An Army private received a life sentence today for beating another soldier to death. Military prosecutors said 18-year-old Calvin Glover was motivated by a hatred of homosexuals. He was convicted yesterday at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. His sentence includes the possibility of parole. First Lady Hillary Clinton said today the current policy on gays in the military has not worked. Don't ask don't tell was one of President Clinton's first initiatives. But, the First Lady said it had actually made things worse for homosexuals in the ranks. She spoke at a news conference in New York, where she plans to run for the U.S. Senate. We'll have more on gays in the military later in the program tonight. President Clinton and thousands of firefighters turned out today for a memorial service in Worcester, Massachusetts. They paid tribute to six firemen who died Friday trying to save homeless people in a burning warehouse. The President spoke to the mourners in a packed arena.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: We hope that by our collective presence, we will speak louder than words in saying that your tragedy is ours, your men are ours, your whole country honors them and you. We grieve with you, and we will stay with you.

JIM LEHRER: We'll have more on this memorial service at the end of the program tonight. Between now and then, a most interesting spy story; gays in the military; and a Middle East peace breakthrough.

FOCUS - SPYING GAME

JIM LEHRER: And the Russian spy story. The details now from Elaine Shannon, crime and national security correspondent for Time Magazine.

Elaine, welcome.

ELAINE SHANNON: Thanks.

JIM LEHRER: Let's go through this thing from the beginning. Some FBI agents spotted a man outside the State Department. When did this happen?

ELAINE SHANNON: Sometime this summer. And, actually, they're not agents. There's a very interesting little-known group called the G's, which is a special surveillance group. They're picked not to be as boring and dull and clean cut as FBI agents. They're picked to blend into the population; they do a lot of surveillances. They were over there on another mission, and they happened to notice this guy. And one of them recognized his face because that's their job - to know the faces of all the Russian agents who are assigned to the embassy here.

JIM LEHRER: And what was this guy doing?

ELAINE SHANNON: Hanging out. And he was in a diplomatic car. He looked like he was kind of fiddling with something in his car. It just wasn't right. And so they set up a bigger surveillance on him, watched him more closely. He would start coming to the State Department several times a week often and fiddle with things in his car, sit on a park bench. This just wasn't right. So they figured there was what they call a technical penetration -- meaning that he was receiving some signals from inside.

JIM LEHRER: How long did it take them to determine who this man... you say they recognized him right away - recognized him as who?

ELAINE SHANNON: A Russian agent - and they knew his name. These people - they spend their whole lives knowing the names and faces of the Russians and other nationals who come here under diplomatic cover but who are in fact believable to be espionage agents.

JIM LEHRER: So, they knew he was a spy?

ELAINE SHANNON: Yes.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. Then what did they do? They kept him under surveillance.

ELAINE SHANNON: They watched him. They began a big sweep working with a diplomatic security part of the State Department of the State Department. It took them quite a while because when they finally found the bug which was in the 7th floor conference room not in the Secretary of State's offices up - but near there, it was teeny, and it was very, very -

JIM LEHRER: How teeny? How teeny?

ELAINE SHANNON: They won't give us the dimensions, and all they'll tell us is that it was close to the most sophisticated bug they have ever seen. It had a good power source and it could emanate for a long time, but it wasn't emanating all the time, which is one of the reasons the sweeps didn't catch it when they do the security sweeps.

JIM LEHRER: So this guy, this Russian agent, he would drive his car... did he always park in the same place?

ELAINE SHANNON: Well, that's another thing that they noticed is that he would get to the State Department and, like a lot of places in Washington, it's a tough parking area. It's one of the toughest. So, he'd park where he could with these diplomatic plates. And then hew would - he knew that -- it was clear that he was angling for certain spots. So, he'd wait until whoever was there pulled out. Then he'd try to get that spot.

JIM LEHRER: And so his job was to monitor what was being said, and did he have a recording device?

ELAINE SHANNON: Probably, probably because he wasn't sitting there taking notes, but it appears that the device was remote activated. It's not something that was emanating all the time. He would get into his car and somehow turn it on and it would broadcast to him.

JIM LEHRER: All right. So last summer they knew he was doing this?

ELAINE SHANNON: Yes.

JIM LEHRER: So, did they spread the word, let's don't talk about anything top secret in that conference room for a while?

ELAINE SHANNON: Oh, no. They tried to keep their knowledge of this very, very covert because they didn't know who -- if anybody -- he might be working with. I mean, first of all, they had to find the bug. Then when they did, they had to make sure that that room wasn't used for top secret meetings.

JIM LEHRER: But they did do that, right?

ELAINE SHANNON: Yes, they did, but they couldn't tell people. They still don't know exactly who put that bug in that room because they have checked the State Department access records. And they don't find that he came into the State Department for a meeting.

JIM LEHRER: But what about another Russian diplomat, a legitimate Russian diplomat - so-called legitimate Russian diplomat -- was there any record of whether or not he or she went into that room?

ELAINE SHANNON: Well, there are plenty of meetings in the State Department. And I'm told that one of the problems is that if you're a diplomat and you have an appointment with somebody and you're going to a conference, you can walk down the hall, you can go to the men's room, you can go to the press room. You're not escorted all the time. So they don't have a good log of who is in this room every moment. I think they're checking conference logs, but that's not going to be a definitive answer.

JIM LEHRER: But, I mean, all it would take for this kind of sophisticated gadget is to just literally take it out of your pocket and lean over and do something, slip it under the table, right?

ELAINE SHANNON: Well, that's close. They say that....

JIM LEHRER: I'm making all this up.

ELAINE SHANNON: Well, you're good at it. They said it's not something that just slaps under the table; that's why they don't think it's another country guy that sort of gets some chewing gum and puts it there. It was, they say, professionally implanted. It took some time to do. It took them a long time to find this, but certainly somebody who got an appointment with anybody in the building to discuss what, you know, nuclear waste disposal, could have noticed that this room was open - you know -- and gone in there and done it.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Now what happened yesterday when they arrested this guy?

ELAINE SHANNON: Well, they were waiting for him to show up again because they wanted to prove that it was a Russian penetration and who he is. So he did show up yesterday about 11:30. They went up to him.... he was standing --

JIM LEHRER: Which side of the building? The building is a rectangular building. The main entrance faces South, right, toward the Tidal Basin and all of that, not the Tidal Basin but the Potomac River. Is that where this guy was parked?

ELAINE SHANNON: I'm not quite sure. It was by a green space, I believe, and he was standing by a bench. And he had gotten out of his car. They believed they saw him adjust the equipment in his car - adjust the equipment - and get out -- at which point the FBI approached and identified themselves. He immediately claimed diplomatic immunity. They let him cool his heels for a couple of hours until they called the embassy here. And the embassy sent two officers over to pick him up, and they confirmed that he was a diplomat.

JIM LEHRER: And that's the end of it? There's nothing that could be done about it beyond that? He could not be prosecuted?

ELAINE SHANNON: No. But it's not the end of the it because they want to find out how that thing got there -- are there any others in any other U.S. facilities? They believe they swept the State Department pretty good. But, of course, you're never sure about that. The technology may have improved even after this one was planted. And they want to find out what was heard on this thing. They think they have a rough date of when it was put in. It's not five years old. Is it one year old? Is it nine months old?

JIM LEHRER: And they would have a record of the meetings that happened in that room so then they could match that, right? Is that what they're going to try to do?

ELAINE SHANNON: I would hope so. But I don't know how good their record-keeping system is, and whatever it is it is not going to be perfect.

JIM LEHRER: The Cold War is over. What's going on here? Why are the Russians still spying on the United States, and why is the United States still spying on Russia?

ELAINE SHANNON: The day the Berlin Wall came down, I was - I called the FBI - I was calling over there and saying, well, are these guys coming over? Are you going to have lunch? They said no, the volume hasn't dropped, the phone calls are still being made. The dead drops are still being served. Everything they were doing, they're doing; they changed their name from KGB, to Russian Foreign Intelligence Service but that's it. And this has been consistently true. We can make very good weapons here. They make pretty good ones too. But they're our competitors. If they went to sell to the third world and they want to improve their weapons system, they might want a lot of our military and industrial intelligence. And they want political intelligence, look at Chechnya.

JIM LEHRER: Yes, but bugging the State Department - I mean, that's out of an old book.

ELAINE SHANNON: Yes. It's a wonderful yarn, and it happens to be true. And they did a very good job of it.

JIM LEHRER: Okay. But we don't know how long - we don't know how long this has been going on?

ELAINE SHANNON: Probably early in the year.

JIM LEHRER: Earlier this year. Okay, Elaine, thank you very much.

ELAINE SHANNON: Thank you.

UPDATE - GAYS IN THE MILITARY

JIM LEHRER: Now, gays in the military. The killer of private Barry Winchell was sentenced to life in prison today. That killing was one of several incidents prompting demands for changes in the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Tom Bearden has our update.

TOM BEARDEN: Lackland Air Force base in san Antonio, Texas, calls itself "the gateway to the Air Force." Every new inductee goes through basic military training here, from the obstacles of the "confidence course" to instruction on the Pentagon's policy on gay and lesbian servicemen and women.

INSTRUCTOR: Anyone? Anyone?

TOM BEARDEN: Through classroom lectures and instruction manuals, trainees are told that the Pentagon has a "don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue" policy, which says "the Department of Defense will not ask, nor will members be required to reveal their sexual preference. Homosexual orientation is a personal and private matter, and will not be questioned during service. However, homosexual conduct is not compatible with military service, and will subject a member to discharge from the armed forces." Since the policy went into effect in 1993, the number of discharges for homosexuality in all the services has gone up over 80 percent. Last year, 1,149 cases were reported, compared to 597 in 1994. Lackland Air Force Base had the highest rate in the entire armed forces, so Lackland changed its procedures. Lieutenant Colonel Buck Jones is deputy commander of the 737th training group. He says they suspected a lot of recruits were making false statements about their sexual orientation simply to get out of the Air Force quickly.

LT. COL. BUCK JONES, U.S. Air Force: We did an internal review of why we were having such large numbers of homosexual discharges, and we found that our process was the quickest way out of basic military training-- generally, seven to ten days, once a trainee made a statement, they were discharged out of the Air Force.

INSTRUCTOR: Go! Let's go! You got a problem, then I'm gonna drop you in the water. Let's go!

TOM BEARDEN: Lackland's process now requires trainees to have confidential meetings with their squadron operations officer and with Air Force lawyers, and gives them the chance to recant their statement. Lieutenant Colonel Warren Abraham is a squadron ops officer.

LT. COL. WARREN ABRAHAM, U.S. Air Force: When we're talking recant, and retracting statements, we're talking about individuals that made a truly false official statement. Again, getting back to the policy, the policy is not that homosexuals cannot serve in the Air Force. The policy is that there are certain acts associated with homosexual orientation that the Air Force, DOD, does not condone.

TOM BEARDEN: Before the new procedures went into effect in March, homosexual discharges were running at 40 to 50 per month at Lackland. There have been just over 40 discharges in the succeeding eight months. Gay rights advocates applauded Lackland's actions, but say the number of separations for reasons of sexual orientation from all the services is too high. The Service Member's Legal Defense Network, a gay and lesbian advocacy group, says the Pentagon has violated its own policy repeatedly, ever since it went into effect six years ago. Michelle Benecke is the co- director of the SLDN.

MICHELLE BENECKE: Uniformed leadership has failed to implement this policy as it was intended. They have failed to stop asking, pursuits, and harassment, and in six years, they have held no one accountable for thousands of documented violations.

TOM BEARDEN: Benecke says gay and lesbian service members are being investigated and kicked out when they shouldn't be-- people like former Airman Andre Taylor, who now works for the SLDN in Washington, DC. Taylor enlisted in the Air Force in 1994, hoping to make a career of it. He received several commendations for his work as an aircraft refueler. But after serving almost three years, while stationed in Hawaii, Air Force investigators called him in and asked if he knew the definition of sodomy.

ANDRE TAYLOR: When I did let them know I knew the definition of sodomy, they asked me if I could continue speaking, but at first they would like to read my rights to me, and that's when I found out that I was suspect under this investigation, under sodomy. I didn't know who turned my name in, I didn't know who had suspected me of anything at the time, as well.

TOM BEARDEN: Taylor says he was one of 17 servicemen who were investigated after Air Force prosecutors reached a plea bargain with an airman who was later convicted of homosexual rape. His sentence was allegedly reduced in exchange for the names of other homosexuals serving in the military. Taylor says the incident was a clear violation of the Pentagon's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

ANDRE TAYLOR: The military is not supposed to ask, you're not supposed to tell, and the military is not supposed to pursue you. In this case, I was pursued. I was asked a definition, and I said I know the definition. Four months later, I'm discharged, because I don't make a statement. There's no evidence found against me. And the military has pursued rigorously against me. And with that, they have ruined my career, they have ruined my name, my relationship with friends and family, all because of an allegation that was never founded, never a statement made by me.

TOM BEARDEN: Pentagon officials say the case in Hawaii was unique, and responded with a 1998 directive to the services. It said "agreeing to limit or reduce the sentence of a service member charged with serious criminal offenses in return for information concerning the consensual homosexual conduct of others is inappropriate, and is inconsistent with the spirit of this policy." Rudy De Leon is the Undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness. He says the Pentagon took the Hawaii case seriously, and that there haven't been similar cases since.

RUDY DE LEON: It's an important point, and I think the fact that there have not been subsequent cases of this type reflects the fact that we're constantly working the policy to make sure that we are fair in its implementation. We have tried in our new memorandums to really provide additional instruction on how the policy works to commanders, to military lawyers, who may in the field be dealing with these actual cases. And I think our focus there is to make sure that when our commanders encounter one of these cases again, that they are fair, clear, and understand the policy as they implement it.

TOM BEARDEN: The case of Army Private Barry Winchell has led to still further recent changes in the policy. Shortly after his death, the Pentagon released a memorandum to the services that directed commanders to investigate and stop harassment when it is reported. It also said such harassment could not be used as a pretext to investigate the victim's sexual orientation. This woman, who recently left the Navy, says her commanders didn't intervene when she was harassed aboard an aircraft carrier. She says she was accused of being a lesbian because she rejected the advances of male sailors. She asked us not to use her name.

WOMAN: If I didn't comply with what the guys wanted-- I mean, if they wanted to take me out to dinner and I didn't want to go-- then they would basically assume, or just judge me from, you know, what they thought or what they wanted to think, which was either I was homosexual, or I just didn't like men.

TOM BEARDEN: And they would say this to you?

WOMAN: Yes.

TOM BEARDEN: Specifically, how would they say?

WOMAN: "You're a lesbian. Are you gay? You're not going out with me, you must be gay."

TOM BEARDEN: She says one of the harassers was her direct superior.

WOMAN: I had worked down below decks, and there was a petty officer that... he, from the day I went down there to work down there, he just... I mean, day after day, he would constantly, constantly harass me, want me to go out with him, just, I mean, saying sexual comments to me all the time.

TOM BEARDEN: Then she says she received a written death threat on the window of her truck, and says her superiors still didn't act.

WOMAN: The commanders, the high-up people, need to be more aware that this stuff is going on. This stuff, this conversation and all these questions does go on. You know, there is going to be, like, legal action taken for it. I mean, just to know that people... people will stop doing it.

TOM BEARDEN: The SLDN says such harassment is common, and says the Pentagon isn't doing enough to stop it. But Undersecretary De Leon says the policy clearly does not tolerate harassment.

RUDY DE LEON: We're looking at each of the cases, but at the heart of our policy, as articulated by the Secretary of Defense, is our commitment to make sure that each service member has an opportunity to serve in an environment where they're not dealing with harassment, that they're serving in a very professional environment.

TOM BEARDEN: Gay rights advocates say the only way to be truly fair to everyone would be to allow gays to serve openly. This active-duty sailor says the policy forces him to live a lie, looking over his shoulder every hour of the day. He asked us to conceal his identity, because his remarks would end his career.

SAILOR: You've got to keep your walls up, because if you were to tell someone, you're not really sure if that individual will tell someone else, say it to the wrong person, and it will just explode in your face, regardless of how good a worker you are. After 11 years, I know when to speak, when not to speak, who I can talk to and who I can't, and what subjects to bring up in the group. I've learned to separate my personal life from my work life, completely and totally.

TOM BEARDEN: Would it be better to simply have people able to serve openly as gay people?

SAILOR: Absolutely. Absolutely. It would take a lot of stress out of the person's life, everybody's life in general. And hopefully, we're heading that way with the newer generation that's coming in the military.

TOM BEARDEN: Charles G. Cooper is a highly decorated retired three-star Marine Corps general. He disagrees with the sailor, and says allowing gays to serve openly would destroy morale and unit cohesiveness.

LT. GEN. CHARLES G. COOPER: Well, I don't agree with him at all. I don't think that we need him. He's not the kind of person that we need to defend our nation, because he's going to contaminate the rest of the population of the people that he's serving with. Now, he can tell you that he never practices his sexual mores with his shipmates, but he's going to practice them with somebody, and when he goes to sea for six months, and all he's got - people around are shipmates.

TOM BEARDEN: Steve Loomis served in the Army for nearly 20 years, received two bronze stars, a purple heart, a combat infantry badge, and other honors. But when the army found out this lieutenant colonel was gay, he was forced to leave the service. He says the general is wrong, and that the same standard needs to be applied to all members, regardless of their sexual orientation.

STEVE LOOMIS: Most gays, lesbians, bisexuals in the military keep their lives private. They are... in their relations, they are off-duty, off-post and entirely consensual. And that is the problem: If you are going to treat homosexuals for that, how can you justify not treating heterosexuals by the same standard? When you talk about good order and discipline, and morale of the troops, one of the worst things that you can do to any unit is to treat a portion of that unit differently. We know that to be true from the past experience that we've had in integrating blacks into the military and the experience of integrating women into the military, that both of those groups, when they were treated equally and by the same standards, they both came up to and exceeded the standard that anyone - most people ever expected for anybody in the military, let alone a minority group. I would submit to you that a number of gays, lesbians and bisexuals in the military have also had that achievement, but they of course, have had to remain private about that.

LT. GEN. CHARLES G. COOPER: If you're going to have a military that's rife with homosexuals, operating openly, I think your recruiting is going to be shot in the tail, really. I think particularly the Christian families, the good Catholic families, the people that stand for everything that's opposed to homosexuality, are not going to let their youngsters join and serve, and people that are in the service are not going to stay when they're subjected to this type of thing. We have a continuing struggle to bring in quality people into the military now, and the Marine Corps has been pretty successful, but we sell intangibles, and we sell brotherhood, pride, integrity, mutual support, unselfish pursuit of excellence. That doesn't allow any room for homosexual activity.

TOM BEARDEN: A recent study conducted by a consortium of universities found that 76 percent of people currently serving in the military oppose allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly; 27 percent said they would leave the military if that became permissible. But it would take an act of Congress to change the basic law that still forbids open homosexual conduct.

JIM LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight: the Syrians and the Israelis decide to talk peace and a memorial to firefighters.

FOCUS - PATH TO PEACE

JIM LEHRER: Israel and Syria head back to the bargaining table. Ray Suarez has that story.

RAY SUAREZ: Earlier this week, Secretary of State Albright headed to the Middle East for yet another round of peace talks. On Tuesday, she met with Syrian President Hafez Assad in Damascus, a day later after a session with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak in Jerusalem, she emerged optimistic about the prospects of a land-for-peace deal.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, Secretary of State: We have, in fact, I think, as I said, a greater sense of optimism because with our meetings both here and in Damascus, I have a sense that there's a desire to seize the moment.

RAY SUAREZ: And yesterday President Clinton announced that Israel and Syria would reopen talks after three years and try to resolve one of the most intractable of the MidEast disputes.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: The talks will be launched here in Washington next week. Prime Minister Barak and Foreign Minister Sharaa. After an initial round for one or two days they will return to the region and intensive negotiations will resume at a site to be determined soon thereafter.

RAY SUAREZ: It was only in 1995, years after many of the other warring parties in the MidEast had made peace, that Syria agreed to talk with Israel at a remote U.S. site. But the talks broke off a few months after the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in October of 1995. The diplomacy was frozen over contrasting interpretation of Rabin's offer to Syria before his death. Syrians said Rabin promised to return the Golan Heights which Israel seized from Syria in the 1967 MidEast war and later annexed. The Israelis countered that no such definitive promise had been made. President Clinton side- stepped that complication by saying the talks will be resumed from the point where they left off. The Israeli-Syrian diplomatic thaw began last spring when Barak became Israel's new prime minister. His election was greeted by favorable comments from Syria's President Assad and talks from both sides about breaking their impasse. The new prime minister also made a promise concerning Lebanon, the majority of which has been under Syrian control for 20 years. The Israelis currently occupy a small slice of the country, but Barak pledged a troop withdrawal from the territory by July 2000. Barak suggested that negotiations over Lebanon be coupled with the Golan Heights talks. So far there's no word whether this will happen. Following the Clinton announcement yesterday, Syrian President Assad pledged in a statement, quote, to exert all possible efforts to achieve a comprehensive and just peace in the region. For his part, Barak acknowledged today that upcoming negotiations won't be easy.

PRIME MINISTER EHUD BARAK, Israel: (speaking through interpreter) Assad is not Israeli. He was a bitter enemy in the battlefield and I don't assume that he will be an easy opponent around the negotiation table, but he is a strong leader. Only he can bring the peace in the name of the Syrian people and put an end to our state of war.

RAY SUAREZ: For more on the upcoming talks between Israel and Syria, we turn to Yitzhak Ben-Horin, Washington bureau chief for one of Israel's daily newspapers. "Ma'ariv," and Rashid Khalidi, director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago; he also served as an adviser to the Palestinian delegation during their talks with Israel. Yitzhak Ben-Horin, was this in the air? Was there any idea that something as surprising as yesterday's announcement was on its way?

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: First of all, I must tell you that I try to put faith like a professional journalist but first and foremost I am an Israeli, and I am very excited about what is going on now and a little bit nervous as well -- excited because our bitter enemy may be at last decide to go the road - you know -- for peace, comprehensive peace. At the same time we just want to see -- to realize if our security needs will match.

RAY SUAREZ: But was there any stirrings in diplomatic circles that this was about to come? Was there any domestic event that opened the door, made this possible?

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: First of all, I'm sure that everybody in Washington was surprised, including the Arab diplomats, Israeli diplomats. I believe that the Americans themselves, even Albright and her delegation, when they first decided to go to Damascus, they decided to shake the hands of Assad to realize if he is strong enough. They didn't even know if his health is good enough to go with the peace process. I believe that Assad surprised them, as always. He's a surprising man and he surprised them this time.

RAY SUAREZ: Professor Khalidi, all sides seem to have an interest in starting to move this morning forward and soon.

RASHID KHALIDI: I think all sides realize that they have a window opportunity that will close very quickly. The Syrian president clearly wants to settle this before the issue of the succession becomes a critical one. Prime minister Barak wants to settle it while he still has a mandate from the Israeli people. And I think that both sides realize that before the United States goes into the prolonged transition from one presidency to another, it would be very, very wise to get as much of this done as possible. So, I think there's a lot of pressure on all sides.

RAY SUAREZ: There have been several voices speaking out from Israel opposed to even the hint of returning the border to the River Galilee.

RASHID KHALIDI: To the Sea of Galilee.

RAY SUAREZ: To the Seat of Galilee. Excuse me. Does this cause problems before the talks even get underway?

RASHID KHALIDI: I think that there is something close to a consensus on all sides that if there is going to be peace in the Middle East there will have to be a return to the June 4th boundaries between Israel and Syria. I think those voices in Israel that oppose such a land-for-peace deal, in effect, are opposing peace. I think there's a solid majority behind the prime minister for peace and for the sacrifices from one point of view that this is going to entail. From the Syrian point of view too. I think everybody understands that there's going to have to be diplomatic relations between the two countries, reduction of forces, early warning stations. I think both sides understand the basic components of this deal and that there's a solid majority on both sides for a deal of that sort.

RAY SUAREZ: Yitzhak Ben-Horin, isn't this very different from the territories on the West Bank though? Unlike an occupied area, this was annexed, made part and parcel of Israel and now some 18,000 Israeli citizens live there.

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: It was not annexed to Israel. We put Israeli law, because there are 15,000 Israelis living there, so we put the law in order to allow them to live according to Israeli law, but there was not any annexation from this territory. Now we have to do two things, two obstacles that Prime Minister Barak will face: First one will be to get the majority of the Knesset, the Israeli parliament, namely 61 votes, it's enough for him to pass a resolution for peace and to give back the Golan Heights. Secondly, Barak promised the Israelis in the election that he will go to a referendum for peace with Syria and for peace with the Palestinians. He intends to do it. It looks like basically most of the Israelis are very much for the peace process. They are very tired of wars. If Barak will persuade the Israelis that it's a safe peace, they'll go for it.

RAY SUAREZ: But seeing pictures on television of settlements being emptied -- of people being returned to the rest of Israel is not palatable for any Israeli politician I would think.

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: You are talking about the Golan Heights?

RAY SUAREZ: Yes.

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: Most of the voters in the Golan Heights voted for Barak not for Netanyahu. Most of the settlers in the Golan Heights are people from the Labor Party. They are not... It's not the same right wing of the people in the West Bank. It's completely different kind of people. I don't see any major threat to the peace process from those guys.

RAY SUAREZ: Professor Khalidi, there's been a lot of talk about Israel and what it has to give in these negotiations. What does Syria have to give? Assad was the defense minister when the boundaries changed after the '67 war. You mentioned he wants to get some of this done for his own legacy. What's at stake for Syria?

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, the basic deal is land for peace. That's what 242 embodies. Syria will have to establish diplomatic relations with Israel. Syria will have to probably also accept a number of minor limitations on its sovereignty like reduction of forces agreements. These will be mutual. They may not be equal, however. There will have to be early warning stations of some sort and some international presence on Syrian soil. So Syria will have to bring to an end to the state of war with Israel -- will have to accept normal diplomatic relations with Israel and will - as I say -- have to accept some minor limitations on its sovereignty relating to the arrangements for the peace, but the pay-off is that finally after almost 33 years Syria will regain this territory that was occupied in 1967. I would agree with Mr. Ben-Horin. I think that the problem of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are more infinitely complicated than the problem of the Golan Heights and not just because of the settlers, because I think that in Israel there's closer to a national consensus that peace with the rest of the Arab world which is what peace with Syria means is worth giving up the Golan Heights. I'm not entirely sure that there is a consensus in Israel for the very difficult issues relating to refugees or Jerusalem or settlements or borders that are going to be involved where the West Bank and Gaza Strip are concerned.

RAY SUAREZ: We haven't talked about Lebanon yet. And I'm wondering how much peace with Syria holds the key to a wider, comprehensive peace that will build down the pressures on that border with Israel.

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: Let me comment and say that between Israel and Syria there are borders, the '67 borders and there are the '73 borders and it's two countries and it's quite easy to get along. With the Palestinians it's more complicated because there is no Palestinian state yet, never been a Palestinian state. There are no borders between the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are some Palestinians that are living in Israel proper so it's very complicated. Going to the Lebanon problem, Lebanon is an occupied territory by Syria. So I don't see any much problem for the Syrians to dictate peace with Israel. So I see very quite soon after the Israeli-Syrian negotiations, you can see a line of the Israeli-Lebanese process.

RAY SUAREZ: Professor Khalidi.

RASHID KHALIDI: There's one issue relating to Lebanon which is a broader issue. This is the issue of the Palestinian refugees. There are over 300,000 Palestinians in Lebanon who was driven out of Israel - driven out of Palestine in 1948 during the war as part of the creation of Israel. Their presence in Lebanon poses a serious, some people would say an existential problem for Lebanon. There's unanimity in Lebanon that it is unacceptable that this problem be resolved at the expense of Lebanon. The Palestinians agree. They desire the return of compensation as laid down in U.N. resolutions. And so while I agree the problem between Israel and Lebanon can be solved fairly easily with an Israeli withdrawal and a return to the international frontier, which both Lebanon and Israel accept, I don't think that it will be quite so easy because there is this issue of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. They are -- the Palestinian refugees are the 3.5 or 4 million living outside of what is now Israel and the occupied territories -- they're the Palestinian refugees in by far the most difficult circumstances.

RAY SUAREZ: Do you agree?

YITSHAK BEN-HORIN: Not at all. For Syria, even the Golan Heights is not the most important thing in this deal. The most important thing for Assad is if he's willing to lead his country in 19th the century, as, you know, in the past with North Korea or Cuba, whether he is willing or if he is willing at last to join the world, meaning the rest of the world. I believe he has come to the conclusion that he needs America and western investment in Syria, first and foremost, to get Syria out of the State Department. I think it is for the Syrians even more important than to get back the Golan Heights.

RAY SUAREZ: Yitzhak Ben-Horin, Rashid Khalidi, good to talk to you both.

FINALLY- FALLEN FIREFIGHTERS

JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight, a tribute to six firemen who died in the line of duty last week in Massachusetts. Spencer Michels reports.

SPENCER MICHELS: The six firemen were hailed as heroes at today's service held at an arena in Worcester. Thousands of firefighters from as far away as Ireland and Australia joined President Bill Clinton, and other officials at the ceremony. Four of the firemen had re- entered a smoke-filled warehouse in search of two of their colleagues. It was the worst disaster involving firefighters in six years. Businesses and schools in Worcester closed today. Children were asked to write essays on heroism, and they got help on the assignment from Worcester Mayor Raymond Mariano.

MAYOR RAYMOND MARIANO, Worcester, Massachusetts: If you are looking for hero or role model, you don't have to look far. You see, a hero isn't someone who hits home runs out of the park. A hero is an average citizen who does something extraordinary to help someone else in need. A hero is a firefighter who runs into a burning building, never once thinking of himself.

SPENCER MICHELS: It was an emotion-packed day for the thousands in attendance. President Clinton reached for biblical and historical references to console the families, friends and fellow firefighters.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: More than two and a half centuries ago, Benjamin Franklin wrote an essay entitled, "Brave Men at Fires." He might have written it last week. This is what he said: "Neither cold nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame, but they have a reward in themselves and they love one another." Today we honor six brave men who found a reward in fire-fighting, who loved one another; six men who, in turn, richly rewarded this community. So they hastened to the dreadful place to save others. For all six, being a firefighter was more than a job, it was in their blood. But when they went into that building that night, they were following their dream to serve, to save lives, and to stick together.

SPENCER MICHELS: At the end of the ceremony, each family was presented with a Medal of Honor and an American flag. Meanwhile, efforts to recover the remains of the four firefighters still missing continue at the site of the fire.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Thursday: U.S. officials said they'd caught a Russian diplomat spying on the State Department; and Russian President Yeltsin said he will not let the United States dictate his policy toward Chechnya. We'll see you on-line, and again here tomorrow evening with Shields and Gigot, among others. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.