The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

JIM LEHRER: Good evening, Leading the news this Monday, two passenger trains collided in a Paris, France, train station, President Reagan declared former aides John Polndexter and Oliver North innocent of any Iran-contra wrongdoing, An earthquake shook Northern California. And another Wall Street figure was accused of insider trading. We`ll have the details in our news summary in a moment, Charlayne Hunter-Gault is in New York tonight. Charlayne?

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: After the news summary we begin with Defense Secretary Carlucci`s first extended comments on the burgeoning Pentagon Procurement scandal. Then, on the eve of the first Soviet Communist Party conference since before World War II, Robert MacNeil talks with three key Soviets about what`s at stake. Business correspondent Paul Solman then reports on efforts to upgrade the cartoons kids watch on television. And finally, what`s the big deal about tonight`s Fight of the Century?

News Summary

HUNTER-GAULT: For the second time in as many days, there was a transportation tragedy in France. This evening, two suburban passenger trains collided at a Paris underground train station. At least four people were killed, another forty injured. An unknown number of passengers remain trapped inside the two trains. Police said the death toll is expected to rise. The accident occurred at the Gare de Lyons Station at the height of the evening rush hour. There was no immediate word on the cause.

Meanwhile, in Eastern France, investigators were looking for the causes of yesterday`s crash of a new Airbus airliner. Three persons died and 50 were hurt when the plane made a pass at an air show in Eastern France and plunged into a forest. Authorities today said the plane was flying much too low, and the most probably cause was pilot error. Jim?

LEHRER: In this country, President Reagan today came to the defense of his two former security aides, John Polndexter and Oliver North. He said they were innocent of criminal conspiracy and other Iran-contra charges pending against them. Mr. Reagan said it in response to a reporter`s question about the upcoming trials of Polndexter and North. The judge in the case has ordered the White House to speed up Us process of declassifying documents for the trial. Mr. Reagan was asked about that speeding up during a photo session with the President of Turkey.

REPORTER: Mr. President, your White House spokesman last week suggested that the White House favors pressing forward of trail dates in the Iran- contra matter. Do you think that you will instruct your aides to work quicker to declassify the material and if so, what`s your opinion on going to trial?

PRES. RONALD REAGAN: I would hope that we could. I believe in the innocence of the two men, and I would like to see that established once and for all.

LEHRER: There has been widespread speculation that if Poindexter and North are convicted Mr. Reagan will pardon them. Mr. Reagan himself has declined to join that speculation.

HUNTER-GAULT: Secretary of Defense Frank Carlucci made his first extensive public remarks today about the military procurement scandal. He made them during a speech at the National Press Club. Carlucci said he was disturbed by the charges and was doing everything possible to facilitate the Investigation, but he warned against a rush to judgment.

FRANK CARLUCCI: Secretary of Defense: I urge those who are ready now to condemn and abandon our entire procurement system to withhold judgment until the facts are in. And to keep in mind that no system can offer perfect protection against the human factor. There is simply no way to devise a system that is greed-proof. We must vigorously prosecute anyone guilty of betraying their honest colleagues and abusing the public trust for personal gain.

But we should wait until the facts are out before making judgments on the system.

LEHRER: The Supreme Court today ruled in favor of a defense contractor. The court refused to reinstate a $750,000 lawsuit against Sikorsky Aircraft and its parent company United Technologies. The suit was brought by the family of a Marine helicopter pilot who died in a 1983 crash. The suite sought damages on grounds the chopper was defectively designed. In a five to four decision the court said military equipment using a Pentagon-approved design are exempt from such lawsuits.

In another decision today, the Supreme Court made it more difficult to picket somebody`s house. In a six-to-three vote, the court approved a Wisconsin city ordinance that prohibits pickets in front or about a private residence. The court held that such a ban did not violate free speech rights. The case arose from the picketing of a doctor`s home by anti- abortion activists.

HUNTER-GAULT: President Reagan received a controversial report from his AIDS Commission today, and praised it for its thoroughness. But as expected he remained noncommittal on its call for legislation aimed at protecting AIDS sufferers from discrimination. White House Domestic Policy Advisor Gary Bauer said the administration was willing to take another look at the issue and keep an open mind. But he reiterated the administration`s contention that sufficient safeguards are already in place.

LEHRER: Wall Street was hit today with another insider trading case. The Securities and Exchange Commission charged a merger and acquisitions analyst with profiting from inside Information. The analyst it Steven Wang, Jr. He works for the Morgan Stanley Group. The SEC`s civil complaint accused Wang and a Hong Kong businessman of making $19 million in the deals. The suit wants Wang to return the $19 million, plus pay triple that amount in damages, SEC officials said it was the largest insider trading case to emerge since that against financier Ivan Boesky,

HUNTER-GAULT: A quake measuring at least 5.0 on the Richter scale, caused highrise buildings to sway in San Francisco today. There were no initial reports of damage or injuries, but commuter rail service in the Bay Area was briefly interrupted. The quake was felt over a large area of Northern California, from Santa Rosa, 60 miles north of San Francisco, to Santa Cruz, 70 miles to the south.

On the Mississippi River, barge traffic is moving again. Dredging freed a traffic jam of more than 1000 barges near St. Louis yesterday, But there`s a possibility relief may be only temporary. Authorities say the water level of the Mississippi has fallen faster than expected, and it could become impassable again.

While the water level was dropping, the barge jam has caused the grain level to rise on the streets of Mound City, Illinois. With river barges stranded and unable to carry grain, storage operators are finding themselves with a grain glut on their hands, Their solution? Put the grain glut on the streets.

LEHRER: The Soviet Communist Party will open its first party conference in 47 years tomorrow in Moscow, The conference will discuss sweeping proposals for economic and political reform. We have a report on how it will affect the people in one Soviet town by Brian Hanrahan of the BBC.

BRIAN HANRAHAN: Dmitrov is a small ancient town with a population of 160,000 people, and three delegates to the Communist Party Conference.

Light industry and agriculture provide the main sources of employment, and the main headaches. The town needs more investment and an improvement in the quality and range of foods on sale.

Dmitrov Is the personal fiefdom of Vladimir Novasayof, the local Communist First Secretary. Through his committees, he watches and influences everything that happens. But he pledges his support for the new policy of cutting back Communist Party control. He also supports Mr. Gorbachev`s policy of increasing democracy, but admits that he and the other two delegates were selected in the old-fashioned way: by consultations within the Party, a system that leaves Party bureaucrats in charge of the selection process.

MELOR STURUA: Izvestla; Some representatives of the Party think that they must decide for our agriculture, for our economy, for our ? newspapers- (unintelligible).

HANRAHAN: The red banners are Moscow`s traditional preparation for party gatherings. And the traditionalists have already won one important victory: only Mr. Gorbachev`s speeches wilt be shown live on television. The party of glasnost intends to edit everybody else`s speeches first.

HUNTER-GAULT: That`s our news summary. Still ahead, the Pentagon`s top man on the procurement scandal, Soviet views of the upcoming Party Conference, fine tuning TV cartoons, and tonight`s big fight.

On the Defense

LEHRER: First tonight, the Secretary of Defense on the Pentagon scandal. Secretary Carlucci had been scheduled to speak to the National Press Club In Washington about the recent Moscow summit. But the major topic turned out to be the criminal Investigation of some Pentagon officials for allegedly providing inside information to defense contractors and consultants in exchange for cash, Preas Club moderator Randy Allen asked if the Pentagon will reopen contracts involved in the investigation.

FRANK CARLUCCT: Secretary of Defense; I shouldn`t think it`d be necessary to have convictions before we act. If we`ve gotten sufficient evidence that a contract is tainted, we will take action to deal with that situation. What you do depends on the nature of the contract, how important the system is, what your alternatives, what are the termination liabilities, what kind of process do you have to go through?

To date, quite justifiably, U.S. Attorney Hudson has not provided me with even the names of people who were under Investigation, because he`s saving that information for the grand jury. So it`s totally impossible for us to make any judgments at this point on what contracts might be tainted. But If there are contracts tainted, we will take appropriate action to deal with it.

RANDY ALLEN: National Press Club: Consultants act as information brokers between arms contractors and arms purchasers. How essential is this role and can anothor group replace the consultants? Following that, what control, If any, does the Defense Department have over consultants whose fees add so much to the cost involved in defense procurements?

Sec. CARLUCCI: if I understand what the charges are, and once again I`ve not been, read into individual cases, what people are talking about here are consultants who work for the contractors. They`re not talking about consultants who work for the Department of Defense. Yes, we have a handle on consultants who work for us. Not to say that they`re 100% pure, but we do have certain controls which we exercise over those consultants, But we do not have any direct controls over the consultants who work for the defense contractors.

Mr. ALLEN: Can the Navy`s new $40 billion ATA fighter program move forward with the allegations pending against Mr. Paisley and McDonnell Douglas that the best and final offer was compromised?

Sec. CARLUCCI: Well, once again, until we have the evidence out, we do not know what contracts, If any, would be tainted. So it`d be premature for me to make a judgment on any contract. And until we do, it`s important that all our business go forward. We have to worry about the national security. If you begin to slow down contracts or stop them, in the absence of any evidence, then the cost escalates enormously. But as soon as we have the evidence, we will review the contracts and take appropriate action.

Mr. ALLEN: There have been two common reactions to the contracting investigation. One, that it`s basically symbolic of a system that is basically wrong, and two, it`s a result of too much money and too little DOD management. Would you comment on this?

Sec. CARLUCCI: Well, I just don`t know. I think as I said earlier there are some things in the system that need to be changed. Chronic instability being one. And it may be that one could tighten up on certain statutes. I`m not certain until the evidence is in. What I am arguing for is to withhold judgment until that evidence is in.

Let me only say that this is a system which has Improved markedly in recent years. I cited the example of cost overrun, Increase in competition. It`s a system that produced the kind of weapons that perform so remarkably in the Persian Gulf. It`s a system that is peopled by an enormous number of dedicated and honest employees. So we should not rush to condemn the system, There are always ways that you can Improve any system. But If you have bank embezzlement, you don`t suddenly condemn the banking system. You look a way to deal with those who are culpable.

I could claim that this has been a successful operation. And this administration put in a hot line. And it was a hot line that brought in the initial complaint. The Naval Investigator Service then went to work. And worked the problem. When the dimensions of it became clear, they called in the FBI. And the criminals are being caught, they`re being caught as rapidly as possible. And we need to deal with them vigorously. When the facts are in, we will review it in light of the system. But I wouldn`t, for one, would not condemn the system, entire system on the basis of what I know now. But let`s wait and see.

As far as the money is concerned, the interesting fact here is that if this has happened during the past two, two-and-a-half years, it`s been in a period of declining DOD budgets. Our budgets have been going down in real terms. Certainly there`s a lot of money out there. There`s a lot of money in many areas. But simply because you`ve got a lot of money doesn`t mean that the system can`t work. If there are deficiencies in the system we will correct them.

HUNTER-GAULT: Carlucci said a Defense Department task force would review evidence as it comes out and recommend if changes are needed in the Weapons Procurement System.

Still ahead, three Soviet views of tomorrow`s party conference, upgrading Saturday morning television, and tonight`s Fight of the Century.

On the Defense

HUNTER-GAULLT: We focus next on the forthcoming and extraordinary Communist Party Conference which opens tomorrow, the first since before World War II. In the Soviet Union and throughout much of the world, the meeting is being viewed as a landmark event. Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev whose official title is General Secretary of the Communist Party, has put most of his prestige on the line with proposals calling for significant changes In the way the country would be run. They include reducing the power of the party in government affairs and the daily life of the country; steps toward democratization, which could Include limiting terms of party of government officials, and electing those officials by secret ballot and multi- candidate elections; also strengthen an Independent judiciary; expanding civil liberties; and decentralizing the economy.

Five thousand delegates have come to Moscow to hear from their leaders and to debate the proposals, When Robin MacNeil was in Moscow earlier this month, he talked to three key figures in Soviet political life about the stakes involved in the conference, The first was Yadim Zagladin, First Deputy of the International Section of the Party`s Central Committee.

MacNEIL: Looking ahead to your special Party Conference, Mr. Gorbachev has said that it would give a second wind -- said this to the Washington Post a second wind to our plans and our work to implement the concept of perestrolka. Are you confident that the conference will give a second wind, and that critics will not stop it at the first breath?

VADIM ZAGLADIN: Soviet Central Committee [through translator]: Well, I am positively sure that the conference Is going to move much further and that there indeed will be a second wind. Of course, there is a lot of discussion In our country now, and that will reflect on the proceedings of the conference. There will be much discussion there. But yet the general sentiment - and this is quite obvious to me -- is in favor of further movement, is in favor of perestrolka, and that will be seen.

MacNEIL: Let us discuss further movement. Many people, ordinary people that we talk to, say it must be made irreversible, there`s no going back. Are measures going to be taken, proposed and voted at the conference to make it irreversible?

Mr. ZAGLADIN: (through translator]: I believe the conference will pursue a dual purpose. First would be conducting a critical review of what has been done in our country so far, and what corrections need to be made in order to move more successfully further. And the second purpose will be to provide guarantees that would make perestrolka irreversible.

And the main guarantee as we see it would be a democratization of all our society. That is, setting in motion precisely those people In the street that you`ve talked to, the masses of people, so that they would not just influence the policy of their country, but actually shape their policy, This would be the best guarantee of Irreversibility of perestrolka.

MacNEIL: Mr. Gorbachev has said more democracy for socialism is not just a slogan. There are rumors around that some quite radical, for the Soviet Union radical, proposals might be made. For instance, direct election of a Soviet president. Is anything as far-reaching as that contemplated?

Mr. ZAGLADIN: [through translator]: There will be a number of things that are pretty new for our society in these- for example things like separation of the functions between the state and the party, guarantees of genuine independence of the courts of judges, the prosecution and defense, and then limitation of terms in office for a number of officials. This may not, this all may not have been reflected in the documents that have been published so far, but I am sure that at the conference we will see a number of really new, radical and may be unexpected (unintelligible).

MacNEIL: Mr. Zagladin, thank you very much for joining us.

MacNEIL: The printed word was one of the best .barometers of political change in pre-revolutionary Russia. It still is. Before Gorbachev, the mass circulation weekly Ogonyok, meaning "Little Fire" was a bland cheerleader, Today it is one of the most radical publications, sold out within hours. It has published articles on the Stalin terror, begun the process of rehabilitating the revolutionary leader Nikolai Bukharin, killed by Stalin. Ogonyok published excerpts from the previously-banned Dr. Zhhago by Boris Pasternak, and the anti-Stalinist work Children of the Arbat by Anatoli Rybakov. Vitaly Korotich, a Ukrainian, is editor of the new Ogonyok, and ? delegate to the Party Conference.

MacNEIL: Your magazine has complained about the way delegates are being selected for the Party Conference. One infers from that you mean being packed with conservatives. Will they have a leader at the conference? Will they come out Into the open?

VITALY KOROTICH: Editor, "Ogonyok": No, they have no leader. But practically, in this country we have a lot of professional bureaucrats. Maybe ono to six, six working people must feed one bureaucrat. And of course, I think it`s necessary to elect delegates from working people. But bureaucrats want to be there, too. People elect their delegates, and send their lists to bureaucracy. Bureaucracy saying that it will be better of they elect themselves. And they note and write their names. And then we have terrible fight between those whom people need and between those whom bureaucracy want. And it`s terrible fight, terrible collision. But that`s I think the moment of democracy.

MacNEIL: Is perestrolka at risk in this conference?

Mr. KOROTICH: No. I think not. Because to fight against Gorbachev, It`s necessary to have constructive problem of this fight. Now nobody have this problem. It means that Gorbachev now is undefeatable. I think it possible to support him even for those who are against him. And sometimes It`s done this way: Now all they are collected around our dear Gorbachev without love, without believing in his ideas. But I think that Gorbachev must build his theme stronger, And he must help economic results. More and more. He must help not only fresh ideas, but fresh (unintelligible), too. It`s necessary.

MacNEIL: Vadlm Zagladin of the Central Committee told us that very radical proposals would be made at this conference to strengthen perestroika and carry it further. Do you believe that radical proposals will be made? They don`t appear very radical, as carried in the theses or proposals that have been published,

Mr. KOROTICH: Sometimes we proposed radical ideas, but I don`t know If will be radical for you. We want to limit the time of being on the highest governmental position. After ten years. Is It new for you? No. But Mr. Reagan said here that, "Why not? It`s necessary to be more." And I think that now in this country we are looking for the possibility of shortening the period of power for somebody. Five years period and you can be, you may be elected for terms only. And as I said, it`s looking through lists of party members, with kicking out of those who are against democratization. Then it`s (unintelligible) of free enterprises in this country. Little Ideas. But we must have law of guarantees for perestrolka. Because now a lot of things are kept only on Gorbachev`s personality. It`s nice, it`s a great personality. But we must have a law of guarantees.

MacNEIL: if Gorbachev were run over by a bus, it could end tomorrow?

Mr. KOROTICH: Of course. I would bless him, but I think that we must have law guarantees. We must have elected parllamentaries, we must have control about party bureaucracy. We must have more control about army people. We must give a lot more, glasnost practically, that`s the public system of control.

MacNEIL: Is there any prospect of a more open way for the public to be Involved in electing the General Secretary?

Mr. KOROTICH: Practically possible to do (unintelligible), It`s necessary to have more candidates, but necessary to start this experience of election from the lower level, from grassroots level Because if you`ll start to elect leaders in the regional party organization, of course It will come to the top. It`s impossible to start democracy from the top level. It`s necessary to rake it up from the bottom.

MacNEIL: The Party. There`s no intention to change the one party state?

Mr. KOROTICH: But now panty proposes, Gorbachev, to divide state functions and party functions. Party must remain Ideological system, and have nothing with industrial problems, with all those things. Its only leaders of society who use their right or rule, only through people, party members, who are in positions. But not in party committee and central committee, we have all sections, the same sections, we have departments, ministers. We have the same departments and party that we have ministers in government. And practically each minister depends upon party department of the same. Now party want to rule, but in a (unintelligible) way, not Indirect. Becauso sometimes it change. And not minister, but party functioned start to rule this kind- this sector of industry.

MacNEIL: So there`s no discussion of permitting other parties to challenge the Communist Party, or to run candidates from other parties.

Mr. KOROTICH: No. You see now even in frame of this only party, we have those who are for Gorbachev and who are against Gorbachev. It`s at least two parties. Then we have a lot of (unintelligible) of youth, of so-called (unintelligible) youth. I think it`s necessary to organize now something In kind of national (unintelligible). Of people who are supporting perestrolka, but they are not connected, collected Into one party group. It`s necessary to collect them around the idea of democratization. I think members of party may be in this organization too, because practically party (unintelligible), But you listen, the sounds of that train with paper for our magazine is going. And we publish article fighting for resist people, and as a level, that`s a stratum of bureaucracy, high bureaucracy who build their (unintelligible), They have everything, privilege system of education of medicine of everything, and they didn`t want to leave It. And main part of people in this country need changes. It`s really revolutionary situation,

MacNEIL: The government newspaper Izvestia, with a circulation of nearly ten million, has played an Important role in promoting Gorbachev`s perestrolka. It has become a rouckraker, using a large team of investigative journalists to expose corruption and abuses of power brought to their attention by the thousands of letters of complaint from ordinary citizens. Its deputy editor is Nikolai Efimov.

MacNEIL: Is perestrolka at risk at the party conference? Is the opposition strong enough and vocal enough to slow it down?

NIKOLAI EFIMOV: Deputy Editor, "Ixvestla"; I would say it`s strong enough, but I wouldn`t exaggerate Its force. It wouldn`t say It`s very vocal, although vocal enough. And still, according to the letters we get from our readers - and we get about 2,000 letters a day - according to many sociological researchers and polls they`ve done the last few months, absolute majority of our population support perestrolka, support Gorbachev, support completely. What we`ve done, what we`ve managed to do in the last three years, to change minds of people. Perestrolka brought how to say great expectation in mind of people. And not just expectation, great hope. And they see that perestrolka offers them not quick results. Perestrolka means a lot of things have to be done. A lot of problems have to be solved. A lot of difficulties have to pass. And I would say most of the people do understand this. But in spite of all the resistance, In spite of all the vocal things by people who resist perestrolka, they can offer nothing which would provide real alternative way to perestrolka. They can`t produce nothing.

MacNEIL: Docs glasnost, the new policy of openness, include the right to criticize perestrolka?

Mr. KFIMOV: Yes. And--

MacNEIL: They`re not afraid to use that-

Mr. EFIMOV: No. And you can find a lot of articles In our press. Some people, even criticize the whole idea of perestrolka, but mainly more people criticize some parts of perestrolka, some, the way we tackle the problems while doing the perestrolka, A lot of such articles.

MacNEIL: Your paper has been doing stories exposing habits of minds, habits of privilege that can form resistance to perestrolka. Can you give me an example?

Mr. EFIMOV: I would say the most important and we run rather persistently in our newspaper this line - the local authorities are trying to deprive state farm and collective farm, their ability to. do everything by their own decision. They try to put from apart the decision, what to do, when to do, and what to plow, where to plow and so on. And this habit is from the past, from I would say, So, 40 years ago past. And so we`re fighting. It`s very serious, I recently been in China. And I saw Chinese agriculture, they start economical reform ten years ago before us. And the secret of their success was to give the peasant freedom to do whatever the peasant wants to do. And I saw the results, magazine full of food, streets full of food and shops and so on. So this habit we are fighting.

MacNEIL: Can you give me some measure of how far you think the country`s gone in overcoming these obstacles? Has it gone 10%? Has it gone halfway?

Mr. EFIMOV: It`s difficult maybe at the moment to assess. And still very close, very close to conclusion, It`s been nearly past the line and we can say that perestrolka has become Irreversible.

MacNEIL: But they call, the pilot-

Mr. EFIMOV: You cannot stop it

MacNEIL: what pilots call the point of no return?

Mr. EFIMOV: YES, yes.

MacNEIL: You`re nearly past, but not quite?

Mr. EFIMOV: Well, nearly past, or just coming through the line.

MacNEIL: And what role will the Party Conference play?

Mr. EFIMOV: I would say the Party Conference may be we will demonstrate that we have passed it

Kid Vid

LEHRER: Next, a documentary report that asks the question, "Can Mighty Mouse save the day, or at least Saturday morning for network television?" Stay tuned as special business correspondent Paul Solman describes the trials and tribulations of an eccentric cartoonist and a network programmer.

PAUL SOLMAN: It`s Saturday morning kid vid, starring Alvin and the Chipmunks, Pop and the Smurfs, in short, animation for the masses.

For years, all three networks have pursued the same corporate strategy here: go for the most audience with the least common denominator, cute, obvious, inoffensive television.

It`s exactly the same strategy that corporate America has perfected for the past 30 years. Build a mass audience with a formula product. It worked and corporate America became rich and complacent. But American quality declined and American companies stopped taking risks. Small wonder that foreigners moved into almost every market, including here on Saturday morning.

Look at this, for example, the American TV version of the cartoon series "Dennis the Menace,"

DENNIS: Oh, my gosh, look who`s on this wanted poster. It`s Mr. Wilson.

SOLMAN: The real menace here may be to the art of original animation. And who takes much of the credit for this show? The Japanese. Just read the names. They can turn out rote cartoons far cheaper than Americans.

Networks used to make money with formula cartoons like this, but now the market Is flooded - on cable, UHF, wherever you turn the dial. And the networks have to share their audience with cartoons even less redeeming than theirs. There is even a network strategy under discussion to replace kid vid on Saturday morning with adult fare, the talk show formula that accompanies breakfast the rest of the week.

One network, however, CBS, is trying a different business strategy: Investing In risky, elaborately produced programs, trying to recover the lost audience with audacity, appealing to both kids and adults. Peewee`s Playhouse is a distinctly American, extremely expensive kid show, featuring quality techniques, such as clay animation. CBS Invested heavily and Peewee paid off. It was number one on Saturday morning after just a season, attracting kids and grownups alike.

And so this past year CBS built on its strategy for rescuing Saturday morning. [clip from Mighty Mouse]

SOLMAN: The new Mighty Mouse may not took as audacious as Peewee`s Playhouse, but it too has targeted an audience of all ages. The man behind the mouse Is an odd duck. Ralph Bakshi and his writer animators are hoping Mighty will be renewed after a first season of so-so ratings. The key meeting with CBS Is just a few hours off.

RALPH BAKSHI: Animator; Why don`t we do a show on Mighty Mouse at this point, right? With reading his reviews, right? Getting an agent and having all that whole thing come down, a real Hollywood thing. And then why don`t we do something about a piece of gum?

SOLMAN: The Bakshi bunch are discussing plots to pitch CBS for next season.

Mr. BAKSHI: You guys got any Ideas on gum?

WRITER/ANIMATOR: We could make him a character.

Mr. BAKSHI: Let`s hear about that.

WRITER /ANIMATOR: Call him Billy Gum Wad, he could live off somebody`s mouth. He`s a piece of gum, he`s got legs, a big smile, he runs around.

Mr. BAKSHI: You blow it up as a piece of bubble gum, you know, and it bursts. And what happens to the character? What`s his attitude?

WRITER /ANIMATOR: (unintelligible) obviously (laughter). [clip from Mighty Mouse]

SOLMAN: Now, CBS could easily slam the door on Mighty. Costing one-quarter of a million dollars per episode to produce, the redoubtable rodent is losing money for the network. So the business tension Is between CBS nursing the long term health of a new quality product, or as has been more typical in American industry in recent years, simply focusing on today`s bottom line. And since It doesn`t look too good, putting Mighty to sleep.

You have to admit, though, that given Bakshi`s past, investing big in him would seem to be taking a real chance. Bakshi`s first film back In the `60s was Fritz the Cat, an X rated drug drenched feature, whose juiciest scenes we still can`t show you 20 years after they were made.

Mr. BAKSHI: What I went up against what people thought animation should be, what animation was only for children, since you-know-who, you know. But it was only done a certain way, you know. Just because 1 had an animated character enter Greenwich Village and start looking at chicks, as opposed to rabbits, you know, all hell broke loose.

SOLMAN: As Bakshi made clear in his autobiographical feature, Heavy Traffic, as a young cartoonist he was committed to seamy realism, not exactly Saturday morning fare.

But as network TV began to lose its audience, CBS decided to take a chance. First on Peewee Herman, then on Ralph Bakshi, toned down of course.

In just three more hours, Bakshi`s studio will find out how the network feels about its investment as season one comes to in end.

Mr. BAKSHI: What about Mighty Mouse becoming a star, you think that`s too cliche reading his own roviews? How do we do that? Getting agents?

WRITER/ANIMATOR: (unintelligible)`s writing reviews for him that he`s reading and not even knowing- he thinks everybody still loves him and everybody really hates him.

WRITER/ANIMATOR: He`s believing his stuff, right?

Mr. BAKSHI: What do you think? Give me your first reaction.

WRITER/ANIMATOR: Blah!

SOLMAN: Blah, okay. It doesn`t sound as good as Billy Gum Wad, man. It really sounds tike I`ve seen this movie.

WRITER/ANIMATOR: Let`s just scrap Mighty Mouse next year, it`s the Billy Gum Was Show.

SOLMAN: What makes you think we`re gonna be on next year? You guys are reading your reviews, right?

SOLMAN: Mighty Mouse has gotten rave reviews from those who care about Quality kid vid. Peggy Charren, head of Action for Children`s Television in Cambridge, Massachusetts, is a real fan.

PEGGY CHARREN: Action for Children`s Television! You can tell that Mighty Mouse is a good program, because as an adult when you sit down to watch it, you want to watch It through to the end.

When children`s stuff is wonderful, it works, for adults too. Mighty Mouse uses words, you can see that there`s a writer in the show. It has a point to make In the funny, slightly satiric, but not hard-edged satiric, kind of soft satire. And the pictures are fun to look at.

SOLMAN: But Peggy Charrea`s enthusiasm isn`t enough. It`s the ratings that count, and Mighty Mouse is third in his time slot. [clip from Mighty Mouse]

SOLMAN: If Mighty Mouse isn`t able to hold on for another season, Bakshi and his boys may join the ever-increasing crowd of animators looking for work, work which is hard to come by in the American cartoon Industry these days. Most of the jobs have migrated abroad, and many old guard studios are nearly deserted.

In fact, the only cartoon jobs in America not threatened are the American voices In the sound studio. Well, the pablum of the past may no longer spell success, but will the financially strapped networks really invest in innovation?

Mr. BAKSHI: I`m having a meeting with Judy Price this afternoon to let her know when new development is coming in, Fit throw the Billy Gum Wad story at her to let her know that we`re still thinking about it And try to find out whether we`re going to get picked up for next season.

SOLMAN: Price is head of Children`s programming at CBS.

WRITER/ANIMATOR: Do you think Judy is gonna let us do what we think- the kind of show that we want to do7 Or is It gonna be another one of these things where you`re getting a lot of guidelines and suggestions-

Mr. BAKSHI: You`re so paranoid. She let us do the show we wanted to do, why would it change? That`s your paranoia running wild again.

WRITER /ANIMATOR: We don`t have the ratings.

SOLMAN: Oh, yeah, the ratings. The CBS Corporation is losing money. Saturday morning kid vid could be a thing of the past. Bakshi`s troops may be playing to the camera In mock despair, but the feeling is real, How much time and money can CBS afford to invest these days before It sees a payoff.

WRITER / ANIMATOR: Ralph, we thought you were Our uncle.

SOLMAN: And so finally we`re on the road with Ralph, heading for his meeting with CBS`s Children`s Chief Judy Price. I ask how he feels.

Mr. BAKSHI: Total helplessness, I mean, there`s nothing you can do. Which is why I always hope she had the drink, I mean, It`d be nice if she had a drink, you know, I`d grub some cigarettes off of her, end If I get that far with her, I`d call It a complete victory,

JUDY PRICE: So you`re finally back from New York. I missed you. Come on in.

SOLMAN: A show biz hello between the Bohemian artist and the bottom line executive. But each has won the other`s respect. After all, in this age of the fast buck, Ralph knows that Judy Price may be the only hope for quality on Saturday morning.

JUDY PRICE: CBS: Did you bring your development with you?

Mr. BAKSHI: Basically what I have is the new project, character designs and the story bible. They`re pretty much complete.

SOLMAN: Bakshi`s dream Is to remake Saturday morning. But first he has to keep Mighty alive.

Mr. PRICE: But it Is the only show that stands a chance of renewal, It`s based on the quality, and you`ve got to now get the kids. Which means a little softer and warmer.

Mr. BAKSHI: Warmer?

Mr. PRICE: Warmer. I want heart.

SOLMAN: Price is torn. Between the comforts of the old formula and the risks of a Ralph Bakshi,

Mr. BAKSHI: We try to deliver your kids if it doesn`t talk down to them and make it, turn It into some sort of mush, because I don`t think you want that either,

Mr. PRICE: No, I want quality, and I want quality that`s kind of a hit. I mean, is that too much to ask? Because success is measured by how effective you are with an audience, You could have the best show in the world and if it doesn`t reach, isn`t effective with an audience, it`s not a successful show.

Mr. BAKSHI: Wrong.

Mr. Price: True.

SOLMAN: In fact it`s not clear who`s right or wrong here. In the current short term environment, CBS can`t really afford to keep investing indefinitely in a show that hasn`t yet found its audience, no matter how clever it is. But here comes Ralph to save the day. By persuading Judy Price to buy Mighty Mouse for at least one more season.

Mr. BAKSHI: If you consistently strive for quality you will eventually get all the success you need,

Mr. PRICE: I agree with you.

Mr. BAKSHI: That`s what we did -- one season.

Mr. PRICE: Yes, quality does end up begetting success over time.

Mr. BAKSHI: And we went another season--

Mr. PRICE: To make a good product you`re going to end up with it, you know, finding its audience.

SOLMAN: But let`s face it. It often takes time to build an audience for quality programming, whether it`s Mighty Mouse, or even what became the most profitable show in TV history, 60 Minutes. And no matter how Chummy Bakshi and Price become, it`s unlikely CBS will ever give Mighty the years and years it took before 60 Minutes finally turned a profit.

In this short term world, Mighty lucky to be getting a second season. Even the Mouse of Steel can face powers beyond his control. If he fails next fail, he`s history. And in the long run, network kid vid on Saturday morning might follow him down.

Ring of Gold

[Commercial for Tyson/Spinks fight]

HUNTER-GAULT: As commercials like that have been heralding, tonight`s the night. Reigning boxing champion Mike Tyson meets challenger Michael Spinks at the long-awaited and heavily hyped heavyweight championship in Atlantic City. Called the fight of the century, it`s expected to bring in as much as $100 million in revenues. That also makes it the biggest single moneymaking sports event of all time.

Last year`s big championship fight, the Marvin Hagler, Sugar Ray Leonard bout was worth only $57 million, according to Sports, Inc. Magazine. For challenger Spinks, revenues for his night`s work comes to $13.5 million, win or lose. The undefeated Mike Tyson will command anywhere between $15 and $22 million.

Here to explain why so many people are willing to spend so much money on this one event is Steven Robinson, the boxing editor for Sports Illustrated Magazine. Steve, what`s the big deal on tonight`s fight? I mean, how different is it from all the other fights of the century?

STEVE ROBINSON: Well, it`s this year`s fight of the century. And next year there`ll be another fight of the century. I think that what happens with fights, what makes a fight like this so important and why It attracts so many people`s attention, not only people who care about boxing, Is nothing can compare to a big fight in terms of the buildup and the heat that`s generated by this. People wait for months. There`s a buildup to it. It`s not three out of five, it`s not four out of seven. It`s one fight, it`s twelve rounds, three minutes apiece, of two guys stripped just to their shorts and shoes, going at .each other. And I don`t think any other sports event could compare to that.

HUNTER- GAULT: Not even the Super Bowl

Mr. ROBINSON: The Super Bowl Is at the end of a long season, and I think there`s a lot of people- the Super Bowl attracts an enormous amount of interest, obviously. A hundred million people in this country alone or something like that, watch it. But it`s not the same kind of anticipation. I think perhaps because it comes at the end of a long season. And in many cases over the years it`s been kind of disappointing. And I think people realize that these are the two best guys in the world at what they do.

HUNTER-GAULT: How can one sporting event, though, generate so much money? I mean, Just what are the mechanics of it? Where is all the money coming from?

Mr. ROBINSON: In this particular fight it`s very interesting what`s happened. A couple of things have happened to fighting recently. One of the casinos, Atlantic City, it`s very difficult, for instance, for a place like Madison Square Garden to put up the kind of money for a fight. Mike Tyson Is from Brooklyn, and he`s expressed at various times kind of a sentimental Interest In fighting In his hometown and fighting In Madison Square Garden. But Donald Trump, for instance, down in Atlantic City, this is about the fourth big fight he will have put on. What he`s got around him are not only his own gaining tables, but all the other gaming tables arrayed along the Boardwalk. He can put up $11 million as the site fee for the fight. And he may not even make that at the gate. But what he will make at the tables and what the other casino operators will make at the tables Is staggering. Probably twice as much over this weekend as they might over a comparable weekend.

One of the reasons, for instance, that this fight is on a Monday night Is because the casinos know that they`ll get the high rollers in there for Friday night and that they`ll gamble and eat and drink for three nights, leading up to the fight So that even If someone like Donald Trump loses in the arena, In the seats, he`ll make it up at the tables. The second thing that`s happened is the pay per view phenomenon, which is growing a great deal.

HUNTER-GAULT: Pay for view?

Mr. ROBINSON: Pay for view. Homes which are wired for cable, and have in one of those wonderful cable words, have addressibility, I think is what they call it. You can purchase the fight, and I think it`s an average of about $35 this time around, you call up your cable company and you say that you want to pay for the fight, and they will push a button and it comes right into your home. Two things have happened. Obviously this event is- the fight itself won`t happen until 11:00 or 11:15. There are not a lot of people who, unless we`re not real fight fans, will go out to see an event at that hour, but if you can sit In your home, invite four or five friends over and get a couple of pizzas and a few six-packs, it`s a pretty good deal,

HUNTER-GAULT: But you can`t see that fight tonight, can you?

Mr. ROBINSON: Absolutely.

HUNTER-GAULT: In your home.

Mr. ROBINSON: In your own home. And In many cases, some of the cable systems, if you`ve been asleep for two weeks and you wake up and all of a sudden you realize, my goodness, I forgot to ask my cable company to put it in my home, some of the cable companies can deliver the fight into your home, even if you call as late as 8:00 tonight.

HUNTER-GAULT: And so what kind of money is coming from that whole-

Mr. ROBINSON: Well, just to give you an example of what this means. The cable people, pay per view, says that If they show a movie or they show a concert or a sporting event, that of the sets of the homes that have this pay per view capability, if between three and five percent of them order It, that show, whatever it Is, will be profitable. Ten percent it`s just Green City. People start taking early retirement. There are some, for instance here in suburban New York, one of the local cable companies Is reporting response at something like 30% of all their available subscribers are asking for that fight. I mean, that`s huge, that`s enormous.

HUNTER.GAULT: You were telling me a few minutes ago, though, that there were still teats at ringside that are not sold.

Mr. ROBINSON: There are apparently some seats still at ringside. Now, I don`t know whether they`re holding seats open for important folks who might want to call up later and decide they want to go down. My suspicion is that those seats will be filled by the time of the fight.

HUNTER-GAULT: At what per?

Mr. ROBINSON: The ringside seats are $1500. And there are seats farther back that are $1000. I believe the cheapest ticket is $100.

HUNTER-GAULT: How much of this, the hype and everything else, has to do with the two contenders? I mean an awful lot particularly has been focused on Tyson. Time Magazine called him, you know, the essence of brutality or something like that. That may not be the exact quote. There`s been a lot written about Tyson and his movie star, television star girlfriend Robin Gibbs. I mean, how much of it has to do with the personalities?

Mr. ROBINSON: Any fight depends upon the public becoming aware of the fighters as more than just boxers. I think the hype, or the buildup for any fight depends upon people getting to know something about the fighter that either gives him a rooting interest or a sense that the fight is more than just two guys getting in and slugging it out with one another,

Tyson is a fascinating character. He was taken at a very young age by Costimado, who`s a legendary trainer, grew up in Brownsville, Brooklyn, and was taken I think from the time he was 12 or 13, and really made into a boxer. I mean, that`s what his life has been all about. Michael Spinks Is an interesting case. An Olympic fighter who started, won the Olympic title at 165 pounds, has worked his way up through the ranks as first a light heavyweight, where he was undefeated, and now as a heavyweight. And he has sort of the underdog persona in this fight. And he`s never gotten the respect that he figures he should be afforded.

And In many ways, what`s interesting about this fight is it`s the first real test for both of them. In Spinks` case, the first real test as a heavyweight,

HUNTER-GAULT: Do you think people are interested in this fight who aren`t interested in boxing or is it mainly boxing folks?

Mr. ROBINSON: I think so. I think a heavyweight fight of this magnitude, I think even If it`s just folks hearing their co-workers around the office talking about it, yeah, I think people are. I think that a fight, as opposed to, say, a World Series, or the Super Bowl, obviously it`s more interesting If you are a fight afficionado, if you can understand what they`re doing. If you understand the strategy.

HUNTER-GAULT: But if you don`t?

Mr. ROBINSON: But if you don`t, boxing Is still- it`s so elemental that you don`t really have to know a lot about what they`re doing to understand It. And be riveted by it

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, all the experts say it`s not going to go very long and there`s no doubt about who the winner is going to be. What`s your-

Mr. ROBINSON: Well, that`s what makes fights interesting, Sometimes all the experts can be wrong. In this case I don`t think they are wrong. I suspect that the fight won`t go five rounds. I think Tyson is gonna win pretty early.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, given the amount of money that`s involved, which you heard me talk about a few moments ago, I mean, can there really be a real loser?

Mr. ROBINSON: I don`t think so. There really can`t unless someone who feels like he plunked down $1500 for a ringside seat and just about got settled on the cushion and the fight is over, But, no, I don`t think anybody can lose, And the money`s in the bank, the money`s been paid. At this point, as you said, Spinks has been guaranteed $13.5 million. Tyson`s take depends on how many people, right up until fight time, I mean, those box offices will be open. How many people will plunk down their money to go in there and see the fight? No, there are no losers in this one.

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, we`ll see tomorrow. Thank you so much, Steve Robinson for being with us.

Recap

LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Monday. Four were killed, at least 40 injured In a collision between two passenger trains at a Paris, France, train station. The toll ii expected to rise further as the bodies of others trapped In the two trains are recovered. President Reagan said his former aides, John Polndexter and Oliver North were innocent and he expected their trials to establish that. And the Securities and Exchange Commission accused a 24-year-old Wall Street analyst of making $19 million from illegal insider trading. Officials said the case was second in size only to the Ivan Boesky insider trading scandal. Good night, Charlayne.

HUNTER-GAULT: Good night, Jim, That`s our NewsHour for tonight. We`ll be back tomorrow. I`m Charlayne Hunter-Gault Thank you and good night.