The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, full coverage of Vice President Gore's choice of Senator Lieberman as his running mate-- that includes analysis by Mark Shields and Paul Gigot; Ray Suarez then updates the fires across the West; and we close with a tribute to the late Alec Guinness. It all follows our summary of the news this Monday.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: Vice President Gore chose Senator Joe Lieberman to be his running mate today. The offer came in a telephone call, and Lieberman said he accepted. The official announcement is tomorrow. Lieberman will be the first Jewish Vice Presidential candidate. He's a two-term Senator from Connecticut who's considered a moderate. He described the Gore phone call at his New Haven, Connecticut, home

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: He said, "Joe?" And I said, "yes?" And he said, "I want to ask you if you would honor me by being my running mate this year." And I said, "believe me, it's me who's honored and grateful and proud and excited and ready to go to work because I believe in you, Al Gore, to make you the next President."

JIM LEHRER: Two years ago, Lieberman was the first Democratic Senator to denounce President Clinton's behavior in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. The Bush campaign said in a statement Lieberman was a good man. It also said he was closer to Bush's positions on the issues than to Gore's. We'll have more on this story right after the News Summary. Governor Bush was back in Texas today after a train tour of the Midwest with his running mate, Dick Cheney. Bush's next swing will be through the West with his former rival, Senator john McCain. More than 60 major wildfires continued to burn across 11 western states today. One of the worst forced hundreds of people to leave their homes in Montana's Bitterroot Valley. It burned eight houses and threatened hundreds more. All told, this is the nation's worst fire season in 50 years. We'll have more on this story later in the program tonight. This was day two of a strike against the nation's largest local telephone company, Verizon Communications. 87,000 employees were off the job in 12 Eastern states. That's one-third of the company's work force. The dispute centers on job security and wages. The company said basic service was largely unaffected so far. Verizon was formed in June by the merger of Bell Atlantic and GTE. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to Lieberman for Vice President; Shields and Gigot; the fires in the West; and Alec Guinness as Colonel Nicholson and George Smiley.

FOCUS - THE RUNNING MATE

JIM LEHRER: Gore picks Lieberman: Kwame Holman begins our coverage.

KWAME HOLMAN: Joseph Lieberman's appearance this morning before the Connecticut AFL-CIO Convention in Hartford was scheduled well in advance, but the news the state's junior Democratic Senator is Al Gore's pick for running mate was just a few hours old.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: You know, a funny thing happened to me today on my way to the state AFL-CIO Convention today...

KWAME HOLMAN: Lieberman said he'd not yet received the official word.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: All I know honestly at this moment is what I've heard on the media. The call hasn't come through yet, but, John, if the phone rings, I hope you'll interrupt me. (Laughter)

KWAME HOLMAN: Nonetheless, Lieberman used the moment to criticize the Republicans.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: When working people look for a helping hand from the other party and the other ticket, they too often will receive the back of the hand.

KWAME HOLMAN: Joseph Isadore Lieberman is 58 years old. Once divorced, he's been married to second wife Hadassah for 17 years. He has four children and two grandchildren. In 1988, Lieberman was the upset winner in a close U.S. Senate race, defeating incumbent Connecticut Senator Lowell Weicker. Six years later, Lieberman cruised to reelection with an overwhelming tally over his Republican challenger. As an Orthodox Jew, Lieberman does not travel, write, use electricity or engage in political activity on the Sabbath, from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. He is the first Jew to run on a major party presidential ticket. During his Senate tenure, Lieberman established himself as a moderate and influential voice in Washington. He was one of a handful of Democratic Senators to back the Gulf War resolution in 1991, and he was a strong supporter of the Clinton administration's efforts in last year's Kosovo campaign. Since 1995, Lieberman has chaired the Democratic Leadership Council, the centrist Democratic Party group that Al Gore helped create and Bill Clinton used to help launch his 1992 presidential campaign. Lieberman supported such new Democrat initiatives as welfare reform and tax breaks for small businesses, but also allied himself with social conservatives on some issues. He co-sponsored the law that requires the v-chip to be installed in new televisions, allowing parents to block objectionable programming. And he condemned the entertainment industry for marketing artists who use violent or sexually explicit material.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: If we want a safer, saner culture, we've got to clearly and loudly ask the people who shape it how many more kids must be slaughtered before we wake up to our shared responsibility to protect them from harmful influences on screen and off. We have to ask them, particularly the companies making money from the public airwaves, how are they serving the public interest by flooding them with conscienceless killing and demeaning sleaze.

KWAME HOLMAN: Lieberman's best-known stand came early in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. He was the first Democratic Senator to denounce president Clinton's behavior with the White House intern.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: No matter how much the President or others may wish to compartmentalize the different spheres of his life, the inescapable truth is that the President's private conduct can and often does have profound public consequences. In this case, the President apparently had extramarital relations with an employee half his age, and did so in the workplace, in the vicinity of the Oval Office. Such behavior is not just inappropriate, it is immoral and it is harmful, for it sends a message of what is acceptable behavior to the larger American family, particularly to our children, which is as influential as the negative messages communicated by the entertainment culture.

KWAME HOLMAN: Ultimately, however, Lieberman joined the Senate majority in voting down both articles of impeachment of the President. At the AFL-CIO event this morning, Lieberman spoke about the Vice President.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN: I know Al Gore well. I've known him for 15 years, and I can tell you that he is without a doubt a more qualified, more honorable, more intelligent, more progressive, more hard-working candidate for this high office. We have somebody ready to assume the presidency and the awesome responsibilities that come with it. Al Gore has, after all, not only had a great record before the last eight years, but during the last eight years; served as a full partner with the President in this administration, helping to shape this country's economic policy and growth, its social policy and advances, its foreign policy; and strengthened... and has fought for working families, making the federal government work better for the American people.

KWAME HOLMAN: Vice President Gore called Lieberman at midday, offered him the job of running mate, and Lieberman accepted. Late this afternoon, Senator Lieberman boarded a plane bound for Nashville, Tennessee, for the formal unveiling of the Democratic presidential ticket will come at a rally tomorrow.

JIM LEHRER: Gwen Ifill takes it from there.

GWEN IFILL: Now, we hear from three people who have worked closely with the Senator over the years. Al from is executive director of the Democratic Leadership Council. Senator Lieberman has chaired the DLC since 1995. And they're joined by retired Republican Senator Dan Coats of Indiana; he served with Senator Lieberman on the Armed Services Committee. We expect to be joined shortly by Sam Gejdenson, a Connecticut Democrat who has served ten terms in the House and obviously is a colleague of Senator Lieberman's.

Al From, when Joe Lieberman was asked to join the ticket, his response was miracles happen. Is this a miracle?

AL FROM, Democratic Leadership Council: Well, I think it's a wonderful thing. I think it's a bold choice on the part of Vice President Gore. I think it's good for the country. I think it's good for the Democratic Party. And I think it's going to be terrific for the Gore-Lieberman ticket.

GWEN IFILL: Dan Coats?

FORMER SEN. DAN COATS: First of all, Joe Lieberman's a terrific fellow, and I'm a good friend. It's hard to say anything negative about him, but I do think it raises the question about Al Gore, why he chose Joe Lieberman, because their positions on some of the key issues in this campaign, Social Security reform, education, national defense, Joe Lieberman's much closer to George Bush than he is to Al Gore and how he's going to finesse that or answer that I'm not exactly sure. And how Al Gore's going to explain that, whether it's another attempt to reinvent Al Gore or another attempt to cover both sides of the issue I think is going to be a question, because there are very fundamental issues where Al Gore has attacked Governor Bush for taking that position, and yet it's exactly the same position or very close to what Joe Lieberman has done and said on the Senate floor.

GWEN IFILL: In your years with working with Senator Lieberman in the Senate, do you think these issues conflicts as you describe them would be a problem for the Gore-Lieberman ticket?

FORMER SEN. DAN COATS: I think it's a problem for Al Gore in explaining why his vice presidential choice has chosen positions that are very close to what George Bush is espousing and yet Al Gore has attacked already on the stump. I'm not sure how they're going to handle that problem.

AL FROM: Let me just say that there are two parts to the answer to Senator Coats' question. One, he's wrong on a lot of things. And second...

GWEN IFILL: Senator Coats or Senator Lieberman?

AL FROM: Senator Coats. On the fundamental issues, Senator Lieberman and Vice President Gore are together. Secondly, one of the things that shows is that the Vice President has... it has the capacity and the leadership and the confidence to pick somebody who is known for his independence, known for his integrity, who may in some instances have different opinions than he does on the issues. But let's look at the big issues: On taxes, on the federal budget, Joe Lieberman, like Vice President Gore, wants the pay down the debt in 12 years. George Bush wants to have a big tax cut. On Social Security, Joe Lieberman supports Al Gore's position of Social Security plus. He believes that we ought to save the Social Security system by paying down the debt, and then on top of that, have optional private accounts that would be on top of Social Security. Not taking the private accounts out of the payroll tax. So on that issue, Joe Lieberman is with Al Gore.

GWEN IFILL: What about vouchers?

AL FROM: Joe Lieberman has...

GWEN IFILL: School vouchers.

AL FROM: Joe Lieberman has supported experiments with school vouchers in the District of Columbia, but his fundamental position on education is the same as Al Gore's. It's to invest more and to demand more.

GWEN IFILL: Isn't that entire different, the vouchers issue, from where Al Gore stands?

AL FROM: The Vice President opposes vouchers, and Lieberman...the Gore-Lieberman ticket will oppose vouchers. As I said, this is an indication, I think, of the Vice President's willingness to pick somebody who is an independent thinker, who will add to the ticket, but in the end, it's the Vice President's position that will prevail.

GWEN IFILL: Senator Coats, how independent a figure is he really? He supports abortion rights. He supports gun control. He's voted for tax increases.

FORMER SEN. DAN COATS: Well, as I said, on the fundamental issues of this campaign, Social Security, the privatization aspect of it, to allow individuals to set up private savings accounts, that is a position that Joe Lieberman and Governor Bush have taken. National defense, national missile defense, there's a big difference between Joe Lieberman's positions -- I served with him on the Armed Services Committee -- and Vice President Gore. Joe Lieberman is much more supportive of a national missile defense. On education, one of the fundamental issues of this particular campaign, Joe Lieberman was my Democrat cosponsor on the entire voucher fight, trying to provide opportunities for people in low-income neighborhoods, particularly minorities, to have an opportunity to get out of a failing public school, using a scholarship to get to a private school. We tried every which way possible to try to break the monopoly of the education establishment. They were denied. Joe Lieberman took very courageous and passionate, pleading stands with his colleagues in an attempt to try to convince them that we ought to reach out to these minorities. And yet, Al Gore was part of the Clinton-Gore effort to stop us, and they did stop us.

GWEN IFILL: Congressman Sam Gejdenson joins us from New York.

Can you tell us a bit about your experience with Joe Lieberman. You've worked with him as a colleague in Connecticut over the years. What kind of a pick do you think this is?

REP. SAM GEJDENSON: It's a great pick. I think it really distinguishes the two campaigns. George W. Bush picked somebody from his father's presidency. It goes to the past. Al Gore looks to the future. He picks Joe Lieberman, one of the brightest members of the United States Congress. He's a very hard worker. He builds coalitions. And I think the fact that there are some differences between Al Gore and Joe Lieberman shows the strength of this presidential candidate. And remember, Joe Lieberman is a centrist. Unlike Dick Cheney, who is a very nice man, he's on the right wing even of the Republican Party, voting to not ban plastic guns, voting not to ban armor-piercing bullets. Joe Lieberman is a true centrist; he's a consensus builder. He really speaks to the difference between George W. Bush and Al Gore. Al Gore has demonstrated in his first act in his run for the presidency how broad his appeal will be and the confidence he has in his own positions by picking somebody -- the first Jewish candidate people talk about a lot. This is somebody who worked his way up from the bottom. His father ran a small store. He got to Yale on his own. He got great grades at Yale. He was head of the paper at Yale. This is somebody who graduated near the top of his class as a young man -- takes on the political establishment, ends up in the state Senate.

GWEN IFILL: Congressman, let me try something on you. How will he be against Dick Cheney? Neither of these two vice presidential candidates are known as spark plugs.

REP. SAM GEJDENSON: Let me tell you -- I think it's the one place the press has underestimated Joe Lieberman. He's gotten a great reception today, but people write him off as not an energetic debater. I think he has a little different style than the old fiery orator, but he is very smart. He's very sharp. And he has a niceness about him that's going to be very successful in debates. Both Mr. Cheney and Mr. Lieberman, Senator Lieberman, are very nice people. So that's going to work to both their advantages, but I tell you, I wouldn't want to debate Joe Lieberman. He may be more quiet than some, but he's a brilliant debater.

GWEN IFILL: Al From, obviously Joe Lieberman is known best for the speech he gave on the Senate floor, great distance between himself and a lot of Democrats and the behavior of Bill Clinton during the impeachment saga. Do you think that he's nice, as Congressman Gejdenson has been saying?

AL FROM: I think Joe Lieberman is a wonderful man, he's a man who lives his values. And what he did is he criticized President Clinton when President Clinton was wrong. But he also stood with President Clinton when the Republican Congress went overboard and tried to impeach him when they were wrong. So he is a man of independence and integrity.

GWEN IFILL: Does it help the Democratic ticket to have someone who is part of it who criticized the President?

AL FROM: He criticized the President when the President was wrong. And he has been a partner of the President in the incredible accomplishments of this administration. And, you know, I think it is very helpful to have somebody on the Democratic ticket who runs on the record of the Clinton-Gore administration because that is an incredible record. You know, if you listen to the Republicans in Philadelphia, you'd think this prosperity just sort of materialized out of thin air. But, don't forget, when we took office in 1992, unemployment was over 7%. Inflation was higher. Wages were and incomes were going down, poverty was going up, welfare was exploding. Crime was high. All those things were turned around with the Clinton-Gore policies.

GWEN IFILL: Let's just try to keep this conversation to talking about Mr. Lieberman for now, because we can talk about the Clinton-Gore policies all next week at the Democratic Convention.

AL FROM: What Joe Lieberman brings is somebody who brings the same centrist, new Democrat point of view that President Clinton and Vice President Gore have come -- and with Vice President Gore, will be able to lift those policies to a new level.

GWEN IFILL: How about that, Senator Coats? We've heard a lot of talk in this discussion so far about how much Senator Lieberman was an atypical Democrat. Does that help the Democrats against the Republicans in this presidential time?

FORMER SEN. DAN COATS: I don't think it allows Al Gore to escape his ties with Clinton and the Clinton administration. I think in the end this race will come down between Al Gore and George Bush. That's what the public will focus on. We have two men that are well thought of and highly respected in Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman. They are complements to both of their tickets. But I think the real focus will be on the presidency in the respect of the impeachment inquiry. I was presiding in the chair when Joe Lieberman came to the floor. And he gave that speech. He was the first Democrat to step forward, one of the only ones, and he articulated with great feeling his loss of, I think, respect for the President, his conduct, he called it deplorable. I think immoral is the word he used -- lying under oath. He thought it had a very negative effect on America's children and America's families. Juxtapose that with Al Gore calling this the greatest President and saying he was proud of this President at a time when Joe Lieberman was saying he was severely disappointed in this President. I think those two images are going to be difficult for Al Gore to explain.

GWEN IFILL: Congressman, you mentioned a few moments ago about Joe Lieberman's religion. Do you think that will hurt or help or have no effect at all?

REP. SAM GEJDENSON: I think what it shows really is something about Al Gore, that he had the courage to look at the man and not look at where he came from. And I really think that this decision by Al Gore is going to strengthen the ticket. I think one of the ways you know this was a great decision is when you listen to Republican pundits today, they're no locker talking about the role of the vice presidential candidate in the debate. They're now saying the vice presidential candidates don't matter. It's going to be the two candidates. I think Al Gore wins that debate with George W.. But he also showed his strength today by picking Joe Lieberman, somebody who is thoughtful, courageous, hard working, and is a real plus to this ticket. He's somebody who has shown the character that most politicians want to talk about. He's lived that life, living his beliefs, fighting for the things he believes in and working within the system to make this a better country. It's a great choice. And we now have two people in the Democratic nominating process, the presidential candidate and vice presidential candidate, who know foreign policy, who know domestic policy, who understand defense policy. Mr. Bush had to pick Dick Cheney to give him support in the areas where people were worried about him in the areas of foreign policy and defense. Al Gore didn't need that. He went out and picked the best number two there was. And he didn't look at anything else. And that's a great statement about Al Gore and Joe Lieberman.

GWEN IFILL: Sam Gejdenson, Al From, Dan Coats, thank you all very much.

FOCUS - THE RUNNING MATE

JIM LEHRER: Now, some further thoughts from Shields and Gigot: Syndicated columnist Mark Shields, "Wall Street Journal" columnist Paul Gigot. Paul, how do you see the politics of the Lieberman choice?

PAUL GIGOT: I think it's the smartest move Al Gore's made since he started running for President, Jim. (No audio -network difficulty) -- he could serve as President -- he is experienced. He's a very nice man, a good man; smart, a breadth of knowledge, no question about that. Gore needed to do something to shake up this race. He needed to get people to think that they didn't really know him completely, and picking somebody like Lieberman, who was the first to... Democrat to rebuke Bill Clinton, maybe that kind of thing. It's a sort of symbolic declaration of independence, or he's trying to make it that, from Bill Clinton, and it might get voters to say, "look, maybe we didn't know the Vice President like we thought him, and maybe it's not as Dick Cheney said, you know, joined at the hip like Siamese twins-- we'll never see one without thinking of the other." So I think it is a good move.

JIM LEHRER: A good move?

MARK SHIELDS: The defense rests. It was a very good move.

JIM LEHRER: Paul, next week.

MARK SHIELDS: Hey, wait a minute. No. It was a fascinating move. It really was. I mean, it was uncharacteristic of Al Gore, who has been categorized as...

JIM LEHRER: It says a lot about Al Gore?

MARK SHIELDS: It sure does. He's terminally cautious and circumspect and a base toucher and caressing the erogenous zones of the body politic. He didn't do that this time. I mean, there's a lot of special, important constituencies in the Democratic Party who are not thrilled with Joe Lieberman-- organized labor.

JIM LEHRER: Why? What's he done?

MARK SHIELDS: Obviously he's a supporter of free trade. The teachers unions are not pleased, quite displeased with his flirtation, if not embrace of school vouchers, of private school. You know, the peace Democrats are not pleased with his support for defense missile system. The civil liberties Democrats, some of them, are not pleased with his endorsement of a moment of silence-- sort of the halfway house between school prayer and no school prayer. So Joe Lieberman has walked where he's chosen to walk in the United States Senate and his public life, and it certainly wasn't like... He got this position just as was said in Gwen's interview and in Kwame's setup piece, he got this position because of who he is, but primarily because of Bill Clinton.

JIM LEHRER: He had... Al Gore has to separate himself from Bill Clinton?

MARK SHIELDS: Al Gore, Paul calls it declaration of independence. I think that's as accurate as anything, Jim. What came out of Philadelphia was-- and Paul might disagree with me here-- the Republicans want to run this campaign on values, and the Republicans on the question of moral values, which is an important issue to Americans, they give a big edge, an overwhelming edge to the Republicans. They'd love this issue to be about which party stands for traditional values, for honesty and so forth, and to make Al Gore in Bill Clinton's shadow. So he had to choose somebody who made that break, and in, in case, Joe Lieberman does it.

JIM LEHRER: Is it going to work?

PAUL GIGOT: I don't know. I mean, Vice Presidents don't determine tickets. We found that with Jack Kemp in 1996. A lot of people said he was a good choice, as well. He didn't put Bob Dole over the finish line. Al Gore has some ethics problems that are not just related to Bill Clinton. They extend to the Buddhist Temple and no controlling legal authority and all of that. But I think this will help. I think Mark has got his finger on the right point about values, that if you look at where Al Gore is not doing nearly as well as he should be if he's going to win this election, it's in the culturally conservative precincts of the country: Geographically, the South; demographically, older Americans over 65, married voters, especially married men and women with children-- there are big majorities now of support for Bush. Gore has to cut into that, and this, with Lieberman and his reputation... Joe Lieberman worked with Bill Bennett. I mean, he has real ties...

JIM LEHRER: He's gone after Hollywood, which is a big supporter of Clinton-Gore.

PAUL GIGOT: I'd like to ask David Geffen and Steven Spielberg, and those guys inHollywood what they think about this -- probably not thrilled with it.

JIM LEHRER: Yeah. What about his being an orthodox Jew? Is that going to help or hurt or even matter at all?

PAUL GIGOT: It's interesting, Jim. I think the adjective "orthodox" may be as important as being Jewish, because it suggests a cultural conservatism that may have a greater resonance and appeal that overwhelms or is stronger than a latent bigotry might be in terms of voting against somebody just because he's Jewish. At least that's my hopeful, optimistic point of view. I don't think it will matter that much really.

JIM LEHRER: Do you agree, no matter?

MARK SHIELDS: I have no idea, Jim. I think we all hope it doesn't matter, but I remember in 1964, when Barry Goldwater was nominated, Harry Golden, the great southern Jewish writer said, "I always knew the first Jewish..."

JIM LEHRER: Charlotte, North Carolina?

MARK SHIELDS: Right, Charlotte, North Carolina, North Carolina Israelite, and he said, "I always knew the first Jewish President would be an Episcopalian." Barry Goldwater's grandfather had been Jewish, and he was an Episcopalian. I think what you have here, to run for national office in the United States, you have to belong to a church. The problem is, with Americans who believe in church membership, they're not too serious or too high on somebody taking his or her religion very seriously. I cite two examples.

JIM LEHRER: And spreading it around.

MARK SHIELDS: Well, or even just taking it too seriously. Jimmy Carter -- Jimmy Carter prayed five times a day in the Oval Office. When that got out, he was widely roasted, and some of the elites of the country and some of the secular parts of the country... George Romney, a devout Mormon, fasted and prayed before deciding to run for President. They immediately said, "this guy, can we really trust him in the White House?" I think that's the angle on Joe Lieberman, is the orthodox. He's not an Episcopalian Jew. He is a real, practicing Jew, at a time when most American Jews are not observant Jews.

PAUL GIGOT: But there's circumspection about him. He's not overt. He doesn't run it up the flagpole.

MARK SHIELDS: He is a man who takes his job quite seriously and does not take himself seriously.

JIM LEHRER: Great sense of humor.

MARK SHIELDS: He's got a wonderful sense of humor, and I heard the nicest story about him today from a staff member in the office next to his on Capitol Hill -- Senator Mary Landry's office -- said Joe Lieberman is the only Senator who sought out to know what that staff member, lowly staff member's name was -- always called him by name. And that's sort of Joe Lieberman.

JIM LEHRER: Question first to you, Paul, then to Mark. I said it in the News Summary, everybody said it all day: Joe Lieberman is a moderate. What does that mean?

PAUL GIGOT: "Moderate" is a journalistic shorthand because we... It really isn't very helpful in most cases. If you're a Republican, you get described as moderate usually if you're pro-choice. You can be for zero taxes on everybody, but if you're pro- choice, you're a republican moderate. For Democrats, it's somebody that breaks with the orthodoxy, I think, on some fundamental issue, and with Lieberman, it tends to be important, number one, the culture, also, for example, on education vouchers, on private Social Security accounts, that sort of thing. And I think that's why he gets that label.

MARK SHIELDS: I did a study of this years ago with the "New York Times." Paul's right. The "New York Times" - a Republican moderate is a Republican who's pro-choice. Could be for eight-cent-an-hour minimum wage, could be for millionaires paying no taxes or anything, but if you're pro-choice, you are. But Paul, I'd add to what Paul said. The opposite of a liberal is a conservative, okay? Liberals are seen maybe as a little too unrealistic, impractical, maybe visionary, and not in touch with what's going on, maybe even elite. Conservatives are seen as sort of narrow-minded, maybe mean, not particularly open to new ideas. A moderate, what's the opposite of a moderate, an immoderate? You want to be known as a moderate. Being known as a moderate is a political plus.

JIM LEHRER: Even in Philadelphia, they were saying that Dick Cheney was a moderate man even though he was very, very conservative.

MARK SHIELDS: That's right.

JIM LEHRER: This is a good word. Both of you agree on that.

PAUL GIGOT: Yeah. It is a good word, although they tend to sometimes be people who don't set the agenda; they adjust to other people who set the agenda. I always admire conviction politicians on the right or the left, because ultimately they're the people who drive the debate, and moderates tend to come in on the inside and maybe capitalize on it or close the deal in Congress, but...

JIM LEHRER: That's what Joe Lieberman has always done.

PAUL GIGOT: That's exactly what he's done, and they are important, and especially in Congress, but the people who really change American politics tend to be those who move on the right or on the left and push the edges.

MARK SHIELDS: Joe Lieberman, in addition to being a moderate, has also been a maverick, which means he's been independent, not similarly sort of figuring where the middle is between the two. I would say this, a moderate is a cherished label in a general election. To be a conservative is a great advantage in a Republican primary; to be a liberal is or has been historically a great advantage in a Democratic primary; but in a general election, especially a close one like this is shaping up to be, a moderate is good.

JIM LEHRER: Gentlemen, this has been very educational. Thank you both very much.

JIM LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, the fires in the West, and a tribute to Alec Guinness.

FOCUS - SCORCHED EARTH

JIM LEHRER: Fires burn the West: Ray Suarez has that story.

RAY SUAREZ: For Nevada and many other western states, this year's wildfire season is the worst in five decades. And there's little relief in sight: The immediate forecast for much of the West is for high winds and lightning, but little rain. Currently, 65 large fires are burning in 11 states, spanning 800,000 acres. So far this year, a total of four million acres have burned. That's twice the annual average. Unfortunately, the long, dry spell isn't expected to end until October. Typically, most wildfire seasons are over by June or July.

SPOKESMAN: It's a long-term reaction to a drought we had in the west, the tail end of a La Nina session which makes it unseasonably warmer and dryer all summer long and into the fall.

RAY SUAREZ: In southwestern Colorado, authorities this weekend closed down the Mesa Verde National Park, home of the largest archeological site in North America. In California's Sequoia National Forest, firefighters have set backfires to contain the blaze, which is now threatening livestock. And in Utah and Nevada, authorities are battling the flames from the skies above. In all, some 20,000 firefighters from the U.S. and Canada are at work. Some are on 36-hour shifts. The total cost of the effort: $15 million a day.

DAVE FREELAND, U.S. ForestService: We're tired. Everybody's tired. We been trying to get fresh crews, but with all these fires going around the West, they're hard to come by.

RAY SUAREZ: To provide some relief, the U.S. Army and Marines have sent more than 1,000 troops to the hardest-hit states. One of those is Idaho, where one of the nation's largest fires covers more than 100,000 acres. President Clinton visits the state tomorrow. He plans to greet some of the firefighters on the front lines.

RAY SUAREZ: More information now from headquarters and out in the field. Roger Erb is fire director for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. He joins us from the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, which is coordinating the federal and state response to the fire, and Nan Christianson, district ranger for the Bitterroot National Forest in Montana.

Nan Christianson, let's start with you. It looks like the mountains over your shoulder are pretty heavily involved in fire. Are those new starts or are those fires that are currently, actively being fought?

NAN CHRISTIANSON, District Ranger, Bitterroot National Forest: Those are fires that have started within the last week and are actively being fought.

RAY SUAREZ: And is there any progress to report or are you still facing rising numbers of acreage and square mileage involved in fire in your park?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: The fires are very active, and we're seeing a lot of fire growth. Yesterday was a very active day, and many of the fires increased by 10,000 or 15,000 acres, and we don't expect that to change in the near future. We've got real dry conditions, and we expect to be in this for a while.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, what kind of changes in the conditions could you really use right about now to help you sort of turn the corner on this thing?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: Snow. Snow would be good. Even a fairly significant amount of moisture would make a big difference, but that's not in the current forecast.

RAY SUAREZ: Roger Erb, there are forest fires every summer in the national forests and throughout the intermountain West. Why is this year so particularly bad?

ROGER ERB, Fire Director, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service: Well, this year's bad from the standpoint that we've got so much of the West on fire at the same time. As an example, the Southwest would normally, if we can define normal anymore, have a monsoon season, and it's not occurred down there. So the resources that the Southwest has normally available to us are not available. And the lightning and amount of lightning that we've been getting and the storms just have kept our initial attack crews running, and we can't catch them all, but we've been catching quite a few of those.

RAY SUAREZ: So in a normal season, you'd be able to devote your attention to one, get that under control, and then go to another, rather than have to fight them all at once?

ROGER ERB: Well, from our level, we'd be devoting our attention to less geographic area of the western United States, I guess would be the way to, the way to say that.

RAY SUAREZ: Did you not have sufficient snow runoff? Has there been exceptionally short amounts of rain in the spring? Why is the forest so dry out there?

ROGER ERB: Well, it is... I can't speak for the whole West, but I know around this area, and I think other areas, we had a below- normal snow pack in a lot of areas, and when it melted this year, it just went completely off. It was not a slow melt. So nothing went into the soil and was not able to be absorbed into the trees and so forth. So a quick melt and then just the above-normalhigh that set in here as opposed to where it normally is, and the high temperatures, of course, have helped dry the fuel.

RAY SUAREZ: Nan Christianson, tell us a little about how you approach this thing when you look at a map of the entire park. What's the policy for where to go first, what to try to do first when you triage these things?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: Our first priority is public and firefighter safety, and that takes precedence over everything else. The second priority is protecting communities and structures, and we do that in cooperation with our local rural fire departments. And then the third priority is protecting the natural resources. So we look at those criteria as we prioritize where to put crews and where to put our resources.

RAY SUAREZ: In your particular park, are you a little luckier than some others in these 11 states in that you have fewer communities to try to avoid, that sort of thing?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: Pardon me?

RAY SUAREZ: Are you blessed a little bit by geography in your particular park because Montana's not a heavily populated state?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: We have... Our county's the largest or the fastest-growing county in Montana, and we have a lot of folks who are building their ideal homes back near the interface. We probably don't have the total number of populations that you might see in other western states, but we have a lot of homes and interface areas that need protecting.

RAY SUAREZ: So are there fires that you've just had to allow to continue to burn while you devoted your resources to keeping it from spreading through settled areas?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: We do have some fires that we have not been able to staff. We've chosen to place the resources in areas where we can do the most good to protect public safety and to try to protect the communities.

RAY SUAREZ: Roger Erb, are there some places in your area of responsibility that have been particularly tricky because of the number of people or the number of settled areas?

ROGER ERB: Well, our area of responsibility-- please understand, we don't do any on- the-ground fire fighting from here; it's a support role to the folks like Nan that are out there doing the work-- but our focus has been on community. Community protection when they're threatened is one of the high priorities, and so we'll try to move resources from one area to another as best we can to try to support the people on the ground that are doing that work.

RAY SUAREZ: And where have you felt the most acute need? Do you need more people? Do you need more materiel, more planes?

ROGER ERB: Well, we have about all we're going to get that we can manage right now. We've got roughly-- and this number runs up and down a little bit-- about 21,000 people in the field, and we can only manage and support so many crews, so many overhead teams, and so forth till we run out of our management structure, our people that are qualified and trained to do this kind of work, and we're bumping up against that. That's why we're doing some abnormal things, if you will, like getting Canadian resources into Montana to help out, talking with the Australians and the New Zealand folks and also with Mexico as far as what resources they may have to help us out. We're stretched. We're very, very, very stretched, and we have folks... resources cycling in and out, going off assignment, getting some rest, and we are in this for the long haul, 45 to 60 days at least, I'm sure. The only thing that might save us is if we have a hurricane bearing down on Missoula, Montana, might help out, but of course the likelihood of that, you know what that is.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, Nan Christianson, when a crew rotates off a long stretch of firefighting, how long can they rest before they have to head back into the mountains again?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: If I understood your question, it was about the duration that firefighters can be out?

RAY SUAREZ: Uh-huh.

NAN CHRISTIANSON: We have a very specific rotation period. We have folks out for about 14 days, and then we make sure they go back to their home unit and get some rest. In this kind of a season, they're reassigned to other fires.

RAY SUAREZ: So you have...you have some people working in your area who have been kind of short sleep and fighting in some very dangerous conditions?

NAN CHRISTIANSON: Yes, sir.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, good luck to both of you. Nan Christianson, Roger Erb, thanks for joining us.

NAN CHRISTIANSON: Thank you.

ROGER ERB: Thank you.

FINALLY - IN MEMORIAM

JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight, remembering actor Alec Guinness, who died Saturday at age 86. He was known for an elegance of style in a variety of films that included "Kind Hearts and Coronets" in 1949; "The Bridge over the River Quay" in '57, for which Guinness won an Oscar; "Lawrence of Arabia" in 1962; and "Star Wars" in 1977. In the 1980's, Guinness also played spy George Smiley on public television's "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" and "Smiley's People." Here are excerpts from two of those roles.

ALEC GUINNESS: I must call your attention, clear not, to Article 27 of the Geneva Convention. Belligerents may employ as workmen prisoners of war who are physically fit other than officers.

ACTOR: Give me the book.

ALEC GUINNESS: By all means. You read English I take it.

ACTOR: Do you read Japanese.

ALEC GUINNESS: Sorry. No. If it's a matter of precise translation, I'm sure that can be arranged. The code specifically states that...

ACTOR: You speak to me of code. What code? The coward's code. What do you know of the soldier's code, of Bushido? Nothing!

ALEC GUINNESS: Since you refuse to abide by the laws of the civilized world, we must consider ourselves absolved of our duty to obey you. My officers will not do manual labor.

ACTOR: Peter?

ACTOR: I'd leave that coat on if I were you, George. We've got a long way to go.

ALEC GUINNESS: Well, you've not me, Peter. Before I go anywhere at all, I shall change out of my sopping shoes. Also, I think, make a pot of coffee.

PETER: You sound a little testy, George old boy. Lakeon is waiting for you.

ALEC GUINNESS: Me, peter?

PETER: George, I've been sent to deliver you.

ALEC GUINNESS: I've been reviewing my situation in the last half hour of hell, and I've come to a very grave decision. After a lifetime of living by my wits and on my memory, I shall give myself up full time to the profession of forgetting. I'm going to put an end to some emotional attachments which have long outlived their purpose-- namely, the circus, this house, my whole past. I shall sell up and buy a cottage in the Cotswolds, I think. That sounds about right. Do I need overnight things?

PETER: I'm not taking any.

ALEC GUINNESS: There I shall establish myself as a mild eccentric, withdrawn, but possessing one or two lovable habits, such as muttering to myself as I bumble along innocent pavements. I shall become an oak of my own generation. You make the coffee. You know where everything is. You can even pick my front door locks. Clever, peter.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Monday. Vice President Gore chose Senator Joe Lieberman to be his running mate. The formal announcement was set for tomorrow. And more than 60 major wildfires continued to burn across the western United States. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Jim Lehrer Thank you, and good night.