The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, complete coverage of the growing turmoil and uncertainty over the presidential vote. We'll have the other news of this Thursday at the end of the program tonight.

FOCUS - HISTORY ON HOLD

JIM LEHRER: The recount of the Presidential balloting in Florida neared completion late this afternoon. Governor Bush had led Vice President Gore by about 1,800 votes before the recount. The results cannot be certified until some 2,000 ballots from Floridians overseas also come in and are counted. The deadline for that is next Friday, November 17. The recount news came amid claims of irregularities in Florida's voting. Kwame Holman reports.

CROWD: Revote! Revote! Revote!

KWAME HOLMAN: West Palm Beach near Miami today, hundreds of protesters turned out to draw attention to voting irregularities they say occurred here on Tuesday: The primary one, the Palm Beach County ballot, which many voters say confused them. County officials disallowed more than 19,000 ballots, about 3% of the county total, because they indicated votes for more than one presidential candidate. Critics say that happened because the ballot's design induced Al Gore voters to punch both holes next to his name. But only one was designated for Gore. The other was for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan, whose name appeared in the adjacent column. And other Palm Beach voters say they punched only the Buchanan spot, thinking they were voting for Gore.

LORA IDE, Palm Beach Voter: I was looking at Democratic. I saw a hole opposite the Democratic. I did not look for number 5 and the arrow. And of course that is my mistake. However, my vote was stolen.

KWAME HOLMAN: According to the results, there were more than 3,400 votes for Buchanan in Palm Beach county, a far higher number than he received anywhere else in the state.

PAT BUCHANAN: Those are probably not my votes in those precincts in Palm Beach county. The outsized nature of my vote. And I've looked at that ballot, and it is on the left side, it is Bush and then Gore, 1 -- 2. But if you... The dots 1, 2 are Bush Buchanan. And so my guess is I probably got some votes down there that really did not belong to me.

KWAME HOLMAN: Reporter: Meanwhile, in Florida's capital, Tallahassee, about 200 college students held a sit-in.

R. J. HOWARD, Florida A&M University Student: We are here in silent protest, not about the results of the election but about discrepancies in the election process. We will sit here until our concerns are heard.

KWAME HOLMAN: And there are charges of irregularities in other Florida counties. In Osceola, more allegedly confusing ballots. In Broward and Dade Counties, ballot boxes that didn't arrive at counting houses on time. In Pinellas, 400 ballots missed in the recount that began yesterday. A second recount is under way there. In Escambia, reports of forged absentee ballots and in Leon and Hillsborough, charges of police intimidation of African American voters. Today, the NAACP called on the Justice Department to investigate what it called "disproportionate disqualifications of black voters." Earlier today, however, Attorney General Janet Reno cautioned against quick federal intervention.

JANET RENO: One of the issues that is important to recognize is that the Justice Department and the Attorney General have an obligation to pursue matters carefully and thoughtfully and cannot let issues be politicized. I'm going to try my level best to make sure that that doesn't happen, that we recognize that it is a matter basically of state law, and that we come together in what has to be one of the important moments of this nation's history, not to engage in recrimination, but to really address this issue thoughtfully.

KWAME HOLMAN: As of late this afternoon, at least two voter lawsuits had been filed seeking a new vote for President in Palm Beach County.

JIM LEHRER: The Bush and Gore campaigns had teams of lawyers and other officials in Tallahassee to monitor the recount. Ray Suarez has our report.

RAY SUAREZ: Governor Bush asked former Secretary of State James Baker to represent his campaign in Florida during the recount process. Today, Baker met with Florida's secretary of state, who's overseeing the recount, and then spoke with reporters in Tallahassee.

JAMES BAKER: We had a full discussion of a lot of the issues surrounding this recount process. It's... I know the position as secretary of state is certainly the position of Governor George W. Bush that we would like to see this process carried out in a very transparent, open, deliberate way, as expeditiously as possible of course, given the national interest, but in keeping, fully in keeping with the requirements of the law of Florida. We feel quite confident that that's the way the process has been conducted so far, and we're hopeful of course that that's the way it's going to be concluded sometime during the course of the day.

REPORTER: Is there any evidence of fraud?

JAMES BAKER: I have not heard any-- I have certainly not seen any evidence of fraud, and I have not heard any specific allegations of fraud.

REPORTER: What about the ballot in Palm Beach County some voters said was confusing?

JAMES BAKER: The ballot in Palm Beach County that has been alleged to be confusing is a ballot that has been used before in Florida elections. It is a ballot that was approved by an elected Democratic official. It is a ballot that was published in newspapers in that county and provided to the candidates, to the respective political parties in advance of the election in order that complaints, if any, could be registered. And hey, guess what? There were no complaints until after the election. So it's not... so it's a ballot that's been used before. It was approved by an elected Democratic official, and there were no complaints when, in accordance with Florida law, everybody had a chance to complain.

REPORTER: Mr. Secretary, what about Broward County, 14,000 punched ballots that don't count in Broward? Not Palm Beach, Broward County.

JAMES BAKER: Well, you're raising the very same question. But let me just say, on the issue of ballots that are disqualified, if that's what your question is, there's not a jurisdiction in this democracy of ours that does not discard ballots where a voter votes twice for two different candidates for the same office. That's what happens in our democracy. If that's what happened here, I don't see how you can count those ballots.

REPORTER: What does this do, this controversy going on, in our ability or standing in the world, do you think right now?

JAMES BAKER: Well, it's... we cannot argue that it is good, but our democracy is strong. It's one of the real strengths of this country is the fact that we pass power, we transition power peacefully. We resolve our disputes in a responsible way. That's why it is so important that we complete this process today and that we, following that-- and by the way, I have not heard one complaint about the conduct, at least as yet not one, about the conduct of the recount. There may be some complaints, but I haven't heard them. That's why it's so important that we complete this, because the presidential election of course is on hold, and that affects the position of the United States in a number of different ways, particularly internationally.

RAY SUAREZ: About two hours later, Gore's representatives, campaign chairman William Daley and Baker's counterpart former Secretary of State Warren Christopher, spoke to the press.

WILLIAM DALEY: Secretary Christopher and I have been in Florida now for over 20 hours, and I'm here to report that what we have learned has left us deeply troubled. Most notably, it appears that more than 20,000 voters in the Palm Beach County who, in all likelihood, thought they were voting for Al Gore, had their votes counted for Pat Buchanan or not counted at all. In response to this clear injustice, what does the Bush campaign say? They blithefully dismiss the disenfranchise of thousands of Floridians as being the usual sort of mistake made at elections. They cite legal provisions about published ballots and technical notice. They put a demand for finality ahead of the pursuit of fairness. Here is what we intend to do about this: Today, the appropriate Florida Democratic officials will be requesting a hand count of ballots in Palm Beach County, as well as three other counties: Vallucia, Dade and Broward. In addition today, I'm announcing that we will be working with voters from Florida in support for legal actions to demand some redress for the disenfranchisement of more than 20,000 voters in Palm Beach County. We believe that, with so much at stake, steps should be taken to make sure that the people's choice becomes our President. In addition, we are still collecting accounts of other irregularities, voter intimidation and other oddities in other parts of the state, and if substantiated and appropriate, they, too, will become part of legal actions. Now, let me address the concerns of those who say that these actions will delay the conclusion of this election or somehow we are seeking to drag this out. All we are seeking is this: That the candidate who the voters preferred become our President. That is what our constitutional principles demand. That is what true fidelity to our Constitution suggests. That is what the American people truly deserve. Moreover, we will move this matter ahead as quickly as is possible. We do not want delay. What we want, however, is democracy fulfilled. Finally, let me address some remarks to the Bush campaign. I believe that their actions to try to presumptively crown themselves the victors, to try to put in place a transition, run the risk of dividing the American people and creating a sense of confusion. Let the legal system run its course. Let the true and accurate will of the people prevail. And if at the end of the process George Bush is the victor, we will honor and obviously respect those results. But we would expect the same adherence to the rule of law in Democratic process from their campaign in return.

WARREN CHRISTOPHER: To shorten this up and to enable you to get to your questions, let me just associate myself with Chairman Daley's comments. If I could put it in a single sentence, we've come to believe that there are serious and substantial irregularities resulting from the ballot used only in one county, that that ballot was confusing and illegal and arising out of this is the need for redress in order to make sure that the will of the people can be properly honored in this situation.

REPORTER: Please respond to the contention of Florida Governor Bush and other Republicans that there was plenty of time to say something about these Palm Beach County ballots, the way they were constructed. They were approved by Democrats.

WILLIAM DALEY: Yeah, but as was stated, that should not negate the right of the voters when they go to the poll. A party official of either party doesn't have the right to disenfranchise thousands and thousands of voters in a county in Florida. I don't think anyone would believe that. And there is some question as to the exact comparison between the sample ballot that was published and the actual ballot and the look of the actual ballot that the people went into the polling place and used. Yes, sir?

RAY SUAREZ: Secretary Christopher was asked if the delay in announcing a winner is affecting America's interests abroad.

WARREN CHRISTOPHER: I've had the ill fortune to serve in administrations after losing an election, as well as after winning an election. Let me assure you that the presidency goes on until January 20 in a vigorous way, and none of our allies are in any doubt as to who's in charge of the government until January 20. There'll be a new President then but not before.

RAY SUAREZ: Late this afternoon, Bush campaign chief strategist Karl Rove gave a pointed response to Gore campaign chairman Daley's concerns about the so-called butterfly ballot. Daley is a native of Cook County, Illinois.

KARL ROVE: The Gore campaign has been handing out a somewhat hazy and fuzzy copy of it, so we are making available to you and can do so electronically, as well, a relatively clean and clear copy of the butterfly ballot, which indicates that this is not as susceptible to confusion as Chairman Daley indicated. In fact, I really thought it was ironic that Chairman Daley went to great lengths to decry the butterfly ballot as confusing and undemocratic because I have here a copy of the cook County, Illinois, judicial ballot, which is a butterfly ballot. This has been used in a number of states, in a number of counties, and it's historically been used in Cook County, Illinois. Maybe Mr. Daley's in a better place to decry democracy and confusion in Cook County than he is in Florida, if that's really the case. I believe that we have an election day for the purpose of having an election, and in this country at least, we don't follow the practice of some other countries in the world and hold elections and hold elections until somebody gets the outcome that they desire.

RAY SUAREZ: Rove said Florida's recount is not the only one on the horizon. There is one underway in a New Mexico county, and recounts are possible in Iowa and Wisconsin-- Gore narrowly won all three states.

JIM LEHRER: On the Florida recount, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, made this announcement a few minutes ago.

KATHERINE HARRIS: The divisions of elections reported receiving recount results from 53 counties in Florida. We are still awaiting the results from the supervisors of elections in 14 Florida counties, which by law, have until Tuesday, November 14, to submit those returns to the office of the secretary of the state. Official certification by the elections canvassing commission, consisting of our commissioner of agriculture, the division director of elections and the secretary of state, will not commence until the original signed forms from all 67 counties attesting to their certified results have been received by our office. As of 5:00 P.M. today, the unofficial certified results of the recount are as follows: Governor George W. Bush, 2,909,661. Vice President Al Gore: 2,907,877 -- a difference of 1,784 votes. The following is very important: Under statutory law, legally cast Florida ballots received from overseas must be counted by the supervisors of elections for ten days following the general election. That deadline is November 17, 2000.

JIM LEHRER: Now back to Ray Suarez.

RAY SUAREZ:: And the view from the ground. From ground zero in Florida; Republican State Senator Jim Sebesta is a former supervisor of elections in Hillsborough County - that's the Tampa/St. Petersburg area. He is a member of the Senate Committee on Ethics and Elections. Susan MacManus is a Professor of Political Science at the University of South Florida. Democratic State Senator Ron Klein, of Delray Beach. Senator Klein was a Gore witness for the recount in Palm Beach County.

Well, we just heard from Florida's secretary of state. Professor MacManus, it looks like we're not going to know for sure for a while.

SUSAN MacMANUS: No. I think we're in a mode of caution because there's nothing more precious to a democracy than the sanctity of the ballot. And I think both Democratic and Republican officials in Florida, as well as all Floridians, want this to be the best and fairest and most accurate count.

RAY SUAREZ: And Senator Sebesta, what options are available to the campaigns at this point? From what the secretary of state said, it sounds like they just have to sit tight at least for a while.

STATE SEN. JIM SEBESTA: Yeah, that's exactly right. As the absentee ballots come back from overseas, they will be counted in each of the 67 offices throughout the state of Florida, and we just are in kind of a limbo situation. It's kind of interesting. I was talking to my nephew in Chicago last night, Kevin Conner, and I said, "this sounds just like a John Grisham novel, except that nobody would believe it." So we are just waiting until all these absentee ballots come in and are counted.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, Senator, can we shorten that time line any by knowing perhaps how many of those ballots were issued, how many were applied for, how many have come back so far so that at least we have a known universe that we're dealing with here?

STATE SEN. JIM SEBESTA: Well, the answers to your questions are: yes, yes, yes, and no. Yes, we know how many were mailed out. Yes, we know where they went. But no, we don't know how many people actually mailed them. People are all over the world literally, and who is to say whether a person who received a ballot took the time to fill it out and mail it back? We just don't know that.

RAY SUAREZ: But do we know if any have already been received and counted so that we can compare that number to the number that have been issued?

STATE SEN. JIM SEBESTA: Yeah, we do. I'm sorry. I don't know the exact figure. Many of those ballots have come back, and have already been included in the figures. Unfortunately, we don't know for sure how many are yet to be received, so we are in this limbo situation and we just wait till they come back.

RAY SUAREZ: Senator Klein, were you a witness in the Palm Beach County area. Tell us what you saw on the recount.

STATE SEN. RON KLEIN: Well, what we saw was a relatively smooth recount. It's all done mechanically. It ended up that there were more votes, net votes for Al Gore when it was over. We had witnesses by both the Bush and the Gore teams there to make sure that everything went according to law in terms of all the ballots being tested properly, and that was the case yesterday. I do want to point out something, as I was listening to Mr. Baker give an explanation on the ballots, since I voted in Palm Beach County of course, and heard all day long and have heard from thousands of people since then of the problems, the sample ballot that was published and sent out to people did not have the holes designated on the form. All it had was the arrows, and the other problem-- so in other words, people couldn't tell that there-- that there was a problem in the alignment, just from seeing what the form looked like. And also, when you put the card in the bracket itself, there was another slight misalignment with the way the pages turned. So those two factors really did lead to quite a bit of confusion. And unfortunately, it has just amounted to it appears like thousands of people who were confused, at least on the Presidential piece of the ballot.

RAY SUAREZ: It's been reported for some time since the polls closed and the tabulations began, that a large number of votes from your county had to be discarded for double punching. Once they were discarded in the first count, have they been revisited at all? Have they been sequestered or sealed?

STATE SEN. RON KLEIN: Well, no. Actually, what happens is the ballots are tabulated as individual election items. In other words, there is a President, there's there is a Vice President, and all the other items are tabulated individually. So by way of example, in the presidential race where there were eight or nine different parties running, we had 19,100 ballots that were double-punched. And that's 4.14% of our total ballots cast in Palm Beach County. That's a massive amount. In the U.S. Senate race, which was laid out differently, it was laid out vertically just like all the other items on our ballot, without any confusion, there were only 3,100 that were double-punched, which was .8%. That seems to indicate that five times the number of people double punched the Presidential one, and we heard that people double-punched for Al Gore and Joe Lieberman or Buchanan. But it's five times the number. And that statistically is a great concern.

RAY SUAREZ: Is there precedent for reexamination of balloting like this in the state of Florida?

STATE SEN. RON KLEIN: I'm not aware of anything, and I haven't researched this. I've just been, you know, sort of focusing on talking to folks and trying to find out and looking at the over voting, which is what that term is when you double-punch. It seems like we're breaking new ground here, and what's of obvious concern to not only the people of Palm Beach County but the whole state of Florida and the entire country is a consequence of this balloting in Palm Beach County. I can't speak to items that happened in other parts of the state, but seriously, anybody in Palm Beach County, whether they voted for Al Gore or George Bush or Pat Buchanan, there is a legal question of the validity of this ballot.

RAY SUAREZ: Reporter: Senator Sebesta, let's hear from you on the Palm Beach County case.

STATE SEN. JIM SEBESTA: Well, thank you. And hello to my good friend, Senator Klein. It's nice to see you on camera. There is... I think one of the things you have to keep in mind here is that the supervisor of elections in Palm Beach County has the responsibility of laying out the ballot. She did that. She then publishes the ballot and people have the opportunity to review the ballot. As was pointed out in the press conference just a few minutes ago, no one, underline no one, ever brought it to anyone's attention that the butterfly ballot might be confusing to anybody. Now, folks who vote for two people in one race surely they must realize what they're doing. I can't believe... you know, somewhere in this, individual responsibility has to enter into it, but even if you did vote for two people in one race, there is a mechanism under Florida statutes which allows the voter to raise his hand and said, "oops, I goofed. I want another ballot." And people just did not do that. They didn't do it in Palm Beach County, they didn't do it anywhere. If you mess up a ballot, you have the legal authority, the legal right to ask for another ballot right there in the polling place. Now, obviously, you can't leave the polling place and then say, "gosh, I think I made a mistake." You have to do it in the polling place, and that's where with the individual responsibility comes in. And I think we are overlooking that a great deal here.

RAY SUAREZ: Professor MacManus, let's turn back to you. Given what you know about Florida electoral law and what courts have ruled in the recent past, as we move forward now-- the secretary of state is running the clock till next Tuesday on the recount, we don't know exactly when the absentee votes will be fully tabulated-- is there a sustainable case in court to reexamine what happened in this particular Florida county?

SUSAN MacMANUS: Well, I'm not an attorney, and I really can't address that. But what I can say is that, for many people in Florida who study elections, it's very clear that we need to reexamine the whole process of voting and ballot formats and punch card ballots and all that. We haven't paid a lot of attention to it, and as our population ages, people's ability to use a punch card varies somewhat. And we're seeing the consequences of that. We need to do more studies of ways to make ballots accessible and friendly to older voters and also people with disabilities.

RAY SUAREZ: In the recent past, Miami had a re-election and had the results of an election thrown out. Does your state tend to be... set a high bar for reexamination of election results, or one that may be breached in a case like this?

SUSAN MacMANUS: Well, we've never had a case like this. This is just path-breaking, and I'm not sure that I'm the one to answer that question because I'm not an attorney. And right now, we have the best legal minds in America down here monitoring this situation for both parties. And really, that's a good thing for America because we need to make sure that this election is valid and that people believe in the sanctity of their ballot.

STATE SEN. RON KLEIN: Ray, would I like to point out something also.

RAY SUAREZ: Very quickly, Senator.

STATE SEN. RON KLEIN: Justvery quickly. There are two is statutory provisions, one of which says the X or the mark has to be to the right of the name, and that did not occur on half of the ballot on the President's side. And secondly, the ballot of Al Gore was third, as opposed to second. Pat Buchanan was second. So there are some legal questions here about whether the validity of this ballot is constitutional or at least is statutory.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, as we heard Chairman Daley say earlier, they are going to support court cases in this matter. We're going to have to end it there. Professors, Senators, thank you very much.

FOCUS - HISTORY ON HOLD

JIM LEHRER: The uncertainty over who will be President, and the issue of legitimacy, President Jimmy Carter had some advice for the country today. He spoke at the National Press Club in Washington.

JIMMY CARTER: This is a time, I think, not for frivolous delays in the process, which I think would be condemned by the American people. And I don't think it's a time for premature concessions because we don't yet know the facts about what has occurred in Florida among the people who went to the polling places in good faith to cast their ballots for the presidency. And the American people should, I think, join me in being patient and thorough in determining what that will of the Florida voters was. My guess is that this process is going to take several days. The campaign has been going on for more than a year, 100 million people have voted. What they wish, as a result of the election, has not yet been determined. And a few more days is not an improper expectation to realize. The system of rules and regulations concerning the voting processes in Florida have been and are being thoroughly studied. And any challenges to the system that it has not accurately represented the will of the people needs to be decided in the courts. Ultimately. We don't yet know what courts will be involved, either state or federal, but I think it's very important for the American people to realize that it would be a serious mistake to have the final outcome of the election determined without there being a general consensus that the process has been thoroughly pursued. When the process is over, within the next two or three days or maybe a couple of weeks, if a decision is made to count the absentee ballots, then whoever the next President might be will certainly have my full support, the support of the losing candidates, and I think the overwhelming majority of the American people. I don't believe that would be the case if there are still uncertainties remaining about what the accurate results in Florida might have been. So my primary message is that the American people should be patient, that there be no premature decisions made and that the will of the people of Florida and, therefore the nation under our constitutional system should be accurately honored.

JIM LEHRER: Margaret Warner takes it from there.

MARGARET WARNER: With me are four writers and scholars. Richard Brookhiser is a senior editor at "National Review" Magazine; he's written books on George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. Wendy Kaminer is an associated scholar at the Radcliff Institute for Advanced Study and a columnist for the "American Prospect" Magazine. Joining them are two professors from Yale Law School: Akhil Reed Amar, author of "The Bill of Rights: Creation and Reconstruction;" and Stephen Carter, whose books include "Civility" and "Integrity." Thank you all for being with us.

Akhil Amar, several Americans, ordinary Americans, interviewed on television today said that they found this entire spectacle, the recounts, the demonstrations, the dueling press conferences somewhat disturbing, unsettling. Do you think this is healthy for the country or unhealthy?

AKHIL REED AMAR: Well, it may be a touch of both. It's inevitable because both of the candidates are strongly supported by a great many millions of Americans. People trudged out to the polls all across the country in record numbers to affirmatively cast their votes for people in whom they believed. I think both candidates may have gotten more votes than President Clinton got. So you can understand the enthusiasm and the vigor of the supporters. There is an opportunity for both candidates to try to be big about things and to try to remember ultimately a sense of the fairness of the American people and to try to do not just what's technically legally required but what ultimately is in the best interests of the country, which sometimes might require certain forbearance on each side, certain sacrifice, concession, accommodation and attentiveness to a basic idea of fairness to both sides.

MARGARET WARNER: How do you see it, Richard Brookhiser? Do you think this whole spectacle to undermine Americans' confidence in the system?

RICHARD BROOKHISER: Well, we have had more bitterly contested elections than this one, though admittedly not in some time. I mean, we had three back in the 19th century, which were real hair-curlers and the country got through it and it went on. In our lifetime, probably 1960 comes closest to this, John Kennedy had a much bigger electoral margin, but the popular vote was also razor thin, and Richard Nixon went to his grave convinced that the election had been stolen from him. Now, he didn't challenge it in that case, and it was largely because Dwight Eisenhower, who was the outgoing President, took him aside and read him the riot act and said, "you're not going to do this. These are the first counts that came in. We know about Mayor Daley in Chicago and Missouri and Texas and all the rest of it, but you're not going to challenge those results." And you know, John Kennedy succeeded. He had legitimacy, he presided over the Cuban Missile Crisis without anyone calling his election into question.

MARGARET WARNER: Wendy Kaminer, how do you see it in terms of what this is doing to the voters' faith and the in the legitimacy of the system, the electoral system?

WENDY KAMINER: I actually think that you would do more to undermine the voters' faith in the electoral system if you ignored protests that people's rights were violated during the electoral process. I don't think that the controversies and the protests that we're seeing now are unhealthy for the country at all. I think they're a healthy sign of the democracy. I think as long as people's protests remain legal, as long as they seek redress, continue to seek redress through legal channels, I think it's really more of a tribute to our democracy than a threat to it. There are some very important rights at issue here -- I mean the core rights of our country really, voting rights. And if people think that those rights have somehow been taken away from them, we can certainly withstand hearing their protests about it. And I think that... I'm happy in a way to see people so politically engaged. You know, I'm not pleased no, no one is pleased by the mess of this election, but at least people are engaged, at least there are people who care about the outcome of the election and who care about the fairness of the process.

MARGARET WARNER: Stephen Carter, actually healthy maybe for the country?

STEPHEN CARTER: Well, healthy may be a little bit strong. It's a very difficult and in a way heartbreaking situation, I think, and one of things that makes it heartbreaking is precisely that it's pretty clear at this point that each of the candidates, both the Gore campaign and the Bush campaign have every intention of pushing this to the limit to do everything they can to make sure that their side prevails. And it strikes me a little in line of what my colleague Akhil Amar was saying a few minutes ago - that one of the opportunities to show true leadership is to show a certain grace or integrity that comes from saying, "I am not going to insist on every legal right." And I'm not suggesting that it has to be Gore rather than Bush who takes this view, but there has to be a leader, among the people who claim they want to lead the American people, who says, "let me show you how to sacrifice in this situation. Let me show you how to unify the country by doing something other than making sure that my forces are out to do everything possible to make sure that I win." There are bigger things in a democracy than winning elections because there are bigger values at stake than elections alone. A democracy is an agreement by a group of people that we can be self-governing, we can reason together that there is the possibility of actual consensus, and I would like to see leadership taking us in that direction.

MARGARET WARNER: Wendy Kaminer, it sounded to me earlier as if you feel differently on that point. You think it's better to pursue, go the judicial route, if that's necessary, is that right?

WENDY KAMINER: Well, I don't think the campaigns should be involved in traveling down this judicial route. And I was sorry to see that the Gore campaign was becoming involved in the challenges to the ballots in Palm Beach County. Gore's rights haven't been violated here. Gore has no right to be President. The rights at issue are the voting rights of the residents in Palm Beach County. So it's really their case to pursue, not his case to pursue. It's their rights that are at issue.

MARGARET WARNER: Richard Brookhiser, how do you see this?

RICHARD BROOKHISER: Well, you know, a recount is under way. We'll have a result from it at some point. And then that will decide the vote of Florida. Then whatever decision that is, and assuming, you know, that there's still Oregon and New Mexico recounting, that won't affect the vote, but assuming there are no challenges in Wisconsin or Iowa or in any other state, once these recounts are done, then we'll have a result. I'm a little worried that one effect of this might be people saying, "oh, the electoral college has produced this problem. Why don't we get rid of this 18th century relic." And it seems to me that you have to consider one consequence of doing that, which is that, if we want a direct election for the President, all the allegations of vote fraud that you're seeing now in Florida, in Wisconsin and in other places, they would be multiplied by factors you can't even imagine because, in an electoral college system, if you want to steal an election, you have to concentrate your efforts in a few states. If it's one pot in which all the votes are thrown, then any stolen vote anywhere is potentially marginal, and there would be vastly increased incentives for vote fraud.

MARGARET WARNER: Akhil Amar, that brings me back to you because you wrote an op-ed today, I think it was in the "New York Times," saying in fact this showed that the electoral college was an -

AKHIL REED AMAR: Yes,I do. I think there are some problems with the electoral college. I think it's inconsistent with the basic idea, a modern democratic idea that we're all equal citizens, an idea of one person, one vote. I don't think that there's really ultimately any question at this point that at least at the national levels, Vice President Gore did win more votes of people across the country. And even if that has no legal significance, it might have some significance as a matter of the American people's fundamental sense of fairness, and maybe one of the factors that both men should consider as they try to come up with some compromise solutions. If we did move to direct national election, I think there probably would be a sort of a federal presence and monitoring the ballot. Maybe you'd have a little bit less of them... the Mayor Daley situation that Rick Brookhiser mentioned earlier in 1960. So that doesn't scare me really, that there might be a federal marshal trying to monitor the fairness of voting.

MARGARET WARNER: Stephen Carter,-- who was trying to speak? I don't mean to cut you off.

RICHARD BROOKHISER: If you go to that argument, I mean to be consistent with that argument...

MARGARET WARNER: Richard Brookhiser.

RICHARD BROOKHISER: It's not just the electoral college that's a problem. It's also the Senate, it's also the House of Representatives. I mean you never have a perfect match between the partisan breakdowns of representatives in Congress and the partisan breakdowns of the votes that were cast in congressional elections. You never have that. The only way to get that is to go to a system like they have in the Knesset where everybody votes, then they see what the percentages of the parties got are and then they divvy out the seats on the basis of that. If you have any sort of... really the argument against the electoral college is ultimately an argument against considering geography in any way in the voting.

MARGARET WARNER: All right, let me get back to Stephen Carter. Mr. Carter, today Richard Dahlic, the historian, said he thought all of this, and particularly as it goes on, will just deepen voters' cynicism about the political process. What do you think of that?

STEPHEN CARTER: Sadly, I think that's true. Others have spoken about the strength of our democracy and the fairness of the American people, and I want to believe in that. But we are in America deeply mired sometimes in almost a conspiratorial view of history, that if our side loses, it was never really quite fair and square. There's always a reason, there's always somebody to blame. That's a tendency in how we talk about things. And I would hate for this election to get caught up in that because then we could imagine that, in every election in the future, if there's any state that's close, let's have a big fight over what really happened there. I think that's a very genuine threat that we have to worry about. That doesn't mean people shouldn't insist on their voting rights. It just means we have to be very careful, especially in the media and particularly in the campaigns, and with the candidates themselves, in how we talk about what's going on. Again, we need to think about integrity and we need to think about how to be grateful.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, what do you mean by be grateful?

STEPHEN CARTER: What I mean by grateful is that there is more to life in a democracy than simply insisting on winning, than simply insisting on power. It strikes me that whether it is Vice President Gore saying, "I will respect the recount, whatever the result is," or whether it's Governor Bush saying, "this is so close that I don't want to win this way," that one of them has to rise to this occasion and say, "here is leadership, here's grace, this is greatness in a democracy." But I think it's unlikely either one is going to do that.

WENDY KAMINER: I don't think there would be anything particularly grateful about either Gore or Bush making a decision about whether people should be able to pursue their rights. You know, again, it's not their rights that are at issue; it is the right of the people in Palm Beach County, in this case, to feel that their votes are counted, to feel that they had a fair election, that they did not have a misleading value -- misleading ballot. And it's not... You know, there would be nothing grateful, I think, about vice president gore saying that he didn't want this pursued because he wanted to graciously hand over the office to the president. What grace is there in his abdication of other people's rights? I think we need to focus on the voters and not the candidates.

MARGARET WARNER: Akhil Amar, whose rights do you think are at issue here?

AKHIL REED AMAR: Well, they're both, but of course the candidate can always choose not to pursue his efforts to get elected. John Ashcroft had some possible legal objections in Missouri that... technical legal arguments he could have made that votes for a dead person just aren't valid...

MARGARET WARNER: You're talking about Senator Ashcroft who just was defeated by the deceased former governor.

AKHIL REED AMAR: And there were certain arguments he could have made, maybe there were certain arguments people who voted for him could have made. But he gracefully and graciously yesterday said that "the people have really spoken, I'm not going to challenge this. They spoke with clarity. I ask all of my supporters to accept what the people really did." Now, here's analogy in this situation. There were some irregularities in the ballot, not every irregularity is technical fraud, is technically illegal. But even if it's not illegal, it may not be fair. People trudged to the polls, they took responsibility, they tried to do the right thing, and their votes weren't properly counted. Maybe there was no violation of legal right, but does Governor Bush want to basically say, "I won that election technically, even though most of the people who went to the polls actually voted against me and voted for the other fellow, or tried to at least as best they could, after really taking responsibility and going to the polls"?

MARGARET WARNER: All right, well, thank you all four very much.

FOCUS - NEXT MOVE?

JIM LEHRER: Now some final thoughts about how the two men caught in the middle of this storm - Vice President Gore and Governor Bush -- might play this out. They come from Howard Baker, former Tennessee Senator, Republican leader of the Senate, and White House chief of staff under President Reagan. We also hope to be joined by Leon Panetta, who was President Clinton's chief of staff in the first term; technical problems have prevented that from happening. Senator Baker, welcome.

HOWARD BAKER: Thank you very much.

JIM LEHRER: Senator, rise to the occasion, Stephen Carter just said. Just in simple personal terms, what is your view of how difficult it would be for either one of these men to now walk away based on where we are right now?

HOWARD BAKER: Jim, it would be extremely difficult, but it would also be heroic on one candidate or the other's part. Someone said earlier in the program that, in effect, winning isn't everything. I go one step further than that and say that anyone who's a serious contender for President probably undertakes a responsibility to the country to see that the final result is legitimate and that we don't shatter of the confidence of the country and its new leadership. Now, what that means in terms of the conduct of Vice President Gore and Governor Bush in the final analysis remains to be seen because we don't know the final results in Florida and probably won't know until November 17. We don't have the final vote totals in a couple of other states. It is not at all sure that one candidate or other won the popular vote, although that's really not important in terms of our system. But in the final analysis, the primary obligation that presidential candidates have, in my view, is to see that the presidency is legitimate, that the new President has an opportunity to govern and under the very best circumstances, Jim, this is going to be a very difficult time, given the closeness of so many elections. So I think greatness depends in large measure on somebody deciding that this should not be prolonged, this should not be dragged through the legal system, this should be decided on the best basis you can in deference to your responsibility to the country.

JIM LEHRER: Even if you believe, if you pushed it a little bit further, those votes might be out there that would make you President of the United States?

HOWARD BAKER: Yeah, I think even then. You know, I'm a lawyer by trade, and I've been doing it for a long time. And I can tell you first hand that lawsuits almost never solve anything. They create more animosity and controversy usually than they solve. I would not like to see a presidential election decided on the basis of judicial intervention. I think that's what Richard Nixon did in 1960, and whether President Eisenhower did that or it was done on his own initiative, I don't know, and I have no way to tell. But the fact of the matter is the country was delivered from a great challenge to the legitimacy of the next administration when Nixon decided not to contest the election, particularly in Cook County, Illinois. Now, the analogy is not exact. The votes are not yet in. There's no clear pattern of misconduct. There are all sorts of allegations. But in the final analysis, these two candidates, in my view, owe a responsibility to the country to see that the decision is made in a timely, orderly way and that it does not cast doubt on the legitimacy and effectiveness of the next administration.

JIM LEHRER: Would you agree, then, with Wendy Kaminer that the parties and the candidates should not be involved in the legal process?

HOWARD BAKER: Well, that's my own personal view.

JIM LEHRER: Now why? Why is that different than an ordinary voter or somebody in Florida pursuing it?

HOWARD BAKER: Well, I think because they do... the presidential candidates do owe a special responsibility to guarantee not only the succession but the legitimacy of the successor. And you don't have that. It's not certainly of the same gravity and extent on behalf of a private citizen. Maybe a citizen made a mistake or a misjudgment in the way he cast his ballot, but mistakes are not the basis for a legal judgment. But these are technicalities. There should not have to be a judicial intervention here. It ought to be decided on the basis of the primary responsibility that two presidential candidates have to see that the country goes forward in an orderly way with the least controversy possible under the circumstances and that we do not cast doubt on the legitimacy of the next administration.

JIM LEHRER: But, Senator, is it possible, viewing this situation right now, the reality that we know about it, for either man to walk away and say, "okay, I accept this, and everything's going to be all right." And for people to say, "okay, he really did lose, the other guy really did win?"

HOWARD BAKER: Well, maybe, but I think there's a modicum of heroism involved that go a long way toward convincing the country that if the candidates can be that big about it, that they must be also. The one thing I really don't look forward to and fear, Jim, is that beginning in January of 2001, we have not only had a numerically divided congress and country but you have an adversarial relationship that makes it impossible or virtually impossible to govern. If you do, then this period will be known perhaps as the interregnum of the 21st century, and we simply can't afford that. So somebody's got to be big about it and I have no nomination for who that is. I simply say that we must not drag this through the legal system.

JIM LEHRER: Were you as concerned as others were about the rising of the rhetoric today on both... from both campaigns?

HOWARD BAKER: Well, I was concerned. I just didn't listen. You know, I think that the country is... I think it's sated, I think it's tired of the whole thing, I think it certainly doesn't want to get involved in the legal minutia, and I think the country by and large is not listening. And I think most of the rhetoric we've heard, which is certainly... it's certainly enthusiastic rhetoric on both sides. I think that it's said for the benefit of the partisans and those who are most carefully involved, but I don't think that's the way the country feels. I think the country thinks we need a decision, we need to bind up our wounds, we need to get behind a President and get on with it. And I think we ought to get on with it as soon as possible.

JIM LEHRER: But as a practical matter, Senator, let's say the country is essentially divided, the people who voted at least are divided between these two men and let's say Vice President Gore or Governor Bush walks away now. And what if the supporters... Let's say Governor Bush decides to forget it, okay? What does he say, then, to the people who voted for him and the people who care deeply about abortion and the Supreme Court and tax cuts, all the issues he fought for and he'd say and say, "hey, come on." What does he say to them?

HOWARD BAKER: What you say to that is "I have a higher responsibility and that is to my country and to make sure of the legitimacy of the next administration." And all these issues are important and you know where I stand, but I'm going to try to bind up our wounds and you should, too."

JIM LEHRER: And do you think anything like that is likely to happen? I'm not talking about Governor Bush or-- I'm not singling him out, using him as an example. Do you think either one of these men is capable and willing to do this?

HOWARD BAKER: I do think that. I think they're both capable of it, and I don't think you have to run out the legal string to get there. I think both these men-- and I know them both well-- I think both these men understand the gravity of the situation, but they also understand the responsibility that they have to the country. Just because the country was almost equally divided in the campaign and the election doesn't mean it'll stay that way -- the country craves, it yearns for a coming together of the political system, and I think that if either candidate, whichever one it is, decides that this has gone far enough, that the country will cheer, the system will prosper and the country will be better off for it.

JIM LEHRER: So what you're really saying, Senator, is that out of this, there are opportunities for one man to become President and another man to become a world hero forever, I mean a hero of history?

HOWARD BAKER: Exactly. And those are not small rewards, both of them. And as a matter of fact, the hero who makes the decision may be remembered by history more favorably than the man who was elected and had to serve. You know, the great thing about politics, to be frank, Jim, is-- I served there a long time in the Senate and then for President Reagan-- but the happiest moment of my life was to be able to voluntarily return to private life. Anne Richards who's a former Democratic Governor of Texas said to me the other day, "you know, the only bad thing about politics is that when you get elected, you have to serve." And she said that, you know, with a smile on her face. But the truth of the matter is someone can be a world-class hero here, someone else is going to be President, and they're going to have to undertake that responsibility. But both of them have opportunities to discharge their obligation to the American people and to the institution of the presidency. And frankly, I think they are aware of that. I think both men are big Americans, and I think they can grasp that concept without any trouble, and I think the important thing, the bottom line is: Don't drag this out.

JIM LEHRER: All right, Senator Baker, thank you very much.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: In the other news of this day, Palestinian Leader Arafat met at the White House with President Clinton. Later he said he made the case for placing international peacekeepers in the West Bank and Gaza, among other things. The President will meet with Israeli Prime Minister Barak on Sunday at the White House. In the Middle East today, Israeli combat helicopters attacked a truck carrying Palestinian militia commanders; one of them was killed. An Israeli army spokesman said he had led recent ambushes that killed three Israeli soldiers. The spokesman said there was a new policy in effect to target Palestinian gunmen and their leaders. Today's attack also killed two bystanders. U.S. wholesale prices rose 0.04% in October, the Labor Department said today. They were boosted by a rise in natural gas prices, and the largest increase in food costs in six months. But prices for everything else actually fell one-tenth of 1%, for the first time since January. Economists said that decline made it likely the Federal Reserve would leave interest rates unchanged as they meet next week. As the presidential vote story continues, we'll see you online, and again here tomorrow evening with Shields and Gigot, among others. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.