The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening, The bloody revolution In Romania leads the news this Christmas day. Ousted leader Nicolas Ceausescu and his wife were executed as fierce fighting continued between army and security force. In Panama, Manuel Noriega remained at the Vatican Embassy In Panama City amidst reports he would be given safe passage out of the country. We`ll have the details In our News Summary In a moment. Then will come an assessment of the evening (Focus - Bloody Revolution) In Romania from Romanian dissident Dorin Tudoran and a former U.S. Ambassador to Romania Roger Kirk. Next, the first In a week long series of conversations about the 1980s. Tonight six religious leaders do the talking, Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, Father Virgilio Elizondo, Episcopal Bishop Barbara Harris, and Protestant Ministers Richard John Neuhaus, James Forbes, and Jerry Falwell. We close with a Christmas essay from Roger Mudd.

NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: More blood was spilled In Romania today, some of it that of ousted Communist Ruler Nicolas Ceausescu and his wife, Elana. Bucharest Radio and Television said the Ceausescus were executed following a secret trial for what were called particularly grave crimes. Elana Ceausescu functioned as a No. 2 in the government that had run the country with an Iron hand since 1965. Hungarian Radio reported that between seventy and eighty thousand psopls had been killed since the revolution against Ceausescu began U days ago. Romanian officials, however, denied that figure. Security forces loyal to Ceausescu continued to resist today, fierce fighting between them and army troops was reported in Bucharest and other paris of the country. And official spokesmen In Washington and Moscow said separately today the United States and the Soviet Union recognized the new government of Romania. We will have more on this story In a moment. On the Panama story, Manuel Noriega remained at the Vatican Embassy In Panama City. Negotiations are underway for Noriega to get safe passage to another country, possibly Cuba. He sought political asylum from the Vatican yesterday. U.S. troops today kept watch outside the gates of the Vatican compound. The new president of Panama, Gulllermo Endara, was ont among the people this Christmas Day. He spent the morning visiting refugees from this week`s fighting. He Joined them In an open air Mass presided over by the Panama`s Bishop. U.S. Defense Sec. Dick Cheney was In Panama today to visit troops and survey the situation on the ground. He had breakfast this morning with some U.S. soldiers. Then he Inspected weapons confiscated from the Panamanian defense forces. Later In the day he held a news conference. He said the number of weapons was far more than expected.

DICK CHENEY: Sec. of Defense: Thousands of AK-47s In these original cases, enormous amounis of ammunition, heavy machine guns, far more weaponry than Mr. Noriega could have conceivably used If he`d equipped all of his forces several times over. I`m not sure what the purpose of all that weaponry was, but there`s obviously an enormous amount of it. And one of the major tasks of the U.S. military for the several days or even weeks will be to make certain that all of that weaponry is wrapped up and dlspossd of In some fashion so that It cannot be misused again the way it was obviously in the past.

MR. LEHRER: Earlier In the day, Cheney delivered a Christmas message from Pres. Bush to the U.S. troops In Panama. He told them America was behind them heart and soul. In Johnson City, Tennessee, authorities confirmed today that 16 people died yesterday In a retirement home fire. Eleven others had been missing but they were found to have been away visiting family or friends. Fifty-one people were Injured In the fire that swept through the 11 story building that was home to 145 persons. It was a white Christmas In many places were It usually Is not. It snowed In Mobile, Alabama, for the first Christmas on record. There were IS Inches In Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, 13 In Wilmington, North Carolina. Record cold temperatures continued throughout much of the South. In Florida, four deaths were blamed on the cold. Governor Bob Martinei extended a state of emergency so growers could rush freeze damaged citrus crops to Juics processing planis. Relief Is in sight. Forecasters expect warmer temperatures beginning to night. And that is the News Summary tonight. Now two views of the Romanian Revolution, six religious views of the 1980s, and a Roger Mudd essay.

FOCUS - BLOODY REVOLUTION

MR. LEHRER: The Romanian Revolution li first this Chriitmas night. Ousted Dictator Nlkoll Ceauiescu and his wife, Elana, were executed today following a secret trial. There were also reporis that as many as 70,000 people may have died In the fighting that has rocked the country for the last 11 days. The main battles were between Romania`s regular Army and the Securltate, Ceausescu`s elite security force. We`ll get two perspectives on today`s evenis following updates from reporter from the Independent Television News Service. The reporis were completed prior to the announcement of the Ceasescu executions.

PAUL DA VIES: Christmas morning on the Bucharest battlefield. Soldiers who spent the last three days underfire protecting the television station which Is home to the new interim government enjoy a break in the fighting. There Is even time to erect a Christmas tree outside the TV center. But few are celebrating. The cost of their new freedom has been too high. Inside the building a man who spent 72 hours defending the center Is told his wife and two young boys were killed on Christmas eve night In fighting elsewhere In the city. Today the battle for the TV center was reduced to occasional exchanges between the Army defending the new leadership and snipers loyal to deposed President Ceausescu. We`ve seen pictures of Army tanks supporting the new leaders controlling the Transylvanlan Countryside 230 miles from the Capitol and heard peasanis there describe how Ceausesu`s secret police committed massacres before the army took over. Latest pictures from the mountain town of Brashoff, 160 miles west of Bucharest shows soldiers engaged In street battles with forces loyal to Ceausescu.

The sight of Blue uniformed Securltate fighting along side regular army soldiers Indicates the Increasing Isolation of those still holding allegiance to President Ceausescu. This man worked for the Securltate now he guides green uniform troops through the streeis to the besieged TV Studios. For he was regular Securltate. They and the Army have one common enemy. The antl terrorist squads who once formed the sliis of Csauesscu`s Internal security forces. Ifs often hard to tell friend from foe and tensions run high. Some secret policeman are already unmasked. This man Is now under arrest. Carrying a pistol he Joined the army defending the TV studios. Soon after he showed his true allegiance and shot 6 people dead. In that same building captured Securltate suspected of loyalty to Ceausescu are striped before being Interrogated by the Army. But It Is on the Streeis that Ceausescu`s former henchmen have most to fear. This Securltate man shot himself rather than submit to capture by the people.

JAMES FURLONG: Traditional December 25th Is a working day here. It was no different here today for the men of violence who refused to surrender. Most of the fighting was around the Continental Hotel close to the City center. An area It seems chosen for the Securitate`s final determined stand. The army had virtually experience In this kind of street war fare. After each engagement there are no follow up searches, suspect buildings are left unchecked and the soldiers withdraw to patrol elsewhere. In the quieter momenis and there were few local militia men provided escoris for those trying to get to church. These people have fast become used to the sign of violence and unless directly In the line of fire they pay little attention to the gunfire around the corner. In the hospital victims of both sides but mostly civilians are given the best care with antiquated facilities. This Is how the so-called terrorisis are kept, strapped In a net to keep them from escaping. This security agent If he lives faces trial and then possible execution. But even the gun battles couldn`t suppress the new found voice of freedom In the main square a few hundred gathered to here speeches and to make them. And at Christmas there was time to light candles In memory of friends who didn`t live to see this day.

MR. LEHRER: Now two views of the latest news from Bucharest. Roger Kirk was U.S. Ambassador to Romania from 1985 until last July. He Is now a Diplomais in Residence at Georgetown University in Washington. Doren Tudoren Is the Chief Editor of Agora, a dissident Romanian Magaslne Published In Philadelphia and secretly distributed In Romania. He spent two years under house arrest In Romania Wore defecting to the United States In 1985. Doe the apparent execution of the Ceausescu mean the fighting will soon be over.?

DORIN TUDORAN: Yes I hope so. As a matter of fact a lot of Romanians were wondering themselves, asking themselves why If the new leadership really captured Ceausescu and his wife didn`t show them up until today.

MR. LEHRER: You mean there is some question In some people`s mind as to whether or not Ceausescu and his wife were actually In the custody of the new Government.

MR. TUDORAN: That`s correct. And there were some rumors In Bucharest that probably at the moment they were captured they were beaten up so savagely that there was no way to show them up. So I was talking on the phone a couple of hours ago with some of my friends In Bucharest Involved the Television and they told me that people In Bucharest are getting more and more nervous about the fact that the new leadership wasn`t able at the moment to show Ceausescu and his wife.

MR. LEHRER: If we were to use, to transpose that possibility, It means this may have been killed right at the first when they were taken last Friday and then they had a trial and then announced their executions today. What do you think about that possible scenario Mr. Ambassador?

ROGER KIRK: Former U.S. Ambassador, Romania: Well that Is perfectly possible. I think the main thing Is that apparently the Ceausescus now are gone. Whether they were killed at the time they were arrested, whether they were mistreated and therefore could not be shown on television or whether it Is simply that the government decided to give them a secret trial and to get It over It. That remains to be seen.

MR. LEHRER: Why Is It Important, MR. Tudoran, which way It happened.

DORIN TUDORAN: Exiled Writer; From a democratic point of view, It should have been much more better to have an open public trial. But of course, Ifs very simple from here from Washington, or from Paris, or from London to support such a point of view, but you have to keep In mind how hated these characters were In Romania and how savagely this nation was treated In the last 25 years. So It`s a big difference to speak from a democratic point of view and being of the scene and having Ceausescu and hie wife In your own hands.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Ambassador, does It surprise you based on your years In Romania does the Intensity or the violence on both sides surprise you at all?

AMB. KIRK: Well It certainly was apparent even to an outside observer like myself that the people of Romania deeply hated the Ceausescu Regime and Ceausescu for his part was determined to stay In power by any means whaisoever. So to that extent Ifs a surprise. On the other hand, the extent of the carnage and of the resistance even It has become virtually hopeless on the part of the security forces Is an unpleasant surprise.

MR. LEHRER: Who are these people, these security people, these Securltate.

MR. TUDORAN: Who knows? After alt, but the most Important thing Is that one of the toughest comparisons made In the latest year, Hitler, Ceausescu became In a way obsolete right now because even Hitler didn`t order to the German Army to kill children In the streeis of Berlin.

MR. LEHRER: Well, he certainly ordered many Jewish Children to be killed In concentration camps.

MR. TUDORAN: Yes that Is correct. We are talking right now about nationalistic figures like Ceausescu. On the other hand, exporting the basics for years and years letting the Romanian nation to starve but Importing terrorist forces to defend yourself Is unbelievable

MR. LEHRER: That`s who these Securltate ere?

MR. TUDORAN: No. I`m talking about the foreign forces In mean Libyan. Syrians, North Koreans probably who joined the secret Romanian forces In defending desperately Ceausescu.

MR. LEHRER: Does this figure, now there are all kinds of conflicting reporis, the new government when they announced on television the deaths, the executions of the Ceausescu`s also said that 60,000 citizens of Romania had been killed In these last 11 days. Now the Hungarian radio and television said somewhere between 70 and 80. Does that figure add up to. Does that seem realistic.

AMB. KIRK: Well I think there would be two basis poinis. First It Is Impossible to now to know even In Romania to know how many people have been killed. The situation Is to confused. And secondly to my mind the main point Is not Is 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 thousand. It Is obviously thousands or tens of thousands and It`s terrible. Iis many to many. There`s always too many. It Is a terrible thing that happened. How many It will turn out to be I don`t know. But we`ve seen enough just on the television Iiself to know that It been a terrible tragedy.

MR. LEHRER: It`s going to be In that area. Would you agree with that Mr. Tudoran?

MR. TUDORAN: Yes, of course. My friends In Bucharest told me that up to them these numbers, I mean, 75 to 80 could be a little bit more exaggerated but they are thinking that probably the victims are In terms tens and terms of thousands.

MR. LEHRER: Is there any question In either of your minds that we will eventually get the full and complete and correct story here?

AMB. KIRK: Well In an situation that Is confused as this even after the fact it Is sometimes difficult to get the complete story. Certainly ever one who collaborated with the Securltate will be trying to say they did not and there will be other kinds of person motivations coming In. The picture will become a little clearer, but Iis already clear that we have a hated dictator thrown out by the brave will of the people of that nation.

MR. LEHRER: Thrown out, yes, Mr. Tudoran, but after this man has been running that country since 1965. If the hate was so severe as has been demonstrated In these last 11 days. Why did It take so long?

MR. TUDORAN: One of the explanations Is and I am very sorry to say It the good boost that Ceausescu got from some Western democracies.

MR. LEHRER: Because when he opposed the Soviet Union you mean.

MR. TUDORAN: Yes. It was very very hard for us. I mean dissidenis In Romania to explain to Western diplomais, Wesisrn Journalisis that Ceausescu were not at all a genuine political personage at the time, and I`m very sorry to say but let`s say the Ford Administration, Nixon Administration, Carter Administration boosted Ceausescu Incredibly. So I can remember when I was under house arrest. Mr. Schultx was In Bucharest still boosting Ceausescu. The Vice President, George Bush was In Bucharest.

MR. LEHRER: Guilty as charged, Mr. Ambassador. We have to share some blame here the United States.

AMB. KIRK: I think the primary reason Ceausescu was able to stay In power was his ruthless use of the tools of a totalitarian state. His control over the lives of his people which he used to stay In power for that long. After alt, hevs not the only person who has stayed In power for that long. I don`t think for myself It Is our country or any outside country that bears the responsibility for the situation.

MR. LEHRER: But wt did support did we not?

AMB. KIRK: Wt did support him.

MR. LEHRER: Knowing that he was running a totalitarian stata?

AMB. KIRK: We, In those years we felt that his policy of Independence relative. Independence toward the Soviet Union was sound. At the same time we criticized In recent years at least, very severely his human righis violations and I for example, as Ambassador went In often to the Romanian Government to complain about the human righis violations.

MR. LEHRER: How significant Is the fact that both the Soviet Union and the United States today announced that they will recognize the new government

AMB. KIRK: That`s an indication of our recognition that the new government Is In charge. It Is a normal thing for us to do but It Indicates where our sympathies are, of course, which is obvious any way.

MR. LEHRER: Well, gentlemen, thank you both for being with us tonight.

FOCUS - EVALUATING THE 80`S

MR. LEHRER: Next, we begin a week long series of discussions about the 1980s. The first one was conducted by Robert MacNeil and was taped last week.

MR. MACNEIL: For our look at the 1980s from a religious perspective, our guesis are Father Vlrgillo Ellzondo, a Roman Catholic priest who`s the rector of San Fernando Cathedral In San Antonio, Texas, where he`s also founder and President of the Mexican-American Cultural Center. Pastor Richard John Neuhaus Is a Lutheran Minister and director of the Institute on Religion In Public Life In New York. He was Pastor for 17 years la a parish in Brooklyn. Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg Is a professor of religion at Dartmouth College In Hanover, New Hampshire. He`s a former president of the American Jewish Congress and author of "The Jews In Americas Four Centuries of an Uneasy Encounter". Rev, James Forbes is minister of the Riverside Church, which has an Interdenominational following In New York city. He was formerly the pastor at several Southern Pentecostal churches. Rev. Jerry Falwell Is minister of the Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Virginia, and founder of his own television ministry. He was founder of the Moral Majority which he disbanded earlier this years. He Joins us from Lynchburg, and Episcopal Bishop Barbara Harris who serves In the diocese of Massachusetis Is the first woman to be concentrated a Bishop In the Episcopal Church, She Joins us tonight from Public Station WGBH in Boston. Rabbi Hertzberg, what do you think will turn out to have been most important about the 1980s?

RABBI ARTHUR HERTZBERG: Professor of Religion: Well, politically the end of the cold war, at least Iis transformation, the transformation of the super powers, both ourselves and the Russians, Into not so super, part of a much more plural turbulent world. The second thing I think Is fundamental Is the rise and fall of fundamentalism. I begin to feel it receding In the world, especially In the Western world. And the third thing that I think is fundamental is that a decade which began at least In the West with a fair amount of selfishness, with Thatcherlsm, and some of Iis equivalenis In this country, Is again beginning to change. There is some sense that there are poor and friendless people out there that we ought to begin to worry about and not only In our own country. And so I am personally more hopeful about the next decade.

MR. MACNEIL: Father Ellzondo, what do you see ss characterising the 80`s?

FR. VIRGILIO ELIZONDO: Catholic Priest: Well, as I work amongst the poor most of my lift, I suspect what characterizes it most is the growth in homeless people, the growth in children that will never see a home, that go from one shelter to the other, and the growth of people that have to make a choice between food or medicine or water and gas, almost like our society can no longer provide the basic necessities of life. We have a bill of righis that`s beautiful, but you don`t have food and gas and electricity, and so I see this In a painful way. I see another factor to the whole factor of Immigration into this country, especially Immigration from people who are fleeing from poverty, from violence, and violence sometimes that we are part of causing that violence, to be specific, Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Central American, and so I see that as a painful reality, the painful reality, people that are fleeing for the same reason that our ancestors came to these lands, but they`re treated as common criminals sometimes, so I see that as a painfulness. I see also a painfulness in, because of the poverty, the growth la the drug culture. The drug culture which la destroying so many of our youth that are already In misery and there`s an added misery to become totally destroyed by the drug scene, so I suspect I see the 80`s characterized by new suffering, almost like we had pre-supposed we could solve ail the problems and yet we find amongst our own midst not only the third world, certainly the third world but right here amongst us a growing population of poor and hopeless people.

MR. MACNEIL: Father Falwell, do you see the 80`s characterized by growing suffering?

REV, JERRY FALWELL: Baptist Minister (Lynchburg, VA) Well, of course there`s a great deal of that, Robin, but I look on the 80`s as the year of recovery for this country. When one looks back to 1979 just 10 years, not just the economic disarray and the military virtually disintegration of this country and the rebuilding of the economy, and the rebuilding of our military abilities to defend ourselves, I would say in ths 1980`s most Importantly, there`s been a witnessing of the bankruptcy of the liberal philosophy and the anti-moral and amoral philosophies that were so prevalent In the 1960`s and 70`s, the rebellion of young people which brought out the drug epidemic In so many to break down the family, particularly during this decade the spiritual rebirth, Fm an evangelical and I`ve watched the evangelical church here and around the world preaching Christ, the death, burial, resurrection of the Savior, receiving more receptivity everywhere and that growth, and finally as I`ve watched the Berlin Wall come down, the cry for freedom In China, and the Eastern Bloc nations, I rejoice because I see the bankruptcy of Marxist-Leninism, socialism la this country and this world. And I suppose something the national media has not addressed yet, and that Is that one man, Ronald Reagan, with his peace through strength agenda, his return to moral and traditional values agenda are responsible for that recovery more so than any other person.

MR. MACNEIL: Dr. Forbes, a decade of recovery or a decade of new suffering?

REV. JAMES FORBES: Interdenominational Protestant Minister; I think that It`s probably a decade in which we`ve had plenty of data to suggest that It was both and that the most significant thing about the decade has been how tantalizing. It has been. I started the decade In Johannesburg, South Africa, a newspaper had Botha`s picture, and I thought, my goodness, the look on his face means we may be able to see In this decade the liberation of my brothers and sisters In South Africa. That became a model of the whole thing. You saw signs that said, yes, It`s happening, but almost as soon as you began to celebrate, you`d also hear signs that oh, now, the powers that are committed to the things as they were, that power Is still too strong, and I found this all through the decade, the tantalizing decade, yes, no, freedom is on, repression has returned. Tiananmen Square reminds us of how yes, we are about to make the breakthrough and then no, there Is repression. Then for a few weeks, the freedom In Eastern Europe, and then the news constantly coming back. Is It yes? Is It no? Right to life, yes, not so sure, so I think of It as a tantalizing season which has sobered up everybody. People who celebrate are having to do so holding In brackeis very significant and significant data to the contrary. That`s the way I see this season, this decade,

MR. MACNEIL: How do you see It, Pastor Neuhaus?

PASTOR RICHARD JOHN NEUHAUS: Lutheran Minister: The overriding event mentioned by others U the collapse of the Communist tyrannies in Eastern Europe and the whole move toward freedom in the world, and what I think needs to be underscored there is the absolutely Indispensable role played by religion In that movement of liberation by the Roman Catholic throughout most of Eastern Europe, by the Lutheran Church In Eastern Germany, I would suggest that the meeting between the Pope and Gorbachev historically, and here I guess I`ll have to disagree a little bit with Dr. Falwell, Is probably a signal that it was not Ronald Reagan as much as this spiritual forces represented for hundreds of millions of people, not only Roman Catholics, by John Paul too. So that above all, and the role of religion In It. But let me mention some other things that I think were massive, the continuing decline In this society of what are now called the old line, sometimes the side line churches, and the ascendancy of evangelicalism, and I guess I`d have to disagree with you, Rabbi Hertzberg, a little bit, I don`t think If s In any way la decline, but it has matured and has entered the main line of American life, and I think we should view that as a welcome end a promising development, and of course the Increasing sure footedness of the Roman Catholic leadership In this society In terms of our public culture. One out of four Americans, It`s well to remember, are Roman Catholics, and fast growing. And so I think that even evangelicals and Roman Catholics are moving Into a vacuum that has been created by the continuing and rapid decline of the old line main line churches of America. Within Judaism, In our study at the Institute on Religion and Public Life, we spend a lot of time working at what I see Is a very promising development In the Jewish community of changing attitudes toward the role of religion and public life, and specifically church-state relations. There`s one thing that, and I think you were alluding to that, Jim Forbes, that Is new and that Is really depressing, and that Is that for the first time In the 1980s, we came to see something that is now commonly called the urban under class, not exclusively black by any means, but a real under class in American life that feels Iiself radically Isolated and Indeed has good reason for feeling radically Isolated from the channels of opportunity In American life. And what`s new about this Is not that they`re poor people, we`ve always had poor people, but there are poor people who do not see any end to being poor. And also what`s new about t Is the collapse of liberal confidence that we know what to do about It

MR. MACNEIL: Bishop Harris, what stands out for you In the 80`s?

THE RIGHT REV. BARBARA HARRIS: Episcopal Bishop: (Boston) Among other things, what stands out for me Is the growing gap between the haves and the have note not only here at home but around the globe, which Indicates to me the need for a very serious look at the redistribution of resources if, indeed, some societies, some nations, some people are going to survive In the coming decade. Certainly the other major things that people have alluded to earlier, the growing movement for freedom and justice, freedom from oppression that we have witnessed around the globe, and I would add to that the movement of women Into new and demanding roles and positions In which they heretofore were not see, these certainly are among things for me which characterized the decade of the `80s.

MR. MACNEIL: Rabbi Hertzberg, there are two people here who disagree with you quite strongly on the fall of fundamentalism and Rev. Falwell and Pastor Neuhaus both disagree with you on fundamentalism or evangelicalism. How do you see It receding?

RABBI ARTHUR HERTZBERG: Prof. of Religion: I see It receding because first of all It`s been very Intimately linked. Rev. Falwell is the major link and he made that linkage In his own remarks earlier between the evangelical conscience, as he represenis it, and Reaganism. He was praising Reagan as a supreme representative, major representative of this kind of these values In American society. Well, In the decade of Reagan we have had the very Increase In poverty and homelessness of gutting social programs, the very things that several of us are talking about, and I cannot agree at all with my very old friend and colleague, Pastor Neuhaus`s remark that this Is not knowing what to do with It Is "the collapse of liberal confidence." Homelessness Is not the collapse of liberalism. It Is the collapse of conservatism. It Is the collapse of the Idea that we`re going to save your soul and you worry about your body within the rough era, within the rough arena of capitalism.

MR. MACNEIL: Well, let me ask Rev. Falwell on that provocative point. It`s not the collapse of liberalism but the collapse of conservatism, Mr. Falwell.

REV. JERRY FALWELL: Baptist Minister: I hear that, Robin. But I think of the conservative ministers around this country, Dr. Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, Charles Stanley, Jim Kennedy, et cetera, et cetera, we`re the one who are operating over 900 homes for unwed mothers at our total expense, no government funding, We`re the ones who are conducting feeding centers. We at Lynchburg, Virginia, have a love kitchen In Manhattan where we feed thousands of people every year, our gift, and the evangelical church, add to that the Salvation Army as a part of It, a very evangelical part of the ministry, caring at this time of the year and 52 weeks a year for the hurting people. I hear the liberals like the Rabbi talking about those terrible conservatives, and I hear their preachmenis on the Issue, but except for wanting to exact It from the taxpayer, I don`t see them doing very much to solve the problem of homelessness and hunger. I see those evangelicals and conservative Christians and Jews and Protestant and Catholic oat there doing It while others are talking about It.

MR. MACNEIL: You raised this issue first, Father Elliondo. Where do you come down on this? Is evangelical or fundamentalism rising or In decline?

FR. ELIZONDO: I don`t see It declining but I see It moving towards what I call a foundattonallsm, to moving more and more to what we as Christians consider the person of Jesus of Naaareth, not Just a word around him and the person who Identified himself with the poor and the struggling to give them new alternatives, to give them new hope, new possibilities, and I see this In line with the biblical prophecy of giving new alternatives of the dreams that weren`t there to be dreamed by anyone. I feel that today the churches are definitely doing a lot, the conservative and liberal, evangelical, main line, all of the churches, and the synagogues, however, what Pd like to say Is that to me there`s a failure, there`s a failure la our country of our business community and the political community, because more and more people are not even expecting the possibility of finding jobs. People want to work. Many of my poor people come there looking for Jobs; they don`t want social welfare. They want the dignity of work, but I think there Is a failure la our country that we need to address seriously. Today Fm told by college students that the college students of tomorrow will probably make much more money when they get out, but many less college graduates will be able to find a Job. That`s scary.

MR. MACNEIL: You thought that evangelicalism Is not In decline but on the rise.

PASTOR NEUHAUS: Right In several respects and we could get Into a leagthy discussion of public policy options In terms of the homeless or poverty and so forth, but I`m not sure that would be the best use of our time. And in fact, one of the hard things to do and this happened In the 80`s Is that we discovered this how hard It is to separate religion and politics.

MR. MACNEIL: Well, should it be separated?

PASTOR NEUHAUS: No, It shouldn`t be separated. Obviously they mix. It`s a question of how they mix, and they`re always going to be mixing, but It`s a question of which has priority. It`s a question of whether the religious truth claims and the religious commitments have a normative role in terms of one`s political and social thought or whether, in fact, religion is captive to a political agenda. Now it used to be said, and this Is of course a development that Dr. Falwell has had a very prominent role In, It used to be said In the `50s and `60s by people like Dr. Falwell that the problem with liberal Christians Is that they`re always mixing religion and politics. Now we have seen the last ten, twelve years the same development on the right of the political and social spectrum, and I think it`s as dangerous there, liberation theology In the sense of Chrintlantty or biblical religion taken captive to an Ideology and political agenda Is as dangerous on the left as on the right. Evangelicalism, to get back to your exact point, iis maturing now I think. There was a period of time, people see a closing down the Moral Majority, or the absence of Religious Roundtable, Christian Voice, some of the groups that really were prominent In the late 1970`s as a sign of the decline of the religious right. I think that`s a big mistake. That high profile organization kind of organization and that high profile figures such as Dr. Falwell were essential to launch something, but It has now been launched, and there are millions, millions upon millions of evangelical fundamentalisis, conservative Christians, who are now engaged In the political process, active in the public arena, In a long-term way for the duration, and that, It seems to me, Is what is meant by the maturing of the evangelicalism and all la all, whether we agree or disagree with the political dispositions, we ought to welcome It as a sign of the revitalization of the American democratic process.

MR. MACNEIL: Dr. Forbes.

REV. FORBES: I happen to think that the problem is not who`s ahead and who`s declining whether It`s the liberal or the conservative. My belief is that we live In en Increasingly secular society by which I mean that the significance of the transcendent Is not factored la as much, nor the role considered as Important for religious activities. And I think that`s part of our modern culture. And therefore I see liberals and conservatives engaged In attempts to adjust to the absence of a central concern about the transcendent. And I having lived In both traditions and also maintaining contact there, I see sometimes when evangelicals say It Is true that I understand that truth almost needs to be reinforced by a deep commitment to It at least articulated within increasing debt.

MR. MACNEIL: Let me ask Bishop Harris, do you think this is an Increasingly secular society?

BISHOP HARRIS: In some ways It certainly Is. However, I would like to say that I believe we run the risk of measuring decline or ascendancy by playing the numbers game. And I think we ought to be more concerned about the Impact that religion, whether evangelical, liberal, mala Una denomination, what have you, the Impact that religion Is having on the lives of people as they wrestle with the day to day Issues and the ethical Issues that confront us In this time.

MR. MACNEIL: Let`s take your definition. Is religion In It`s various forms having a greater and real Impact on people`s lives or a less Impact today than a decade ago?

BISHOP HARRIS: I believe that it Is having less Impact, unfortunately, because some of the churches are falling to speak to Issues that so dramatically Impact upon people`s lives.

MR. MACNEIL: Do you want to see which churches?

BISHOP HARRIS: There`s enough blame to go around throughout our various religious groupings. I think some are addressing some Issues better than others, and I think some of our religious groups are burying their heads in the sand.

REV. NEUHAUS: May I Just say mention that we have a great deal of survey, research data, as to whether there Is or Is not greater secularization, and by that data, the answer Is emphatically no, but America is persistently and probably growingly religious If you document the kind of stuff ths survey research can get at, what people say they believe, what

MR. MACNEIL: Growingly religious In the so-called main line old churches?

REV. NEUHAUS: No. The old Hue churches are in rapid decline, the Presbyterian Church USA, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ have all declined over the last 1/4 of a century If you take Into what was projected growth on a demographic basis, have declined by more than 50 percent. These are churches that are In deep trouble. The National Council of Churches, an Institution that 25 years ago - and I say this with sorrow, because I think that main line Is critically Important to America, and I do not like -

MR. MACNEIL: Why Is It critically important?

REV. NEUHAUS: Because it is the bearer of the constituting moral tradition of the American democratic process.

MR. MACNEIL: Do you agree with that, Rev. Falwell, that It`s Important and essential for that reason?

REV. FALWELL: I do not. And I would say with Pastor Neuhaus who a moment mentioned Pope John Paul II, I think there`s a very real sense of the sovereignty of God In this past decade la the placement of the Pope John Paul IPs, the Anwar Sadais, the Menachem Begins, the Margaret Thatchers, the Ronald Reagans In key places, and more than that, I would add Billy Graham and his opportunity going to Eastern Bloc nations to preach the gospel, the placement of men like John O`Connor, Bernard Law In New York and Boston, men of great principle, great commitment to morality and decency and family values and biblical tradition, all of that as collectively - and I didn`t mean to leave the Impression that a political figure alone - I think that God Almighty through so many millions of people but particularly key people, they have helped bring this world back to the realization that what really means something In life Is a relationship to God, and a personal relationship with him. As Bishop Harris said a moment ago those churches and movements that are ministering to the personal, real life needs of families, Individuals, teenagers, children, those are the ministries that are growing, and those who are still steeped in ritualism and formalism are those that are dying on the vine.

MR. MACNEIL: What do you say to that, Rabbi Hertzberg?

RABBI HERTZBERG: I have difficulty with most of that. First of all, let`s talk about John Paul II. What Is significant about John Paul II is that he has said repeatedly without embracing liberation theology that capitalism Is not necessarily the will of God and concern for the poor Is essential. Now by concern for the poor he doss not mean, If I understand him correctly, I certainly do not mean how many soup kitchens and how many overnight shelters we run. The synagogues rule the, the churches rule them. A very great Jewish moralist, Israel of Salaam said the middle of the 19th century that the way to save your soul Is to save someone else`s body. Now we are sot saving enough bodies because the very litany of figures whom Dr. Falwell has Just been announcing are people who are very much concerned about what may be inside you but seem to me not to be sufficiently concerned about the kind of society which makes Jobs which ends the under class, and don`t buy this sniffing at liberalism. I`m very proud of my Jewish community which continues to be the only white community la America which votes 70 percent plus consistently for state Involvement la helping the poor.

MR. MACNEIL: Fm not clear what you were saying about Pope John Paul II. Is he on the wrong side of the fence -

RABBI HERTZBERG: No, on this Issue he is very much on the right side of the fence. John Paul Is not the figure who is interested In saving souls, he`s not out there simply evangelizing, he`s Interested in the nature of society.

MR. MACNEIL: Rev. Falwell.

REV. FALWELL: Robin. John Paul II is also the first Polish Pope who said If this Soviets attempt to go Into Poland, as they were threatening In the 80`s, he would lay down his crown and stand In front of their tanks. He was the man who also condemned Marxist Leninism.

RABBI HERTZBERG: Don`t suggest that I`m not condemning It,

REV. FALWELL: He most certainly did and he did take a stand for freedom, liberty, and as Pastor Neuhaus said

RABBI HERTZBERG: And for social Jostles.

REV. FALWELL: he along with the other voices I`ve Just mentioned played poker with the Soviets end didn`t blink, end that`s why the walls come down and the people have had the courage to stand up and demand

MR. MACNEIL: And yet Pope Paul has not been sympathetic to the liberation theology REV.

FALWELL: No, he hasn`t. Nor have I.

MR. MACNEIL: - that I think you`re somewhat sympathetic to, Fr. Elisondo.

FR. VIRGILIO ELIZONDO: Catholic Priest: I think I would disagree that he has not been sympathetic to it. I think he has certainly criticized some extremes of It, but he said very openly In an open statement liberation theology was not only good but absolutely necessary. And I think It`s a very Important. Also he certainly has condemned Marxism, Leninism and so forth very strongly In no uncertain terms. But equally he has questioned liberal capitalism like nobody else has. His statemenis on the nature of society and the nature of work and so forth are very very critical statemenis.

PASTOR NEUHAUS: We were Just reading our dally papers, that the people who have actually experienced In this century one of the two great repudiations of liberal democratic capitalism, the other being national socialism, Nasism, and then Marxist Leninism, the people have experienced that, now we are discovering Deo gratia, thank God, that they come out not as Orwell`s, you know, robois who have had their minds reworked and so forth, but they come out as people with an enormous sense of humaa dignity and the yearning for freedom and the priority of the spiritual. I think you`re right. John Paul n, for example, John Paul II has said some favorable things about what he defines as liberation theology.

MR. MACNEIL: Excuse me for Interrupting you. We Just have a few minutes left. One of the things that has characterized so much commentary about the 80`s Is greed, materialism, selfishness. How do you know that these people coming out won`t have a short-term priority for the spiritual and then quickly -

PASTOR NEUHAUS: Freedom Is always a high risk proposition. Freedom bestowed Is almost certainly to be freedom abused in many many circumstances, but I think It Is almost, really, it bends the mind to think that here we are witnessing the triumph of the liberal democratic idea after the three great efforis to resist It, the French Revolution, Nanism, and Marxist Leninism, and we who have been all undeserving, for we know that there`s a lot wrong with this society and with the Western world generally, but we who have been the bearers of that liberal democratic tradition are so hesitant to say thank God that it Is triumphing at last, let` s hope that they do a better Job with this than they have, let`s hope that they do not fall prey to ail the corruption`s to which ws have fallen prey, let`s hope that they demonstrate the capacity of putting together liberal capitalism and genuine human community where everybody`s Included in a way better than we have and If I --

MR. MACNEIL: Liberal capitalism, Mr. Falwell?

REV. FALWELL: Well, you know, the word liberal has a thousand different definitions and changes every 10 year. But I`m certainly a firm believer In capitalism. I look upon socialism as mutually shared poverty, and I notice that nobody Is revolting In America for a Marxist-Leninist society, So I would say that thank God for what`s happening la Eastern Europe, let` s encourage It, let`s encourage It In China. I would hope, I like what happened la Panama yesterday. But I look upon Mr. Ortega and Mr. Castro as being the beast that Mr. Noriega is, and the repressors of human rights. And so we need to call a spade a spade and pray for freedom everywhere, not Just on the right but on the left as well.

MR. MACNEIL: Bishop Harris.

BISHOP HARRIS: As we do celebrate what is happening at Eastern Europe and other places, for example, I would certainly hope that we would respect whatever Ideology emerges out of those situations that might be indigenous to those people and not try to Impose upon others what has not even worked for us and that we would respect what they develop,

MR. MACNEIL: What has not worked for us?

BISHOP HARRIS: Well, capitalism has not worked that well for many maay people.

REV. FALWELL: Says who?

MR. MACNEIL: Says Bishop Harris. Let her say It

REV. FALWELL: And about tea or twelve Others.

BISHOP HARRIS: Yes, If you will ask the people sleeping on grates over the street. REV. FALWELL: Well, you can go Into the Soviet Union, you can go Into East Germany, you can go Into China, and you`ll find the starvation, you`ll find the hunger, you`ll find the depravation hundreds of times multiplied what It Is la a free enterprise society like the U.S. We want to correct the problem here and I do believe -

BISHOP HARRIS: We absolutely must.

MR. MACNEIL: Dr. Forbes.

REV. FORBES: Yes. The issue for me Is that when people start celebrating how well things have worked for us, the Issue for me Is who Is included In that us. We`ve got to acknowledge that la our time there Is aa Increasing body of our own people who are denied housing and food, employment, and access to education. And add to that not only In our country, but all around the world third world nations over against those other nations, and we seem to think that If we`re doing all right, then obviously we must celebrate that this Is the best way to go. For me, It Is not comparing whether there Is more hunger In the Soviet Union or less here as much as whether we can afford to celebrate the benefit of free enterprise and capitalism without factoring In what I call the conscientiousness regarding the human agenda.

REV. NEUHAUS: Jim, I wonder If you wouldn`t agree though -

MR. MACNEIL: Gentlemen.

REV. NEUHAUS: - or, Dr. Forbes, our task Is to Include people as much as possible, those people who have been excluded from opportunities presented by freedom and democratic capitalism.

REV. FORBES: Oh, I am for freedom.

REV. NEUHAUS: That`s our goal, to include.

REV. FORBES: I`m for freedom. My name Is Forbes and capitalism is Identified with tt, but for me the task Is to grade ourselves largely by our capacity la the system to meet the needs of those who have not been provided for.

MR. MACNEIL: Rabbi Herisberg.

RABBI HERTZBERG: I keep hearing the word freedom and I keep thinking of the French writer In the middle of the 19th century who said the rich and poor alike are free on a rainy night to sleep outside under some bridge. Freedom becomes quite meaningless to the under class of this country, and It seems to me that unless we have that In front of us and are reminded that the "we" is very few is very few or relatively few, and that we owe a moral responsibility, we don`t enter into the next decade with any real revival of religion.

MR. MACNEIL: Okay, I`d love to go on with this, but we must end It somewhere and we`ll end It there. I`d like to thank all of you very much. Rabbi Herisberg, Rev. Falwell, Bishop Harris, Father Ellzondo, Dr. Forbes, and Pastor Neuhaus, thank you.

ESSAY - CHRISTMAS DAY

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight, some thoughis and words about Christmas from Roger Mudd.

MR. MUDD: We all remember Dr. Seuss`s story about the Grinch who had a heart two sizes too small and how the Grinch hated Christmas and how even after the Grinch had stolen all the trees and all the ornaments and all the tinsel that Christmas came anyway and how in the end the Grinch decided that maybe Christmas didn`t come from a store after all. Dr. Seuss wrote this story more than 30 years ago, but It`s In serious need of updating. Every contemporary indicator, every cultural marker, tells us that Christmas does come from a store. The pressure to buy now begins before Thanksgiving, Stores seem to be open 24 hours a day. Christmas advertising becomes pervasive. The furrier who rewrites Clement Moore`s beloved poem "Twas the week before Christmas, the weather was cold, our buyers kept meeting without being told. Both Judy and Peter who purchase oar mink looked out at chilled women and started to think." Everything seems to be geared to be reducing Christmas either to being part of the GNP, a pain in the neck, a cause for depression or no occasion at all. Harper`s Magazine has three main stories this month, drugs, Hollywood, and Pinochet. The Atlantic has on It`s cover, "Can We Be Good Without God?. House and Garden, whose rich pages used to be filled with photographs of Christmas from all over the world la virtually stripped bare. The New Yorker, which seemingly is more comfortable with traditional, has a sort of Christmas cover, but Time Magazine on It`s Issue dated December 25th carries the seamless face of a 27 year old movie actor Tom Terrifle. What`s happened to America`s embrace of Christmas? Why are we so reluctant to stand up for this great annual reaffirmation of mercy and compassion? It`s as If as a nation we were afraid to make too much of religion. Once again we turn to our poeis to do our celebrating. ("A Christmas Hymn", Richard Wilbur) "A stable lamp Is lighted whose glow shall wake the sky. The stars shall bed their voices and every stone shall cry. And every stone shall cry and straw like gold shall shine. A barn shall harbor heaven, a stall become a shrine." ("Carol of the Brown King", Langston Hughes) "Of the three wise men who came to the king, one was a brown man, so they sing. Of the three wise men who followed the star, one was a brown king from afar. They brought fine gifis of spices and gold In jeweled boxes of beauty untold. Unto his humble manger they came and bowed their heads In Jesus` name. Three wise men, one dark like me, part of his Nativity," ("For Allan", Robert Frost) "Among these mountains do you know. I have a farm and on It grow a thousand lovely Christmas trees. I`d like to send you one of these, but If a against he laws. A man may give a little boy a book, a useful knife, a toy, or even a rhyme like this by see, I wrote It just like this you see, but nobody may give a tree excepting Santa Claus." (The Oxen, Tom Hardy) "Christmas Eve end 12 of the clock, `Now they are all on their knees,` an elder said, `as we sat in a flock by the embers In hearthside ease, we pictured the meek mild creatures where they dwelt In their straw pen. Nor did it occur to one of us there to doubt they were kneeling then. So fair a fancy few would weave in those years. Yet, I feel If someone said on Christmas Eve, "Come, see the oxen kneel In the lonely barton by yonder coomb our childhood used to know, I should go with him In the gloom, hoping it might be so." ("Christmas Bells", Henry Wadsworth Longfellow) "I heard the bells of Christmas Day, their old familiar carols play, and wild and sweet, the words repeat of peace on earth, good will to men."

RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Christmas Day, In Romania, ousted Communist Leader Nicolas Ceausescu and his wife Elana were executed following a secret trial for crimes described as particularly grave, The announcement came from the new government at pro Ceausescu security force continued to fight for survive against army troops supporting the revolution. There were Hungarian reports that between seventy and eighty thousand people had died In the 11 day revolution, but Romanian authorities denied the figure was that high and there was no other confirmation. In Panama, ousted ruler Manuel Noriega remained at the Vatican`s embassy la Panama City. There were wire reports negotiations are underway that could lead to Noriega`s being allowed to leave for Cuba for some other country.

We`ll see you tomorrow night. I`m Jim Lehrer. Thank you and a Merry Christmas night.