The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MacNeil: Good evening. Leading the news this Wednesday, the U.S. said it is on the verge of a total military victory over Iraq. But allied forces are still fighting a massive tank battle with the elite Republican Guard. Much of Kuwait has been freed from Iraqi control. The allied coalition rejected another Iraqi appeal for a cease-fire. We'll have details in a moment. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: On the NewsHour tonight we have full coverage from both the military and diplomatic fronts. It includes a report from Kuwait City, extended excerpts from the briefing of the allied commander, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, and four views of when and how it all should end. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: The United States claiming that allied forces were on the verge of total military victory rejected new Iraqi attempts to bargain for a cease-fire. In Eastern Iraq, U.S. tanks fought the remnants of Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard in the largest tank battle since World War II. Allied Commander Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf said there was no escape for the Iraqi forces trapped 50 miles West of Basra, adding, "The gates are closed." In Washington, Sec. of Defense Dick Cheney gave his assessment of the war at a meeting of the American Legion.

SEC. CHENEY: Saddam Hussein promised that he would conduct "the mother of all battles". Obviously it looks like what's happened is that the mother of all battles has turned into the mother of all retreats. The U.S. and allied forces are on the verge of a complete and total victory in terms of liberating Kuwait and destroying Saddam Hussein's offensive military capability.

MR. MacNeil: The U.S. and its allied partners rejected statements at the United Nations that Iraq would accept all 12 UN resolutions if the coalition ordered a cease-fire. White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater said Iraq was still trying to set conditions. This came while allied planes continued to bomb Baghdad. We have a report from the Iraqi capital by Edward Storten of Independent Television News. The report was cleared by Iraqi censors.

MR. STORTEN: It was without doubt the closest, the fiercest air battle we have seen in the past days. And it came as Saddam Hussein's concession over the United Nations Security Council resolutions were still being digested. One building not far from here we could see taking a direct hit, the air raid sirens sounding off after the bombing began. The Iraqis have begun to read the night skies like a political map. There was no doubt about the message tonight. FOCUS - NIGHTMARE'S END

MR. LEHRER: Earlier in the day, Iraq claimed all its soldiers were gone from Kuwait by dawn. Kuwait City, the capital, and the major symbol of its occupation by Iraq is now completely free. We have a report from there by Peter Sharpe of Independent Television News.

MR. SHARPE: It was easy to find Kuwait City; the huge columns of smoke from hundreds of ruptured oil wells led the way like black marker posts to the outskirts of the city, and encircling Kuwait the abandoned Iraqi defensive line, each position marked by burnt up Iraqi armor. Hundreds of tanks were destroyed along this line alone, their broken barrels signs of the advancing elements of the Marines' First Division. And early this morning, they started streaming through, the vanguard of the Saudi and Kuwaiti forces entering the city. It had long ago been agreed that the honor of liberating the capital would fall to them. And to greet them, the people of Kuwait, who had been freed from seven months of virtual house arrest. What started as a military convoy ended in the city center as a victory parade. And this time the gunfire was in celebration. The American forces are just a few miles down the road behind us. How do you feel today?

KUWAITI CITIZEN: Very happy, extremely happy. It's like a nightmare that has gone away.

MR. SHARPE: This morning what was left of Saddam Hussein's army in Kuwait City was under guard outside the American embassy. Many had been abandoned by their own officers as they fled the city. And this is what they left behind. No area of Kuwait City had escaped. In the last desperate hours of occupation, whole shopping complexes were set ablaze. The troops deliberately burnt what they could in the time they had left. All the major city hotels were badly damaged. At the building used by the Iraqis as an interrogation center, Kuwaiti resistance fighters had taken up residence. It was in these cells they said that hundreds of their countrymen were tortured and killed over the last seven months in circumstances which will become more detailed as the survivors begin to talk. [KUWAITI DESCRIBING TORTURE BY IRAQIS]

MR. SHARPE: But there were no calls for retribution today, just the delight in their newfound freedom and a preoccupation with the tools of war that had ensured their captivity. Huge arms supplies have been left behind by the Iraqis. Today young Kuwaitis set to work destroying the signs and symbols of occupation, trying in these first moments of freedom to rid themselves of any reminders of their enemy.

MR. LEHRER: The commander of U.S. Marine forces in the Gulf gave pool reporters his impressions of the final push toward Kuwait City. Lt. Gen. Walt Boomer said in the end the enemy was simply overwhelmed.

LT. GEN. BOOMER: We drove forward in a hurry using air, artillery, followed up by the division's mechanized task forces. So I think we kept 'em off balance as we moved from South to North. In some cases, that was a tremendous asset to us because they just weren't able to react fast enough. I expected them to fight harder than they did and we were prepared for that. And we were talking earlier, if they had stayed in every single bunker and fought out every bunker, the result would have been the same. They still would have lost. Our casualties would have been higher, so thank God, that didn't happen.

REPORTER: Has he left a lot of his weapons and guns and tanks on the field?

LT. GEN. WALTER BOOMER, U.S. Marine Corps: There are thousands and thousands of vehicles here, weapons, some of it destroyed, some of it left. In fact, we're going to go back now and try to police some of that and clean up the battlefield a little bit.

REPORTER: So Saddam now may have a lot of troops but he's lost an awful lot of his arms, is that right?

LT. BOOMER: Certainly those that were in Southern Kuwait he's lost. I mean, it's finished. It's dead as far as an army is concerned, and I know the U.S. Army to the West which is the process of moving East is going to have the same success that we did. So I think by the time it's all over his army will be, will be finished, and deservedly so. I mean, you can see the destruction here, the destruction of this country. FOCUS - TOP GUN

MR. LEHRER: The major briefing on the overall progress of the war came from the man in charge, Army Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf. He spoke to reporters in Riyadh this afternoon. Here's an extended excerpt.

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: This goes back to 7 August, the 17th of January. As you recall, we started our deployment on the 7th of August. Basically what we started out against was a couple of hundred thousand Iraqis that were in the Kuwait theater of operation. I don't have to remind you all that we brought over initially defensive forces in the form of the 101st, the 82nd, the 24th Mechanized Infantry Division, the 3rd Armored Cavalry, and in essence, we had them arrayed to the South, behind the Saudi task force. Also there were Arab forces over here in this area arrayed in defensive positions, and that, in essence, is the way we started. In the middle of November, the decision was made to increase the force because by that time huge numbers of Iraqi forces had flowed into the area and generally in the disposition as they're shown right here, therefore, we increased the forces and built up more forces. I would tell you that at this time we made a very deliberate decision to align all of those forces within the boundary looking North towards Kuwait, this being King Kaliv Military City over here. So we aligned those forces so it very much looked like they were all aligned directly on the Iraqi position. We also at that time had a very active Naval presence out in the Gulf and we made sure that everybody understood about that Naval presence. One of the reasons why we did that is because it became very apparent to us early on that the Iraqis were quite concerned about an amphibious operation across the shores to liberate Kuwait, this being Kuwait City. They put a very, very heavy barrier of infantry along here and they proceeded to build an extensive barrier that wentall the way across the border down and around and up the side of Kuwait. Basically, the problem we were faced with was this, when you look at the troop numbers, they really outnumber us about three to two, and when you consider the number of combat service support people that we have, and that sort of thing in our armed forces, as far as fighting troops, we're really outnumbered two to one. In addition to that, they had 4,700 tanks versus our 3,500 when the build-up was complete and they had a great deal more artillery than we do. I think any student of military strategy would tell you that in order to attack a position, you should have a ratio of approximately 3 to 1 in favor of the attacker. In order to attack a position that is heavily dug in and barricaded, such as the one we have here, you should have a ratio of 5 to 1 in the way of troops in favor of the attacker. Next chart, please. What you see here is a color coding where green is a go sign or a good sign as far as our forces are concerned. Yellow would be a caution sign and red would be a stop sign. Green represents units that have been attributed below 50 percent strength. The yellow are units that are between 50 and 75 percent strength. And of course, the red are units that are over 75 percent strength. What we did, of course, was start an extensive air campaign, and I briefed you in quite some detail on that in the past. One of the purposes I told you at that time of that extensive air campaign was to isolate the Kuwaiti theater of operation by taking out all the bridges and supply lines that ran between the North and the Southern part of Kuwait. That was to prevent reinforcement and supplies coming into the Southern part of Iraq and the Kuwaiti field of operation. We also conducted a very heavy bombing campaign and many people questioned why, why the extensive bombing campaign. This is the reason why. It was necessary to reduce these forces down to a strength that was, that made them weaker, particularly along the front line barriers that we had to go through. We continued our heavy operations out in the sea because we wanted the Iraqis to continue to believe that we were going to conduct a massive amphibious operation in this area, and I think many of you recall the number of amphibious rehearsals we had to include imminent thunder that was written about quite extensively for many reasons. But we continued to have those operations because we wanted him to come concentrate his forces, which he did. I think this is probably one of the most important parts of the entire briefing I could talk about. As you know, very early on we took out the Iraqi air force. We knew that he had very very limited reconnaissance means and therefore, when we took out his air force, for all intents and purposes, we took out his ability to see what we were doing down here in Saudi Arabia. Once we had taken out his eyes, we did what could best be described as the Hail Mary play in football. I think you recall when the quarterback was desperate for a touchdown at the very end, what he does is he steps up behind the center and all of a sudden every single one of his receivers goes way out to one flank, or they all run down the field as fast as they possibly can into the end zone and he lobs the ball. In essence, that's what we did. When we knew that he couldn't see us anymore, we did a massive movement of troops all the way out to the West, to the extreme West, because at that time we knew that he was still fixed in this area with the vast majority of is forces and once the air campaign started, he would be incapable of moving out to counter this move even if he knew we made it. Not only did we move the troops out there, but we literally moved thousands and thousands of tons of fuel, of ammunition, of spare parts, of water, and of food out here into this area because we wanted to have enough supplies on hand so if we launched this and we got into a slug fest battle, which we very easily could have gotten into, we'd have enough supplies to last for 60 days. By the 23rd of February, what you found is this situation. The front lines had benefited down to a point where all of these units were 50 percent or below. The second level basically that we had to face, and these were the real tough fighters that we were worried about right here, were attrited to some place between 50 and 70 percent, although we still had the Republican Guard located here and here and part of the Republican Guard in this area were very strong and the Republican Guard up in this area was strong, and we continued to hit the bridges all across this area to make absolutely sure that no more reinforcements came into the battle. This is the situation on the 23rd of February. We put special forces deep into the enemy territory. They went out on strategic reconnaissance for us and they let us know what was going on out there and they were the eyes that were out there. It's very important that I not forget those folks. Next, please. This then was the morning of the 24th. Our plan initially had been to start over here in this area and do exactly what the Iraqis thought we were going to do, and that's take them on head on into their most heavily defended areas. Also, at the same time we launched amphibious tanks and Naval gunfire in this area so that they continued to take what we were going to be attacking along this post and therefore fixed their forces in this position. Our hope was that by fixing the forces in this position and with this attack through here in this position we would basically keep the forces here and they wouldn't know what was going on out in this area, and I believe we succeeded in that very well. At 4 o'clock in the morning the Marines, the First Marine Division and Second Marine Division launched attacks through the barrier system. They were accompanied by the 2nd, the Tiger Brigade, the U.S. Army Tiger Brigade of the 2nd Armor Division. At the same time over here two Saudi task forces also launched the penetration through this barrier, but while they were doing that at 4 o'clock in the morning over here, the 6th French Armor Division accompanied by a brigade of the 82nd Airborne also launched an over land attack to their objective up in this area, Alsamon Air Field, and we were held up a little bit by the weather but by 8 o'clock in the morning the 101st Airborne Air Assault launched an air assault deep into enemy territory to establish a forward operating base in this location right here. What we found was as soon as we breached these obstacles here and started bringing pressure, we started getting a large number of surrenders. And I think I talked to some of you all about that this evening when I briefed you on the evening of the 24th. We finally got a large number of surrenders. We also found that these forces right here were getting a large number of surrenders and were meeting with a great deal of success. We were worried about the weather. The weather, it turned out, was going to get pretty bad the next day and we were worried about launching this air assault and also started to have a huge number of atrocities of really the most unspeakable type committed in downtown Kuwait City to include reports that the desalination plant had been destroyed and when we heard that, we were quite concerned about what might be going on. Based upon that and the situation that was developing, we made a decision that rather than wait the following morning to launch the remainder of these forces that we'd go ahead and launch those forces that afternoon. Next. So this was the situation we saw the afternoon of the 24th. The Marines continued to make great progress, going through the breach in this area and were moving rapidly North. The Saudi task force on the East Coast was also moving rapidly to the North and making very, very good progress. We launched another Egyptian-Arab force in this location and another Saudi force in this location again to penetrate the barrier but once again to make the enemy continue to think that we're doing exactly what he wanted us to do and that's make a head long assault into a very very tough barrier system, a very very tough mission for these folks. But at the same time what we did is continued to attack with the French. We continued, we launched an attack on the part of the entire 7th Corps, where the 1st Infantry Division went through, breached an obstacle and mine field barrier here, established quite a large breach through which we passed the 1st British Armor Division, at the same time we launched the 1st Armor Division, the 3rd Armor Division, and because of our deception plan and the way it worked, we didn't even have to worry about a barrier, we just went right around the enemy and were behind him in no time at all. The 2nd Armored Calvary Division and the 24th Mech Division also launched out here in the Far West and I ought to talk about the 101st because this is an important point. Once the 101st had their forward operating base established here, they then went ahead and launched into the Tigress of the Euphrates Valley. There's a lot of people who are still saying that the object of the United States of America was to capture Iraq and cause a downfall of the entire country of Iraq. Ladies and gentlemen, well, we were here. We were 150 miles away from Baghdad and there was nobody between us and Baghdad. If it had been our intention to take Iraq, if it had been our intention to destroy the country, if it had been our intention to overrun the country, we could have done it unopposed for all intents and purposes from this position at that time. But that was not our intention. We had never said it was our intention. Our intention was clearly to eject the Iraqis out of Kuwait and destroy the military power that had come in here. So this was the situation at the end of February the 24th in the afternoon. Next, please. The next two days went exactly like we thought they would go. The Saudis continued to make great progress up on the Eastern flank, keeping the pressure off the Marines and the flank here, the Special Forces went out and started operating small boat operations out in this area to help clear mines but also to threaten the flanks here and to continue to make them think we were, in fact, going to conduct amphibious operations. The Saudi forces and Arab forces that came in and took these two initial objectives turned to come in on the flank, heading towards Kuwait City, located right in this area here. The British UK passed through and continued to attack up this flank and of course the 7th Corps came in and attacked in this direction, as shown here. The 24th Infantry Division made an unbelievable move, all the way across into the Tigress and the Euphrates Valley and succeeded in blocking this avenue of egress out which was the only avenue of egress left because we continued to make sure that the bridges stayed down. So there was no way out once the 24th was in this area and the 101st continued to operate in here, the French having succeeded in achieving all of their objectives, then set up a flanking position, a flank guard position here to make sure that no forces could come in and get us from the flank. By this time, we had destroyed or rendered completely ineffective over 21 Iraqi divisions. Next, please. And, of course, that then brings us to today. Where we are today is we now have a solid wall across the North of the 18th Airborne Corps, consisting of the unit shown right here attacking straight to the East. We have a solid wall here again of the 7th Corps also attacking straight to the East. The forces that they are fighting right now are the forces of the Republican Guard. Again, today we had a very significant day when the Arab forces coming from both the West and East closed then and moved into Kuwait City, where they are now in the process of clearing Kuwait City entirely and assuring that it's absolutely secure. The 1st Marine Division continues to hold Kuwaiti International Airport. The 2nd Marine Division continues to be in a position where it blocks any egress out of the City of Kuwait so no one can leave. To date, we have destroyed over 29, destroyed or rendered inoperable. I don't like to say destroyed, because that gives you the visions of absolutely killing everyone, and that's not what we're doing, but we have rendered completely ineffective over 29 Iraqi divisions and the gates are closed. There was no way out of here. There was no way out here and the enemy is fighting us in this location right here. We continue of course on the air power. The air has done a terrific job from start to finish in supporting the ground forces and we also have had great support from the Navy, both in the form of Naval gunfire and in the support of carrier air. That's the situation at the present time.

REPORTER: The chart you showed there with the attrition rates of various forces was almost the exact reverse of what most of us thought was happening. It showed the front line troops attrited to 75 percent or more and the Republican Guard, which a lot of public focuses on when we were covering the air war, attrited less than 75. Why is that? I mean, how did it come to pass?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: What happened is the air campaign shifted from the strategic phase into the theater and we knew all along that this was the important area. The nightmare scenario, the nightmare scenario for all of us would have been to go through, get hung up in this breach right here and then have the enemy artillery rain chemical weapons down on troops that were in a gaggle in the breach right here. That was the nightmare scenario. So one of the things that we felt we must establish is an absolute, as much destruction as we could possibly get of the artillery, the direct support artillery that would be firing on that wire. That's why we shifted and in the very latter days we absolutely punished this area very heavily because that was the first challenge. Once we got through this and were moving, then it's a different war. Then we're fighting our kind of war. Before we get through that, we're fighting their kind of war and that's what we didn't want to have to do.

REPORTER: I wonder if -- despite these enormously illustrated pictures -- you could say what's left of the Iraqi army in terms of how long could it be before he could ever be a regional threat, a threat to the region again.

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: Well, there's not enough left at all for him to be a threat to the region, offensive regional threat. As you know, he has got a very large army, but most of the army that has left more of the Tigress-Euphrates Valley is an infantry army. It's not an armored army, it's not an armor heavy army, which means it really isn't an offensive army, so it doesn't have enough left unless someone chooses to rearm them in the future.

REPORTER: You said -- you've got all these divisions along the border which were seriously attrited. It figures to be about 200,000 troops maybe that were there. We've got 50,000 prisoners. Where's the rest of them?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: There were a very very large number of dead in these units, a very very large number of dead. We even found them when we went into the units ourselves and found them in the trench lines. There were very heavy desertions. At one point we had reports of desertion rates of more than 30 percent of the units that were along the front here. As you know, we had quite a large number of POWs that came across and so I think it's a combination of desertion, it's a combination of people that were killed, it's a combination of the people that we've captured, and it's a combination of some other people who are just flat still running.

REPORTER: What kind of fight is going on with the Republican Guard, and is there any more fighting going on in Kuwait, or is Kuwait essentially out of the action?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: The only fight that's going on with the Republican Guard right now is just a passing tank battle. You've got fire and maneuver; you've got -- they are continuing to fight and shoot at us as our forces move forward and our forces are in the business of outflanking them, taking them from the rear, using our attack helicopters, using our advanced technology. I would tell you that one of the things that has prevailed, particularly in this battle out here is our technology. We had great weather for the air war. But right now and for the last three days, it's been raining out there, it's been dusty out there. There's black smoke and haze in the air. It's an infantryman's weather. God loves the infantrymen and that's just the kind of weather the infantrymen love to fight in, but I would also tell you that our sites have worked fantastically well in their ability to acquire through that kind of dust and haze the enemy targets.

REPORTER: Did you think that this would turn out? I realize a great deal of strategy and planning went into it, but when it took place, do you think this would turn out to be such an easy cakewalk, as it seems, and secondly, what are your impressions of Saddam Hussein as a military strategist?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: Well, as I told you all for a very, very long time, it's very, very important for a military commander never to assume away the capabilities of his enemy, and when you're facing an enemy that is over 500,000 strong, has the reputation that they've had of fighting for eight years and being combat hardened veterans, had the number of tanks and the type of equipment they had, you don't assume away anything. So we certainly did not expect it to go this way. As far as Saddam Hussein being a great military strategist, he is neither a strategist, nor is he schooled in the operational arts, nor is he a tactician, nor is he a general, nor is he as a soldier. Other than that, he's a great military man. I want you to know that.

REPORTER: General, I'm wondering how much resistance there still is in Kuwait and I'm wondering what you would say to people who would say the purpose of this war was to get the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and they're now out, what would you say to that public that is thinking that right now?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: I would say that there was a lot more purpose to this war than just get the Iraqis out of Kuwait. The purpose of this war was to enforce the resolutions in the United Nations. There are 12 different resolutions in the United Nations, not all of which have been accepted by Iraq to date, but as I understand it. But I got to tell you that the business of the military or the military commander, my job is not to go ahead and at some point say, well, that's great, they just now pulled out of Kuwait, even though they're still shooting at us, they're moving backwards, and therefore I've accomplished my mission. That's not the way you fight it and that's not the way I would ever fight it. Back in the back, please.

REPORTER: General, are you still bombing in Northern Iraq, and if you are, what's the purpose of it now?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: Yes. I'm sorry.

REPORTER: What's being achieved now?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: The military purpose is exactly the same thing we were trying to achieve before. Okay, the war is not over. You've got to remember people are still dying out there, okay, and those people that are dying are my troops and I'm going to continue to protect those troops in every way that I possibly can until the war is over. Right here.

REPORTER: In the United Nations General Assembly it was talking about peace. As a military man, do -- you look at your challenge and you're going to get some satisfaction out of having achieved it -- is there some fear on your part that there will be a cease- fire that will keep you from fulfilling the assignment that you have, your assignment as a military man, is your assignment as a military man separate from the political goals of the --

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: Do I fear a cease-fire?

REPORTER: Do you fear that you will not be able to accomplish your ends, that there will be some political pressure brought on the campaign?

GEN. SCHWARZKOPF: I think I've made it very clear to everybody that I'd just as soon that the war had never started, and I'd just as soon never have lost a single life out there. That was not our choice. We've accomplished our mission. And when the decision makers come to the decision that there should be a cease- fire, nobody will be happier than me.

MR. LEHRER: Gen. Schwarzkopf said 79 Americans had been killed in the war so far, including 28 in the ground campaign. He described the relatively low casualty rate as miraculous. He said 213 have been wounded. The Army today identified 11 of the 28 U.S. military personnel who died in Monday's Scud attack on a barracks building in Saudi Arabia. The list included the first two U.S. women to die in the war. A British military spokesman said nine British soldiers were killed yesterday when a U.S. Air Force A-10 jet mistakenly opened fire on their armored vehicle. It was the first incident of so-called "friendly fire" since the ground war began. At his briefing today, Gen. Schwarzkopf said the allies have destroyed or captured more than 3700 of Iraq's 4280 tanks, also destroyed were 1856 armored vehicles and 2140 artillery pieces. He said more than 50,000 Iraqi prisoners had been taken and that number was growing.

MR. MacNeil: The route of Iraqi forces in Kuwait brought angry protests in parts of the Arab world. In Amman, Jordan, Palestinian women marched on the American embassy chanting anti-American slogans. In Cairo, several hundred pro-Iraqi Egyptian students clashed with riot police. It was the fourth consecutive day of riots in the Egyptian capital. And in Lebanon, 6,000 Palestinians in a refugee camp staged a two hour demonstration. They waved Iraqi flags and called on Saddam Hussein to use chemical weapons against allied troops.

MR. LEHRER: The White House has announced that Pres. Bush will address the nation about the war at 9 PM Eastern Time tonight. Earlier in the day, there were mixed signals from Iraq on its offer to accept the United Nations resolutions on Kuwait. The Security Council met in closed consultations late today to try to clarify the terms of that offer. At the meeting, they called on Iraq to abide by all 12 resolutions. On Baghdad Radio, Iraq said it would accept only the resolutions requiring it to recognize Kuwait, pay war reparations, and immediately release all POWs. But at the UN, Iraq's ambassador said Iraq would accept all resolutions that remain relevant.

ABDUL AMIR AL-ANBARI, U.S. Ambassador, Iraq: Well, I informed the president of the council of that decision to accept and implement all the resolutions of the Security Council as far as Iraq is concerned. Of course some of the resolutions are no longer applicable or relevant, such as those related to foreigners or embassies and other things, and we do expect the Security Council to meet very soon. We hope that they would issue a resolution calling for a cease-fire and an end to all hostilities so that to expedite and accelerate the implementation of the resolution.

MR. LEHRER: Britain's foreign secretary, Douglas Hurd, said it wasn't clear whether the Iraqi ambassador's comments accurately reflected the Iraqi position. Hurd spoke at the White House after the meeting with Pres. Bush.

DOUGLAS HURD: I've seen two texts from Iraq this morning. One is the statement which the foreign minister, Teraq Aziz, related through the Soviet Union. And that is clearly not adequate because it does not accept fully all the UN resolutions on the subject, if it picks and chooses again. Secondly, I've seen a transcript of a broadcast by the Iraqi ambassador, a less authentic document, which purports to go further and accept everything, so we've had these two different documents, both claiming to be official Iraqi documents out of New York already today, and those have to be assessed in that assessment. That assessment is going on now. And we're talking about --

REPORTER: Do you need to hear it from Saddam Hussein, himself?

DOUGLAS HURD: Clearly any Iraq statement has to be with his authority, clearly with his authority, and it must clearly accept all the Security Council resolutions.

REPORTER: With defeat on the battlefield, is it not conceivable that Saddam Hussein will never say the right words and that allied forces will face the possibility of just remaining there and continuing to bomb?

DOUGLAS HURD: No, I don't think that's very likely. I don't think that's the way things are going to turn out. But we have to assess what the Iraqis have said and written in the course of today and respond accordingly. Everybody wants this fighting to come to an end. It has to come to an end when the Iraqis have clearly both in what they say at the UN and on the battlefield, when they have shown that they are complying with what the world community is asking.

REPORTER: Mr. Al-Anbari seems to be suggesting that any acceptance of 12 resolutions must follow the declaration of a cease-fire. Is that the wrong way around?

DOUGLAS HURD: Let's say, let's continue assessing what they have actually said, what the two documents mean, which is the superior one, and what we can actually derive from them. There's no desire, it's quite clear there's no desire here, there's no desire in London to continue fighting longer than is necessary to secure the aims for which we entered the fight for that we were going to do. We're going to make this a solid success.

REPORTER: Economic sanctions remaining, do you expect that to stay on after the fighting's gone?

DOUGLAS HURD: I would expect the sanctions to continue after the fighting, itself. Yes, I would, because that will depend on the policies of whatever government there is in Iraq, but I think clearly, clearly some of the UN aims, for example, the payment of compensation and that is not going to be achieved through a cease-fire. There are going to be further discussions, a whole number of detainees, for example, people whom the Iraqis detained, there are going to be a whole lot of them which needs to be settled after a cease-fire and during that time clearly sanctions will need to remain. That will be a matter for the Security Council to assess at the summit.

REPORTER: How do you see this actually ending on the battlefield? You said you don't expect it to turn out to be a situation in which Saddam never says the right words. How do you see this actually ending?

DOUGLAS HURD: I expect there will come a time when the military objectives of the allied forces have been achieved, but we're not at that point today.

MR. LEHRER: Later Hurd met with Sec. of State Baker at the State Department during a photo session before that meeting. Baker spoke about maintaining sanctions on Iraq after the war.

SEC. BAKER: I think the Security Council can eliminate sanctions that they voted, but you know what our position is, and that is that as long as that particular government continues in power, we will want to make certain at least with respect to arms that there's some sort of constraints upon a re-armament and a shipment of arms into that country and particularly weapons of mass destruction. FOCUS - WHEN & HOW

MR. LEHRER: Now four opinions about the question of when and how this war should end. It comes from two in Congress, Sen. Albert Gore, Democrat of Tennessee, and Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California. They join us from Capitol Hill. And from former Undersecretary of State Joseph Sisco, and Hisham Sharabi, professor of history and Arab culture at Georgetown University. Mr. Sisco, how and when should the war end in your opinion?

MR. SISCO: When the forces of Iraq surrender, lay down their arms, and begin to walk back home. I think it's important that the military defeat be very decisive. I think that the credibility of Saddam and the reduction of that credibility has to be decisive, and the way to do this both in reality as well as in perception is to press ahead militarily until these forces really stop the fighting, give up, and we turn to Iraq devoid of their equipment.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Sharabi, is that the way this war should end?

MR. SHARABI: I think the war should end right away and that a cease-fire should take place right away. The situation is at a point now where all the goals that have been set for the alliance to achieve have been achieved. What's taking place now in the view of people across the Arab world, across the Moslem world, is something close to a mindless slaughter of Iraqi troops that need not be killed.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Gore, mindless slaughter, is that what we're doingright now?

SEN. GORE: That's not the view of the Arab forces that are participating in the coalition. That's not the view of the neighbors to Iraq who are greatly concerned not just about what happens in the next twelve to twenty-four hours. They're also concerned about what happens next month and next year. One of our objectives from the very beginning has been not just to push the Iraqi troops out of Kuwait, but to remove their ability to disrupt the peace and stability of the region and we're going about that now by assuring that they cannot simply relocate their tanks and other military equipment that they still have across the Euphrates and then come storming back as soon as they have rearmed and got more equipment. That's not peace and stability, and we have to prevent that from happening now.

MR. LEHRER: Congresswoman Pelosi how do you feel? Do you feel that it's time for the United States and the coalition to declare a cease-fire?

REP. PELOSI: I think it's time for the United States to declare a victory. I think we have achieved the freeing of Kuwait that was the goal and I believe that any risk that we take, we have to use the principle of proportionality, is the gain worth the risk, the risk in American lives, the risk in Iraqi lives, especially of women and children of Iraq. I believe that the -- the idea at the beginning of this was to ensure the stability of the region. I see now those who are using that statement to say that means we must continue the war. I believe just the opposite, that is, we hope to contribute to ensuring the stability of the region. The time has come to stop the bombing. We want to use all force necessary to protect our troops and not endanger American lives or allied lives, but I don't see any reason for us, for example, to have continued bombing Baghdad last night. Our troops really did not benefit from that, but I know that the women and children of Baghdad were punished by that.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Sisco, what about the point that the Congresswoman just made and Mr. Sharabi made, forget about the geopolitical thing, people are continuing to die, when does it become in the United States' interest, no matter what the view of politics are to stop the killing?

MR. SISCO: It's a question of whether there is killing now or perhaps face this again at a later stage. I think it's important to remove Saddam permanently as a threat in the area and I think that it has to be seen as such in the area. I don't accept the view, Jim, there will be a residue of anti-Americanism as a result of the use of force, but I don't accept the view that we should hold off at this particular time. This is a case where if the dictum applies that dictators don't learn lessons but they have to be defeated, I think this is the case. And moreover, the Arabs are not fools. Not only those in the coalition but other Arabs, they know who's responsible for this situation and he has to be seen as defeated clearly and perceptively, and that's why I think we have to push this to the conclusion, because I think it will lay the basis for trying to create a new security system in the area and this residue of anti-Americanism, I think it can be reduced. I think our role quietly to try to achieve a new balance will help. I think our policy has to be one of a vehicle of change, democratization, reducing the disequilibrium between the haves and have nots, and above all, in the aftermath of this war. A dynamic initiative on the Palestinian issue will become a strategic necessity for the United States and we can do all these things to reduce the anti-Americanism.

MR. LEHRER: I want to come back to that in a moment. Mr. Sharabi, Mr. Sisco made the point, Sen. Gore also made the point that to -- in response to your comment that there are Arab soldiers on both sides of this war, and that are the Arab soldiers involved in this offensive as well, and that Mr. Sisco's point that it was an Arab leader who started all of this, Saddam Hussein. Do you still think that the United States continues, and the coalition continues, that we're going to have serious problems in the Arab world? Sort that out.

MR. SHARABI: In the first place, I was referring to the millions of Arabs and Moslems across the Moslem and Arab worlds. I'm talking about tens, hundreds of millions of people. I'm not talking about rulers of, the partners, the Arab partners of the United States in this war. The situation now after the carnage stops, after the completion of the destruction of the whole Arab country, is one that is hardly more complex and more dangerous than the one that existed when Saddam and his regime were intact. The United States and its leaders like Mr. Gore will do well by leaving aside the vindictiveness that has marked the last few days of this terrible war in which this great country has finally achieved the technological superiority which enables it to kill natives with total impunity and call the war a beautiful war. It is -- believe me -- time to stop thinking of healing wounds and not gloating about military victories. The United States will have a big, big problem ahead of us in the Arab world, in the Moslem world, in the weeks and months to come.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Gore.

SEN. GORE: This has been a tragedy for both sides of this conflict, but what is going on now is not motivated by any sense of vindictiveness on the part of the coalition. There's no desire to kill more Iraqi soldiers, indeed, all of them have been given the message repeatedly, including with the so-called "cyops" planes with leaflets and broadcasts, all they have to do is to leave their equipment in place, leave their tanks, leave their artillery pieces, and they are allowed something that no other defeated army has been allowed that I know of in history, to simply pick up and leave without anything to go back to their home country. So we're not trying to kill them or to be vindictive. Let me make a point about the opinions of Arabs and Islamic people throughout the rest of the Islamic world. Their view of this in history will depend in part on whether or not Saddam Hussein is left with the ability to create a myth about what happened, and then use that myth as part of the arsenal of illusion that has been so effectively used by demagogues like Saddam Hussein in the past. I believe we are very close to the conclusion of this matter right now and I believe it will be concluded on terms that see Saddam Hussein stripped of his ability to claim that he was victimized, that he didn't cause this tragedy. He did cause this tragedy and his people and all others in the world need to be able to understand clearly exactly what happened, including the atrocities he and the Republican Guard committed in Kuwait.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Sharabi.

MR. SHARABI: I'm afraid I cannot fully agree with most of what the Senator said. Clearly the goals as set by the United States, as set by the United Nations, were to implement the resolutions of the United Nations and get the Iraqis out of Kuwait. The goal of this whole expedition is not to invade Iraq and change the regime in Iraq, to kill the Iraqi army, as Gen. Powell put it, or to destroy the infrastructure of this large Arab country. By doing so, the United States is acting in a way that is self-defeating, politically self-defeating. What I'm saying is let's forget about the military affairs now, the military battle is over. Let's get the killing finished, stopped, and attend to the enormous political, psychological and moral damage that has happened as far as the United States is concerned in the Arab world.

MR. LEHRER: Congresswoman Pelosi, do you think there is an element of gloating and vindictiveness that's creeping into the American attitude now?

REP. PELOSI: No, I really don't. I think that I don't know any Americans on either side of this issue, whether they were for the use of force to begin with, or against it, who are gloating. No one wants to see troops -- people killed on either side, whether it be civilians or soldiers. I think that it's a time when there's some confusion. I believe that we're very close diplomatically on this and I believe that we didn't say we didn't want to use force because we didn't think we could win or that we didn't think Hussein was bad, but we thought there was a better way. I think it's never too late for diplomacy and I do think that the American people would like to see this resolved as soon as possible. As you know, we have a policy in that country against assassination and that's a moral stand and I support that, but we've been trying to get Hussein for a long time and we haven't succeeded and in the course of doing so without any intentional attempt, we have nonetheless, because war is what it is, we have had much collateral damage, that would be many civilians killed. Not only that, we have reduced Baghdad's supply of water to 5 percent of its usual supply. The other water is very contaminated. The World Health Organization is saying that cholera and other diseases will break out as the warm weather, warmer weather sets in. So I don't think the American people want that. I don't think they want to gloat and I don't think they want to be vindictive. I do think they want to be sure that in calling for an end to this war that we are not endangering American or allied troops, but I think that, as I say, that we are so close. The President's proposals were not unreasonable the other day. I haven't seen -- and I have to take what Sec. Hurd said in your most recent account -- but we haven't really seen the definitive Iraqi proposal, but what I do think is that when we look for a solution to this, that we say, the unconditional withdrawal from Kuwait relates to what the UN has said, and if it doesn't involve the Palestinians or anything else in terms of conditions, but that if there is a cease- fire and a withdrawal from Kuwait, we can work out sanctions and reparations, but we don't have to kill people any more over that.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Sisco, what do you say to -- the Congresswoman didn't say it directly but some people have suggested that the U.S. and the coalition is finding reasons to turn down the Iraqi proposal until the military solution is completely, completely wrapped up, which may be in the next 24 hours or so.

MR. SISCO: Well, Jim, one of the resolutions calls for peace and security in the area. The administration's judgment with which I am in strong agreement is that unless Saddam is reduced decisively militarily, unless he is put in the position where he cannot claim victory and to develop this perception of having stood against the --

MR. LEHRER: The same thing the Senator was referring to.

MR. SISCO: Right. That when you begin to look at the post war period, you have to consider that only this kind of a decisive defeat will help lay the groundwork for the kind of balance and stability and new security system that has to evolve in the Gulf.

MR. LEHRER: All right. We have to leave it there. Congresswoman, gentlemen, thank you very much. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: In other news today, the Senate Ethics Committee today released its findings on the so-called Keating Five Senators. In the case of Sen. Alan Cranston, the committee found substantial credible evidence of misconduct for interfering with federal regulators on behalf of Lincoln Savings & Loan Chairman Charles H. Keating. It recommended action against Cranston. The committee said Senators Donald Riegle and Dennis DeConcini gave the appearance of being improper, but it recommended no further action against them or against Senators John Glenn and John McCain, who the committee said exercised poor judgment. The Commerce Department said the nation's economy shrank at an annual rate of 2 percent in the final quarter of 1990. That was a slight improvement on the 2.1 percent rate announced previously. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major developments in the Gulf War, Pres. Bush will address the nation tonight at 9 PM, Eastern Time, a senior Defense Department official said tonight the ground war is mostly over. He said the last major battle is now completely over. He said only one Republican Guard division remains and it is in retreat. Finally tonight, the sights and sounds of liberation. ABC Pool Reporter Linda Pattillo was with the 2nd Marine Division today as they moved to the outskirts of Kuwait City.

MS. PATTILLO: Can he just tell us his reaction when he saw U.S. troops coming forward.

KUWAITI: [Speaking through Interpreter] I want to kiss 'em but I can't explain.

KUWAITI CITIZEN: [Speaking through Interpreter] Yesterday a bunch of Americans came by and asked them, are you an American, and they said, yes, American, and it's the first time in a long time I felt relieved psychologically. My family, myself, and my kids were able to sleep peacefully for the first time. The Iraqis treated us badly. They came here and they've taken about four heads of sheep and I pleaded with God so that God will not have mercy on them because they took part of my inheritance.

REPORTER: What did you get?

SOLDIER: We found some type of support element over here. Just found a couple of souvenirs, the Koran translated in English -- going to read through that and I'll find out all the differences they tell me Allah is from God and stuff. That's about all we got, right here.

KUWAITI CITIZEN: [Speaking through Interpreter] Not in my entire life have I felt a sweeter moment than this moment, the moment where my country's back, I'm back into my country with the help of you, the Americans, and ultimately with the help of God, because it is the ultimate power.

KUWAITI: [Speaking through Interpreter] Thank you very much.

KUWAITI: [Speaking through Interpreter] Whatever you wish is at your disposal.

SOLDIER: Friendship.

MR. LEHRER: We close tonight's program with the names of more American service personnel killed in action. The list was released today by the Pentagon. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for now, but we'll be back at 9 PM on many public television stations with Pres. Bush's address to the nation. I'm Robert MacNeil. For now, good night.