The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, the Bosnia mission. Kwame Holman reports on Congress. Vice President Gore speaks for the administration, and Betty Ann Bowser and Elizabeth Farnsworth explore attitudes in Columbus, Georgia. Charlayne Hunter-Gault, Tony Bennett, and biographer Will Friedwald end things with some happy birthday talk about Frank Sinatra. It all follows our summary of the news this Wednesday. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: President Clinton flew to Paris tonight for the signing of the Bosnian peace accord tomorrow. He's committed 20,000 troops to a NATO mission that would enforce the peace plan. Before he left, the President said he expected to win congressional approval for that decision. At a White House event, he was asked what he would tell Balkan leaders about divided American public opinion on the issue.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: And I will tell them that our people have always had a reluctance to send our young people in uniform overseas, that goes back throughout our entire history, and that on the whole that has been a healthy thing. We have not been a country that has sought the gains of empire. We have not been the country that has sought to tell other people how they must live their lives, but that we are fundamentally a good people, and when we understand our duty, historically we nearly always do it.

MR. LEHRER: The Senate debated the Bosnia mission all day. It is expected to pass a resolution sponsored by Republican Senators Dole and McCain that gives qualified support to the President's commitment but not to the Bosnia policy. Senators Gramm and Kennedy expressed opposing views.

SEN. PHIL GRAMM, [R] Texas: I believe that we have to take the strongest stand possible. I believe that this is a mistake. I believe the policy is not a logical policy to promote American interest. I don't want to send troops to Bosnia.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY, [D] Massachusetts: The United States cannot be the world's policeman and this deployment does not make us one, but our country was founded on respect for human rights, on a responsibility to help those in need where we can. And in this case, we can stand for those principles by entering a war and helping war-ravaged nation heal itself.

MR. LEHRER: A vote on the Dole-McCain measure is expected late tonight. Earlier in the day, the Senate rejected other versions of the resolution. One would have cut off funding for the operation. In Bosnia today, the NATO deployment was hindered by bad weather. One planeload of U.S. troops was able to land at the American base in Tuzla, but in Sarajevo, the heavy snow closed the airport and made mountain roads impassable. That temporarily delayed the arrival of NATO forces and equipment. A state of emergency was declared throughout the city, and most residents lost electricity and water. We'll have a Newsmaker interview with Vice President Gore and much more on Bosnia right after this News Summary. In other foreign news today, a Chinese court sentenced dissident Wei Jingsheng to a 14-year sentence in prison for subversive acts. Wei has already spent much of his adult life in prison as a leader of China's democracy movement. He has a serious heart condition. In Washington, the Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights condemned the action.

JOHN SHATTUCK, Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights: With this decision against Wei Jingsheng, the Chinese judicial system has suffered a serious blow to its prestige and has lost considerable standing in international public opinion. We urge the Chinese authorities to show clemency to this courageous man whose championing of democratic values has gained him international recognition.

MR. LEHRER: The House unanimously approved a resolution late last night appealing to China for Wei's release. On Capitol Hill today, the White House and the Senate Whitewater committee remained at odds. Chairman Alfonse D'Amato urged the President and his attorneys to comply with committee subpoenas for notes of a 1993 meeting. At that meeting, White House aides and three of the President's personal lawyers discussed Whitewater-related matters. Committee members argued for and against compliance today.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY, [R] Alabama: I believe it would serve the President well and this administration well if they came forth and said we're not stonewalling anything, we're not hiding anything, we're going to share whatever the committee wants in this case.

SEN. BARBARA BOXER, [D] California: If this committee decides by a majority vote that we're going to go down the path where a President gives us private rights that an ordinary citizen should have, then I assume we believe Senators and members of Congress don't have those rights either.

MR. LEHRER: The next step will be for the committee to vote to enforce the subpoenas. On the budget story today, there was disagreement over the length of a temporary spending bill that would keep the federal government running while budget talks continue. Funding for many operations runs out Friday. Speaker Gingrich wants a three-day extension. The White House and Senate Majority Leader Dole want a week. White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta criticized the three-day plan.

LEON PANETTA, White House Chief of Staff: [Oregon] I think the whole process of holding the country hostage to this process is wrong. We don't need to penalize innocent victims because of peace negotiations. Peace negotiations can move forward. If there's good faith on both sides, we can make progress, but for goodness sakes, let's not continue to threaten to shut down the federal government. That's wrong. It doesn't work. I think it hurts people. Let's get down to business that we're here for, which is to try to develop a balanced budget agreement, and stop threatening people.

MR. LEHRER: There were several special elections yesterday. Former State Assembly Speaker Willie Brown was elected mayor of San Francisco in a runoff against incumbent Frank Jordan. Republican Tom Campbell was elected to fill the Northern California House seat of retiring Democratic Congressman Norman Mineta. And in Chicago, Jesse Jackson, Jr., was elected to the House. He's a Democrat and is the son of the Reverend Jesse Jackson. Back on the West Coast, battered residents today cleaned up after yesterday's fierce Pacific storm. At least six people were killed by downed power lines and uprooted trees from Washington State to Northern California. At the storm's peak, nearly 2 million were without power. Oregon's governor declared a state of emergency and called in the National Guard to help in clean-up operations. In economic news today, retail sales rose .8 percent in November, after falling two months in a row. It's the largest increase in five months. The Commerce Department report said it was due in part to an active holiday shopping season. Evangeline Bruce died today in Washington. She suffered a heart attack. She was the widow of diplomat David Bruce, who was known in her own right as a philanthropist and supporter of youth service programs in Washington and elsewhere. She was also the author of a recent book about Napoleon and his wife, Josephine. She was 77 years old. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to the Bosnia mission as seen by Congress, by Vice President Gore, and from Columbus, Georgia, plus a birthday tribute to Frank Sinatra. FOCUS - BOSNIA MISSION

MR. LEHRER: Now, to our three-part look at the Bosnia mission tonight. Part 1, today's action in Congress, Kwame Holman reports.

SEN. BILL FRIST, [R] Tennessee: In the case of Bosnia, the Congress and the people are not even given the opportunity to approve or disapprove but simply to give our approval and commitment and comment after the fact.

MR. HOLMAN: Even with some U.S. troops already on their way to Bosnia, Congress wants its position on the mission stated on the record. Today, the Senate gave itself three options to choose from: A resolution proposed by Senators Dole and McCain reluctantly supporting the mission; a mission by Senators Hutchison and Imhofe opposing the mission but supporting the troops; and a third resolution by House Republican Joel Hefley, cutting off all funds for U.S. troops in Bosnia. The Senate took up that option first today and rejected it overwhelmingly.

SPOKESMAN: The ayes are 22. The nays are 77, and the bill fails to pass.

MR. HOLMAN: Twenty-one of the twenty-two Senators favoring a cutoff of funds were Republicans, Phil Gramm of Texas among them.

SEN. PHIL GRAMM, [R] Texas: I submit that there is no evidence to substantiate the belief that we have a vital national interest at stake, that our intervention can be decisive in promoting that interest, and I am very concerned that unless we are very fortunate, indeed, that the outcome of this intervention might simply be to add American names to the casualty list but not to end the tragedy that we all want to see ended.

MR. HOLMAN: But recalling the many votes he cast to sustain troop funding during the War in Vietnam, Majority Leader Robert Dole successfully called on his colleagues to reject the proposal to eliminate funds for the Bosnia mission.

SEN. ROBERT DOLE, Majority Leader: While I understand opposition and disagreement with the President's decision to send American ground forces to Bosnia, I believe that action to cut off funds for this deployment is wrong. It is wrong because it makes our brave young men and women bear the brunt of a decision made not by them but by the commander in chief. Cutting off funds, as I said, in all the debates I've engaged in, these are only the records of my votes between 1969 and 1973, it never seemed appropriate for me when you had young men like John McCain, a prisoner of war, that we could cut off funds in the United States Congress. And I still have that same attitude today.

MR. HOLMAN: Meanwhile, Senate Democrats remained generally supportive of the President's decision to send troops to Bosnia.

SEN. DANIEL PATRICK MOYNIHAN, [D] New York: We have a profound interest in a world with a measure of order, a measure of predictability, and capacity to enforce it to some measure at least.

SEN. BARBARA BOXER, [D] California: In the war that I well remember that got me into politics, the Vietnam War, we said give peace a chance in those days. And I think give peace a chance has not lost its meaning in this circumstance.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN, [D] Connecticut: When we speak of defining moments in history, post Cold War, this decision will stand alongside the decision in the Gulf War as turning points, as markers, as to where we would go, and the extent to which the forces of Western civilization, particularly regarding Europe, would join together to stop conflict and deter war.

MR. HOLMAN: But it appears the position of most members falls somewhere in-between reluctant support and formal opposition, the position supported by Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas.

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, [R] Texas: There are many of us who do not think this is the right mission but who are going to go full force to support our troops. In fact, we believe we are supporting our troops in the most effective way by opposing this mission because we think it is the wrong one. The mission in Vietnam was certainly controversial, but the people of this country loved and revered the people who went to Vietnam from our armed forces and fought there for our country. So I don't think there is any question whatsoever that you cannot support a mission and support the troops fully.

MR. HOLMAN: Debate on Bosnia continues this evening in both the Senate and the House, with votes expected late tonight, but reportedly, President Clinton already is very satisfied with the earlier Senate vote not to cut funds for troops sent to Bosnia, saying he can accept either of the other two Senate resolutions, neither of which is legally binding. NEWSMAKER

MR. LEHRER: Now, to a Newsmaker interview with the Vice President of the United States, Al Gore. I spoke with him earlier this evening from the Old Executive Office Building in Washington.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Vice President, welcome.

VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE: Thank you, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: So how do the Senate votes look to you right now?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, we'll know pretty soon. I'm hopeful and optimistic that the Senate will endorse the policy and the mission the troops are embarking upon and I'm encouraged.

MR. LEHRER: But they're not going to endorse the policy, are they? Isn't the plan to support the troops but not the policy, as you understand it?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, there are three different resolutions. The resolution cutting off the money for the mission just as it's about to begin lost overwhelmingly, as you would expect, and two other resolutions are being debated and will be voted upon. And one of them endorses the mission. The other one says, well, we hope nothing happens to our troops, but we think their mission is pretty dumb, and we don't support it, and I hope that will not carry, but the one that does endorse the mission expresses some reservations but basically says our country is now unified, we think this mission is, is correct, and we support our troops overwhelmingly.

MR. LEHRER: That's the Dole-McCain resolution?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: That is correct.

MR. LEHRER: But, Mr. Vice President, the country, as a matter of fact, is not unified behind this mission, is it?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, the country was not unified in advance of the country's mission in the Persian Gulf, and we had a very vigorous debate, passionate expressions of disagreement, but then we decided as a nation by a relatively close vote to endorse that mission, and then instantly, the debate was over, and the country was unified in supporting the decision that our country made. And that's when we are at our best. When we're unified, it measurably increases the margin of safety for our troops and the chance for success in the mission.

MR. LEHRER: Why--what is your analysis of why the public, as well as the Congress, has not rallied to the President's side on this?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Oh, I, I think it's traditional for Americans to have a great deal of apprehension about any deployment of our troops in a foreign country. Adolf Hitler had already invaded Poland and was on the rampage across Europe when the draft was renewed by a margin of only one vote in the House of Representatives. There's nothing new about these kinds of apprehensions, but we Americans have more than a single opinion. The country overwhelmingly has been heartsick about the ethnic cleansing, the mass rape and mass murders there, and excited about the breakthrough in Dayton, when Americans of all faiths formed a prayer circle around the negotiating site, and through the very hard work of the President's delegates there, the agreement was finally hammered out, and the war was brought to an end. As the debate, quite naturally, focuses on the remaining risks associated with this peacekeeping mission, naturally there are going to be apprehensions, but the risks of not undertaking this mission are catastrophic, the destruction of NATO, a sharp loss of U.S. influence, and capacity to lead in the world, renewed fighting and renewed risks that the war will spread, involving Greece and Turkey, and others in a wider regional conflict that would threaten the stability of Europe and the moral risks of renewed ethnic cleansing, more mass rapes, more Srebrenicas. What would it do to us as a people having the opportunity to bring this to an end to walk away from it and see the resumption of all these horrific events and then wring our hands and say this is terrible, we feel badly about it, and we'll try to express our disappointment, but we won't really do anything about it. We, we have the chance now not in a war but in a peace to bring that to an end and to eliminate those risks and the risks of undertaking the mission again have been minimized.

MR. LEHRER: Now, you have said this many times. The President has said this many times; he said it in an Oval Office address to the American people. It's been repeated time and time again over the last several weeks, and yet, the polls still show the American people do not agree with the version that you just said, and the Congress has said the same thing. So what's missing here? Why has the message not been agreed to and not been gotten over?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, again, it is not at all unusual in our history to see apprehensions of that kind expressed. Indeed, before the mission in the Persian Gulf, opinion was sharply divided in the country. There was very strong opposition to it. I remember as one of the Democrats who supported that mission that it was a very unpopular thing to do. But once the mission began and a more realistic picture emerged, then public opinion solidified in favor of it. You know what's interesting, Jim, the congressional delegations that have gone to visit the actual scene there in Bosnia have come back with virtually every single member coming back persuaded that, yes, this is the right thing to do, very few exceptions to that rule. And I think our country as a whole will have a similar experience in getting immersed in the details of exactly what is involved and what is not involved, seeing that, in fact, it is a peace and not a war, seeing the reaction of the people in all of the groups represented there expressing their gratitude to the United States of America for providing the leadership in an international coalition of 30 nations, bringing peace to this part of the world that has suffered so much.

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Brown, Republican of Colorado, is one member of Congress who went to Sarajevo, and he came back and said on the floor of the Senate yesterday that it was goofy, the whole mission was goofy to put U.S. troops between two warring factions, two warring sides that have hated each other and have essentially been at war for hundreds of years.

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: He's the exception, rather than the rule. I think those who have gone have overwhelmingly come back convinced that this is the right thing to do, Democrats and Republicans.

MR. LEHRER: Does this debate, this lack of enthusiastic public and congressional support, mean that the mission, itself, doesn't- -there's not going to be any slack given if something goes wrong, if there's a little problem here, or a little problem there, there's going to be--in other words, is it going to affect its possible effectiveness?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Is what going to affect it?

MR. LEHRER: The lack of enthusiastic public and congressional support.

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, I think that we have an excellent chance to see something approximating the result in the Persian Gulf crisis; when the debate featured the divisions, aired the differences, but then yielded when the decision was made to a decision by the country to unify and say, look, whatever reservations some of us may have had about this, our troops are involved in this now, our nation is involved in it, and we're going to make sure that this is successful. National unity in a situation like this, after a full democratic debate where the differences are aired, national unity is an extremely important strategic asset. It helps our troops, it improves their safety, it improves the chances for success in this important mission.

MR. LEHRER: How should the doubters assess success of this mission?

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Well, the military mission is very sharply defined and clearly focused and will be almost completely finished within ninety to a hundred and twenty days, certainly within six months. The remaining mission after those maps are completed, marking the boundaries, separating the forces, establishing freedom to move along the highways, after those missions are completed, then the task is to continue providing a level of confidence on the part of all the parties that the peace is going to endure, diminishing their fear that the other side may be up to something they're not aware of, and as a result, they need to start behaving aggressively and to continue that level of confidence that they can believe in this peace for approximately a year, during which time a balance of power will be established, eliminating the weakness in the Bosnian federation that invited the aggression to begin with. It was a relative weakness. Now it will be a relative balance. Police forces will be organized and deployed in the separate entities. Elections will be held and civic authority established. The economic benefits will begin to flow as they reach out for reconstruction and rebuilding their country as the neighbors, Croatia and Serbia, strive to enter into a normal relationship with the civilized world and a web of economic contacts with the European common market and the rest of the world, escape the threat that sanctions will be reimposed. All of these things will take place during a period of time when the people of Bosnia will have twelve months plus the two months of the cease- fire already during which they will feel the benefits of peace. People on all sides tell all of the people who study their opinions that overwhelmingly all of them are sick of this war. They want this peace that they have finally established with our help. And having experienced it for a year and having then the emergence of a stable configuration with the forces separated and these new entities established, I think the chances are overwhelming that at the end of the military mission you're going to see this peace endure.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Mr. Vice President, thank you very much.

VICE PRESIDENT GORE: Thank you, Jim. FOCUS - HOME FRONT VIEWS

MR. LEHRER: Now, some home front views of the Bosnia mission. For the next two nights, Elizabeth Farnsworth will be reporting from Columbus, Georgia, a town with strong ties to the U.S. Army. Tonight, she's at the Chattahoochee Valley Veterans' Council.

MS. FARNSWORTH: The 586th combat engineer company pulled out of nearby Fort Benning today for Bosnia. Tomorrow we will speak to those soldiers' families. Tonight, some Columbus residents tell us what they think of this controversial mission, but first this background report from Betty Ann Bowser.

MS. BOWSER: Christmas is always a time for joy at the Edgewood Baptist Church in Columbus, Georgia, but this year it's also a time for prayerful concern.

PASTOR DAVID HOWELL, Edgewood Baptist Church: Right now, here all among our own fellowship and among those who live closeby are those who are preparing to make their way to Bosnia. We do pray for those whose lives will be so disrupted by right here at Christmas season loved ones having to make their journey overseas to an uncertain situation.

MS. BOWSER: Churches in Columbus are used to praying for troops being sent off to foreign shores. For the past 75 years, this one sleepy little mill town has been defined by its close proximity to Fort Benning, one of the largest infantry centers in the world. Billy Winn was born and raised in Columbus. As editorial page editor for the local newspaper, he's watched the military presence here grow and make his hometown flourish.

BILLY WINN, Newspaper Editor: The "Post" came here in 1918, and it has had a tremendous influence on the town's growth and development. Otherwise, I think Columbus would have been for most of its existence a very quiet textile mill town.

MS. BOWSER: Today, the area is home to the U.S. Army's First Infantry. It was a major staging area for soldiers going to Vietnam in the 1960s. It's also been home to some of the most famous military figures in history. Gen. George Patton, Gen. Dwight David Eisenhower, and recently retired chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Colin Powell, were all posted here. The area has also experienced tragedy. Young Patrick McKenna, a native of Columbus, was a casualty of the Gulf War, a victim of friendly fire from his own comrades when they accidentally shot is helicopter down. And in 1993, the community mourned the loss of six U.S. Army rangers who died in Somalia. But the military history of the area began before Fort Benning. The last land battle of the Civil War was fought in Columbus.

BILLY WINN: This is an old frontier town. It's an old Indian frontier town, and it has a sort of bellicose attitude ever since it was founded. This is also one of the major towns involved in the Civil War. This was the second leading manufacturing center of the Confederacy South of Richmond. So we have a long history here of involvement with the military and support for the military.

MS. BOWSER: The economic benefits Columbus enjoyed because of the military in the Civil War continue today. Burnie Quick compares the impact of the base to that of the university in a small town. Quick's a former Fort Benning official who's now retired and working to develop the area's economy.

BURNIE QUICK, Developer: At Fort Benning, they like to say Fort Benning is the largest university in the state of Georgia, because some 60,000 student soldiers pass through their gates every year, ten thousand students on any given day. It is estimated that Fort Benning puts about $60 million a month into the local economy.

MS. BOWSER: It comes from soldiers who come to town for haircuts and go to a local mall to buy Christmas presents. The relationship between Columbus and its military neighbors has also stimulated economic growth. Down by the waterfront, along the Chattahoochee River, the city and the army are pouring millions of dollars into Riverwalk, a joint project to refurbish an area once dominated by old textile mills.

JEAN PUCKETT: Remember when we got these in Germany?

RALPH PUCKETT: I do remember that.

MS. BOWSER: But the relationships that dominate this military community more than any other are human relationships. About one half of the town has a personal tie to the military. Like so many military wives, Jean Puckett met her husband at Fort Benning. He had just come home from Korea as a wounded veteran.

JEAN PUCKETT: This is a photograph of my husband that was taken in 1950 and appeared in the Columbus paper. I saw this photograph before I met him, and I thought, this is without a doubt one of the most handsome young men I've ever seen.

MS. BOWSER: They were married 43 years ago. It's those kind of stories you hear all over this town of how the military brought people together and how Columbus has come to be known as the mother-in-law of the infantry. As the first troops begin their deployment to Bosnia, the mayor has called for a city-wide prayer service on Monday. Once again, the residents of Columbus are supporting their troops.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Will the initiative in Bosnia generate the same kind of support in Columbus that we've seen for other U.S. military efforts, or is Bosnia different? Joining me tonight are two people who were in Betty Ann Bowser's report, retired colonel Ralph Puckett and editor Billy Winn. Also with us are stockbroker and local Republican Party chairman Dennis Hendrix, city councilwoman Mimi Woodson, Bob Poydasheff, a retired colonel and now a lawyer and professor, and Valerie Cloud, a senior at Columbus College. Thank you all for being with us. Is Bosnia different, Dennis Hendrix?

DENNIS HENDRIX, Stockbroker: Well, I don't think it'll be different as far as how we in Columbus support our friends and neighbors who are soldiers over there, but I think it could be different as far as how we as citizens feel about what's going on there and whether it can succeed.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Why? What's different about it?

DENNIS HENDRIX: Well, we've got a country made up of three extremely diverse ethnic groups. Two of those ethnic groups don't want to be a part of this country; they'd rather be Serbians or Croatians. And we're trying to institutionalize or force on them something that they're not comfortable with themselves.

MS. FARNSWORTH: What do you think about that?

COL. BOB POYDASHEFF, U.S. Army [Retired]: Well, I think that, one, we're not trying to impose that. I think with the Dayton accords and the fact that they, themselves, in Dayton decided how they're going to restructure their country and provide Bosnia- Herzegovina some living room, so the situation is a lot different. I just hope that it doesn't get into the Somalia type situation where President Bush started off with a humanitarian purpose and then it degenerated into police trying to chase a criminal. Now, if we're there merely to maintain what has been stated in the peace treaty and see to it that that is enforced and see to it that they get on their feet, I think that's going to auger well for international life.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Billy Winn, how much do people in, in Columbus know about Bosnia? This is such a complex issue. Does the paper cover it a lot?

BILLY WINN, Newspaper Editor: Yes, we've had quite a few stories on Bosnia, and we've done some in-depth reporting on it. Still, it's a very complex issue, and it's a very complex country, with a long, complex, and violent history. And so it's--it, I would say people in Columbus know as much about it as most people in the United States do, but they're still filled with many questions, and deep concern about our involvement there.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Is the concern different from say the, the U.S. mission to Somalia, or what happened in the Persian Gulf? What is- -what do you think makes the concern so great in this case?

BILLY WINN: Well, it's certainly different from our involvement in the Persian Gulf. This situation is so complex, itself, on the ground in Bosnia with different groups of people who seem to be at odds with each other, and I think the concern here is that, is that as a peacekeeping mission we will ultimately end up being what is, in fact, a police force on the ground. And I think we had a very bad experience with that, as Bob said, in Somalia.

COL. BOB POYDASHEFF: I'm sorry.

BILLY WINN: Go ahead.

COL. BOB POYDASHEFF: No. One thing that I do want to say is that you get into the realm of whether it's in our national interest and now we're talking about vital national interest. I think the people in Columbus, certainly in this area, identify with oil and with what drives our industrial organizations here. I don't that the people in Columbus and, indeed, in the United States see our mission there as vital to our national security. On the other hand, it's important. Certainly, we are a leader in the world, wouldn't you agree?

BILLY WINN: Yes.

COL. BOB POYDASHEFF: And if NATO is going to have some viability, I think now that the die have been cast, we have to set the role, the tone for that.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Ralph Puckett, what do you think? Is Bosnia really different because of the nature of the mission there?

COL. RALPH PUCKETT, U.S. Army [Retired]: I think it's different. The President explained very well, I thought, recently why we were going into Bosnia. He didn't convince me that it was a wise choice. But I thought his views were very clear, and as Bob has said, if we expect to be a leader, we've got to lead. We are the greatest nation on Earth. We are the superpower. We are the leader in NATO. Without us, NATO will not succeed. And I think now that he has committed the United States to send troops, that it is up to us to get in there and do the job.

MS. FARNSWORTH: But do you wish he hadn't committed the troops?

COL. RALPH PUCKETT: I am not convinced that it is in our best interest to have committed those troops.

MS. FARNSWORTH: What do you think, Valerie Cloud? And tell me what the viewpoint is at the campus. Are people talking about Bosnia? Is it of interest among students?

VALERIE CLOUD, College Student: It's of interest because being a military town, we have a lot of prior service students on the campus, and we have a lot of spouses of military men on the campus. And most of us function under the understanding that what's going on in Bosnia with just the treatment of the Muslims and the policy of ethnic cleansing, we view that as genocide. And international law says that any nation that knows that genocide is occurring must step in to stop it. And we know it's occurring, and we feel that it is the responsibility as a signatory to the international law treaties that we must step in to stop it, and it would be very sad if a situation with concentration camps and the whole Hitler thing happened again, and I don't think very many people on the campus or very many people in the United States would want that on their conscience, that they had an opportunity to step in and stop it and didn't.

MS. FARNSWORTH: So you're--you're looking at the moral side of this--

VALERIE CLOUD: Yes.

MS. FARNSWORTH: --as much as the great power of politics part of it.

VALERIE CLOUD: Yes.

MS. FARNSWORTH: And you think the obligation is primarily moral at this point?

VALERIE CLOUD: Yes. And like Mr. Poydasheff said, that if, if we're going to be the great leader, then we have got to--leadership is not only being the great power, it's also offering some kind of moral stance. You don't respect a leader if he has no morals and if we're going to be the great power and be the leader of the free world, then we must assume that position.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Mimi Woodson, what are you hearing from your constituents?

MINI WOODSON, City Councilwoman: Well, they will support the mission because they support their spouses and soldiers. They are not too content with what's going on. They do not understand everything that's going on. They have a lot of questions. And many of the questions that have been brought to my attention is that, and Mr. Poydasheff and I were speaking of it very brief. They, they feel that if our government is going to do so many budget cuts and it's going to affect welfare, education, transportation, health care, things like this, and we have so many problems with our budget right now, why are we spending billions of dollars going to a war conflict? The ordinary person does not understand that. They're having a difficult time. They feel by the spouses that I have met it's Christmas, you know. What's going to happen? We're saying we're on a peace mission. But what's going to happen when my husband knocks on a door? How about if someone shoots him? You know, these are the kind of questions that I'm gettin' from people.

MS. FARNSWORTH: What about that, Bob Poydasheff? I talked to some of the troops that were leaving last night at the ceremony, the departure ceremony, and off the record, they were expressing some of the same concerns about problems here at home. What do you think about that? How do you answer that?

COL. BOB POYDASHEFF: Our leadership role in the international community is one; the problem with the budget, and education and welfare is another issue.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Dennis Hendrix, how do you think Congress has handled this? Do you think Congress, it looks like--the Senate is debating as we speak--but it looks like a resolution, a very lukewarm resolution, will be passed that either implicitly or explicitly is critical of the decision but supportive of the troops. Do you think this is the way to handle it?

DENNIS HENDRIX: I personally think the way to handle it was a year ago or longer than that ago to life the embargo and let the Muslims be armed. I think equality of forces or some balance in strength, in military strength, would have solved the problem.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Well, let me interrupt you. Do you think Congress should block the funds so that the forces couldn't go? Should they try to block the deployment?

DENNIS HENDRIX: You know, it would be first in a hundred some odd times, it hasn't been done, I can't imagine it being done. You know, the President is commander-in-chief. He has the right to send soldiers where he, where he thinks necessary. I just think it's-- I think it's a quagmire we're walking into, and I've been there for a year, two years, whatever. It's not going to solve the problem, and when we leave, it'll still be there, and at what cost, not just financially but at what cost in American lives?

COL. RALPH PUCKETT: I'd like to comment on your comment relative to your conversation with some of the soldiers. I think there's something that--

MS. FARNSWORTH: You mean the point about there being so many problems here at home to deal with?

COL. RALPH PUCKETT: Well, I'm just talking about their, their concern about us being committed, or they being committed to Yugoslavia, to Bosnia. I think there's something that everybody needs to remember, and that is that the President is the commander- in-chief; he's the boss.

VALERIE CLOUD: That's right.

COL. RALPH PUCKETT: And those soldiers out there are the greatest young people I've seen in a long time, and we can be proud of them and what they do. Regardless of how they feel, they will get the job done, and they'll do it well, and we'll be proud of them.

DENNIS HENDRIX: If they know what the job is. I mean, what is the job, you know, to stand between three different armies of three different folks that don't really get along or want to get along, and make 'em become a country when they don't want to become a country? I mean, the, the Croatians that live in Bosnia now already read Croat newspapers, use Croat money. They're not Bosnians, they don't want to be Bosnians.

COL. BOB POYDASHEFF: Well, the fact is that they do in the sense that the peace treaty, although there has been some input from the United States and undoubtedly some great pressures, but I believe that the land has already been decided, and that the treaty would not have occurred had not the Serbs and the Croatians and the Bosnia-Herzegovinans were not satisfied with what has happened. They understand that we are already at a status quo and that they don't want any more fighting, so I don't think it's, it's the quagmire that, that other people are saying it is. And further, we have to understand that this is a NATO operation. It's not just the United States.

MS. FARNSWORTH: This is a whole new role, though, for the military. I want to ask several of you about this, starting with you, Billy Winn. It looks like in the post Cold War world, soldiers are going to get involved in messy situations more and more, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia. Is that the proper role for the U.S. military?

BILLY WINN: Well, it's a very difficult role to ask a soldier to effect a military solution to what is essentially a political problem. But we've been through this before, and I think the army is gaining experience with this as we go along. What's troubling tome about it is not whether we should go or not. I think we're morally obligated to go, clearly morally obligated. If we can go in the Persian Gulf to save our interest in oil, we can certainly go into Bosnia to try to save human lives. But the peace, itself, is so questionable, the quality of the peace, the accords that were worked out in Dayton to me is the real issue. Is that peace--are those accords enforceable? Is it practical? Do the people on the ground, do the Croats, do the Serbs, do the Muslims really want that peace to work? Because I think that's an essential ingredient of this whole process, and there's very little we can do to implement that. So that's my concern, not whether we should go or not.

MS. FARNSWORTH: And just one second on this, on the post Cold War, what do you think about this new role for the U.S. military? Do you think the U.S. military just should not be involved in these messy situations?

DENNIS HENDRIX: I don't think our soldiers are policemen, and they can't police the whole world, and you know, Bosnia is just one place where genocide or where, you know, atrocities are taking place. I mean, there's all kinds of atrocities in sub-Sahara Africa and other parts of the world. You know, we can't go to all of them. You know, why this one was chosen, I don't know, but I don't think our soldiers are policemen. I don't think we should ask them to police the whole world.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Ms. Woodson, you wanted to say something?

MINI WOODSON: Yes. I just want to piggyback on what Billy was saying. That's how--that's what the talk is in the community, exactly what Billy's saying, and then they reflect back to our own communities. We have our own wars going on. We have our own problems, and yet our government--

MS. FARNSWORTH: Here in Columbus?

MINI WOODSON: In our nation totally, we've got crime, we have drugs. You know, we have a lot of issues, and just like Billy says, we're going in to fight to teach other people how to have peace, and we're not even sure if they really want us there, but yet, we have our own problems at home.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Valerie Cloud, what about that point?

VALERIE CLOUD: Just as Mr. Poydasheff said earlier, there are two separate arenas that true enough we should be taking care of our problems at home, but you can't turn your back to what's going on in the world. You can't continue to let Bosnias and Rwandas continue, and I think that it isn't necessarily a NATO function or a United States function. I think that in my opinion that's the purpose of the United Nations, and what we're seeing--

MS. FARNSWORTH: You wish this had been done successfully by the United Nations--

VALERIE CLOUD: Right.

MS. FARNSWORTH: --instead of the failure that occurred.

VALERIE CLOUD: But the United Nations is in no position at the moment to intervene. And I think what needs to happen is that the United Nations has to be rebuilt. I see no reason why they can't maintain a mission in Bosnia if they are brought up to speed.

MS. FARNSWORTH: Okay. Well, thank you all very much for being with us. FINALLY - HAPPY BIRTHDAY

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight, happy birthday, Frank Sinatra. Charlayne Hunter-Gault does the honors.

FRANK SINATRA: [singing] Start spreadin' the news. I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of it, New York, New York.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: In New York last night, the Empire State Building was lit up in blue lights in honor of "Old Blue Eyes." It seems like the entire world is celebrating Frank Sinatra's 80th birthday. There's a new 450-song collection of CD's, and a handful of new books, including the coffee table version by his daughter, Nancy, chock full of family photos. Sinatra was the only son of Sicilian immigrants, born in Hoboken, New Jersey, in 1915. As a teenager he sang in a local band, but soon struck out on his own as a soloist.

FRANK SINATRA: [singing] I walk along. They'll ask me why, and I'll tell them I'd rather.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: It was in the 40's that Sinatra became famous. A teen idol, he earned the nickname "The Voice." His songs were intimate, lyrical, and romantic.

FRANK SINATRA: [singing] I hear music when I look at you.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: A series of stormy marriages and messy divorces led to dark and melancholy songs.

FRANK SINATRA: [singing] In the wee small hours of the morning- -

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Sinatra also danced with Gene Kelley and acted with a host of Hollywood greats. He appeared in some 63 films and won an Oscar in 1953 for his performance in "From Here to Eternity."

FRANK SINATRA: [in film] Hey, buddy. Sam. Hey, come on out fellahs, the tour ain't Gimbals basement. Stand back there now. Here we go. It's seven for that, a five deuce. Hey, seven. [rolling dice] Snake eyes. That's the story of my life.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But whatever else he did, it was singing and Sinatra that were synonymous.

FRANK SINATRA: [singing] Fly me to the moon. Let me play among the stars.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Even for the Apollo 11 astronauts, who put Sinatra on the top of their list for their trip to the moon. In the 1970's, Sinatra's image as a bad boy grew, as did his critics, but the singer, who rarely gave interviews, dismissed his critics, saying, "Whatever has been said about me personally is unimportant. When I sing, I believe I'm honest."

FRANK SINATRA: [singing] The record shows I took the blows, and did it my way.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: We're joined from New York now by two Sinatra experts. One writes; the other sings. Will Friedwald is author of the recent biography Sinatra, the Song is You. Tony Bennett has been performing and recording popular music for more than 40 years. And, Tony Bennett, starting with you, I read somewhere that you said you once got your education playing hooky and listening to Sinatra at the Paramount. What lessons were you learning, and how did that affect your career?

TONY BENNETT: Well, you know, one time I was--had a summer replacement. I was the Michael Jackson of my day. I had so many hit records at that time, and what happened is I became very nervous because they cut the budget for the summer replacements, and when I got there, there was an empty stage, and I had to fill it up for the summer--I got very nervous, and I just took a deep breath and went back stage at the Paramount--Mr. Sinatra was there with Tommy Dorsey, and, and I was warned, they said, look out, he's a pretty tough guy. I said, "Well, then I think I'm going to get along with him because I love the way he sings." And he told me--the lesson that he gave me--he said, "Never compromise." He said, "Only sing--don't do cheap songs, don't do silly songs, just do, just do wonderful songs that are well-written." And I took his advice, and it's what it did--it was so constructive because it created a longevity in my career. I've been able to stay on top for 40 years now because of good music.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Yes, indeed. You said you loved the way he sings.

TONY BENNETT: And I love--he's got a golden voice.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What is it about his voice, what is it that you loved about the way he sang?

TONY BENNETT: Well, I think, I think in all of the arts there are just certain people that have a gift, you know. I think it's a certain spirituality, it's a God-given gift that just certain individuals have, and he's just blessed with this magnificent ear and taste and knowing--a magnificent sense of phrasing. What he created, he--you know, Bing Crosby invented the art of intimate singing, where Sinatra almost made his, his interpretations biographical. They, they--it's--as he's singing, you could sense that this is what he's lived at the moment in his brain, that he's explaining his life story to you and how he feels about life, and he created psychological singing through an intimate microphone.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Bill Friedwald, what, what did you get from the musicians that you talked to about Sinatra and what made him, what made it his way?

WILL FRIEDWALD, Author: Well, to use that phrase, Sinatra is really the first singer, and of course, Tony is another, but Sinatra was really the first singer to really take total control of his musical destiny. He comes from a period--and Tony can attest to this--when a singer would essentially show up a recording session and be handed a song and say, this is what you're going to sing and here's how you're going to sing it, and Sinatra says, no, that's not the way we do it. Sinatra would go to a session and tell his producers what he wanted, and like you say, they would do it his way. And of course, you know, Sinatra would pick his own songs. And that may not sound like much, but as Tony can attest, in those days, you know, a singer would never have any say in what they would record. It was very rare. And Sinatra not only would pick his own songs, but he would also pick his musicians, and, again, that was just, you know, unheard of. He would listen, and he would pick his arrangements, and he would even work out the arrangement with the arranger beforehand. Most of the classic things with Nelson Riddle are, in effect, sketched out by Sinatra beforehand. He would say that I want four bars of strings here, a tenor solo here or flutes, and Riddle would essentially color in his outlines.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: I heard he could also tell musicians when he wanted a B flat instead of a B minor and yet, he never studied music,is that right?

WILL FRIEDWALD: Well, from what I gather from the musicians, Sinatra, you know, he's not like a sight singer, like a jingle singer who can just look at a note on a page and reproduce a sound, but he can follow a score, and he can tell musicians exactly what they want in very technical and precise terms, particularly and it's not just a matter of knowing what notes are there, but knowing at what volume level to come in, and the same thing goes with the technology of the studio. I mean, he really fathoms all the technological possibilities.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Tony, but--excuse me, I'm sorry, go ahead.

WILL FRIEDWALD: There's even--there's a tape I have of him in the 1940's, when he was still very young, where he's telling the trumpeters to use cut mutes instead of plunger mutes. I mean, he's that specific in what he wants.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Tony Bennett, you talked about how Sinatra influenced you and your style. Werethere any singers that influenced him? I mean, did he study with anybody particularly?

TONY BENNETT: There was a fellow by the name of Quinlan that, that taught all of the good singers like Vic Damone and Perry Como and Sinatra, and Dick Hanes, and he was quite famous. But there-- there's also--he was very influenced by Bing Crosby, we all were at that time.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: In what way?

TONY BENNETT: Well, Bing was--just imagine something five times stronger than the popularity of Elvis Presley and the Beatles put together. Bing Crosby dominated all of the airwaves. He was the only guy who had hour shows on radio stations, where other artists would just have one record played. He had hour shows, and he had two--

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And could you see the influence of Crosby and Sinatra? I mean, where did you see that?

TONY BENNETT: Only in the very, very early recordings. He did some records with Skits Henderson, and you could actually here him imitating just the way Harry Conac imitates Sinatra right now. You could hear, you could hear Frank Sinatra imitating Bing, but it was very quick thing. Right away, he just realized, hey, wait a minute, I have to be myself, because if you sound like someone else, you see, you see, in other words, if you steal from one, it's perjury, if you steal from everybody, it's research, and that's the difference. [laughing]

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Bill Friedwald, I read also that Sinatra knew he had the voice to be famous, to be a star. Is that accurate?

WILL FRIEDWALD: Well, that's sort of another area where Crosby rubbed off on him, because, you know, essentially the story goes when Sinatra was 17, he went to a Bing Crosby movie and decided he wanted to do that, to be the next all-media superstar like that, and a gentleman told me that--a friend of mine, Mr. Gary Stevens, who knew Sinatra back to the 30's--says that once around 1942, Sinatra sat down with him and told him his whole career. He had everything planned out, what he wanted to do, including going on to Hollywood and making movies, and he even said in 1942, you know, I want to win an Academy Award. I mean, he just had that kind of determination and like I say, from the beginning, he was seeking to plan out the whole career.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How do you think he'll be remembered, as a musician, or as a cultural icon, or what?

WILL FRIEDWALD: Well, I don't necessarily think there's a discrepancy between the two. I mean, by being our single greatest representative of the whole world of popular culture, you know, it's beyond being a singer. I mean, he's just, you know, the supreme personality. He's the supreme artist, and he's the figure that, you know, all of popular culture revolves around.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Tony Bennett, how do you think he'll be remembered?

TONY BENNETT: Well, you know, I think there's a great story about Caruso. Years ago, his wife, 10 years after he was--died, she often pondered on why, why was my husband so great, and then she came up with the answer, and I compare this to Sinatra as--in popular music--she said, Caruso sang for many kings all over the world but there was only one Caruso. And that's the same thing with Sinatra. I mean, he's done--he's sang with royalties all over the world, all kinds of royalty, but there's only one Sinatra.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, thank you, thank you very much for joining us, both of you.

TONY BENNETT: Terrific.

WILL FRIEDWALD: Thank you! RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Wednesday had to do with Bosnia. President Clinton left for France tonight for the signing of the Bosnian peace accords tomorrow. The Senate was expected to vote qualified support tonight to sending- -to the sending of U.S. troops, and in Bosnia, the NATO deployment was hindered by winter weather that closed some airports and mountain roads. We'll see you tomorrow night with more coverage of the Bosnia mission and debate. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.