The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in New York.

MR. MUDD: And I'm Roger Mudd in Washington. After the News Summary, we have an update on the Mississippi flood, a Newsmaker interview with the Clinton administration's director of its drug policy, excerpts from the Supreme Court confirmation hearings of Judge Ginsburg, and a report on the Operation Rescue anti-abortion campaign. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MUDD: Any hope that the great flood of '93 had done its worst died overnight when the Mississippi River crested for a second time at St. Louis. The waters reached a new record, 47.1 feet. Downtown St. Louis is protected by a 51 foot high levee, but in South St. Louis, the surge was too much. A mile long levee broke, swamping homes in a six block area. Weekend rains were predicted for the region, raising fears of further flooding. That forecast came as the river's crest moved below St. Louis, affecting towns along the 100 mile stretch north of where the river becomes too wide and too deep to flood. We'll have more on the flooding right after the News Summary. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Sec. of Defense Aspin returned to Capitol Hill today to defend President Clinton's policy on homosexuals in the military. The President announced the "Don't Tell, Don't Ask, Don't Pursue" policy Monday. The Secretary told a House hearing the new policy was more enforceable and more likely to be upheld in court than the current ban. Top Pentagon lawyer Jamie Gorlich appeared before the Senate Armed Services Committee to clarify how the policy would work. She told the committee commanders would be given guidance on the kind of statements that could trigger an investigation.

JAMIE GORLICH: I don't think we can anticipate every situation. We are going to have some guidance and some hypotheticals to give commanders an idea of what it is that the working group and the secretary and the chiefs had in mind, but we cannot anticipate every situation, and the chiefs and the secretary are determined to leave this, this type of decision where it belongs, which is with the commander.

MR. LEHRER: In an investigation the burden would be on the service member to prove he or she was not engaging in homosexual conduct. The President's policy is scheduled to take effect October 1st. Supreme Court Nominee Ruth Bader Ginsburg said today she strongly supports abortion rights and believes in a constitutional right to privacy. She made the statements in response to questions from Senators during a second day of her confirmation hearings in Washington. Ginsburg in the past questioned whether the 1972 Roe V. Wade decision legalizing abortion had unnecessarily polarized the country on the issue. We'll have more on today's hearing later in the program.

MR. MUDD: Deputy White House Counsel Vincent Foster, a life long friend of President Clinton, died last night in an apparent suicide. U.S. Park police discovered the body in Virginia park along the Potomac River above Washington. They said Foster appeared to have died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. He was 48. Foster and the President had been friends since kindergarten in Arkansas. He had worked with First Lady Hillary Clinton in a Little Rock law firm before coming to Washington. Mr. Clinton spoke to reporters in the White House Rose Garden today. He said Foster was not despondent over any negative publicity about his role in the White House Travel Office Affair. Reporters asked if the President had any other explanation.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: You know, we, his closest friends sat around discussing it last night at length. None of us do. For more years than most of us would like to admit in times of difficulty he ws normally the Rock of Gibraltar while other people were having trouble. No one could ever remember the reverse being the case, so I don't know that we'll ever know, but for me, it's just important that that not be the only measure of his life. He did too much good as a, as a father, as a husband, as a friend, as a lawyer, as a citizen, and we'll just have to live with something else we can't understand I think.

MR. MUDD: Foster is survived by his wife and three children. The President cancelled his other public appearances today but said he would resume his normal schedule tomorrow. He said he would fly to Arkansas for the funeral on Friday.

MR. LEHRER: The Environmental Protection Agency issued new guidelines on smoking today. EPA Administrator Carol Browner said parents with children should not smoke in their homes and smokers in public places should be restricted to well ventilated areas away from non-smokers. The EPA has no legal power to enforce today's guidelines. They are a follow-up to an EPA study released in January which claimed second hand smoke caused cancer and killed 3,000 non-smokers each year. Republican Congressman Thomas Blyley of Richmond, Virginia, accused the EPA of deliberately abusing and manipulating the scientific data. The tobacco industry sued the EPA last month over its finding. Today the EPA moved to dismiss that suit.

MR. MUDD: Sec. of State Warren Christopher today ruled out any greater U.S. involvement in Bosnia. Christopher said at a news conference in Washington that it was in the national interest for the U.S. to do more than it was doing in Bosnia. In Bosnia, the country's Muslim president today rejected an invitation to go to the peace talks in Geneva. He said he would not take part in negotiations while rival forces were blocking humanitarian aid shipments. The statement came as Serb forces continued their assault on a strategic mountain overlooking the Bosnian capital. Paul Davies of Independent Television News reports from Sarajevo.

PAUL DAVIES, ITN: Mt. Igman is the latest battle field in this struggle for Sarajevo. It's five days now since the Bosnian Serb army launched its offensive. Each day has brought more death and destruction, but the Serbian forces have made substantial gains. If these soldiers take the mountain, the Muslim president of Bosnia believes they will attempt to march on into the heart of Sarajevo six miles away. The city, itself, continues to come under fire from Serbian guns. Many of the latest victims had been collecting firewood when shells exploded, killing three and badly wounded seven people. The continuing bloodshed is being monitored by American and British fighter planes patrolling the skies over the city. The Bosnian vice president today condemned the West for failing to intervene.

EJAP GANIC, Bosnian Vice President: Every five minutes we have the most sophisticated airplanes, F-16s and Tornadoes and others flying over Sarajevo. They see everything. They could distinguish boy from a girl on the bicycle they told us. They see all details. They know exact positions of every -- and what for? They -- their military genocide.

PAUL DAVIES: The U.N. suffered further embarrassment when their latest attempt to take a relief convoy into the besieged town of Gorazde was again blocked by Serbian women at the village of Mejega. The women are refusing to move off the road until a prison has taken place. The whole concept of U.N. declared safe areas of Bosnia was thrown into doubt today when a senior U.N. spokesman here admitted that even with recently arrived reinforcements the United Nations simply does not have the fire power to make towns like Gorazde and most significantly Sarajevo, itself, safe for their citizens.

MR. MUDD: The United Nations Security Council agreed to continue sanctions against Iraq today. The Council president said Iraq still had not complied with each of the Gulf War cease-fire resolutions. The U.N. imposed trade and oil embargoes against Iraq in 1991 after it invaded Kuwait. That's it for the News Summary. Just ahead on the NewsHour, a flood update, drug czar Lee Brown, the Ginsburg hearings, and Operation Rescue. UPDATE - EBB & FLOW

MR. LEHRER: We update the floods first tonight. Just when everyone thought the worst was over, it rained again. In the St. Louis area a levee broke south of the city last night. More homes were underwater today, and the forecast is for more rain through the weekend. To add to the misery, officials said a second crest was moving down the Mississippi. The river level had been dropping since it reached a record high at St. Louis Sunday night. This afternoon, Elizabeth Brackett talked with one of the people monitoring the river's comings and goings. He is Col. James Craig, head of the Army Corps of Engineers for the St. Louis area.

MS. BRACKETT: Col. Craig, thank you for joining us. There was a second crest here in St. Louis last night. Why does that happen, and what does that really mean?

COL. JAMES CRAIG, Army Corps of Engineers: Sure. Essentially, it happens because the ground is totally saturated in the entire drainage area for the Mississippi Basin, so every inch of rain that falls in that basin is going to go into the river.

MS. BRACKETT: Now, there was a tremendous rain storm here last night.

COL. CRAIG: Yes.

MS. BRACKETT: Was that the problem?

COL. CRAIG: That's not really the problem, because that's a local rain, so that may cause some problems south of here. But what causes the crest here is rain on the Missouri River and rain on the upper Mississippi River.

MS. BRACKETT: So what else goes into the rising water of the river?

COL. CRAIG: As you know, a number of levees have failed, and they have provided some temporary storage for water. But they're full now. The other part --

MS. BRACKETT: When a levee fails doesn't the water rush out? Why would it raise the level of the river?

COL. CRAIG: Sure. In that local area it's going to, to lower the river temporarily. And how much it lowers it depends on how much storage capacity there is behind that levee, but levees that have failed really are up in the Missouri River and up in the upper Mississippi River. So by the time that gets down here, that failure really doesn't lower the river any perceptible amount.

MS. BRACKETT: So this has really been more of a continuing crest, rather than one crest.

COL. CRAIG: That's correct. When you really look at it, and we sometimes try to predict where precisely the scientific crest is, but what we really did was Sunday evening we reached a crest here, and we're still on that crest.

MS. BRACKETT: And when do you think the crest will be over? That's what people here would love to know.

COL. CRAIG: I'd love to be able to answer that question, but the answer really lies with Mother Nature. When's it going to stop raining?

MS. BRACKETT: How much can the Army Corps do now to control the levels of the river?

COL. CRAIG: We have done some. We have flood control reservoirs throughout the system, and those take local rain and they will store them behind those dams to keep them off the river.

MS. BRACKETT: Now you have reservoirs under your control.

COL. CRAIG: Yes, I do.

MS. BRACKETT: How difficult are those decisions? I understand you have let some water out of your reservoir, which the people here are very aware of.

COL. CRAIG: Sure. The one that I'm concerned about in our district right now is Mark Twain Lake which is up near Hannibal, Missouri, and it's reaching, it's getting very close to its capacity. But I don't want to release any significant amount of water, because I don't want it to get onto the crest. What I'm trying to do is wait until it's past the crest and then let that out. We're letting a little bit of water out right now. We're letting out about 2,000 cubic feet per second from that, because otherwise we'd be playing that gambling game in a little too high a stake. But --

MS. BRACKETT: Can you predict now when this water though is going to go down enough to give the area some relief?

COL. CRAIG: I can't predict very precisely, but I will tell you that I don't think it's going to go down very rapidly. I think we're in for the long haul. I think it's going to take at least two to four weeks for this to go down to where it's going to get within its banks.

MS. BRACKETT: Once the river does go down, whenever this crest ends --

COL. CRAIG: Sure.

MS. BRACKETT: -- is the danger past?

COL. CRAIG: No. Actually, there are a couple of answers to that. One is the longer the crest stays up, then the more saturated the earthen levees are and the more apt they are to have problems. So those levees are not built to hold water forever. They're built to hold water temporarily. So there is, there is something we've got to keep a watch on there, remain very vigilant with. The second part is when it starts to drop, that's really where the levees will potentially have the greatest problem, because as that river drops, it tends to try to take that material from the levees with it.

MS. BRACKETT: And also, don't the levees hold the water that has over topped them away from the river, so it may actually take longer for all the water to subside?

COL. CRAIG: Oh, yes. Yeah, that's absolutely true. There have been a lot of levees in the system, private and non-federal levees, that have failed, have water stored behind them. Well, that's more stored water that's going to have to be let out into the river ultimately to drain out.

MS. BRACKETT: Now, as this crest rolls down the river, are we going to be seeing similar problems down below St. Louis and below Kayro?

COL. CRAIG: Looking at it, there should be really no problem below Kayro, the way things stand right now.

MS. BRACKETT: But it will still be the highest crest they've ever seen down there also.

COL. CRAIG: Not in Kayro, not in Kayro. It will be in Cape Girardeau, but by the time you get down to Kayro, Kayro right now is about four to five feet over their flood stage so they're having problems. But it's like the 17 feet over floodstage that you see here. And at Kayro, the Ohio River joins with the Mississippi. And the real, real potential problem below that point is from the Ohio system. In, in flood conditions on both systems, the Ohio River provides 65 percent of the water below that point.

MS. BRACKETT: Let me ask you quickly, people have said that the sea wall built here by the Corps of Engineers which significantly narrows the river here has really caused it to crest at a much higher level.

COL. CRAIG: Yeah. You can argue that point from, from multiple points of reference. The one I like to use is you compare it to before man moved into the area. I think that's really the fair comparison, because there are a lot of things that affect that. The levees certainly affect that. Bridges affect that. Houses affect it.

MS. BRACKETT: But the bottom line is you think it does or --

COL. CRAIG: The bottom line is --

MS. BRACKETT: -- it does raise it?

COL. CRAIG: -- we have done significant analyses, and the levees tend to raise it, but the flood control reservoirs tend to lower it.

MS. BRACKETT: So it's a wash.

COL. CRAIG: So it's a wash, compared to 1820, before man came into the area.

MS. BRACKETT: Col. Craig, thank you very much for joining us.

MR. LEHRER: Satellite photographs released yesterday helped illustrate the awesome size of this terrible flood. This is the area around St. Louis in July of 1988, showing the Missouri, Mississippi, and Illinois Rivers at normal size. This photo of the same area was taken a few days ago. You can see how much the rivers have swollen. Up river from St. Louis in places like Des Moines, Iowa, cleanup efforts are well underway, but the problems are not over yet. For example, the water system in Des Moines was contaminated by floodwaters almost two weeks ago, and people there still cannot turn on their taps or flush their toilets. Spencer Michels has a report on how that situation has affected businesses in Des Moines.

MR. MICHELS: Des Moines has remained without water for 11 days now, its economy all but shut down, not helped at all by the forced closing of hotels and restaurants. Downtown remains mostly a ghost town with high rises largely uninhabitable for the time being because no water is available in case fire breaks out. The businesses of Des Moines are dependent on agriculture. Flooded farmland surrounds the town. That will affect the city, according to Mayor John Dorrian.

MAYOR JOHN DORRIAN, Des Moines, Iowa: We are an agricultural state, thus Des Moines is insurance, second largest in the United States, and it will have an impact in two different ways, that the insurance companies, a lot of them are based here that have, you know, if there's crop insurance, it's probably, you know, a good, likely chance that it comes from Des Moines. But people come to the cities for services, to buy a refrigerator and to go to the hospital, and all of the different things that we offer, entertainment, and that will probably just be shut right off.

MR. MICHELS: But businesses in Des Moines also took a direct hit. At Central Place Industrial Park close by the Des Moines River, the water is down now, water that no one ever thought would flood this park. Most of these firms will survive, but it won't be easy. At Capitol Sanitary, tons of cleaning supplies and office equipment were ruined when water suddenly poured into the warehouse.

MR. MICHELS: So how high was the water in here?

SPOKESMAN: It was six feet in here, plus our building's four feet off the ground.

MR. MICHELS: So it was this high, as high as you are?

SPOKESMAN: About to here.

MR. MICHELS: Doug Ireland owns the company.

DOUG IRELAND, Capitol Sanitary: And I got a call at six in the morning from Mike Bradley, our vice president, and he said, you'd better come down here, it's bad, and at that point it was a block from 2nd Avenue, called our warehouse man, we got a boat down here and came in and just started ripping out computers and everything that was salvageable and getting it up in the air.

MR. MICHELS: Cleanup by salesmen and others has been dirty and depressing, and there's still lots to do. Capitol Sanitary is keeping all its workers and doing business out of a temporary rented office. Ireland says he needs help.

DOUG IRELAND: It's all gone, so we've just got to start over.

MR. MICHELS: What about insurance?

DOUG IRELAND: No insurance.

MR. MICHELS: Why not?

DOUG IRELAND: Well, we were told when we moved here in 1985 that this area was secure from flooding. It used to flood back in the '40s, plus private flood insurance is incredibly expensive, and this, this area for some unknown reason is not designated as a flood plain, therefore, we're not eligible for low interest or low cost flood insurance from the government.

MR. MICHELS: The lack of insurance affects all the businesses in this low lying area. At Iowa Machinery, uninsured losses, including forklifts and machine parts total nearly a million dollars. Unlike some of the companies here, this firm has not laid off any employees but is using them for cleanup, so they can reopen this facility. Owner Bob Hollwager.

BOB HOLLWAGER, Iowa Machinery: I suppose the easiest thing would have been, is to throw up the towel and try to liquidate, walk away from it, and especially at my age, but with all the employees just bending over backwards and spending all their time and the emotion involved with it trying to keep the doors open, there's no way I could walk away.

MR. MICHELS: Workers here have been on the job 16 hours a day, with breaks for beer or canned water. Like most of the owners here, Hollwager says the heavy losses will be overcome. One bright spot is the spirit of cooperation among competitors.

BOB HOLLWAGER: The morning we came in one of our forklift competitors pulled up with his big delivery truck with a front end loader and a forklift and said, I think you're going to need these, and our eyes just got so big because even though we are a forklift dealer, we probably had somewhere around 40 of them underwater here. We didn't have one that we dare start at that time because of the potential water damage.

MR. MICHELS: This is a person who really is a competitor.

BOB HOLLWAGER: Really is a competitor, yes, yes, and he said, you just keep it as long as you want. Said any time you need the delivery truck just give us a call, we'll do anything for you we can.

MR. MICHELS: Cooperation among flood victims apparently is not universal. Officials report that 200 water customers turned on their taps early, without permission, disrupting efforts to clean up the water system. That provoked the wrath of city officials who vowed to turn over the names of cheaters to the media. Aside from that, the people of Des Moines have pulled together. On the edge of the industrial park, feverish efforts proceed to make sure the area and nearby residential neighborhoods won't be deluged again. While city officials keep an eye on the receding Des Moines and Raccoon Rivers, they area also looking to the months and even the years ahead.

MAYOR JOHN DORRIAN: We've got over a million sandbags that are contaminated. Wedon't know what to do with them now. And they have to be disposed of properly. I mean, just that one thing, what do we do with the sandbags, let alone the trash, the file cabinets, and the stuffed chairs and davenports that we are going to have to bury, we're, it's going to take us as a community years and years to overcome this and to get the finances built back up, but our goal will be first to work with the, those most heavily impacted and then to evaluate the levee system so it don't happen again.

MR. MICHELS: With cleanup work continuing and businesses operating out of temporary quarters, only rough estimates of total flood damage to Des Moines have been attempted. One city councilman figures a quarter of a billion dollars. Local residents and officials are extremely grateful for volunteer help and donations, but as the magnitude of their losses becomes clearer, they realize that their efforts must now be directed at how to pay for the damage.

MR. LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, the new drug czar, day two on the Ginsburg hearings, and an update from the abortion wars. NEWSMAKER

MR. MUDD: Next tonight, a Newsmaker interview with Lee Brown, the director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, known popularly as the drug czar. When President Clinton tapped Lee Brown to direct the nation's war on illegal drugs, he picked a man with 30 years of law enforcement experience on the streets and in the classroom.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm convinced that there is no better American to lead this effort than Lee Brown.

MR. MUDD: The 55 year old Brown, who began as a patrolman in San Jose, California, is the former police commissioner of New York City. He was the first black to head the nation's largest municipal police force. He spent eight years as Houston's police chief and four years as Atlanta's public safety commissioner. Brown has a doctorate in criminology from the University of California at Berkeley. He takes over the office of Drug Control Policy amid signs that some of the most popular drugs of the 1960s, marijuana and LSD, are making a comeback among young adults. Created by Congress in 1988, the office was charged with designing a national anti-drug policy, setting budget priorities, and eliminating inter- agency turf battles. President Bush appointed William Bennett to be the first drug czar, and he pushed the Bush administration's emphasis on law enforcement and border interdiction programs.

WILLIAM BENNETT, Former Drug Control Policy Director: [Sept. 6, 1989] Nothing good can happen, education or treatment, if you live in a neighborhood with drive-by shootings where the dealers control the streets.

MR. MUDD: That policy was continued by Bennett's successor, the former governor of Florida, Robert Martinez. The Clinton administration is trying to change the focus by placing more emphasis on prevention and treatment, however, the drug office has been sharply curtailed since January. The House of Representatives earlier this month cut its budget by over $200 million. And President Clinton slashed the staff by 84 percent, from 146 jobs to 25, at the same time he was elevating the director to cabinet status.

MR. MUDD: Good evening, Director Brown.

DR. BROWN: Good evening.

MR. MUDD: Mr. Brown, Dr. Brown. Correct me if I slip and call you Czar Brown.

DR. BROWN: Okay.

MR. MUDD: Before we talk about drug policy and drug enforcement, I want to ask you about the report that was released in Albany yesterday and ordered by Gov. Cuomo on the New York City government's response to the Crown Heights Brooklyn racial violence in 1991. That report said that as police commissioner, you did not closely oversee the police response to the disturbance and that your leadership and performance were inadequate, that you informed Mayor Dinkins that the situation was under control when it was not. What's your public response to that?

DR. BROWN: Well, I have not had a chance to read the report yet, but certainly as police commissioner during that time I take responsibility for the police response. It was a sad incident. I'm still deeply saddened that two people lost their lives prior to the actual disturbance, one accidentally, and then the second is what I consider to be a senseless act of lawlessness, the violent killing of a young man who was a scholar there. The police people there, including myself, made decisions based on what we thought to be the best information at our disposal at the time. And clearly, hind sight is 20/20. I do look forward to reading the report, and hopefully, it'll be helpful for leaders in the community in the future.

MR. MUDD: But just, just saying that you take responsibility doesn't explain your actions that night. Do you have any explanation, other than what you've just said?

DR. BROWN: Well, I have not had a chance to read the report, so, therefore, I can't respond to the conclusion without determining how they reached the conclusions.

MR. MUDD: Do you think, Director Brown, that if this report had come out last spring, it would have had any effect on your confirmation as drug director?

DR. BROWN: I, I don't think so. We have a situation there, as I understand in reading the papers, where a number of people within the department, outside of the department, were criticized for what transpired there. It's important to recognize that I've had over 30 years of law enforcement experience. For 17 years I've ran police departments. Within the New York City Police Department we have, in my estimation, some of the best police managers in the country. Our collective wisdom allowed us to make the decision that we made. As I indicated, it's quite easy to look back and indicate that things should have been done differently. I hope to look at the report and determine if that was the case. If that's the case, then certainly as police commissioner I assume responsibility for what happened.

MR. MUDD: Okay. Let's talk drug enforcement and drug policy now. Last month, the government household survey on drug abuse said that the number of Americans using illegal drugs had dropped 11 percent. does that mean we are ending the war?

DR. BROWN: No, I don't think so. We have to interpret what that data means as a household survey. Many people don't live in households that are surveyed. They may be homeless. They may be in institutions. They may be in prisons. We're very pleased that we are seeing a substantial reduction in the casual drug user. We're not pleased because we're not seeing a similar reduction in the hard core drug user. So we have a very serious problem in America today. Based upon even that survey, within our inner-cities and amongst our disadvantaged, we're still seeing a very, very serious problem of hard core drug use. And that's what we want to do as an administration, focus our attention on where we see the problem. We'll do that by developing, which is my responsibility, a national crime -- drug control strategy that'll be both comprehensive and also balanced. You'll probably see obviously a greater emphasis on treatment. The President and I believe that we should close that gap between those who need treatment and the spaces available to provide the treatment.

MR. MUDD: Is that, is that the main difference you see, Mr. Brown, in your commission as director as opposed to that of your predecessors, Bennett and Martinez?

DR. BROWN: You'll see even more differences in terms of an emphasis on prevention. You'll see a difference in terms of the President's commitment to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets and do so not just for more bodies on the streets but also to implement the concept of community policing, which we believe is a better and smarter and more cost effective way of using police resources. You'll see our approach empower the communities to address the problems that exist in their communities. So our approach will be different than what we've seen in past administrations based upon our understanding. I might also add that probably most police officers on the streets of our city today, certainly the most thoughtful police administrators, recognize that what we've been doing heretofore has not solved the problem. We can arrest people in New York. For example, we've arrested up to 100,000 people a year for drug use, but we didn't solve the problem. And so what we want to do, what our goal, is to reduce drug use in America. My vision is to have a neighborhood, the neighborhoods throughout our city where we don't have a drug problem, where Mr. Jones can walk the streets without fear, where children can go to school and learn without the violence that takes place there, where we can use our parks, and those public facilities without the fear of drugs.

MR. MUDD: When we will begin to see the changes that you just enunciated?

DR. BROWN: Well, the President in the fiscal year 1994 budget has asked for a record $13 billion to support our drug program this, this coming year. In addition to that, the treatment component's being looked at by the First Lady's health reform package. Our belief is that when we look at treatment it's not only good drug policy, it's also good health policy, it's also good crime policy, it's good economic policy, and certainly it's good urban policy. So those matters are all being worked on at this point in time.

MR. MUDD: Last February when President Clinton among his first official acts cut the staff in the Drug Control Office from I think 150 or so down to 24, what sort of signal did that send to you?

DR. BROWN: I was aware that that would be taking place before I accepted the position, but I had a chance to meet with the President. And I'm extremely impressed with his commitment to address the drug issue. He's knowledgeable about it. He has a commitment. Throughout government we're reducing staff. I think it's part of what we're about in government these days, doing more with less. We will get the job done. We're working now on ways to do that. I can tap the resources in other departments. It's important to realize also that the President's elevated the position to the cabinet level position, and, thus, I sit at the table with the other members of his cabinet to address issues. When we talk about jobs, I can talk about drugs. When we talk about the whole issue of education, I can talk about drugs, and on and on. I think that will make a difference, and it's a clear indication of this President's commitment to reduce the drug use in America.

MR. MUDD: Today, Mr. Brown, we got an anonymous phone call from someone in your office. We're convinced that it was a legitimate phone call. And this caller said that the reduction in the staff had eviscerated the Drug Office staff andhave really destroyed morale. Do you have an assessment of that?

DR. BROWN: We're in the process now of going through that whole process. Clearly, when you're bringing about a change, there's a great deal of anxiety. People are not being certain of their future, and that does impact morale? But I've been very impressed with the professionalism of the people that are there. We are now in the process of producing our, our interim report, interim strategy which I promised to the Congress to have by Labor Day. And at the same time we're working on the full blown strategy which we'll want in place by February of next year.

MR. MUDD: That's required by law.

DR. BROWN: That is required by law. And that's being done by the staff. They're doing a good job. They're professionals. They're dedicated, and many of them understand the nature of the drug problem and want to be a part of making this program that we're putting together successful so that we can achieve our vision of reducing drug use in America.

MR. MUDD: On -- you were sworn in on the 21st of June, as I read the record, and about 10 days later, the House cut the Drug Office Budget, the overall budget by $231 million, and you said at a press conference that you were out of the loop and that you had only read about in the newspaper. There were a lot of jokes about that in Washington as to how you could have been out of the loop when you had been on the payroll for two weeks before, almost two weeks before the House cut it.

DR. BROWN: Well, apparently, that was misinterpreted. I said, the position had been vacant for some time and, therefore, it had not been in the loop. I was aware that the committees, the subcommittees, were looking at cutting the budget, and so what I said at the time was when the decision was made by the full House, I read about in the paper. Now, we are acutely aware of what transpired. We're in the process right now of working to make sure that the President's request is what we get. The President's duly committed to the prevention and the treatment aspect of it. And I'm working with the other cabinet members, as well as the, the Office of Management & Budget, to make sure that the President's desire and goal in the area of prevention and treatment is carried out.

MR. MUDD: But it's well known that, that those cuts came with the acquiescence, if not the encouragement, of the Office of Management & Budget and the White House, itself, so how do you get that money back if, if the very people who are over you don't want it back?

DR. BROWN: I'm, I'm not sure that's well known. It's not well known to me.

MR. MUDD: It's well known on the Hill.

DR. BROWN: Then they have different information that I have then.

MR. MUDD: Are you encountering any opposition with your, from OMB?

DR. BROWN: No, I'm not. And, in fact, I met with them yesterday. I think the key person that we have to be concerned about, because we all work for him, would be the President. That is the President's budget, and that's what we're working for, because there is a commitment to make sure we have an adequate amount of treatment. We want to bridge the gap from those who need treatment and the lack of services available for them right now.

MR. MUDD: But you're not, you're not at all itchy about the President's commitment to a vigorous drug control policy?

DR. BROWN: Well, one of the impressive reasons that I wanted to come here is that No. 1, my background, I've been an undercover narcotics officer, been in law enforcement for 30 years. I'm a criminologist by trade. I studied why people commit crimes. So it's one aspect of it. The other aspect centered around the President's commitment. As I talked to him, he was knowledgeable about the drug problem. He's committed to making sure that we do something about it. It would be my desire when the administration's over that we'll be able to say that we were successful in reducing drug use in America. So we can deal with the violence. I'm very much concerned about what I see in this country right now, the number of young people that are losing their lives as a result of drugs, teen-agers who have, should have a prospect of a productive life in the future do not have even a vision of longevity in so many cases. A lot of that's related to drugs. We have an obligation to do something about it, and I'm convinced that the will of the American people will be such they'll join this administration as we wage the efforts to reduce drugs, which brings about crime and violence and misery and despair in this country. I, I think it has to be done for the future of our children and certainly for the future of this country. And that's why we'll work extremely hard, myself and the staff that's there now and this administration, including the other secretaries, to make sure that we do something about it. The President has also talked this matter over within the cabinet, meeting with other secretaries, and there is a team effort. We don't look at the drug problem as being just a simple issue but is rather complex. We have to talk about jobs, making sure that Americans have the opportunity to have meaningful employment. Let's talk about education, making sure that our children are prepared for the job market of the future. We have to talk about housing to make sure we have adequate housing facilities. We have to talk about other social issues.

MR. MUDD: But you don't have the budget for that, Dr. Brown, do you?

DR. BROWN: It's not what I do alone, and I think that's key. We have a federal government. We can provide leadership at the cabinet level to do some of the things I'm talking about. We have to understand that the family becomes a very important issue. The religious institutions are very important, or the private sector. What I want to see happen is a massive movement, not only the federal government, state and local, and all the various institutions that exist, or even individuals can do something, be a mentor to a child.

MR. MUDD: Let me ask one final question. Are you, after we've had five or six years of the mandatory, Federal Mandatory Sentencing Act that gives stiff penalties to drug possessors and distributors with no parole, are you now in favor of rolling that law back so that there's no longer that requirement?

DR. BROWN: I support what the attorney general is doing. She's ordering a staff review of the minimum mandatory to see what should be done, if anything, differently. Clearly, it has increased the population.

MR. MUDD: Right. Almost doubled it, hasn't it?

DR. BROWN: The biggest portion of our budget now that we looked for in the drug side goes to prisons, and so we have to look at that, and I support the attorney general's looking at it to see what should be done, if anything, to change it.

MR. MUDD: Good. Well, I've enjoyed talking to you, Dr. Brown. Thank you very much.

DR. BROWN: Thank you for inviting me. UPDATE - TAKING THE STAND

MR. LEHRER: Next tonight, day two of the Ruth Bader Ginsburg confirmation hearings. The Supreme Court nominee testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Kwame Holman reports.

SEN. BIDEN: The hearing will come to order.

MR. HOLMAN: Unlike yesterday, when Senators went through two hours of opening statements, the Senate Judiciary Committee this morning got right down to questioning high court nominee Ruth Bader Ginsburg. First, was Democrat Dennis DeConcini of Arizona, who asked Ginsburg about her career long effort to invalidate laws that closed off opportunities to women, those supposedly designed to help them.

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG, Supreme Court Nominee: I tried yesterday to trace the difference between racial distinctions, Jim Crowe laws, which were not obscure and the message that one race was regarded as inferior to the other with gender classifications that will always rationalize as favors to women, and so my position was constantly, these classifications must be rethought. Are they genuinely favorable, or are they indications of stereotypical thinking about the way women or men are?

SEN. DENNIS DeCONCINI, [D] Arizona: Yesterday, Judge Ginsburg, you mentioned that on a number of personal encounters that you had relating what brought you to where you began to press these issues in a legal form, and one of the stories that I would like to, if you did not go over, and I might have missed it, the reason why you refer to this area as gender discrimination instead of sex discrimination.

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: In the '70s, when I was at Columbia and writing briefs about distinctions based on sex and writing articles and speeches, I had a secretary, and she said, I've been typing this word "sex," "sex," "sex." Let me tell you, the audience that you're addressing, the men that you're addressing, and they were all men in appellate courts in those days, the first association of that word is not what you're talking about, so I suggest that you use a grammar book term, use the word "gender," it will ward off distracting associations. [laughter in room]

SEN. DENNIS DeCONCINI: When you're confirmed and you sit on the Supreme Court, when and how do you determine whether to lead or to follow societal changes?

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: I'll give you the answers that I attempted to give in, in the Madison lecture. I quoted from a law professor who said that the rationale for that decision and the ones that followed it, the one person, one vote line of decision, was that when political avenues become dead end streets, judicial intervention in the politics of the people may be essential in order to have effective politics.

MR. HOLMAN: Republican Charles Grassley of Iowa pressed Judge Ginsburg on whether she favors judicial activism.

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY, [R] Iowa: Would you agree that judges need to exercise self-restraint and not endeavor to reform society? Isn't that a task better left to the political branches?

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: The courts hear only such controversies as the Constitution and the laws provide the courts shall hear. Courts may not hear cases for which the Constitution does not provide, for which legislation does not provide, but when the laws do provide for controversies of the judiciary nature, the judges must decide them; they have no choice.

MR. HOLMAN: Then during the afternoon session, Judge Ginsburg did something no recent high court nominee has done, spoke at length about her support for abortion rights. She had been asked by Sen. Hank Brown about her 1970s defense of a woman in the military who was told she would be discharged unless she had an abortion.

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: In that case we argued three things: One, that this regulation, if you're pregnant you're out unless you have an abortion, violated the equal protection principle, because no man was ordered out of service because he had been the partner in the conception, no man was ordered out of service because he was about to become a father. And then we said that the government is impeding without cause a woman's choice whether to bear or not to bear a child. And that was her personal choice and the interference with it was a violation of her liberty, her freedom to choose, guaranteed by the due process clause, and then finally we said that this is an unnecessary interference with her religious belief.

SEN. HANK BROWN, [R] Colorado: Could that argument be applied for someone who wished to have the option of an abortion as well? Does it apply both to the decision to not have an abortion as well as to a decision to have an abortion, terminate the pregnancy.

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: The argument was it's her right to decide either way, her right to decide whether or not to bear a child.

SEN. HANK BROWN: In this case, any restrictions from her employer to that option, to that right would constrain, would be constrained under the equal protection argument.

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: Yes. In this case, it was her choice for child birth, and she, the government was inhibiting that choice. It was, it came at the price of remaining in the service. That was -- but you asked me about my thinking about equal protection versus individual autonomy, and my answer to you is, it's, it's both. This is something central to a woman's life, to her dignity. It's a decision that she must make for herself. And when government controls that decision for her, she's being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices. I said on the equality side of it that it is essential to woman's equality with man that her choice, that she be the decision maker, that her choice be controlling -- [pause] -- and that if you impose restraints and disadvantage her, you are disadvantaging her because of her sex.

MR. HOLMAN: Finally, Sen. Paul Simon of Illinois asked Ginsburg how she would deal with the potential isolation of being on the Supreme Court.

SEN. PAUL SIMON, [D] Illinois: Have you reflected on this at all, either in your present tenure or future tenure and, and how can this nominee make sure that she stays in touch with the real problems people have out there?

JUDGE RUTH BADER GINSBURG: One of the things that I have done every other year with my, with my law clerks, more often if they are so inclined, is we visit the local jail, the D.C. jail, Lawton Penitentiary, which is the nearest penitentiary. I do that to expose myself to those conditions and also for my law clerks who most of them will go on to practice in large law firms and corporate business and won't see the law as it affects most people. So that's one of the things that, that I do to stay in touch.

MR. HOLMAN: Late this afternoon, Judiciary Chairman Joseph Biden called the progress of the hearings "wonderful." Judge Ginsburg returns tomorrow and Friday when she and members will go into a unique closed session to discuss any personal allegations against her, a new practice instituted after the Clarence Thomas hearings. FOCUS - OPERATION RESCUE

MR. MUDD: Next, an update on the latest skirmish in the continuing national battle over abortion. Both sides are claiming victory after 10 days of protest by Operation Rescue which concluded Sunday. Five hundred ninety-three people were arrested nationwide. We have the story of the protest in one city, Dallas, Texas. Our reporter is Terry Fitzpatrick of station KERA-Dallas.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Wichita, Kansas, 1991. Massive demonstrations, 2700 arrests. Confrontational tactics have brought Operation Rescue to the forefront in the fight over abortion. But Operation Rescue presented a different image last week during simultaneous demonstrations in seven cities, including Dallas. The Rev. Flip Benham is Operation Rescue's Dallas leader.

REV. FLIP BENHAM, Operation Rescue: Well, all we're doing is showing what we are, moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas, little boys and little girls living out the gospel.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Part protest, part public relations. Many of the demonstrations looked like picnics. Group members placed white crosses at Dallas City Hall and held a funeral for what they said are fetal remains found outside an abortion clinic.

RONDA MACKEY, Operation Rescue: There's 127 of these little boys and girls inside the casket right now, and we're burying them today, because they were found in a dumpster. And that's not where children belong. They belong buried.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Only twice in ten days did Operation Rescue attempt to blockade clinic doors in the Dallas area. Forty-eight people were arrested, one police officer suffered minor injuries. Operation Rescue predicted up to 2,000 demonstrators would arrive in Dallas to blockade the nine clinics where abortions are performed. But throughout the week, the crowd of demonstrators was much smaller than that, and at the clinics, police were ready and waiting. Why the small turnout? Why so little confrontation? One reason is fear, the killing of a doctor during a Florida protest in March, a stink bomb attack in Dallas the week before Operation Rescue arrived, the arrest of this man for allegedly telephoning fake bomb threats to a Dallas abortion clinic. Concerns over violence divided the anti-abortion movement before the recent round of protests began.

BILL PRICE, Texans United For Life: We do not need force.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Bill Price of the 100,000 member Texans United For Life held a press conference to ask Operation Rescue to call off its protests.

BILL PRICE: You're going to attract people who have no respect for the law.

MR. FITZPATRICK: And Price encouraged his own followers to boycott the activities.

BILL PRICE: The militant wing looks more and more like the fundamentalist Muslim groups trying to take by force what they cannot win by reason.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Another reason for the lack of violence was that police were ready.

CAPTAIN DOUG KOWALSKI, Dallas Police Department: What we'd like to do is keep 'em on the outside. That way you don't have the protesters mingling with the clinic personnel, the patients, or the relatives of the patients, which can really be an explosive situation and lead to confrontations and assaults, and we didn't want to see any injuries, and we didn't want, we didn't want it to come to that, and that's what we were really trying to avoid.

MR. FITZPATRICK: And this time police had advanced knowledge because of information they received from abortion rights groups.

JANIE BUSH, Choice, Inc.: [on phone] They're up at north Dallas, made some moves like maybe they wanted to get arrested, and then moved off the property.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Janie Bush heads a group called Choice.

JANIE BUSH: When we have information, we give it to the police department immediately.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Have you infiltrated their group?

JANIE BUSH: Yes.

MR. FITZPATRICK: So you kind of know where they're going to go - -

JANIE BUSH: Yes.

MR. FITZPATRICK: -- and when they're going to go there?

JANIE BUSH: Yes.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Have they infiltrated your side?

JANIE BUSH: I have no reason to believe that they have not.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Ninety police officers parked behind Bush's office. When she found out where the protests would be, police moved out, often arriving on the scene well before protesters.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Did you win today? Do you keep score?

POLICE OFFICER: We don't keep score. We just come out and manage. We're just the umpires. We're not one of the players.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Clinic operators say that protesters did cause schedule delays but did not prevent abortions from being performed. Betty Pettigrew runs the North Dallas Women's Clinic.

BETTY PETTIGREW, North Dallas Women's Clinic: We didn't know what to expect this summer because of what happened in Wichita, but obviously it's pretty much fizzled out as far as Dallas has been concerned.

MR. FITZPATRICK: But Operation Rescue insisted their demonstrations were a success, that, in fact, police action helped their cause.

KEVIN CAPPER, Operation Rescue: How would you like to go past an army of police and horses to go in and get your abortion? Maybe they're doing our job for us.

REV. FLIP BENHAM: [talking to group of protesters] You look so like Jesus today. This is where Jesus would be. Hallelujah!

MR. FITZPATRICK: What's next for Operation Rescue? During picketing last week, the group targeted the homes of doctors who perform abortions. With the media in tow, protesters went to one doctor's church. Rev. Benham hopes last week's relatively peaceful campaign of protests known as the Cities of Refuge will attract people to demonstrations like this year round.

REV. BENHAM: If Cities of Refuge has really done what it was intended to do, which is call the church, you will see us out every single day at these clinics, at abortionists' homes, where they practice, where they go to church. We will be there, intervening physically, and laying down our lives for these little boys and girls.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Despite Operation Rescue's claim of success, abortion providers were relieved that the protests attracted small crowds.

JANIE BUSH: None of it was as big as an invasion that we had back in January at one of the clinics or in February at one of the clinics, so wasn't much oomph to it.

MR. FITZPATRICK: Even some anti-abortion leaders say Operation Rescue was not successful at attracting new members.

BILL PRICE: Like the headline is that Operation Rescue's planned campaign was a failure. I think the sub-headline is that it shows that Dallas pro-lifers are not extremists. They didn't buy into this.

MR. FITZPATRICK: While Operation Rescue is known for aggressive tactics, the group claims this summer's peaceful campaign shows it also has discipline. As leaders packed up, they promised their demonstrations will continue. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Wednesday, the Mississippi River crested south of St. Louis. It crested for a second time in the city, itself, last night, reaching a new record. Forecasters predicted more heavy rains in the region this weekend. Supreme Court nominee Ruth Bader Ginsburg said she strongly supports abortion rights and a constitutional right to privacy. Good night, Roger.

MR. MUDD: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for tonight. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Roger Mudd. Thank you, and good night.