The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

GWEN IFILL: Good evening. I'm Gwen Ifill. Jim Lehrer is away on a book and PBS station tour. On the NewsHour tonight, our summary of the news; then today's salutes to President Ronald Reagan; a look at his life through some of his most memorable speeches; historical analysis of the lasting impact of his policies; and remembrances of Reagan, the man, as seen by those who knew him and who worked with him.

NEWS SUMMARY

GWEN IFILL: The final tributes to former President Reagan began today with a series of bicoastal observances that will begin and end in California. The first was a family gathering this morning at his presidential library in Simi Valley. The flag-draped coffin will remain there for public viewing until tomorrow. Then the commemoration moves to Washington for a state funeral Friday. The NewsHour will offer special live coverage of the funeral service at the National Cathedral beginning at 11:00 A.M. Eastern Time on Friday. We'll have more on today's event and the legacy of President Reagan right after this News Summary. An American soldier was killed, when his humvee was hit by a bomb in southern Afghanistan today. It happened near an area where U.S. warplanes have been attacking militants hiding in caves. The engagement is part of a joint U.S.-Afghan operation to quell Taliban and al-Qaida violence before September's scheduled elections. Nine major Iraqi political parties agreed today to disband their private militias. Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said about 100,000 fighters will either join state security forces or retire to civilian life by year's end. Militias not signing on to today's agreement, including those loyal to rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, were declared to be illegal. Also today, one Iraqi died and nine were injured when a weapons cache caught fire in Kufa. Military officials said no U.S. troops were in the vicinity at the time. The military also reported one U.S. soldier was killed and another wounded Sunday in a mortar attack north of Baghdad. Iraq will be on the agenda at the G-8 economic summit, which begins tomorrow in Sea Island, Georgia. The group of eight includes the world's seven richest nations, plus Russia. Interim Iraqi President Ghazi al-Yawer will meet one on one with president bush, the only non-G-8 member to do so. National security adviser Condoleezza Rice said the U.S. Is serious about restoring Iraqi self-rule.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE: The multi-national coalition with a U.S. commander, of course, and the Iraqi government have an understanding about how this should go forward. And we believe that that understanding should now give comfort to all that the Iraqis will indeed have full sovereignty, that the Iraqis will have command of their own forces, that there will be mechanisms for the coordination and consultation as well as for discussion of policy of issues like policy on sensitive offensive operations.

GWEN IFILL: Rice also said that, in addition to Iraq, the G-8 leaders will discuss Middle East peace, world poverty, and aids relief. The U.S. Military in South Korea said today it will withdraw one- third of its troops from that country by the end of 2005. A statement issued in Seoul said the pullout of more than 12,000 troops does not change the U.S. commitment to defend South Korea. The total number of U.S. troops on the Korean Peninsula will decline to 24,500, from 37,000. Israel's ruling coalition survived two no-confidence votes in parliament today. This, after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's cabinet voted on Sunday to withdraw Israeli settlements from Gaza. The 14-7 passage approved the plan only in principle. A vote on actual settlement removal was delayed until March 2005. The Supreme Court ruled on two cases today. One allows Americans to sue foreign governments for the return of art and other property stolen by the Nazis more than 65 years ago. The 6-3 ruling was a victory for an elderly California woman who has been trying to retrieve $150 million worth of artwork that belonged to her family. The other ruling opens U.S. roadways to Mexican trucks after a decade of delays. The unanimous ruling rejected air quality and safety issues raised by labor and environmental organizations. The 1993 North American Free Trade Agreement opened U.S. borders to the vehicles more than ten years ago. In New York City last night, "Avenue Q" won the Tony Award for best musical. "I am my own wife" took the honors for best play, and its sole performer, Jefferson Mays, was named best actor in a play. Phylicia Rashad was named best actress in a play for her role in "A Raisin in the Sun." On Wall Street today, the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ announced they will close on Friday to honor President Reagan. The Dow Jones Industrial Average gained 148 points to close at 10,391, and the NASDAQ rose 42 points to close above 2020. That's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to: Today's services; Reagan's words; historians on his legacy; and insiders on his personality.

FOCUS - SAYING GOOD-BYE

GWEN IFILL: Thousands of mourners bid farewell to former President Ronald Reagan today. A ceremony in southern California was the first in a week's worth of tributes. Ray Suarez has our report.

RAY SUAREZ: Former First Lady Nancy Reagan paused as she arrived at a Santa Monica funeral home this morning with her children, Patti and Ron. She read several of the notes well-wishers had placed as part of an impromptu shrine that blossomed soon after Ronald Reagan's death on Saturday at age 93. Also mixed among the flowers, flags, and stuffed animals were jars of jelly beans, like those the president always kept on the desks of the Oval Office and White House cabinet room. At mid-morning, the flag-draped casket carrying the former president's body was placed inside a hearse by military honor guard. Mrs. Reagan acknowledged the applause and cheers from a nearby crowd with a slight wave and then entered a limousine for the one-hour, 40-mile trip north to the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley. (Playing "Hail to the Chief") As a military band played "Hail to the Chief," the casket was lifted from the hearse and carried into the presidential library. (Playing "Hail to the Chief") the Reverend Michael Wenning, the family pastor, conducted a brief, simple ceremony attended only by the Reagan family and a few friends.

REV. MICHAEL WENNING: Eternal and Almighty God, as we have begun this day to honor the life of your servant, Ronald Reagan, I would pray especially for his dear family. I pray, oh Lord God, that you would give them an extra strength, a sense of your peace and your comfort, through the many greetings and the many miles which they must travel from one coast to our nation's capital, I pray, oh Lord God, that would grant them sleep at night, a refreshing of tired bodies and weary spirits. May they be rejuvenated each day and greeted knowing that you are their strength, their Lord, and their righteousness.

RAY SUAREZ: Afterward, Mrs. Reagan approached the casket.

RAY SUAREZ: The body of former President Reagan will lie in repose here at the presidential library through tomorrow evening, giving Californians a chance to pay their final respects to the former two-term governor. Current Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and wife Maria Shriver were among the first to arrive this afternoon. On Wednesday, the casket will be flown to Andrews Air Force base outside Washington. A formal funeral procession will the rotunda of the United States capitol, followed by a ceremony attended by the Reagan family, heads of state, and members of Congress. There the body will lie in state until Friday morning, when it will be taken to Washington's National Cathedral for the national funeral. Former President Bush will deliver the eulogy. The body then will be flown back to the presidential library in California, where the former president will be laid to rest during a private burial service attended by family and friends.

FOCUS - IN HIS OWN WORDS

GWEN IFILL: America's 40th president was known as the Gipper, the Teflon president, the great communicator. It was that last label that stuck, as much as for what he said as for how he said it. Kwame Holman continues our remembrance of Ronald Wilson Reagan with excerpts from speeches he gave over nearly three decades in public life.

RONALD REAGAN: Thank you and good evening.

KWAME HOLMAN: October 1964, the speech that launched Ronald Reagan's political career: A televised address on behalf of presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.

RONALD REAGAN (Oct. 27, 1964): I have spent most of my life as a democrat. I recently have seen fit to follow another course. I believe that the issues confronting us cross party lines. This idea that government is beholden to the people, that it has no other source of power except to sovereign people, is still the newest and the most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man. This is the issue of this election. You and I are told increasingly we have to choose between a left or right. Well, I would like to suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down: Man's old-age dream, the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order; or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism. And regardless of their sincerity, their humanitarian motives, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward course.

KWAME HOLMAN: October 1980, the GOP candidate debating then- President Jimmy Carter:

RONALD REAGAN: Next Tuesday all of you will go to the polls, will stand there in the polling place and make a decision. I think when you make that decision, it might be well if you would ask yourself, are you better off than you were four years ago?

RONALD REAGAN: I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear...

KWAME HOLMAN: January 1981, the inaugural address:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: As we begin, let us take inventory. We are a nation that has a government, not the other way around. And this makes us special among the nations of the earth. Our government has no power except that granted it by the people. It is time to check and reverse the growth of government, which shows signs of having grown beyond the consent of the governed. Now, so there will be no misunderstanding, it's not my intention to do away with government. It is rather to make it work-- work with us, not over us; to stand by our side, not ride on our back.

SPOKESPERSON: President Reagan...

KWAME HOLMAN: April 1981, after surviving an assassination attempt:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: The warmth of your words, the expression of friendship and, yes, love, meant more to us than you can ever know. You have given us a memory that we will treasure forever. And you've provided an answer to those few voices that were raised, saying that what happened was evidence that ours is a sick society. The society we heard from is made up of millions of compassionate Americans and their children, from college age to kindergarten. As a matter of fact, as evidence of that I have a letter with me. The letter came from Peter Sweeney. He's in the second grade in the Riverside School in Rockville Center, and he said, "I hope you get well quick or you might have to make a speech in your pajamas." (Laughter) (Applause) And he added a postscript. "P.S., If you have to make a speech in your pajamas, I warned you." ( Laughter )

KWAME HOLMAN: March 1983, a speech to the National Association of Evangelicals and a message about the Soviet threat and nuclear arms:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: The truth is, that a freeze now would be a very dangerous fraud, for that is merely the illusion of peace. The reality is that we must find peace through strength. (Applause) I would agree to a freeze if only we could freeze the Soviets' global desires. (Applause) Let us be aware that while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world. So in your discussions of the nuclear freeze proposals I urge you to beware the temptation of pride, the temptation of blithely declaring yourselves above it all, and label both sides equally at fault; to ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of an evil empire; to simply call the arms race a giant misunderstanding, and thereby remove yourself from the struggle between right and wrong and good and evil.

KWAME HOLMAN: June 1984, the 40th anniversary of the d-day invasion at Normandy:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: Some who survived the battle of June 6, 1944, are here today. Others who hoped to return never did. "Someday, Liz, I'll go back," said Private First Class Peter Robert Zanatta of the 37th engineer combat battalion, and first assault wave to hit Omaha Beach. "I'll go back and I'll see it all again. I'll see the beach, the barricades and the graves." Those words of Private Zanatta come to us from his daughter, Lisa Zanatta Henn, in a heartrending story about the event her father spoke of so often. Private Zanatta's daughter wrote to me: "I don't know how or why I can feel this emptiness, this fear, or this determination, but I do. Maybe it's the bond I had with my father. All I know is that it brings tears to my eyes to think about my father as a 20-year-old boy having to face that beach." Through the words of his loving daughter, who is here with us today, a D-Day veteran has shown us the meaning of this day far better than any president can. It is enough for us to say about Private Zanatta and all the men of honor and courage who fought beside him four decades ago: We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared so we may be always free. (Applause)

SPOKESPERSON: T-minus ten, nine, eight...

KWAME HOLMAN: January 1986, after the "Challenger" disaster that killed seven astronauts:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: The families of the seven, we cannot bear, as you do, the full impact of this tragedy. But we feel the loss, and we're thinking about you so very much. Your loved ones were daring and brave, and they had that special grace, that special spirit that says, "Give me a challenge and I'll meet it with joy." The crew of the space shuttle "Challenger" honored us by the manner in which they lived their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them, this morning, as they prepared for their journey and waved good- bye and "slipped the surly bonds of Earth" to "touch the face of God." Thank you.

KWAME HOLMAN: June 1987, at the Berlin Wall:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization, come here to this gate. Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate. (Cheers and applause) Mr. Gorbachev... Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. (Cheers and applause)

KWAME HOLMAN: And January 1989, Ronald Reagan's farewell from the Oval Office:

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN (Jan. 11, 1989): I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors, and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, and see it still. And how stands the city on this winter night? More prosperous, more secure, and happier than it was eight years ago. We've done our part. And as I walk off into the city streets, a final word to the men and women of the Reagan revolution, the men and women across America who for eight years did the work that brought America back. My friends, we did it. We weren't just marking time. We made a difference. We made the city stronger, we made the city freer, and we left her in good hands. All in all, not bad-- not bad at all. And so, good-bye, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.

GWEN IFILL: In November 1994, President Reagan revealed he had Alzheimer's Disease. In a letter to the American people he wrote in part" Let me thank you, the American people, for giving me the great honor of allowing me to serve as your President I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. I know that for America there will always be a bright dawn ahead."

FOCUS - LASTING IMPACT

GWEN IFILL: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight: Remembering Reagan, the policymaker, and Remembering Reagan, the man.

GWEN IFILL: Ronald Reagan was the oldest man ever to serve as president, the longest-living ex-president, and the first American president to serve two full terms since Dwight David Eisenhower. We look at the legacy of those years with presidential historians Michael Beschloss and Richard Norton Smith, director of the Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum; journalist and author Haynes Johnson; and Roger Wilkins, professor of history at George Mason University.

Richard, what would you say would be the most enduring feature of Ronald Reagan's legacy?

RICHARD NORTON SMITH: Well, everyone this weekend has talked about winning the Cold War, that will be part of the historical debate, that certainly is an enormous par of the legacy. Let me suggest something that people haven't talked about very much. He really probably more than any president since FDR transformed the political landscape, and that's not easy to do. FDR shattered the political consensus that he found in place in 1933, and he left behind a new consensus and an army of followers who for 50 years really defined American politics. And Ronald Reagan really followed in his footsteps, even if they charted a different course. American conservatism before Ronald Reagan, conservatives were people who were fighting a rear guard against the 20th century. They invited caricature; they were overfed men in bat wing collars and lid old ladies in tennis shoes who worried about fluoridation in their water. But Ronald Reagan not only put a smile on the face of conservatism, his conservatism was not only optimistic, it was futuristic. And that I think is an enormous part of his legacy, one this is still unfolding and, don't forget, there's a whole generation of young people who came of age during the Reagan years, many of whom you in this White House, others in all other sorts of fields, so the Regan legacy marches on into the 21st century.

GWEN FILL: Michael, if you use Richard's tem of the new consensus that was formed, does that constitute the Reagan Revolution we hear about, and if it does, how would that manifest itself in policy?

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: It does a little bit, although, you know, a large part of the Reagan Revolution was reduce the size of government. Reagan couldn't do it, nor could any later president, nor could any Republican today who might run now or in four years, so it didn't quite happen. At the same time Richard is right in terms of there are certain things now that are centrist that 25 years ago were conservative. Bill Clinton who was with a Great Society liberal when he started out was the one in 1996 who said the era of big government is over, and also signed a welfare bill that was anything but liberal. He did that because the consensus had moved, he was afraid not to. He wanted to run for re-election. And the other thing that Reagan did that I think did buck this is one test of a leader is if he or she creates an institution that carries on his or her ideas after they leave the stage. The Republican Party in 1980 was moderate and even liberal enough so that the elder George Bush almost got that nomination in 1980, he was a moderate from the Northeast. Nowadays, the Republican Party is 90 to 100 percent a Ronald Reagan party, conservative southwestern, and also very religious. He changed it, and it is in a way an engine of Reaganism that carries that on.

GWEN IFILL: Roger , let's talk about his domestic policy. Pick up where Michael left off and say how did this Reaganism translate into domestic policy in a way that still reverberates today.

ROGER WILKINS: Well, Reagan was an incredible combination of a person who was very optimistic, upbeat, but under northeast there were some really ugly parts of his politics. He was, I said once before on this program, he capitalized on anti-black populism by going to Philadelphia and Mississippi, for example, in the beginning of his campaign in 1980. Nobody had ever heard of Philadelphia and Mississippi outside of Mississippi, except as the place where three civil rights workers had been lynched - in 1964 - he said I believe in states rights. Everybody knew what that meant. He went to Stone Mountain, Georgia, where the Ku Klux Klan used to burn its crosses, he said Jefferson Davis is a hero of mine. He was rebuked by the Atlanta newspapers - they said we don't need that any more here. He went to Charlotte, North Carolina one of the most successful busing for integration programs in the country and he said I'm against busing and then some of the papers rebuked him. And the impact of that plus his attacks on welfare women, welfare queens in Cadillacs, for example - and his call for cutting the government. He didn't cut the government; the military bloomed in his time. But programs for poor people day diminished entirely and America became a less civilized and less decent place.

GWEN IFILL: Haynes, how does the Ronald Reagan that Roger is describing here conflate with the Ronald Reagan we've been hearing about for the past 48 hours, the man who brought down the Berlin Wall, the man who brought freedom to the world?

HAYNES JOHNSON: That's the wonderful question about Ronald Reagan. What we're watching here on the screen, you see these pictures, the wonderful pictures in our head, this ebullient, happy, confident man. I think his greatest legacy, I agree he changed the conservative policies of the country, he made a difference in our politics that no one has done since Roosevelt, all that's true, and there are differences in politics, domestic and foreign. But the ability as a leader to stamp himself on the consciousness of the country, and bend history to his will - Reagan did that - I happen to think a lot of policies by my view were wrong, whatever that's worth, but he did it. He was right when he said a minute ago, you showed up clip, we made a difference. And we did it; he did do that. And that's a very rare thing in our lifetime to see presidents come in and through the power of personality, persona, and good luck too, had a period of history, a lot of gloomy things that had happened, the taking of the hostages, 21 percent on the inflation rate and all that, Watergate, his fascinations, then he comes in and promises, we're going to be great again. And he was able to convince the country and that's why I think a lot of what we're seeing now is a response to that picture of Ronald Reagan, the ebullient, happy, care-free elegant not cocky but always waiting smiling, and that enabled him to get the policies, which made him very extreme, through the Congress, a Democratic Congress at the time, and even lasting today.

GWEN IFILL: And, Richard, interestingly enough, this president's legacy is also -- encompasses his ability to deal with the leaders of a nation once called an evil empire and later embraced Mikhail Gorbachev and glasnost became sort of the definition of a success in Ronald Reagan's time. You work out for us how those two things come together.

RICHARD NORTON SMITH: Again, to pick up on what Haynes said, this is part of the great, the elusiveness, the surprising quality of Reagan, because Reagan made his own journey; everyone expected Reagan, the ultimate old Cold Warrior in 1981 - and in fact for much of his first term relations between and the United States and the Soviet Union were absolutely frozen. And yet the second term, again, the popular notion is that the Reagan second term was pretty rocky, arguably, it was in rocky in some ways historically; however, the greater accomplishments surrounding the IMF Treaty, and in fact the reversal of the Cold War but remember Ronald Reagan was the most unconventional political figure of his time. Most politicians are incrementalists; they think in baby steps. Ronald Reagan tended to leap frog the conventional wisdom and he did -

GWEN IFILL: If I may jump in there -- for instance, being the former union leader who managed to fire the union members in the Air Traffic Controllers strike.

RICHARD NORTON SMITH: Which actually had a significant impact, believe it or not, on arms control because it delivered a message after the drift of the 70's that this was a man who behind the velvet, behind the charm, behind the honeyed words, there were absolute steel and when he aid he would do something, no whatever what the risk, the boldness involved, he probably would do it. And that sent a very powerful signal to Moscow that reverberated years later.

GWEN IFILL: But, Michael, you pointed out a moment ago that the President -- one of the things President Reagan promised to do was to shrink the size of government. Yet, the Defense Department doubled during this time and there were huge deficits which were part of that legacy.

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: Sure did, and that's one of the things that history does, because the deficits were a big problem at the time, he was justly criticized but much later we've got to sort of make decisions, was this the right thing, and increasingly it is very possible that that defense spending which caused those deficits may have been necessary to send a message to Moscow that Reagan was serious, the Soviets could not hope to compete with us so, if those deficits brought about the end of the Cold War, historically they were probably justified. The other thing, I disagree a little with Richard in terms of saying that Reagan changed on the Soviet Union. I think he was totally consistent because you go back to 1979 and 1980, what he was saying was we have to demonstrate will of the Soviets. Once we do that, they'll have new leadership, it comes to us with concessions, that's exactly what happened with Mikhail Gorbachev, so essentially he was just accepting to some extent Gorbachev's surrender.

GWEN IFILL: Were tax cuts an important part of his legacy, Roger?

ROGER WILKINS: Well, they're than enormous part of his legacy. Remember -- I don't know whether it was O'Neil or Woodward who quotes Dick Cheney as saying Reagan taught us that deficits don't count. And it became almost a theological part of the Republican program.

GWEN IFILL: And it remains such?

ROGER WILKINS: That's right. To cut taxes and what it has done, you know, Brandeis once said that taxes are what we pay for civilization, and when we cut taxes, generally what we do, we don't cut military, we cut programs for poor people. And so you increase the misery in the country and that's part of the legacy.

HAYNES JOHNSON: Of course, one of the myths of this is that yes he believed in cutting taxes passionately, no question about that; believed in fighting communism and all that, and shrinking the size of government. Government didn't, it increased 7 percent or something like - actual employment of the government in those years. He did cut the taxes and he had to sign 13 tax increases but they were never called tax increases; they were revenue enhancers. The money raised up and so forth, and he got away with it.

ROGER WILKINS: And he believed it.

HAYNES JOHNSON: And believed it because of the persona of the man and also the country was in moving well and finally the Cold War was over.

ROGER WILKINS: He said those, he believed those things and the American people could see he believed what he said and they liked it.

GWEN IFILL: Richard, you want to jump in on this?

RICHARD NORTON SMITH: One of the paradox else of this paradoxical many, the only professional actor to ever occupy the Oval Office was remembered by most Americans for an authenticity. Even his gaffs tended to contribute to the sense that this man was real. He went into politics had he was 55 years old, they sense he went into politician because of ideas, because of things he believed, not because he needed to be president or because he needed an office for his ego, and I think that contributed in no small measure to the bond that he had, even people who disagreed his ideas.

GWEN IFILL: So if the president, said, Michael, for instance, that vis- -vis Iran Contra, that he believed in his heart one thing but the facts show otherwise, that was something that people were willing to accept?

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: That's it, because here is the biggest trouble spot in the Reagan presidency. He was in danger of impeachment in 1986, there was a suggestion that he had knowingly ordered the diversion of funds from the Nicaraguan contras, which would have been against the law, and because of that bond with the people, the committee on Capitol Hill took impeachment off the table at the beginning of the investigations, they essentially said among themselves, we like President Reagan, we don't want him to fail, the country has been through Vietnam, Watergate, a lot of other failed presidents -- we don't want to do that. And also Americans when they heard him go on television and say in my heart I don't believe I traded arms for hostages, but the facts tell me so, I'm sorry, I'll never do it again, that ended it, it shows how important it is for a president to have though that kind of appeal.

GWEN FILL: Does that mean, Roger, that he was a creature of his time uniquely?

ROGER WILKINS: He was a creature of himself, you can tell I didn't like his policies at all. But I had contact with him, and I would tell him I disagree with those policies and he would be so, he would say we can work this out.

GWEN IFILL: Did you ever work it out?

ROGER WILKINS: Of course not. But --

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: They don't even try nowadays.

ROGER WILKINS: But you couldn't walk away saying there's a hateful human being. You say I hate those policies, and that was a large part of his success.

HAYNES JOHNSON: One of the things on the clip you showed earlier the scene of Ronald Reagan giving the speech and the pajamas --the two people behind him, I don't remember them doing this at all, is Tip O'Neill and George Bush, and they're laughing, their political rivals, that's why it, they liked it; they enjoyed him. The Democrats liked him and even the liberals, they thought he was a doddering old fool, but they liked him. There wasn't a sense of hatred for him.

GWEN IFILL: Richard, was he a creature of his time?

RICHARD NORTON SMITH: I think he transcended his time. He was both a traditionalist, someone who for millions of people who felt that our culture was adrift - embodied what we call traditional values - but he was also a visionary; he was a man , you had a sense he couldn't wait to get to the 21st century just to see all of is belief in the future confirmed.

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: Let's go back where we started. Michael, was this a revolution that had left behind?

MICHAEL BESCHLOSS: I think that's too strong a word, but he did change things in a big way. He wanted to end the Cold War on his time and do it by a very controversial program of increasing defense spending, challenging the Soviets, it worked -- whether it was entirely his doing or not, historians will argue for years -- and he also wanted to make the same more conservative country and his party a more conservative, he did that too - both of those things in 1980 most people would have thought almost impossible.

GWEN IFILL: Michael Beschloss, Roger Wilkins, Haynes Johnson and Richard Norton Smith, thank you all very much.

FOCUS - REMEMBERING THE MAN

GWEN IFILL: Now, Reagan, the political man, and to Margaret Warner.

MARGARET WARNER: And here to help us paint that political portrait further are four people who worked with him: Jeane Kirkpatrick, a member of the first Reagan cabinet as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. Ken Duberstein, who served in Reagan's first term as assistant for legislative affairs and in the second term as deputy chief of staff and then chief of staff of the White House. David Gergen, who was White House director of communications in the first Reagan term. And former Democratic Congressman William Gray of Pennsylvania. He negotiated with President Reagan as chairman of the House Budget Committee throughout the second Reagan term and as House majority whip. Welcome to you all.

Let's pick up where the last discussion left off and the discussion of Ronald Reagan's charm and personal appeal. David Gergen, what is your most vivid personal recollection of how he used that charm to political effect?

DAVID GERGEN: I, listen, there's so many different stories about Ronald Reagan. But one that I think impressed me and helped me understand leadership a lot more fully was what came from the summit conference, the G-7 summit conference in Williamsburg that he was hosting, and he had on a Wednesday he had a massive day of meetings - one on one meetings with world leaders, plus a couple of plenary sessions he had to be the host for. So there was this great big thick briefing book that was prepared by the White House staff and the State Department, and Jim Baker went to him very gingerly, chief of staff, and said Mr. President, you know, you tend to really like to read slowly at night, because you want to memorize things, but tonight can you, we're really worried you won't get enough sleep and frankly we'd be worried Nancy would be on the war path the next day. Could you just skim over this tonight and sort of come in the next day, and so he came in the next morning, looked like he came in for breakfast around 7:30 - look like he had been hit by a Mack truck, his eyes were all gray and everything like that and he sat down and he got about ten or fifteen minutes into the eggs and he and looked up and see, fellows, I've got a confession to make, last night I sat down with your briefing book around 9:00 and you've done a great job, and I want to thank you for it, but about 9:15 I turned on the TV, and you know the "Sound of Music" was on last night. You know the "Sound of Music" is one of my favorite movies, so I never had a chance to read a briefing book, but I didn't get a lot of sleep. We thought oh, wow, he didn't read all these things we put together. And then he taught me something about leaders. You know, he was better that day in the meetings than we'd ever seen him, and that's because he wasn't bogged down with all those facts that we on the staff in our arrogance thought we had to stuff him with. And he could get up and be Reagan and that was look at the big picture and that's where he was best. He was a big picture guy. He look liked to look out over the far horizon, he would leave details to others but he was very good on the big picture.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Ken Duberstein, pick up from that and tell us your favorite recollection, and you were there as the legislative director in the first Reagan term. Here he was in political Washington with Congress controlled by the Democrats, yet, he'd managed to work his will on tax cuts and big defense spending. How did his personal qualities make that happen?

KEN DUBERSTEIN: You know, he always thought to that to be an effective president he needed to win on Capitol Hill. What he did was say I want to meet everybody, I want to listen to their concerns. I want to make sure that they're hearing me directly. It's not from afar, but down in the Oval Office by meeting at Camp David occasionally, by the cabinet room, I want to get to these in folks, not just the Republicans, but every Democrat, but every Republican. I want to start working with them, and I remember as we headed to that first budget resolution which Bill Gray will remember, and the Bo weevil Democrats, those southern Democrats were saying we don't know whether he's going to cut enough, but you know we're going to see if we can forge an alliance. And the night he gave a speech to the joint session of Congress, I remember being on the House floor and walking up to some of those southern Democrats and saying well, I promised you he would talk about tax cuts but also spending reductions. And they said, well, I don't know if he cut enough, we think we can work out some things. And the next morning, Ronald Reagan had over 60 Democrats in the cabinet room and in the White House talking about where to cut more. It was always the give and take that he enjoyed doing, the personal relationships -- always starting every meeting with a laugh or a story. It was engaging, like I don't think anybody has ever engaged before as far as being president. Even when they didn't support him, ultimately they would on the next vote, or the vote after, he never gave up. That was his optimism and people always got to like Ronald Reagan, and therefore they trusted him. The other part, Margaret, is people used to say that Ronald Reagan was the best lobbyist in America. And Reagan would say to these congressmen, no, I'm the second best lobbyist. The best one is the one back home who votes, and my job is to connect with them. And David will remember that's one of the reasons why Ronald Reagan started the radio addresses -- because he wanted five minutes unfiltered talking to the American people with his beliefs ultimately the Congress would then follow.

MARGARET WARNER: Right, and over the heads of Congress. Bill Gray, your cue. You were on the other end of this, whether it was a charmed offensive or a negotiation. What was he like to negotiate with?

FORMER REP. WILLIAM GRAY: Well, he was very charming, very optimistic, very persistent, and very impressive. When I was chairman of the Budget Committee I often met him in the private residence part of the White House, we would have lunch with his chief of staff and with the Republican chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, Pete Domenici. And he was just absolutely impressive. But one of the funny stories that I remember is we were having a good time, he was telling jokes, we were having a wonderful luncheon together; then it was time to talk business, he reached in his pocked and pulled out three by five cards, and he said, Bill Gray, I want to welcome you - he started reading from the three by five cards. But he was optimistic. He was very persistent. We never did agree on any of the budget priorities, I was chairman his second term. The first term he bowled the Democrats over and he did get over 60 Democrats to vote with him. And there's a reason. That was because of a political alignment, it wasn't on the substance, it was on the fact that weighing Ronald Reagan did something that no other president had done in recent political history and that was when he got elected, congressional districts that were heavily Democratic voted Republican. That's where the main Reagan Democrats came from. So you suddenly found all of these Democrats who came from the South, largely some of the issues that Roger raised earlier about race. He won those districts big time, and some of them were facing a political storm. Do I support this president or fight him. And they bolted the Democratic Party and they supported him. That was not only true of the South, but it was also true of suburban districts and also certain urban districts where traditionally Democrats left the Democratic Party and voted Republican and they were called the Reagan Democrats - but he was a charming very personable persistent guy, and the one thing I remember in dealing with him, he was never vicious or mean. If you disagreed with him, he would consider with you politely, but he was a gentleman, there was never a threat, there was never this I'm coming after you approach of today's politics.

MARGARET WARNER: Jeane Kirkpatrick what was he like negotiating with foreign leaders, I remember had he was first elected - there was great alarm in Europe - this cowboy had been elected. What was he like actually interacting with them?

JEANE KIRKPATRICK: Just, just as you've heard him described in domestic politics. That's charming, prepared. He might have a three by five card or two, but most heads of state do when they have real negotiations -- very pleasant -- very interested in the other person's views, that's always seeking the dues of the persons with whom he was dealing.

MARGARET WARNER: But was he, he has this image of being a sort of rock hard conservative, anti-communist, anti-government on the domestic side. But did you find him -- I mean, in foreign affairs, was he, how ideological was he? I know you were there in the first term and we saw a change in the second term. But do you think it was ideological -

JEANE KIRKPATRICK: We saw a change in the Soviet Union in the second term, I think. I think that Ronald Reagan had his views in about the world, in foreign affairs and the view of the world, reasonably well formulated before he ever ran for office for president in fact. And I don't think, I think that he wanted to hear other people's views, and he always listened carefully, and from time to time he changed his own mind about a position. And especially he took pains to listen carefully to foreign leaders with whom he was dealing.

MARGARET WARNER: Weigh in on this -- this question of really to what degree he was an ideologue and to what degree he was a pragmatist - and flexible.

DAVID GERGEN: Well, I think he was both. He had very firm principles, but he was willing to be pragmatic on how he carried them out. You know, there's an old story about Abraham Lincoln, about his leadership, that captures Reagan and that Lincoln said from his boyhood that he used to go down the Mississippi on a raft and what he learned was if you want to get to the end of the Mississippi, don't get on the raft and go straight down the river, you go on side and you put your rafter over there, and you get further, you zig back the other way, and Reagan was willing to do that as long as he kept always in mind that he wanted to get down the river. He always had a destination in mind, he had a port to seek, and I think that was part of his strength, the other part is Ken Duberstein can relate so well is when he negotiated. If he were negotiating with Tip O'Neill, he'd go up there - he'd get 67 maybe even 80 percent in the first bargain and then he'd come back for the rest. He said let's get half a loaf now and go back for the rest later.

KEN DUBERSTEIN: But it wasn't half a loaf, it was usually, as Tip said I don't like compromising with Ronald Reagan because Ronald Reagan gets 80 percent of what he wants each time. But you know, Margaret, it really is encapsulized in that Russian proverb that Reagan used to use so much, translated, trust but verify. He was an ideologue, but he was also the ultimate pragmatist. I want to get as much as I can -- what it is, is this country and the world is not made up of Hail Mary passes, but three yards and a cloud of dust. And I want to move things down the field.

MARGARET WARNER: And Ken Duberstein, let me just ask you about the second term because you were really there at the end after the Iran contra affair, after the Senate went back to Democratic hands. Did you, and this is a sensitive question, but you were there at the beginning of the first term and the end of the second term, did you see a diminution in his energy and engagement and maybe in his faculties that looking back now you would say, you know, there was a diminution?

KEN DUBERSTEIN: I have thought about that long and hard and I'll tell you the energy and the insight and the leadership, yes, and also the stories from 1981 were every bit as strong in1988 and in '89. I remember sitting a across with him from Mikhail Gorbachev in Washington, in Moscow, and then in the last month in Governor's Island. And here was Mikhail Gorbachev in some ways treating Ronald Reagan as a big brother, as an older brother. And I remember this conversation with Gorbachev complaining about his problems with the bureaucracy in the Soviet Union and Reagan saying to him, but how many times must I tell you, the only way to beat a bureaucracy is to have the people on your side. So Mr. Gorbachev, you have to spend more on consumers and less on the military. There was no diminution they ever saw between 1981, 1989. Last comment. Ted Kennedy said at the end of the presidency, Ronald Reagan might not remember your name, but he always remembered his goals. That's what I think was important.

MARGARET WARNER: Bill Gray. Your on observations, you there were in the second term. In terms of you said he would pull out a three by five card, but did he always seem on top of the essential details?

FORMER REP. WILLIAM GRAY: No, not on details, but on the big picture he was. He was very persistent; he knew exactly what he wanted and he had a firm set of ideas about the major items. He wouldn't get into the details. I almost had a fit one time when he raised up the budget, all the books, and aid I'll never do this again, I felt like screaming, but you approved all the while you knew of every negotiation that took place, you weren't involved in it, but your secretary of the treasury, your chief of staff, your budget chairman, and so what he was very firm in his pig principles and then he would leave to it his staff to negotiate the details. And often the details were not what the principles were. Let me give two examples, one, he always talked about reducing the size. Government did not get reduced, you just got a shift of where money was send. Secondly he talked about the budget deficits being Democrat. The fact of the matter is that the Republican and Democratic Congress appropriated less than money than he actually requested in all eight of his budgets.

MARGARET WARNER: Let me just get to Jeane Kirkpatrick; we only have a few second left. Howard Baker said he also had a great capacity for surprise, that he did have an ability to embrace sort of big sweeping new ideas. Would you agree with that?

JEANE KIRKPATRICK: Yes. His biggest surprise was when he turned down, the Gorbachev deal at Reykjavik and walked out and said we've talked long enough and I'm not going to talk any more now. Let me just say, I was with him at the dinner with Gorbachev, I sat beside and with Raisa, he was absolutely charming to Raisa, he was very well informed about her particular interests, he knew what he she had been teaching. He knew she was a professor. He was charming to anyone because he liked to charm people, I think.

MARGARET WARNER: Final quick thought from you, Dave Gergen?

DAVID GERGEN: I think we ought to remember the big picture about Reagan himself, it does seem to me that after a long time, remember when he came to power, I think he did expand the boundaries of freedom in this country and oversees, he rebuilt the American presidency; it was in trouble when he came into office as an institution, and he did through his communications and through his own inspiration, and his principles, I think he did lift our spirits about, and convince us that once again that the future of the best, our best days were always ahead of us.

MARGARET WARNER: David Gergen, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Bill Gray, Ken Duberstein, thank you all.

RECAP

GWEN IFILL: Again, the major developments of the day: A week of mourning and tribute to former President Reagan began at the Reagan presidential library this morning, the first in a series of bicoastal observances. Nine major Iraqi political parties agreed to disband their private militias. Fighters loyal to rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr did not sign on to that agreement. And the U.S. Military announced it will withdraw one-third of its troops from South Korea by the end of 2005. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening with more on the legacy of President Reagan. I'm Gwen Ifill. Thank you and good night.

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The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer Monday, June 7, 2004