The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MacNeil: Good evening. I'm Robert MacNeil in New York.

MS. WOODRUFF: And I'm Judy Woodruff in Washington. After our summary of the news this Thursday, we have excerpts of President- elect Clinton's first news conference since the election, then homosexuals in the military. We profile a high ranking officer who was discharged and two former officers debate Mr. Clinton's promise to overturn the ban on gays in uniform. Finally, we have a Newsmaker interview with a United Nations envoy who resigned after trying to coordinate relief for starving Somalia. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: President-elect Clinton today held his first full news conference since his election victory. He said economic growth would be his top priority, and he would ask Congress for tax breaks to create jobs. He appointed Harvard Prof. Robert Reich to head his economic transition team, and also named transition chiefs for domestic policy, health care, and national security. Gov. Clinton was asked what he planned to do about two Bush administration policies, the so-called gag rule on abortion counseling and the repatriation of Haitian boat people. He spoke at the old State House in Little Rock.

PRESIDENT-ELECT BILL CLINTON: Well, I have made up my mind I'm going to change the policy in both areas. I don't believe in the gag rule, and I think it should be repealed. And with regard to the Haitians, I think my position on that has been pretty clear all along. I believe that there is a legitimate distinction between political and economic refugees, but I think that we should have a process in which these Haitians get a chance to make their case. I think that the blanket sending them back to Haiti under the circumstances which have prevailed for the year was an error. And so I will modify that process. I'm not in a position now to tell you exactly how we're going to do it, or what the specifics will be, but I can tell you I'm going to change the policy.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Clinton said he planned to issue strict ethics rules for his transition team tomorrow. He said similar rules for his administration would follow. We'll have an extended excerpt for the President-elect's news conference after this news summary. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: At the news conference, Mr. Clinton was asked how quickly he would lift the Pentagon ban on homosexuals in the military. He said he wanted to consult with many people to determine an appropriate course of action, but he said thousands of homosexuals have served in the military with honor, and he mentioned the case of 30-year-old Keith Meinhold, who was reinstated by the Navy today. Meinhold had been kicked out in August, after revealing he was gay. His reinstatement came after a federal court order. He spoke with reporters as he arrived this morning at Moffett Naval Air Station in California.

PETTY OFFICER KEITH MEINHOLD, U.S. Navy: I think this is a day I've looked forward to. I think we have a little history on our hands that gays and lesbians will be able to serve openly in the military and not worry about somebody persecuting them because of who they are, and that the military in general will benefit from that. It'll be a much healthier atmosphere for everybody.

MS. WOODRUFF: The government will again contest his reinstatement at a hearing on Monday. We'll have more on gays in the military later in the program.

MR. MacNeil: The number of Americans filing new unemployment claims fell to the lowest level in more than two years last week. The Labor Department said first-time claims dropped to 355,000 during the final week of October. States reporting the largest decreases were Ohio, Missouri, and New York.

MS. WOODRUFF: Shiite Muslim guerrillas in South Lebanon attacked Israeli troops and U.N. peacekeepers today. The fighting came despite Israel's largest armored build-up in the region in seven years. One U.N. peacekeeper was killed and three others wounded when a guerilla rocket struck their position inside Israel's self- declared security zone. Three Israelis were hurt in a separate attack on their position. Israeli tanks and artillery responded by firing on several guerrilla strongholds outside the security zone. Muslim extremists attacked another group of tourists in Egypt today. Five Germans and two Egyptians were wounded were gunmen ambushed a tour bus in the Southern city of Kina. It was the 11th attack against tourists since June. The terrorists want to replace Egypt's secular government with an Islamic state.

MR. MacNeil: The former leader of communist East Germany, Eric Honecker, went on trial today in Berlin. He is charged, along with five co-defendants, in the killings of East Germans attempting to flee to the West. Some of the victims were shot at the Berlin Wall, which was put up under Honecker's supervision in 1961. Armed bandits ambushed a food convoy in Somalia today, killing at least four people. The 34-truck convoy was headed for Baidoa, one of the towns hardest hit by the country's famine and civil war. Guards saved most of the American grain it was carrying, but nearly all the trucks were forced to turn back. The four victims were workers for CARE International. A spokesman for the relief organization said it would continue overland food shipments, but security would be re-examined before another was sent. We'll talk with the former head of the United Nations relief operation in Somalia later in the program.

MS. WOODRUFF: Tap dance great Charles "Honey" Coles died today of cancer at his home in New York. Coles, seen here on the left, with longtime partner Cholly Atkins, was known for an especially elegant tap style. Lena Horne once said he made butterflies clumsy. He was a hero and mentor to generations of dancers, but it was just nine years ago that he won wide public acclaim and a Tony Award for his performance in Broadway's "My One and Only." He was 81. That's it for the News Summary. Just ahead on the NewsHour, President- elect Clinton meets the press, the argument over permitting gays in the military, and a Newsmaker interview on the famine in Somalia. FOCUS - TAKING QUESTIONS

MR. MacNeil: We begin tonight with extended excerpts from Bill Clinton's news conference in Little Rock. For 40 minutes, the President-elect fielded questions on a wide range of topics, including how long a honeymoon he expected to have with the Republican opposition in Congress, specifically with Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole.

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: I think that the American people hope that I have a honeymoon, not for me, but for them, if a honeymoon means a break in partisan political behavior and an honest attempt by people of good will to reach agreement on something that's good for the country. I had a good talk with Sen. Dole on the phone yesterday. I'm looking forward when I go to Washington next week to see President Bush, I'm also looking forward to a meeting, a bipartisan meeting with the leadership in Congress, and I'm going to hold out the hand of cooperation to them, and I think that they will extend it in turn. I think that the clear mandate of this election, by the way, from the American people, was an end to politics as usual, an end to the gridlock in Washington, an end to finger pointing and blame. I think there is no question that there was a mandate in this election. In terms of whether I got a mandate or not, you know, having a hundred vote electoral majority more than you need is not too bad. There are only a couple of Democrats in this century who have gotten a bigger percentage vote, but arguably, the greatest President we ever had, Abraham Lincoln, was elected with under 40 percent of the vote. So I think the American people will all now evaluate what I do and whether I do it well, and whether they support it.

ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC News: Do you think that you'll have to scale back, to follow up Gene's question, your legislative agenda to avoid the kind of experience Jimmy Carter had by putting up so much legislation so quickly that he ended up with a bottleneck?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, one of the things I think it is important to do is to set priorities and to proceed with discipline. I think that, that there are some clear priorities that we have to pursue. We have to have a program for economic growth, job creation, short and long-term. We have to have a clear plan for deficit reduction over the next four years. We have to have a plan to deal with the exploding cost of health care, and the fact that a hundred thousand Americans a month are losing their coverage, something that is ballooning the Medicare budgets of this state and virtually every other one in the country, and we have to have a plan for political reform, something I campaigned on and I believe in, and I'm going to do my best to pass a national service program. I think those are the things we have to focus on. I think we have to proceed with real discipline. But I think the American people want America to get its house in order and want this economy to start working again, and that's what I'll focus on. Yeah.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN, New York Times: [inaudible] -- about what the Clinton foreign policy would be. I wondered if you could tell us, what will be your first hundred days' plan in foreign policy, and what are the attributes you'll be looking for in a Secretary of State and in a National Security Adviser?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, I think I have laid out my foreign policy in great detail and with clear specificity. I've certainly tried to. And I believe that I spoke more to foreign policy than anybody else running in the Democratic primary at least and arguably more than my opponents in the general election.

REPORTER: What will be your top priority?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, my top priorities would be settling on a multi-year plan for a defense budget that I think keeps the defense of this country the strongest in the world and deals with the necessity to announce that, pursuing our continued efforts to reduce nuclear weapons with Russia and with other nuclear powers, working hard to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, nuclear, biological, and chemical, keeping the Middle East peace process on track and doing whatever I can to make sure there is no break in continuity, and doing what I can to strengthen the global economic growth in terms of resolving outstanding matters with Mexico, hopefully resolving outstanding issues within Europe, and proceeding with the cooperative strategy with other major economic powers to promote global growth, something which will help us very much.

REPORTER: The second half of the question.

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, I want a Secretary of State who understands that we have obligations of continuity and obligations of change, and that basically the pillars of our national security and foreign policy ought to be a different but still very strong defense, a commitment to global growth in the economic regeneration here, and the fulfilling of our responsibility as the world's sole superpower to try to promote the democracy and freedom and restrain the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. I want someone that I think really understands that and can relate well to those issues and to the people around the world dealing with that, and in terms of a National Security Adviser, I want the same thing. I want people -- by the way, I do think that Mr. -- President Bush's group worked pretty well as a team in that area, and that's something that I want. I'm very much committed to picking a National Security Adviser, a Secretary of Defense, and a Secretary of State who can work together on this, this agenda. I think that's what I ought to be doing.

TOM SHERWOOD, WRC-TV: -- gays and lesbians in the military -- you're getting some heat for it now. You're getting pressure to do it in January three days after you take office. How quickly are you going to move?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: I think that, first of all, I'm going to move forward on that.

TOM SHERWOOD: A hundred-day agenda?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Let me tell you what I'm going to do. What -- my concern here is to do it in a way that is most appropriate for the management of the whole national security and military interests of the country. I want to consult with a lot of people about what our options are, including the people who may disagree with me about the ultimate merits. Let me just remind you one more time of how this all came up. This whole issue really came to light when Sec. of Defense Cheney was asked to comment on a study which said that there were many thousands of men and women who were homosexuals in the military forces who served our country with great distinction and never did anything in their conduct that was destructive of the moral or the purpose of the military. And I think he referred to this rule as an old chestnut, or something of that kind. What I want to do is to come up with an appropriate response that will focus sharply on the fact that we do have people who are homosexuals who served our country with distinction who were never kicked out of the military. Others are being kicked out of the military, one of whom has just been reinstated by a court, and that the issue ought to be conduct, has anybody done anything which would disqualify them, whether it's Tailhook scandal or something else, and so what I plan to do in an appropriate fashion, in a prompt fashion, is put together a group of people and let them advise me about how we might best do this. But I'm not going to change my position on it. Go ahead.

JOHN KING, Associated Press: You spoke often in the campaign of the nine to ten million unemployed Americans. Can you tell us specifically what in your 100-day plan will bring jobs to them, a specific job program, and when they can expect to see those jobs?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, we will have at least two things in this plan which should create jobs in the short run, that is, in this calendar year. First of all, I will ask the Congress to adopt an investment tax credit that I have been advocating for well over a year now to give the private sector incentives to go out and invest in new plant and equipment and to increase their capacity to hire. We had -- the proposal -- the specific proposal I put in my plan we had an independent consulting firm evaluate, and they said that they believe that that one proposal, just the investment tax credit, would create 1/2 million private sector jobs in the first year alone, just that one proposal. The second thing that we will do is to try to accelerate the investment of our country in infrastructure in terms of road projects, water projects, other projects of that kind that are already on line with the plans there and ready to go in the first year with the commitment that I have to transfer defense cuts into domestic investment, so I want to try to increase transportation funding and those kinds of things to put people to work, and they have a lot of spinoff job creation, so I think those are two specific things. There will be more which we'll be talking about during the course of this transition, but those are two.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN: Governor, you've suggested you want to spend a lot of money for infrastructure. You proposed earlier $20 billion, but many economists think that's not enough, 50 billion may be necessary. Won't that dramatically increase the deficit as you're trying to create jobs? How do you balance these, and secondly, are you beginning to feel overwhelmed by the enormity of the responsibilities you now have?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: No. I'm having a wonderful time. I mean, it is an enormous responsibility, but I asked for it, and it is an indulgence to feel overwhelmed by it. It's like everything else. If you get up every day and go to work and put one foot in front of the other, I mean, some nights when we finish -- last night we finished after 11 -- and we sit around and think this is overwhelming, you know, but, but it is in the nature of democratic government that most people can do most jobs if they summon their best effort. And I'm just going to give you my best effort every day. Now, let me answer your question, that the major debating point among all the economists about what to do with the economy now is just that. You know, do you -- there was a crowd -- there is the group that says, go ahead and make big cuts in the deficit now, because a few years from now you'll bring down interest rates even though it will actually drive up unemployment, slow the economy more, and then there's a group that says, spend more money now, either by putting more money into construction projects or by having a huge tax cut, and then there's -- you know, my position is, and we're going to have a chance, we'll test it, we'll see if I'm right, that's what the election was about. I believe that what we have to do is to have a disciplined reduction in the debt, so we send a clear signal to the markets at home and abroad that we're going to bring this deficit down, but that we do it more gradually, and with a frame work which permits us to substantially increase investment. You see, I believe that we cannot balance this budget ever unless we can get more economic growth than we've got. I think if you look at this anemic growth and anemic employment, and the anemic tax receipts, you're never going to get to a position where the budget is in balance unless you grow the economy, but, on the other hand, to ignore the deficit is a great mistake. So I'm going to pursue my course, which is increase investment, gradual but disciplined reduction of the deficit; we'll see if it works.

ED RABEL, NBC News: Governor, are you satisfied with the way in which President Bush has handled the State Department probe into your background during the campaign, or do you think more needs to be done?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, I'm glad Ms. Tamposi had to leave her job about six weeks early. I thought that was an appropriate thing to do. I don't know that I know enough to give you a final judgment, but let me just say this: If I catch anybody using the State Department like that when I'm President, you won't have to wait till after the election to see him gone. I don't want to talk about what happened in the past election. It's over. We don't have a minute to waste looking at it. I just want you to know the State Department of this country is not going to be fooling with Bill Clinton's politics, and if I catch anybody doing it, I will fire them the next day. They won't have to have an inquiry or rigmarole or anything else, because that is -- it is too important to me that the rest of the world see us as having a coherent and as much as possible non-political foreign policy. I have -- and let me say you will see that I've gone out of my way since I was elected to support the idea that President Bush is our President, that he makes foreign policy, and that we're all going to stick with it until there is a change. And this is a part of that to me.

KENT JARRELL, WUSA-TV: Little Rock is not Washington, and you've faced increased security as President-elect --

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Thank goodness.

KENT JARRELL: -- and you've also faced increased media scrutiny. Will we see you on the streets of Washington a lot jogging, and are you frustrated by the bubble?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Well, I'm a little bit. You know, I'm a real sort of informal person. I live in an atmosphere that is highly personal and informal where I know my friends and neighbors, and my constituents can come up to me and talk to me on the street, but I would hope that both Sen. Gore and I would be able to maintain some greater level of ongoing personal contact with folks than is typically the case. Now I know there are security concerns, and we've talked to the Secret Service about that, and I have no criticism of them. I think they do a fine job. But I think that one of the reasons we made this campaign a success is because we went out of our way to demonstrate, both of us together and separately, that we could be genuinely accessible to the American people, and that we were interested in them, and I think that there are a lot of things you do in your own personal habits which send that signal out. So I hope I'll be able to it; may not.

MR. MacNeil: Still ahead on the NewsHour, a debate on gays in the military and a Newsmaker interview on the famine in Somalia. FOCUS - GAYS IN THE MILITARY

MS. WOODRUFF: On two fronts, from the next President and in the courts, a major change is likely in a policy that arouses great emotion in the military, the ban on homosexuals serving in uniform. As we just heard, President-elect Clinton repeated today that he would follow through on a campaign promise to do away with that ban. And in California, a federal court has ruled, at least temporarily, that the ban is unconstitutional. Navy Petty Officer Keith Meinhold was restored to duty today under that court order. Our look at the issue begins with this report from Correspondent Greg Hirakawa of public station KCTS in Seattle.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Margarethe Cammermeyer now gets an extra free Sunday every month. She spends it like this, having brunch with her family. Until last summer, the army colonel was spending one weekend a month at military drills as chief nurse of the Washington National Guard. She says she'd give up this family affair in a minute if she could put on her army uniform and report for duty.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER, U.S. Army [Ret.]: See, I have it ready to go just, just in case, you know.

MR. HIRAKAWA: But that won't happen. After 27 years in the military, Col. Cammermeyer was drummed out for being homosexual. Col. Cammermeyer was a decorated Vietnam veteran. She recently received her doctorate in nursing from the University of Washington. She had been called by many a model soldier on her way to becoming a general. Instead, she became the highest ranking member of the military forced to resign for being gay.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: [June 1992] I gave everything that I could to the military in uniform, and upon my discharge today will continue to do everything that I can to place value in the lives of so many people who have already sacrificed their careers and hope that there can be truly the equality that is part of what the American way of life is all about.

RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Good morning. You're on Project Extra Effort with Col. Margarethe Cammermeyer.

MR. HIRAKAWA: The Colonel has now become a vocal critic of the Pentagon's ban on homosexuals. On talk shows across the country, she debates callers who say gays and lesbians would undermine military order.

FEMALE CALLER: And you have to look over your shoulder every step you take.

RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Oh, really, why?

FEMALE CALLER: Because you have to go all the way into the shower with your robe. You have to wonder.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: I think that this is an example of where sexual orientation and inappropriate sexual behavior have gotten confused.

MR. HIRAKAWA: In her battle to change military policy, the Colonel takes her share of criticism, as she did on her last day in uniform from a former air force pilot and his wife.

FORMER AIR FORCE PILOT: You're trying to cause problems.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: I'm trying to enlighten.

FORMER AIR FORCE PILOT'S WIFE: My husband spent 30 years in the air force, 30 years of his life, to protect our country from people like you.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: No, that's not what he was protecting it from.

FORMER AIR FORCE PILOT'S WIFE: I feel like vomiting.

FORMER AIR FORCE PILOT: I flew for 30 years and flew in Vietnam. I flew in Europe. What have you done?

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: I served in Vietnam.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Coming out has caused problems for the Colonel in public, but it created barely a ripple with her four sons. Two of them live at home. The Colonel says she became aware of her sexual orientation after becoming a wife and mother. Eldest son Matt, here with his wife, said the problem for him hasn't been his mom's revelation, it has been the military and its policy against gays. MATTHEW HAWKEN: She wasn't trying to hide something. She could have

very easily, very easily -- she could have lied about it. I'm sure it's happened before, and I, I -- she was in a catch-22, and I, I would have to say that I'm proud of her that she didn't lie. Okay. She would rather take the hard road.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Col. Cammermeyer's military career began in 1961 as a second lieutenant in the army student nurse corps at the University of Maryland. Three years after graduation, she was promoted to captain. Her then husband, also an army officer, was given the honor of pinning on her captain's bars. In 1967, she volunteered for duty at the 24th Evacuation Hospital in Vietnam. She served as head nurse in the hospital's intensive care unit. She was later awarded the Bronze Star for her performance during the Tete Offensive. She was promoted through the ranks to full colonel. And in 1989, she applied to become the chief nurse for the army National Guard. The job would have earned her a general's star and a Pentagon assignment. During a routine security check, investigators asked her about her sexual orientation. Her answer she is a lesbian prompted military interviewers to repeatedly ask her to recant.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER:I was given many opportunities to discuss further my statement of whether or not there was any duress at the time I made that, whether I wanted to retract it. That was sort of not made explicit, but rather that were there any problems at the time.

MR. HIRAKAWA: You could figure out what they were trying to make you say?

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: I think so.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Okay. Why didn't you take them up on it?

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: Because it wouldn't have been honest.

MR. HIRAKAWA: The Washington National Guard then had no other choice.

LT. COL. JOSEPH JIMENEZ, Washington State National Guard: Both of us do clearly understand that we do not accept homosexuality in the military services.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Lt. Col. Joseph Jimenez is chief spokesman for the Washington State Guard.

LT. COL. JOSEPH JIMENEZ: It's difficult for both Col. Cammermeyer and us here who know her and have worked with her. Yet, on the other hand, there are many things that we have to live with in the military that are difficult for us to understand and accept that we have no choice on, but because we choose to be in the military, we also choose to follow those rules and policies.

MR. HIRAKAWA: In her battle against the military and public criticism, Col. Cammermeyer is careful to present a dignified image. She refused to take part in Seattle's annual Gay Pride March. She did address a receptive audience later at a park rally.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: I guess one of the things that I have hoped to convey is the similarities that we all have with people who are not homosexual. It is much more the things that will draw us all together, those things that we have in common, rather than those things that make us different. [applause]

MR. HIRAKAWA: The Colonel has also filed a federal lawsuit, hoping to overturn the military regulation. In two other cases involving homosexuals dismissed from the service, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, which covers the Pacific Northwest, has already ruled against the military. Attorney James Lobsenz, who won one of the cases, believes the Colonel's case could further erode the military's ban on gays and lesbians.

JAMES LOBSENZ, Attorney: No one can quarrel with the fact that the service she has given to the country has been outstanding. And with that going for her, combining that with what I hope and believe is a slowly evolving trend among people at large, including judges, to question this, this policy of excluding homosexuals from the military, it's a powerful package together.

MR. HIRAKAWA: The blanket policy also troubles a retired general, who commanded all the ground troops in Operation Desert Storm. Lt. Gen. Calvin Waller is now an environmental engineer in Seattle. He supports the military's ban on gays, saying homosexuals should not be allowed in combat, but says they are suitable for support roles, as women in the military have proven to be.

LT. GEN. CALVIN WALLER, U.S. Army [Ret.]: I think that, you know, women proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they could do this extremely well, and not only in Desert Shield and in Desert Storm, but in every day and every walk of life where women are doing such great jobs in the military. So I don't see any reason why homosexuals in some cases shouldn't do that as long as they are not disrupting the good law or in discipline of those organizations.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: I really do believe that each time there was a major change in the regulations in the past where women were allowed to be in the military, where women were allowed tohave children and be in the military, where blacks became part of the larger military and integration took place, each time there was a change in policy it takes a little time and a little learning and a little openness to find out that the preconceived prejudices that we had were really unfounded.

MR. HIRAKAWA: If, in fact, the regulation was changed tomorrow and you were asked to come back to the military, you would go back, right?

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: Yes.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Why? And these are the people who drummed you out.

COL. MARGARETHE CAMMERMEYER: No, they haven't drummed me out. It's a regulation that's drummed me out, a regulation 50 years old, archaic then but based on the knowledge that we had then and that needs to change now. I still love the military. I mean, I love what it stands for. I love having served on it, having been a nurse in combat and feeling that part of my identity is as, as a soldier.

MR. HIRAKAWA: Despite her dismissal from the military, Col. Cammermeyer still cares for soldiers as a civilian at a Veterans Administration Hospital, located near her former base. The Colonel says she has not regretted speaking out or coming out. Her life, she adds, has changed little over the past three years. She says after telling the world she is a Lesbian, few people, aside from the military, really seem to care.

MS. WOODRUFF: We now get the views of two former military officers on this controversy and on how the transition should be handled if and when the ban is listed. Roscoe Robinson is a retired four star army general and was commander of the 82nd Airborne Division in the 1970s. His last assignment was U.S. military representative to NATO. He was hired from the military in 1990 and is currently a private businessman. Tanya Domi served 15 years in the army and left with the rank of captain. She has been a defense policy analyst in the House of Representatives and is currently the legislative director for the group The National Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Veterans of America. Gen. Robinson, is Gov. Clinton's decision to lift the ban on gays, on homosexuals in the military, the correct decision?

GEN. ROBINSON: I would hope that he would give much consideration. He's already decided he's going to do it, but in my view, the policy as it stands is the correct one, and I would like to see it maintained. I was encouraged by the governor's remarks during his press conference this afternoon when he said that he would rely on consultation with a number of people and get their views on what should be done and how it should be done. I was also encouraged when the governor made the comment that he believed in a strong military, and I would hope that he would do nothing that would cause any disruption in our military. We have the finest military today than we have ever had, and that was amply demonstrated during the Gulf crisis, and I would certainly hope that nothing would be done that would cause disruption.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why do you think it's the wrong decision on his part?

GEN. ROBINSON: Well, I just believe that morale has to be considered, and I think this is a factor.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why do you think it would disturb morale in the military?

GEN. ROBINSON: The military is a different lifestyle than what we find in most organizations, close living, especially in the combat arms, which I am most familiar with, and I just believe that if there are problems or concerns about behavior of someone in a squad or in a platoon that it might be very disruptive.

MS. WOODRUFF: Ms. Domi, how do you respond to those kinds of concerns on the part of so many in the military, and retired military, like Gen. Robinson, who feel this is just the wrong way to go?

MS. DOMI: I respect their, their position. They have served and served well, and with great loyalty and patriotism, just as thousands and thousands of gay and lesbian veterans in this country. It's not an issue of integrating us. We're already there. It is an issue of lifting government sanctions, bigotry that has lasted nearly 50 years. And so I believe that the President-elect's decision to go forward and sign the executive order is truly in the best interest of not only the country but in national security and defense of our nation.

MS. WOODRUFF: What about Gen. Robinson's point, a point that's bee made by others, that the military lifestyle is different, that there are close quarters, that if there's any problem with I think as you put it conduct, you could undermine morale, undermine the unity of the forces?

MS. DOMI: Well, there is always a lot of concern about morale when you start talking about misconduct, and we are not advocating that misconduct should be overlooked. We, in fact, are saying, let's do it and let's do it with parity and equity. Misconduct has clearly been a problem in the Navy, for example, with Tailhook, which I do believe, and many would agree, that it was detrimental to good order and discipline.

MS. WOODRUFF: And Gov. Clinton mentioned that today. Gen. Robinson, what about that? I mean, the distinction Gov. Clinton made today was not sexual preference. He said what's important here is conduct.

GEN. ROBINSON: I agree.

MS. WOODRUFF: And I understand Ms. Domi to be making the same point.

GEN. ROBINSON: Yes. And I would agree. It is the conduct that we are concerned about, but when you start talking about conduct, you're also talking about behavior, and behavior can have an impact upon conduct not just from the person who might be gay but from the person who would know that someone else is gay because they've announced that and so forth, and it could cause some problem.

MS. WOODRUFF: What do you mean?

GEN. ROBINSON: It could cause some harassment that we certainly do not want to see. That could be one of the disruptive parts of the equation that I'm talking about.

MS. WOODRUFF: But what about -- do you want to respond to that?

MS. DOMI: Sure. What I'd like to say is, you know, there is a lot of concern about morale and about disruptment, but I would say this, that the most effective way to combat harassment or attitudes between heterosexuals and homosexuals is to set the finest, most positive leadership example. And I know that Gen. Robinson clearly knows that when leaders set the example, the troops fall in line. In accordance with that, we have to set up training and education programs. And I would agree that, with the General that consultating with the generals and with the senior leadership is not only important, it has to happen. We have to get around a table and sit together and talk and work this out.

MS. WOODRUFF: Gen. Robinson, is it not at all reassuring to you in considering this whole issue that you do have apparently thousands of homosexuals -- we don't know the number, of course - - who are in the military now and who are going about their business in apparently a normal way, because, you know, as we know, if, if it were announced, it were made known publicly that they were homosexual, they would be discharged --

GEN. ROBINSON: Yes.

MS. WOODRUFF: -- but does that -- does the fact -- does not that fact reassure you in some way?

GEN. ROBINSON: I think the fact is that once one goes public, then that's where the problems come about.

MS. WOODRUFF: You mean because of the behavior of the person who is homosexual, or because of the behavior of --

GEN. ROBINSON: Both, both. The behavior of the homosexual, but just as importantly the behavior toward that homosexual by others.

MS. WOODRUFF: But what are you suggesting that a homosexual individual might do because it is made public? What is it that concerns you?

GEN. ROBINSON: Well, I would hope that if it's made public and the ban stands that that would not be a problem. If it is made public, then I agree with Ms. Domi that we have a real education program ahead of us that must be addressed by the leadership, and I agree that good leadership solves these kinds of problems, but it's a -- it's a problem that I don't think we need to have for our services today, especially as we are facing lots of problems concerning downsizing of personnel, loss of budget dollars, and still trying to maintain the readiness that we need in order to keep that number one defense that the President-elect talked about today.

MS. WOODRUFF: What about that point?

MS. DOMI: Well, any time there's change, there is always concern about a drop in combat efficiency, combat proficiency. Change is always difficult, but change will come. That is inevitable. The Department of Defense will downsize and women apparently will gain maybe perhaps a greater role, and when you add in gays and lesbians, there is going to be a small disruption and maybe in some instances it could be traumatic for some people, but the fact of the matter is get the leadership on board. I would encourage the President-elect to get the generals up to the White House, seek out their assistance, hear what they have to say, bring in the adjutants, and let's get down to business and work it out.

MS. WOODRUFF: How difficult do you think that's going to be, Gen. Robinson, to get the leadership in the military on board?

GEN. ROBINSON: Well, first of all, in the military we are used to once a decision is made to saluting and getting on and solving the problem. As I said, I hope we never reach that point.

MS. WOODRUFF: But we've read in the last few days quotes from individuals --

GEN. ROBINSON: Yes.

MS. WOODRUFF: -- who said there are going to be mass resignations once this is --

GEN. ROBINSON: Well, I don't -- I wouldn't speculate that far, but, you know, Adm. Crowe, who has been an adviser to Gov. Clinton during his campaign, has stated that --

MS. WOODRUFF: This is a former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

GEN. ROBINSON: Former chairman. The current chairman, Gen. Colin Powell, has also stated that the policy should continue.

MS. WOODRUFF: Not change.

GEN. ROBINSON: It should not change, and I just think that -- I hope that the President-elect listens to these people, but I would point out that if the decision is made, I would hope that we could work out a good methodology for implementing it. The military is used to doing that.

MS. WOODRUFF: Ms. Domi, how soon, in your view, does this need to happen in order for fairness to exist?

MS. DOMI: Well, I think that a lot of people are sitting and waiting and wondering when is it going to happen. It is a big, it dominates conversation now among active duty people. We have been contacted by active duty people that are gay and lesbians, and I think the sooner the better if, in fact, he is going to do it. He did make a campaign promise that he would do it in the first 100 days. I think now with Petty Officer Keith Meinhold's case pending in the court and so much discussion about it, I think the sooner the better, the earlier the better.

MS. WOODRUFF: All right. Well, general --

GEN. ROBINSON: But I would also point out that the implementation is something that cannot be rushed into, and I think you would agree with that.

MS. DOMI: I think the implementation process is going to take eighteen to twenty-four months, and it's going to be intense work.

MS. WOODRUFF: All right. Well, Ms. Domi and Gen. Robinson, we thank you both for being with us. NEWSMAKER - SOMALIA

MR. MacNeil: Finally tonight, we have a Newsmaker interview with the diplomat supervising the United Nations rescue operation in Somalia who quit in frustration two weeks ago. When he resigned as U.N. envoy, special U.N. envoy, Algerian diplomat Mohamed Sahnoun criticized the United Nations for lethargy and said the U.N. bureaucracy had prevented the fast action needed to deal with the famine. I talked with Amb. Sahnoun this afternoon.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Ambassador, thank you for joining us. Since you resigned two weeks ago, have your criticisms of U.N. lethargy produced any results?

AMB. SAHNOUN: Well, they had produced results before. I was not the only one actually to make this criticism. There are some foreign dignitaries who came and visited Somalia and witnessed by themselves the shortcomings of this assistance, and, therefore, my criticism and that's why agencies have come to Somalia and are now working, most of them.

MR. MacNeil: Is lethargy still the correct description of the way the U.N. is responding in Somalia?

AMB. SAHNOUN: There's been a slow response. There's been a slow response, and in view of the very tragic situation in Somalia must be maybe the worst human tragedy in recent history. In view of the needs, in view of the responsibility, which I think the international community has towards Somalia that response was indeed slow.

MR. MacNeil: And is still?

AMB. SAHNOUN: It is much better now.

MR. MacNeil: Tell us what exactly is wrong. Thirty-five hundred troops have been authorized to go there to protect the food supplies. Yet, only five hundred have gone in two months. The first five hundred that went sat there for a month and did nothing because their equipment hadn't arrived. What's wrong? Why aren't the rest going there quickly and guarding the, and guarding the food?

AMB. SAHNOUN: Well, the operation, itself, the operational activities of the United Nations take time in situations such as the response for humanitarian operation or the protection of humanitarian assistance. It's not the same as in peacekeeping operations where you have to try to intervene between the warring factions. Here it was at least to protect the supplies, to protect the staff, and to protect the equipment of the people involved in the humanitarian assistance. And unfortunately, the response takes time. There is no feel of urgency and it took us two months to bring the Pakistani troops from the time we signed the agreement to the time they finally reached there. It is a long time, and meanwhile, things change in the field. People change their mind and the situation itself changes, and you need more than 500 ultimately.

MR. MacNeil: Is the Secretary General, Mr. Boutras Boutras-Gali, is he waiting for other members, or for members of the United Nations Security Council like the United States to prod him? Does he need clearer instructions or more direction from the membership to do more, or does he have adequate direction from the membership?

AMB. SAHNOUN: The Security Council has taken a decision concerning the budgetary provision, concerning the number of the troops to be deployed.

MR. MacNeil: The 3500?

AMB. SAHNOUN: The 3500, yes, that is already cleared by the Security Council. It's a question of having the agreement of the faction chiefs in the field, in the country, and also getting the countries which are providing the troops to send them quickly enough to the areas.

MR. MacNeil: Has the point been reached that the United Nations and its members collectively should get tougher with the faction chiefs? I know you spent many months there negotiating with them for their agreement to let troops intervene and protect the supplies and so on. It was a very frustrating business, but you were applauded generally for doing it very skillfully. But is it now time for the U.N. to get tougher with the faction chiefs, and not to let them block this operation?

AMB. SAHNOUN: The need to be, to be tough should always be there. A faction chief's activity, look after their interest and the interest of the factions, they do not always perceive human tragedy, unfortunately, which is the tragedy of their own people, the way they should, and after all, one should sometimes force them to look at the situation and, if necessary, hold them responsible of what amounts to be genocide, and, therefore, if need be, yes, one should be tough. And I have myself been in my discussion and my negotiation with them and I've threatened sometimes that we would leave some areas and we might resort to force to certainly save thousands of children from, from death. But I think certainly the United Nations needs to be tough.

MR. MacNeil: For instance, one of the leading faction chiefs, one of the warlords so far, Mohamad Farah Adide -- am I pronouncing his name correctly, Adide --

AMB. SAHNOUN: Yes.

MR. MacNeil: -- is demanding today that the Pakistanis, who have just taken over at Mogadishu Airport, leave the airport. Now, should the U.N. stand up to him and say no way, our troops are going to stay at the airport?

AMB. SAHNOUN: Well, I believe we have had this kind of position for some time, and, in fact, he didn't even want the troops to be, to be residing where they are now, between the airport and the port. I had to negotiate it in, and it was a very difficult discussion. Finally, I forced him to accept that the troops would be staying there and be deployed on time, and he will certainly try to play games, and I think we should not accept these.

MR. MacNeil: Not accept the games. The U.N., of course, is very careful, by the nature of this charter, not to infringe sovereignty. It's one thing to go in when you're invited to separate warring factions, or it's another thing to go in when, as they did in the Gulf, when there's aggression across the border, very insensitive not to infringe sovereignty, but you said on this program last month by law, general understanding of law, you have to protect someone who's committing suicide. Is it time for the United Nations to change the rules or interpret the rules differently, and say, this is a case where the world community should insist on going in, whether the faction chiefs particularly want them or not, and go in such strength that they would intimidate the faction chiefs?

AMB. SAHNOUN: We are now in a situation after the Cold War and the post Cold War period where some of these rules and some of these notions are certainly not any more important as they used to be, and in view of the human tragedy which we are facing, it's very difficult to stick to rules which certainly are obsolete, and, therefore, if there is a need to go in with force, one should do it to save millions of people from starvation and disease and death.

MR. MacNeil: Is the Secretary General being forceful enough in this situation?

AMB. SAHNOUN: Well, I believe that --

MR. MacNeil: I know you annoyed him by your criticism earlier, but you're not employed by him any longer.

AMB. SAHNOUN: That's right.

MR. MacNeil: Is he -- is he taking a forceful leadership position in this?

AMB. SAHNOUN: I believe that it's not only he. It is he and the Security Council members. He has to be supported in whatever decision or move he makes by the Security Council, so it's really a common decision, he, as the administration of the United Nations, proposing to do something, but also the support of all the members of the Security Council.

MR. MacNeil: Are they not giving it?

AMB. SAHNOUN: I believe they are now in the process of accepting these as maybe a new philosophy, a new kind of vision.

MR. MacNeil: And do you expect, I mean, is any one country or any group of countries taking the lead in that at the moment, in urging that -- I'm just thinking, we do -- we have done, like many other television programs, week after week, after week, the most heart rending pictures and descriptions of the reality there, and one gathers that the American people feel very compassionate about this, but nothing happens. And as you and others have said, a thousand people die every die and nothing happens. You were very frustrated and angry about it, yourself. But what do you feel now about it? Is anybody taking any leadership to push it?

AMB. SAHNOUN: A few things happened in terms of at least the humanitarian assistance, itself. We have increased the level of humanitarian assistance. We have started with already a few hundred tons of food coming to Somalia eight months ago. Now we have about 30,000 metric tons come in every month. There is a change in the situation, and most of it is deliberate, and most of it goes to the needy. There are, there is an area, a specific area in Somalia, Southwest of Somalia, where unfortunately there are still hundreds of people dying every day, and there is a need there to come in with, if necessary, a tough way and, and somehow control the region for a while and deliver the food to the people so that they can stand on their feet and start working, which is what they are asking themselves. Their leaders have approached us and told us, please come and help us. And the objection of some few faction chiefs should not stop us.

MR. MacNeil: How long would you expect if the negotiations are going on the way they're going, how long would you expect it to be before there is an adequate force there and the warlords understand that they can't steal the food and hijack the convoys anymore, and just have to let the food get through? How long will that be?

AMB. SAHNOUN: In Somalia, things can fluctuate very quickly, can change very quickly. In fact, the faction chiefs themselves are being challenged by all their chiefs around them, and sometimes lose ground. One has to know when to seize opportunity to come in and try to exploit a situation where a specific faction chief is in a weak position, and one has then the support not only of the other faction chiefs but all the population.

MR. MacNeil: Does it make a difference in the sovereignty issue that the faction chiefs are not a legitimate government of Somalia, they're just people who've taken power in various areas, themselves? Does that, does that weakenthe argument that the U.N. can't intervene because it would be infringing sovereignty?

AMB. SAHNOUN: Definitely it does. The problem here is not really whether there is the prospect of sovereignty, which is being infringed or not. It is the ability of the factions to, to frustrate any kind of intervention by their violent opposition to the deployment of troops. That is really the question. That's so much here the rule of sovereignty.

MR. MacNeil: Well, Mr. Ambassador, thank you very much for joining us.

AMB. SAHNOUN: Thank you. RECAP

MS. WOODRUFF: Again, the main stories of this Thursday, President-elect Clinton held his post-election news conference. He said economic growth would be his top priority and said he would ask Congress to pass tax breaks aimed at creating new jobs. He also said he would overturn several Bush administration policies, including the so-called "gag rule" on abortion counseling, the forced repatriation of Haitian boat people, and the prohibition against homosexuals in the military. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Judy. That's the NewsHour tonight, and we'll be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.