The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, a summary of the day's developments, including the two new suspected deaths from anthrax; a look at the military strategy on the ground in Afghanistan; a report on the dragnet in the United States for September 11 suspects; and a Roger Rosenblatt essay about fear.

NEWS SUMMARY

JIM LEHRER: Two postal workers in Washington died of anthrax-like symptoms; two others were hospitalized with the same inhaled form of the disease. Tom Ridge, director of homeland security, confirmed that today. All four worked at the facility that handled the tainted letter sent last week to Senate Majority Leader Daschle. But it was not yet known whether they came in contact with the letter. The two deaths were still being investigated. In Afghanistan today, U.S. planes attacked front-line Taliban troops for a second day, outside Kabul, and a key northern city. At the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said the purpose was to help the opposition gain ground. He also denied Taliban claims that U.S. Jets bombed a hospital, killing more than 100 people. In Pakistan today, police moved to stop a major anti-American protest. It was to take place tomorrow. Authorities blocked the leader of the country's largest Islamic party from flying to the demonstration site, and they arrested hundreds of his followers. Pakistan's border with Afghanistan remained closed today, even as thousands of Afghan refugees amassed along it. We have a report from Juliet Bremner of Independent Television News.

JULIET BREMNER: They know they're not wanted, but they have nowhere else to go. Barbed wire and border guards greet the Afghanistan refugees at Sharman, the closest crossing to the heavily bombed Taliban base at Kandahar. Only the sick, injured, or those able to bribe their way in can enter Pakistan. The rest are stranded in a barren no man's land. The UNHCR today claimed 15,000 refugees are now trapped behind this closed border.

PETER KESSLER, UN High Commission for Refugees: Well, the UNHCR has certainly appealed to the Pakistani authorities to open their frontier. They have said, however, that the border remains shut. Once again, we believe that any Afghan who needs asylum, certainly the desperate people, Sharman among them, should be allowed into the country.

JULIET BREMNER: Without papers or the means to pay, some resort to brute force. Stones and rocks were hurled at the guards who barred the way to food and freedom. Finally, in a stampede of dust and desperation, thousands of refugees rushed past security forces.

UPDATE - ANTHRAX THREAT

JIM LEHRER: Now to some of the details, beginning with an anthrax update from Kwame Holman.

KWAME HOLMAN: Flanked by District of Columbia and federal officials, the new head of homeland security, Tom Ridge, came to the White House briefing room this afternoon to update the anthrax problem. It now has touched more Washington, DC area postal workers.

TOM RIDGE: Two postal employees who work at the Brentwood mail facility here in Washington, DC, have tested positive for inhalation anthrax. Both of these workers are being treated with antibiotics, and obviously our best wishes and prayers are with them and their families. We also know that there are two very suspicious deaths that occurred today. And here are the facts about both of these cases: These Brentwood postal workers were seen by their doctors yesterday; both of these workers experienced respiratory complications, became critically ill, tragically ultimately passed away. We are still undergoing final tests to determine absolutely if these two deaths were related to anthrax exposure. Their cause of death to date is unclear. But I'll tell you what is very clear: It is very clear that their symptoms are suspicious and their deaths are likely due to anthrax. Now I'd like to discuss with you just a few steps that we have been taking to protect the citizens of the District of Columbia and all Americans. First of all, soon after the first case of anthrax surfaced, CDC placed its medical surveillance team on the highest alert. This medical surveillance system monitors emergency room logs every day all across this country. And the purpose of the service is to track potential trends. When we put them on the alert, we wanted them to track trends dealing with anthrax-like symptoms. We will continue to monitor closely any suspicious cases in emergency rooms that may arise anywhere across the country.

KWAME HOLMAN: The U.S. Postmaster General is John Potter.

JOHN POTTER: Our postal family is deeply saddened by today's news and shaken by the thought of terrorists using the U.S. Mail as a tool for their evil. These two postal employees joined a list of public servants who have died over the past two months while serving their country. Our hearts are heavy, knowing that two co-workers have become the latest victims of terrorism. It's clear to us, like other symbol symbols of American freedom and power, the mail and our employees have become a target of terrorists. It is equally clear that we must take extraordinary steps to protect them both.

KWAME HOLMAN: Washington's Brentwood postal sorting facility is two miles from the U.S. Capitol and now is closed for testing. This morning, chartered buses brought many of the nearly 2,000 people who work there and at another mail facility in Maryland to Washington's, DC General Hospital. They stood in long lines to receive nasal swab tests for anthrax and precautionary ten-day doses of antibiotics. One of the employees tested today said he often went into the special delivery area where the first confirmed anthrax victim worked. Barry Iverson said his family is worried about him.

BARRY IVERSON: They were concerned about whether or not I was going to get sick because I worked in close proximity with the guy that's over in the hospital. You know, right now I'm feeling better.

REPORTER: Some of the workers, the postal workers who worked at the Brentwood facility are asking two questions. Number one since the Daschle letter would have originated there they want to know why that facility wasn't closed sooner. And they also want to know why the workers themselves weren't tested sooner and the Postal Service spokesman said they were following the advice for the Centers for Disease Control so were federal officials a little slow in responding to the threat there?

TOM RIDGE: Well, I think we will always look to whether it's this threat or any other threat move to hasten and move as quickly as we possibly can. But let me give you the sequence of events, as I know them and we'll let the officials from the CDC or the Post Office talk about it. They followed the line back as aggressively and as quickly as they could. If the envelope was in the Senator's office that made it came out of the Dirkson Building. If it came out of the Dirkson Building previous to that it had been at the post office on P Street. P Street -- as I understand -- it was tested environmentally but the tests were negative. In order to get to P Street it has to come through the Brentwood Post Office. Thereafter immediately they put everybody, the hospitals and everybody else on alert to see if anybody presented themselves with symptoms. So I think they moved back, followed the chain as quickly as they possibly can. Obviously we're going to do everything we can every time we can to expedite that but I think they moved quickly.

REPORTER: I'd like to ask the postmaster general a question. Sir, out in the real world a lot of people worry not only about packages, whether to open a letter or a package, but they're worried also about the letters that they receive. Can anthrax be transmitted through the cover of letters or the envelopes, not the inside? That's my question.

JOHN POTTER: Well, we've been advised that if it's a sealed envelope that it would not transmit anthrax, but again I'm not the medical expert. I'll turn to the medical folks to answer that question.

DR. MITCH COHEN, Centers for Disease Control: Much of what we've determined has been from the previous investigations. This is really a new phenomena. At first, we had no evidence that any of the mail handlers were at risk. So this phenomena of first having skin disease in New Jersey and now having inhalational disease is an evolution. Now how it's actually occurring isn't clear, and that's part of our epidemiologic investigation is to try to track down what are those kinds of exposures and try to eliminate them so that we can make things safer.

REPORTER: Are we confident that there's only one letter that passed through the Brentwood facility? Could there be more and is the investigation ongoing in that respect?

TOM RIDGE: The investigation remains to be very aggressive. I can't tell you the number of people they have assigned both within the post office and the FBI on the investigation right now. Again as this evolves, and that's what we're dealing with, as this evolves it does appear right now that the thesis today based on the facts we know is probably the same letter but we don't know that to an absolute certainty that I could stand up before you today and say I'm 100% certain today and I'll be 100% certain a year from now it was one letter. That's why they're not only trying to deal with the potentially affected post office employees but we're trying to find the source and determine if there was one or multiple sources; we do not have that information now. But right now it is consistent with the theory that this one letter could have contaminated the whole system. Whether there's others we don't know. Yes.

REPORTER: Have you considered curtailing the mail delivery in --

TOM RIDGE: Never.

REPORTER: -- in Washington because of this?

TOM RIDGE: I don't make those final decisions but in talking to Jack Potter and Mr. Sambrato. I'll let them tell you what they think. They can say more.

JOHN POTTER: We don't intend to curtail mail delivery. We're not going to be defeated. I mean, the people are talking... Keep in mind, we have 208 billion pieces of mail a year. We've delivered some 20 billion since September 11. We do and we are pushing an awareness campaign. We are pushing an intervention campaign and an investigation campaign. We have no intent of... to stop delivery of the mail unless we have a situation where people we suspect anthrax. Obviously then we'll pull back.

JIM LEHRER: Gwen Ifill has more.

GWEN IFILL: Joining me now to discuss the latest anthrax cases is Michael Coughlin, who served as Deputy Postmaster General from 1987 to 1999 -- he is currently an executive with Accenture, an information technology consulting services firm. And Mohammad Akhter is executive director of the American Public Health Association. He is a former Washington, DC, Health commissioner from 1991 to 1994.

Dr. Akhter, based on what you just heard Tom Ridge lay out, this chain of events, what is your sense of how this could have happened?

DR. MOHAMMED AKHTER, American Public Health Association: My sense is, first, that the system worked and that the medical authorities really moved as fast as they could to identify the cases. The practitioner reported the cases quickly but the disease was so vicious that people really got sick. My second thing is that this is a new development. In the past the issues were very clear that a letter would arrive with the white powder, everybody will know it, will notice it. Then we will take appropriate measures. This time the postal worker didn't know. They did not open the mail as far as we know. So the issue here is where did this come from? Is this from the same letter, or was there something else there? And the second is that these spores really were of much higher quality -- that a lot of them really did go into the air and the people were able to breathe in and get the inhalation anthrax.

GWEN IFILL: Well, you talk about how this is a new thing. How is it that an envelope, which presumably wasn't opened, can result in inhalation anthrax? We've been worried all this time about opening envelopes, powder falling out and then inhaling it or getting it on the skin.

DR. MOHAMMED AKHTER: I really don't know the exact mechanism at the post office. And I think that's why we need to look at the exact source. How did this happen? Was there another envelope that was opened and/or got opened in the process of sorting the mail and then somehow or the other spores got into the air and enough of the spores got into the air to have inhalation anthrax? One could expect under normal circumstances that a few spores might leak out and might cause the skin anthrax, but really have inhalation anthrax -- you really need to have between 5,000 to 10,000 spores being inhaled so this is truly a new development and we need to investigate and find out how it happened so we can protect the worker in the future.

GWEN IFILL: The immediate question becomes is it the sorting equipment that perhaps can jostle the envelopes or are they handled so roughly that powder or anything in it could come out?

MICHAEL COUGHLIN, Former Deputy Postmaster General: No -- obviously there's high-speed sorting equipment, mail-handling equipment in our big facilities. But you have to remember, as Jack Potter just pointed out, there's billions of pieces of mail a year go through that...those systems and very few of those pieces of mail get damaged in that process. Again, I don't think we know enough about... I certainly don't know enough about anthrax and how it's spread to know whether an envelope moving through a high-speed canceling machine, for example, could end up with stuff that could be inhaled.

GWEN IFILL: Postal officials also say that these high-speed canceling machines are often cleaned with blowers that could potentially blow the dust into the air.

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: Well, as part of the maintenance procedure, the ongoing maintenance procedure for these machines, they do use high-speed or high-pressure air hoses to blow the dust that accumulates over... if you can imagine literally thousands of pieces an hour of paper moving through these high-speed machines, there is some dust that collects -- and in the interest of just keeping the place clean and for the protection of the employees to blow that away. I'm sure though they're going to have to rethink that procedure.

GWEN IFILL: Has the Postal Service ever had to deal with anything of this magnitude before?

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: I can't -- I was in the system for 32 years. In my estimation, this is unprecedented. The only thing that certainly was like this, I suppose, were some of the incidents of violence that took place in post offices a few years ago. Even that was quite different. This is really unprecedented.

GWEN IFILL: Dr. Akhter, the next level of worry I suppose is whether postal letter carriers can then take an anthrax tainted letter and slip it through the mail slot at our homes. Is this something that you think that we should be concerned about?

DR. MOHAMMED AKHTER: I think again until we find out how these people got sick at the post office we will not know more. But certainly there is a possibility that some tainted letters could go and be delivered in our homes, but the possibility of getting a serious disease from a few spores sticking on the outside of the letter would not be as serious beside getting maybe a skin anthrax possibility but not really the possibility does not exist of getting such a serious illness as these postal workers have gotten in the post office.

GWEN IFILL: Governor Ridge talked about how this is one war with two battlefields and that this domestic battlefield, this anthrax war is a new battlefield. Do you think that knowing that, that perhaps these postal employees should have been tested sooner as soon as they were tracing back this letter from Senator Daschle's office?

DR. MOHAMMED AKHTER: I think hindsight is always 20/20. I mean this is a new thing we are just learning as we're going through this process. I think that authorities acted with complete accuracy and as promptly as they could to get to these postal workers. And I'm also very pleased the way the general practitioners acted, that they reported all suspicious cases to the health authorities. And I understand there are 12 or 13 cases that are being seriously followed to rule out the possibility of anthrax. So I'm, you know, the system is working. But it's unfortunate that this anthrax got released and got vaporized in the air so these people got so sick.

GWEN IFILL: Last time you were on the program, Dr. Akhter, you said that you thought that perhaps the nation is prepared for sporadic outbreaks like this but that a lot of localities are not. Based on your experience in the District of Columbia, do you believe that the District of Columbia and regional and federal officials are here are capable, are prepared to handle this?

DR. MOHAMMED AKHTER:I think the District of Columbia is completely prepared. I have spoken with both Dr. Benjamin, the health commissioner for the - for Maryland and also Dr. Ivan Wachs. I've looked at the arrangements. I think they are perfectly on top of the situation. CDC is also there. The District is prepared but I think if you look at the rest of the country there are areas where there are major gaps. And we still need to strengthen the local and state health departments to make sure that people have the same level of service all across our land.

GWEN IFILL: Mr. Coughlin, how about the postal service? Is it prepared for this kind of unpredictable event?

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: Well, they do have a number of contingency plans for a variety of kinds of things. They've had for years and years and years standard procedures for the handling of hazardous materials in the post office and procedures for handling the spills of hazardous materials. As I said, this particular incident is a bit unprecedented, but I think the postmaster general, his people have moved remarkably quickly to address the situation. I know that Jack Potter has spent hours and hours and hours just in media briefings trying to get the word out to the public and to his own employees about the nature of this problem.

GWEN IFILL: Who within the system is responsible for tracking this down?

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: In terms of the investigative side of it, it is the chief postal inspector. They're handling obviously... trying to find who did this and bring them to justice.

GWEN IFILL: How does that work?

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: The chief post inspector is the head of what is the oldest law enforcement agency in the federal government, and they're charged with enforcing laws involving the use of the mails. Now, in many of their cases, particularly this one, they would work in conjunction withthe FBI and with other federal law enforcement agencies. I think that's been clear this past week. You've seen both the chief postal inspector and the postmaster general with the attorney general and the head of the FBI.

GWEN IFILL: The postmaster general also suggested that there's a way perhaps to sanitize the mail using radiation techniques or something that is also used on fruit and food.

MICHAEL COUGHLIN: I'm sure they're looking at all the possibilities now. I've heard some of those speculated about by a variety of people. You have to look at... I think we have to try to figure out how big this problem is and how widespread keeping in mind the first and most important thing is protecting postal employees and protecting the public from exposure to this. I don't think we want to... I think we want to keep it in perspective, and I know that's hard to say on a day when two people died. But right now it seems to be confined to a relatively small number of facilities. The postmaster general indicated-- and I think he's absolutely right on track here -- they're sending out 135 million cards right now to every address in America telling them how they should look at mail and how they should try to identify what might be suspicious, unknown and what to do with it in case they're afraid of it. I think that's all part of this education process.

GWEN IFILL: And Dr. Akhter, do you think that's enough or should mail at least for the short term be suspended, mail delivery?

DR. MOHAMMED AKHTER: Not at all. I think this is enough. We should continue to deliver the mail. I would though say that we need to take the next step which I believe the local health authority and the CDC is doing, which is to test the entire facility to make sure that we identify where these spores are and then to really look at the people who may need additional treatment or testing.

GWEN IFILL: Dr. Akhter and Mr. Coughlin, thank you very much.

UPDATE - OPPOSING FORCE

JIM LEHRER: Now, the latest on the U.S. Military campaign in Afghanistan: We start with a report from Tom Bearden.

TOM BEARDEN: Anti-Taliban Northern Alliance soldiers cheered the sight of U.S. warplanes today. For the second day in a row, the U.S. attacked Taliban front lines in Northern Afghanistan as part of a new emphasis on targeting soldiers rather than fixed structures. Taliban positions were hit 25 miles north of Kabul. Opposing Northern Alliance soldiers are positioned to their north. The U.S. also hit other Taliban forces near Mazar-e Sharif inside another battle zone, the Northern Alliance is seeking to control. At the Pentagon today, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the U.S. is trying to increase coordination with anti-Taliban forces.

DONALD RUMSFELD: The reason for the air attacks on Taliban and al-Qaida forces is to destroy Taliban and al-Qaida forces. It happens that they are arrayed against, for the most part, Northern Alliance forces north of Kabul and in the northwest portion of the country. And our efforts from the air clearly are to assist those forces on the ground in being able to occupy more ground. The Northern Alliance is a group of separate elements that have somewhat consistent interests but on the other hand they also have competing and conflicting interests. They do not always agree with each other as to what should be done. The United States and the coalition forces have, for a period of days, been seeking out concentrations of Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. We have had uneven success -- to the extent we have excellent ground-to-air coordination, the success improves. To the extent that some of the forces move forward against Taliban and al-Qaida forces, our success improves because it flushes them.

TOM BEARDEN: Yesterday on CNN, Secretary of State Colin Powell suggested the Northern Alliance could surround Kabul in the very near future. As for the campaign's timetable, Powell said he hoped this matter would be resolved before winter comes next month. Rumsfeld was also asked about timing today, specifically whether the U.S. campaign would pause next month for the Muslim observance of Ramadan.

DONALD RUMSFELD: I would say two things: First, that we have great respect for the views and concerns of the many countries that are cooperating in this effort. As I've said on a number of occasions, the sensitivities and the perspectives vary from country to country. We also have to recognize two other things. One is that there continue to be terrorist threats in this world and the sooner we deal with this problem, the less likely it is that you're going to have additional terrorist attacks.

TOM BEARDEN: Also today the Pentagon responded to a Taliban claim that the U.S. bombed a hospital in western Afghanistan killing more than 100 people.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff: We're not quite as certain about that yet so we're going to continue to look. The last thing we want to do is cause any civilian casualties so we're still looking. We don't have the evidence yet.

TOM BEARDEN: Secretary Rumsfeld addressed the growing tension between the Pentagon and its press corps over what information should be made public.

DONALD RUMSFELD: Our goal is not to demystify things for the other side. This is a very complicated set of problems. The goal is to confuse. It is to make more difficult. It is to add cost. It is to frighten. And it is to defeat the Taliban and the al-Qaida. I am admittedly withholding some information that I think would put American lives at risk or would jeopardize the effort we're engaged in. But in terms of saying it's a lot, it isn't. The press in this... This is a very open society. And the press knows, you know, almost as much as exists and almost as soon as it exists.

TOM BEARDEN: Over the weekend the Pentagon did acknowledge that Special Forces attacked a Taliban-controlled airfield and a residence of Taliban leader Mullah Omar near Kandahar. The U.S. said the intelligence gathering operation was a success but acknowledged that two American soldiers were killed in a helicopter accident in a supporting operation in Pakistan. The Taliban claimed to have shot down two U.S. helicopters and to have killed 20 American servicemen.

JIM LEHRER: Now some reaction in northern Afghanistan. Mark Austin of Independent Television News reports.

MARK AUSTIN: Reporter: In the hills of northeast Afghanistan, anti- Taliban forces are targeting their enemy. (Gunfire) It has become a daily ritual.

MAN: Allah.... (Gunshot)

MARK AUSTIN: Sporadic rather than heavy shelling, and significantly, the Taliban are fighting back. Listen to the haunting screech of an incoming rocket... (Low howl) (Distant explosion) ...This one landing close to Northern Alliance positions on a nearby ridge. This fighting has been going on for several hours now, and what it shows is that Taliban-- in this area, at least-- still have some fight in them. Northern Alliance fighters beckon us to forward trenches, keen to show the results of their firepower, but the truth is this is more for show than anything else. Without American bombing of Taliban front lines here, this fighter admits they're powerless to advance. "The Taliban terrorists are strong here-- I'd be really happy if the Americans bombed," he told me. But at the moment, American jets are concentrating on Taliban troops around Kabul and around Mazar-e Sharif, miles to the West. Alliance forces are gathering for an intended advance across the North, but they are poorly armed, poorly trained, and even with the help of American strikes and Special Forces, may still struggle to make headway.

JIM LEHRER: For the record, going back to Tom Bearden's piece, Secretary Rumsfeld denied the Taliban claim that two U.S. helicopters were shot down.

JIM LEHRER: Now Elizabeth Farnsworth takes the story from here.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Farnsworth: For more on the situation in Afghanistan, we turn to Haron Amin, spokesman for the Northern Alliance and the Northern Alliance's representative to Washington. Ashraf Ghani is adjunct professor of anthropology at Johns Hopkins University. He was born in Afghanistan, and taught there before coming to the United States in 1977. And to Qayum Karzai is an Afghan citizen and the founder of "Afghans for Civil Society," which seeks to promote inter- Afghan dialogue -- his family has been hosting meetings of Afghan tribal leaders in Quetta, Pakistan. Haron Amin, do the attacks on Taliban front lines... Front- line positions opposite the Northern Alliance mean that the Northern Alliance is preparing to move towards Kabul as Secretary of State Powell indicated?

HARON AMIN, Northern Alliance: Elizabeth, I should emphasize that we have been requesting for the coordination of military attacks on Taliban front lines for a long time. Indeed, pounding of a lot of the stationery or static Taliban positions have not yielded much or compounds -- the al-Qaida people along thousands of other militants have sought refuge in the front line. We apparently based from our intelligence that there was some sort of guarantee by the Pakistanis who had told them to move along the front line. But indeed one thing that I can tell you is that if there is the coordination, a close coordination of these attacks, the air raids into the Taliban positions around most of the... I mean, most of the Northern Afghanistan, Masar, Herat, -- around Talikan -- as well as northern of Kabul and if it's simultaneous that would give up the upper hand on doing the ground move ourselves and hopefully being able to take and reduce the number of the Taliban and those of al-Qaida tremendously.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And do what else? Move towards Kabul? Surround Kabul? What's the strategy?

HARON AMIN: The strategy is that this is going to be - this is going to be a four-pronged attack and hopefully north of Kabul we're going to move and surround Kabul but not capture Kabul, not occupy Kabul because it has a lot of implications and we've... We were still waiting for the Afghan groups to get together and hopefully have with the help of the United Nations and the international community a clear political road map.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And Mr. Amin, describe the coordination between the United States and the Northern Alliance. How is it carried out? How close is the coordination?

HARON AMIN: Thus far I mean with the exception of the last maybe 12 to 24 hours there was some level of coordination but mostly carried out by the international community as the counter terrorism campaign on its own. We were still waiting and lately it seems that it's getting more to what we have really desired. I think that in order for us to be able to tangibly gain some ground and push the Taliban back there needs to be a lot more coordination. That's something we're looking into with those that are involved in the campaign of air raids.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Ashraf Ghani, what are your contacts tell you about these attacks on the front lines?

ASHRAF GHANI, Johns Hopkins University: What they're saying is that there's enormous fear that the Northern Alliance will not be able to maintain its unity and that some elements within it would actually advance upon Kabul and repeat the story of '92, namely to confront the international community with a fait accompli and declare themselves to be the Government of Afghanistan. Second there's enormous fear that should the Northern Alliance actually reach Kabul there would be repetition of the deeds that involved killing of civilians and lack of security for them and that this in turn could provoke a very strong reaction on the part of the Pashtuns in general and some of the other elements of the Afghan society and could legitimate the Taliban as a force. The third thing that they're saying is that the Taliban have really taken a very strong nationalist rhetoric these days and there is no one else that is articulating a vision and a political roadmap that rallies the nation and consequently a lot of people who might otherwise be willing to get out from under the Taliban do not know who to go to.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Haron Amin, I'll come back to you for a response on that. But first Qayum Karzai, what's your view? What are you hearing about the attacks on the front line positions and what they portend?

QAYUM KARZAI, Afghans for Civil Society: Well, I will agree with the general thesis that Ashraf Ghani has put forward. At this time I think there's a great consensus in Afghanistan that the best thing is to avoid fighting in Kabul and let a political roadmap, based on the process of creating an Afghan consensus, emerge first and catch up with the military activities and then create an alternative to the Taliban that is...that is representative of the whole of Afghanistan and then take care of the issues thereafter.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Haron Amin, I'm going to come back to the issue of the diplomatic solutions but on the question of divisions within the Northern Alliance and whether one group might, in fact, move into Kabul and try to take it, what about that?

HARON AMIN: Well, let me specifically tell you that the... there is consensus within the leadership of the united front not to invade Kabul. That has been amply stated by our spokespeople as well, as officials throughout most of the media. That is clear. Certainly I can tell you one thing, that there seems to be more cohesion in the ranks of the United Front than there is actually in terms of a policy vis- -vis Afghanistan here in Washington. But regardless, one thing that is important is that there is no intention of invading Kabul. There is... I mean, remember one thing, Elizabeth, that is, in order to be able to hand down Osama bin Laden you need to destroy al-Qaida. Both of these tasks could not be done without the roll back of the Taliban. Apparently thus far the military initiative has failed. All it has produced is a lot of destroyed buildings and some destroyed planes and a little bit of the military infrastructure. What needs to really happen is there needs to be the push back of the Taliban through most of Northern Afghanistan so that actually more can be done and southern parts of Afghanistan. That ought to be simultaneous to some sort of an alternative of some of the Pashtun leadership in the South to replace the Taliban but also diplomatically getting back to that, that our delegation has been in contact with the former monarch of Afghanistan. They're going to be seeing again hopefully in the next two or three days meeting in turkey. They're going to be discussing the post Taliban leadership in Afghanistan. But again we emphasize the role, the pivotal role of the United Nations in all of this.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Mr. Amin, I want to go back to something you just said and raised in your earlier remarks too. You said there hasn't been much effect on the Taliban of all the attacks so far. Elaborate on that a little, lease.

HARON AMIN: Well, the people that attacked the United States on September 11, these were individuals, not stationery targets like buildings and so on and so forth. What thus far has happened is a lot of targeting of a lot of these buildings on the ground hasn't really yielded much. You're looking at manpower. These are the people that have been fighting us for many years. These are the people that aided al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden to carry out these terrorist attacks against the international community. These people need to be eliminated on the ground. That's why we welcome the last phase of the military air campaign that is going to tangibly target individuals that are in these trenches and these front lines. That's what needs to really happen.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: And, Qayum Karzai, what are you hearing from your contacts about the effect of the attacks so far, about defections, for example?

QAYUM KARZAI: Well, there's great potential for defection in the south of Afghanistan. But the great impediment to that is that the political alternative is lagging very behind, and there is no place for people to defect to. And I do believe that the great potential is there though.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Go on. Tell us some more about the political alternative. What is the status right now of the various efforts, which you have described in earlier appearances here to try to put together some kind of a coalition that would be a place to defect to?

QAYUM KARZAI: Well, unfortunately one of the most important things that actually sort of slowed down the political alternative emerging is that Pakistan actually pushed the ethnic issue after Afghan politics to the forefront of the agenda, and these are the internal dynamics of Afghanistan. And pushing these ethnic issues to the forefront....

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What do you mean - I'm sorry -- what do you mean push the ethnic issues to the forefront?

QAYUM KARZAI: For example, Pakistan last week decided to inject the issue of ethnicity that there should be... that sort of detailing the post Taliban regime and how to leverage that regime. I think the international community needs to constrain them from these ventures because the only way to create an alternative in Afghanistan is for Afghans to go the track of self-determination that they alone should sit in the process and figure out an alternative to the Taliban. The more the neighbors insist on these ethnic issues and then it opens doors for other neighbors to create instability in this process.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: But there is a meeting in Turkey coming up, right?

QAYUM KARZAI: Yes, there is.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: What is that meeting? What's the goal?

QAYUM KARZAI: The goal is to finalize the list of 120 people or so -- the supreme council.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: This would be a meeting of people from all the different factions and groups in Afghanistan, right?

QAYUM KARZAI: This will be a membership that will represent the great majority of the Afghan people, yes -- every sector of the Afghan society and every region of the Afghan society. And then in case that there is a vacuum developing in Kabul that this council will be moving into Kabul to do their deliberation.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Ashraf Ghani, how do you see the diplomatic efforts at this point?

ASHRAF GHANI: The diplomatic efforts are beginning to intensify because this personal representative of the secretary general has carried out a series of discussions and now his efforts will intensify. What is required is that there be one single, coordinated effort at finding a political solution. If there are multiple initiatives taken in each of the key players pursues an agenda and sends mixed signals, it's likely to confuse people. Currently, there's enormous confusion among the Afghans in terms of different things that they are hearing from different parts of the U.S. Government. And that, in turn, because of simultaneity of living and my every message being conveyed back and beamed to Afghanistan is producing a lot of confusing behavior on the part of the Afghans because they quite don't know as to what the intentions of the U.S. Government are.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Ashraf Ghani, just briefly, what's the significance of the Turkey meeting? Is it something we should be watching closely?

ASHRAF GHANI: We should be watching but we should also probably not hope too much from it. One reason being is that the key component of it is the former king and the Northern Alliance. In other groups has raised issues as to whether the division of labor that has been agreed upon in terms of seats and representation among these two groups actually represents the balance of power in Afghanistan. The related issue is that the Taliban are militarily intact and until they're militarily intact and the major groups that are living under their control have not defected wholesale -- this meeting will still remain symbolic. The meeting between the king and the Northern Alliance that took place has as yet not resulted in a significant defection of leaders of Pashtun community across the board in Southern and Eastern Afghanistan to the king and north of the Central Afghanistan. Therefore, until that is... That happens, we really don't have the elements of a real coalition on the ground that would enable people to move. In the meantime people are extremely concerned about security and fear that a major vacuum is developing within which a backlash could take place.

ELIZABETH FARNSWORTH: Thank you all three. We have to leave it there. Thanks very much.

FOCUS - UNDER SUSPICION

JIM LEHRER: The investigation dragnet story. Since September 11, federal officials have detained some 700 people. But none have yet to be charged specifically with any links to Osama bin Laden. Jeffrey Kaye of KCET, Los Angeles, reports.

JEFFREY KAYE: Since September 11, thousands of Muslims and Arab Americans have been caught up in the biggest criminal investigation in U.S. History. In southern California alone, home to a quarter of a million Muslims, the FBI has pursued more than 22,000 leads.

MAN: I opened the door; there were two gentlemen from the FBI

MAN: Turn the light on; open the door-- five agents walked in.

MAN: They said, "We'd like to speak with you regarding the events of last Tuesday."

JEFFREY KAYE: Dr. Riad Abdelkarim says FBI Agents questioned him for 75 minutes, mostly about his political views.

DR. RIAD ABDELKARIM, Physician: They asked me, "Are we the bad guys in this thing?" I looked at them kind of funny and I said, "who is 'we' and what 'thing' are you talking about?" He said, "'we' being the United States, and 'this thing', you know, this thing with Osama bin Laden."

JEFFREY KAYE: Hani Teebe, who imports food from the Middle East, says he was asked similar questions.

HANI TEEBE, Food Importer: What they had is just, "what do you think about it? How did you feel about it? Do you know anybody who was happy about it?"

JEFFREY KAYE: And real estate agent Tariq Mirzaq says he was asked about his numerous recent calls to his native country of Pakistan.

TARIQ MIRZAQ, Real Estate Agent: And they asked, "Who did you talk to? What did you talk about?" And I just talk to my family. Pretty simple. I just called my brother, talked to my mom. "What's going on? What are you doing?" Simple things. And after the thing, I've been... The last few days, I've been thinking about it. Am I done with or not? Or are they going to come back, arrest me? That is something which is very unsettling, like an experience. It keeps... It's just like a fear in the back of my mind.

JEFFREY KAYE: FBI Agent Stephen Steinhauser is trying to address concerns like these.

STEPHEN STEINHAUSER, Federal Bureau of Investigation: Why are you so afraid of the FBI? You know, hopefully, you're not believing everything you read in the paper.

JEFFREY KAYE: Recently the 23- year veteran of the bureau in charge of a three-county area of southern California accepted an invitation by Muslims and Arab Americans to answer questions, not ask them.

STEPHEN STEINHAUSER: Unfortunately, we may not always be able to tell you why that agent or agents are knocking on your door. And that is because of the nature of this investigation. I hope that you would understand that. If we can explain it to you, we will, but we are not targeting and we are not profiling. If we're knocking on your door, it is because we have a question to ask and you may have the answer.

JEFFREY KAYE: For two and a half hours Steinhauser responded to a salvo of questions.

AREFA VOHRA: You mentioned that racial profiling has not been taking place in regards to the September 11 tragedy, so what are the specifics in terms of the American Muslims that have been questioned and the non- American Muslims that have been questioned?

STEPHEN STEINHAUSER: The FBI Is not keeping statistics. However, when we're investigating the activities of 19 terrorists that were involved in the atrocities of September 11, what we are trying to do is peel back layers of how they had integrated themselves into the fabric of the Arab-American culture and society. They knew that they could wrap themselves around your customs, your culture, and your people -- not telling you what they were here for, but hiding themselves, concealing themselves, camouflaging themselves for their true roles that they were about to play.

JEFFREY KAYE: Sidqi Sobhi's remote connection to the terrorists led the FBI to his door. Last week, he and his sister Lamia were cleaning up after a search of their apartment. Agents confiscated a computer and books belonging to the Yemeni students. Sidqi Sobhi says the agents questioned him extensively about his car insurance policy.

SIDQI SOBHI: After two and a half hours of questioning about insurance policy, I asked him, "What is going on? At least let me know what is my position in all that's going on?"

JEFFREY KAYE: It turned out that Sobhi's name had appeared on insurance papers of a friend who lived in the same apartment complex of two of the hijackers.

SIDQI SOBHI: I don't think he knows them on apersonal level. I know him; he's a straight... You know, a straight student and not into too much socializing.

JEFFREY KAYE: Did you ever go to that complex?

SIDQI SOBHI: No, I've never been to San Diego to visit him.

JEFFREY KAYE: The Sobhis were handcuffed, and taken off to an Immigration Service detention center. They were held for 16 days. Lamia Sobhi says she understands why she and her brother were questioned, but she says she was humiliated by officials who refused to let her wear her headscarf. She had never been before a man without it.

LAMIA SOBHI: I was basically scared because they really scared me and I didn't want to break down and cry in front of them, because I felt like they wanted to, like, you know, to show that they're stronger. They're, like, "yeah, yeah, we know this is you and everything, but here you follow the rules like everybody else.

JEFFREY KAYE: The Sobhis are now facing deportation because the Immigration Service says their student visas have expired. Like the Sobhis, many questioned by the FBI had something in their past that might have raised red flags with authorities. Food wholesaler Hani Teebe studied nuclear physics, but never pursued a career in the subject. Physician Abdelkarim sits on the board of a humanitarian organization that Israel accuses of having terrorist connections; his group denies the ties. And real estate agent Mirzaq said the FBI asked him about his aviation background.

TARIQ MIRZAQ: They asked me, "how about this guy who hit the towers? Is it very difficult to do that or not?" I said, "I don't have any experience in any big commercial airlines, but as a pilot, I know basically it's a difficult thing to do."

STEPHEN STEINHAUSER: Keep in mind that we're not going out and talking to people because of their culture or because of their religion or because they are of Middle Eastern descent. We are talking to that individual because perhaps that phone number for your residence was written on an application that a hijacker used; perhaps that address was used by a hijacker on some application or some reference.

JEFFREY KAYE: The future of civil liberties was a major concern at this forum.

WOMAN: Are we going to compromise civil rights for national security?

STEPHEN STEINHAUSER: Is there a chance that some of your civil liberties may slip while we guarantee the security of this country? Maybe.

Maybe.

JEFFREY KAYE: Steinhauser suggested that liberties might be eroded depending on circumstances.

STEPHEN STEINHAUSER: Let me give you an example: Do you have the civil right and the civil liberties to go into a grocery store without being searched? Yes or no? Yes. You have that. That is one of your civil liberties. You can go into a grocery store, buy your gallon of milk, and walk out and you are guaranteed you're not going to be searched. Now, next week, a suicide bomber straps on a dynamite pack and he walks into the local Ralph's or Albertson's and he blows himself up over by the bananas. Well, maybe it's the meat department. (Laughter) Three days later, it's an Albertson's a mile away. A couple of days later it's a Vaughan's, a couple of blocks away -- three, four, five suicide bombers in grocery stores in the United States of America, here in Orange County. Now, every grocery store hires an armed guard and everybody that goes into the grocery store must be frisked and go through a metal detector. What happened to those civil liberties?

JEFFREY KAYE: Steinhauser assured the audience they could trust the FBI and that the government would not repeat abuses of the past, abuses that were vivid in the memories of Japanese Americans invited to this forum to share their experiences and advice.

SALLY TSUNEISHI: And the FBI Did come to my home, December 7, 11:30 at night, knocked on the door, took my father in his nightclothes and slippers, and we haven't seen him after that for two and a half years. In those days, we went sheepishly where the government told us to go. We didn't have the guts to say, "Hey, I'm an American-- I won't go." But I think now most people are sophisticated. I think that Arab Americans are more sophisticated. It won't happen to you, never, because I can see the young people today are so much more sophisticated and they know their rights as a citizen and they're not going anywhere that they don't feel like going. (Applause)

JEFFREY KAYE: Despite the resolve and amity in this room, fears linger as to whether the government can effectively investigate the crimes of September 11 and after without putting entire communities under a pall of suspicion.

ESSAY - FEAR ITSELF

JIM LEHRER: We close tonight with some thoughts from essayist Roger Rosenblatt.

ROGER ROSENBLATT: In the last years and throes of the Soviet Union, I was strolling around Moscow with a university teacher whom I was interviewing. As we walked on a bright, blue September Sunday, I noticed that people we passed were staring at me -- lots of people with a sort of scientific intensity. I asked my companion; did I look so different from ordinary Russians that I stood out as an object of curiosity? She responded almost blithely, you don't look afraid. Americans don't look afraid. It was true, of course, and it was the first time I had been made aware of this oddity in the American make-up. All other countries and cultures have had good reason to know and show fear, to have had fear bred into their voices, postures, habits of mind. But until the past few weeks historically blessed America has sauntered about fear free. And our newfound alertness to bombers in the trees has had the effect of a new national costume or language. Not only does fear not feel natural to us, one is nostalgically aware of how pleasant it was to live without it. The Israelis have lived with this kind of fear for over 50 years. The Russians and Soviet Bloc countries as well. Vaclav Havel wrote of the distortion of reality fear instills, how perfectly sane and intelligent citizens would spout Marxist slogans to appease the secret police who did not believe the slogans themselves. Unlike the Czechs, Americans are not afraid of their own country but we are beginning to be afraid of living in our own country, which comes to pretty much the same thing. This is what terrorism does. It takes your country away. Incidents of anthrax occur, the FBI has information not specific to target that more attacks are imminent. Unspecificity creates fear in its worst form, panic, which is what the terrorists want: Fear of the enemy without a uniform, the front without a front. Cervantes said that fear is sharp sighted and can see things underground and much more in the skies. He was really referring to that transitional state when fear which is sobering and useful becomes out of control and dangerous. So we are beginning to know how fear works on the system. It makes one speechless, literally takes one's speech away. It makes one feel alone and isolated, isolation being the last thing one wishes to experience in a time requiring unity. But the worst it can do is to seep into the bloodstream so that all of life is poisoned. And even in those moments when nothing is going wrong, a sweet time with family, a walk in the park, one feels that life is on the verge of a mad explosion. One is supposed to make a silk purse out of this mess, I know, but I doubt that this newly acquired trait permits many elegant conversions. One hopes that fear may be alchemized to resolve, others before us have done that. Meanwhile the sky goes dark sooner these days bearing clouds of gunmetal gray and an explosive sinking sun and the occasional plane. I'm Roger Rosenblatt.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Again, the major developments of the day. Officials said two postal workers in Washington died of anthrax-like symptoms; two others were hospitalized with the same inhaled form of the disease. And U.S. planes attacked front- line Taliban troops for a second day in Afghanistan. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.