The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MacNeil: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary we have a Newsmaker interview with Sec. of State Lawrence Eagleburger. Charlayne Hunter-Gault reports from Somalia, and people who know Clinton's latest cabinet choices discuss their merits. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: President-elect Bill Clinton named two more cabinet officers today. Former South Carolina Dick Riley was nominated for secretary of education. Riley has been serving in the Clinton transition as personnel chief for sub-cabinet positions. Hazel O'Leary, a utility executive from Minnesota, was picked to be energy secretary. The 55-year-old attorney is the second woman and third black selected for a cabinet post in the Clinton administration. We'll have more on the latest choices later in the program. Jim.

MR. LEHRER: The federal government filed an antitrust price fixing suit today against eight large U.S. airlines and a data exchange company. They are charged with operating a joint computerized fare system in a manner which restrained price competition. A chartered Dutch airliner crashed in Portugal today. At least 54 people died, 280 were injured. Four are still missing. The DC-10 was on a flight from Amsterdam to the Portuguese resort town of Faroh. Airport officials said it was making a second landing attempt during a heavy thunderstorm. They said the plane exploded after one wing scraped the runway. Wreckage was scattered across more than 300 yards.

MR. MacNeil: In South Lebanon today, Israeli-backed militia opened fire near more than 400 suspected Palestinian militants expelled from Israel. Two of the Palestinians were wounded. The group has been stranded between Lebanese lines and Israeli-held territory in south Lebanon since late last week. Louise Bates of Worldwide Television News narrates this report.

MS. BATES: The deportees dive for cover as the mortars fired by the Israeli-backed south Lebanese militia exploded. Journalists allowed by the Lebanese army to accompany the Palestinians beat a hasty retreat. The deportees were heading for Israeli lines after the Lebanese army had ordered them out of their makeshift camp and told them not to return. The Israeli-backed Lebanese militia chose a more direct way of telling them they weren't welcome. Two of the deportees were injured and one of them was taken to a hospital in Lebanese-controlled territory. Israel at first denied that live ammunition had been fired, but then admitted the shots had come from its south Lebanon militia allies. The militia announced it had mined the approaches to the area it jointly controls with Israel to keep the Palestinians out. In the Knesset, Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin was unrepentant. He said he had no pity for the expelled Palestinians and vowed they would not be allowed back into Israeli-controlled areas, but he was also on the defensive. The world, he said, was always quick to heap criticism on Israel. Lawyers acting for the deportees will claim before the Israeli Supreme Court on Tuesday that the deportations are illegal. If the judges agree, Rabin may yet have to swallow his words.

MR. LEHRER: Serbia's hard-line president appeared headed for re- election today. U.S. officials said there were significant irregularities in the voting yesterday. Early results showed President Slobodan Milosevic with more than 50 percent of the vote. Challenger Prime Minister Milan Panic had just over 30 percent. Panic formally requested the vote be thrown out and demanded a new election. Relief flights were resumed to the Bosnian capital, Sarajevo, today. They were suspended three weeks ago because of fighting. Bad weather cancelled many of the 18 flights scheduled to arrive today. We'll have more on the Serbian election story right after this News Summary.

MR. MacNeil: Somalia's two main warlords today began moving their heavy weapons out of the capital. U.S. officials called it a first step towards demilitarization of Mogadishu. Meanwhile, U.S. and Belgium troops have secured a third Somali city, the southern port of Kismayu. After an amphibious landing, they quickly took control of the city's port and airport and relief planes began landing soon after. That's our summary of the news. Now it's on to the secretary of state, Charlayne Hunter-Gault from Somalia, and Clinton's latest cabinet choices. NEWSMAKER

MR. LEHRER: The Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger, is first tonight. He joins us for a Newsmaker interview right after this report on the presidential elections in Serbia. The reporter is Gaby Rado of Independent Television News.

MR. RADO: As the day wore on, the sour faces in the opposition headquarters were more and more telling their own story. The earliest tally of votes counted were mainly from Belgrade, Milan Panic's stronghold. Yet, Slobodan Milosevic was still edging up towards the threshold of 50 percent which would give him victory in the first round. And these were figures from the opposition scrutineers with which they couldn't argue. Celebrating his birthday late last night, Mr. Panic was upbeat enough to joke about the validity of the election.

MILAN PANIC: Oh, it will be valid, especially if I win.

MR. RADO: But today out of sight in his official resident, Mr. Panic met opposition leaders and with just over 1/10 of the vote counted, they decided to declare the election invalid.

TEODOR OLIC, Spokesman for Milan Panic: We would like to make a statement that these elections are irregular because of fraud, theft, and cheating encountered in the ballot casting.

MR. RADO: The Conference for Security & Cooperation in Europe sent a team to observe the election. They reported they had found flaws in procedure. Among the most obvious was that many voters had to fill in ballot papers with no privacy at all, and there were also problems with registration lists.

SIR JAMES KILFEDDER MP, British Parliamentary Observation Team: Well, I came across a number of cases where people have been left on this, who had been on the electoral register for many many years and suddenly weren't on it. Now if that is repeated throughout the whole of the country, then it will have a significant impact on results.

MR. RADO: Coverage of the election campaign on state TV was, according to the observers, biased in favor of Mr. Milosevic and his Socialist Party. The boycott of polling stations by the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo, who make up 90 percent of the population of the province, further undermined the legitimacy of the elections. If, as now seems probable, the result strengthens hard-line attitudes among the Serb authorities in Belgrade, then the likelihood that war will stretch to Kosovo becomes all the greater, fulfilling the West's worst fears.

EDITA TAHIRI, Ruling Council, Democratic League of Kosovo: We have analyzed for this period of election campaign, if we see any good prospect to live with Serbs in this so-called Yugoslavia, Great Serbia, but we haven't seen any good prospects for a venue there.

MR. RADO: The response from ordinary Serbs to Slobodan Milosevic staying in power is typically extreme.

WOMAN: If that should be, I don't know what we'll do if he wins.

MAN: If he wins, we'll have a war, war in Serbia, and that's very bad.

MAN ON STREET: I satisfied that I also would elect him.

MR. RADO: Perhaps the most disturbing thing today was the unsuspected success in the parliamentary elections of Voyslav Cessel's far right Serbian radical party. Cessel's name was linked to possible war crimes investigations by the Americans last week. In the past hour, Mr. Panic has appeared on an independent TV channel, declared the elections to be illegal and called himself the moral winner. He said there should be fresh polls under international supervision with equal access to the media for all parties. The near certainty tonight that Slobodan Milosevic has retained the presidency among the bitter complaints of the opposition will further polarize Serbian society and will have worldwide implications.

MR. LEHRER: Now to the State Department and to Sec. Eagleburger. Mr. Secretary, welcome.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Thank you.

MR. LEHRER: So it looks like Milosevic is going to remain president of Serbia. Is that bad news from the American point of view?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, obviously, we've got to wait until we have a clear account, and we don't want to intervene in their internal affairs, but the answer to your question, in short, is yes.

MR. LEHRER: Why?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Milosevic has spent the last three or four years running a regime that is less and less civilized, more and more intent upon driving non-Serbs out of territory that the Serbs claim but which is not legitimately theirs. We've seen all of the reports of humanitarian excesses in terms of camps, of murders, and rapes. It is not a pretty picture, and we see no evidence whatsoever on the basis of any analysis at all that Milosevic intends to try to bring Serbia back into a more civilized atmosphere.

MR. LEHRER: Do we have -- does the United States have contact with him and his government?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, we have a mission in Belgrade, and they have contact with him and some of his officials on occasion, but I would not call it warm or friendly, no.

MR. LEHRER: But is it an ongoing relationship? In other words, when you as the Secretary of State of the United States have some message to deliver tohim, does it get delivered in a way that means anything?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: We can deliver it in a way that means something, but please remember this is basically the presidency of Serbia. Mr. Panic has been the prime minister of what is left of Yugoslavia, so there is a distinction here, but that having been said, we can get messages to Milosevic when we need to, and I can't believe that he doesn't have a very clear understanding of our view of him and what his government has been doing.

MR. LEHRER: What is your view? Your spokesman for you in the State Department today said the same thing that Panic said, that there were severe irregularities in the election. How severe are they? Do you think it's an illegal election?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Jim, that's hard for me to say at this stage. We have lots of reports of what have been termed irregularities, and I would hope that by tomorrow or the day after certainly at the most, we'll have a much clearer picture of this. I can't declare from this distance whether it is illegal or not. Clearly, obviously, if there are substantial reasons to believe that this is a hooked election, that it's one that they've cooked, why under those circumstances it would be illegal, but even that, I must tell you, doesn't mean that you should expect Mr. Milosevic would, therefore, give up power or call another election. I think the chances are very light that that would happen.

MR. LEHRER: So as a practical matter, it doesn't really matter whether it was legal or illegal?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, obviously, it matters, but in terms of the practical realities of the consequence, you're probably right, that it simply adds to the long, long list of things we in the West and frankly in the civilized world have to complain about as far as Mr. Milosevic is concerned.

MR. LEHRER: Now, the complaining that the civilized world has done, you have led that in the last several days and last few weeks, but is it fair to say that things haven't move very far except on complaining? In other words, you went to -- you just got back from Europe, and you said, okay, NATO, we're prepared to enforce a no-fly zone, NATO said no thanks, sent you to the U.N.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Not true, not true.

MR. LEHRER: Well, okay. All right. What did they say?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: See, there's been a lot of misunderstanding on that, Jim. The fact of the matter is that NATO -- we didn't ask NATO to endorse a no-fly zone. That is not their business. But we got was a very clear statement from NATO that if, in fact, the U.N. passes the no-fly zone enforcement resolution, NATO is prepared to provide military assets to see that it is enforced, the first time that's happened. NATO has, in effect, said that outside the NATO area, NATO is prepared to participate with force in enforcing a U.N. resolution.

MR. LEHRER: Well, that was interpreted back here, Mr. Secretary as a kind of no thanks, as I said.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, I don't want to criticize some of your colleagues. I know you didn't make this mistake, but some others did and partly because they reacted in the middle of the conference, not at the end. I think frankly the NATO conference was a great success, in that sense, indicating support for a no-fly zone resolution, in saying as well that the Kosovo, if it blew up into a major conflagration, would be a threat to the peace and that NATO would have to take that under consideration and try to deal with that as well. NATO's moved forward on this stuff. To get back to your fundamental point, however, I have to concede to you that interms of the situation on the ground in Bosnia, it does not get particularly better. Cy Vance is doing very well in trying to bring the parties together for diplomatic discussions, looking for some sort of a solution, but the fighting goes on, it is intolerable, but we've talked about this on more than one occasion on your program, there is no immediate solution to this outside putting in some hundreds of thousands of troops to try to stop it.

MR. LEHRER: But you mentioned Mr. Vance. He's opposed to what you're advocating.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: That's correct.

MR. LEHRER: He didn't want the no-fly zone enforced --

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: That is correct.

MR. LEHRER: -- militarily.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: That is correct. His view is that this will make the process of trying to bring about a political solution more difficult. I have great respect for Cy Vance. He has done a superb job, and I hope he will continue to work hard at it, but on this issue, we disagree with him.

MR. LEHRER: But to use your favorite term, as a practical matter, what in the world is going to happen at the United Nations? You're pushing the U.N. to do one thing. He's pushing them to do another.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I think we'll get a no-fly zone enforcement resolution. That's a big mouthful. I think we'll get it this week. I think it will make it clear that the -- as far as the U.N. is concerned forceful action to enforce the no-fly zone is the next step. I think you will find that gets passed probably this week.

MR. LEHRER: Now what about -- you are also asking for the arms embargo on Yugoslavia, the old Yugoslavia, be lifted as it applies to Bosnians so they can defend themselves from the Serbs. Where are you on getting that done?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, I will tell you -- and I don't suspect many secretaries of state say this on television -- I was a complete failure on convincing anybody that we ought to lift the embargo. I got virtually nowhere in Europe on that one, so it is - - my judgment on that is we aren't going to be able to make it work.

MR. LEHRER: So nothing's really happening, is it, nothing's going to change?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: That isn't what I said.

MR. LEHRER: No, I know.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I think there's a major change in terms of the no-fly zone resolution. There certainly isn't on the arms embargo. We're going to have to spend the next few weeks trying to make it clear to Belgrade and to Milosevic that the attitude in the West is stiffening. Now, again, though, Jim, I'd be the first to concede to you there are limits to our ability to affect those events. We're trying to ratchet things up, but I wouldn't for one moment say this is something we can settle in a hurry and I think, in fact, it may take months and months and many more deaths before some of those people in Belgrade and in other parts of that country come to their senses. And it's tragic.

MR. LEHRER: Do you think the fact that you're in the last month of an outgoing administration has anything to do with this?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: In terms of it, our ability to deal with the problem in what was Yugoslavia, no. After all, the rest of the allies in NATO and the U.N. are focusing on it as well. I obviously can't speak for the Clinton administration. I can simply say we have to do what we think we can do to try to put the situation in as good shape as possible for Mr. Clinton when he becomes president, but I will, again, concede to you this is not a problem that we're going to be able to solve between now and the 20th of January, no chance.

MR. LEHRER: On another subject, Mr. Secretary, Somalia, there's an increasing confusion -- here again it may only be in the press - - about whether the U.S. troops will attempt to disarm the population more along the lines that U.N. Secretary General Boutros-Ghali has asked, or whether or not they're not going to do it the way the stated U.S. position was at the very -- can you clarify that for us.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I think I can clarify it for you, and I think there is less than meets the eye in differences here but this is not simply a press problem. The fundamental fact of the matter is that we went in there with an objective that is still the principle objective, that is to feed starving people. Now, obviously in the process of getting food to those starving people, you've got to make sure that the area's secure so you can feed 'em. There will certainly be in the process of carrying forward this humanitarian effort an attempt, and I think a substantial attempt, to disarm particularly those thugs who run around in their trucks to make sure that we gather up as many arms as we can in the process, but I must emphasize the first purpose is not to disarm; it is too feed people. It is in the process to hope that we build some stability so that the follow-on peacekeepers can, in fact, operate with some stability.

MR. LEHRER: Well, Mr. Secretary, if I heard you correctly, what you just stated was the policy when this all began.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: It still is.

MR. LEHRER: So what you're saying to me is there has been no subtle change in the last --

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: No, but, Jim, my point here again is that the policy is what I said it is, but I'm prepared to say to you that in the process of feeding people, we will gather arms; we will disarm people. But I can't say to you that we have reversed the objective and that we've gone in to disarm people and incidentally to feed 'em. It is precisely the opposite, always has been, and will continue to be.

MR. LEHRER: It was widely reported that some in the Marines and whatever, you supported that with enthusiasm and whatever. How do you feel about the mission thus far, the success of it thus far?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I think it's very clear that it is working well. I think the military are doing a superb job. We are feeding people. We're getting on into areas that are tougher to get to. I will tell you now that when this operation is over, I don't think there will be one thing that Americans should be anything but proud of. We will have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, and we'll have done it in the best possible way, with the least possible losses, and in the process I predict to you when we leave, we will leave a situation on the ground that is far more stable in which the peacekeepers can, in fact, effectively keep the peace.

MR. LEHRER: To another subject, the Middle East, was Israel wrong to deport those 415 Palestinians?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Yes. Now having said that, that is -- you can't answer the question with a flat yes. We need to understand that the Israelis have been very, very tried by what's been going on previous to this, the murder of soldiers, the killings that have gone on that they've taken and tried to react with constraint, and I can't blame them one bit for reacting to the fact that this has gone on by people, terrorists, Hamas, who have precisely intended to bring the peace process to an end. We have always said, and we continue to say that deportation is not the answer to this problem, and in this case, as your own report showed, whether you believe the 400 people who've been deported are innocent or guilty, the fact of the matter is you can't leave them wandering around in the middle of no place out there being shot from both directions. This is not something that can go on forever, and somebody's going to have to find a way to solve it.

MR. LEHRER: Are you all involved in trying to find a solution, or is this one thing the U.S. is not involved in?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: You tell me what the U.S. isn't involved in.

MR. LEHRER: Okay.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: It would make my life easier. Obviously, in this case, it is essentially in the hands of the Israelis and the Lebanese. We have been, shall I say, trying to reason with people. We'll be prepared again to do what we can to try to assist.

MR. LEHRER: Do you think there's going to be -- it's going to be solved in the next day or so?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: No, I don't think so. I'm afraid it's going to on for a while, and for everybody but particularly for Israelis who are, you know, concerned about civil rights and concerned about treating people humanely. I can't believe that they can look at those people out there in the middle of nowhere with nowhere to go and be shot at from all directions and believe in the long run that this is the way to solve the problem. I cannot believe that the Israelis in the long run will be able to sustain this. Much as I sympathize with the problems that they face day after day after day, this is not the way to solve it.

MR. LEHRER: So you think Israel should take them back?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: All right, yes, I think Israel should take them back or find some other way at least to solve this problem to remove them from this Never Never Land they're in, but since we don't believe in deportations in the first place, we obviously believe they shouldn't have done it.

MR. LEHRER: Finally, Mr. Secretary, what do you think of the decision on Friday to appoint an independent counsel to look into the Clinton passport case?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: You know, I'm getting so tired of the passport case problem that I'm glad the 20th of January is coming around. The fundamental answer to that is this is a legal issue outside my hands and what they decide they have to do is what they have to do.

MR. LEHRER: All right. On that, we will leave it, Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: A pleasure, thank you.

MR. MacNeil: Still ahead on the NewsHour, Charlayne's Somalia Diary, and the latest Clinton cabinet choices. FOCUS - SOMALIA DIARY

MR. MacNeil: Next, Charlayne Hunter-Gault's Somalia Diary. Over the weekend she and her crew went along one of the first food convoys from Baidoa to the outlying areas. They went to a village which had suffered severely from the civil war.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: The CARE convoy leaving today is heading for Bulle Barraka. We are told that this village is only 23 miles away from military, but before this day is over, it will seem as if we've taken a journey back in time to a place long ago and very far away. Local Somalis employed by CARE are in charge of the food supply, but scores of young Somali men and boys have nothing else to do and have come along for the ride. As the convoy rattles along in the relentless noonday heat, there was an almost festive air to it, occasionally bordering on the comic. But amid the joking, we were told by our interpreter that there were some ominous edges to the humor, especially when it came to exchanges about who was in charge and for how long. Even with this tenuous heat, without leaders that everyone has agreed on, the possibility of more fighting still exists in the minds of many. But today at least is peaceful as villages along the way come out to watch the convoy. So far, no convoy has been out quite this far. The plan is to make food drops at several locations, but as the day wears on, this trip wears on the convoy as the unplanned stops mount. Like the Somali people, these drivers manage in an amazing way to surmount incredible obstacles like these worn out trucks, almost totally ruined tired, and primitive schools. Some are equally creative in finding respite from the heat of the day. Others, especially the youngest, are experiencing this humanitarian mission on a more personal level. After a while, it is our turn to break down. As the Marine trucks rolled off without a hitch, just for a moment, we thought about joining the Marines. As this now hellaciously hot and dusty day lumbered on slowly, so did any resemblance to the 20th century, except for our convoy and its incongruous crew. The land we passed is said to be rich farm land, land that could abundantly feed its people but for war and for drought. We get to take it in in fits and starts. Finally, five breakdowns and five hours after our 24-mile trip began, we arrive at Bulle Barraka. Soon we meet Mohammad Adow Shobe, the village elder responsible for the region. He tells us they have been waiting for this convoy for six days. He also tells us of the many sad stories of this place. Through our interpreter, Abu Kadir, a Somali from Kenya, he first tells us that many of the women did not turn out to greet the food convoy.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Have the people suffered a lot because they haven't had the food?

INTERPRETER: So much so that the women go away out of the village during the day because they don't even have clothes and they are forced to hide their nakedness. They leave and come back at night. That's how bad it has been.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: He also tells us that many of the women are widows whose husbands have been killed during the fighting that went on for over two years. Like this woman, they wear wide head wraps.

INTERPRETER: He was just standing in front of his house and there was fighting nearby, and he was killed by a stray bullet.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Do you have children?

INTERPRETER: She has five children.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Later, Mohammad takes us to see the graves and tells us why so many have died.

INTERPRETER: He says several places have filled up already and now they have to do this.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Oh, you just started this grave site.

INTERPRETER FOR MOHAMMAD ADOW SHOBE, Village Elder, Bulle Barraka: Yeah. All the others are full, from here up to where you can see those up there, they will be that kind of pit all along. When you see the big ones, then you know that has accommodated quite a few people. When you see a small one, maybe that'll be for one or two persons, and it is full all the way up to those trees, near those out there. These which have filled up are much bigger than this, you see, and when this fills up, we will have to go somewhere else. Even though the region allows that in the event of too many deaths at the same time, you could put five or six men but there must be men together and women together and separately, therefore, you can see some of these graves will be -- will have taken in about sixty or seventy. These ones you see here are mostly drought victims, when all victims of soldiers who took away all the animals and they die of starvation, and there are others who are killed by soldiers and they are putting mass graves somewhere near the graves we have just seen. They were accused of having supported the guerrillas that were fighting against him because they belonged to his clan.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Siad Bari.

INTERPRETER FOR MOHAMMAD ADOW SHOBE: They were fighting Siad Bari, for these tribesmen were accused of providing them with food and milk and other provisions, and that was the crime.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: So they left children and wives and people behind.

INTERPRETER FOR MOHAMMAD ADOW SHOBE: There was no choice between men and women or children. They were all assembled, and some women carrying children on their backs were shot and killed, and the following day when we came back there to see, find out how we could bury them, we found some of the children on the backs of their mothers still alive.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: As we walked from the graves, we noticed the young field of millet growing around us. The elder tells us that one of the aid agencies supplied the seed, complete with fertilizer, but that it was difficult to plant much with such weak people. By the time we make it back to the center of the village, much of the food has been unloaded. This scene reminded Mohammad of the time when the village was still prosperous and how that all changed.

INTERPRETER FOR MOHAMMAD ADOW SHOBE: He says before the war this used to be the most agricultural area in the Horn of Africa, and there people did a lot of farming. They had the biggest stores, grain and millet stores, and business was booming. People looked very healthy. Then shortly before the war, the former president, Siad Bari, started scorched tactics.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Scorched earth.

INTERPRETER FOR MOHAMMAD ADOW SHOBE: Scorched earth tactics.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What was he doing?

INTERPRETER FOR MOHAMMAD ADOW SHOBE: He destroyed our farms. He killed our people, he crippled business, and when he realized that he was no longer popular among the people. He says a vehicle like this and up to 130 bags and they would load and they have about 10 gunmen on top who were supposed to be escorting the food and they would just close up. They took half and they brought the other half. What they normally would do was open a burst of gunfire between your legs to scare so that you don't talk, you don't talk again.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Because it had taken so long to get here, it was decided to leave all the food here and have the people from the nearby villages come and get it. The elder asked us to present them the first bags of food. He says there is a man in one of the villages who is 130-years-old and that he is the oldest man in Africa. He chooses his son to receive one bag. The widow I spoke with earlier was chosen to receive the other. It is a moment for these villages both bittersweet and brief, like their respite from hunger, poverty, disease, and death. FOCUS - WHO'S WHO

MR. MacNeil: Now we look at the two cabinet choices President- elect Clinton announced today. We'll also discuss the pressures from women's groups for more female cabinet members and Clinton's unapologetic response. First his choice for secretary of education, Richard Riley, a 59-year-old South Carolina lawyer who made education reform a high priority in two terms as governor.

DICK RILEY, Secretary of Education-Designate: The team will build partnerships with those in local communities and states, working on comprehensive systemic educational improvement. We will attempt to reduce the fragmentation that plagues federal education programs, and reduce the isolation between preschool, elementary, secondary, and higher education. We will try to build links between the myriad of federal programs that serve children and youth, be they health, the arts, social services, or job training.

MR. MacNeil: Joining us now are two South Carolinians familiar with Gov. Dick Riley. Tom Inman is the editorial page editor with the Greenville News. Montez Martin is the executive director of the Charleston County Housing Authority. In the early '80s, Mr. Martin worked with Riley on the business/education partnership. Mr. Martin, what kind of a man is Dick Riley?

MR. MARTIN: Well, I think to encapsulate Dick Riley's personality, he is a highly energetic person, a very honest man, a statesman, and I think one who will do this country a great deal of good and that South Carolina will be extremely proud of.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Inman, how did he do in his education reform efforts in South Carolina?

MR. INMAN: Well, he's certainly regarded here as a success and I think in many ways that he was. You have to bear in mind in South Carolina the governor essentially has a ceremonial office. The governor doesn't have real power, and what Dick Riley did was, he's a coalition builder, a consensus man. He gets on the phone early and he stays on late, and he brings people together. He does not have a strong, overbearing style of leadership, and he made it work in this environment, and he'll be a good fit with the Clinton administration.

MR. MacNeil: He fought through -- I'm sorry -- he fought through a sales tax increase which was not exactly popular and got it through, I gather, in order to support education reform.

MR. INMAN: He did. That was essential, and the first year he lost, and what he did was brought his people together and he brought more into the room, then went over the message in the second year, he won it, and he won it on strength of just low key salesmanship, and of course the idea. He's a small "d" democrat who really believes in what he's doing and especially in the potential, extraordinary potential, exceptional potential I'd say of just ordinary children.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Martin, how do you assess Dick Riley's record on education in South Carolina?

MR. MARTIN: Well, I think that what Tom Inman has said sums it up very well, but also if you look at what has happened in the United States, if you look at what South Carolina did in 1984, that Gov. Riley led, if you then look at what has happened subsequently in the United States where many states model the South Carolina legislation, then that in and of itself says what we put together here under his leadership was done well and was done right.

MR. MacNeil: What kind of political skills does he bring to Washington, Mr. Martin?

MR. MARTIN: He brings the skills of being able to reach all people across all segments. He can talk to people who are working people. He talks to politicians. He's able to talk to business people in their language. He talks to people in all levels, and he does it very, very well.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Inman, what do you know about Dick Riley that suggests, that could give him trouble in Washington?

MR. INMAN: The subject matter he's dealing with. There are many aspects of it that are practically intractable, and essentially he's going to do it by improving on the approach that's been tried since the '60s, that is, using the public school model, the bureaucratic model, to somehow motivate children, and that's a very daunting, very daunting thing. I have followed education at least since the '60s, and I have seen many things attempted with a great deal of a lot of high-minded slogans, and then they're quietly buried. There may be something new coming out of the Clinton administration that will be not only new but effective, but I'm a little -- I'm only guardedly optimistic.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. Martin, Gov. Clinton referred today to Gov. Riley's courage. What is that about?

MR. MARTIN: Well, you named part of it when you said that we've put together legislation, the Education Improvement Act, and part of that legislation was to use a tax increase to get that measure passed and funded. Now that takes courage because that was done in an election year, but it also takes a great deal of courage for the person who is presenting a piece of legislation to come to each meeting and remain with the meeting body for the entire time. For all the time that we served, I cannot remember Gov. Riley not being present at any of those meetings, and he stayed, made no matter what the question or who it came from, or how tough, and some of those meetings got pretty excited, but he was always there and he always maintained his focus.

MR. MacNeil: Well, gentlemen, thank you very much. We're going to move on now to Mr. Clinton's choice as secretary of energy. She is Hazel O'Leary, 55-years-old, executive vice president of Northern States Power Company in Minnesota.

HAZEL O'LEARY, Secretary of Energy-Designate: In many ways I feel that I've been in training for this job for about 20 years. In the public sector, I've regulated the industry broadly. I've regulated states, and in the private sector, as would have it, I've been forced to live with those regulations, and perhaps more importantly, I've seen how those regulations if not carefully crafted and balanced can impact jobs and lives and economies of people who expected and hoped for better from their government.

MR. MacNeil: And now two people who know Hazel O'Leary. LLewellyn King is publisher of the Energy Daily, a newsletter that covers energy policy and technology in Washington. Kris Sanda is the Republican-appointed commissioner of Minnesota's Department of Public Service, which is the state equivalent of the Department of Energy. Ms. Sanda, what do you think of the choice?

MS. SANDA: Oh, I'm absolutely delighted. I think Hazel O'Leary is going to be a stellar performer in the Clinton cabinet, and Minnesota is going to be very proud of Hazel O'Leary as well as all of America, I'm sure.

MR. MacNeil: Well, what is special about her that makes you so enthusiastic?

MS. SANDA: Well, I think she's a real zinger, and by that, I mean she listens before she speaks and acts. She takes other peoples and other agencies' viewpoints into consideration as she formulates her own policy. She can chew gum and walk, and she's really a classy person. I'm just very enthusiastic about Hazel O'Leary even though I'm a Republican.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. King, what do you think of the choice from the Washington perspective?

MR. KING: Well, I think Hazel O'Leary, I'd like to second what has just been said, is a truly exceptional woman by any measure. She's an iconoclast. She's full of energy. She's full of vigor. She's contributed enormously to public life. But she's taking on what may be the single most difficult job in the cabinet. The Department of Energy is riven, and it's going to be very tough for her. I think she's a splendid appointment but it's going to be an extremely difficult job.

MR. MacNeil: When you say she's an iconoclast, what is the evidence for that?

MR. KING: I've known her a long time. She's irreverent; she's amusing. She's not stuffy. She's the antithesis of stuffiness. There's a great -- you have a chance that she's opened up the window and fresh air is coming in when she comes into a meeting.

MR. MacNeil: Ms. Sanda, what would you say was her achievement in Minnesota? What has she done in her job in the private sector that impresses you?

MS. SANDA: The thing that impresses me the most about Hazel O'Leary is the fact that she was literally able to move Heaven and Earth, because last Friday Adm. Watkins indicated in a letter to the Senator --

MR. MacNeil: He's the present secretary, retiring secretary.

MS. SANDA: That's correct, of DOE. He indicated in the letter to Sen. Bennett Johnston that there's been a complete reversal on nuclear waste policy coming out of the Department of Energy. And I think, I think our Department of Public Service in Minnesota and Northern States Power represented by Hazel O'Leary was responsible for that change in policy.

MR. MacNeil: How? Explain that.

MS. SANDA: Well, they really did a flip. Hazel and I in March of last year when to the Congress to testify before the Senate on Minnesota and America's nuclear waste policy. Minnesota got into nuclear early and so consequently, we're early with our problem on what to do on nuclear waste. And Hazel and I crafted two separate pieces of testimony before Bennett Johnston's committee, and Bennett Johnston listened very carefully to both what Hazel and I had to say, and now last Friday, there has been a complete change of policy that's been announced by DOE, and frankly, I'm going to give at least 50 percent of that credit to Hazel O'Leary.

MR. MacNeil: Mr. King, tell us about Hazel O'Leary before she got to where she is now. I mean, what do you know about her life and background before that?

MR. KING: Well, she's had a very distinguished career. She was an attorney. She was an assistant prosecutor in New Jersey. She had a variety of roles in the federal government in energy, in the old Federal Energy Administration, which preceded the Department of Energy, as the consumer representative later in conservation, and then in the Carter Department of Energy she was in charge of the energy administration. It's been a pretty thorough introduction to the subject, but I think the thing we have to remember and which Hazel, I know, knows well is that the Department of Energy, four- fifths of its function has nothing to do with energy. It's a strange agglomeration. The Secretary of Energy is the nation's nuclear armory, the top employer of scientists in the world. About one-fifth of that deals with energy in the sense that we think of it as electricity or oil or natural gas. There's this huge scientific archipelago with its attendant environmental problems that will take up nearly all of any secretary's time and these are highly controversial issues in which there is no accommodation. These are people who have almost pathological beliefs on both sides. Nuclear is a fine example but drilling for oil is another one.

MR. MacNeil: Let me ask --

MR. KING: Taxing gasoline is the third.

MR. MacNeil: Excuse me interrupting. Let me ask Ms. Sanda, some environmentalists in Minnesota were told by a National Public Radio correspondent, concerned that she won't be as sensitive to the environmental aspects of energy, that somebody like Sen. Tim Wirth, who was mentioned as the possible appointment might be. What do you feel about that, having worked with her?

MS. SANDA: I've worked very closely with Hazel O'Leary, and I couldn't disagree more. I think that she's going to be exceedingly sensitive to varying points of view. I also think that she is going to bring her rich background into balance between environmentalists and utilities and rate payers, such as you and I. And I think when all is said and done, we're going to look back on Hazel O'Leary's tenure in the cabinet and be very pleased. She's a very thorough person. She's very sensitive and I think above all, she's well trained to deal with academia and to deal with the scientists on a one-to-one basis. She is a true professional.

MR. MacNeil: Well, thank you very much. At today's press conference in Little Rock, President-elect Clinton was questioned repeatedly about complaints that he's not appointed enough women and minorities to cabinet-level positions, and he was aggressively unapologetic. Here are some excerpts.

SUSAN SPENCER, CBS News: Governor, you have thus far appointed with Ms. O'Leary now two women to the cabinet, to the cabinet, itself. Women's groups, some of the, are very uncomfortable with this, and I gather sent you another letter complaining they're meeting this afternoon with Vernon Jordan, the transition director. What's your response to them? And how has the pledge to make the cabinet "look like America" hamstrung you in your selections?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: I don't feel at all hamstrung. I think I'm doing a good job picking people. I think they're good people. I don't have any quotas for anybody. I think that we'll have the most diverse cabinet that has ever served America, which is the only thing I ever said. I must say I think it is amazing that some representatives of some groups have diminished the appointments of Carol Brown and Laura Tyson. I believe that if I had appointed white men to those jobs, those people, those same people would have been counting those jobs in a very negative way. I think that is an astonishing thing. And I think that they should really reassess their own feelings about diminishing the role these women are going to have in my cabinet, in my administration, and in the future of America, first of all. Secondly, I'm not through picking the cabinet. I think that I will do exactly what I said. I think when it's all said and done, we'll have by far the most diverse administration with more people giving the opportunity to serve than ever before. The people who are doing this talking are by and large, are talking about quotas. I don't believe in quotas, and they're checking on numbers. What I tried to do is take each one of these positions and do my very best to come up with the person that was well qualified.

ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC News: Governor, do you feel they're demanding more than three women be in the cabinet. They're not talking about the sub-cabinet, because there were three women in the Bush cabinet and three women in the Reagan cabinet, and they say they want to break the glass ceiling. Do you expect that there will be more than three?

PRESIDENT-ELECT CLINTON: Yes, I do, but I think it's interesting that for purposes that they're playing quota games and math games, and they have diminished. The chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers and the director of the Environmental Inspection Agency and they would have been counting those positions against our administration, those bean counters who are doing that, if I had appointed white men to those positions, and you know that's true. I have nothing else to say about this issue.

MR. MacNeil: For some additional insight into the diversity question, we're joined now by Margaret Carlson, the Washington deputy bureau chief and White House correspondent for Time Magazine. She's been covering the transition in Little Rock. Margaret, what do you make of Clinton's response? He sounded kind of teed off.

MS. CARLSON: Well, it's, it's kind of reassuring to see the unclappable President-elect get annoyed. It's probably not so good that it's at women groups the battle of sexes I think continues. This is the first time I've seen him angry.

MR. MacNeil: Is he getting more than usual pressure from women's groups?

MS. CARLSON: Well, groups go after their friends more than they go after their enemies, and much was promised, much is expected.

MR. MacNeil: Does he have to have more women than Bush or Reagan had in their cabinets to fulfill his promise to have a cabinet look like America?

MS. CARLSON: Well, the bar is kind of at three. If you are, if someone unsympathetic to women means three, then the person sympathetic to women should name more, wouldn't you think? I mean, there is kind of a bar there that he must clear.

MR. MacNeil: Now, are any of the remaining cabinet posts, do you think, going to be filled by women?

MS. CARLSON: Well, there's the attorney general's spot, which as you know is in the top tier of cabinet positions, so if a woman gets that, it's I think quite an accomplishment, and women broke into the legal profession I think in greater numbers than into other professions. Now a woman was considered for that. A woman has turned it down because she's a judge and Patricia Walb wants to be eligible for her pension. But the other people on the list are also women, so there's, there's that one to come.

MR. MacNeil: Any others you think, might be? There's still the secretary of defense and secretary of state and what else?

MS. CARLSON: Well, we think Defense and State are going to men. It's interesting, you sometimes hear, well, that person doesn't look like a secretary of state, and the reason is she's a she. You know, there's really no other reason, but we don't have a picture of a woman as secretary of state yet. We kind of have a picture of an EPA administrator as a woman and some other things but I think it'll be a long time before we see that one.

MR. MacNeil: So the big breakthrough, if it's going to come, would be the attorney general, would it?

MS. CARLSON: Yes.

MR. MacNeil: And that would be the most senior position that had ever been held by a woman in the --

MS. CARLSON: I think so, don't you? Yes.

MR. MacNeil: I think so. I'm not sure exactly but I think so.

MS. CARLSON: And I think that could still go to a woman even though a woman has turned it down, and I think that EPA could become a cabinet position and then you will have one more because there's been a move afoot to do that.

MR. MacNeil: In a bit of his press conference that we didn't include in our excerpts, he did say, watch the way the women I've appointed to some of the sub-cabinet levels are respected within the administration and listened to in the kind of influence they have, watch the way they behave when you're counting the influence.

MS. CARLSON: Well, I think that's true. I mean he says I don't like quotas, and in fact, no one does, but you need to get in the door and then once you're in, you need to be listened to, and I think that the President-elect has given every indication that he knows how to listen to a woman. I mean, he's married to a strong woman. He stays married to a strong woman, and I think he respects them.

MR. MacNeil: What is the Tim Wirth story? I mean, it was widely circulated that the Senator from Colorado who's very big on environmental issues was, was going to be an energy -- was going to be the choice for secretary of education. Clinton strongly denied today that -- the stories that were true that they had anticipated difficulties with his confirmation and had not dropped him because of that.

MS. CARLSON: Well, I think the quota on Senators who are access peddlers has been met with Sen. Bentsen, and I think the trouble they're going to get over the $10,000 breakfast, you know, have - - break eggs with me, it costs you $10,000 to the lobbyists -- this kind of thing is going to come up at his confirmation, but he's older, been around, he's going to get confirmed. But Sen. Wirth has the S&L and cable business problem, whether it's a real problem and whether it would emerge that way at confirmation hearings, I don't know, but you know, if there's any message that the Clinton administration --

MR. MacNeil: So he really was dropped because of that in favor of Hazel O'Leary?

MS. CARLSON: Well, I think you get two things there. One, you don't get any of the problems bringing up the S&L and the cable industry, and you get a woman.

MR. MacNeil: And a black.

MS. CARLSON: And a black, wow, you know.

MR. MacNeil: In New York what they call irreverently a two-fer.

MS. CARLSON: Two-fer, but in Washington too.

MR. MacNeil: Clinton said today he was not hamstrung by his promise to produce by diversity. Is he hamstrung by it? Is it making -- I mean, people watching it very closely, is it making it extraordinarily difficult to, to fulfill that promise and do what he wants to do?

MS. CARLSON: Well, I don't think it's that difficult to fulfill. I think part of it is that when you get down to this group of people there's more, there are more people qualified than there are jobs. You look at the pool that's there. There's always more than one and it used to be that you always picked the white male. You always pick the person you feel most comfortable with which very often is a person most like yourself. Clinton doesn't seem to have that problem. On the other hand, he's going to still let chemistry play its part. Apparently in choosing Sen. Gore as vice president it came down to that hour and a half meeting.

MR. MacNeil: So in other words, the personal rapport with Mr. Clinton is more important than the race or gender or --

MS. CARLSON: Well, if you listen to his aides, they say that, you know, you can have all these things out there on the table then he spends time with the person and then that's what decides it for him. Now with Gov. Riley he's known Riley for 20 years. It's hard for anybody else to duplicate that. They have worked together in the National Governors Association, both Clintons, so they know him, they respect him, they put the education plan through the NGA. That chemistry is set and so you see why there's probably no black or Hispanic or woman who's going to get closer in than Gov. Riley.

MR. MacNeil: I see. Well, Margaret Carlson, thank you very much for joining us.

MS. CARLSON: You're welcome. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the other major stories of this Monday, a chartered Dutch jetliner crashed in Portugal, killing 54 people. In South Lebanon, Israeli-backed militia fired at more than 400 Palestinians who had been expelled from Israel. Two were wounded. On the NewsHour tonight, Sec. of State Eagleburger said Israel was wrong to deport the Palestinians and Israel should take them back. And Serbia's hard-line president appeared headed for re-election. U.S. officials said there were significant irregularities in yesterday's voting. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for tonight. We'll see you tomorrow night with a look at more Clinton cabinet appointments. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.