The MacNeil/Lehrer Report; Sinatra Hearing

[Tease]

JIM LEHRER [voice-over]: Francis Albert Sinatra. Old Blue Eyes, performs again in Las Vegas. Only, this time there was no music -- only words.

[Titles]

LEHRER: Good evening. On one level, what happened yesterday before the Nevada State Gaming Control Board clearly does not qualify as important. What does it really matter that Frank Sinatra denied he was a bad guy, and as a result will likely be able to participate in the operation of a Las Vegas casino. But there's more to it than that. Sinatra, for one thing, the skinny, bow-tied crooner of the '40s turned movie actor.

Old Blue Eyes turned combative hater of the press, the cocky friend of presidents. He's an American celebrity about whom few are neutral, a man described in testimony yesterday by actor Gregory Peck as one of the finest, most trustworthy, truthful, reliable men he had ever known; by New York Times columnist William Satire last month, as a friend of racketeers trying to buy respectability through friendship with President Reagan. It's his closeness to Mr. Reagan that makes it more than a routine show-biz of local Nevada story. Sinatra produced the inaugural gala here in Washington, January 19th. He attended the intimate White House birthday party for the President last week, and he put Ronald Reagan down as a character reference' on his gaming license application. But it was not his association with Mr. Reagan that Frank Sinatra was asked about yesterday. The questions had to do with organized crime figures Lucky Luciano. Carlo Gambino, and Sam Giancana, confessed mob hit-man Jimmy Fratianno, and the mob's alleged looting of Tarrytown, New York's Westchester Premier Theater, among other things. Sinatra in action as a singer is a familiar sight. Sinatra as a talker, a witness, is a rarity. So tonight, thanks to public station KLVX-Las Vegas, we're going to show extended excerpts from yesterday's hearing. It begins with questions about a man named Willie Moretti.

RICHARD BUNKER, Chairman, Nevada State Gaming Control Board: Did you ever have an acquaintance with Willie Moretti?

FRANK SINATRA: Very faintly. Very vaguely.

Mr. BUNKER: Could you explain what it was, if any?

Mr. SINATRA: He was a neighbor of mine when I bought a house in New Jersey, and the man from whom I bought the house, whose name I wish I could remember but I can't, was a friend of Moretti's -- or as I met him, Willie Moore. That's the man I met. And he came over and visited my wife and daughter and myself, and brought Willie Moore with him to introduce me to him.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you know of Mr. Moore's background when he was introduced to you by Mr. Moretti as Mr. Moore?

Mr. SINATRA: No. No. No. I didn't know-- I'd never seen him before.

Mr. BUNKER: And Mr.-- we'll call him Mr. Moretti. Did he ever represent you as an agent in trying to book engagements or contracts for you at any time during that period of time?

Mr. SINATRA: Never

Mr. BUNKER: Was your career at that particular stage of your life ever a topic of discussion with Mr. Moretti -- how he might be of some assistance to you?

Mr. SINATRA: Never

Mr. BUNKER: Did he ever introduce you to any nightclub owners who were booking entertainment at that particular time?

Mr. SINATRA: No. sir.

Mr. BUNKER: Early in your career, Mr. Sinatra, who did most of the agent's- type work, handling the bookings and the negotiations?

Mr. SINATRA: An agency called Rockwell and O'Keefe in New York which event- ually became--

MILTON RUDIN, Sinatra Counsel: General Artists Corporation And eventually--

Mr. SINATRA: --General Artists Corporation. They took it over.

Mr. RUDIN: --became ICM today.

Mr. SINATRA: And they were my first representatives in my career, and I stayed with those people for, oh, a good length of time, and after that Music Corporation of America began to represent me.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you have the final word -- or do artists normally have the final word on how much they will get and where they will perform? Did you have that authority?

Mr. SINATRA: Well, I don't know about how much we might-- I know where we would perform. I think most performers say I'd like to work here, and I don't want to work there, and so forth. But I think as far as money is concerned, that was usually up to the owner of the club or the hotel where we worked. If there was a going rate, a scale that they paid performers, most of us abided by that. If there was a superstar available in those days, he probably got more than the average man. But generally it was a scale that people lived by.

Mr. BUNKER: The allegation has been made, and I'm sure that you're not unfamiliar with it, that early in your career that one of the reasons you progressed was due to the efforts of some members of organized crime. How would you respond to that allega-tion?

Mr. SINATRA: Simply. It's ridiculous.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you at any time in those early years play nightclubs that to your knowledge were either owned or controlled by members or associates of what's called organized crime?

Mr. SINATRA: I could never prove that to you. Ever.

Mr. BUNKER: So, of your own knowledge, you didn't know that?

Mr. SINATRA: Right. Correct. But what I'm trying to say. sir, is that there was always gossip as to who owned it. or who ran it. but one would perjure oneself by saying. "Well. I'm sure that so-and-so owned the club."

Mr. BUNKER: But there were sometimes reason to suspect that that might have been the case?

Mr. SINATRA: It may be so, and they were-- many of these so-called nefarious people were very good customers. They came to those places which is very knowledge-able to most entertainers. That's where we go back to the picture taking again, if I may repeal that for a moment. It was common knowledge -- it is in Caesar's Palace right now ?-- where one of the members of the casino will come in and say. would you take a photograph with three Chinamen from Hong Kong, and I say fine. So you take a picture. I wouldn't know their reputation. I'm not about to ask for a sputum test because it would embarrass everybody.

Mr. BUNKER: I can understand that. At that particular time in your life, did you knowingly, and I-- in other words, know for a certainty -- that some of the people you might be associating with, or might be brought back to meet you. or that you might see in the cafes or where you were working, were members or associates of those people in organized crime?

Mr. SINATRA: Well, again, again, it was a matter of conjecture on somebody's part, what I read in newspapers and then saw faces. And then began to meet these people. But I never had anything to do with them business-wise. Rarely, rarely, socially. No connection, really, whatsoever.

Mr. BUNKER: Mr. Sinatra, there has in the past several years -- better known to you than to us. for sure -- perhaps some degree of folklore been generated in regards to you. and there are a few of those instances that we would like to talk about. One that has to do with an entertainment contract that you had with Mr. Tommy Dorsey, and at some point in time, wanted to get out of the contract. The allegation is that maybe Mr. Moretti assisted you in getting out of the contract. Could you explain to us what happened, or what transpired during the period of time?

Mr. SINATRA: Mr. Moretti or Mr. Moore had nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with my career at any time in my lifetime.

Mr. BUNKER: Mr. Woodworth -- Agent Woodworth -- could you indicate what your findings were when you investigated that allegation?

HAL WOODWORTH, Gaming Investigator: Yes. Regarding the contract, I spoke with both attorneys who negotiated the settlement of the contract. They assured me that a settlement had been made which was agreeable to all parties, more to the benefit of MCA and Tommy Dorsey than to Mr. Sinatra's.

Mr. BUNKER: Thank you. Mr. Sinatra, do you know a Mr. Joseph Fischetti?

Mr. SINATRA: Well. I knew him. He's gone now. He's dead.

Mr. BUNKER: In what capacity, and what was your relationship with Mr. Fischetti?

Mr. SINATRA: Joe Fischetti and I were just friends. I was fond of him, and he was fond of me.

Mr. BUNKER: Have you ever had any business dealing or any type of business associations with him?

Mr. SINATRA: None

Mr. BUNKER: Did you know anything of his background during the period of your friendship?

Mr. SINATRA: I knew more-- I'd read and heard more about the background of his brothers than I did about him.

Mr. BUNKER: Was there ever any inference to you by anyone that perhaps he was quite closely tied in with his brothers?

Mr. SINATRA: No. but I wouldn't have believed it anyway.

Mr. BUNKER: In what frame of reference did you know him? Just as a social acquaintance?

Mr. SINATRA: Just a social acquaintance who was a dear friend, and I liked him and it was mutual, and that's it.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you ever associate, or have any dealings with his brothers at all?

Mr. SINATRA: No. I just met them vaguely. I never knew them. Never knew them.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you have an occasion to travel with Mr. Fischetti at one time to Havana?

Mr. SINATRA: I happened to be on the same plane with him. I didn't travel with him.

Mr. BUNKER: What was the purpose of your trip to Havana?

Mr. SINATRA: To find sunshine.

Mr. BUNKER: And how long were you there?

Mr. SINATRA: About two days.

Mr. BUNKER: Did Mr. Fischetti, subsequent to your getting to Havana, introduce you to Mr. Charles Luciano?

Mr. SINATRA: No. I was introduced to Mr. Luciano by a newspaper man named Nate Gross from Chicago.

Mr. BUNKER: Was that in Havana or--

Mr. SINATRA: It was in Havana. Yes. In Havana. And obviously, I knew who Mr. Luciano was because I'd read enough about him. But everybody else did. That was the extent of my knowledge of Mr. Luciano.

Mr. BUNKER: The allegation, again, is made that on that trip, you conveyed by briefcase a sum of approximately $2 million. How do you respond to that allegation?

Mr. SINATRA: If you can find me an attache case that holds $2 million, I will give you the $2 million.

Mr. BUNKER: We found that to be a very significant problem as we checked with the mint on how much it would weigh, and how big it would be.

Mr. SINATRA: I was jesting.

Mr. BUNKER: I think it should be noted for the record that--

Mr. SINATRA: I did not.

Mr. BUNKER: You did not take it?

Mr. SINATRA: I did not.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. Did you ever entertain in any of the casinos in Havana?

Mr. SINATRA: I did not.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you. subsequent to your meeting of Mr. Luciano in Havana, ever have occasion to meet with Mr. Luciano again?

Mr. SINATRA: Never.

Mr. BUNKER: During trips to Rome and to Naples--

Mr. SINATRA: Never Mr. SINATRA: No. I did not.

Mr. BUNKER: --you never came in contact with--

Mr. SINATRA: Never

Mr. BUNKER: Did at any time in your life you live at 10051 Valley Springs Lane in North Hollywood. California?

Mr. SINATRA: I did

Mr. BUNKER: Could you offer any explanation as to why your name and that address might have been in Mr. Luciano's, possession when searched by Italian authorities?

Mr. SINATRA: I haven't the slightest idea.

Mr. BUNKER: But your testimony is that save and except the time in Havana, you had had no contact at all with Mr. Luciano?

Mr. SINATRA: I just met him at a bar and shook hands as in many cases, and that was it.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. We come to the Villa Venice Restaurant. Mr. Sinatra. Allega-tions are that Mr. Giancana possibly had a hidden interest in the ownership of the Villa Venice, and that you entertained at the Villa Venice at his request. Is that-- how would you respond to that?

Mr. SINATRA: One-third of the question is true. The other two I have no knowledge of. I entertained there. I don't know whether he had anything to do with the club, and he never asked me to entertain there. An agent asked me to entertain there.

Mr. BUNKER: What were the circumstances? Do you have any idea of the circum-stances? Did you negotiate that contract? Did your agent negotiate that contract?

Mr. SINATRA: No. my office obviously handled the contract because they usually do. I never make up contracts.

MILTON RUDIN: Let me add that I've since checked our files, as I had no clear recollection of having negotiated That contract was negotiated by Herman Citron of what was then the Park-Citron Agency which was an offshoot of MCA. and is now Chase & Park Citron. Mr. Citron has represented Dean Martin for many years, and occasionally on specific assignments, he has represented Mr. Sinatra.

Mr. BUNKER: Thank you. Mr. Rudin. Were you aware. Mr. Sinatra, while entertain-ing there that there was also the possibility, in conjunction with the restaurant, to cross the street, and be involved in some illegal gaming?

Mr. SINATRA: After about the fourth night. I think, somebody mentioned that to us. We spent about six days there, I think. I think on the fourth night I heard some kind of rumors about a dice game, and it didn't affect me. so I didn't pay any attention to it.

Mr. BUNKER: Mr. Sinatra, were you ever offered, prior to your going to the West-chester, the sum of S50.000 which they-- unknown parties agreed to pay you outside of the reportable income that a person would normally have? Were you ever offered that amount of money to go to the Westchester?

Mr. SINATRA: That's a negative.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you ever discuss with a Mr. Thomas Marson. who was one of the convicted defendants in the Westchester case, a debt of S50.(HX) that he alleged the Westchester might owe you?

Mr. BUNKER: You did not talk to him at all?

Mr. SINATRA: I did not No

Mr. BUNKER: Were you, or are you acquainted with a man by the name of Matthew Ianello?

Mr. SINATRA: I don't think so. What's his alias?

Mr. BUNKER: His alias is Mattie the Horse, [ laughter]

Mr. SINATRA: No

Mr. BUNKER: You don't know him? Okay. Mr. Rudin. do you know Mr. Ianello?

Mr. RUDIN: Yes. I do

Mr. BUNKER: Did Mr. Ianello ever contact you in regards to tickets or any type of financial agreement, or remuneration from the Westchester?

Mr. RUDIN: Not in connection with any remuneration. He made a request to a man who handles our limousine service if he could buy some tickets.

Mr. BUNKER: And did he subsequently buy tickets?

Mr. RUDIN: I think he bought some tickets for Mort West.

Mr. BUNKER: And they were accounted for and there were--

Mr. RUDIN: Accounted for in the Burns Report right to the penny.

Mr. BUNKER: Thank you very much.

Mr. RUDIN: He was a potential customer for Sinatra concerts, sir.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. Mr. Sinatra, do you know a Mr. Louis Pacella?

Mr. SINATRA: Yes, very well

Mr. BUNKER: Would you describe him as a good friend?

Mr. SINATRA: Thai's right

Mr. BUNKER: Did he ever discuss with you appearing at the Westchester Theater?

Mr. SINATRA: Yes, he was the first man to invite me to perform at the Theater. And I asked him some questions about what it seated, what type of building it was -- was it in the round, or was it onstage, and so on and so forth, and he explained it to me; and I said. well, we'll see what we can do about it. And I think in subsequent months we found the calendar to be open, and then I think Mr. Rudin took charge and made the deal.

Mr. BUNKER: Is he the type of gentleman-- or did he have a type of background that one might be aware of. with the type of friendship you had?

Mr. SINATRA: Well. I know what you're saying-- I know what you're saying. Mr. Chairman, but I can't attest to that, because I've never been present when-- if he had any form of activity. I've never been present. He had a restaurant in New York, and I visited very often. I liked it. it was good food, and I became fond of him. and that was the extent of my friendship with him.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. And you were aware undoubtedly that at some point in that Westchester incident, he was convicted of--

Mr. SINATRA: Yes. I am well aware of it.

Mr. BUNKER: --of not reporting some of the income.

Mr. SINATRA: Well aware of it.

Mr. BUNKER: From what you've said to us. I would conclude that it would be your testimony that you received then, no illegal money from any means in your--

Mr. SINATRA: I have never in my life. sir. received any illegal monies.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. And you--

Mr. SINATRA: I've had to work very hard for my money, thank you.

Mr. BUNKER: And you didn't knowingly aid in and abet the circumstances that were going on at the Westchester? At least, with your knowledge?

Mr. SINATRA: That's correct.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. Did you ever attempt to influence the testimony of any de-fendant or witness?

Mr. SINATRA: No. sir

Mr. BUNKER: And I would refer particularly to Mr. Pacella. The answer is still in the negative?

MILTON RUDIN: Oh. yes. sir. I mean, yes sir. the answer is in the negative.

Mr. BUNKER: Mr. Pacella on trial was asked by the Assistant United States Attorney, and I quote, "By way of background, do you know an individual by the name of Frank Sinatra?" Mr. Pacella invoked his Fifth Amendment rights at that question, and Mr. Pacella was subsequently granted immunity, and notified his answer could not be used against him. But yet he still stood on his Fifth Amendment privilege not to discuss that one particular question. He was asked the question by both the fore lady of the grand jury, and by the U S District Court judge, and still he refused to answer. And because of that refusal to answer, was incarcerated. Do you have any knowledge, Mr. Rudin and Mr. Sinatra, why Mr. Pacella would take that position and refuse to answer that question?

Mr. RUDIN: I'd like to answer that from the standpoint of a lawyer.

Mr. BUNKER: Please do.

Mr. RUDIN: That report in the press or elsewhere is totally unfair, as any lawyer knows. If someone is going to plead the Fifth Amendment, they give their name and perhaps their address, and thereafter every answer is, "I refuse to answer." If you ask them, do you know the President of the United States, "I refuse to answer." Do you know who is the President ? "I refuse to answer," under a legal theory that you might waive your privilege by opening up any doors -- I [was] not present. I have not examined the record; I take your assurance that that is what happened -- but it would be my suspicion, sir, that he was probably asked 40 questions to which he gave the same answer -- "I refuse to answer." So why Mr. Pacella elected to exercise his Fifth Amendment rights after being given immunity-- that's something you'd have to ask Mr. Pacella. J don't know him that well, and I don't know what else is involved. I am responding to you as a lawyer.

Mr. BUNKER: I thought it important to have it on the record, and give you an opportunity to respond if you possibly thought that there was some reason for it.

Mr. RUDIN: Well, I can only respond as a lawyer with general knowledge rather than with specific knowledge.

Mr. BUNKER: And our information that we received in the investigation was that that was the only question that was asked. Now that would be subject to going back and of course reviewing the record. Mr. Sinatra, have you been notified to appear before any federal grand jury or any other type of jury in regards to any additional charges in the Westchester case?

Mr. SINATRA: None whatsoever.

Mr. BUNKER: Mr. Rudin?

Mr. RUDIN: My answer would be similar. None.

Mr. BUNKER: Thank you. Have you ever, Mr. Sinatra, been notified by federal authorities that you're under investigation for any violation of the law in regards to the Westchester Theater incident?

Mr. SINATRA: I was not, never.

Mr. BUNKER: Mr. Rudin?

Mr. RUDIN: No. Neither as to Mr. Sinatra nor as to myself.

Mr. BUNKER: Thank you. We've heard a great deal about photographs today. And we would like to give you, Mr. Sinatra, an opportunity to respond to a photograph that has received a great deal of notoriety -- one in which you appear with Mr. Carlo Gambino and several of his associates, some of which were also principles in the Westchester Theater. I wonder if you could explain to us, again for the record, just general terms as you recall the incident, why it happened and how it possibly can happen?

Mr. SINATRA: I'd be happy to. I was asked by one of the members of the Theater -- who he was doesn't come to me. I don't think it's that important. He told me that Mr. Gambino had arrived with his granddaughter whose name, perchance, happened to be Sinatra. Her daddy is a doctor in New York, and we're not related at all. And he said they would like to take a picture. And I said fine. They came in and they took a picture of the little girl, and before I realized what happened, there were approximately eight or nine men standing around me, and several other snapshots were made. That is the whole incident that took place.

Mr. BUNKER: Did you have any acquaintance with Mr. Gambino prior to that? Had you ever met him?

Mr. SINATRA: No, I never did. Not before nor after that.

Mr. BUNKER: Okay. Did you have any information about any of the people that were in that photograph with you? Did you know any of them by sight?

Mr. SINATRA: Well, Mr. Marson, I think, was in the picture, whom I knew 'cause he was one of the owners of the club, and I knew him. And I later found out that-- I was introduced to somebody named Jimmy, and I later found out it was this fink. The Weasel, so I didn't know him at the time.

Mr. BUNKER: Jimmy Fratianno?

Mr. SINATRA: Yeah

Mr. BUNKER: Subsequently, did you have an opportunity after this picture received some degree of notoriety to team what the background was of some of those people?

Mr. SINATRA: No

Mr. BUNKER: That you were there '

Mr. SINATRA: No

Mr. BUNKER: As of today, you do not know what some of the backgrounds-

Mr. SINATRA: I didn't even know their names, let alone their backgrounds. I didn't even know most of their names.

Mr. BUNKER: I mean subsequent to that -- in the last little while?

Mr. SINATRA: No. No. I haven't.

Mr. BUNKER: You still today don't know?

Mr. SINATRA: Nobody asked me about it. and I haven't discussed it with anybody.

Mr. RUDIN: Mr. Bunker, if I may intercede for a moment on the matter of pictures. We have put together a group of backstage pictures and other pictures of Mr. Sinatra so that there's some perspective of what happens backstage.

Mr. SINATRA [to Rudin]: May I do that, please?

Mr. RUDIN: Yes

Mr. SINATRA: This represents 1000. maybe a minimal amount of photographs that I've taken with people who come backstage. This is a picture with Congressman Lewis -- Jerry Lewis -- of Palm Springs, and my wife. The Prime Minister of Israel and Gregory Peck. A little boy who was the muscular dystrophy model for the year of 1975. A photograph of my wife and myself and Mr. Sadat, President of Egypt, and his wife. A photograph of myself with a wife and hostage's children just before they were released and at the gala rehearsal in Washington backstage. Another one of Mrs. Sadat and some children at her hospital in Egypt. We are actually only thinking about backstage. Here's one with Mayor Beame -- former Mayor Beame -- and his wife and my wife back at the Westchester Theater, the backstage. At Westchester Theater. Congressman Ed Meyer. I believe, of New York. These unsavory looking characters, if you can see it. are San Francisco Police Department inspectors. There are four of them. If you looked at this picture without my telling you. it's frightening. I mean it.

Mr. BUNKER: You think they could be misinterpreted for something else? Mr. Sinatra, let me just say this--?

Mr. SINATRA: We don't have to go through this. You know what we're talking about, right?

Mr. BUNKER: It's a personal aside, and I just say it because I feel strongly about it. It's a sad commentary. I guess, on our time that those things really aren't newsworthy.

Mr. SINATRA: That's true

Mr. BUNKER: I guess it's the Gambinos and the Fratiannos of the world that are newsworthy, and I think that's extremely unfortunate -- not in your particular ease, as a rule, but just in general. I think that's very unfortunate. But needless to say-

Mr. SINATRA: Excuse me. Mr. Bunker. I'd like to add to that theory of yours by saving to you I rescind tin remark about taking sputum tests. I will, from now on. Or a blood test, or something.

Mr.. BUNKER: Well, certainly, one takes the opportunity to review the background of all of the people in that picture, save and excepting yourself, and it is quite a who's who of what's what, I guess, in the area of organized crime.

LEHRER: After hearing Sinatra's testimony, the Gaming Board voted in his favor. The Board's parent organization, the Nevada Gaming Commission, is expected to officially grant Sinatra the license when it meets next Thursday. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.