The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MacNeil: Good evening. Leading the news this Friday, the African National Congress said it is ready to meet South African Pres. DeKlerk, West Germany announced plans for a united Germany with membership in NATO, the U.S. trade deficit narrowed in 1989 to its best showing in five years. We'll have details in our News Summary in a moment. Judy Woodruff is in Washington tonight. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: After the News Summary, we have a News Maker interview [NEWS MAKER] with Sec. of State James Baker just back from trips to Moscow and Ottawa, where German reunification and troop cuts topped the agenda. Then we update the growing independence movement [UPDATE - BREAKING AWAY] in one Baltic nation that is moving away from Moscow's control. And we end with a Charlayne Hunter-Gault [CONVERSATION] conversation with South Africa's anti-apartheid leader, Nelson Mandela. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MacNeil: South Africa's main anti-apartheid group, the African National Congress, said today it wants to begin talks with the government. They would be the first formal talks ever between the two sides. ANC leaders issued the call in the communique from their headquarters in Lusaka, Zambia, where they've been in exile for the past 30 years. We have a report from Lusaka by Jeremy Thompson of Independent Television News.

MR. THOMPSON: The ANC's leaders in exile will soon be going home to South Africa. As they wound up their first legal meeting in 30 years, they made a firm commitment to see Pres. DeKlerk as soon as possible. A delegation of leaders based inside and outside South Africa will offer to meet him to try and create a climate for negotiations to start. Whether Nelson Mandela will be directly involved in those talks was a question left unanswered. He still has no official position inside the ANC.

ALFRED NZO, African National Congress: Nelson Mandela is a leader of the people of South Africa and one of the important leaders of the African National Congress.

MR. THOMPSON: The ANC now plan to open offices in South Africa but they insist sanctions should be maintained to keep pressure on the Pretoria regime.

MR. MacNeil: Nelson Mandela is expected to travel to Lusaka next week to meet with his fellow ANC leaders. He was interviewed today by Charlayne Hunter-Gault who asked him for his reaction to the ANC decision to begin talks with the government.

MR. MANDELA: Well, that is a very logical step. That is what I have been striving to achieve over the last three years and I'm very happy about that development.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Is it break -- I mean, how would you characterize it, how would you describe it?

MR. MANDELA: It is not a real breakthrough. What is going to be a breakthrough is the decision of the government to remove the last obstacles to negotiations, which is the lifting of the state of emergency in its totality and the release of political prisoners, now that will be a breakthrough.

MR. MacNeil: We'll have the rest of Charylane's extended interview with Mandela later in the program. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: The West German government today unveiled a plan for reunification with East Germany. Under the proposal the United Germany would include 16 states and be a member of NATO. West German Defense Minister Gerhard Stoltenberg said membership in the Western Alliance was essential. That aspect of the plan is likely to be controversial since Soviet officials have insisted publicly on a neutral state. Also today East German Prime Minister Hans Modrow was in Warsaw trying to sell the idea of German reunification to the Polish government. Polish officials want assurances the unified Germany will not threaten Poland's borders. Modrow met with Polish prime minister Tadeusz Mazowiecki, who pressed his demand that Poland be included in any reunification talks. Modrow said he supported that position.

MR. MacNeil: Ethnic violence spread to another Soviet republic today. According to Radio Moscow, there was fighting in Uzbekistan between Muslims and Armenians. Extra Soviet troops have been sent to the area and a curfew has been imposed. There was no word on casualties. The Soviet Republic of Lithuania today celebrated National Independence Day as an official holiday for the first time since it was annexed by the Soviet Union 50 years ago. Tens of thousands of Lithuanians gathered in major cities throughout the republic for the celebration. In the capital, Vilnius, about 2,000 marched to the parliament and turned in their military enlistment cards to protest being required to serve in the Soviet military. We will have a full report from Lithuania later in the program.

MS. WOODRUFF: In economic news, the Commerce Department reported an improvement in the U.S. trade deficit. It fell over 30 percent in December to $7.16 billion. That brought the annual figure for 1989 to its lowest level since 1984, down 8.4 percent, to $108.6 billion. On the negative side, the Federal Reserve today reported a drop in industrial production. It slipped 1.2 percent in January. Temporary layoffs in the auto industry and low output from utilities contributed to the decline.

MR. MacNeil: Former Pres. Reagan had his day in court today. He waved to reporters as he arrived at the Los Angeles federal courthouse this morning, but the media were not allowed inside as Mr. Reagan was questioned all day about his knowledge of the Iran- Contra affair and his instructions to his national security advisor Jim Poindexter. Poindexter was present. The videotaped deposition will be used in Poindexter's trial which begins March 5th. The judge in the case said yesterday he will make the tape available to news organizations as soon as any sensitive security information has been deleted. That's our summary of the news. Now it's on to Sec. of State James Baker, Lithuanian independence, and Nelson Mandela. NEWS MAKER

MS. WOODRUFF: We turn first tonight to a News Maker interview with Secretary of State James Baker who returned to Washington last night after a historic week and a half of diplomacy. He made visits to Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union, Romania, Bulgaria, and then Canada for a major East-West meeting. There the Secretary of State helped the U.S. and the Soviet Union and their allies reach agreements on troops in Europe and the reunification of Germany. And yesterday Sec. Baker went with Pres. Bush to the drug summit in Colombia. Mr. Secretary, it's been quite a week and we thank you for being with us.

JAMES BAKER, Secretary of State: Thank you Judy and I am glad to be here.

MS. WOODRUFF: Let me go to the drug issue first because that is where you were yesterday. What new actions is the Administration prepared to take as a result of this Summit?

SEC. BAKER: I think the significant thing about the Summit is that this is the first time that you had producing and consumer nations get together on a coordinated strategy to attack this problem. Heretofore we have spent most of our time arguing whether the problem was one of supply or one of demand. One of the things that the President pointed out in the meeting yesterday is that we are trying to deal with this problem on both ends. In other words we are increasing our 1991 budget for instance, I think, six or seven times over what it was two years ago in terms of our assistance to the producing nations. At the same time that we are increasing the budget for dealing with the demand side in the United States.

MS. WOODRUFF: So it was a chance to get together and show the flag essentially?

SEC. BAKER: Well it was more than just showing the flag. The Heads of State signed a document, the Document of Cartagena, which really represents a coordinated and integrated comprehensive approach to the Drug problem.

MS. WOODRUFF: It was reported today that you are going to address a special session of the United Nations next week on the drug question. Do you have something new that you want to say there?

SEC. BAKER: I am going to make the point that this is an important part now of America's foreign policy. The drug problem is becoming more and more important to us in terms of the way we conduct our foreign policy and that is primarily the point we will be making at the United Nations. Most all nations are represented that have any problem whatsoever in terms of drugs whether they are producing nations, transit nations, or consumer nations.

MS. WOODRUFF: The big story, I guess, of this past week was Germany and this agreement that was reached at the meeting in Ottawa between you and the Ministers of the Soviet Union, the two Germanies, France and Britain to set up a frame work for getting together and working out this new Germany. This is obviously surprised a lot of people. I think that it may have even surprised some of you who were involved. Why is this happening so fast?

SEC. BAKER: The establishment of a frame work or mechanism for dealing with the external aspects of Germany unification is happening fast because the process of unification is happening fast on the ground. The East German elections are now only one month away. It's quite probable that they will vote heavily in favor of unification. Economic unification between the two Germanies is taking place as we talk here, defacto.

MS. WOODRUFF: You mean because so many East Germans have moved to the West?

SEC. BAKER: Well because they are moving and because frankly the East Germans and the West Germans are agreeing on certain economic steps. They are talking about a common currency. They are talking about a whole host of different economic measures. So it is important to recognize the fact that German unification is going to happen and it is going to happen a lot quicker than people anticipated as recently as last December. And there should be a mechanism or frame work in place for dealing with the external aspects of that.

MS. WOODRUFF: Now along those lines what is the relationship? I know that so many of the details have yet to be worked out. But what is to be the relationship between the new Germany and the East and the West? In whose camp is this new Germany?

SEC. BAKER: Well the position of the United States and I am delighted to see once again confirmed here today the position of the West German Government is that the unified Germany should be a member of the NATO Alliance. At the same time I think that it is recognized by most that there needs to be some sort of security guarantees or assurances looking Eastward that give the East European nations and the Soviet Union for that matter some consolation with respect to a unified Germany as a member of NATO.

MS. WOODRUFF: What do you mean consolation? They are saying now that they don't want this new Germany to be part of NATO.

SEC. BAKER: That is right. That has been their public position. It is the strong view of the United States that it should be a member of NATO. It is the view of the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany that it should be a member of NATO. But there can be some arrangements I think discussed and looked at and considered that would provide, for instance, no NATO forces could be stationed on the territory that is now represented by the German Democratic Republic. Assurances of that nature.

MS. WOODRUFF: Is that enough to satisfy the Soviets and the Poles and so on?

SEC. BAKER: Well I don't know we will have to wait and see.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well as I mentioned the Poles and we just heard this report that the East German Prime Minister was visiting in Poland to try to reassure them and to get them on board. They are saying that they want to be part of these talks.

SEC. BAKER: Yes.

MS. WOODRUFF: But the formula has been just the Two plus Four, just the six countries. Why don't the countries that were overrun by Germany in World War II have a voice in it?

SEC. BAKER: Well first of all you have to come up with a mechanism that is workable and you have to come up with a mechanism that the parties that have legal rights and responsibilities agree to. The Two plus Four mechanism was one that the four powers and the two Germanies could agree upon. It is one that gives a role to all who have a legal right or responsibility. I should add though that the very brief statement that was put out in Ottawa contained a provision that was put in there at the request of the Polish Government, the Soviet Union asked that provision be included and it was included. That said that this would be done, I can't remember the exact wording but with due regard for neighboring countries.

MS. WOODRUFF: You caused a bit of a stir in Moscow when you said that in a news conference, I think that it was last Sunday night, that this arrangement for the new Germany might be an association with NATO as opposed to membership. What did you mean by that?

SEC. BAKER: I also said at that news conference don't read anything in to that I said. And you shouldn't read anything in to that because we thing that the unified Germany should be a member of NATO. At the same time as I just explained there will have to be some sort of security guarantees or assurances with respect to the stationing of NATO forces on the Territory of the German Democratic Republic.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why do there have to be NATO troops in Germany, I mean, who is the enemy?

SEC. BAKER: What you are really asking me is why is it important that the unified Germany be a member of NATO. And the answer to that is that the NATO Alliance has provided stability and has in effect kept the peace for 40 years and I think that it is the feeling of many, well me say the felling of all in the West, and the feeling of most in the East that there would be an element and degree of stability afforded by the membership of a unified Germany in NATO.

MS. WOODRUFF: And that brings us naturally to this next question or agreement that was announced this past week at virtually the same time that the Soviets have now apparently agreed to President Bush's and your proposal to reduce troop levels in Central Europe to 195,000 but we would get an additional 30,000.

SEC. BAKER: Out side of the Central Zone. That is correct.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why did the Soviets come around on that in the last minute?

SEC. BAKER: I think that they probably accepted the proposal because they to some degree see that there is pressure building on them to remove their forces in any event. They do have economic problems. The quickest benefit to their economic problems would come from a conventional forces agreement, conventional forces reduction. So I think that these are the things that motivated them.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why is that a benefit to them in what way? They could bring the troops home and then what?

SEC. BAKER: Under the agreement they will have to be demobilized but it will mean a significant reduction in what they will be spending on their armed forces because let's not forget now that if we come down to a 195,000 in the Central Zone the Soviets come down to a 195,000 they will have to be reducing a great deal more than the United States will. They will take disproportionately greater reductions to some extent as the consequence of that save some money.

MS. WOODRUFF: Did you expect them to come around as quickly as it did?

SEC. BAKER: No frankly we did not think that it would come as quickly. Now we did feel that they were very anxious to get a conventional forces agreement and they have said this, they want one. We want one. With this agreement on manpower we now have as the major obstacle between us the question of aircraft and we continue to be quite far apart on the question of aircraft.

MS. WOODRUFF: The Soviet spokesman Gennadi Gerasimov was quoted today in an interview as saying that even these troops levels in a matter of months become irrelevant as the political climate in Eastern Europe and Western Europe for that matter continues to change. Are we looking at a period where may be in the next year, year and a half you are going to see even further cuts?

SEC. BAKER: No not as far as the United States is concerned. This is the level at which we think we can continue to maintain the necessary military posture and the necessary military strategy and you have to remember when the United State leaves. When we pull troops down we pull them back across an ocean. When the Soviet Union pulls troops down they simply pull them back perhaps to the European part of the Soviet Union. They will have to demobilize but they will still have that manpower there in the Soviet Union.

MS. WOODRUFF: But again you have a Soviet Union that is rapidly converting to democracy by all appearances or what ever form of democracy that it will turn to. You have Eastern Europe which is turning away from the Soviet Union and I know that you say there is a need for stability but won't the need for those troops lessen as time goes on?

SEC. BAKER: I think that we would hope that they would lesson but that doesn't mean that we should now contemplate reductions to a greater degree than those that we are talking about. These are after all quite significant and substantial reductions from where we are and we shouldn't forget either that the Soviet Union not with standing what now appears to be very good intentions and everything else still remains a very heavily armed super power. That is a fact of life and we shouldn't lose sight of that. That is not to question in any way their motives or the fact that they are reforming and that they do want to move to a democratic type of experience.

MS. WOODRUFF: I think that it seems odd that some people on the one hand while they are making these would appear to be enormous moves in our direction that we expected them to make yet another concession on troop reduction?

SEC. BAKER: Well I think that it is important, one thing that this arrangement does do is it locks in the principle of a symmetry. That is the idea that the United States could have more in Europe overall than the Soviet Union because remember they will have quite a bit in the European part of the Soviet Union and quite a bit as well in the non European part of the Soviet Union. We will be across an ocean.

MS. WOODRUFF: Talk about for a moment if you will about Gorbachev the man. You were with him in meetings in the last few days. he has been through an incredible period just recently with ethnic violence in the Southern Republics and the Baltic Republics threatening independence. How is he weathering all this?

SEC. BAKER: I think he is weathering it very well. There is no question that he is confronted, he and his colleagues and associates are confronted with some very very difficult problems. The plenum which they were conducting the day I arrived in Moscow went over one day. It ran over time. That is an indication I think of the controversy and debate that was encompassed in that plenum but he came our of that meeting I think strengthened in terms of his political power. Now that does that mean as he consolidates more and more power un to himself he will have more and more responsibility to deal with these very very difficult problems and the ethnic problems, the economic problems are extraordinarily difficult.

MS. WOODRUFF: To some people that is a paradox. On the one hand you see a Soviet Union that is moving to a multi party system away from the one party Communist monopoly. On the other hand you have one man who seems to be massing more and more authority un to himself.

SEC. BAKER: He is amassing more in the sense that they are now talking about moving to a presidency but remember this that the newly constituted legislative body in the Soviet Union is gaining power and what they are really doing is moving away from this party system. You know a year ago when I went to a conference in Vienna I sat across the table from a Polish delegation and I was just amazed that the Polish delegation sat there and debated among themselves whether or not they should go for an American style presidency or a French style Presidency in Poland. I thought that was remarkable and now we see a similar debate really going on in the Soviet Union. They are talking about moving to an Executive Presidency much like the French or American Presidency.

MS. WOODRUFF: How did you feel witnessing that?

SEC. BAKER: I was really very struck by the fact that the change was so significant and so substantial and I really felt like I was watching some history in the making.

MS. WOODRUFF: How much control does Gorbachev have. I know that you are saying there are enormous challenges facing him. Is he in a position to make things happen if he wants to?

SEC. BAKER: The fact that this plenum went an extra day I think indicates that there is more and more controversy and more and more opposition perhaps building up. He handled it. He clearly was in control and I don't think there is any question but that he is very much in control. The real question is the degree to which having that control puts an added burden on him to solve the problems that exist in the Soviet Union because now people will say you should solve it you have all the power.

MS. WOODRUFF: Did he personally express to you the burden or whatever it was?

SEC. BAKER: No I don't want to give that impression. I think that the difficulty of the problems is there for all to see. The fact that they are dealing with they do quite openly, they are candid in admitting they have these problems but that they are addressing them they are dealing with them. They are quite confident that peristroika is going to succeed and they remain firmly committed to this process of openness and peristroika.

MS. WOODRUFF: And you think that he is popular enough to pull this off?

SEC. BAKER: Who knows but clearly there is no question but what he now has control and he consolidated that control as a consequence of this plenum.

MS. WOODRUFF: Just quickly you were also in Bulgaria and Romania and you met with opposition leaders there and I am told that you got some sense that the struggle that is still underway there to work out the reform process. What was your impression coming away. I mean how different a situation are we looking at those countries Bulgaria and Romania from what we see in Poland ..

SEC. BAKER: And Czechoslovakia for instance?

MS. WOODRUFF: And Czechoslovakia.

SEC. BAKER: Well they have a greater way to go in Bulgaria and particularly in Romania. They don't really have a tradition, they don't have a democratic experience or tradition. It is new to them. I spent frankly more time with the opposition groups in both countries than I did with the Government.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why did you do that?

SEC. BAKER: Well because I think that it is important that these Governments know and this is the message that I carried. You want to improve relations with the United States we would like to improve our relations with you but it is very important that you follow through on your commitment to conduct full, free and fair elections. That you follow through on your commitment to democracy. And we have to see that happen before we can go a long ways towards improving relations and that is the reason I spent the time that I did with the opposition.

MS. WOODRUFF: Did you give them some political advice?

SEC. BAKER: Well I didn't give them political advice in the sense of ABC.

MS. WOODRUFF: I mean that you do have had political experience.

SEC. BAKER: We made the point I think that they should not splinter in to too many groups, I mean in one of these countries I thinkthere are now 34 parties that have just formed and they will be much more effect, of course, as a united opposition. Time is moving so quickly over there. I want to relate to you something that I thought was very moving. In Czechoslovakia we had a reception at the American Embassy and I was introduced to the Deputy Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia a Lawyer, who said I want to thank you for what you did for me and he was referring to the fact that in September as recently as in September at the United Nations I met with the Czechoslovak foreign minister and I raised with him the status of this man who was then in jail as a dissident. And as a consequence of my having raised this to the Czechoslovak foreign minister he was freed and five or six months later he is the Deputy Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia. That is the kind of change that is taking place in Eastern Europe and that is the kind of rapidity with which we are seeing it happen.

MS. WOODRUFF: Just one quick question about Nicaragua, and I'm skipping around the world, if Daniel Ortega were to win this election later this month and the UN observers who will there say it's fair and square, will the United States begin to withdraw some of the penalties that we've imposed on them?

SEC. BAKER: I was testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee just before I left and I was asked that question and what I've said is that it's not enough simply that there be a fair and free election. First of all, the United States has to make its own judgment about that. We really, since they have denied our observers the right to come into the country, they've not given them visas, we've got to decide that, and secondly, they've got to stop exporting subversion and revolution through support to the FMLN so they've got a ways to go I think and we'd want to see at the very least both of those things happens.

MS. WOODRUFF: Mr. Secretary, we appreciate your coming by.

SEC. BAKER: Thank you, Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Still ahead on the Newshour, a report from Lithuania, and a conversation with Nelson Mandela. UPDATE - BREAKING AWAY

MR. MacNeil: Next an update on the unending troubles on the edges of the Soviet Union. Today in one of the most restless republics, Lithuania, there were demonstrations in several cities. Lithuanians were observing their country's brief period of independence before it was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1940. Next week there will be elections in Lithuania, and they're expected to provide a bigger push to Lithuanian independence. Correspondent Charles Krause reports on today's demonstrations in the city of Kaunas.

MR. KRAUSE: There was no violence as there had been in other Soviet republics, only peaceful demonstrations. But Mikhail Gorbachev could take no comfort from today's Independence Day celebrations in Lithuania, in Kaunas, and in other cities throughout the republic. Lithuanians gathered by the tens of thousands. Their mood was somber but defiant. Despite continuing threats from Moscow, Lithuanians say they're more determined than ever. Later this year, they fully expect to regain the independence they lost at the beginning of World War II. Newspaper Editor Arvydas Jouzaicis is the founding member of Siuris, which has defied Soviet pressure to become Lithuania's leading pro- independence group. Is there anything that Mikhail Gorbachev could do that would derail or change the movement toward independence in Lithuania?

ARVYDAS JOUZAICIS, Independence Leader: Practically nothing, because we see that there is no placeto return. The Soviet Union is exploding in different parts of its territories and economy is raising the shortages even in meal and in everyday lives is so great that we have no place to return and to continue our dangerous and brave political life and development towards returning to Europe, to market economy as it was in the period before the Second World War, it's absolutely necessary.

MR. KRAUSE: John Rackauskas is president of the Lithuanian Research & Study Center in Chicago. He's been in Vilnius, Lithuania's capital, this past week.

JOHN RACKAUSKAS, Lithuanian Research & Study Center: Everybody that I've been talking to, there is a deep sense of excitement in terms of what is happening here. At the same time, that excitement is definitely tinged with a sense of apprehension as to what the future holds, specifically economically, what measures will Moscow take to fight back against the Lithuanian movement for independence. Since you are here and I am here and on the radio and everywhere else, you can't help but hear all of the things that are going on in the parliament today, in the meetings. Yesterday they were deciding on trying to declare Lithuanian independence. We're talking about the money, we're talking about everything, but that is raising all very high hopes, but I think it is still tinged with a lot of apprehension in terms of what is going to happen in the next two or three years.

MR. KRAUSE: The strength of nationalist feeling was most evident today in Kaunas, Lithuania's second largest city. There thousands turned out to hear Cardinal Vincentes Slabkibiches demand freedom and independence for Lithuania. The Roman Catholic Bishop also dedicated a monument to those who died fighting for Lithuania's independence from Soviet Russia between 1918 and 1921. The Lithuanians won that war only to be overrun by Stalin in 1940. Today's ceremony was poignant, filled both with hope and apprehension. The feeling here is that Lithuania is on the verge once again of winning its independence from the Soviet Union. Yet, Lithuanians can never forget that the Red Army has invaded and occupied their country twice in this century. But if the mood in Kaunas was somber and reflective, the mood in Vilnius was defiant. Lithuania's Communist Party has already declared its independence from Moscow. Yesterday Communist Party Algerdes Pazowskas went one step further. He called for negotiations with Gorbachev to free Lithuania once and for all from Soviet rule. But more and more Lithuanians are growing impatient and may not be willing to wait for negotiation. Tonight hundreds of young men turned in their draft cards. It was a direct challenge to Soviet authority. Then joined by thousands of others, they marched through the streets. Their demand, an end to Soviet domination. Their chant, "Red Army, go home.". CONVERSATION

MR. MacNeil: Finally tonight Charlayne Hunter-Gault's conversation with Nelson Mandela who was released from 27 years in prison last Sunday. They talked today in the garden of Mandela's home in Soweto.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Let me put a proposition to you. You are the son of tribal chief, the oldest son, born and bred to leadership. What in your background enabled you to have the stamina, do you think, and the fortitude and everything else it took to withstand 27 years behind bars?

MR. MANDELA: I have thought out many similar questions which have been put to me that I find it difficult to answer this question, but I think that firstly at the end of the trial we were given a life sentence, sentence of life imprisonment. We, nevertheless, felt that we had won and that the government had lost because of the manner in which we conducted our defense, and secondly, we received a tremendous support, both locally and from overseas, messages of solidarity from heads of states, from prime ministers, from governments, from influential organizations and individuals, and that support continued right through our period of imprisonment. And I think that contributed very largely to the high state of moral that existed on the island despite very harsh experiences that we had at least at the beginning of our period of imprisonment.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Did they do things to you that made you feel like a prisoner?

MR. MANDELA: Oh, yes, at the beginning the treatment was very harsh and even brutal.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: In what way?

MR. MANDELA: In the sense that many prisoners were actually assaulted. There was a Mr. Andrew Masano who was a lecturer at Forto who was assaulted and had his shoulder broken. Another fellow, they dug a hole in the sand and buried him, except they left his head and face exposed so that he could breathe. But when he cried bad for water to drink because of the scorching sun, they urinated into his mouth.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Did you see this?

MR. MANDELA: Well, I was not there at the time, but it is something that is well known.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How did you react to that? I mean, what did you do? What could you do?

MR. MANDELA: Well, it was difficult to do anything, because this group of people was not in our section. The island was divided into a number of section and those whom they thought were leaders and well known, they were put in a different section. There were always about 20, 25, sometimes up to 30 prisoners who were put aside in their own section.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And you were isolated?

MR. MANDELA: Yes, we were isolated. And in the other camp, there was, the numbers varied between a thousand and two thousand. Now this happened in that section, but nobody doubted that this happened.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Were they playing psychological games with you? I mean, did they attempt that?

MR. MANDELA: Oh, yes, they did.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Like what?

MR. MANDELA: You know, sometimes we go out to pull weed from the sea. It's a very cold day. There is a hot water system, but on cold days, the hot water system break down and we would be forced to use cold showers.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: You mean break down in quotes?

MR. MANDELA: Yes, break down in quotes. And if something happened outside, some political demonstrations against the government, they would immediately take it out on us. And the acts of brutality were too numerous for me to specify.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What about your own psychological games against them?

MR. MANDELA: Well, we didn't think it was worthwhile for us to being playing psychological games with warders. You must remember that we hardly had any contact with the policy makers, themselves, and the people with whom we were in contact were mainly ordinary warders.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But you didn't wear, I understand you refused to wear prison clothes. Isn't that a psychological game?

MR. MANDELA: No. Actually, we didn't refuse. I refused when I was alone in Pretoria for two years. I refused to use the type of outfit which was humiliating and they responded very well to that. But when I met other prisoners, and I found them using the outfit, which is prescribed for prisoners, I thought it would not be proper for me to continue using the outfit which I had compelled them, I compelled them to give to me, and I used the outfit that was used by other prisoners.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: You have constantly since you got out of prison deferred to the collegial executive committee decision making of the ANC. I just wondered if that was reinforced in feeling, your feeling of collegiality with the rest of the people.

MR. MANDELA: The feeling of collegiality, that is strong among us, not only amongst the ANC, but among all political prisoners. On the issues that face us, there was unanimity between the ANC, the PNC, the PCN, and at the liberal party, and we had hardly any problems.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: People I've talked to you who served time with you in Robin Island called it Mandela University because they said you used to teach the young ones who would come in. I mean, how important was your role in linking generations, ideology, people of different backgrounds? What do you remember about that?

MR. MANDELA: I did my best, but let us understand at the outset that I was not the only one who undertook teaching other students either politics or some subject. A man like Mr. Andrew Monsano who was a lecturer at the university and others did very solid work in educating the fellow prisoners, but we of course taught the students it was very important for us to conduct political lectures not only among colleagues in our section but also in the main sections and developed an underground channel of communication to make sure that political education was conducted in all sections.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How did you do that?

MR. MANDELA: Well, you know, every prisoner, especially if you're a politician, the first thing you attempt to do when you go to prison is to keep the channels of communication between yourself in prison and your organization outside. In this particular case because we were isolated, we had also to develop channels of communications with other sections of the prison.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How? I mean, did you send carrier pigeons or notes? How did that work?

MR. MANDELA: Discussing such issues would indicate to the authorities what our fellow prisoners now are doing to remain in contact with other sections of the prison, so that question is a bit dangerous.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, let me ask you this question then. How did you go from the kind of brutality that you were describing that existed generally in prison and your attempt to conform so that you were not distanced from your fellow prisoners? How did you go from that to being in the end called Mr. Mandela by your warders? I mean, what was it that caused them to develop --

MR. MANDELA: Well, we fought back, and as I must stress again, I was not the only one who fought back. We all fought back and the amount of bravery, of courage that was displayed was absolutely marvelous and we had hunger strikes and we resisted doing anything which we considered to be humiliating.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Can you think of any instance where you, yourself, said I'm not going to do this because I'm just not going to do it?

MR. MANDELA: On the very first day I arrived on Robin Island with three others, and we decided to fight that right from the beginning, nobody would order us to run, we refused to do that. And we said that the warders must stick to regulations and we would not do anything outside the regulations.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And they punished you for that?

MR. MANDELA: No, they -- well, they punished us if you regard what they did as punishment.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Which was --

MR. MANDELA: They took us to a cell and we found that this cell was wet. They actually threw water onthe cell and then they had to search us on admission and the way of searching, the way of searching was to take out, take off each article and search it and then throw it into the water. And that is what they did with everything that we had on. And it was very difficult for us to know what to do because the cell was wet, our clothing was wet. That was the type of thing, you know, the type of treatment we received at the beginning of our sentence.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What did you do on that particular occasion?

MR. MANDELA: What could we do? We had very violent exchanges with warders and that's all that we could do.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: One of the things that I read about your experience in prison was that you actually studied Afrikaans, that you read Afrikaan poetry, and I was struck by that because one of the critical moments in the recent struggle of the students who protested against Afrikaan being taught in schools and many of them were killed as a result. Why did you do that?

MR. MANDELA: Well, you must understand that I studied this in 1962, and the students' demonstrations started in 1976, and studying Afrikaan was a question of necessity, because quite a large proportion of the country's literature is in Afrikaan and they have got newspapers. They are the people whose policies we are fighting and one wants to know what they are thinking and what they are saying.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Did that help you?

MR. MANDELA: And it was a question, therefore, of necessity and I think that I did the right thing because throughout this period, I have been able to interpret the type of things that they were doing. I was able to anticipate what they might do.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Because you had gotten into their heads?

MR. MANDELA: Because I now could command, I commanded knowledge of their language.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: I also read that you watched a bit of television whenever you could. I wonder if you ever saw any of the portraits or portrayals of yourself.

MR. MANDELA: No. They were very strict about that.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: They didn't let you see those?

MR. MANDELA: No.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Did you want to see them?

MR. MANDELA: I did.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why?

MR. MANDELA: I did. Well, one likes, you know, anything about himself, but this is the type of things which they were determined not to allow.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Were you aware of this myth, mythical character that was being built up in the outside world through portraits on television, movies, this sort of thing, and did that concern you at all?

MR. MANDELA: Well, that worried me a bit.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why?

MR. MANDELA: Because I wanted to be presented as I am and I am an ordinary human being with witnesses and you don't want to be built up into something that you are not and there are many of my colleagues, you know, who have excellent virtues and qualities who have excellent achievements and one, therefore, would like to be presented as an ordinary human being where his colleagues shine more brightly than him in all respects or in some respects.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But with all due respect, you are not presented that way, people don't think about you that way. I mean, when you came out of prison, people expected you to unify black factions, they expected you to end the violence in Natal, they expected to assuage white fears, lead the country to a post apartheid South Africa. Does that worry you that those kinds of expectations have been --

MR. MANDELA: No, they don't worry me, because I will not undertake these tasks as an individual. I am a loyal and disciplined member of the ANC as I was before and when I come out, I report to the ANC and they will instruct me what to do, what role to play. And in a collective effort, there is immense advantage in that we will be able to look at all sides of a problem and find solutions for it. By the way, talking about a person who has been turned into a legend, I as you know delivered a speech last Sunday in Cape Town, and many people admired the speech, but then I received a telegram and this telegram I read and I felt it was worthwhile to read to my colleagues who were there, and this person said, well, I'm very happy, we are happy that you are out, that at last you are free, but I found your speech most uninspiring. You see, so you can see that people see shortcomings in a man and speak fearlessly.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Nevertheless, whenever I have been into the townships, and I started coming in 1985, it's Mandela, Mandela, Mandela, and that's what you're getting here. Does it concern you at all that people want you to be the leader?

MR. MANDELA: Well, as I have said, it doesn't worry me at all, because I will not work as an individual. In fact, no single decision will be taken by me without reference to my colleagues, that is, the National Reception Committee inside the country, my fellow prisoners who were released shortly before I was released and the national -- I will work in that context and to that extent I'm really not awed by the prospects which I have to confront.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: May I just turn briefly to your vision of a post apartheid South Africa. I know that you've talked about a democratic, non-racial South African society in which everyone has an individual right to express himself or herself, but what specifically can you tell me about your vision for the future? For example, I've heard you talk about a modified form of influx control to prevent the uncontrolled flow of people coming into the cities once the barriers to their travel are down.

MR. MANDELA: I have never suggested any form of influx control. Influx control is something totally discredited and it must go. Any vestiges of that system have to be condemned and we don't welcome any form of influx control.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: In the best of all possible worlds, let's say the negotiations have taken place and the government has agreed to dismantle all of the main pillars of apartheid. Realistically in what order would you like to see them addressed?

MR. MANDELA: Well, that again is a question for the African National Congress to decide and not for an individual. What concerns us now is that the government must conform to the preconditions which we have set. They have not done so as yet except as far as the unbanning of the ANC and the partial lifting of the state of emergency. We insist that they must comply with all these preconditions and once that is done, then there will be room for further progress.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Have you given thought to either in fantasy or otherwise what you would like to do in a post apartheid South Africa?

MR. MANDELA: No. I know what I've done in the past, but what I do in future is something to be determined by the ANC, itself. No useful purpose will be deserved by having any ideas as to what role you wish to play in the future because this is something to be determined by the organization itself, and one must have sufficient loyalty and discipline to subject himself to the control of the organization.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But just for a moment could we fantasize about hearing the words President Mandela?

MR. MANDELA: No. Firstly, in the ANC we have been taught to believe in collective effort and I have come therefore to accept if Mr. Oliver Tumble is president I am president. If Alfred Zo is secretary, I am secretary. And if Joe Slova is a member of the national -- I am member of the national -- it is sometimes worthwhile and very rewarding to let others take positions and to make your contribution purely by the strength of your reasoning, of your contribution and nothing more. And I have no particular ambition except to be a member of the team.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, Mr. Mandela, thank you very much for being with us. RECAP

MR. MacNeil: Again, the major stories of this Friday, the exiled leadership of the African National Congress announced plans to return to South Africa for a meeting with Pres. DeKlerk. West Germany unveiled a plan for reunification with East Germany. Under the proposal, the unified country would belong to the NATO alliance. Earlier on the Newshour, Sec. of State Baker endorsed the plan and the understanding that NATO troops would not go into territory that is now East Germany, and the U.S. trade deficit narrowed to a five year low in 1989. Good night, Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: Good night, Robin. That's our Newshour for tonight. We'll be back Monday night. I'm Judy Woodruff. Thank you and have a good weekend.