The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

yes we're the mers were the curve the pope the purpose good evening i'm robert mcneill in new york and i'm jim lehrer and

washington after our summer the news this doomsday we have a newsmaker interview with democratic vice presidential candidate al gore several answers to the question what is the federal budget deficit all about anyhow and a clarence page essay about clashing of cultures you kind of have in the world i mean the corporation for public broadcasting and viewers like you president bush today proposed a compromise in the deadlock over presidential debates the challenge bill clinton got four consecutive sunday night debates beginning october eleventh you said two would use the format he favored with questions from a panel of journalists the other two would have a single moderator a format proposed by

the bipartisan commission on debates bill clinton had accepted that format president bush until now had opposed the president issued his challenger rally in clarksville tennessee i feel quite confident the governor's plan will accept this proposal says his campaign chairman has indicated in the past the governor linwood debate and now i call with moderators without moderate in a studio out of this studio three questionnaires one questioner so i have no doubt that there will be organizations willing to sponsor these debates and in governor clinton is serious about debating he will accept this challenge and he will instruct his campaign officials and they probably with my campaign officials to work out the details directly between the parties let's get it on bill clinton said tonight that if the president wants to debate he should first show up at the bipartisan commission's previously scheduled debates on october fourteenth fifteenth he also pointed out that two of the president's proposed date

conflict with baseball's world series which draws a huge television audience clinton was in louisville kentucky today draw attention to the fact that a debate had been scheduled rare for tonight but was cancelled because of the bush campaign's objection to the single moderator format he said the president put off that debate because he couldn't explain america's economic problems ms dubois has spent the entire campaign skipping around for the bizarre appeared in his policies it's not available here that i ever saw many people here want to so much trouble like this such a good light to discuss how we can create jobs and increase incomes or not robert kennedy and challenged all of you trying to be more responsible mr bush's antenna say once again possibly misrepresenting my record of positions anna gorman which i have no opportunity to respond to a letter inside is something parallel it occurs to me that you can't bail locals

wonder if you don't stand up to the light democratic vice presidential candidate al gore went after president bush's foreign policy record today in a speech in washington he accused the president of poor judgment and moral blindness in his pre gulf war policy toward iraq he said the administration had cobbled saddam hussein emboldening him to invade kuwait whitehouse want and marlon fitzwater business that attack as another effort to re write history will have a newsmaker interview with senator garn later in the program the government's index of leading economic indicators fell point two percent in august it with the second decline in the last three months the indexes designed a forecast economic activity three to nine months in advance another report out today showed consumer confidence down last month it was the third straight monthly decline report is a product of the conference board a private business research group it and today announced it was cutting forty thousand employees this year the computer maker had originally planned

to cut half that number or the cuts amount to about eleven percent of the company's worldwide workforce seals president fernando carbon a loan wasn't the edge today by his country's congress it was brazil's first freely elected president in twenty nine years mr took office two years ago after running on an anti corruption platform but he himself became implicated in an influence peddling scandal he was charged with taking millions of dollars in bribes to finance an extravagant lifestyle the impeachment votes suspenseful are for six months small lawmakers debate whether to remove him permanently he also faces a possible criminal trial on corruption charges assistant secretary of state thomas miles said today the united states may resume really flies this area a ball by the end of the week the airlift to the bosnian capital was halted earlier this month after an italian really plane was shot down mortar attacks on the city killed at least three people and wounded twenty others today the

shelling was some of the heaviest in weeks united nations humanitarian officials warn four hundred thousand people displaced by the fighting in bosnia and other former yugoslav republics could die this winter of hunger and starvation the senate move toward a vote on a tax bill today contains aid for the nation's cities a tax credit for first time homebuyers and a limited cut in the capital gains tax it would also make permanent to tax increases on upper income americans instituted in nineteen ninety president bush said he would veto the bill if those two provisions are included the measure next goes to a house senate conference committee magic johnson announced today he will return to professional basketball he retired from the los angeles lakers last year after learning he had contracted the ati the virus which causes aids johnson who is thirty three years old made the announcement at an afternoon news conference in inglewood california the true

test for me was planning of the players in practice a lot on the look that came undone watch them as i was used to play hard against them every day just feeling great and you feel good and it's time to get back to two of them do and you know with my wife another plan on in god is for them to school during an upset for the newshour tonight now it's on to al gore the federal deficit and a clarence page essay but first tonight a newsmaker interview with senator al gore the democratic vice presidential nominee in a speech today he harshly criticized president bush's dealings with her rack saying mr bush tried to present himself as the hero who put out the raging fire when evidence showed

he was the one who set the fire by calling saddam hussein with armed shipments and aid before the gulf war your order talk with senator gore earlier today in washington before the announcement that the president would be willing to debate governor clinton gore thank you from going to the region it's almost two years after they air war with iraqi you're one of the ones who voted authorized to use the united states for so they're not wondering all this are just five weeks before the election well first of all a lot of new evidence has come out just in the last few weeks and it has reached a critical mass which makes it possible now to see the full picture of the bush policy leading up to the war with iraq the warnings that were repeatedly given to the white house about saddam using us taxpayer assistance to finance nuclear weapons acquisition hugo weapons technology

acquisition chemical and biological weapons technology and artillery all kinds of military applications all those warnings were ignored at the same time he was involved in an escalating series of terrorist the tax fraud and making all kinds of bellicose threats and in spite of the warnings from the intelligence community the cia the defense department the energy department of commerce department bush it persisted but in saying saddam as a docile out why someone who could be our friend and the judgment he used is i think atrocious beyond that he has sent so at that time repeatedly told the american people that none of that as policies persisted saddam's acquisition of these weapons and of course where that's simply not

true but if someone with experience and warm coffee president bush director of the cia ambassador to china eight years as vice president which would have this mistake in judgment as you describe it why should the american people expect better from governor quinn has had virtually no experience well judgment doesn't come from the time sir you are have judgment or you go and i think the record of bush's handling of his policy toward a rack and his advocacy of the arms for hostages so i think the record shows is judgment and character and in the case of these polls with a right wing directly to the war with iraq that did not have to have a one on one of honest questions that domestic economic policy announced that politics ain't you know ross perot is nothing nate get back into the presidential race there are polls showing that it was one poll out yesterday or today that shows that

the league that you and other clinton have over president bush and vice president quayle it is already now weighing in that withdrawal in the race narrows even further according to one poll just to five points do you welcome ross perot was his decision and whatever he decides though we will move forward from there not much we can do that is his decision will will will take years ago a larger concern that this could get cut into believing you never quite now enjoys well we're all in the polls we're not paying any attention to the to the pundits and he kept all these political factors were just concentrating on presenting the clear choice between more of the same which is the worst economic performance since the great depression and constructive change to get our country moving again to put people first to create jobs for our people and that's what governor quinn i represented were fighting a very enthusiastic response to it governor clinton said just in the last day or so that you are economic plan and governor

rose i have a great deal in common and is too pro is you know is called for fifty cent a gallon tax increase tight and gasoline over five years he's taught to that increasing of taxes and social security benefits for those earning over twenty five thousand dollars a year is to increase the marginal tax rate is another cuts in entitlements that might that might not be attractive to a number of voters who are supporting your candidate fifth know right now what how much do the two planned and well you pick out at least a couple of them who was the day fernando giron and cons of president difference between our approach in the pro coin op is there he raises prices on low income families in ways that we do not think or wise but both of those are planning and is awkward are based on the premise that we've got to reduce the budget deficit we could roll to win more emphasis on stimulating economic growth and getting our economy moving forward

again because with liver of a plea and along we can reduce it doesn't really minutely without economic growth but again he is saying that the deficit is not the overriding priority for clinton gore that it that it is for him and that he believes that it should be well i've got a clint and i believe that the way to reduce the budget deficit is to also stimulate economic growth not exclusively because we have got to make real cuts are in the in the budget doesn't but we should not go about that in a way which has a perverse affect all star point economic growth goes out one thing that would be a self defeating strategy because you know when the economic growth slows down the budget doesn't always goes up and the approach he put forward has been criticized in fact your approach in the president's approach has been criticized for not being specific enough and for

not knowing and i guess there was a report in the wall street journal just a week or so ago that went into great detail on your land and on the president's plan pointed out that something like three hundred and sixteen billion dollars gap between the promises that the governor quinn day and what you what effect do to cut spending and raise revenue to pay for all this and specifically the one at the health care reform proposal as just being very day in terms of how that cost would be how they're well that's the opinion of one analyst again in service sector well you know harry truman won the war because of all the one have all the other there are some four hundred though distinguish the caucus who have reviewed our plan in great detail not have endorsed it hundreds of business leaders have as well on the health care plan we got a great many other leaders in the health care field and specialists in this area i endorsed the plan wholeheartedly we believe

that we can save money or the americans people by having cost controls on healthcare all by having a national approach that's not government run but emphasizes managed competition to encourage competition on the basis of the quality of care and the efficiency with which it is delivered rather than what we have now with insurance companies competing to get rid of the customers and patients are more likely to have a higher medical cause that'll be illegal in fact that's one of the contradictions that you just cited and pointed out you talk about holding down cause holding down the price of medical care than on the other hand promoting competition among the asian models but on what went on on a nearby says competition can bring can hold cost down to the competition can be it can work for us instead of against us market pressures i'm often bring cost down if the marketplace is not the story of what we have now on it is that as a distorted of marketplace distorted by

government programs that don't wear abortion quote water pour more money into the same programs us we're spending almost thirty percent more per person on healthcare and the people of any other nation on the face of this earth and so much of it goes to a completely unnecessary procedures red tape bureaucracy the kind of the duplication in overland that has no medical benefit once was aware of your doctor's office now phil with specialists who know how to game is system and then the insurance companies hire their team of specials and they all fight with each other and i mean thirty percent is going to paperwork now it's ridiculous question is why hasn't governor quinn and you've been more specific about how these costs are going to be held and there's a great portion of the health program in again governor can talk about the last few days that has not been spelled out the same

with the economic program and there those are saying well an eloquent listener laura sitting on nearly enough that they decided in iraq caught his campaign because they're running ahead and that they can't avoid it anymore and i don't think that's their thought was the civic regard to health care plan but just met another speech and interested in today filling out the more of the details we put out an extensive white paper and presenting details on the plan that we believe it's time for a national health insurance plan of a kind that's not run by the government what is still rooted in the private sector run according to end within a structure that is established in the public interest with a standardized that benefit packages so you don't have this military can overlap art with a tax credit for employers who provide care in the workplace with cost controls to bring down the cost of care oh so that we have a system that

provides care at reasonable cost and makes it accessible to the american people would then putting this opportunity and on the economic plan well first well what we will save money we have put out a very detailed presentation a five year budget plan which reduces the budget deficit by half and also pays attention to the investment deficit and stimulate economic growth the creation of high wage jobs emphasizing education job training the acquisition of the skills necessary to compete effectively in the nominees in the twenty percent and targeted investments in those areas that we know are much more likely to yield these new high wage jobs we're out of time i swear to be one quick last question that is president bush saying about clinton's tax proposal would not just upper income people that he would have to go and the people earning thirty six thousand dollars as here just in order to pay for the health plan and other aspects

of this trip to just absolutely wrong fictional assumptions and there are some on governor glenn has maintained in his state the second lowest per capita tax burden in the entire united states while at the same time leading the nation number one among all fifty states for the last two years in a row according to bush administration figures in the creation all jobs in the private sector poised by contrast has left us with an economy having fewer jobs in the private sector after four years then existed when he took over governor quinn has led the nation named by the other governors as the best and most effective govern the country as creative high wage manufacturing jobs than ten times the national average it's a clear joy is more of the same or change go and inconvenience thank you tomorrow we'll have a newsmaker interview with vice president dan quayle still had the deficit question and a clarence page essay

now we're going to talk about that thing ross perot believes everyone should be talking about right now the federal budget deficit yesterday in dallas parole and the key people in his movement listen to representative of the bush and clinton campaigns talk about the deficit we're going to listen to four other people on the subject right after this background or by our business correspondent paul simon of wgbh in boston our budget is up around a trillion and a half dollars in this two hundred and thirty or the republic we decided to celebrate with a k it's a pre sliced and decorated to show how the different pieces of the budget and up frustrated because sly social security and other pension expenses up around thirty percent of the total now it has almost as large a twenty five percent or so medicare and medicaid represent a smaller but growing portion then there's everything else the government puts money into from school to space vp at pbs we'll get to this final slice

investment now we wouldn't have a story of the government to get enough money to cover its expenses every year but as you may have heard we're going to come up a little short again in nineteen ninety two to the tune of something like three hundred billion dollars that's the yearly deficit represented by this realm of tape around here which isn't covered by the revenues of the government and that clearly deficit we have to cover by borrowing money ok or money to the bar over four years to cover the deficit adds up to the national debt by the end of nineteen ninety two was something like four trillion dollars the problem is is that day grows so does the interest we have to pay on the nats this last piece of the pie over here the interest on the federal debt which is now up to fifteen percent of the total budget and the more we borrow the more that these crops now the argument against the deficit and the debt it requires is not just the extra interest we have to pay it's based on the belief that there's only so much money out there to borrow so when the government borrows it displaces private companies like what the money to better use but are crowded out by

the government a related criticism is when the government borrows so much money it drives up long term interest rates and that further discourages private borrowers who would otherwise have invested in both of them but there is another way to look at deficits and the debt as an opportunity instead of a problem as the way economists robert heilbrun overlooks a borrowing whether it's by the government the private sector or individuals like you and me we started simply by asking him is borrowing good or bad news before icu here have suspended terrible you're a banker i have to say yes to one question is when to borrow it for if you say love artist and my son the college of good and barbara are more than half the size of ardor for a course in higher education is a great i borrow to pay for losses the

truck nuts ah another word that can be either good are that depending on what you do with a borrowed money borrowing to play the horses is probably bad borrowing since you lose on average borrowing for college education at the cars increased earning power will pay off over the long haul now the answer is very clear for individuals it's even clearer for companies one of america's most venerable corporations that are the safety razors oh many years to let his accumulated total that a one point two billion dollars but we don't see gillette has been running big deficits instead we say gillette has borrowed money to invest and grow the business and that may be a very good they now companies region that are completely upfront about what they're doing in the bar for example when they put up a new capital equipment this rn speak to the press machine at

gillette for example it's often borrowed money that pays for bizarre as the machine stops it the war between russia isn't something like six million a year the efficiency of the machine shed more than a pretty dead gillette they've taken on to buy it does it would be gone viral they're all borrowing after letting the money the track or borrow just to pay its current operating expenses rent wages while you're never too long endure an abyss it's okay so now what about the us government has been investing the borrowed money blowing it on risky bets like cvs no industry or just bending at the cover everyday expenses in this whole buzz is about the deficit the debt becomes the images that you came into the single most important question that any other namely large of powerful youtube and eventually have to go when you make it in mind that senseless loss of any company would you know for the listener it's ok that said every corporation

war was the chairman of the city that once said and i think if any cooperation kept a spokeswoman for the federal government keeps its books in jail rob this is an accounting issue which expenditures does the government actually paid for when it borrows money to cover the deficit but beyond that there's a deeper issue which figures prominently in this campaign both candidates but especially clinton have been emphasizing new investor with clinton making the case for infrastructure the fact is however that the money for that investment will probably wind up being borrowed and that will increase the deficit so the question in the economist or ross perot might ask is what's the return or payoff on that government investment could possibly be worth going to now we get four sets of answers to that and other deficit questions carroll cox weight is president of the committee for a responsible federal budget a non partisan washington dc group that studies by the issues she's a former legislative director of

the senate budget committee robert i was there is a professor of economics at northwestern university says only as an economist at the american enterprise institute and john white is an advisor to ross perot and is the principal author of the perot budget deficit plan is only from his job of vice president at eastman kodak that began at the beginning and end with you this is wade how important do you believe that is to reduce the federal budget deficit and when that is the single most important economic policy decision our country faces i think that with and yet that is growing faster than our economy we simply don't have any choice we have got to put our fiscal house in order it won't solve all our other problems that we can't solve our problems until we do that do you agree with ross perot i agree with ross perot that the budget deficit is share should be at the top of the economic contending as professor professor eisner in chicago how important do you believe

reducing the federal deficit is why couldn't disagree more water just been said the most important thing facing this country is jobs and one national income growth investment in the future i'm afraid that all this focus on reducing the budget deficit is obscuring us from tackling the real problems in this country you feel about this i have to go right in between out and say yes i'm reducing the budget deficit is very very important but perhaps the most important issue is why isn't our economy growing even by historical standards it's growing very slowly even if you control for the recession now we'll be lucky to get two percent back with terrible so the question you have to ask is it the deficit in keeping our growth path and here i think the answer is yes that is while there's a more important questions to get this part of the puzzle have to be solved what do we do with the deficit how do we get

growth back again now must avoid in rochester new york is it possible that they're both is it possible to reduce the budget deficit and have growth at the same time that the two interdependent i want to how would you say it and i would use amplified for us well the tourists are clearly related jim i think the point is that in the short term we do have to have more stimulus or more growth wuhan a recession but in the longer term the longer term as ninety four ninety five as we get out of this recession we have to get that that's a guy in order to stimulate long term growth increased our productivity and get us back to the kind of performance that we had before that as a kind of performance we had the sixties and seventies let's go back professor arthur layout your case mr ivan why this has not been as important as ross perot and and the majority of your fellow colleagues the cr your colleagues this evening think it is well robert iran related outgrew our introduction to this leavitt say quickly the people really don't understand what we mean by deficit what we mean

by debt they've taken the one hand for his analysis to their own situations the federal debt is after all what is owned by the american people if the federal deficit is the difference between what the federal government is giving the american people what the american people i given to the federal government that is legitimately mad as many stopping their theories by which it may not aware of the american people and the data we have government the american people is borrowing money from specific american people there which i'm a garment is borrowing money from people and that maze of the government all this money to people now if the alternative is to eliminate the deficit for example which promised a parole would have you do in a few years what you find is that the public is going to be paying taxes instead of owning more government bonds i was a consequence of that it needs of the public cannot buy as much as the use of the economy will be depressed it means that people will be suffering i was a curious notion somehow that pain is good for us and we have to

sacrifice ingest into the burro program originally offered is a lot about reducing the deficit is that it serves that policy is what is necessary economics i would say the protective this time it's not about politics it is a disaster in terms of economic service a white to suggest that at this time when the economy in a recession would not purchasing power new figures out today i'm consumer confidence low the atheist in this situation you've either cut spending or reduced taxes were good or raise taxes were divided be doing is depriving the american people business and consumers of the purchasing power necessary for employers added recession know a little on the run and the law are probably concerned with the long run you have to ask yourself two things one would reducing the deficit really actually increase saving and investment future minority indicated even on the conventional measure say it does very unlikely to happen actually i'm a broader measure of

saving of investment which includes infrastructure could impose invested in education which includes research which enclosed or things that we need to get ahead in the future or his focus on reducing the deficit is at this point is simply preventing us from making the necessary investments or entertaining them anything because look i was sort of our own investment you can do it there's no distinction made between investment and it suggested squandering a manet hour trek las vegas and as a virtuous way to proceed no private business reason that way an individual house so the city that he borrows to finance investment and we should be doing the same thing i'm shaking my hand i'm i think we will whisper in their true i would agree we would all agree that jobs and economic growth of the issues that i didn't think anybody thought the problem was the government spent too little money too little money let me say first that i have an advantage on the budget expert on an economist and and let me just be below the budget history

because sometimes we think tinker around with the federal budget we can do things that i think we can't do in nineteen seventy seven congress enacted an economic stimulus package in the first year of the carter administration the money yet the economy and actually spanned out when interest rates and inflation were rising and make it exacerbated problems we already have it didn't solve the problems it passed the spending program for salt simple terms do you interpret that is exactly what professor writers station and galileo's economic stimulus spending or a nineteen eighty two we did exactly the reverse of what professor eisner and others are saying we ought to do today we raised taxes and and cut spending in a recession and it's called happy that bill passed in august of nineteen eighty two i'm not arguing cause and effect that shortly thereafter the longest peacetime recovery in the post world war two arab bp and i think that it is preposterous to argue that we run the risk of reducing the federal deficit too much too fast i'm sorry i'm around this town too long i think is equally

preposterous to argue that this economy will respond quickly enough then that this government can move quickly enough to do those sorts of things that professor isaiah and the others would have us do the tinker around the edges to somehow fix what's wrong i think we fix what's wrong like fixing what's wrong the fundamental underlying the stakes there we made an adult with a powerful you just project professor of mr thesis which i will not repeat what in shorthand is that if you do all these things that you will shrink the economy not expanded annual that's called more more more pain and suffering than exists now i utterly reject the thought that the government could act quickly enough to do what he wants to do and it would work and furthermore i'm prepared to argue that year we could demonstrate that our government actually can come to grips with the problems that we face that he can do the things we have to do if we can convince the credit markets of the world that we're gonna put our fiscal house in order and long term interest rates may

come down they'd surely we don't run some ways we would run because of the kinds of things he wants and i think we can have a better world certainly in the long term and maybe in the short term as well restaurant not know we might get back to your medicaid money get an economist lee for sheep and she portrayed herself as being in the middle here so a take a little bit anyway you wanna go on this argument ok have to move to the side and say that i rejected totally what professor isaiah think what he's talking about is a theory called keynesian economics which says that deficit financing will stimulate the economy keynesian economics got its start during the kennedy administration this is the only country in the world thirty forty years later that's not practicing still practicing keynesian economics the notion that somehow deficit will stimulate the economy if you look right this minute we have a three hundred billion dollars deficit it our economy stimulated know the deficit has been increasing our county has been slumping nobody really not believe in this very anymore present

well what the gillette that the thing was on the thing about elect not to let in bath and by that to breathlessly and make them toothbrushes really fast if however they borrow more money than the productivity investment to let will go bankrupt if our government borrows money makes an investment and a return to some normal our government is not the bank that it taxes i asked mark so the analogy between business borrowing is just as well and don't advise just as long as that between consumer borrowing and government borrowing professor arthur you're outnumbered the first was i'm not advocating increasing the deficit in general wants a two things in the first place here in a recession the deficit is very large now precisely because of the recession there's a confusion between cause and effect which every economist and recognize that is when you have a recession tax revenues go down when you have a recession governments benefit from a farm insurance

go up now when you take measures to reduce the deficit in that situation you're really knocking economy over the head is i have an outlet is secure which you tell a patient does or wait you say ok will so you probably glad to take your legs you can cripple the economy that way now as a matter of fact what you should be looking at what was suggested earlier is what the government is spending for the critical thing is to take these cuts and defense expenditures and you zoom out to invest in infrastructure to use them to invest in research if you don't do that was that happen is a defense workers losing jobs and the economy will be worse although have no other job to go to if you take the money that is saving time there's plenty ways that they have to get rid of i certainly happy to cut the fans as was the voice analysts differ on this occurred not agree with you have to recognize that the government has a particular old and it's not just a zenith noun such as factories in this country every major investor founder of the world recognizes that

government spending and taxes have a ripple effect on the economy when the government spends it is purchasing power of people may give too much at times cover spending should be cut when the government taxes that takes purchasing power away in fact that history the reagan administration iphone was no supporter of the history of the tax code maybe one is it that actually came into effect last year the end of eighty two and that was a major factor in getting us out of it terrible recession we had an eighty one to eighty three the worst recession since the great depression and into a fortune out raise taxes to try to reduce the deficit will enjoy the seven her middle of it is so vivid drive the economy further down let's go to john white on this professor others said it wide and others and said at the detroit than in fact senate day in dallas yesterday that the overall plan to reduce the deficit or eliminate the deficit in five years would a extract pain that is not necessary

and that the economy will you would you would bring a disaster to the economy to do so what is your basic answer to that well i think there's an unfortunate confusion here about the probe when the program was intended to start at the beginning of nineteen ninety four is explicitly a song in our plan that we are on the outside of the business cycle not in a recession some people attended to take our plan and say oh my god you can't do that now we have no intention of doing that now what we're saying is that this is a very fundamental problem we have to work and this fundamental problem we ought to do it when it's appropriate it is appropriate when we begin to come out of the recession and begin on the upside of the business cycle right let's bring us the spring the question into work today that i realize you cannot speak ross perot's on this asking you is john white what is your reading out which of the plans on the table now that you understand them the one from president bush and the one from from our

governor cotton are closest to what you would wish to accomplish at least under the parole board i think god as i understand them the mccain plan would be closer to the pro plan that then would be the bush plan isi have some problems making the numbers work on the bush plan the clinton plan is does scott defense a deli order investment priorities which i agree with my group of us lived on that i call it as i think they spent a bit too much but i think the priorities are clearly correct and we've also we ordered those priorities in terms of education and infrastructure and civilian r and b they do is also caught how about taxes for high income people but unfortunately i think they're incorrect to provide a middle income tax cut but i do think they are closer than just simply haven't gone far enough right ms lee how would you where would you put the bush versus clinton plans compared to what role as mine or anyway you see the need to cut the budget deficit which one would do the best job in your

opinion about that really i said how's the corral plan would do the best job that it would do what it would do it with a hatchet would do a very good i mean on a good way most of the money in the programme comes from the fifties the gasoline tax which is the tax aimed right at the heart of the middle class the middle class and see their taxes go up at their payroll taxes over the past several years it's a very bad thing to tax them or solving the budget deficit by raising taxes is a very bad thing and if you're interested in actually solving the budget deficit rose plan at least gives you a sense of raw material to work with it it's said well we could tax and tile going to have to put caps on medicare that none of the things that economists morales think would be a good idea no matter what even if we had a small deficit that's a stutter but what really bothers me does did offer a tiny bit on the role plants is that cutting the deficit is not enough he doesnt talk the plan does not talk about regulation of london and billions of dollars that we spend

on business regulation which includes well let me i'm sorry i think the problem here is my question about your answer might be which do you think would cut the budget a budget deficit that are the clinton plan or the bush plan rather than less asleep rollout of the program i mean that was where i don't think well actually got together that plan calls for a lot of spending increases which are things that we are sending is that relates to in some art from lebanon was at least at the outset our laid out that these are the things he would do it even if there's little gimmick about having the budget check up on tax returns i think very glamorous i like that between the two plans into a no question and johnson summoned not nominate then not be able to get the president's arithmetic than up i don't have a trouble with the arithmetic and in the bush budget favorite they've got a map right they i think they may have the political

arithmetic will run the president proposes to cut spending and to cut it a lot so much so that i think at some point people might cry uncle and said that in one federal spending but quite that much but there is no question that in spending and the deficit would go down if congress did everything the president has proposed to do his specific cuts his internment camps is a wreath under nafta discretionary spending is defense cuts and then there are some specified cuts which he says he would offset by tax reductions the klan math doesn't add up i mean this is a supply side spending tapered beginning point the baseline and the increases in use a tractor decreases it doesn't come out to what they say their deficit is because they are so optimistic economic growth in two years i mean on the face of the arithmetic doesn't work only an app the glen budget proposes to increase spending more than it proposes to increase taxes there is no right or wrong size of government that it's

very clear that if you want the clinton bigger budget and you want a balanced budget and have a higher taxes because i like to let the government has no other place to get its money with which do you think it would do more question are infected dozens of the readers saw this give you a pre shot here which the second the best plans for the economy the bush plan or that plan or how you compare in fact i think the deficit might well be reduced if that isn't reduced proper way that has reduced the growth in the economy to do is to lower interest rates reduced through elimination of ways where you can the big thing is transferring is changing the nature of governance manages to bring them the bear on investment an investment with to make this grow nothing is perfect for the clinton plan i think does though a considerable way there as far as deficit reduction those whatever numbers are worth putting plywood reduce it as a somewhat more than the bush plan but

city center is a voice that worked i don't think that that is a critical factor as far as the profile of those you know it might turn out to be of a whirl of a western weakness of chasing your own tail mr weiss so they don't need to cut these expenditures right away at as katherine in the world wars and he's got a shot which has those that deficit going down from three hundred and thirty vinnie and as a nineteen ninety two to ninety billion in nineteen ninety six as a two hundred and forty billion dollar was out of the american economy over people what you know it would be about i think there will be a backing the jumper is that if you do that if you're trying to raise taxes and cut spending or entitlements was so security was a broken window for example raising gasoline taxes doing all that you were in fact not produce its eggs of other to have avoided that in you know you've taken african american people because you're likely to have an economy which is wrong with us which made into a tailspin and you'll find the

deficit growing i knew you very close to the death of an animal italy not affected they will come up you know i get it now that's why it's actually let us and you disagree with that possible scenario yes i do it i think there's a misunderstanding of the prison terms of the plants out when it starts and in the gradual most of which we do it we do it so that in the fifth year it's about four or five times more cuts than in the first years we've done a very gradual slope what we can't leave it there not that all four of you or they were the semper speaking a language that i could understand i mean finally tonight as a as clarence page of the chicago tribune has some thoughts about an enduring political battle this election is about more than who gets what it is about who we all that women can and the sound of the call to

arms there is a religious war going on in this country it is cold as critical to the kind of nation we shall be as the cold war itself this war is the soldier the gap between us and our opponents as a cultural divide not just a difference between being conservative and liberal it is a difference between fighting for what's right and refusing to see what's wrong through dozens of bosnia but he may be right we learn a woeful truth is here our culture i mean i do have to do a major lot marilyn quayle hamilton called the influence of the known known for doing in all use

the other beach high records after four years of war culture war politics of ninety two it's a conflict or not with guns but with some cultural icons emotionally charged shorthand the candidates hold will connect with us and our most deeply held region it's b how about your hotel was a little specific effect blowing something other than the election era serve five to deal with the help of their

own when it was going on iowa's movement known unknown i guess you'd say his plan really is elvis economics america will be snacking again the heartbreak hotel data is the fulfillment he's to conserve an individual life too which raises an interesting question can a candidate make one of galveston still well in nineteen ninety two again that's poised cultural war always involves a certain risk the clash between us and them along with the hope that there's more abbas amar of them why else would marilyn quayle spend time recalling how well behaved she and her husband were really otherwise tumultuous nineteen sixties not everyone

enjoyed the counterculture not everyone demonstrated dropout to grads joined the sexual revolution or died of rat have a common path at a time when we americans feel disoriented an anxious about our future we turn to the reassurance of a happy and highly selective recollection of history it's happened before we have a tough time picking our leader we all confirmed the cultural shorthand the culture wars not unlike the class that occurred before the book of our nation between england's roundhead puritans and it's a long haired cavaliers america's puritans were displaced in the post victorian era well said the harlem renaissance

was a cultural revolution politics the time my own wave of immigrants from europe the american south the cultural elite energized by the new players would never be the same there's a short hop apple yesterday's tumble goldwyn says today's cut and wrapped in yesterday's debate lawrence rollie way from tabloid newspapers the tabloid jellies whose side are you on whose history do you prefer doesn't matter the past the sell them as great as we remember hours a television memorabilia five nineteen twenties america than i about returning to a lot of american lawyers were women work up a fight my

young all those voters live as a metaphor for american foreign policy energy was tempered and sobriety there is come in all shapes and sizes and ultimately what really defines a family his commitment hearing and love i'm honored that the hollywood the wood donate an hour of primetime television to answer one sentence of a speech that i made a number of unfortunate hollywood still doesn't get it now american culture is always at war with itself culture clash in our society

as it always assures to new people and cultures and ideas and culture clash will be exploited by politicians find in its cultural shorthand a convenient diversion for more complicated problems like jobs and the economy the political messengers may change but the message will stay the same i can't believe that you can trust us because we're like you what more than the wannabe like those thinking that you and lovable innocent criminals and the new law again the main stories of this tuesday president first proposed for sunday night debates with bill clinton beginning october eleventh two would use a single moderator format which mr bush has imposed until now the others would use the president's preferred format for the panel of questioners

governor clinton said tonight listed were issued for show up the two debates already scheduled for october fourth and fifteenth then they would talk about two more and in brazil president fernando gordon mellow was impeached amid charges he took millions of dollars in bribes it was brazil's first freely elected president in twenty nine years imagine that robert was a law that with an interview with vice president quail hunter well thank you and that not running for the macneil lehrer newshour has been provided i have been a welcoming community and viewers like

you many thanks video cassettes of the macneil lehrer newshour are available from pbs video call one eight hundred three to eight pbs one thing is if

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