The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MAC NEIL: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After tonight's News Summary, we devote the NewsHour to coverage and analysis of the Million Man March on Washington. Charlayne Hunter-Gault reports from the march, itself, then a variety of prominent African- Americans discuss the messages the march sends and what impact it will have on the lives of black and white Americans. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: Thousands of black men participated in the Million Man March today in Washington. Hundreds were already on the National Mall at the West front of the Capitol when dawn broke on what organizers called a day of atonement by America's black men. There were prayer services, gospel singing, and performances by choirs, poets, and dancers. Religious and civil rights leaders all exhorted the audience to take responsibility for their own lives.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, National Rainbow Coalition: What can a million men do? Those who are in matrimony pay alimony and give their children some dignity they brought to this world. What can a million men do? We can change our self-destructive behavior and use our vote to bring about change. What can a million men do when you go home? If I could get a million men to do five things, take your child to school, meet your child's teacher, exchange home numbers, turn off the TV three hours a night, pick up report card every nine weeks, and sign your child's report card, we can send our children from jail to church to home. What can a million men do?

MR. LEHRER: Nation of Islam organizers said more than a million men attended the rally. A U.S. Park Police spokesman said the official number would be determined later. The man who called for the march, Minister Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam, was the last speaker of the day. In a two hour plus address, he defended himself from charges of racism and anti-semitism.

MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN, Nation of Islam: Today, whether you like it or not, God brought the idea through me, and he didn't bring it through me because my heart was dark with hatred and anti- semitism. He didn't bring it through me because my heart was dark and I'm filled with hatred for white people and for the human family of the planet. If my heart were that dark, how is the message so bright, the message so clear, the response so magnificent?

MR. LEHRER: We'll have much more on this story right after the News Summary. Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: President Clinton also spoke about race relations today at the University of Texas in Austin. He praised the march participants in their cause, but he also expressed concern about the role of Nation of Islam Leader Louis Farrakhan, without mentioning him by name.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: [Austin, Texas] Some of those in the march do have a history that is far from its message of atonement and reconciliation. One million men are right to be standing up for personal responsibility, but one million men do not make right one man's message of malice and division. So let us pray today that all who march and all who speak will stand for atonement, for reconciliation, for responsibility. Let us pray that those who have spoken for hatred and division in the past will turn away from that past and give voice to the true message of those ordinary Americans who march. If that happens, the men and the women who are there with them will be marching into better lives for themselves and their families, and they could be marching into a better future for America. [applause] The two worlds we see now each contain both truth and distortion. Both black and white Americans must face this, for honesty is the only gateway to the many acts of reconciliation that will unite our worlds at last into one America. To our white citizens, I say, I know most of you every day do your very best by your own lives to live a life free of discrimination. Nevertheless, too many destructive ideas are gaining currency in our midst. The taped voice of one policeman should fill you with outrage. White racism may be black people's burden, but it's white people's problem. We must clean our house. [applause] To our black citizens, I honor the presence of hundreds of thousands of men in Washington today committed to atonement and to personal responsibility, and the commitment of millions of other men and women who are African-Americans to this cause. I call upon you to build on this effort to share equally in the promise of America. But to do that, your house too must be cleaned of racism.

MR. MAC NEIL: The President suggested that state and local leaders open a dialogue in their communities on the issue of racism.

MR. LEHRER: There has been a slight rise in the number of two- parent families in America, the Census Bureau reported today. Nearly 600,000 more couples were living as families with children in 1994 than in 1990. The report attributed the shift to baby boomers reaching an age where they were less likely to divorce. Broken down by race, 65 percent of black families are headed by single parents, 25 percent of white families.

MR. MAC NEIL: The Supreme Court today declined to hear the state of South Carolina's appeal in the Citadel case. The state had argued the military college should remain all male. The ruling does not affect the challenge to the Citadel's all-male admissions policy still pending in federal court. And the High Court also rejected the appeal of anti-abortion protesters arrested in San Jose, California, for picketing within 300 feet of an abortion doctor's home. The picketers wanted a city ordinance limiting such protests declared unconstitutional.

MR. LEHRER: There are reports of new ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. A United Nations refugee official said today thousands of Muslims have been expelled recently from Northwestern Bosnia. They said there are signs that the expulsions may resume any day now. Ethnic cleansing violates the cease-fire agreement which began last Thursday. That truce is said to be holding, despite some fighting in Northwestern Bosnia. Bosnian Serb leaders dismissed four ranking generals today, but Gen. Radko Mladic continues as the leader of the Bosnian Serb army. The prime minister of the rebel Serb government also resigned today.

MR. MAC NEIL: NATO Secretary-General Willy Claes today asked to address the Belgian parliament to proclaim his innocence of corruption charges. Claes was the Belgian economics minister before he took the NATO post. He is charged with fraud, forgery, and abuse of office in connection with defense contracts. A special commission voted this weekend to bring Claes to trial.

MR. LEHRER: Two letter bombs exploded near Vienna, Austria, today, seriously injuring two people. One was a Syrian-born doctor. The other was a human rights advocate. This week, two alleged neo- Nazis charged with previous letter bomb attacks are on trial in Vienna. In Ukraine today, a bomb exploded at a soccer stadium, killing the president of a top soccer club and five other people. And in the Gulf of Mexico, Hurricane Roxanne hit a barge with 205- -245 people on board. Three people were killed, twenty-three people are still missing.

MR. MAC NEIL: Hezbollah guerrillas attacked an outpost of the Israeli Allied Militia in South Lebanon today. One militia man was wounded. Six Israeli soldiers were killed in an ambush yesterday in South Lebanon, and three others were killed on Thursday.

MR. LEHRER: And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to full coverage of the Million Man March in Washington. FOCUS - MILLION MAN MARCH

MR. MAC NEIL: Now, the Million Man March. We devote the rest of the NewsHour to today's rally in Washington. Hundreds of thousands of black men from all over the country assembled peacefully on the Mall. They came to answer the call made by Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam for black men to take responsibility for themselves, their families, and their community. We begin with this report from Charlayne Hunter-Gault.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: As dawn broke in the capital, the images of black men on the Mall began to take shape. Many of them had come in the night and slept here so they wouldn't miss a moment of the Million Man March that brought them here. An Arabic prayer pierced the air. The day of atonement and reconciliation had officially begun. [Muezzin Call] As the sun grew warmer against a bracing morning chill, so did the mood as the growing crowd of black men of all ages and walks of life, friends and strangers, acknowledged each other and seemed to celebrate this call for black men to stand up.

DICK GREGORY, Civil Rights Activist: I love you. God bless you. Go back home and take care of the family, your family, our family, God's family. Thank you.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: In the early part of the day, both Christian and Muslim ministers helped establish the tone and themes of the day. Chicago Minister Al Sampson, longtime supporter of Minister Louis Farrakhan, hailed his leadership.

REV. AL SAMPSON, Fernwood United Methodist Church, Chicago: I stand here today to ask your permission to make a motion. I make a motion that we accept Minister Louis Farrakhan as our leader all over the world for black men, for generations yet unborn, that he be our leader today, yesterday, and tomorrow.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: No matter what was going to be said by the leaders here today, the people who have gathered for this Million Man March have come from all over America with some ideas of their own. On Minister Farrakhan, many said, as far as they were concerned, the march was bigger than any one person.

DeLANE GARNER, Atlanta, Georgia: We don't need to play into the nonsense about Louis Farrakhan. It's bigger than Louis Farrakhan. This million men, who else in America could have called for a march and got this many people? Name me somebody!

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But few echoed the kinds of criticism of Minister Farrakhan's alleged anti-semitism and racial hate mongering that caused some black leaders not to endorse the march and to stay at home.

CHARLES OGLETREE, Harvard Law Professor: And I'm particularly disturbed that so many of our black leaders, so-called leaders, told people to stay away. This is--it really is a day of atonement and redemption. Men are here. They're sober. They're articulate. People are praying. People are happy. I've probably stepped on a hundred black men's feet today and, and not a single incident. I've made--you know, created relationships with other people. My son came up from college, and for both of us, who couldn't be in the march in 1963, this is our opportunity to come forward and give thanks for being alive in America in 1995, and also our time to, to have a sense of responsibility for the next generation.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: It was a diverse crowd, geographically and professionally: Doctors, lawyers, academics, and educators, students, hospital workers, and the unemployed. All came with ideas and hopes about this day, their words and the words of the speakers almost interchangeable at times.

JESSE BOYKIN, Brooklyn, New York: This day is a day of atonement. This day we come together, and I believe when we leave here, and go back to our various homes, we will have something to build upon. If nothing else, we have come together as a people.

UMAR KASHIFF, Houston, Texas: What I hope to be accomplished today is that, uh, unity amongst African-American males who have felt as though for many years that their voices have not been heard, have not been seen, and have really, has been taken the wrong way, so much negative in the media about our roles and the way we are perceived: We're lazy; we don't want to work. So today this is why I came, and my brothers, you know, from all over the world, from all over the world have come to say that that's not the image that we want the world to see us here.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: There were even some who said they saw this as a turning point for black leadership.

MEL PERRY, New York City: What's starting to occur right now is the beginning of a paradigm shift. You have people from different economic backgrounds, social backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, who are meeting together to sit down and have a dialogue. I think it's very important that men have come together to sort of reason. I think the women who are really serious about it should have been here, and I'm glad those who were concerned showed up, and it's about unity. It's not a black thing; it's a people thing.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Where are you from?

CARMEN ANDERSON, Burlington, North Carolina: Burlington, North Carolina.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Oh. What are you doing here today?

CARMEN ANDERSON: I just came out to support my black men, to let them know we're standing behind them all the way.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you think is going to be accomplished here today?

CARMEN ANDERSON: I hope that unity will be accomplished, that we show that we can get together for something that's good and not something that's always bad.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: A scattering of women attended the march and some were also featured on today's program. Although some women's groups took exception to the call for women to stay at home, one of the women featured was civil rights leader Dorothy Height.

DOROTHY HEIGHT, National Council of Negro Women: I am here because you are here. I am glad that you are here, because so much is said negative about the black family and about our black men. We know that one out of every four may be in the correctional system or may be in some kind of destructive pattern, but what is seldom said is that three out of four are not. Three out of four are responsible parents, are good citizens, are carrying their responsibility, and I salute you, because you are the demonstration that there are strong African-American men who are not only our leaders but who are working in all of our communities. African- American women are women who seldom do what they want to do but always do what they have to do. And I feel that we are part of a partnership that is strong, but each of us honors the other.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Some of the most prominent black leaders spoke in the afternoon, including the Rev. Jesse Jackson, who broke ranks with other blacks to support the march.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, National Rainbow Coalition: We can change our self-destructive behavior and use our vote to bring about change. What can a million men do when you go home? If I could get a million men to do five things, take your child to school, meet your child's teacher, exchange home numbers, turn off the TV three hours a night, pick up report card every nine weeks, and sign your child's report card, we can send our children from jail to church to home. What can a million men do? What can a million men do? Meet with judges. Let them--let us nurture our children and let them come home and not jail. What can a million men do? Eight million unregistered black voters on this Hill. Gingrich--they keep asking on television, who organized the march? Who gets credit for the march? Who organized the march? Did Minister Farrakhan organize the march? No. Clarence Thomas and Gingrich organized the march just like Bull Connor organized the march in 1963. [applause] Clarence Thomas, who betrayed our trust, organized the march. Gingrich organized the march. We will not bow. Here's the good news. The Gingrich forces won--this is what they don't want to hear--the Gingrich forces won by 19,000 votes. They're cutting Medicaid. They're cutting Medicare. They're cutting scholarships. They're cutting legal assistance for women who are battered, victims of domestic violence. Well, my friends, we've got the power. Victims. We've got the power. Kennedy beat Nixon by 112,000 votes. What does 8 million votes mean? Nixon beat Humphrey by 500,000. What does 8 million votes mean? We have the power by 1996 to send Gingrich and Gramm and Dole back in private life. Use your vote! We have the power to change the course! [applause] When you go back home today, somebody is going to ask you, you didn't come to work today, you went to Washington, what did you do, say I turned pain into power and promise. What did you see? Well, I didn't see your face. Tell them, I was one of a million. I was one in two million. I didn't see you. Tell 'em they were in the trees, in the cars, in the hospitals, in office buildings, in parks. Tell them for a moment the world stood still. They'll ask you, who are you, I didn't see you in Washington. Well, I was one in a million. Tell them, I have a light and I'm going to let my light shine. Tell them I'm dreaming now, my dream is bigger than my ghetto. Tell them, I'm dreaming again, it's bigger than my jail cell. Tell them, I saw a number like John that no man can number. Tell them, I'm on Patmus Island and yet I see something now, I see power in unity and coalition.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: The last word of the day was reserved for Louis Farrakhan. He responded to President Clinton's remarks on race earlier today.

MINISTER LOUIS FARRAKHAN, Nation of Islam: Now, the President spoke today, and he wanted to heal the great divide. But I respectfully suggest to the President, you did not dig deep enough at the malady that divides black and white in order to effect a solution to the problem. And so today, we have to deal with the root, so that perhaps a healing can take place. I heard the President say today "E pluribus unum"--out of many one. But in the past, out of many comes one meant out of many Europeans come one people. The question today is: Out of the many Asians, the many Arabs, the many native Americans, the many blacks, the many people of color, who populate this country, do you mean for them to be made into the one? If so, truth has to be spoken to justice. We can't cover things up, cover them over, give it a pretty sound to make people feel good. We have to go to the root of the problem. Now, why have you come today? You came not at the call of Louis Farrakhan, but you have gathered here at the call of God, for it is only the call of Almighty God, no matter whom, through whom that call came that could generate this kind of outpouring. God called us here to this place, at this time, for a very specific reason. And now, I want to say my brothers, this is a very pregnant moment, pregnant with the possibility of tremendous change in our status in America and in the world. And although the call was made through me, many have tried to distance the beauty of this idea from the person through whom the idea and the call was made. Some have done it mistakenly, and others have done it in a malicious and vicious manner. Brothers and sisters, there is no human being through whom God brings an idea that history doesn't marry the idea with that human being, no matter what defect was in that human being's character. You can't separate Newton from the law that Newton discovered. It would be silly to try to separate Moses from the Torah, or Jesus from the Gospel, or Mohammed from the Koran. Well, you say, Farrakhan, you ain't no Moses, you ain't no Jesus, and you're not no Mohammed, you have a defect in your character. Well, that certainly may be so; however, according to the way the Bible reads, there is no prophet of God written of in the Bible that did not have a defect in its character. So today, whether you like it or not, God brought the idea through me, and he didn't bring it through me because my heart was dark with hatred and anti-semitism. He didn't bring it through me because my heart was dark and I'm filled with hatred for white people and for the human family of the planet. If my heart were that dark, how is the message so bright, the message so clear, the response so magnificent? [applause] And now, in spite of all that division, in spite of all that divisiveness, we responded to a call, and look at what is present here today. We have here those brothers with means and those who have no means, those who are light and those who are dark, those who are educated, those who are uneducated, those who are business people, those who don't know anything about business, those who are young, those who are old, those who are scientific, those who know nothing of science, those who are religious, and those who are irreligious, those who are Christian, those who are Muslim, those who are Baptists, those who are Methodists, those who are Episcopalian, those who of traditional African religion. We've got 'em all here today! And why did we come? We came because we want to move toward a more perfect union, and if you notice the press triggered every one of those divisions. You shouldn't come, you're a Christian, that's a Muslim thing. You shouldn't come, you're too intelligent to follow hate. You shouldn't come. Look at what they did! They excluded women. You see, they played all the cards; they pulled all the strings, all but you better look again, Willie, there's a new black man in America today, a new black woman in America today, but I stand here today knowing, knowing that you are angry that my people have validated me. I don't need you to validate me. [applause and cheers] I don't need to be in any mainstream. I want to wash in the River of Jordan and the river that you see and the sea that is before us and behind us and around us is validation. That's the mainstream.

MR. MAC NEIL: Minister Farrakhan spoke for nearly two and a half hours standing behind a shield of bulletproof glass.

MR. LEHRER: Now, five different perspectives on the march and its potential impact. Congressman Charles Rangel, Democrat of New York, spoke at today's rally. Congressman J.C. Watts is a freshman Republican from Oklahoma. Julianne Malveaux is an economist, syndicated columnist, and radio talk show host on Pacifica Radio. Robert Woodson is president of the National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise. Hugh Price is president of the National Urban League. Hugh Price, was this march today a good thing for America?

HUGH PRICE, National Urban League: I think if the energy that's been galvanized is turned toward the development of the African- American people to participate in the mainstream from a position of strength, it will have been a good thing. Certainly, the potential is there. It was a triumph of organizing it. It obviously touched very deeply millions of Americans.

MR. LEHRER: J.C. Watts, do you agree?

REP. J.C. WATTS, [R] California: [Oklahoma City] Well, in spite of what we, what we saw and what we heard from some of the leadership, in spite of I think of the lack of credibility that many of the people that spoke today brought to the arena, I think the key is going to be determined by how those that came to the march with, with great intentions of unity, how they execute, once we go back to the grassroots level, and, and try and make a difference.

MR. LEHRER: But generally speaking, you would agree it was a successful event?

REP. WATTS: Well, I think in terms of numbers, I think Minister Farrakhan accomplished what he set out to accomplish. The numbers will continue to grow probably, but I think we all agree there was somewhere from half a million to eight hundred thousand people there, but I think the success is going to be determined by how those that were there execute--will go back to the communities and deal with the problems that are there.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Rangel, you were there. What--what did you think of it, did it work?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL, [D] New York: [Capitol Hill] It was one of the most exciting experiences in my lifetime, and to see that many people sharing brotherhood, sisterhood, and love, and to come to the nation's capitol, where we've had tens of thousands before to express their grievances, and the black male, who finds more than their share of justice and poverty and lack of opportunity, just coming together was an electrifying experience, and so the critics are going to have to really search long and hard to find anything critical of this great American experience.

MR. LEHRER: A great American experience, Ms. Malveaux?

JULIANNE MALVEAUX, Radio Talk Show Host: Well, I'm one of the critics of Congressman Rangel, and I must say this morning when I went out at 4:15 and watched them set up, I too was moved by the spirit and the energy. But at the same time, I think the foundation of this march was fundamentally flawed. When the rhetoric says that the women should stay home, I've got to take issue with that. And although black men did--this was a rally--a feel-good day for African-American men, it really is a pity that African-American women were not welcome there. I cringe at the notion that these people place themselves as inheritors of Dr. King's dream. Dr. King never said, women stay home.

MR. LEHRER: Overview, Mr. Woodson.

ROBERT WOODSON, National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise: I think, as I have said, I approached this with cautious optimism, and I was very pleased, because I always supported the mission of it. And I think that the resume of this march was written in the experiences of those young people. First of all, there was no drinking; there was no rowdiness; the police said it was the most orderly crowd that they had ever experienced; and I think that some of these small gains are very important for African-American men. I don't think that the leadership necessarily understands the impact of what happened out there, as Charlie Rangel said. It wasn't about grievances or complaining or whining. I think the young people came for, genuinely for atonement and affirmation, and so that's--

MR. LEHRER: Well, what about Minister Farrakhan? Many people suggested that the biggest winner of this day, this was going into it, that the biggest winner of this day was going to be Louis Farrakhan. Do you agree?

MR. WOODSON: No. I think the biggest winner was the young men who gathered in great numbers to demonstrate to not only themselves but to America that young black men can assemble and do it in a lawful manner and that they can begin to come together. That--they are the real winners. We've got to understand why Farrakhan has such an influence is because young people don't listen to very much of what we say, but what we do. And they see young men who were drug addicts, who were thieves, standing tall, clean, they're not engaged in drug activity, so he has demonstrated, or at least the Nation of Islam has demonstrated that they can transform people when in the face of the last 25 years, all of the programs that Charlie Rangel and others have hailed as being the saviors of our people and all the civil rights leaders, all of these $5 trillion that was spent, all of these have not done, delivered for our young people, and that's one of the reasons why there's a leadership vacuum.

MS. MALVEAUX: Bob, you know better than that.

MR. LEHRER: Go ahead.

MS. MALVEAUX: I mean, he knows better than to--he's using this opportunity to bash social programs, but, indeed, we can demonstrate that social programs have made a difference. Farrakhan made the call, but there were fliers up that said Farrakhan made the call, the march belongs to us all. The winners were African- American men who are able to turn their image around. These are the people who have been vilified, and now you saw them as you say-- you're 50 percent correct--as you say, umm, really turning that image around. But this does not indict social programs, and again, one of the flaws of this march is you can talk about personal responsibility, but you must also talk about institutional responsibility. And many of the speakers like Rev. Jackson who came to the podium talked about the government role, about what Newt Gingrich and others have done, and about the fact that part of this march was a political call.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Watts--go ahead, Congressman Rangel.

REP. RANGEL: I don't think Bob Wood was indicting social programs. What I thought he was saying is that these programs were not reaching these youngsters. They don't have any hope that they would finish school. When they finish school, they don't have hopes for a job. There's no emphasis on education and teachers as much as there is on, on cops and police. Drugs are the only thing that they know that's in the street, so I think what Bob was saying, that there has been a lack of, of leadership or lack of anybody that I can think of that has been able to understand that these people were looking for something, and they found it with each other today. And so anyone can find something that they think is wrong, but in terms of the totality of this day, I think that for America it was a very educational experience.

MR. PRICE: Let me just interject, if I could.

MR. LEHRER: Yes.

MR. PRICE: Ithink that there is a history of very effective programs being run in this country. We of the Urban League operate very effective after-school programs and education programs across the country. What has been missing is a constituency for these and for an expansion of the kinds of things that make a great deal of sense for young people, that reduce crime and help foster their development. This mobilization effort really provides that potential to get that constituency behind these issues.

MR. LEHRER: But let me go back to you, Hugh Price, on this question of Louis Farrakhan. Going into this, everyone said--a lot of people said--I won't say everyone said--everyone never says anything--but some people suggested that if this was, in fact, a successful event--and I think everybody agrees that at some level this was a huge success--that Louis Farrakhan would emerge in the mainstream, even though he denied he wanted to be in the mainstream--he would be "the leader" of the black community of America, do you agree?

MR. PRICE: Well, I'm not interested in the question of who is "the leader."

MR. LEHRER: Right.

MR. PRICE: I don't think there is any such thing as "the leader." I think what's most important is the point that Bob Woodson made. Millions of people will emerge as leaders in their own communities, and if the kinds of things that we care about around social justice and the development our community are to take place, then we have to assume leadership personally and within our own organizations and communities. And that's what I think was ignited today.

MR. LEHRER: So--do you think Louis Farrakhan has been cleansed as a result of this today?

MR. PRICE: I don't know that he's been cleansed, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that term. He certainly took some gingerly steps toward the mainstream. There was a reaching out to the Jewish community and an indication that there's a willingness to dialogue. I think this was a very constructive day. The jury is out on what becomes of it, but it certainly was a constructive and powerful day.

MR. LEHRER: J.C. Watts, how do you see what Farrakhan accomplished in his own terms today?

REP. WATTS: Well, I, I think I'd much rather focus on the thrust of the 1/2 million or 600,000 or so people that gathered today. Like I said, I think the essence of--or I think the way we're going to gauge the success of this thing is just how people will execute when they go back to, go back to their respective communities. You know, I think it's--you know, we, Bob and we've talked here about the social policy over the last 30 years. You know, long before I became an elected official, I was talking about renewing the culture in this country, and I was talking about renewing the culture in the black community. The black community's culture is not crime and it's not stealing and killing, and it's not prostitution, contrary to what people might think, but, however, it's interesting to me, today I saw some of this come from--or some of the articulation that was had by many of the speakers, you know, attacking people like Clarence Thomas. I mean, what has Clarence Thomas talked about? He's talked about personal responsibility; he's talked about the family; he's talking about strengthening community, dealing with crimes and drugs. But Clarence Thomas has been sold to the American people as--or to many in the black community as a sellout, as an "Uncle Tom." You know, I would much rather--if we're going to talk about getting people into Washington--I would much rather have seen 20 million people of all colors, red, yellow, black, and white, man and woman, Jews, gentiles, Protestants, Catholics, come and have, and have prayer for real racial healing, racial reconciliation, but, you know, you can't have--you can't reconcile a marriage if only one partner shows up at the marriage counselor. There has to be many seats at the table. There has to be many people represented at the table, and, you know, we can't have a great America if we just strengthen the white community or the black community, the Hispanic, the native American community. We all are a family, whether we like it or not. We are a family. We all started from Adam and Eve, contrary to what people might think. And, you know, if we advance in this country by leaving any one of the family members behind, I think we've failed.

MR. LEHRER: And that was one your points earlier, Ms. Malveaux, was that by not including women or anybody else, that that was a divisive act in itself, at the beginning.

MS. MALVEAUX: Well, I would certainly distance myself, however, from the comments that Congressman Watts has just made. I don't think we're quite coming from the same place. I think there was room and there is always room for, given the racial economic gap and the other racial gaps, for African-American people to rally. I just wish that there had been room here for African-American women. Now, many women did come anyway. Some of them were members of the media. But others came--they were in the minority, but they were there simply to show support. What you see often coming from a strain of men in the African-American community is a strong patriarchal tendency. If men can step to the head of their families, then everything will be fine in black America, and that simply isn't the case. African-American people have also been at the cutting edge of the feminist revolution, which has been very important, and we can't attempt to negate that by having this Million Man March.

MR. LEHRER: So the atonement thing for the point of these million men coming and, and atoning for their sins never went down well with you?

MS. MALVEAUX: Not at all. I really do feel that--I'm glad that I amuse you, but in any case, I--

MR. LEHRER: You're talking about Bob Woodson, not me, right?

MS. MALVEAUX: About Mr. Woodson, not you at all. But in any case, I mean, I think the notion of atonement, if people want to talk about self-examination, that's fine, but we live in an institutional context, and I think that that was something that at least was missing early on. Now many of the speakers addressed it, so I don't want to be hypercritical here. But, no, I didn't--I was never a fan of the atonement edge of this march.

MR. LEHRER: Bob Woodson.

MR. WOODSON: Somebody who wants to find insanity is doing the same thing the same way and expecting a different result, and I think that's what we've been doing in the black community for 20 years. I think it's unfortunate that all of the speakers were about my age or maybe a little younger, because we are still hung up with the same remedies of the 60's and just want to apply them to the 90's, when young people are looking for moral absolution. They're looking for spiritual guidance that will transcend partisan politics, Clarence Thomas. I don't think they care about any of that. Feminism, they want to know that 10,000 young black men are blowing each other's brains out on the streets every day--I mean, ever year, and they want to know what they can do to change what they're doing. And that kind of guidance will come from them moving in a different direction. But what they are fed, unfortunately, by a lot of the adults, and even from the podium today is revisionist black history. They're only taught the pain of slavery, the pain and suffering of discrimination. They do not share with our young people those who triumph against slavery, those who triumph against discrimination. When we were in 1863, when a thousand blacks were fired from the docks of Baltimore, Maryland, for striking, we didn't march on Washington demanding jobs, peace, and freedom; we took our own money and established our own railroad, the Chesapeake, Maine Dry Dock & Railroad Company, and operated it successfully for 18 years. When we were denied access to hospitals, hotels, we built our own with our own architects, but our young people are prevented from hearing about what we've accomplished economically and socially before.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Rangel, how would you describe the message that came from that podium today by Louis Farrakhan on back to the beginning this morning?

REP. RANGEL: Well, what Bob Woodson had said was that we don't need one message and it was a variety of different messages, and I think the most exciting thing for the people who came here, these young people who came, the diversity among the group, the lovingness, the reaching out, the feeling that they were in their nation's capital, and they were wanted, the fact that the Capitol police were there as a part of a supportive team. Sure, I would have loved to have seen women there. I can't stretch my imagination to see what role Clarence Thomas would have played, but certainly I would not--I would not have objected to him being there. The thing is that so many different people could have done it in so many different ways, but they didn't call for it. So what I'm saying is I'm not knocking the critics. I'm saying it was a beautiful day, and I think it was a beautiful day for America to be able to see a young black male and not be scared to death to go into an elevator or to talk with him. They were reaching out; there was pleading for a way to get--to be a part of this American dream. They have been cut out of the budget we're dealing here. They're cut out in the street; they're cut out in jobs; they're cut out in hope. And the only time you know that you can really get a young African-American, young man, is when there's a draft or a war to fight. Now, they come in peace and in harmony, and I hope that some of the people that have been so critical might find some way to say these are Americans, they came to our United States capital. Surely, they hope they register, we hope they vote, we hope they participate. But at least, they showed America that they're not invisible, they have pain, but they have love. What a beautiful day for America!

MR. LEHRER: Hugh Price--

REP. WATTS: Another message--you know--a message I think I would love to have heard articulated today is that the unity of the black community doesn't require unanimity. I mean, if you notice, a lot of the articulation that was had today, it was a, it was a group mentality. We all had to think alike. I mean, Charlie, you say you stretch to figure out what role Clarence Thomas would have played in this thing. Clarence happens to be--he's a man whose skin color happens to be black. Clarence Thomas advocates an individual mentality. You know, he steps outside the group mentality, and says, I reserve the right to disagree with J.C. Watts or Charlie Rangel or Bob Woodson or anyone else.

REP. RANGEL: He should have been there then!

REP. WATTS: So I would like to have heard that articulated today.

MS. MALVEAUX: But he also said--

REP. WATTS: We say that, you know, we hear about what the 104th Congress is doing and, and, you know, we debate these issues, and we talk about Medicare being cut and Medicaid being cut and all the social programs being cut--that's helped the black community. Over the last 30 years, we have spent $5.3 trillion in the welfare system. There are people on welfare, they need to be on welfare, but there's a lot of people that should not be there. But the fact is we've spent $5.3 trillion on welfare since 1965.

REP. RANGEL: I don't think that was an issue today.

REP. WATTS: No, no, but we're talking about social programs, as has been mentioned in the last 10 minutes. We are poor. The black community today is worse off today than they were 30 years ago. What have we gotten for that investment? And that's what--those are the kind of things that we need to get up and we need to tell the truth about.

REP. RANGEL: But racism is higher today too!

MS. MALVEAUX: But you might also ask how much we've spent on corporate welfare, No. 1. I mean, I think it disingenuous to talk about the money that we spend on public assistance without talking about the money we've spent on corporate welfare. But, No. 2, if you're stretching your brain to think about Clarence Thomas--

MR. LEHRER: Wait a minute. You can't all talk at once.

MS. MALVEAUX: --if you're stretching your brain to think about Clarence Thomas, there was a strong component of this march that talked about incarcerated African-American men, and Clarence Thomas is the person who wrote that it was not cruel and unusual punishment to break somebody's dental plate while it was in their mouth. So I think in some ways I don't know--I was not invited to be at the march, but I think that Associate Justice Thomas, quite frankly, might have been very uncomfortable there.

REP. WATTS: Why--

MR. LEHRER: Whoop, whoop, whoop! Let me ask Hugh Price a question. Hugh Price, I have a question for you. What happens as a result of this today if--in the ideal world--nobody knows what's going to happen, but if you had your druthers, what good results could come from this? What did you see? Did you see any seeds that were planted that could result in something that from your point of view?

MR. PRICE: Yes. I saw a number of seeds that were planted. I think in an ideal world, if everyone who was there registers to vote and gets five other people to register to vote, and not only to register but actually participate in the political process that empowers the African-American community enormously. I think if every one who's a parent goes back and makes sure that they understand clearly what their children must know and be able to do in order to participate in the 21st century economy and assumes that responsibility for their children, that will be important. I think that message came through. If we go back and organize to make sure that our children have caring adults in their lives after school and we don't spend all of our anti-crime money on more policemen, the fight that Charlie Rangel and the Congressional Black Caucus has been fighting, if we build a constituency for after-school programs for kids so that there's someone there with them after school, that will be good. And I think we saw many of those seeds planted today. The proof will be in whether we organize, mobilize, and assume responsibility to press toward full participation in the mainstream of American life.

MR. LEHRER: What positive seeds did you see planted today?

MS. MALVEAUX: Minister Louis Farrakhan in his over-long speech did have many glimmers of a road map. He asked people to go back and join organizations. He mentioned specifically the Urban League, the NAACP, and a number of others. He asked men to go back and join their churches. If some of the people who were there will go back and work in their communities--there are many blighted African- American communities where just the elbow grease would make a difference--I think that would be good. And I think that when Rev. Jackson and some of the others talked about the role of women, in some ways, they attempted to undercut that exclusionary message of women to stay home. If men go home and think about the issues of gender relations in the African-American community, about all those things that are unacceptable, domestic abuse and other things, those are positives.

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Watts, do you think that the black people in Oklahoma will be affected positively by what happened here today, and do you think it's possible that they could be?

REP. WATTS: Well, I think there are many people that attended the march rally today that had great intentions. I know some people that attended. I was aware that they were going. But I think the- -

MR. LEHRER: Did you urge them to go, or did you discourage them from going?

REP. WATTS: Pardon me.

MR. LEHRER: Did you encourage or discourage them from going?

REP. WATTS: Well, I, you know, I find if you're seven times three, that means you pretty much have a mind of your own, so I had an uncle that attended the rally today, and he, you know, he told me that he was coming, and I wished him well. But I think the success of this is going to be determined, again, by--not by Minister Farrakhan or what Jesse Jackson said. I think those people with good intentions, it's going to be determined by how they go out into the grassroots level and how they execute. That's going to be very critical.

MR. PRICE: There's work to be done in churches, in Urban League affiliates, in community centers all across the country, and if this becomes an army to do that work for our young people and for our adults, then it will have been a remarkable, positive day.

MR. LEHRER: Bob Woodson, how would you judge--what criteria would you lay out of judging the success of this ultimately?

MR. WOODSON: Well, first of all, I wouldn't apply all of the secular kind of solutions that Hugh Price just articulated. That's a part of what we have been pushing for 25 years. The, the killings--

MR. LEHRER: Congressman Watts has to leave. Congressman Watts, thank you very much for being with us tonight. I'm not sure he heard me, but I said good-bye. Okay.

MR. WOODSON: That's okay. But the killings that are occurring are not because Medicaid is being cut, or because social programs. That is a moral and spiritual--I would like to see these young people go back to their churches. I'd like to see them come together--

MR. LEHRER: Do you expect them to do it?

MR. WOODSON: I expect them to do it, but one other thing I would recommend, that a follow-up conference would be held back in their communities, where for three days they would meet and not talk about white people at all, and talk about what the black community can do, and not talk about any problem for which they don't have a solution and begin to build on our strengths. Let's stop just looking at the young people who are destroying themselves and their community and find out why some families are raising children in those neighborhoods infected by crime and violence but their children are not dropping out of school, in jail, and find out what can we learn from them. They are the real experts, not the people up on that podium.

MR. PRICE: Do you feel--

MR. LEHRER: Excuse me.

REP. RANGEL: I think we all--

MR. LEHRER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me ask Bob Woodson question. Do you expect that to happen?

MR. WOODSON: Absolutely.

MR. LEHRER: Based on what happened here today?

MR. WOODSON: Yes, I do.

MR. LEHRER: Okay. Charlie Rangel, what do you--

REP. RANGEL: I think we all are reading from the same page. I've been out there all day. I have never seen the enthusiasm and the sense of pride in young people in my district or anyone else's district that has a predominantly large number of poor black kids. They--they don't have the hope and the vision because it's not there. They see the cop on the beat. They see the courts. They see the jails. They see the lack of job opportunities. They see the schools that have failed them. Now they come and they feel like they're somebody. Don't tell me, Bob, that they don't need support. Our school systems are not working for our young people; there has to be businesses for them; there has to be job opportunities. And certainly there has to be more support for our women and for our children. That goes without saying, but this is a terrific beginning. And for those people who just feel committed to have to knock Minister Farrakhan, hey, get another rally. There's so much more that has to be done, but today I don't think is the time for criticism. It was done the American way. It was done at the U.S. Capitol steps, and I think that now you see faces on the hopes and the dreams and the aspirations of a lot of young kids who didn't think much of themselves but go home ten feet tall.

MR. PRICE: Let me just add--

MR. LEHRER: Yes.

MR. PRICE: --there is a study which shows that juvenile crime is going to double in the next 10 years. The peak period for juvenile crime is in the afternoon from 3 o'clock until 6 o'clock. A program of caring adults in churches and community centers is not a social program. It is an absolutely essential feature of the civilized society. And we have disinvested in those programs for the last ten or fifteen years, while we've built a massive prison industry. That's the point I'm trying to make. While parents are out working their needs to be someone with the teen-agers so that they are put on a constructive course. That's not a social program. That's not pork. That's the essence of a civil society.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Now I'm going to ask all four of you to play historian, future. Is this going to go down some day along on the--on the list with the march on Washington, where Martin Luther King gave his famous "I Have a Dream" speech, Hugh Price?

MR. PRICE: It's certainly got that potential. All the markings are there if it's turned to constructive action.

MR. LEHRER: Do you agree with that, Congressman Rangel?

REP. RANGEL: It's already knocked off the tops in terms of numbers, but each generation, it's each decade is a different problem that begs out for a new solution. Their bringing together of young people of our community I think in and of itself exceeds anything of this type.

MR. LEHRER: Bob Woodson.

MR. WOODSON: I would agree. It confounded all of the experts who predicted that the O.J. trial would go on, I mean, would be settled in weeks, so I think it confounded the experts too, and I'm just pleased that it was a success in terms of these young men proving to themselves that they can come together in peace.

MR. LEHRER: Potentialfor a historic impact?

MS. MALVEAUX: It absolutely was a historical moment. I was there this morning, and I saw the people coming in at 5:30 in the morning; they were halfway down the Mall. I said, you know, to one of my producers, hey, they've got a hit on their hands. Regrettably, this historical moment is marred by the exclusion of women, and I do hope that it does not mean that African-American gender relations are set back a generation.

MR. LEHRER: But you think generally--

MS. MALVEAUX: It's a historical moment but a flawed one.

MR. LEHRER: Okay, thank you all four very much and Congressman Watts, who had to leave early. RECAP

MR. MAC NEIL: Today's top story obviously was the Million Man March. Hundreds of thousands of black men rallied on the Mall in Washington to hear repeated calls for atonement, self-help, and self-respect. The National Park Service estimated a crowd of 400,000 African-American men heard dozens of speakers during the 12-hour rally that started before dawn and ended at dusk. It closed with a two and a half hour speech by the Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan--Minister Louis Farrakhan, who called for the march. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Robin. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.