The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. MAC NEIL: Good evening. I'm Robert MacNeil in New York.

MS. WARNER: And I'm Margaret Warner in Washington. After our summary of the news we look first at efforts to revive the crime bill in Congress, then Kwame Holman reports on the extended Senate debate on health care. A State Department official describes the new deal with North Korea, and we get a report on how the jackal was captured. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. MAC NEIL: President Clinton today stood with relatives of recent murder victims and called for passage of the crime bill. The measure was derailed in a procedural vote in the House last Thursday. Opponents of the $33 billion measure said it contained too much money for what they called pork barrel projects. Others objected to its ban on 19 types of assault weapon. The President was joined today by the father of Polly Klaas, a 12-year-old who was kidnapped from her California home and murdered, the husband of Jody Spozato who was killed in a mass shooting at a San Francisco office building, and the mother of James Darby, a nine- year-old who was shot to death on a New Orleans street.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: There should be no more excuses, no more tricks, no more delays, and no more discussion about whether this bill is a Democratic bill or a Republican bill or a Clinton bill. I don't know when I will ever be able to get it across to people here that what we do here is not about us. It is about the rest of America. So let Congress hear this. Pass the Darby-Klaas-Spozato crime bill, and do it now.

MR. MAC NEIL: Republican leaders claim that billions of dollars in spending for social programs aimed at preventing crime were added to the bill after the initial votes in the House and Senate. Senate Minority Leader Bob Dole today called for compromise. He spoke to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce in Washington.

SEN. ROBERT DOLE, Minority Leader: Our message to the President is, come on, Mr. President, if you want to work this out and you want bipartisanship, let's do it. We had bipartisanship in the Senate, passed ninety-four to five or ninety-five to four, one or the other. They had a big vote in the House. Then it went to the conference, then it sort of fell apart, then they added a lot of things, and I think if we take some of those things out, they could pass the bill.

MR. MAC NEIL: We'll have more on the story right after the News Summary. Margaret.

MS. WARNER: It was more health care talk today but little progress toward passing a bill. Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell accused the Republican leadership of using delay tactics to stall key votes on its health care proposal, but Minority Leader Bob Dole denied the charge. He said Republicans aren't trying to filibuster the bill, only trying to get the Democrats to talk more about the details. We'll have highlights of today's health care debate later in the program. Sen. Dole and other members of Congress joined President Clinton in the White House Rose Garden today for a bill signing ceremony making the Social Security Administration an independent agency. Up until now, it's been part of the Department of Health & Human Services. The President said the stand-alone agency would be more responsive to those it serves.

MR. MAC NEIL: The world's most wanted terrorist has been captured after more than 20 years on the run. Carlos the Jackal was taken into custody by French agents in Khartoum, Sudan, while carrying a false diplomatic passport. He's suspected of masterminding dozens of terrorist attacks since 1970. We'll have more on this story later in the program. In the Gaza Strip, Palestinian authorities arrested at least 40 members of Hamas, the radical Islamic group. The arrests came after Israel's prime minister warned that continuing terrorist attacks on Israelis could threaten Palestinian self-rule.

MS. WARNER: South Korea and Russia today each offered to provide North Korea with safer nuclear reactors than it currently uses. The offer follows an agreement made last Friday by U.S. and North Korean negotiators aimed at easing tensions over the North's suspected nuclear weapons program. In Seoul, South Korea, about 10,000 students rallied in support of unification with the North. They also demonstrated against the U.S. military presence in the South. At least 200 people were injured as police fired tear gas on the protesters. We'll have more on North Korea later in the program.

MR. MAC NEIL: In economic news, the Federal Reserve reported industrial production rose .2 percent last month. It was the 14th straight rise in output at the nation's factories, mines, and utilities. Philadelphia-based Bell Atlantic announced today that it will cut 5600 jobs during the next three years. The company is restructuring to update old equipment. Firefighters in the West are now battling 26 major fires in seven states. In the Northern Rockies, dozens of new small brush fires broke out over the weekend. Three large fires in Idaho are burning close to each other. Officials said they could threaten an area half the size of Rhode Island.

MS. WARNER: Tropical Storm Beryl is moving toward the Gulf Coast of the Florida Panhandle, and residents of two counties have been told to evacuate. The front of the storm is expected to hit tomorrow. Flood warnings have been issued from the Panhandle to Southwestern Georgia. Most of the rain's expected to fall near the same area that experienced severe flooding last month in the wake of Tropical Storm Alberto.

MR. MAC NEIL: Anti-abortion extremist Paul Hill pleaded not guilty today to violating a new federal law allowing safe access to abortion clinics. Hill is accused of killing a doctor and his escort outside a Pensacola abortion clinic last month. His lawyer said he plans to challenge the constitutionality of the federal law. Hill will be arraigned on the state murder charges later this week.

MS. WARNER: That's it for the News Summary. Just ahead, political pressures on the crime bill, more talk about health care, dealing with North Korea, and capturing the Jackal. FOCUS - CRIME STOPPERS?

MR. MAC NEIL: The crime bill is first tonight. President Clinton, as we heard, urged Congress today to take a new vote on the $33 billion bill that was shelved last week on a procedural vote. For that to happen, will there need to be compromises in the legislation? We get the views now of two House leaders. Michigan Democratic David Bonior is the Majority Whip. Texas Republican Dick Armey is the chairman of the Republican Conference. They join us in the studios on Capitol Hill. Congressman Bonior, the Speaker, Mr. Foley, said today in a vote on its merits, the crime bill would pass, but you have to find a way over the procedural hurdle that killed it last week. How are you Democrats going to do that? Are you going to arm twist some Democrats to get the bill through, or are you going to change the bill?

REP. BONIOR: Well, we're hopeful, Robin, that the pressure that the American people have exerted on our colleagues over the weekend will help them realize what a mistake was made last week when the procedural vote was defeated which, as you correctly pointed out, disallowed us from considering the substance of the bill. This is a good bill. It puts 100,000 police officers on the streets. It gets tough on crime, three strikes and you're out. It's got 8 billion in there for prisons. It deals with domestic violence. It deals with gangs. It's a comprehensive large, important piece of legislation. And we're going to have to take the temperature of our colleagues when they come back from this break to find out just exactly how they feel now. 94 percent of the Republicans voted against this -- against this bill last week, and over four out of five Democrats voted for it. So we've got problems, obviously, on both sides of the aisle on it. So we've got to find out where people are.

MR. MAC NEIL: Mr. Armey, from the Republican point of view, is the Speaker right, on the merits would your victory -- if there were a vote onthe merits, would your victory of last week evaporate?

REP. ARMEY: Well, of course, the Speaker knows that that vote on the rule was a vote on the merits of the bill. That's a rather routine around here. We've been for 200 years doing this. If you don't think the bill is adequate, you vote down the rule. Then that is a signal to take the bill back and repair the bill and bring it back. I understand that the Speaker and the White House have made a decision to bring the same bill back and to trust that the President's public relations stints over the weekend, whether it was in Minneapolis, whether it was in the black church yesterday, or whether it was that highly emotional event that he staged in the White House today, will bring the votes to them. I don't know what other lobbying or arm twisting they're doing. But quite frankly, the fundamental problem is that the bill is inadequate, one, in its law enforcement, and especially with respect to the truth in sentencing and the sexual predator provision, and it is laden with too much pork, especially, for example, the $10 million for the Jack Brooks Law Center down in, in his part of Texas. I don't think they've got a big law and order problem down there. I don't know what the $10 million is for, but it's exemplary of the kind of pork that was loaded up in conference.

MR. MAC NEIL: Mr. Bonior, let's come back to the substance of the bill in a moment. Just on procedure, is Congressman Armey right? Are you going to bring back the same bill?

REP. BONIOR: We haven't decided yet, Robin. We're taking the temperature. We're talking to different people and finding out just exactly what they would prefer us to do. We want to get this done. We will get it done before we leave town. And those decisions will be made very shortly.

MR. MAC NEIL: Are the President's criticisms, picking up on what Mr. Armey just said, are the President's criticisms of the Congress, are they shaming any Democrats back into the fold, including the 10 black Democratic Congressmen who voted against the bill?

REP. BONIOR: Well, let me give you a breakdown on this, if I could. We had about 11 members of the Congressional Black Caucus vote against the bill for a variety of reasons, but many of them felt strongly on moral grounds concerning the death penalty and the racial justice issue, and I respect that. We had -- the rest of the Democrats who voted against the procedural motion were concerned primarily with the gun issue, but let's be very clear about this. The predominance of people who voted against this bill last week were Republicans. And I might tell you, Robin, that 65 of those Republicans voted for the bill in April, and the bill in April had about $1/2 billion more in what Dick Armey calls pork, its pork, its prevention programs, there were more money in it in April than there was last week. We cut about 1/2 billion out, and they still voted against it. So we're sort of in a box here in terms of where we go because we've been told different things by different groups vis-a-vis this vote.

MR. MAC NEIL: Well, is your answer that the President's efforts are having an effect in you're picking up some support, or not having an effect?

REP. BONIOR: They are having an effect. We are picking up support. Whether it's enough, I can't tell you. It's too early to tell. We'll know more clearly I think by tomorrow evening.

MR. MAC NEIL: And Congressman Armey, do you sense the President's rhetoric having any effect on Republicans because he's been at great pains to try and shame you into passing this bill as it stands?

REP. ARMEY: Well, first of all, I don't think so. I think the President's missed the boat in understanding why he lost his vote. Frankly, the gun issue has not been changed from the time it left the House till the time it came back. Those votes that were no now that were yes earlier are because of the changes in the -- as I said -- the truth in sentencing, the Sexual Predator Act, and, of course, the pork. And frankly, you can't shame us into voting for a bill if you don't address the substance of the legislation. Nobody cast a vote that they were ashamed of last week. And I think, quite frankly, the President needs to get more serious about legislative efforts, respond to our effort that we made twice to reach out to the President, say let's work on this, let us work on it with you, respond to that. He just ignored that and has gone to public relations. I think frankly he's overplaying the public relations card and he's underplaying the serious legislative compromise work-the-language-out card. He just simply refuses to work with us.

MR. MAC NEIL: Well, let's discuss some of the substance now. Congressman Armey, why are what Mr. Bonior calls crime prevention programs in this bill so offensive to you Congressional Republicans that you're just dismissing it as pork?

REP. ARMEY: Well, first of all, understand that all of this is duplication. That kind of spending, those kinds of programs, they've been out there. We've spent over $4 trillion on the war on poverty, and all of this inner city dilemma we've got has just gotten worse over these years. So to have more of this kind of social spending --

MR. MAC NEIL: We're talking about $9 billion out of the 33, correct?

REP. ARMEY: Right. But at the same time, you're spending the $9 billion -- that funds actually twice as many social workers as you do police. You're not getting a hundred thousand police on the street in this bill. That is simply inaccurate. You're getting about 20,000 police on the beat and that for only three years, in which case after the three years, the cities have to pick up. This is the largest direct grant of funds to the cities since the mid 60's, and it's not for crime control, it's for social spending.

REP. BONIOR: Robin, if I could jump in here for just a second.

MR. MAC NEIL: Sure.

REP. BONIOR: Clearly, 72 percent of this bill is for police officers, enforcement at the federal and state level, prisons, and detention centers. That's what's in this bill. The predominance of the money in the bill is for those measures. We have some prevention money in the bill. And by the way, I might say on that issue, a lot of these programs, the DARE program, the Boys Clubs and the Girls Clubs of America program, programs that deal with gang violence, so we can get our kids away from that type of activity in saying yes to something productive in our society, these are the type of prevention programs we're talking about. In fact, some of them were -- most of these were in the Republican bill. They're using the excuse of pork as a reason to defeat this bill. In fact, the senior member of the Republican Party, one of the senior members on the Judiciary Committee, Mr. Sensenbrenner, said to his colleagues in a letter that he sent out, defeat this bill so we can have this issue in the upcoming election. A senior Republican told me this weekend in a meeting that I had that we are tied to the NRA. This issue is the American people fighting the NRA and the mayhem that's being caused by guns and violence in our cities across this country. We have a teenager that is killed every two hours in America. We have 65 murders a day in this country. We have got to deal with this question. We've got to come together as a country and face the reality of what is happening to our cities and our kids.

MR. MAC NEIL: Are you -- I'm coming to you in a moment, Congressman Armey. Mr. Bonior, are you willing to modify this $9 billion in social programs as the Republicans call them, or pork, to get this bill through?

REP. BONIOR: I think we will get this bill through, and if we have to make some moderation in certain parts of this bill, we will do so.

MR. MAC NEIL: In this, including those parts?

REP. BONIOR: Well, I'm not going to be specific about what parts of the bill, but clearly we've got to make some accommodations if we don't have the votes when we reassess tomorrow. And that will include all parts of the bill.

MR. MAC NEIL: Does that give you hope, Mr. Armey, that something -- some agreement can be reached?

REP. ARMEY: Well, certainly, I would be a lot more hopeful if in fact that the Democrats would work with the Republicans and we could have some say in the changes that will be made in the bill. But quite frankly, the focus on the gun issue is misguided, and especially the Democrat whip who's their vote counter ought to realize that none of the votes that were changed from the time the bill left the House until the time it came back in the Conference Report were changed over the gun issue. They were changed over the watering down of the provisions as they affect teenage gangs, as they affect sexual predators, as they affect truth in sentencing, and the added pork. Now it's not enough to just cut back on some of the social spending. You've got to strengthen the anti-crime legislation.

REP. BONIOR: Robin, again, let me point out the bill that came back from Conference was 1/2 billion less in prevention programs than what 65 Republicans voted for in April.

MR. MAC NEIL: Let me ask Mr. Armey this. Since it's attracted so much attention and you've been accused -- you just were -- by Congress -- do you hear me, Congressman Armey?

REP. BONIOR: I can hear you. I'll relay the message to him.

MR. MAC NEIL: Well, I want to ask him since it's attracted so much attention why is he against banning the 19 kinds of assault weapons covered in this bill?

REP. ARMEY: Because the weapons that are used, and they're deplorable, are used on the street are being used, quite frankly, or bought illegally, it's the wrong focus. The focus should be on truth in sentencing. It should be on --

MR. MAC NEIL: Why -- why are you against that ban when quite large numbers of the public tell pollsters --

REP. ARMEY: I have to tell you, that ban is a very incidental part of this controversy. The only thing that the gun ban does right now in this great debate is serve as a basis for the Democrats to indict the Republicans without mentioning the fact that 58 Democrats were not with the President. If the President had legislation he could sell to his caucus, he wouldn't have to worry about the Republican vote. The fact is 58 Democrats, one out of every five Democrats refuse to vote for the President's bill. He can't even write a bill --

MR. MAC NEIL: Congressman Bonior. Congressman Bonior, in replying to that, would you also say, are you prepared to soften that assault weapons ban, because so many Democrats are opposed to it?

REP. BONIOR: My personal preference is not to soften that ban, Robin. I'll tell you why. Just this last weekend in Dick Armey's area in the Dallas-Ft. Worth area, you had a man, 38-year-old man who was shot to death. This guy worked to combat gang violence in the Ft. Worth area, who was shot to death in his office. A 16-year-old kid from Ft. Worth was involved in the summer youth program. He was shot to death. A 20-year-old from Boss Springs, Texas, was shot to death late Sunday by another 16-year-old, all in the area that Rep. Army represents in Texas. This type of activity is going on all over this country. We've got to put an end to this senseless violence. These guns are used primarily just to kill people, and we have to deal with them --

MR. MAC NEIL: All right. Let me ask you briefly -- we have just a minute here -- let me ask you briefly -- as it stands right now, Congressman Armey -- well, let's start with the Democrats, since they'll be running this -- when do you expect a vote on this -- the next vote on this bill, and what do you expect to happen?

REP. ARMEY: Well, first of all, I assume from everything I'm hearing that the Democrats will bring the same vote back and see if they can get their votes. I must tell you the gun ban issue was settled when it left the House and the bill passed. They cannot get the votes they need by messing with that part of the issue. They've got to focus on that part of the issue that we've enumerated here.

MR. MAC NEIL: Okay, Congressman Bonior, when do you expect another vote on the crime bill?

REP. BONIOR: I expect we'll have one this week, Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: This week.

REP. BONIOR: Yeah. And we don't know, as I said earlier, we don't know if we're going to rerun the same bill or there will be some modifications. We'll have to test the waters on that.

MR. MAC NEIL: Well, gentlemen, both of you, thank you for joining us.

REP. BONIOR: Thank you for having us.

MS. WARNER: Margaret.

MS. WARNER: Still ahead, the health care debate, a deal with North Korea, and catching the Jackal. FOCUS - HEALTHY DEBATE

MS. WARNER: Turning now to health care reform, the Senate today entered its second week of debate on the health care bill, but members aren't making much headway. Congressional Correspondent Kwame Holman reports.

MR. HOLMAN: Even though Senators have been debating health care reform for the past week, they've yet to cast a vote on it. And it appears the lack of action is starting to wear on some of them.

SEN. DONALD RIEGLE, [D] Michigan: So let's vote on it. You want to vote it down, vote it down. But let's not just talk about it endlessly, hour after hour, day after day.

SEN. LARRY PRESSLER, [R] South Dakota: This Senator believes the Senate should proceed in the old-fashioned way. We should have taken the Finance Committee bill and brought it to the floor and start voting on it, start offering amendments and voting on it. This Senator would not object to a vote every half hour with fifteen minutes equally divided, so that the Senate could work its will. This Senator thinks it's very strange that the Senate and the House are proceeding this way.

SEN. HARRY REID, [D] Nevada: I say to my friend through the chair, the senior Senator from South Dakota, is that he should check with the leadership on that side of the aisle. We're ready to vote. We have amendment that's now pending to this legislation, but I sat on this floor Saturday and Friday and heard the distinguished Minority Leader say we need more time, we've only had eleven or fourteen Senators on our side that have been able to make statements about the bill, therefore, go slowly. In fact, one Senator stated he wasn't ready to proceed at this time; he needed more time to study. And it was at that time that the dialogue on the Senate floor indicated that there had been some 85 hearings on health care on this side of the capital, reams of reports. We're ready to go forward, Mr. President.

MR. HOLMAN: Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell had hoped to begin voting on amendments last Friday but under the Senate rules of unlimited debate any Senator can prevent a vote for whatever reason unless 60 Senators vote to proceed. Late this afternoon, an angry Mitchell threatened around-the-clock sessions unless votes begin tomorrow.

SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL, Majority Leader: I simply want to make clear so there can be no misunderstanding on anyone's part if we have not been able to have a vote on an amendment or amendments by tomorrow evening, if we've been prevented from doing so, then the Senate will remain in continuous session, there will be procedural votes at any time without any prior notice, so that we can get moving on this bill.

MR. HOLMAN: But speaking before the U.S. Chamber of Commerce this morning, Minority Leader Robert Dole wasn't about to accept any blame for the Senate's inaction.

SEN. ROBERT DOLE, Minority Leader: And after eight or nine hours of debate, there's already the perception, and the liberal media's buying into this somehow, the Republicans are stalling, stalling, because we want to know what's in the fourteen hundred and some page bill, so I think we have to decide when we're going to do something. We'll decide that as soon as we're sure we're going to have an opportunity to present our statement and to raise questions about their bill.

MR. HOLMAN: So instead of voting, Senators today continued to attack the plan offered by the two party leaders. Tom Daschle of South Dakota criticized the Dole plan.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE, [D] South Dakota: Combining universal coverage and reducing cost shifting, along with achieving meaningful cost containment, is something that goes hand in glove. You can't really have one without the other. You can't have meaningful cost containment if you leave a lot of people uninsured and out of the system, because, again, that cost shifting is going to drive up costs, both administrative and direct. I think you could call the Dole bill the Insurance Industry Protection Act for the kind of difficulties that we have in trying to find cost containment anywhere in the bill. There is no cost containment anywhere to be found in the Dole bill as it's currently written. Someone has -- many people have indicated that the Mitchell bill is 1400 pages. The Dole bill is about 700 pages. I think I happen to have both of them right here with me. It's half as thick because it does half as much.

MR. HOLMAN: Christopher Bond of Missouri responded to the attack on Dole by unveiling his top 10 reasons for voting against the Mitchell plan.

SEN. CHRISTOPHER BOND, [R] Missouri: Reason No. 6, there are 50 new bureaucracies created in the Mitchell bill. I'm not going to list all 50 here, but let me give you some of the most interesting. There's a government health insurance purchasing cooperative, a national health benefits board, a national council on graduate medical education. I don't believe we need more bureaucracy. We don't need 50 new bureaucracies. We need to fix what's wrong with health care, not create 50 new positions from which problems can arise in health care. No. 5, employer mandates will cost jobs. Now we've talked about that before. The Clinton plan went directly to employer mandates. Everybody knows that when you force a new cost on a business, there are several things that canhappen. Either wages can go down, or profits can go down, or most likely, wages will either go down, or people will be laid off.

MR. MAC NEIL: Meanwhile, waiting in the wings, are two bipartisan health care plans. In one, Democrats Boren and Nunn join Republicans Bennett and Domenici to support their version of a bill brought forth by conservative Democrats and Republicans in the House. The other bipartisan effort comes from the so-called mainstream group which has been meeting for several months led by Republican John Chafee and Democrat John Breaux. This afternoon, mainstream group member John Danforth said his group disagrees with Mitchell on more than just the employer mandate issue.

SEN. JOHN DANFORTH, [R] Missouri: One of the interesting things about our meetings are -- is that almost no time have we spent talking about employer mandates. And that may be an exaggeration, but I would say maybe 5 percent of our time and no more than 5 percent of our time have we spent on the subject of employer mandates. But if you read the newspapers, you think that's all we talk about. That's the only subject. So when Sen. Mitchell introduces his new legislation and he seems to be making compromises on the subject of employer mandates, the way that's covered in the media is, well, Sen. Mitchell has come our way, and he's met us halfway, and isn't that good, and we're on the brink of compromise. He has not met us halfway. We are light years away from Sen. Mitchell. He has come close to us or closer to us on employer mandates, not on other subjects. I've tried to make that point to the media. Then the conclusion is, well, these mainstream people don't care about the employer mandate idea, or they've given up on that. Well, there are a variety of opinions among our fifteen or sixteen Senators on the question of employer mandates, but I think it would be fair to say that most of us don't like the idea. We don't think it's a good idea. We don't think it should be included in the legislation. But my point is that that's a fraction and a small fraction of the total issues before us.

MR. HOLMAN: Members of the mainstream group hope to sit down with Majority Leader Mitchell tomorrow to discuss amending his bill or offering their own plan separately.

MS. WARNER: Still ahead, coming to terms with North Korea, and catching the Jackal. But first this is pledge week on public television. We're taking a short break now so your public television station can ask for your support. That support helps keeps programs like this on the air. FOCUS - CRISIS DEFUSED?

MS. WARNER: Next tonight, the United States and North Korea. Late last Friday, the two countries announced a partial accord on some of the nuclear disputes that had raised tensions between them. Talks will resume next month to try to resolve the remaining issues. We get an update now from Lynn Davis, Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs. Welcome, Madame Secretary.

SEC. DAVIS: Good evening.

MS. WARNER: Lay out, if you could for us, first what are the major elements of this deal that you struck last Friday.

SEC. DAVIS: Well, the most important element is that the freeze is still in place, i.e., the North Koreans are continuing to forego nuclear reprocessing, the refueling of their nuclear reactor, and the IAEA remains present in observing that that freeze is in place. So the basis for our negotiations are continuing, and we've taken a few steps now to put in place the elements of a final resolution that would resolve the nuclear issue between ourselves and North Korea.

MS. WARNER: And what is the U.S. agreeing to do in return in this interim phase?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, North Koreans are going to move to replace their current reactors with light water reactors. We are going to provide assurances that they will be able to develop and construct those reactors and finance those reactors. And for that, the North Koreans will end forever reprocessing their nuclear fuel and essentially give up their capability to be a nuclear power, to abide by --

MS. WARNER: I'm sorry. Let me make sure I understand what you're saying now is this is what you hope will be the ultimate deal.

SEC. DAVIS: That's right. These are the elements of a final resolution. So we we're putting in place the final package. All of that package is not yet in place, and many details have to be worked out. So this is a step towards that final resolution, a very important step, but still much to be worked out in the final details.

MS. WARNER: Would you say this is a breakthrough?

SEC. DAVIS: I'd say this is an important step. It's not a breakthrough because the deal won't be made until the whole deal is made, till all the elements are put in place, and there are still important details to be worked out, an important step.

MS. WARNER: Let's look at some of these major elements, first on the North Korean side. Now, there were these 8,000 spent fuel rods that were taken out of that reactor, what, six weeks ago, or whatever, and put in these cooling pools. What is going to -- and of course, they could be used to -- they could be reprocessed to make nuclear fuel. What's happening to those 8,000 rods?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, right now those rods are in the fuel ponds, as you suggest. They're not going to be reprocessed during the time in which we continue to work out the details, and one of the issues still to be worked out is what happens to those fuel rods, and we are hoping that those fuel rods will be shipped out of the country, and so we're working on the details of that. But at a minimum, they're not going to be refueled, and that's what's important today.

MS. WARNER: But aren't they corroding and deteriorating in these ponds? Doesn't something have to be done with them?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, they're corroding. Actually, we don't know precisely what's happening to those fuel rods. We've offered technical assistance to the North to understand better how to preserve those rods so that there are no dangers to those rods. But right now, the point, the important point is the rods are there, and they're not being refueled.

MS. WARNER: Then you also mentioned that the reactor from which they were taken won't be refueled now, and they were constructing two larger new reactors. They will halt that construction, correct?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, they are not halting that construction today, but as an element in the final resolution they will forego further construction of those two reactors and the reprocessing facility that they also have. So this is part of the final resolution not today.

MS. WARNER: I see. So from now till September 23rd, when you go back to new talks in Geneva, the construction continues on those?

SEC. DAVIS: There is probably some construction still going on, but, again, we're looking towards the time in September when we can put the final package back together, all the elements, and so we would hope that at that point in time with our assurances with respect to their light water technology reactors that they would then stop that construction and pledge no more reprocessing.

MS. WARNER: Just so I understand, in this interim from -- in the next five weeks, is there really anything new, or is really just simply a continuation of the freeze that's been in place for the last six weeks?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, any negotiation you have to start at the beginning and put together the whole, whole set of elements. Between now and the next round of these discussions, we will have experts meetings, North Koreans coming to the United States, perhaps some Americans going to North Korea. And so a number of expert discussions will be taking place, i.e., a real process is underway and towards bringing about this final resolution. It's not just a single set of negotiations and five weeks' hiatus. There's negotiations, experts, another set of negotiations.

MS. WARNER: But I mean, the situation on the ground over there, nothing changes, that's basically --

SEC. DAVIS: Well, that's the most important part is they are during this period of time going to be able to make more nuclear materials.

MS. WARNER: Now what about the issue that precipitated this crisis in the first place, which was of course the international community's demand to find out whether they diverted plutonium way back in '89 and have used that to make one or two bombs, as I guess the U.S. suspects, are they still denying access to the sites for inspectors, the kind of access that we take, find out what has really happened, what really happened in '89?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, one of the important elements that has been agreed last week in the discussions is that North Koreans will be a party to the NPT and carry out their --

MS. WARNER: That's the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

SEC. DAVIS: The Non-Proliferation Treaty -- and carry out their agreement under that treaty with respect to their obligations to the IAEA, so that's the basis upon which we will understand and learn what's happened in the past and carry out these special inspections.

MS. WARNER: So you interpret that to mean that they do have the intention to allow this kind of inspection?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, I would be the last to interpret precisely what it is that's in the minds of the North Koreans, but they have agreed now to this element, very important to a final resolution of this, of this crisis and one that is essential, they understand that it's essential, i.e., we need to understand what's happened in the past as well as prevent anything happening in the future.

MS. WARNER: Now if we turn to what the U.S. international community is agreeing to do, there's some discussion in some news reports about opening, the U.S. and North Korea opening liaison offices in one another's capitals. Is -- what's the timetable on that? Does that start happening right away?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, what happens right away is that one of the experts' groups will be laying out the details of that. So we will start to put behind that goal the specificity necessary to make that happen. But it will be one of the elements of a final resolution. So at this point until all is agreed, nothing actually starts happening with respect to implementing these elements. We would hope that in the coming two weeks they'll put the details behind that particular element.

MS. WARNER: So can you imagine though that the U.S. would ever do that part of it before say getting access to these suspect sites and finding out what happened in '89?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, the whole sequencing will take some more negotiations because of course, it's going to take a fair number of years to actually construct this light water reactor, so it is a period of time in which we will be sequencing in these various parts of the package. And that still has to be worked out.

MS. WARNER: So can you imagine -- I mean, will everything have to go forward at the same time, or could you imagine the U.S. as a carrot actually agreeing to open these liaison offices before getting the full transparency in the term of art, the full knowledge and access to these suspect sites?

SEC. DAVIS: We have to understand clearly what's been happening in North Korea's nuclear program, and that's part of the package. Also part of the package will be their foregoing nuclear reprocessing, foregoing the construction of these reactors. So I can't tell you precisely today exactly how they'll be sequenced, but I can say that we will have to have a common understanding of the full package and the full implementation before any of the steps actually get underway.

MS. WARNER: And now you've mentioned a couple of times the light water reactors that would be replacing the current reactors in the North and, of course, the South Korean president today offered to provide one, so did the Russians. The North Koreans, I gather, would rather get it from the Russians, is that it, is that true, and not be dependent on South Korea? How do you see that working out?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, I think at this point the American assurance is the most important first step, and in that context, the vice foreign minister suggested that he would be open to the possibility of a South Korean reactor. And so a very important step now has been the South Koreans offering this today, i.e., helping in the construction, the technology, and the financing. And so we're starting to put together the whole package, and that's what the U.S. role is, is to make good on the move that the North Koreans have agreed to do, and that is to replace their old reactors with this new light water reactor.

MS. WARNER: But, again, is that something that would wait for the whole package to be negotiated and, and sort of signed on the dotted line before it would go forward?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, we're going to start the expert talks on this subject as well with the North Koreans and then working with our allies and friends to put together the whole consortium and package to make this possible. So nothing is there till we have all the pieces, but all the little pieces are starting to fall in place and that's what's important for what's happened today.

MS. WARNER: And now, a light water reactor is preferable. Why? Because what it produces as its spent fuel cannot be used to make nuclear weapons, or --

SEC. DAVIS: It's very difficult to use the material to make nuclear weapons in contrast to what is produced by these graphite reactors that the North Koreans have today and are constructing for the future.

MS. WARNER: I see. And tell me, Ms. Davis, could you tell anything yet about this new leadership we have in North Korea -- or they have in North Korea, could you tell anything yet in your negotiations about what direction they're moving in?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, the most important is the continuity from the great leader now to the new leadership and that they came back to the negotiations, picked up where they left off, and were able to move as quickly as we were last week to the elements of this agreement. But beyond that, it's very difficult still to probe behind what's happening and what the new leadership is exactly about.

MS. WARNER: And why do you think that in just a week's time you were able to get this agreement?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, because we're putting together a package that serves the goals of both sides. That's what negotiators set out to do, and that's what we're beginning to put in place with this, with this negotiation.

MS. WARNER: But I mean, the North Koreans have been pretty difficult to deal with in the past. Why do you think -- what was new here that the U.S. was offering?

SEC. DAVIS: Well, we'd always said if we got back to this negotiation, we would look for a broad and thorough approach to resolve all the issues on both sides. We have that opportunity now, and it looks like we're beginning to put in place that broad and thorough approach.

MS. WARNER: Well, Madame Secretary, thanks very much. Thanks for being with us.

SEC. DAVIS: Nice to be here, thank you. FINALLY - CAGING THE JACKAL

MR. MAC NEIL: Finally tonight the capture of one of the most notorious terrorists in the world, the man known as Carlos the Jackal. He is spending tonight in a French jail after being arrested in Khartoum by Sudanese authorities. They said he'd entered Sudan on a false passport and was taken into custody several days ago. Kent Barker of Independent Television News has a report.

MR. BARKER: For two decades, the Parisian headquarters of Interpol has housed growing files on a South American man now age 45 known as Carlos the Jackal. He's also known as the world's most wanted terrorist and been behind some of the century's most audacious attacks against mainly Israeli and French targets. Police knew that at some time he'd found refuge in the Lebanon and Syria and the Yemen, but it was finally in Sudan that he was apprehended and handed over to the French. Today in Paris, a jubilant interior minister explained how rumors had surfaced at the start of the year that the man they believed to be in Syria was, in fact, in Africa.

CHARLES PASQUA, French Interior Minister: [speaking through interpreter] Yesterday morning the Sudanese authorities let us know that they had positively identified Carlos and that they were prepared to immediately hand him over to the French judicial authorities.

MR. BARKER: Carlos was born in Venezuela on October 12, 1949. His father, a Communist lawyer, named his son Illich Ramirez Sanchez, after Vladimir Illich Lenin. In 1964, he joined the Communist students' movement in Caracas. Four years later, he went to university in Moscow [Lumumba University Moscow]. By 1971, he'd been recruited by the popular front, the Liberation of Palestine, and sent to train at its camp in Jordan before being assigned to its foreign operations branch.

DAVID YALLOP, Author, To the Ends of the Earth: the Hunt for the Jackal: He took part in the civil war that we call Black September, probably the only non-Arab to fight in that war, but then moved further to an extreme position joining Wadi Hadad who was a member of the PFLP. The multiple hijacks of the 70's which you may remember, that was Hadad. The Lord Airport massacre, that was Hadad. This was a man who believed in the philosophy of terror. And for the next two or three years from 1970 to '73, '74 committed himself to the Palestinian struggle, but then in '75 sold out.

MR. BARKER: After joining the PFLP and Wadi Hadad, Israeli targets became the focus of Carlos's terrorist attacks. In 1972, they attacked the El Al plane at Tel Aviv Airport, killing 25 people and wounding 70. In 1973, Edward Sieff, the head of Maups & Spencer, was wounded in an assassination attempt in London. British police said they wanted to interview Carlos. In 1975 came his most audacious act, kidnapping 11 oil ministers at an OPEC meeting in Vienna and eventually collecting $20 million in ransom. Then came a turning point in his career.

DAVID YALLOP: In 1975, he shot and killed two unarmed French agents, seriously wounded a third, and killed his own controller, thereby exposing all of the safe houses that Wadi Hadad had established in London, in Frankfurt, and in Paris. To cover their embarrassment, the French intelligence said, well, of course this was no ordinary terrorist, this was Russia's James Bond, a senior officer in the KGB, entire disinformation which was to cover the embarrassment of him getting away. British intelligence, MI6, thought what a grand scheme, because the Cold War was then quite cold, so they began to label various crimes that have been unsolved towards Carlos. The CIA did the same, so then the myth began, so that within the summer of 1975, he moved from being totally unknown to being the world's most wanted man.

MR. BARKER: As Carlos's fame ensured he was credited with ever more outrageous attacks so his whereabouts became equally mythical, certainly at various times he was based in Syria and in Lebanon, and also at the height of the Cold War he was able to move freely in and out of the Eastern Bloc. Perhaps most extraordinarily, he became linked with Caesescu in Romania. While Stasi files showed he'd been a regular visit to East Germany, Hungarian authorities later reported he'd moved freely in and out of Budapest, traveling on a Yemeni passport. In 1984, he surfaced again in France, claiming responsibility for two New Year's Eve bombings in Leon and Marseilles. The capture of Carlos was leading the news on Sudanese television today, but the role of the Islamic African state in facilitating his arrest is puzzling some observers. It's known he's been held before but released after due consideration of his extensive network of contacts.

DAVID YALLOP: He represents enormous danger for people like Assad, for Rafsanjani, for other leaders, and also intelligence agencies here in the West, including some in Europe, including some of our long-term allies who he has done deals with over the years which have been why he's been able to survive.

MR. BARKER: In France, Carlos has already been tried in absentia and sentenced to life imprisonment for the murder of French nationals. Tonight he was driven to a Paris prison on the floor of a police van. He's due to appear in court next Monday, and police forces in many countries, including Britain, will want to interview him. But Carlos the Jackal may remain a considerable embarrassment as the terrorist who knows too much for the comfort of too many. RECAP

MS. WARNER: Again, the other major story of this Monday, President Clinton turned up the pressure on Congress to revive the crime bill. At a White House ceremony with families of crime victims, Mr. Clinton said there should be no more tricks or delays in passing the bill. Senate Republican Leader Bob Dole called for compromise, saying the legislation contained billions of dollars in social programs should be dropped. Good night, Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: Good night, Margaret. That's the NewsHour for tonight. We'll be back tomorrow night with more on the health reform debate and to continue Charlayne Hunter-Gault's series on preventing teenage violence. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.