The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer

JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight, Ray Suarez runs a discussion about Pope John Paul II's trip to the Holy Land, Defense Secretary Cohen talks about Asia and Kosovo, Elizabeth Brackett reports from Chicago on the problems in taking the 2000 Census, and Margaret Warner looks at a new test for heart disease. It all follows our summary of the news this Thursday.

NEWSMAKER

JIM LEHRER: Pope John Paul II made a dramatic visit to Israel's Holocaust Memorial today. He said the Roman Catholic Church is deeply saddened by Christians' persecution of Jews throughout history. Israeli Prime Minister Barak welcomed the words. Others said the Pope should have apologized for the Church's failure to condemn Nazi atrocities when they occurred. We'll have more on the Pope's Holy Land visit right after this News Summary. In Germany today, negotiators agreed on how to compensate Nazi laborers. Former slaves in concentration camps will receive up to $7,500 each. Forced laborers in factories will be paid up to $2,500. There's also money for property claims. The payments will come from a $5 billion fund provided by Germany's government and industry. President Clinton today urged women in an Indian Village to fight poverty and inequality. He met with members of a women's milk cooperative as part of his South Asia trip. The group is working for childcare, higher wages, and improved education for girls. The president praised their efforts.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: There are many people here who are poor, but you are proving that democracy can be used to lift the poor, can be used to end discrimination against women and keep children, girls and boys in school, and can be used to bring people of different tribes and castes together.

JIM LEHRER: From India, Mr. Clinton is to go to Pakistan on Saturday. Today, the military ruler there promised local elections sometime between December and May. General Musharraf seized power in a bloodless coup last October. A White House spokesman called the announcement a positive step. But he said the President still wants to see national elections. Back in this country -- opened a criminal inquiry into White House e-mails on campaign fund-raising. The probe was revealed in a civil suit brought by a conservative legal group. Congress subpoenaed the e-mails, but White House officials said there was no way to retrieve them. They blamed computer breakdowns. The House debated a Republican budget bill today totaling $1.8 trillion. It would cut taxes by at least $150 billion over five years, and spend more on defense and education. Democrats said it does not do enough for Social Security and Medicare. Leaders on both sides assessed the plan.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT, Minority Leader: Clearly Republicans still haven't gotten the message. The American people want a budget plan that pays off the debt, extends the life of Social Security and Medicare, provides a prescription drug plan for all seniors and addresses our pressing health and educational priorities, so this is not the right budget.

REP. JOHN KASICH, Chairman, Budget Committee: I believe in a good ol' fashioned fair fight. But let's fight on the facts. Let's not make stuff up, let's not scare people. The question today is whether we're going to advance the reform agenda in Washington or whether we're going to continue to be obstacles in this town to the need to reform and pare down government and prioritize government and clean up waste, fraud and abuse and protect Social Security and provide tax relief. If you are for the reform agenda, you'll support this budget.

JIM LEHRER: A vote is expected late tonight. A Senate version has been blocked in the Budget Committee. Conservatives want a bigger tax reduction and less spending. A Chicago priest became the House chaplain today, ending a four-month battle. Reverend Daniel Coughlin is the first Catholic to hold the post. He was sworn in after a Presbyterian minister withdrew from consideration. House Speaker Dennis Hastert then named Coughlin. Originally he chose the Presbyterian minister over another Catholic priest, but some Democrats charged religious bias. Today, the Speaker accused them of playing an unseemly political game. On Wall Street today, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed above 11,000 for the first time in seven weeks. It rose 253 points to close at 11,119, a gain of more than 2%. The NASDQ Index gained 75 to close at 4940. Analysts said a rally in high- tech stocks spread throughout the broader market. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to the Pope's trip, Defense Secretary Cohen, the 2000 census, and a new heart test.

FOCUS - PILGRIM'S JOURNEY

JIM LEHRER: The Pope's visit to the Holy Land and to Ray Suarez.

RAY SUAREZ: Of all of the historic stops on Pope John Paul II's trip this week, his visit today to the Holocaust memorial known as Yad Vashem had been one of the most widely anticipated. And it was also one of the most personal for the 79-year-old pontiff. At a ceremony, the Pope spoke eloquently of the Church's sorrow for the victims of the Holocaust. But he stopped short of apologizing for the Church's silence at the time.

POPE JOHN PAUL II: We wish to remember for a purpose, namely to ensure that never again will evil prevail as it did for the millions of victims of Nazism. How could man have such utter contempt for man?

RAY SUAREZ: The Pope's visit, which was carried live on Israeli television, had been widely watched as the latest attempt of his long crusade to heal the rift between Jews and Christians. And his words today were praised by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and many Holocaust survivors.

ELI ZBROWSKI, Holocaust Survivor: What the Pope did, this Pope, is a turning point in history, and we appreciate that. And I'm sure that the majority of the Jewish people in Israel and throughout the world appreciate that, and are thankful to the Pope.

RAY SUAREZ: But others said the Pope did not go far enough in accounting for Pope Pius XII's silence during World War II.

MEIR LAU, Chief Rabbi, Israel: This apology was quite fine. But for educational reasons I was expecting condemnation of the silence of the world, especially of the Church, and especially Pius XII, who had to say more and to do more in order to save innocent lives who were victims of the Holocaust. If he would say a word, I don't believe there would be six million Jewish victims.

RAY SUAREZ: Today's stop at Yad Vashem and Jerusalem was the latest on a six-day trip that includes stops in Jordan and the Palestinian territories. The Vatican has insisted this week's events are primarily a religious pilgrimage devoted to following in Jesus' footsteps during what's being observed as the 2,000th anniversary of his birth. But the trip has been caught up in the vortex of Middle East politics, making it one of the most sensitive of his papacy. During a stop yesterday at a Palestinian refugee camp on the West Bank, the Pope said he was concerned about the plight of the more than three million Palestinians. With Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in attendance, he also called again for a Palestinian homeland.

POPE JOHN PAUL II: The Holy See has always recognized that the Palestinian people have the natural right to a homeland and the right to be able to live in peace and tranquility with the other peoples of this area. Your tolerance is before the rest of the world.

RAY SUAREZ: And Chairman Arafat was pleased with the Pope's statements.

YASSER ARAFAT (Translated): The Palestinian people value highly your principled position in support of their causes and their rightful presence in their homeland as a sovereign and independent people.

RAY SUAREZ: The Pontiff has particularly looked forward to this millennial visit first planned more than five years ago. Just 2% of the population in the Holy Land are Christians, but more than 60,000 pilgrims flew in from around the world to see him and attend the Masses.

POPE JOHN PAUL II: This year, of the 2000th anniversary of the birth of Jesus Christ, it has been my strong personal desire to come here and to pray in the most important places, which from ancient times have been God's intervention the wonders He has done.

RAY SUAREZ: The turnout on the streets has been enormous for his Masses, like this one in Bethlehem's Manger Square, the site of Jesus' birth. John Paul's trip has also taken him to numerous sites of significant religious importance for Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Yesterday he conducted a special Mass for clergy after visiting a grotto at Mount Zion, believed to be the site of Jesus' Last Supper. Today, he saw the old city of Jerusalem. The Pope will wrap up his visit with a visit to Nazareth and the Western Wall.

RAY SUAREZ: Joining us now are Yvonne Haddad, Professor of History at the Center for Muslim-Christian understanding at Georgetown University; Susannah Heschel, chair of the Jewish Studies program at Dartmouth College; Scott Appleby, director of the Cushwa Center for the Study of American Catholicism at the University of Notre Dame-- he is also the author of "The Ambivalence of the Sacred: Religion, Violence and Reconciliation"-- and Rashid Khalidi, Professor of Middle East History and director of the Center for International Studies at the University of Chicago.

Susannah Heschel, certainly the active repentance of a few weeks ago raised expectations about the Pope's visit to Yad Vashem. What do you make of his words today?

SUSANNAH HESCHEL, Dartmouth College: First of all I have to say that it was a deeply moving experience to hear the Pope come to Yad Vashem and speak about Jewish suffering using the words of the Bible and with such empathy. It was a historic event. It's going to be mentioned in textbooks of Jewish history that go from Abraham to the 21st century -- this day that the Pope came to Yad Vashem. And I think for Catholics it was extremely important. Worldwide they heard their Pope affirm the validity of Judaism and speak about Jewish suffering. It was a lesson for them but for Jews, it was for many Jews problematic. This Pope has been at the forefront of Catholic-Jewish relations, so Jews expected him to go a little further today. Some Jews has hoped for an apology for the Holocaust. And other Jews hoped for an expression of responsibility for the Vatican and for Pius XII and his deeds during the years of the Holocaust and they were disappointed.

RAY SUAREZ: Well, it's an old institution the Catholic Church. Incrementalism is often the way to go. After you heard the Pope earlier this month, do you think it was really setting the table for something much more serious that you were looking for?

SUSANNAH HESCHEL: Yes, an articulation of specific responsibility. He spoke today specifically about Christians who acted heroically during the Holocaust to saves Jews but he might have also spoken about those who failed to save Jews -- those who failed to hear the cry of the Jew during the war years. And we had hoped for that, yes. And that was a disappointment.

RAY SUAREZ: Scott Appleby, your reaction to the address at Yad Vashem?

SCOTT APPLEBY, University of Notre Dame: Two things: The Pope is not the only, he is the prominent spokes person for the Catholic Church but he has inaugurated a dialogue. The International Theological Commission, which issued a document two weeks ago, was much more specific about the failures of the Catholic Church. Second point is I don't think it's real stick to expect the Pope to criticize his predecessor openly and publicly because it's not far from that kind of criticism to those who would want the entire institution of the Church and, in fact, Catholics, themselves, to apologize for their existence. There is no question in Catholics' minds that Pope Pius XII made errors and that the Church wasn't as courageous as it should have been. But there is also a risk here the Pope takes in opening up the Catholic Church to all its opponents who would say we were right all along, the Church is nothing but an instigator of hatred and violence -- and to criticize his predecessor that way would I think in that public forum be going too far.

RAY SUAREZ: Rashid Khalidi outside the two groups that see themselves as most directly implicated in the one like at Yad Vashem today, is there going to be much of a reaction?

RASHID KHALIDI, University Of Chicago: Well, I think that there will be a reaction to all the other things the Pope has been doing on this trip. Each day he seems to be making history, to be making statements that speak to important political issues even though this is a personal, spiritual pilgrimage. The very fact that he has visited the Palestinian territories - the very fact that he is in Israel by and of itself I think have enormous importance. The fact that he will be taking steps in Jerusalem in the next couple of days which in different ways will be seen as reinforcing the position of the Church, as far as the international status of the city and final status negotiations or the positions of either Israel or the Palestinians, I think will have great significance. There is no question that what he said today at Yad Vashem was of great importance but it will have importance primarily I think to Jews and Catholics. The other thing that he will be doing and has been doing have importance to all Israelis, all Palestinians, and I think people who are interested in peace in the Middle East.

RAY SUAREZ: Why? Why is there such a focus on what will this man says and does in a place in the world where there are very few of his own --

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, it's the place where Christianity original natures. What he is doing and saying I think reinforces the links I think between the monotheistic religions - not only Judaism but also Islam. However, he is the head of a major institution. The Church has over a thousand schools, churches, orphanages, and so forth, for which it's responsible in the Holy Land. And as a temporal ruler, the Pope is and has been in these negotiations with the Israelis and the Palestinians over the last couple of years careful to make sure that he cemented the position of the Church. Finally, the Pope has enormous moral authority speaking out about Palestinian suffering as he did yesterday or about Jewish suffering as he did today, he spotlights -- he underlines in a way perhaps no one else in the world today can, important moral issues.

RAY SUAREZ: Professor Haddad what do you think about that, does the Pope have the power to actually move things in this part of the world?

YVONNE HADDAD, Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, Georgetown University: I think what he did was he highlighted to the word there is a presence of Christians over there which most of the world had forgotten. I think that he hasn't done enough for them. They would have expect that had he would have done more. For example, he talked about Palestinian homeland and out of state. He didn't mention the fact that the Palestinians both Christians and Muslims have a stake in Jerusalem. I think what he did today was very important. What he did yesterday was very important. But there are many people in the Middle East who are still unhappy and it's not only the Jews who think that he hasn't done enough; it's the Christians who think he hasn't done enough and Muslims who think he hasn't done enough.

RAY SUAREZ: You mentioned the use of the word homeland instead of state for a Palestinian entity. Why is something like that so important and if he had used the word "homeland -- "state," rather, wouldn't it have been seen as a tremendous departure from where the negotiations have gotten so far?

YVONNE HADDAD: The thing is we're hung up on the negotiations. There have been so many statements by the United Nations that is have specifically said that the Palestinians deserve a state and the negotiations seem to be eating away from it, and there is a need to bring to the attention of the world that there are so many Palestinians who are still outside of Palestine. Some are in the refugee camp. Some of the refugees he visited but there are Palestinians who are stranded in Lebanon that the world has forgotten about, and it is, you know, it is a fact that there are some Arab Christians and Muslims who are still waiting for the Jewish people to apologize for what they have done to the Palestinians. I mean, he apologized to the Jewish people for the Holocaust but, you know, the Holocaust did not end in Europe. It also is playing out in the lives of the Palestinian people. And they feel that they are paying a price for it. And so if you look at some statements that came out of, you know, Egypt today and some of the Palestinians, they are asking for, you know, somebody like the chief rabbi of Israel to apologize. You know, some people are asking why didn't the Pope go to another area which is the site of a Jewish -- the Israeli where they massacred the Palestinians. There are a lot of issues that came up in which he was trying to balance his treatment of Jews, Muslims and Christians but it really is such a political area and everything he did has some ramifications. Therefore, there are some Christians who are still unhappy and there are Muslims who are unhappy.

SCOTT APPLEBY: Could I make the point -

RAY SUAREZ: Go ahead.

SCOTT APPLEBY: I think we misread the Pope's visit when we cast it exclusively in political terms. Of course what the Pope says and does has political ramifications and implications, but he is not primarily a negotiator of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He is not going to get into specifics of statehood. What -- but he is extraordinarily influential on the level of culture. And that is what this pilgrimage is about. It's reaching out to Muslims and Jews, to the religious actors in the region. And it's true -- Catholics are in the minority - but because this Pope is very much in the spirit of the Second Vatican Council, which proclaimed the dignity of all people in the image of God, he wants to build peace from the bottom up from the religious traditions. That is his focus. He is not there to negotiate the political details of the settlement.

RAY SUAREZ: But if we are to take that as face value, isn't there a risk inherently involved in having such a full schedule which goes to places that crick on the sensitivities of the three groups that is focused on that part of the world?

SCOTT APPLEBY: There is no question that it is a risky and some would say courageous series of events that have been carefully planned precisely to underscore the dignity of these various groups and religious bodies and peoples. The Pope is always sympathizing with the suffering on all sides because he wants to reach to that common core of humanity which is the source of possible negotiations and reconciliation.

RAY SUAREZ: Susannah Heschel talk a little bit about that balancing act because obviously this is being watched closely inside Israel by rank and file Israelis on the street.

SUSANNAH HESCHEL: Yes, it is. And for a long time Israelis haven't been very interested in Christianity or in the Vatican or Catholic politics. So this is bringing to the attention of Israelis Christianity and in a very serious way for the first time. But I'd have to say that the common core of humanity that the Pope wants to bring together can't be reached without the very specific differences articulated first. And that is part of the problem. The question of apology is something I would like it address for a moment. There are some Jerusalem who feel that the Pope should apologize for the Holocaust because unfortunately there are some Jews who look at a cross and see a swastika. They confuse the Nazis with the Vatican. They confuse the perpetrators with the bystanders. There is an important distinction that has been to be made. What the Nazis did is one thing. What the Vatican did is another question actually and what the Pope really needs to do at this point is to open Vatican archives so that historians can determine finally what exactly Pius XII did or didn't do, what his intentions were, and so forth, and what also happened at the end of the war. Why is it that so many Vatican officials helped former SS officers flee Europe and escape to South America? Why did that happen?

SCOTT APPLEBY: But to have the Pope apologize to for the Holocaust would reinforce the tendencies you are describing to equate Catholicism and Christianity -

SUSANNAH HESCHEL: Yes, it would.

SCOTT APPLEBY: And I think that's not legitimate.

SUSANNAH HESCHEL: I don't want to see an apology. For one thing, I don't think that an apology is commensurate with the horror of the Holocaust; it's just not appropriate and if the Pope were to apologize then to whom -- not to me as a Jew. He would have to apologize to the people who were murdered. I can't accept an apology on his behalf. Nor are Jews really prepared to accept an apology and offer forgiveness -- would be inappropriate. So I agree. Instead of an apology, we should simply have an opening of the Vatican archives so that we can articulate the responsibility -- what exactly happened.

RAY SUAREZ: Rashid Khalidi, let's go back to the Pope's trip and look at some of these balancing acts that he is performing. This is a sensitive time in the Middle East. You got President Clinton talking with Hafez Al Assad--

RASHID KHALIDI: On Sunday.

RAY SUAREZ: And some -- a renewal of talks between the Palestinian authority and the Israeli government -- a tough time to be there even if you are saying I'm not a politician. No?

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, it's a tough time to be there. But it is a millennium. It is the jubilee. It is a time that the Pope had to make in his view the spiritual pilgrimage. And the Vatican has interests in Jerusalem, which is one of the key issues that is about to be negotiated between the Palestinians and the Israelis and I think one of the things that the Vatican has been saying in its recent pronouncements on this -- and I think the Pope has been reinforcing it, I agree with Scott -- the Pope has been trying not to make overtly political statements, but in his actions and in the meetings that he has had it has been very clear he has been trying to reinforce the Vatican's position that this is not an issue which concerns only Palestinians and Israelis; it is not an issue that concerns only Muslims and Jews.. It is an issue that concerns the Catholic Church. The Vatican has a position on Jerusalem which is somewhat different from the Israeli position and he hasn't actually explicitly stated that during the trip -- nor do I expect him to do that, but by the symbolism of where he has gone and who he has seen -- by the kinds of statements he has made at different places I think he has tried to underscore the idea that the Vatican and the international community consider that they have a voice or should have a voice in the way in which the issue of Jerusalem is settled. Nobody I think disagrees with the fact that it is the capital for the two peoples, the Palestinians and the Israelis, but it is holy to people of three faiths, the Jews, the Christians and to Muslims.

RAY SUAREZ: Yvonne Haddad, do you et expect to see fallout from the trip in the coming year in that part of the world?

YVONNE HADDAD: I don't know about fallout but it seems to me that there are some people who are asking some, you know, it rubbed people the wrong way in some places and they are asking some very critical questions. How come there was no apology for the Crusades, which were called for about 900 years ago and have never been revoked -- how come there was no apology for the Inquisition in which there was not a single Muslim left in Spain.

SCOTT APPLEBY: Nor a single Jew.

YVONNE HADDAD: Nor a single Jew. So that you know, there are a lot of other things one could apologize for.

SCOTT APPLEBY: Although the document of the International Theological Commission that the Vatican issued, that I referred to earlier does mention specifically the Crusades and the Inquisition.

YVONNE HADDAD: That's right. But the same document also makes a difference between the relationship of the Catholic Church to the Jewish people and the relationship of the Catholic Church to the Muslims. The Muslims are esteemed -- Jewish people are our dear brothers. So for Muslims looking at the document, there is a distinction and this distinction sort of has ramifications on the local Christians in the Middle East because it sort of makes the Muslims and the Christians appear to be in conflict.

RAY SUAREZ: Yvonne Haddad, guests, thank you very much.

JIM LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, Secretary Cohen, taking the census, and a new heart test.

NEWSMAKER

JIM LEHRER: Now, a Newsmaker interview with the Secretary of Defense, William Cohen. He has just returned from a trip to Asia.

Mr. Secretary, welcome.

WILLIAM COHEN: Pleasure to be here.

JIM LEHRER: Among the places you went, Vietnam, why did you go there?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, I had been trying to go for the last couple of years, and the trip had been postponed on several occasions, but it was important because I think that the Vietnamese government as such is reaching out. They have shown an openness to the United States and to other countries. They have been negotiating a bilateral trade agreement with the U.S. Government and, so, for all of those reasons we want to see if we can't integrate, help integrate Vietnam into the world community and they seem quite eager to do that.

JIM LEHRER: This is 25th anniversary of the fall of Vietnam, the end of the Vietnam War.

WILLIAM COHEN: And the fifth anniversary of our normalization with Vietnam.

JIM LEHRER: But you didn't -- the Vietnam War wasn't a haze over your trip in any way?

WILLIAM COHEN: There was no haze at all. There was the event that I really went to really partake in and that was the joint task force that is out there trying to account for our missing in action and to recover any remains that we can find. And I made it very clear to all of the Vietnams leadership that I spoke with that this is central to the United States, that we will continue to insist that they do everything they can to help us account for our missing in action. So I went out to a rice paddy and saw the incredible work and the incredible cooperation that the Vietnamese people are giving to this joint task force. Some 200 Vietnamese people are standing side by sides with Americans, and they're knee deep in mud sifting through an excavation point to look at every possible conceivable speck of dirt, even to find any remnants of a pilot who we believe was shot down over Vietnam.

JIM LEHRER: But you are the first Defense Secretary to go since 1971, and clearly since the end of the war, was this your idea? You run the United States military. And this was the -- you went to a country that essentially won a war against the United States military and it ended 25 years ago. I mean, was there something that you wanted to do or that they wanted you to come? Explain that.

WILLIAM COHEN: I wanted to see if we can't explore ways in which we could have established military-to- military relationships.

JIM LEHRER: Military to military?

WILLIAM COHEN: Yes, exactly I went as Secretary of Defense and would explore ways in which we could perhaps cooperate to find those step-by-step procedures that could build a sense of mutual confidence not to rush into any kind of an embrace but rather to see whether or not - for example -- we could help with their de-mining effort. They're still quite a few mines laced throughout Vietnam, which can pose a threat to innocence people, to farmers trying to farm the territory and so forth. So that was one area. Flood control. They had a disastrous flood last we are year. We think the Army Corps of Engineers could be very helpful in preventing that or helping prevent that in the future. Other types of areas, veterinarian exchanges to look at medical research and medical types of techniques that we think could be helpful to them, to explore on a joint basis the science behind the use of chemicals like Agent Orange -- all of that was something that we think key with be helpful in building this kind of relationship, and then over a period of time to see if that can't be expanded -- all of that within the context of bilateral relations with the Vietnamese government. So it's not just military to military but it has to be in the context of full diplomatic, economic trade, other types of activities with the U.S. Government.

JIM LEHRER: The big issue, of course, in Asia right now is China versus Taiwan. What is your reading of that? Is this all talk, or is this a serious threat of an armed conflict between those two?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, I think that there could be the potential for armed conflict, but both sides appear to have stepped back. While I was there, I also stopped in Hong Kong to visit with Hong Kong leadership as such with the -- Chairman Tung and others to encourage the Chinese to lower their rhetoric, to step become from this abyss that both sides seem to be heading toward with the Taiwanese talking about independence, which we do not support -- with the Chinese government talking about military threats and intimidation which we also do not support and encourage both sides to step back. That appears to be the case for the time being. And what we've encouraged is more dialogue and I think that we're seeing at least some reaching out on the part of the new president in Taiwan to see if he can't establish this kind of a dialogue with the Chinese government. So it has the potential for conflict but that would be a disaster certainly for China and for Taiwan, so we want to encourage both to step back.

JIM LEHRER: You have read some signs that this may not happen, that they really are stepping back?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, there are positive signs coming out of the new president - Chen. He has indicated that he is willing to seek to withdraw the party platform as far as independence, the quest for independence. He has also indicated he is willing to go to Beijing to sit down with Chinese leaders to talk about ways in which they could reconnect themselves in terms of a positive nonmilitary type of atmosphere.

JIM LEHRER: Now, you went to Japan and you also went to Korea on this trip. Do they want to talk about the China, Taiwan thing? Are they worried about that as well?

WILLIAM COHEN: Sure.

JIM LEHRER: What is their concern?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, everyone throughout the region is worried about that. To the extent there were ever a conflict involving China and Taiwan it would have consequences which I think are enough -- are not quite easy to fathom at this point, diplomatic, certainly economic, potentially military. They're all concerned about that. They want to see this situation resolved peacefully because certainly their stability andtheir prosperity is put at risk if there is any kind of a conflict in the region. And so they both were very interested in seeing that each side stepped become and they were quite encouraged by what I think the results were so far.

JIM LEHRER: Did they say things to you, the Mr. Secretary, the United States has got to do more, the United States has got to get in here and keep this from happening. Did they hold us responsible for keeping these two folks apart in some way?

WILLIAM COHEN: They don't hold us responsible. We obviously have a very important relationship with China and we have a commitment to Taiwan as well under the Taiwan Relations Act. So they see us as being the major superpower who has certain responsibilities, but I also encouraged their leadership to be convey the same message to the Chinese government and to the Taiwanese -- same message throughout. Both sides have to step back. The Taiwanese have to drop their statements about claiming independence because we do not support that. The Chinese have to top stalking about taking military action or threatening to take military action.

JIM LEHRER: Is the United States preparing for that eventuality?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, we always have our security preparations to try and discourage and deter combat wherever we are deployed and so we're prepared for virtually contingencies.

JIM LEHRER: That is going to be tricky, isn't it, Mr. Secretary, if something like that happens to the United States?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, it's a very dangerous situation should you have China seeking to impose its will upon Taiwan through the use of military force. That's one of the reasons we tried to discourage it and will continue.

JIM LEHRER: Now, one of the things, of course, about Asia is that we have 100,000 troops still there. Are they still needed?

WILLIAM COHEN: Absolutely. Those 100,000 troops have managed to keep the peace and maintain stability and encourage prosperity throughout the Asia Pacific region. In fact, I tried to point out and have pointed out to the Chinese leadership that they have been a principal beneficiary of American presidents throughout the region because were we to leave, it would create a vacuum that would have to be filled by someone. The filling of that vacuum could be greatly destabilizing and create quite an arms race and potential for conflict. So China has been able to pursue Deng Xiaoping's four modernizations and to do so in a peaceful atmosphere. It's allowed them to gain some prosperity and quite a bit of stability throughout the region so all of Asia Pacific I think is grateful for our contributions to stability. We in turn have benefited from that. This is not something that is simply out of charity. We are principal beneficiaries of a stable, prosperous Asia, and we found out that there was the so-called "Asian Flu" and we caught a cold back here as well.

JIM LEHRER: But is there a specific military mission for the 100,000 Americans?

WILLIAM COHEN: Yes. They are there to deter North Korea from moving militarily against South Korea. We are there to try to encourage four-party talks between the North Koreans and South Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, others. We want to have a deterrent posture and maintain that deterrent posture throughout the region. We have good relations with Singapore and Thailand, all of the so-called ASEAN countries, the Southeast Asian nations - so our presence is very much wanted and they are indeed very grateful for it.

JIM LEHRER: Nobody is asking to you get out there have?

WILLIAM COHEN: No, not at all. Not at all.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Another part of the world, Kosovo, peace isn't working quite as well as the United States and NATO had hoped, is it?

WILLIAM COHEN: Well, it could be better. We've come a long way from last year. We have this one year anniversary that we're also looking at this week. And if you compare it to where we were last year with Milosevic trying to expel - well he did -- 800,000 people, who have since returned to Kosovo, some 550,000 who were internally displaced -- some 300,000 school children now back in school. So we have come a long way from where we were a year ago by waging an air campaign against Milosevic. We still have a lot of work to do. And that is on getting civilian implementation of that peace process, namely we have to have more police, we should not have to rely upon our military forces to carry out police missions. We should get courts and judges and prosecutions. We should have local elections, set up a political process so there can be a return to the form of autonomy they had enjoyed before Milosevic cracked down in 1989, 1990.

JIM LEHRER: But, as a practical matter, Mr. Secretary, is the establishment or the reestablishment, depending on how you want to phrase it, of a real multi-ethnic society really going to be possible? Isn't it true now that every time there are Serbs and Albanians living close together, they have problems, they are killing each other, they're fighting like crazy?

WILLIAM COHEN: It's going to take time. They're going to have to either live side by side or face the possibility of killing each other face to face. We're trying to discourage that. It's going to take some time, but passions are still high. Any time you have a family that has been murdered by the Serbs or vice versa there are going to be long-term lingering hatreds that the result from that. We're trying to cool those passions and over a period of time show that the prospect for prosperity and peace is going to be much greater if we learn to live together and not be constantly digging into the old wounds.

JIM LEHRER: No second thoughts about the NATO operation in Kosovo?

WILLIAM COHEN: I have no seconds thoughts. I think there was no choice. I think NATO could not have sat on the sidelines, sitting on its principles as such, and being indifferent to the kind of ethnic cleansing that was taking place. There was no choice but for NATO to take action.

JIM LEHRER: All right. Mr. Secretary. Thank you very much.

WILLIAM COHEN: Thank you.

FOCUS - COMPLETING THE COUNT

JIM LEHRER: Now Census 2000-- avoiding an undercount. Elizabeth Brackett of WTTW reports from Chicago.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Conception and Jose Torres struggle with their census form in their Chicago kitchen. Like one in six Americans, the Torres' received the long form, and Jose Torres thinks the questions are way too personal.

CONCEPTION TORRES: They want to know how much you get for your retirement.

JOSE TORRES: No way.

CONCEPTION TORRES: Okay. When was your building built?

JOSE TORRES: Why do they want to know that?

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The U.S. Census Bureau is spending about $300 million promoting and advertising the census, trying to convince people like the Torres' to overcome their reluctance and send in their forms.

ANNOUNCER: Fill out your census. It helps determine how federal funds get spent. This is your future. Don't leave it blank.

ANA MARIA SOTO: The census is about power-- political power-- and money for our community. All federal money is distributed based on the census. Okay? Everybody counts. Every single person counts. It doesn't matter what your migratory status is; if you are a child that is a day old or a person who cannot see. Every single person counts.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The census message is also being delivered face to face. Ana Maria Soto has spent the last six months meeting with large and small groups, talking about the importance of the census to the Latino community. Minorities were undercounted at a much higher rate than the general population in the 1990 Census, and Latinos had the highest undercount of any minority group: About 5%, or close to 1.5 million Latinos were not counted ten years ago. Soto, an attorney with MALDEF, the Mexican American Legal Defense Fund, sees the undercount as a civil rights issue.

ANA MARIA SOTO, Mexican American Legal Defense Fund: We feel that if we don't get our fair share in political power, in funding, it becomes a civil rights issue, and that's why this is the fourth time that MALDEF has been a leader in leading the way in census promotion for the Latino community.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Despite the outreach, Soto says fear remains the biggest reason behind the failure to return forms-- fear that the information asked for will not stay within the Census Bureau.

ANA MARIA SOTO: It is illegal for other parts of the government to receive your information. So the INS, which is immigration, cannot receive the information. FBI, CIA, IRS-- not even the President of the United States can get this information.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: A neighborhood community organization spreads the same message as organizers go door- to-door in a Chicago Latino neighborhood.

SPOKESPERSON: Buenos tardes. (Speaking Spanish)

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Community organizer Hector Rico says the toughest task is to try and convince illegal immigrants to send back census forms.

HECTOR RICO, Latino Organization of the Southwest: One of the main fears is that that information is going to be misused for the immigration purpose. Even though there are lots of commercials out there, and a lot of publicity assuring that people... Assuring that the Immigration Department is not going to be using that information for other purpose, there are still some concerns.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Jose Torres was born in Mexico, but became a citizen years ago. His wife was born in the U.S. of Mexican heritage. They do not fear immigration, but despite the strong messages from the Census Bureau, they are not convinced that their answers would be confidential.

JOSE TORRES: I don't think it's true. I don't believe it.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: You don't believe it?

JOSE TORRES: Uh-uh.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Why don't you believe it?

CONCEPTION TORRES: I don't believe it because like I say, is it confidential when you go to the doctor? The nurse that goes in there in the room? Then why does everybody knows what disease you have?

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Like many Latinos, the Torres' were confused about two questions about ethnicity and race on the census form. Hispanics lobbied hard for a separate question asking if a person is of Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino heritage. The Torres' answered yes to the Hispanic question, marking the box for "Mexican, Mexican, American or Chicano." But they couldn't figure out what to mark for the next question, on race. The choices range from white, black, African American or Negro, American Indian, to many Asian choices-- Japanese, Vietnamese-- but no Latino choices. And when you came up here, what did you put?

CONCEPTION TORRES: White.

JOSE TORRES: What?

CONCEPTION TORRES: Or whatever. I can't be a Negro.

JOSE TORRES: Okay, okay.

CONCEPTION TORRES: I mean, look at me. It's just like when I was going out to look for a flat to rent. It said "white only." I looked at my skin and I said, "what color am I?" I knocked, and still, they didn't want me.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Do you consider yourself white?

JOSE TORRES: No.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: What race do you consider yourself?

JOSE TORRES: Well, I'm Latino, but I'm not white.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Latinos are not the only minority group being courted to participate in the census. African Americans also had a high undercount in 1990. The census was tops on the agenda at Jesse Jackson's community forum last Saturday.

JESSE JACKSON, Rainbow/PUSH Coalition: Everybody should count. Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem for the census count.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: The regional census director told the crowd Chicago lost as much as $320 million in revenue because of the city's undercount in the last census.

STANLEY MOORE, Bureau of the Census: So, if you want transportation, housing, health care, schools, the only way you're going to get it is to fill out that census form. If you want political representation at the local level, at the congressional level, you've got to fill out that census form.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Reapportionment of congressional districts is one of the oldest and most important uses of census data, and the fear of losing a congressional seat, perhaps even a minority one, is one of the biggest reasons behind the push for a complete count in states like Illinois. Congressman Danny Davis has represented a west side city and suburban Chicago area district since 1996. He thinks the threat of losing an Illinois congressional seat is a serious one.

REP. DANNY DAVIS, (D) Illinois: There was a time when Illinois, of course, had 22 members of Congress, 24 members of Congress. We're down to 20. And so we can't possibly suggest that it couldn't happen, because we've seen it happen, and we know that there has been movement, the mobility of people. If we count the people, though, I think we're going to be all right. If we don't, we're in trouble.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: To try and stay out of trouble, Illinois and other states have formed complete count committees. Albert Pritchett heads the Cook County Complete Count Committee.

ALBERT PRITCHETT, Cook County Complete Census Committee: These would be volunteer efforts to relate to the Census Board, to try to interpret for people in various communities exactly how important the census report is to people in communities, in terms of revenue, in terms of apportionment, and so forth.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: But despite all the efforts, the Torres' remain unconvinced.

CONCEPTION TORRES: My husband has told me to throw it in the cabinet, which would be the garbage can, because he says they don't have to know what he gets for Social Security. How much he gets pension from General Motors, what are our taxes and all that. So he says "don't fill it out."

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: Is that what you think?

JOSE TORRES: That's what I think. It's too many questions.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: What can you tell them about why they should fill out this form?

ANA MARIA SOTO: I think if they understand what is at stake, what it means to have to live with erroneous numbers for ten years, that the funding is affected, that our political representation is affected, that the information is confidential, that it's the law-- these are things that might change people's minds.

ELIZABETH BRACKETT: And, says Soto, if the Torres' don't send the form back, sometime between now and July, a census-taker will knock on their door, and once again try and convince them of the importance of sharing their personal information with the U.S. Census Bureau.

FOCUS - DETECTING RISKS

JIM LEHRER: Finally tonight, a new heart test, and to Margaret Warner.

MARGARET WARNER: There's a startling new finding in today's "New England Journal of Medicine." Researchers at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston found that a simple, inexpensive blood test proved far more accurate in predicting future heart attack risk than the test now commonly relied on, namely cholesterol screening. Joining us to explain the findings is the man who led the research team, Dr. Paul Ridker. He's director of the Center for Cardiovascular Disease Prevention at Brigham and Women's Hospital, and associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School.

Dr. Ridker, welcome, thanks for being with us.

DR. PAUL RIDKER, Brigham and Women's Hospital: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

MARGARET WARNER: Now, what does this blood test measure and how does it relate to a person's risk for heart attack?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, the key issue for us is that while cholesterol is a very important risk factor for heart attack and for stroke, reality is that half of all those events which will occur, occur among individuals who actually have normal levels of cholesterol. What we attempted to, therefore, do was try to find out whether we could do a better job predicting heart attacks, and therefore, hopefully do a better job actually preventing these events. The test that we described is a marker of a very different process than cholesterol. It's a marker of inflammation or the process by which our bodies responds to a variety of different types of injuries. It turns out you can measure that inflammatory response and those of us that have a greater response turn out to be at much higher risk of going on to have either a heart attack or a stroke.

MARGARET WARNER: So, even if you have very low cholesterol if you have a high-level of this protein, you are definitely at risk?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, what it turns out is that the cholesterol level seems to tell us about how much of the hardening of the arteries or the atherosclerosis will build up inside those vessels, but the key issue is that some individuals go beyond just having that and the plaque becomes vulnerable, or it actually ruptures.

MARGARET WARNER: So it breaks away?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: That's exactly right. The rupturing of that plaque is what determines who actually has the event. What the protein is is a very simple protein, something called C-reactive protein that your liver makes in response to a variety of this inflammatory process. But you can measure this with a very high sensitivity test, something call H. S. or high sensitivity C-reactive protein. And even among individuals with low levels of cholesterol those with high levels of this test clearly were at high risk.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Let's flip it around. What if you have high cholesterol and you work on that all the time. But you go take this test and you don't have much of this protein. Then can you breathe easy, have butter?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: No, probably not. I think that the cholesterol levels remain very important. The key issue is that risk is a global marker, and individuals who have a cholesterol problem, and have this inflammatory problem are at very high risk. But those individuals who just have the cholesterol or just have the inflammation, they too are at substantial risk and need to be very careful about dietand exercise and stopping smoking and those type of things.

MARGARET WARNER: A couple of other questions just about how wide this study is, this was on post menopausal women. Does it also apply to premenopausal women or men - is there any reason to think it wouldn't?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, actually the current study derives from a federally funded study called the Women's Health Study. We tracked some 25,000 women who were healthy at base line in the future to see if we could predict their future heart attacks and strokes. But very similar data presented in middle aged men. Several studies have shown this to be a very real and predictable phenomena. And each of these studies has told us that measuring this novel parameter - this blood test -- does do a better job of predicting heart attack risk and clearly adds to our ability to predict risks over and above the lipid level.

MARGARET WARNER: Does it also apply to stroke, predicting stroke risk?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, yes, it does, and that's a very important insight. Stroke is a devastating disease that really our job must be to prevent it from happening. But the problem is that cholesterol screening actually does not predict stroke at all. Yet again this inflammatory process which seems to lead to a plaque rupturing in that blood vessels supplying, in this case blood to the brain, also can be predicted by this high sensitivity test for c-reactive protein.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Now, if you are a healthy, otherwise healthy person and you, your doctor finds you have this protein, then what treatment is suggested?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, I'm a cardiologist who believes that I've done my job well if my patients never really need my services and can I prevent that first heart attack or that first stroke from occurring. So the recommendation would be initially to encourage a patient to stop smoking, to diet, to exercise and to be compliant with their medications. But we've also learned that this process of inflammation and the destabilization of that plaque can actually be improved by some very simple types of medications which are well known to reduce the risk of heart attack.

MARGARET WARNER: Like?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: The first of these is aspirin. A drug which we know drops the risk of a heart attack turns out to actually modulate or attenuate this inflammatory response. The second class of drugs are the statin drugs that seem to lower the LDL cholesterol but also they have a number of other next. And in one of the very interesting twists to this whole story is that at least one of these agents, pravostatin, seems to reduce the level of this actual marker, the high sensitivity C- reactive protein.

MARGARET WARNER: So, in other words, even though we thought of it as working on lipid levels it also has an anti-inflammatory effect?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, that seems to be the case. And the biology of what causes these heart attacks and strokes in the first place tells us that inflammation is very important. So it's very exciting to discover that some of these drugs that are very effective at reducing risk turn out to actually impact upon that process.

MARGARET WARNER: And then are there other drugs that strictly treat inflammatory, inflammation like, I don't know, arthritis drugs or something?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well it is an interesting question because fundamentally what we're learning as physicians and I think is important for the patients is that atherosclerosis or the process of hardening of the arteries is very much an inflammatory disease just like rheumatoid arthritis is an inflammatory disease. And the key insight I think from these types of studies and from the basic biology is that we will be seeing many novel drugs that really do target this inflammatory response that traditionally have been used to treat arthritis. These agents may now go into clinical trials to see if we have a very new way of actually treating and hopefully preventing heart attacks from occurring at all.

MARGARET WARNER: So you are talking about really a revolution in our concept of what heart disease is?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Well, that's right. This revolution has been going on now for about ten or fifteen years in the basic science laboratories, but I think what our data do is really put this right in the lap of everyday physicians. We can measure this process and measuring that process can give us a handle on who is truly at high risk and also give us a handle on how to better understand why some individuals who after being screened for cholesterol seem to be at low risk, nonetheless go on to have a heart attack.

MARGARET WARNER: I need to ask one quick question. Can you get this test now and what do you ask for?

DR. PAUL RIDKER: Yes, the test has been released by the Food and Drug Administration about six to eight weeks ago. It is available through standard outpatient testing if the physician asks for a high sensitivity C R P. And it is about the same price as a cholesterol test, $15, $20, in this range.

MARGARET WARNER: All right. Dr. Ridker, thanks very much.

DR. PAUL RIDKER: It's a pleasure.

RECAP

JIM LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Thursday: On the NewsHour, Defense Secretary Cohen said China and Taiwan have stepped back from possible armed conflict. He said Taiwan's president-elect has signaled he won't press for independence. And Pope John Paul II said the Roman Catholic Church is deeply saddened by persecution of Jews throughout history; he spoke in Jerusalem. We'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening with Shields and Gigot, among others. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.