The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Tuesday, Michael Dukakis chose Texas Senator Lloyd Bentsen as his running mate, the U.S. expelled the Ambassador and seven other Nicaraguan diplomats, and Richard Thornburgh was selected to replace Edwin Meese as Attorney General. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: After the News Summary, we devote the rest of the NewsHour to reaction to the Dukakis/Bentsen announcement. We start with two Texans, former Governor John Connally and former Democratic Party Chairman John White, then an architect of Republican Southern strategies, Harry Dent, and Democratic Pollster Harrison Hickman, finally our political analysts David Gergen and Mark Shields will be joined by Amsterdam News Editor Wilbert Tatum. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: Michael Dukakis selected his running mate today. He's Senator Lloyd Bentsen of Texas. The two men and their wives appeared before a campaign crowd at Thaniel Hall in Boston this afternoon for the announcement. Both drew the obvious parallels between their Texas/Massachusetts collaboration and that of John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson in 1960.

GOV. MICHAEL DUKAKIS [Democratic Presidential Candidate]: The Republicans in 1960 did what they're about to do in 1988; they nominated an incumbent Republican Vice President. Jack Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson beat that incumbent Republican Vice President in 1960, and Mike Dukakis and Lloyd Bentsen are going to beat him in 1988.

SEN. LLOYD BENTSEN [Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate]: The Massachusetts and the Texas axis was good for the country and good for the Democratic Party in 1960, and it's going to be a real winner in November of '88.

MR. LEHRER: Jesse Jackson held a news conference in Washington this afternoon to react to the Bentsen choice. He had no specific comments about Bentsen, but he said Governor Dukakis had not consulted him about the decision. Reporters asked if Jackson was angry about not being chosen himself.

JESSE JACKSON [Democratic Presidential Candidate]: No. I'm too controlled. I'm too clear. I'm too mature to be angry. I am focused on what we must do to keep hope alive. Anger reflects a crisis in emotions and, therefore, irrational behavior. I simply have been in the struggle long enough to be able to keep my eyes on the prize and keep doing what I've done throughout this campaign, maintain a moral tone, lift the campaign, keep our focus on where it ought to be.

MR. LEHRER: Lloyd Bentsen's first Senate victory in Texas came 18 years ago over George Bush, now the Vice President, and certain Republican Presidential nominee. Bush made no public comment on the Bentsen choice until late today on the way to the baseball all star game in Cincinnati. "That's interesting. That's what I think about it," he said. His main campaign event was a speech before the Washington Convention of the NAACP. He told delegates a Bush Administration would have a positive civil rights agenda. He also praised Jesse Jackson's race for the Presidency. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: President Reagan retaliated against Nicaragua's expulsion of U.S. diplomats by issuing a similar order to Nicaraguan Embassy staff. Yesterday President Daniel Ortega gave U.S. Ambassador Richard Milton and seven diplomats 72 hours to leave the country. He accused them of inciting unrest in Nicaragua. During a White House photo session today with the visiting Prime Minister of Kuwait, President Reagan told reporters of the U.S. response.

PRESIDENT REAGAN: I have told the State Department to send their Ambassador and seven Comrades back to Managua. In other words, we're going to return the favor, we're going to do to him what he did to us.

MR. MacNeil: President Reagan named former Pennsylvania Governor Richard Thornburgh to succeed Edwin Meese as Attorney General. Meese announced last week that he will resign on August 1st. The President described Thornburgh, a former prosecutor, as a tough- minded crime buster and urged the Senate to move quickly to confirm him. Asked about Meese's legal problems, Thornburgh said, "I think it's important to look forward, rather than back."

MR. LEHRER: The drought has taken a toll on the nation's corn and wheat crops. The official crop reports in the Agriculture Department today on corn said 5.2 billion bushels will be harvested this year compared to 7.06 last year. On wheat, the drop is expected to be from 2.1 billion bushels in '87 to 1.84 billion. Soybeans are also projected to be down from 1.9 billion bushels to 1.65 billion.

MR. MacNeil: Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci asked Congress today not to make wholesale changes in procurement laws because of the current defense scandal. Carlucci testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee about the alleged bribery of Pentagon officials by defense contractors.

FRANK CARLUCCI [Secretary of Defense]: Any process that deals with $165 billion in procurement has to be a dynamic process and when we detect flaws in that process, we have to be prepared to change them. I'm not saying the process is perfect at this point. Indeed, I think there are some fundamental aspects of the process that need to be looked at. On the other hand, what I am saying is don't take all the previous reforms and throw them out, let's build on them, and let's build in a constructive way.

MR. MacNeil: Carlucci said he had lifted a temporary suspension of contracts for nine military programs because a review had found that none were tainted. He said if further information came to light, they would be looked at again. In the Persian Gulf, two U.S. helicopters exchanged fire with two small boats believed to be Iranian. The helicopters were not hit. The incident occurred near Farsi Island in the Northern part of the Gulf. The helicopters responded to a distress call from a Panamanian tanker which had been attacked and set on fire.

MR. LEHRER: Eleven people are now believed dead in yesterday's terrorist attack aboard a Greek cruise ship. An amateur photographer took these pictures of passengers abandoning the burning vessel after three gunmen raked it with bullets and exploded hand grenades on board. Greek officials said today the attack may have been carried out by Pro-Iranian Arabs who intended to hijack the ship. Ninety-eight persons were injured in the attack. Twenty-eight of them are still hospitalized. Photographs of three suspects and a fourth person, a Moroccan woman, have been circulated to Greek border officials.

MR. MacNeil: In South Africa, the Justice ministers suspended the executions of six blacks known as the Sharpeville Six to let them pursue further legal remedies. The death sentences against the five men and a woman for their part in killing a black township official caused a storm of international protest. That's our summary of the news. Now it's on to reaction around the nation from the nation to Senator Lloyd Bentsen as the Dukakis running mate. FOCUS - '88 WINNING TEAM? - DUKAKIS/BENTSEN TICKET

MR. MacNeil: Something that usually makes big news at conventions made the news today, six days early. Michael Dukakis announced his choice for running mate, Texas Senator Lloyd Bentsen. The rest of our program tonight is devoted to that starting with at an extended look at the Dukakis/Bentsen statements this afternoon in Thaniel Hall in Boston.

GOV. MICHAEL DUKAKIS [Democratic Presidential Candidate]: Many of you have heard me say so many times that the parallels between 1960 and 1988 are very close indeed. Then we had had eight rather amiable but sleepy years of Republicans in the White House, we had a country that was ready for change, a son of Massachusetts born in our home town, just a mile from where Kitty and I live, winning that nomination, reaching out to the State of Texas, and asking a great Senator from the State of Texas to join him on the Democratic ticket. Well, the Republicans in 1960 did what they're about to do in 1988, they nominated an incumbent Republican Vice President. Jack Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson beat that incumbent Republican Vice President in 1960, and Mike Dukakis and Lloyd Bentsen are going to beat him 1988. Selecting a running mate is probably the first Presidential act, if I can use those words, that I will do, and I don't have to tell you how seriously I took this responsibility. Lloyd Bentsen brings to this ticket and will bring to this nation years of experience, a deep commitment to civil rights and equality of opportunity that goes way back to the 1940's, to the 1940's, and if there is one commitment that defines him, it is the commitment that we share together, and that is, good jobs and economic opportunity for every single citizen in this country no matter who they are or where they come from or what the color of their skin.May I present to you with respect, with affection, and with great pride, the next Vice President of the United States, Lloyd Bentsen.

SEN. LLOYD BENTSEN [Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate]: Joining this campaign as the Vice Presidential candidate is not just an honor, but I think it's a great opportunity to make a difference for America. The Massachusetts and the Texas axis was good for the country and good for the Democratic Party in 1960, and it's going to be a real winner in November of '88. Michael Dukakis is a man who didn't Massachusetts around with taxes and spending, but he turned it around with some virtues that we understand through the Southwest and the South, the virtues of hard work, the entrepreneurial spirit, integrity. And he brought effective management of the taxpayer's dollar to a new high, and I'm impressed with that kind of a record, and so is the country. The fact that he's taken a Senator from Texas, a Senator from the South, shows that we're going to fight for every state in the union, and we're going all out to win.

MR. MacNeil: Now we have an extensive roster of reaction and analysis, first what some of Sen. Bentsen's colleagues had to say on Capitol Hill.

SEN. ROBERT DOLE [Minority Leader]: He couldn't have picked a better man. I know Lloyd Bentsen, worked with him on the Finance Committee in the Senate. He's a quality person.

SEN. JOHN GLENN [D] Ohio: Lloyd is certainly an excellent choice, he's a very senior Senator, a lot of experience here on the Hill, long political experience here and in other parts of the country also, and I know he'll be a great campaigner, a fine Vice President, and a very valued adviser to President Dukakis.

SEN. PAUL SIMON [D] Illinois: It is a great choice not only politically, I think it will help immediately in Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana. I think gradually it will help all over the nation.

SEN. BOB GRAHAM [D] Florida: This is going to be a national campaign that no region of the country is going to be written off, that the Democratic Party is going to compete everywhere. They say that Dallas is the Westernmost city of the South and Ft. Worth is the Easternmost city of the West, so by picking a Texan, you get both the South and the West, and those are two regions that we need to compete for.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY [D] Alabama: The South is doable, but it's going to take a lot of work. The Bentsen addition to the ticket I think is very positive, and if Bentsen will campaign in the South and help put the ticket together, help crystallize the ticket, I think it's very positive.

SEN. PHIL GRAMM [R] Texas: I think Dukakis looked at electoral college politics and decided that he could not win unless he could carry Texas. He decided to roll the dice. Knowing Texas as I do, knowing Texans as I do, I am convinced that having Lloyd Bentsen will not carry Texas for Dukakis.

MR. MacNeil: Then the reaction of the man who campaigned up to the last to convert his second place showing in the primaries to second place on the ticket, the Rev. Jesse Jackson. Jackson was reported to be privately angry, but he told a press conference he was too controlled to be angry. Reporters asked what Jackson thought about how Dukakis handled the announcement.

JESSE JACKSON [Democratic Presidential Candidate]: The approach he used today of course was a matter of his own campaign making a strategic move to solidify his organization, and so that is his right to do. My obligation is not to react to his strategy, but to affirm my own. It is to keep hope alive, to keep focusin our campaign, to keep our delegates and supporters disciplined, detailed, and full of hope, to put forth the very best expression we can of support on Wednesday, July 20th, at nomination time.

REPORTER: Does this not though represent a sense to you, sir, that consideration of you was really a perfunctory matter and was not, indeed, serious, especially as to the notification of you today?

REV. JACKSON: I do not choose to challenge the integrity of the Governor and his organization as a matter of judgment. That was also a strategic judgment that they made. When I returned from Cincinnati today, I was met by people from the media who said to me that Sen. Bentsen was in the airport on his way to Boston and had been the person selected by the Governor to be on his ticket if he prevails next Wednesday night in Atlanta. After an hour or so later, I did hear from Gov. Dukakis, who indicated to me or asked me had I heard the news, and I said, yes, and he said that he was going to have an announcement at 2 o'clock today.

REPORTER: They're waiting for a signal from you as to how to respond to the Dukakis/Bentsen ticket. Will you encourage them to enthusiastically support that ticket?

REV. JACKSON: We can only address that after the nomination is over on Wednesday night.

REPORTER: Will you abide by whatever the outcome of those rules and the process determines at the convention?

REV. JACKSON: I no doubt will support the ticket that the convention elects next week, but that will be the appropriate time. Timing is a big factor in this process. I would hope that between now and then that some of the deliberations that are taking place relative to minority planks, relative to the DNC, relative to convention participation, relative to our strategies to win after the nomination will take place. But each of these matters must take place in their appropriate time.

REPORTER: Rev. Jackson, were you not told that you would be consulted and your advice sought about the selection before it was made and did that, in fact, occur, sir, and if not, what is your reaction?

REV. JACKSON: It did not occur, but my attitude is moderated by maturity and understanding of the process. There's a lot of tension in campaigns. Sometime people move in ways that they think are to their advantage, which is their right to do. But I need not react to another campaign's strategies. I must remain focused and keep my supporters focused on what Atlanta means to us.

REPORTER: Rev. Jackson, do you expect that you will urge your followers to support the Vice Presidential nominee of the winner on Wednesday, assuming it's going to be Sen. Bentsen?

REV. JACKSON: I feel no need, no urgency, to operate in the hypothetical, to take this process beyond a one day at a time approach. Our interests will be served well on how we can leave that convention excited, because we have expanded and come together. My experience is that if we have an exciting campaign in the summer and these grapes of hope remain buoyant and excited, the mere juice will be enough to stimulate us to victory in November. But if somehow some misguided strategists crush grapes of hope in Atlanta into raisins of despair, they will not be able to bounce back in the fall.

MR. LEHRER: The first Lloyd Bentsen question we explore tonight is both the simplest and the most complicated. Who is he? Where does he come from, other than Texas? Last weekend, he was in Texarkana with the Governor of Massachusetts.

SEN. LLOYD BENTSEN: He talks our language and we're 100 percent behind him here in Texarkana.

REPORTER: Governor, given Sen. Bentsen's great year in the Senate, as you pointed out, can you afford to lose him in the Senate?

GOV. MICHAEL DUKAKIS [Democratic Presidential Candidate]: I don't know. He could provide good service in lots of places. I cannot -- I want to reiterate what I said -- I don't remember a year when a United States Senator has done as much as this man has done.

MR. LEHRER: Their friendliness together might have been a hint of what was coming today. Dukakis's choice is a man of Texas, but also very much of Washington. Bentsen was first elected to Congress in 1948 at the age of 27. After three terms, he returned to Texas to start an insurance company. He was successful and it made him a wealthy man. He stayed out of politics until 1970, when he suddenly decided to run for the U.S. Senate. He defeated an up and coming Republican Congressman named George Bush in the general election.

SEN. BENTSEN [Senate Finance Committee]: Since I rarely pick up the check, I can be totally objective and I'm going to vote for it.

MR. LEHRER: Today he is Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, making him one of the most powerful Democrats in Washington. He has been a major player on issues such as pension reform and tax legislation.

SEN. BENTSEN: One of the most important things that piece of legislation does is to try to restore American leadership in trade.

MR. LEHRER: It was the 1987 trade bill that Bentsen authored which gained him the most attention and acclaim. The bill had broad bipartisan support and passed both Houses overwhelmingly, only to be halted by a Presidential veto.

SEN. BENTSEN [May 24, 1988]: It's a bill that should have gone into law this year. I'm hopeful it still will but the odds are not good.

MR. LEHRER: Last year, Bentsen created a flap with an unusual campaign tactic eventually dubbed "Eggs MacBentsen". For a yearly fee of $10,000, lobbyists were invited to an exclusive once a month breakfast with Bentsen. The notoriety brought sharp criticism and Bentsen quickly ended the breakfasts and returned the contributions. Bentsen's selection today puts two prominent Texans on each party's slate, and Bentsen's old rival, George Bush, is wary but confident.

VICE PRESIDENT BUSH [July 6, 1988]: I think Lloyd Bentsen is well respected in Texas, and I think I would still carry Texas.

MR. LEHRER: Now to two Texans who also know Lloyd Bentsen well. John Connally served as a Democratic Governor of Texas, then became a Republican serving as Treasury Secretary, and later ran for the Republican Presidential nomination himself. He joins us tonight from Houston. John White was the Texas Agriculture Commissioner, then held the No. 2 job in the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and went on to be the Chairman of the National Democratic Party, he supported Jesse Jackson for the 1988 Democratic nomination. Mr. White, what kind of man has Dukakis has chosen today?

JOHN C. WHITE [Former Chairman, DNC]: He's chosen a very intelligent, a disciplined, a tough, smart, competitive guy, a friend of mine, a man that I admire a lot, a fellow that loves to in a tennis game beat guys 20 years younger than he is, a guy that loves to out shoot you on a hunt. I think they made a daring, exciting, wonderful choice.

MR. LEHRER: Daring in what way?

MR. WHITE: Well, daring in the fact that what's really happened here when you look at it is Dukakis has chosen to go into Bush's backyard and pick a powerful political figure to take away the crown jewel of the Republican strategy. This, if successful, destroys the strategy of the Republican Party for their campaign in '88, or at least it nails Bush's feet to the floor where he's got to fight for his life in his home state.

MR. LEHRER: John Connally, how do you view this choice? First of all, tell us what your impression of Lloyd Bentsen is. How would you characterize it?

JOHN CONNALLY [Former Texas Governor]: Well, I think John White has properly characterized him. I think Lloyd is a very disciplined, very smart, very dedicated individual who's always been concerned and interested in politics. He showed that early in his life when he ran for county judge of his home county. He came out of a Hispanic area of Texas. He speaks Spanish fluently, no question of what he's respected, highly respected, in the State of Texas, as a moderate and as a conservative. I disagree with John to the extent that it was a daring move. I think if Dukakis is going to win, he has to carry Texas, and the best chance he has to carry Texas was to name Lloyd Bentsen as his running mate. And I've been predicting that that's precisely what he would do. No one agreed with me, but today he did it, and he did exactly what I was afraid he'd do. And frankly this makes it more difficult for us to carry the state against him.

MR. LEHRER: You then agree with those who say that from a Bush point of view, this is a terrible choice?

MR. CONNALLY: Yes. I don't think it's a good choice from a Bush point of view. I think the Republicans now have their hands full in carrying Texas, no doubt about it. I think our problems are magnified.

MR. LEHRER: John White, what about Lloyd Bentsen's civil rights record? This is of great concern obviously to Jesse Jackson and many of supporters. How would you characterize that?

MR. WHITE: Excellent, excellent. He voted against the poll tax back when it was the popular thing to be for in Texas. That was back when he was in Congress, as you mentioned, in the late 40's and early 50's. His civil rights voting record is probably equal to any Senator in the United States Senate. I think he's a good choice on that standpoint.

MR. LEHRER: Based on his record, and you go into this as a supporter of Jesse Jackson, do you believe that Jackson and his supporters have on the record, on Lloyd Bentsen's record, have a legitimate complaint about him going on the ticket with Dukakis?

MR. WHITE: No. I think Rev. Jackson may have a complaint about procedures, but I don't think that there could be a complaint on the quality of the person involved. And I talked to Jackson today and he did not express any complaint at all to me in that light. So you know, the campaign has some work to do in unifying the two campaigns. But I don't think there's any quarrel with Lloyd Bentsen per se from Rev. Jackson.

MR. LEHRER: John Connally, you characterize Lloyd Bentsen as a moderate to conservative. On what do you base that? Why do you use those terms to describe him?

MR. CONNALLY: Oh, I think I know him. I know him very well. I've watched him now since 1946, the time he served in the Congress of the United States, when he was out of office. I knew him intimately here in Houston when he was engaged in the insurance business. As you well know, I did everything I could to get him in the Senate race in 1970. I worked with him. Daley and I campaigned with Lloyd and B.A. all over this state. We tried to deliver my organization to him during that campaign in 1970, and you know, he is a moderate, he is a conservative. And to the extent that we're able to successfully brand Dukakis as a liberal, Lloyd's going to temper that considerably. And that's going to help the ticket.

MR. LEHRER: What are you going to do if you get any calls -- assuming you haven't gotten any today -- but let's assume you get some calls from some people in the Bush campaign and say, hey, Governor, help us out, where is Bentsen vulnerable, where can we go after him, what would you say to them?

MR. CONNALLY: I don't think you run against Bentsen in Texas. I think you run against Dukakis in Texas.

MR. LEHRER: You just leave Bentsen alone?

MR. CONNALLY: Yes, sure I'd leave him alone. Why go after him? I think the Presidential candidates are going to set the tone, they're going to dictate the platform. You run against Dukakis, his record as Governor of Massachusetts, his philosophy, his liberalism, you run against him. You leave Bentsen alone.

MR. LEHRER: Would you, if you were advising the Republicans, would you do the same thing, John White?

MR. WHITE: Well, I think they probably ought to listen to Gov. Connally if for no other reason I noticed -- I was down in South Texas this last weekend and his place gets rain. Mine doesn't get any, so I think Connally's got something going that the rest of us haven't gotten.

MR. LEHRER: How serious -- you know, Lloyd Bentsen is going to be subject to the most severe scrutiny he's ever had in his political career as a result of going on this ticket today. How serious a problem do you think is that $10,000 breakfast thing going to be, Mr. White?

MR. WHITE: Well, I think everybody in Washington has some sort of a group in which they raise money from. Everybody I know has some sort of a breakfast group or a policy group or an advisory group. Lloyd Bentsen decided he would try that and he didn't like the smell of it, didn't like the looks of it, and got rid of it. I don't see how you can criticize him for that.

MR. LEHRER: You don't think he's going to hear about that a lot?

MR. WHITE: Well, he may hear about that a lot, but I don't think it's going to stick. If that's all they got, they'd better think up something else.

MR. LEHRER: Is that all they have, John Connally?

MR. CONNALLY: I don't know of anything else. Lloyd is a fellow who frankly came from a family of wealth. He's always been very careful about his political activities. He has integrity, he has character, as well as ability. I thought the $10,000 breakfast was a mistake; I thought it was a foolish thing for him to do. He didn't need to do that. He recognized it was a mistake, withdrew from it, and yes, he'll hear about it.

MR. LEHRER: Yes. Is he vulnerable in any other area, John Connally?

MR. CONNALLY: I don't really know. I don't know where he is going to be vulnerable and I wouldn't spend a lot of time probing for it, if I were giving advice to George Bush, because, again, as I said a moment ago, I'd leave him alone in Texas. I'd run against Dukakis. No one in their right mind thinks that the Vice President is going to dictate how the White House is run or how the cabinet is chosen or what the policies are going to be. They think that the Vice President, if Bentsen is the Vice President, is going to be on the sidelines, just as George Bush has been, waiting for the President to give him an assignment. So why spend all your time running against Bentsen, when you've got a wonderful candidate like Dukakis to campaign against?

MR. LEHRER: Sen. Gramm just said today -- in fact, we just ran a piece of tape -- that Dukakis clearly decided on a Texas strategy, that he couldn't win without Texas, and the best way was just to be up front and honest about it and get Bentsenon the ticket. Does that make sense to you, John White?

MR. WHITE: I agree with Sen. Gramm, except on one point. He talks about going ahead and Texans voting for George Bush anyway. I've been with Sen. Gramm today and I refer this point, we'll use Reagan's case, were you better four years ago than you are today back in 1980 -- you ask any Texas are you better off in 1988 than you were 1980, and I'd guess it would be 95 to 5 that they're worse off. Every economic sector of Texas is in trouble; energy of course; agriculture of course; real estate of course; banking and financing are all seriously depressed situations. I think Texas is going to vote for a change.

MR. LEHRER: John Connally, what do you think?

MR. CONNALLY: I'm not sure that's right. I think everything John White said is absolutely correct. We have an economic disaster here in Texas, no doubt about it. And a lot of people are hurt. If they blame George Bush for it, then he's going to have a very tough time. I don't see how they can. I don't know why they should blame him for those policies or for this condition that exists in Texas today. Nevertheless, it's going to be a close race. I don't think we as Republicans can take it for granted. You have to remember that the Democrats this year in Texas have a lot of very articulate, very aggressive campaigners. You've got Ann Richards who's going to be the keynote speaker for the convention, you've got most of the office holders in Texas are Democrats, and it's going to be a tough race with Lloyd Bentsen on that ticket and no doubt about it, and we should be very practical about it and recognize that.

MR. LEHRER: Let me ask you a self-serving question, a question that I was asked today by a lot of people. Why is it that non- Texas politicians continue to go to Texans all the time for these jobs? John White.

JOHN WHITE: Maybe it's because we need them.

MR. LEHRER: What do you mean?

MR. WHITE: Well, Gov. Connally and I grew up a lot alike. I had a lot of incentive to get out of the cotton patch in Texas. We talk about different incentives now. Anything I could do sitting down seemed easy to me, and politics was something you could do a lot sitting down, so I think maybe that's one of the reasons that we pursue these careers.

MR. LEHRER: What's your reading of this?

MR. CONNALLY: Let me tell you, Texas, this sounds like a self- serving statement, but we've served this nation well. Jack Garner served this nation well as Vice President of the United States, Tom Connally did in the Senate, so did Morris Shepherd, so did Price Daniel in the United States Senate. Sam Rayburn was probably the greatest Speaker in the history of this country, Lyndon Johnson was the greatest Majority Leader in the history of this country, and an outstanding President of the United States. The Texas politicians who have stayed there and who have served well, Ralph Yarborough served the nation well in his own view. I disagree with many of his policies --

MR. LEHRER: I think he'll be surprised to hear him say that, wouldn't you, John White?

MR. WHITE: I'm pleased to hear it.

MR. LEHRER: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

MR. CONNALLY: You know, John White served as Chairman of the Democratic Party, so did Bob Strauss serve his Democratic Party, all of the Texans who have gone to Washington who have served this nation have served it well, with integrity, with ability, with intelligence, with moderation, and even though I think there's some jealousy about Texas very frankly, and I think a great deal of the country today is just reveling in the fact that we're in an economic depression down here, but that doesn't alter the fact that Texas politicians have served the nation well.

MR. LEHRER: I think I'm going to get accused of throwing you all a lob, and I think I'll leave it there. John Connally in Houston, thank you. John White here, thank you.

MR. MacNeil: Now we analyze the political problems Dukakis faced, strategical and tactical, in making the Bentsen selection. Judy Woodruff has more. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: For two different perspectives, we turn to Harry Dent, who was a political adviser to Richard Nixon, and is widely credited with being the architect of the so called Southern strategy that helped Nixon capture the White House. He joins us from the studios of South Carolina Educational Television in Columbia, and Harrison Hickman, a Democratic pollster with a number of Southern politicians as his clients, and he's a native of North Carolina.

MS. WOODRUFF: Harry Dent, should George Bush be losing sleep tonight, or should he be resting more easily because of this selection of Bentsen?

HARRY DENT [Republican Consultant]: I don't think he should really lose too much sleep, because what I see here is that Gov. Dukakis has opted for a Southern strategy over a Jesse strategy, and that has ramifications both ways. I'm not sure that Sen. Bentsen can really crack into the heart of the Southland and the stranglehold that the Republicans have had on the electoral votes in the electoral college.

MS. WOODRUFF: Why not?

MR. DENT: Because he is from Texas, and that is Southwest and not in the real heart of Dixie. For another thing, he has to run against the man who is at the top of the ticket on the other side in the state where he can do the most good for Gov. Dukakis, and then secondly, the reaction of Jesse Jackson and his friends will have a big impact down here because not only is the South voting many many more people Republican Presidentially, but many more black people are voting in the South today, and I have noticed in the news media here in South Carolina that black leaders have been saying right up front that if Jesse Jackson is overlooked or not handled correctly with regard to the Vice Presidential nomination, they're either going to take a walk or they're going to be lukewarm and timid in their support. And so a good Southern strategy would in my judgment -- as long as he was going to go for Southern strategy -- he should have gone and convinced Sen. Sam Nunn. Now that would have given George Bush some sleepless nights.

MS. WOODRUFF: Harrison Hickman, do you see it the same way?

HARRISON HICKMAN [Democratic Pollster]: Well, somewhat differently. I think Texas is clearly the diamond in the Southern crown. If you're going to break Bush's strategy in the South at all, where you want to do it is in his own home state. And I think that's one of the keys there. If nothing else, you force Bush to spend a lot more money, a lot more resources in Texas than he probably counted on. In fact, you probably make Ronald Reagan campaign a lot more in Texas than he had counted on. You also, by doing that, it gives you an opportunity to run other places in the South. And I think maybe the most important two other factors, No. 1, by picking Lloyd Bentsen, you take a lot of glue off the liberal label that they've been trying to stick to Mike Dukakis. That is really the Republican strategy in the South is to turn Dukakis into a liberal.

MS. WOODRUFF: How do you do that though? You don't change Dukakis by the person he selected. So how, as you put it, do you take the glue off?

MR. HICKMAN: I think a lot of what people learn about Mike Dukakis they're going to learn from today forward. I mean, they don't really know very much about him. So it's a very important symbol. He's saying a lot about himself, about where he sees the Democratic Party going, and it's clearly not fulfilling the liberal stereotype that the Republicans would like to pin on him.

MS. WOODRUFF: Does that work, Harry Dent?

MR. DENT: Well, I think that you really do have to look at the Presidential candidate, himself, and I'm not sure that there can be that much balance. Now it will bring some sense of balance, but a lot has changed since 1960, what Gov. Dukakis was talking about today, and things are just not the same with regard to what's happening in the electoral college. From 1960 to 1980, that's 28 years of much change. But I do think the people are going to substantially vote for Gov. Dukakis or for George Bush.

MS. WOODRUFF: Harrison Hickman, what about Harry Dent's other point about Jesse Jackson's maybe lack luster support for this ticket, if that's what happens, how much does that matter?

MR. HICKMAN: Well, I think it hurts, at least in the short-term, and I think in the long-term what Jackson's supporters are going to see is that there are important differences between Dukakis and Bush that are worth voting on. I mean, part of one of the great things that Jesse Jackson has done, whether you're a Democrat or Republican, is enfranchise people, give them vote, get them to register to vote, and I don't think that he has encouraged people to register in order to sit at home and not vote. So I think if nothing else, the civic obligation if getting people out to vote is going to be helpful and I think the differences will be there for people to see.

MS. WOODRUFF: What is your hunch? What do you think Jackson will do? Can we tell based on what he said today?

MR. HICKMAN: I think Jackson had a normal human reaction today. He didn't get picked. And I think he also has, like anybody else, a decompression period coming out of this campaign. I mean, it's time to go on to another show, and he's not going to be quite as much a part of it as he's been the first couple of acts of this show. So I think it's a normal reaction. But I think once he has gotten through the convention and once we get into September and October, Jesse Jackson is going to be just as excited to help elect a Democrat as he would have been under any other circumstances.

MS. WOODRUFF: Harry Dent, what do you see as Dukakis's vulnerabilities in the South? Where do you see your party going after him?

MR. DENT: Well, I don't know where they're going to go. They seem to try to put the very liberal image and label on him being from Massachusetts, the state of the Kennedys and so forth, and that certainly doesn't help in the South so far as Dukakis is concerned. And that would be it primarily. The country as a whole has been going against the more liberal Presidential political candidate. The more liberal he is, the fewer votes he gets and the more the Republican wins.

MS. WOODRUFF: But again you don't think the selection of Bentsen, as Harrison Hickman puts it, takes some of the edge off of that?

MR. DENT: I think it does take a little of the edge, but again they're going to vote for the Presidential candidate.

MS. WOODRUFF: Is that right?

MR. HICKMAN: Well, one thing that's important to remember here, the kinds of Republicans who have done well in the South in Presidential elections, but also in Senate races as well, other federal elections, are Republicans who come from working class backgrounds or who are former Democrats, people like Gerald Ford who did reasonably well even though he was running against a son of the South in 1976, or Ronald Reagan, who's done well. When you get a country club Republican, a sort of a suburban Republican running in the South, they don't do nearly as well as these working class background Republicans, or Republicans who used to be Democrats. So I think Bush has a real style problem in the South that's going to be exacerbated by the fact that you don't have a Democratic Vice Presidential nominee who just rules out Dukakis from most people's choices.

MS. WOODRUFF: What about Harry Dent's point there at the end that what people are doing is they're really voting for the man at the top of the ticket, and the running mate has far less to do with the final choice?

MR. HICKMAN: Well, I think that there's no question but that that's true. But a lot of what people are going to think and know about Dukakis are things that they're going to hear from Lloyd Bentsen and they're going to see in the choice of Lloyd Bentsen, and other people who participate in this convention and in the campaign. And Lloyd Bentsen if nothing else I think has given a lot of comfort to Southern Democratic elected officials to say this is the ticket we can support, we can meet them at the airport, we can turn our organizations over to them, and we can campaign hard for change in America.

MS. WOODRUFF: What about that, Harry Dent?

MR. DENT: That is true to some degree. That will help with what we in the South have always called the courthouse crowd. But today we do indeed have a valid two party system in the South and that does not have the strength that it used to have of elected officials going out and supporting the Presidential ticket; it doesn't carry the weight that it used to.

MS. WOODRUFF: What does carry weight?

MR. DENT: What does carry weight is really the way people feel about that man at the top of the ticket. And so far as the South is concerned, they do not go by and large for a person who is considered to be liberal or particularly very liberal.

MS. WOODRUFF: Harrison Hickman, how do we resolve this?

MR. HICKMAN: Well, I think that we can agree on that, that it's the personality and character of the person, of the Presidential candidate that ultimately makes the difference. And I think what Southerners see in Dukakis that they respect and have a trouble with in Bush is somebody who is concerned about middle class America, somebody who has been willing to use government as an instrument to create opportunities for the middle class, and also somebody who wants to see the party and the country sail a middle progressive course.

MS. WOODRUFF: Both of you just quickly, do you see, Harrison Hickman, do you see the South as what, a toss-up, could go either way, leaning Bush, leaning Dukakis at this point?

MR. HICKMAN: I think anything that was open for Dukakis before today is certainly still open and Texas is now in play, and I think if anything, it is probably going to have the largest infusion of cash since the discovery of oil.

MS. WOODRUFF: And, Harry Dent, how do you see the South going?

MR. DENT: I really think that Gov. Dukakis is going to have to crack into the South and today I do not believe that he has the South. It makes all the difference in the world in the electoral vote outcome when you take a whole section of the country like the South and turn it from Democrat to Republican. And that's what's happened in the last few decades.

MS. WOODRUFF: All right. Harry Dent, Harrison Hickman, thank you both. Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Finally we turn to our regular team of Gergen and Shields, David Gergen, Editor of U.S. News & World Report, and Mark Shields, Syndicated Columnist with the Washington Post. Joining them is Bill Tatum, Editor and Chief of the Amsterdam News, the oldest and largest black newspaper in the country.

MR. MacNeil: David Gergen, has Dukakis done a very smart thing today?

DAVID GERGEN [U.S. News & World Report]: Well, at first blush it did not seem so. I think it was a great surprise to those in the media and the pundits and so forth that he was sort of last on their list. There was a big question about whether Lloyd Bentsen would play outside Texas, and I think that question remains open tonight. But when you look at it with more logic -- and I think there was a good deal of logic displayed already in the discussion here. It does make sense in one fundamental way, and that is no Democrat has won the White House without winning Texas. Texas represents 29 electoral votes. Without Texas, it's a very risky strategy for Dukakis to get from here to the White House. If he can win Texas, it's much much easier. And of course he also has a better chance in Oklahoma and Louisiana.

MR. MacNeil: Mark Shields, what's your view of it?

MARK SHIELDS [Washington Post]: I think it was a defining act about Michael Dukakis Today. It said several things about his candidacy, first of all that he, unlike Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, not going to run against Washington. He's going to emphasize the manager. Picking someone like Lloyd Bentsen, he exercised governance above charisma, excitement, generational change, or anything of this sort. If it's an election about reassuring change, today he reassured people. He certainly didn't emphasize change. It's not an exciting ticket. Sell your Sominex stock. This is not a dynamic duo. It may not even be a dynamic solo.

MR. MacNeil: Bill Tatum, your general reaction.

WILBERT TATUM [Amsterdam News]: Well, I'm profoundly saddened by the choice of Bentsen, but it's really not about Bentsen at all. It is about the treatment accorded Jesse Jackson. And one of the gentlemen who preceded us said, buy Sominex stock. I would agree with that, but something that's much more important and that produces the sadness in me, prior to our coming on, we saw an array of white men, Americans, reacting to the candidacy. What happened to the 65 percent approximately of the white women and black Americans who make up so much a part of this country? I find that strange -- as a matter of fact, I find it weird. It seems to me that we have begun to write off significant segments of the population. And then when you give as credentials that Bentsen and Dukakis both speak Spanish, I find that wonderful. But the Spanish in America speak English as well. And I think it will be a cold day in hell before a Spanish speaking person votes for somebody simply because they speak Spanish; that's insulting.

MR. MacNeil: Well, are you saddened by the fact that it wasn't Jackson? It should have been Jackson, in your view.

MR. TATUM: I'm very saddened. It should have been Jackson. Jackson did it the old-fashioned way; he earned it. For four years, he ran for the top spot. He really came close and that surprised me about America, you see. I was really surprised and overjoyed by the reaction of America to a candidacy of a Jackson.

MR. MacNeil: But were you as a journalist really surprised by the fact that he did not? Did you expect him to choose Jackson?

MR. TATUM: I wanted him to. You know, there is a part of every journalist that wants his or her country, his or her people to rise to the highest that any of us could aspire to. There is something in all of us that says one day, maybe one day, one of our politicians will stand tall and do that which is right.

MR. MacNeil: Okay. Now apart from disappointing you personally and as a black American, did he make a mistake strategically or tactically do you think in choosing Bentsen?

MR. TATUM: I think that's really up to Jesse. I had breakfast with Jesse with a number of other of his followers in New York this past week. Jesse had not yet made up his mind as to whether he wanted it. The day before yesterday he said, "I am available if I am chosen." That was a signal that I think Mr. Dukakis should have listened to. Because you see what we have now is an even playing field. It has been years since the Republicans and the Democrats were on an even playing field. Jesse has the kind of charisma, Jesse has the kind of iron will that can guide a significant number of black Americans to the polls or away from the polls.

MR. MacNeil: Let's go back to the others for a moment. Has he made a mistake in that regard, David Gergen, in not choosing Jackson for the reasons we've just heard from Mr. Tatum?

MR. GERGEN: With all due respect to Mr. Tatum, I believe that Jesse Jackson was not handled well here at the end. There is an impoliteness or mistakes apparently were made. I gather from reporting that the Dukakis people tried to reach Jackson, but clearly, they didn't succeed in a way which left Jackson feeling he'd been handled with the kind of respect and dignity he deserved, and in that respect, I think they made a mistake. On the basic question of choosing Lloyd Bentsen versus Jesse Jackson, clearly they did not make a mistake. As recently as this morning we have yet another survey, CBS/New York Times, showing that if Jesse Jackson were on the ticket with Michael Dukakis, it would drive away a great number of independents and Democrats. As welcome it would be to have a black man on the ticket, the name of the game is still to win the election.

MR. MacNeil: Mark Shields.

MR. SHIELDS: I agree with David Gergen emphatically and categorically. Two Northern liberals, that's what Jesse Jackson and Michael Dukakis are. It's a disaster. It's a prescription for defeat, and that's as simple as that. The handling of Jesse Jackson absolutely sounds like from this point, like it was done very very badly and insensitively, and that could provide him with an excuse.

MR. TATUM: You know, we're getting away from a major question here. They're talking about -- they're talking about they made a mistake in handling Jesse.

MR. MacNeil: That's what John White said, who talked to Jesse Jackson today.

MR. TATUM: Jesse's a, he's a big big man.

MR. MacNeil: No, but he talked to Jackson today after he knew this and he said, he may have a complaint on procedure but not on the person who was chosen.

MR. TATUM: That's still up to Jesse. I would not have chosen Lloyd Bentsen. It seems as if we're going once more to the tall Texan, the tall Texan who's going to rescue America from the terrible Republicans. You know, the Republicans have never never moved me since Nixon. I suppose long before. But they haven't moved me. I am a Democrat, have been for a long time, and I would not even suggest that I or black Americans take a walk. I would suggest, however, that Jesse do what he said he was going to do last week, that he pray over what he's going to do, because heexercises enormous influence --

MR. MacNeil: I know he does.

MR. TATUM: -- not only over black Americans, but over a significant portion of the white population that the Democrats are going to need --

MR. MacNeil: Let's ask the hard political question. Has Mr. Dukakis alienated either Jackson, himself, or a significant number of his supporters so that the black vote he will lose by that because they'll stay at home will be greater in its effect than what he will gain in the South from Bentsen? Is that what you believe?

MR. TATUM: I'm not prepared to say that yet, but Mr. Dukakis has made and his people have made a number of mistakes. When Dukakis came to New York City, none of his people ever reached out to the black press in New York to be interviewed. They have written off New York and black New Yorkers to Jesse Jackson.

MR. MacNeil: Let me ask the other two --

MR. TATUM: One more thing that's significant. Black reporters, black newspapers have even had a difficult time getting credentials, press credentials, to go to the convention. As a matter of fact, I called Washington and called Atlanta to raise hell, because I cannot get the number of credentialed reporters into the convention that I needed.

MR. MacNeil: I see. Let me go back to Mark Shields and David Gergen on the Jesse Jackson question. If Jackson takes it badly and takes it badly out of the convention and does what Mr. Tatum suggests and Harry Dent suggested he could possibly do, will that be greater in its negative effect than Bentsen could possibly be positively?

MR. SHIELDS: I don't think so in the long run.

MR. MacNeil: You don't think so?

MR. SHIELDS: I really don't. I don't think he will. I think there are three defining acts of Michael Dukakis's candidacy that are in a compressed period of time. First, was today, the choice of Lloyd Bentsen, which was essentially a micro choice. He choice Lloyd Bentsen because of Texas, not because of Lloyd Bentsen's national constituencies. He's certainly a man with a distinguished reputation in the United States Senate, but not because of a national constituency he's going to bring with him. And the other two are how firmly, fairly, and forcefully he deals with Jesse Jackson, and third, his own acceptance speech, whether, in fact, he can like another son of Massachusetts, whom he continually identifies himself with, inspire and emotionally life a crowd out of its chair. It's something he hasn't done so far. But I honestly don't think that Jesse Jackson -- Harrison Hickman put it very well. It's a decompression period for Jesse Jackson. It's over but it isn't over. It's a tough time. There aren't any more primaries. The microphones are starting to disappear. It's a terrible time in a candidacy. It isn't limited to Jesse Jackson. It happens to everybody who's ever been in the business.

MR. GERGEN: Let me just add to that. I think that if Jesse Jackson takes a walk, if he leaves in great distress, it will do more damage than bringing Lloyd Bentsen to the ticket, however the early reaction, the public reaction from Jackson we saw today was one of restraint, it was one of saying, I'm going to control myself, and that sort of thing. We know he's angry, but he's a man, so far he's handling himself with restraint, and that's I think a signal for what we are about to see.

MR. TATUM: Jesse said something last week at the breakfast I mentioned. Jesse said, "My mama didn't raise no fools." Jesse Jackson does not happen to be a fool, and finally at long last, he will do, in his judgment, what is best for America and what is best for black America.

MR. GERGEN: Robin, there's one other point. I do think that perhaps it should be remembered that the Dukakis people have felt that they were being taunted for the last couple of weeks by Jesse Jackson. They felt that he was acting irresponsibly and they were the ones who felt that they had been done an injustice, and so perhaps there was tension building up which may have led to this, this last minute snafoo, and I do think it's a snafoo. I think they've treated him badly. But I think if you talk to the Dukakis people, you might have a somewhat different version of reality here.

MR. MacNeil: Let me ask one question finally. This is the first time in a long time, at least in my political memory, that this kind of an announcement has been made so far in advance of the convention that already lacks conventional suspense. Is that a smart thing to do, Mark Shields, in this particular case?

MR. SHIELDS: I think that generally speaking, no, Robin. I think the question is absolutely appropriate, but Michael Dukakis and the Dukakis candidacy were besieged. They had said they weren't going to do it like Mondale did it or like anybody had done it in the past and, in fact, they found themselves being compared unfavorably to the statements they had made and the actions that followed, and I think they wanted to get it over with.

MR. MacNeil: Was it a smart thing to do from the point of view of Jackson if they weren't going to choose Jackson to get it over with before the convention?

MR. TATUM: Well, the stupid thing to do was to have allowed it to leak and to have the reporters down their throats. Then they would have to go through a process of denial and then they would have been caught telling a lie. It wasn't smart.

MR. SHIELDS: Wilbert is right there. Wilbert is right. Jimmy Carter in 1976 had private telephones into each of the candidates' rooms before he made his choice and that's how he did it. It's a very difficult logistical job to get the word to everybody.

MR. GERGEN: Jesse Jackson was traveling today. That's the reason apparently they had some trouble reaching him. I think we have to take that into account.

MR. MacNeil: Very briefly, David.

MR. GERGEN: Briefly, Dukakis had to move before the convention because he did not want Jesse Jackson reacting to this in Atlanta with all the kind of people around him he's going to have down there. This is going to allow him to cool down and get this question out of the way before Atlanta.

MR. MacNeil: Well, thank the three of you, Bill Tatum, David Gergen, Mark Shields. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, as everyone knows, the major story of the day was Michael Dukakis's selection of Texas Sen. Lloyd Bentsen as his running mate. In other news, President Reagan ordered the Ambassador and seven other Nicaraguan diplomats out of the country in retaliation for Nicaragua's ousting U.S. officials yesterday, and former Pennsylvania Governor Richard Thornburgh was chosen to replace Edwin Meese as Attorney General. Good night, Robin.

MR. MacNeil: Good night, Jim. That's the Newshour tonight and we'll be back tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.