The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. Leading the news this Tuesday, heavy fighting broke out again in Yugoslavia and new figures showed the U.S. growing as the world's largest debtor nation. We'll have the details in our News Summary in a moment. Judy Woodruff is in New York tonight. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: On the NewsHour tonight the crisis in Yugoslavia is our main focus. We'll talk with the representative of the Slovenian break-away republic, with the ambassador to the U.S. from Yugoslavia's central government and with the No. 2 man at the State Department, Lawrence Eagleburger, then Correspondent Charles Krause has a conversation with a group of American high school students about their year in the Soviet Union.NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: There was fighting in Yugoslavia today and it spread to Croatia for the first time. Federal troops fired on a crowd in the republic's capital. Two people were reported killed. Both Croatia and Slovenia declared independence last week. In Slovenia, federal warplanes attacked Slovenian forces near the border with Austria. Heavy fighting was also reported elsewhere in the republic. Late today Slovenian leaders called for another truce. The federal army has vowed to fight on until all of its troops pinned down in the republic are free. Pres. Bush issued a statement today deploring the violence in Yugoslavia. He said the United States endorsed a European community plan for an internationally monitored cease-fire. Sec. of State Baker condemned the actions with the Yugoslav army. He spoke during a photo session at the State Department.

SEC. BAKER: We laid down some very strong markers with the central government in Yugoslavia with respect to the use of force. We think that they, that they have gone beyond those markers and we have so expressed ourselves.

MR. LEHRER: State Department Spokeswoman Margaret Tutwiler said the U.S. would accept independence for Croatia and Slovenia provided it came about through peaceful means. Earlier, U.S. statements had stressed the need to preserve the Yugoslav federation. We'll have more on the story right after this News Summary. Judy.

MS. WOODRUFF: A team from the United Nations was finally allowed access to an Iraqi nuclear site today. And a spokesman said afterward that they had seen nuclear related equipment. Earlier the UN officials held talks in Baghdad with Iraq's deputy prime minister. They said they made firm demands on Iraq to comply with the Security Council resolutions requiring it to reveal its nuclear weapons facilities. The inspectors would not say whether the materials they saw today were the same ones they were refused access to last week.

MR. LEHRER: Lebanese government troops fought Palestinian guerrillas for a second straight day. It happened in Southern Lebanon in and around the Port City of Sidon during a government operation to retake that region. We have a report narrated by Tom Brown of Worldwide Television News.

MR. BROWN: A column of Lebanese army tanks moves into Sidon, part of more than 6,000 troops sent into the area. As they arrive, Muslim militia men withdraw from long held positions. Most belong to a local group which agreed at the last minute not to fight the army's deployment. Unlike other Lebanese guerrillas, most in the South have refused to surrender their weapons, saying they need them for defense and to fight Israel. Still, the government says it's now completed its troop deployment in and around Sidon, extending the control it already has on Beirut, Northern Lebanon, and the central mountains. By asserting government authority in Sidon, the army is encroaching on an area outside the city that's a PLO stronghold. The government has said its troops will not chase PLO guerrillas into nearby Palestinian refugee camps and the PLO has called for peace. But that hasn't stopped fighting between the army and PLO guerrillas. Battles outside Sidon have left at least four people dead and the problem is far from over. The army next plans to move South to Tia, where it will face another 1,000 Palestinian guerrillas.

MR. LEHRER: More new Israeli settlements were established in the occupied West Bank and Gaza today. Pres. Bush had criticized such actions yesterday. He said they were counterproductive to Middle East peace efforts. Israeli officials today declined comment on the President's remarks.

MS. WOODRUFF: The U.S. became even more of a debtor nation last year. The Commerce Department said the difference between what Americans own overseas and what foreigners own in this country increased by $360.6 billion in 1990. Foreign holdings in the U.S. rose to $2.24 trillion. In other economic news, factory orders for manufactured goods in the U.S. rose 2.9 percent in May. It was the second consecutive monthly increase. And Connecticut today became the second state this week to shut down non-essential services because the legislature failed to pass the budget. State workers rallied outside the capital in Hartford to urge the Senate to pass a spending plan. Maine's governor shut down services there yesterday. At least seven other states are also withoutbudgets two days into the new fiscal year.

MR. LEHRER: Pres. Bush welcomed and praised the President of South Korea today. Mr. Bush said Pres. Roh Tay Woo was leading his country toward economic and democratic reform. He spoke at a welcoming ceremony at the White House this morning. Mr. Bush also applauded the Korean leader for reaching out to two former enemies, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

PRES. BUSH: And that opening to the Soviet Union has eased tension and increased the prospects for peace and stability not just for the republic of Korea, but across the Pacific Rim. But lasting peace will come to Korea only when Korea is made whole. And here too there is hope. Mr. President, only Koreans, North and South, can solve the problem of unification. But all Koreans, North and South, should know that the United States stands ready to act in the interest of lasting peace.

MR. LEHRER: A new political party will be organized in the Soviet Union in opposition to the Communist Party. Former Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze said today its goal will be to remove the threat of dictatorship and revive the democratic process in the Soviet Union. The reformers will meet in September to officially found the organization. Pres. Gorbachev's spokesman said Mr. Gorbachev saw the movement as supportive of his perestroika goals.

MS. WOODRUFF: Actress Lee Remick died of cancer today at her home in Los Angeles. She was 55 and had been fighting kidney and lung cancer for more than two years. She starred in more than 20 films, but was perhaps best known for her role as Jack Lemon's alcoholic wife in the 1962 film "The Days of wine and Roses." That's it for our News Summary. Just ahead on the NewsHour three perspectives on the crisis in Yugoslavia, and American high school students on their year in the Soviet Union. FOCUS - DIVIDED NATION

MS. WOODRUFF: We begin tonight with the growing conflict among the peoples of Yugoslavia and we will have three perspectives on the story from Slovenia, from the central Yugoslav government, and from the Bush administration. Today a fragile cease-fire broke down in the republic of Slovenia which is seeking independence and for the first time there was violence in Zagreb, the capital of the republic of Croatia, which also wants independence. Our coverage starts with a report from Robert Hall of Independent Television News who was with a Yugoslav convoy which came under attack as it crossed the border between Croatia and Slovenia.

ROBERT HALL, Zagreb, Yugoslavia: Contact with the Slovenian militia five miles North of the Croatian border. Federal armored units deploying against the first of a series of barricades on the road to Ljubljana. The armored columns had moved out at speed early this morning. They were to proceed North and relieve a trapped federal convoy. The orders were to keep moving whatever obstacles lay in their path. But the advance came to an abrupt halt. Slovenian militia have had a week to prepare and the federal conscripts may have to fight every mile of this highway. Pinned down, the federal army called in air support -- waves of fighter bombers launching low level attacks against the wooded valley. This is just what Croatia, Slovenia, and the international community feared. The federal high command was warning only last night that direct threats against its forces would be met by what it termed "massive retaliation." It does now seem that the federal army's patience has finally run out. The general commanding this operation told me that he was acting on the orders of the Yugoslav Presidency.

GENERAL ANDRIJA ROWETA, Deputy Chief of Staff: [Speaking through Interpreter] We have three objectives: to secure Yugoslavia's borders, to reach dead and injured federal troops, and to ensure our prisoners in Slovenian hands have been well treated.

MR. HALL: But as the fighting spread across Slovenia, it became clear that those objectives would be achieved at a high price. Federal units have been taking casualties all day. Many of the young conscripts have never been under fire. Some, like this man, gave themselves up after being fired on by their own side. In Belgrade, families of soldiers involved in the operation invaded the national parliament, demanding that the army be recalled to barracks. But this evening, the tanks were still on the move. In Zagreb, angry Croatian protesters gathered outside the Marshall Tito Barracks hurling rocks, planks and petrol bombs. Minutes later came a sound of automatic fire. The crowd scattered -- but not before two people had been killed and several more injured. Tonight the operation shows no sign of halting, with fresh armor on the border roads. After five days of uncertainty, Yugoslavia's fragile peace has finally been shattered.

MS. WOODRUFF: There was also bloodshed today in the Slovenian capital of Ljubljana. The Red Cross estimated that 20 people had died in fighting there. But tonight, Time Magazine Reporter Jamie Grath told the NewsHour he had seen many more bodies in the streets. The fighting in Slovenia included bombing runs by the Yugoslav air force. They were attempting to clear the way for federal troops trapped by the Slovenian forces near the town of Trebge. We have a report from Jeremy Thompson of Worldwide Television News.

JEREMY THOMPSON, Slovenia: The bloody aftermath of another battle. Yugoslav soldiers carry away their injured comrades. Their unit had been attacked by Slovenian militia as it tried to withdraw to barracks. They claimed they'd only fired back because the defense forces stopped them. One of the wounded, a 21 year old Serbian conscript, wept in pain and grief. His best friend had died next to him. He was one of two federal soldiers killed in the shootout when the Slovenians ambushed them at a road block half a mile back down the highway. The cost of this tragic conflict is mounting every day and there are now fears that unless a compromise is worked out quickly, this may be only the start of the killing. A column of army tanks on its way from Croatia to rescue the beleaguered unit was itself pinned down 10 miles away. While Slovenian troops covered the convoy from the hills above, one civilian seemed unaware of the danger. The Slovenian fire power proved accurate and awesome. They seemed determine to stop the army at any cost. Just ahead, warplanes swooped down to try and blast the way through for their heavy armor trapped on the ground. A pall of smoke marked the target the planes had wrecked, but not removed the road block. When we returned to the unit of mobile anti- aircraft guns, the Yugoslav troops were still waiting for help to arrive. They asked us for food and drink. The young soldiers, hungry and frightened, told us they'd been trapped on the highway for six days now without supplies. You have orders to retreat to base, to go to the base, you have orders -- from your commander?

SOLDIER: Just return to base, nothing else. No more killing.

MR. THOMPSON: But you have had to fight many times?

SOLDIER: We have to. If we don't, they're going to kill us.

MR. THOMPSON: How do you feel about this?

SOLDIER: Terrible, really terrible. I'm young. I'm 18 years old. It's terrible.

MR. THOMPSON: You don't want to fight?

SOLDIER: Nobody wants to fight. Ask. Everybody wants peace -- nobody wants to fight.

MR. THOMPSON: As if to reflect that common wish for peace, a local Slovenian farmer appeared with milk and water. The Yugoslavians were pathetically grateful, telling them they had no wish to fight his people. The farmer said he just felt sad for the soldiers. Sgt. Sasha Pentage blamed the politicians for this conflict and killing. The soldiers wanted it to stop. They were just searching for a way to get home in peace. In a Ljubljana hospital, the casualties of both armies lay side by side, victims of a military stalemate that shows little sign of being resolved. Air raid sirens wined across the Slovenian capital again today. Army planes bugged the city, but there was no evidence of bombing, just more raw nerves in this psychological war. Deep in the shelters of a maternity hospital, mothers fed their tiny babies who'd been born into this state of chaos. Back on Highway One, the Yugoslav troops still waiting to be rescued -- reluctant fighters as they are, they dutifully reloaded their weapons as another night of tension approached.

MS. WOODRUFF: Now to the three perspectives we promised. The first is Slovenian and it belongs to Peter Millonig, who heads the break-away republic's U.S. Liaison Office in Washington. He is a banker who has lived in the United States for 10 years. Mr. Millonig, is the situation as chaotic as it appears from these reports?

MR. MILLONIG: Absolutely. I think we are all very enraged and disturbed over the events to take place right now in Slovenia and we hope that at the meeting of the conference for cooperation and security of Europe in Prague tomorrow there will be some way found to mediate the crisis in having observers dispatched to Slovenia to watch the cease-fire agreement to be implemented.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, before I ask you about that, what about the sense that we get from these soldiers who we just saw interviewed that they really don't want to be there, that this is a war that the politicians have brought on the country and on the people, and the people don't want this?

MR. MILLONIG: It's precisely correct. I think there is a misconception that needs to be once and for all disposed as a misconception. It is not an ethnic strive in Yugoslavia that led to these horrible events that we are witnessing over the course of the last few days; it is a conflict between democracy versus Communism. Slovenians have opted overwhelmingly in a very democratic fashion to establish a democratic society and they are precluded from carrying it out by a Communist system that gets its direction, directions from the federal government in Belgrade. So this is the real battle in Yugoslavia that is taking place.

MS. WOODRUFF: But, of course, the position of the central government, as I understand it, is that the republic of Slovenia and Croatia don't have the right to break away, that constitutionally you're forbidden from doing that.

MR. MILLONIG: That's not correct at all. The Yugoslav -- even the Yugoslav Federal Constitution permits the right of any of its constituent parts to declare a secession, to declare independence within its territory, and if we take into consideration the international agreements, covenants of the charter of the United Nations, the Helsinki Final Accord, you will see that this is an inalienable right of every nation, the right to self-determination. And after all, the great country of yours is also based on the very same principle.

MS. WOODRUFF: But if that's the case, then why is the army of the central government putting up such a fierce battle here?

MR. MILLONIG: Because they don't care about the implementation of legality or of legitimacy. All they care about is to stay in power. And they will try to attempt everything that is in their - - to their disposal to achieve that goal.

MS. WOODRUFF: We saw the aftermath of this ambush that the Slovenian troops were, were behind. Where has your government, the Slovenian people, where have you gotten all these weapons from and how much do you have in the way of artillery and tanks and so forth?

MR. MILLONIG: Well, I really couldn't comment on that because I'm not a military expert. I know that there are about 60,000 conscripts of the Slovenian defense forces in total that a third of which I believe has been now made available to defend various strategic sites and so forth. As far as weapons are concerned, I really couldn't comment on it because I'm not an expert in that area.

MS. WOODRUFF: Do you know where the weapons were obtained, what countries?

MR. MILLONIG: I don't know.

MS. WOODRUFF: Can you say -- but the fact there's so much there means that this has been anticipated for some time?

MR. MILLONIG: Well, of course. I mean, if you live under threats constantly of the military, which is Communist infested, if you have to worry an imminent attack -- which was justified by the way, if you can see that the recent events -- then the government as well as the population will do everything possible to protect not only the property of the republic but also the lives of its people. So I think it's totally justified.

MS. WOODRUFF: There was a columnist from Belgrade who had a piece published in the New York Times last week and one of the main points that he wrote was that the break-away republics, including Slovenia, as he put it, are like adolescents who are unrealistic about the real world and about the terms in which they can live in the new Europe, Europe as it's changed in the aftermath of the freeing of Eastern Europe. Does he have a point?

MR. MILLONIG: Well, let's also put the record straight. Slovenia has time and again said it wants to negotiate a peaceful settlement, it wants to rearrange Yugoslavia from a federation to a confederation, because, after all, there is only the -- also the way the Soviet Union will be able to be maintained as a confederation of sovereign states and it was the Serbian government, the federal government in Belgrade, that did not heed any advice. Back in October of last year, the Slovenian parliament drafted an agreement which was sent to the other republic leaders, as well as to the federal government to have precisely that steps initiated. Nothing happened. Then the referendum was declared in Slovenia and 90 percent of the Slovenian population decided in favor of independence. Thereafter in February of this year there was again a resolution passed in the Slovenian parliament to have the state of Yugoslavia mutually dissolved and again nothing happened on the part of the Serbian government. So we have made time and again the request to have a political dialogue which would lead to a result.

MS. WOODRUFF: And you're saying that there was no adequate response. How far is your government or your people prepared to go in all this?

MR. MILLONIG: Well, our position is very clear. We will not go back on independence, on sovereignty. That is a fact and everyone would have to live with it. Your country has fought for independence. You are one ofthe most democratic countries in the world because of that and we would like to also join the same fruit as all the other democratic countries in the West, to live in freedom, peace and dignity.

MS. WOODRUFF: And so you're saying as long as there are troops from the Yugoslav central government in your country, you're going to do whatever you can to get, to get them out of Slovenia?

MR. MILLONIG: Well, yes, with our own forces, and then also with the interest and cooperation of the international community. I hope that we will be able to convince Western countries as well as countries in the East Bloc, in the previous East Bloc, to mediate the crisis to dispatch observers who would try to monitor the implementation of the cease-fire agreement. I hope that it will not come to another violation of that cease-fire agreement. That is the starting point and from that point on we will have to, of course, have negotiations to get the army, the federal army out of the republic of Slovenia for good.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, just on the very current situation, your government proposed an end to the fighting as of 9 o'clock tonight your time, I think 3 o'clock in the afternoon Eastern Time in the United States. What was the result of that? Did anything come of that?

MR. MILLONIG: Well, you know, we have also repeatedly made requests to have cease-fires implemented which time and again have been violated by troops of the federal army. So it is not our government or our troops, the defense forces, who are not willing to cooperate here, but we are really exposed to an attack, to an assault, to a criminal act of aggression on the part of the federal army who wants to preserve Communism in Yugoslavia. And we are fighting that because we would like to live in democracy, freedom, and in dignity.

MS. WOODRUFF: And just quickly on this statement today by the - - at the White House by Pres. Bush and the State Department that the United States is now willing to go along to support independence on the part of your republic as long as it's achieved peacefully, is that a significant move, as far as you're concerned?

MR. MILLONIG: I think it's a move in the right direction, even though I still have very mixed feelings. I do support the notion that the republic of Slovenia does have the right to independence, but I do not support the second part of it which basically states that the republic of Slovenia has been somewhat -- somewhat involved in that negotiating or reaching settlement negotiation beforehand.

MS. WOODRUFF: Well, Mr. Millonig, we thank you for being with us.

MR. MILLONIG: Thank you so much.

MS. WOODRUFF: And now we get another perspective on this and Roger Mudd is in charge. Roger.

MR. MUDD: We have the view of the central Yugoslav government this evening and it comes from Dzevad Mujezinovic, who is the Yugoslav ambassador to the United States. Mr. Ambassador, I'm sure you've been in touch with the central government in Belgrade. Tell me who's running the government now.

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Certainly I am in touch with the central government in Belgrade and the government is run by the prime minister of Yugoslavia, Mr. Markovich. And, as you know, the constitutional problem of election of the president or the presidency has been also resolved so that now the president or presidency has been elected and Mr. Masich, who is representing Croatia is in charge of the presidency. And apart from this, there is a federal parliament that is functioning, and all these three segments make really the federal, federal institutions which are known in the West as federal government taken altogether.

MR. MUDD: Why would then the army chief of staff today have made a surprise appearance on Belgrade Television to declare that the cease-fire would not hold and to accuse, in effect, the federal government of gumming up the works by trying to insist on negotiation?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: You know, in the last three weeks, we had this dualism in Belgrade.

MR. MUDD: Dualism?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Dualism, yes, of authority under which the -- the federal government had the authority over the minister of defense and the general command, that is SN5, in the chief of staff was supposed to be under the command of the supreme commander, that is, the presidency of Yugoslavia. And the presidency of Yugoslavia was not functioning the last two or three weeks. And the president had been elected only the other day and they are now in the process of consolidating and establishing control over the functions that they are supposed to perform in Belgrade and Yugoslavia as a whole. So I am quite sure that this will be put under control in the next few days.

MR. MUDD: Do you have, Mr. Ambassador, any fear that in your country there is a -- there is the danger of a military coup de tas?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Well, I don't think really that the military coup de ta in Yugoslavia is possible. If the military coup de ta were to be attempted, then that would be the end of Yugoslavia forever. The slim chances that still exist about the possibility of negotiating a third new Yugoslavia would definitely be killed with any attempt of a coup de ta.

MR. MUDD: Just before we began our interview, the Associated Press transmitted a bulletin that the Yugoslavian army chief of staff has ruled out a truce over the fighting in Slovenia over its sovereignty. Would that not indicate to you that the army chief of staff is calling the shots and not the president?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Well, I don't know what is the situation really. I have just watched your story and that is very grim story, and I am under impression of these scenes of fighting in Yugoslavia and people running to shelters and all this, I could not imagine that my country would ever come into this situation, and, therefore, I really cannot comment upon this. I presume that he is not prepared to accept cease-fire after the experience they had the other day when the cease-fire was declared and the troops started withdrawing and they were then trapped and attacked by the territorial units of Slovenia. I presume that these attacks were also a result of lack of coordination, not lack of good faith on the part of Slovenian authorities, because they agreed to that and believed they were honest in observing this. But, you know, you have always zealots in the field and some commanders who won't take it on this or that and that happened that one of the colonists was trapped by one of the local commanders of a territorial unit and a number of soldiers were killed and wounded and I presume that this, if it is true, is a reflection of mistrust that exists now between the field commanders and that the army wants to see their troops withdraw as ordered by the presidency into barracks and then only of course the cease-fire would go into effect.

MR. MUDD: Today, Mr. Ambassador, you were asked to come to the State Department by the deputy secretary of state, Mr. Eagleburger. After your meeting with him, do you now understand what U.S. policy is toward this independence movement in Yugoslavia?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: I had never a confusion in my mind about the United States' policytowards Yugoslavia and towards the independence movement and towards the perspective of Yugoslavia. American position has always been consistent and I think it continues to be consistent that United States supports the unity of Yugoslavia, democracy of Yugoslavia, non-use of force, dialogue, and peaceful settlement of all disputes. United States has always said that it will not encourage and reward the secession. It will not encourage unilateral decisions. And that was reflected in the position of Mr. Baker and interpreted by somebody -- by some observers that it was hardening of American position in favor of maintaining integrity of Yugoslavia at any cost. That was not the position of United States. United States has always accepted that they will honor what the Yugoslav people through free dialogue and democratic process achieve.

MR. MUDD: But last Friday, Sec. Baker in Belgrade said that the United States would never recognize the new republics of Slovenia and Croatia. And today Ms. Tutwiler says we'll support anything the Yugoslav people support.

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: No, I don't think -- I was not in Belgrade when Mr. Baker was there, but according to information I have, he has never used the word "never." He has said, he has translated the American attitude that they will not reward and encourage secession into practical diplomatic move. Under present conditions when everything is running into a danger of convulsion, the United States, of course, will not recognize anything that comes as a result of unilateral decision or result of a civil war or a break away by violence and so on. That remains American attitude even today.

MR. MUDD: Did Sec. Eagleburger call you in today simply to tell you that the United States was worried about the fighting taking place near a nuclear plant, or was there another message he gave to you?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Sec. Eagleburger called me to tell me three things. One was about the nuclear plant and fighting and the possible dangers that according to Westinghouse specialists and the nuclear level through the commission of United States may occur as the result of possible damage. Secondly, to convey a message that United States is strongly opposed to the role of the army that is now assuming in displaying its independent role in using force. And thirdly, he warned me about the possible American attitude on tomorrow's meeting of the CFC conference in Prague.

MR. MUDD: My final question. Do you think the United States has the right to give you advice, you, the representative of the Yugoslav government, about your internal affairs?

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Well, certainly United States has always played historically important role in the life of Yugoslavia, ever since Pres. Wilson helped to shape the Yugoslav frontiers through the first -- World War II and after the World War II, United States and Yugoslavia were very close friends and allies. And United States has always shown sympathy and support for Yugoslav independent road of development and during the cold war has helped us to preserve our independence. And since United States is a leading global power responsible for peace and security in the world and in Europe, in particular, it has the right to draw attention to our leaders that a break up of Yugoslavia and civil war would translate into broader conflict in the Balkans, in the Southern Europe and Europe as a whole, and, therefore, I think it is a legitimate concern and the way we are doing it I think is all right.

MR. MUDD: Fine. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.

AMB. MUJEZINOVIC: Thank you very much.

MR. MUDD: Jim.

MR. LEHRER: And now we get an official American view of the Yugoslavia crisis and it comes from Deputy Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, the No. 2 man in the State Department. He served as U.S. ambassador to Yugoslavia from 1977 to '81. Mr. Secretary welcome.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Thank you.

MR. LEHRER: First, did the ambassador accurately report just now what you told him?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Straight on, no problems. He said it just the way I said it.

MR. LEHRER: All right. What was the point of your telling him that?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, the principal point was to make it clear that we condemn the use of force, the excessive use of force which we've seen from the Yugoslav national army over the course of the last few days, make it clear to him and make it clear to Belgrade that we condemned it and it ought to stop and they ought to go back to their barracks. The second message was, as he indicated, we expressed some concern about the nuclear power plant in Kursko which is the scene of some fighting and could be a real mess if they're not careful. And third, as he said as well, I wanted to make it clear to them that the U.S. will support at the CFC meeting tomorrow the sending of observers to Slovenia to observe the cease-fire if we can get one in place.

MR. LEHRER: What is your understanding or belief about these -- the status of who's running the army over there right now? Is it out of control?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I'm not sure I'd say it's out of control, but I would certainly say -- and I think this was true late last week as well -- that while in the first instance that maybe the central government sent them in probably to do something to protect the borders or secure the borders, I think it is -- it's my judgment and I can't prove it, but I would say that I think the army is moving substantially beyond what the central government told them to do and by the sound of things is continuing to do so, and that's pretty stupid.

MR. LEHRER: It's pretty stupid, but can it be stopped?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I don't know. I don't know whether it can be stopped or not. Obviously the CFC meeting tomorrow hopefully will make a difference. And look, in this whole contest, in this whole mess that we've seen developing in Yugoslavia, the constant hope has been that we can get the parties to stop shooting at each other, get them to negotiate, get them to sit down and talk. Now, thus far that has not worked. But it's obviously the path we've got to continue to try to follow because if it doesn't work, there are going to be a lot of very dead people and it will be a terrible tragedy.

MR. LEHRER: Who -- where are the forces for peace right now? Who's working that side of the street?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: You mean in Yugoslavia?

MR. LEHRER: Yes.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: In the international community there's a fair amount of consensus on that.

MR. LEHRER: But the rest of Europe feels the same way the United States does, pretty much what you just said.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Yeah. I think part of the point that I would make with regard to the situation in Yugoslavia is that we have felt from the beginning that the longer this process continues and the way it is now going the less there would be hope that we could get the forces for peace together. I think there still are some. I think there are clearly people in Slovenia, Croatia, and indeed, in Serbia, although they're harder to find, who recognize that they are marching toward an abyss that none of them want to fall over. So I think there are still hopes, but none of those hopes are going to be realized unless the various republics are prepared to sit down and negotiate peacefully. And that has been the theme of the American position from the very beginning. Sec. Baker has said it every time he's had a chance. It continues to be our policy.

MR. LEHRER: Speaking of U.S. policy, it did seem last week that the United States policy was against any kind of independence for Slovenia and Croatia, and now today it seems like it is. Explain that.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, I don't think anything's happened, and I hate to read pieces of paper to you, but give me two seconds to read a U.S. State Department statement of May 24th issued on the instruction of the Secretary of State. One sentence begins "The U.S. will not encourage or reward secession. It will respect any frame work, federal, confederal or other, on which the people of Yugoslavia peacefully and democratically decide." That's been our position -- articulated most recently in May. It's the position all along and this view that we have changed the position, it is just not correct. It is clear that from the U.S. perspective we believe that for the future benefit of the Yugoslav peoples some form of unity, confederal or whatever, that could be arrived at peacefully is the best solution. But we have also made it clear that if democratically and peacefully they decide that they want some other form of either association or whatever, we're prepared to live with it. What we are not prepared to accept is unilateral statements which lead in the direction that we have precisely seen over the course of the last week or two. There is the real danger of civil war and everyone needs to recognize that fact and it will be a terrible civil war if it takes place.

MR. LEHRER: But what do you say to the Slovenians and the Croatians who say if you want to avoid civil war, United States, then help them establish their independence? There's no turning back on that.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, the point is obviously our view is that if they establish their independence unilaterally rather than through a negotiated settlement with the other republics, peacefully arrived at, there will be a civil war and we have seen the beginnings of it now. What we are very much afraid of is that unilateral acts will lead to precisely the kinds of events that we have now seen, only they will be far worse. And blood is going to be on somebody's hands. And the U.S. position is the only way to solve this problem to the benefit of all the Yugoslav people is to sit down and negotiate peacefully.

MR. LEHRER: The blood that has already been shed is on whose hands now?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, you know, that's -- first of all, I think there is no question and we have made it clear that the excessive use of force by the Yugoslav national army from the beginning is wrong, it's to be condemned, and certainly it has had a major part to play in the blood that is on these people's - - on people's hands now. On the other hand, I have to say as we have said for months, unilateral decisions to depart from the federation can also play a part and have played a part in the consequences we now see happening.

MR. LEHRER: The Slovenian representative just told Judy that the real issue here is democracy versus Communism. Do you agree?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: I wish it were that simple. Certainly, and I cannot argue for one moment and would not, the Slovenian people, the Croatian people, have democratically elected governments which clearly which to leave the federation. We have no argument with that. We have no argument with the fact that these are democratically elected governments. Where we stand and have stood for months is that if they have a desire to leave, that ought to be negotiated. If they have a desire for some other form of confederation, that needs to be negotiated peacefully, and that any other attempt at a solution -- it's not an issue of Communism versus democracy, it is an issue of whether the Yugoslav peoples will find themselves deeply enmeshed in a civil war in which thousands of people will be killed. I can't say that enough. And every bit of evidence in the last week and over the course of the last 50 years in Yugoslav history would tell you that is precisely what's going to happen.

MR. LEHRER: But as a practical matter, the central government is a Communist government and the other governments are not.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: That doesn't mean that they can't sit down and negotiate peacefully for a new confederation of some form or another. I'm not arguing with whether there are Communists and democrats. There clearly are. I am saying that the only way to avoid what we are seeing develop is a peaceful negotiation between the various parties and the various republics. Any other way is going to lead to an awful mess.

MR. LEHRER: Is the United States being listened to in this?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Oh, I think we're being listened to to some degree in Yugoslavia. I think the Europeans are being listened to to some degree in Yugoslavia, but the caution I would say again is the longer this proceeds and the ways in which it has over the course of the last week, the less rationality will prevail and the more emotion will prevail. And under those circumstances, I wouldn't want to predict the consequences, other than to say I think they'll be terrible.

MR. LEHRER: It looks pretty grim tonight, does it not?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Certainly if the generals have taken the position they say they have taken, it is again another stupid act on the part of the Yugoslav military. It is not the way to deal with this problem, and I would -- again, what this is saying is from our perspective there are a great many people in Belgrade and in Ljubljana and in Zagreb who need to take a deep breath and sit back a bit and say we've got to come to the negotiating table. It is the only way to deal with this issue.

MR. LEHRER: Mr. Secretary, to take the downside scenario for a moment, who has the most guns, who would likely prevail if there was an all out civil war?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: If there's all out civil war, it's a question and it's one of the things I disagree with the Slovenian representative, this is potentially a major ethnic confrontation. There are thousands of Serbs who live in Croatia. It's a heterogeneous country in many ways. And if these republics begin to break up, there's going to be a real mess between the various ethnic groups. I don't know who wins. I'll tell you who loses. It's the innocent people of Yugoslavia, the various republics of Yugoslavia, who will be killed in the process. I can't possibly tell you who wins. I can tell you we could face real chaos in the Balkans, in Europe, at a time when everything else in Europe has been going in the right direction and hopefully toward democracy.

MR. LEHRER: Where did all the guns come from, Mr. Secretary?

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Well, I think there are a number of explanations for that. Certainly with regard to the Yugoslav national army, I don't think there's any issue.

MR. LEHRER: Sure.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: They've been supplied -- I can't be sure about where the guns came from in Slovenia, but one thing that needs to be remembered is that for years, the Yugoslavs have stockpiled arms in various caches in the various republics, kind of going back to thinking about a war like the partisan war during the second world war, and these would be available for partisan groups to pick up. Some of it clearly came from that. Some of it obviously has come from suppliers outside Yugoslavia.

MR. LEHRER: All right. Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.

SEC. EAGLEBURGER: Thank you. CONVERSATION - EXCHANGING VIEWS

MS. WOODRUFF: Finally tonight some distinctly American views of events in the Soviet Union. They belong to a group of teenagers who were sent there by the American Field Service, AFS for short, an organization that sponsors student exchange programs all over the world. Correspondent Charles Krause talked with the young people last week in Moscow.

MR. KRAUSE: They were the first group of AFS students ever to spend a year living in the Soviet Union, another sign of the dramatic changes that have occurred in this country. The AFSers stayed with Soviet host families from Latvia in the West to Kazikstan in Central Asia. We interviewed nine of them in Moscow last week before they returned home to the United States. What was the biggest difference between living here and living at home?

AMY ADAMS: There are a lot of differences. The biggest difference -- gosh -- was -- part of it was the restrictions on my freedom and not just freedom going out late at night, but if I wanted to go somewhere, I didn't have my car waiting for me in the garage. I'd have to go somewhere on public transportation. If I wanted to go out and get something to eat, I'd maybe have to stand in line for it or maybe go to several stores to find it first. And that was a really big thing to adjust to. And it was -- that was something I noticed right off the bat right when I got there that everything -- I had to plan out things much more.

JONATHAN NELMS: I just learned nothing here is built around convenience. Everything is sort of the bare bones. Nothing is easy. Nothing is convenient. I remember in America --

TEENAGE GIRL: Seven Elevens.

JONATHAN NELMS: Yeah. We're getting the run around or something. We all complain nothing is simple. But here nothing really is simple. You want to go buy ice cream at the little kiosk and oh, there isn't any. Or you want to get train tickets -- there's none. And you want to buy a television or something. You have to wait two or three years. Nothing was easy.

TEENAGE BOY: And all the stores close for an hour in the middle of the day.

TEENAGE GIRL: To have a rest.

AUDREY SANBORN: Just the time that you waste just doing menial things that you wouldn't even think about in the U.S. and there's so much of that! And one of the biggest feelings that I wanted was just to take my friends, just to take 'em by the hand and just get 'em out of here. Because I don't want 'em to have to live their lives through this!

MR. KRAUSE: One of the things you can't help noticing the minute you get here is the lines. People at home think there's really not any food in the Soviet Union. Is that true?

CAMMI SULLIVAN: Nothing in the stores, but it's always on the table. You will never be hungry if you're staying with a family.

TEENAGE GIRL: They have a friend here or a friend there that knows how to get it and knows where to get it and use connections. There's always meat in the freezer but I never saw it come into the house.

LAURA MADSEN: We have food from our summer cottages. We have our own gardens and the whole year I lived off of cabbage. The whole year we ate that and potatoes that we had ourselves grown.

EMILY MAXON: They're just much more industrious people than Americans, it seems like. I mean, every family will pack down in bottles when there's an extra in the summertime, you know.

JONATHAN NELMS: I don't think industrious is the word to describe the people.

AMY ADAMS: No, no, no.

JONATHAN NELMS: Everyone uses resources.

TEEN GIRL: You can't say our mothers aren't industrious. I think they think of everything.

JONATHAN NELMS: Oh, I think they work very hard, but I think if you say the Russian people as a whole an industrious people, that's what they're built upon, that's what their propaganda is, but that's not the fact. They're resourceful.

TEEN BOY: Yeah, they're resourceful.

MR. KRAUSE: All right. They're resourceful but where -- you all have agreed that somehow there's no food in the stores and yet you all had enough to eat.

JULIE BAYER: It was connections. You know somebody who knows somebody. For example, we had a neighbor who always brought us food. He would call like once a week and said I have some sausage and I have meat and I have cottage cheese and I have sour cream and fine, but not every --

MR. KRAUSE: Where did that come from?

JULIE BAYER: He was -- from where he worked.

MR. KRAUSE: Are your host families angry about the situation? Does it bother them that they have to spend --

CAMMI SULLIVAN: They spend it all on the black berets and the mafia.

PETER JIRAK: In Georgia it's really funny. Georgians are all, when something goes bad, they blame Gorbachev. In Tblisi it's even worse. I was traveling with somebody and we were in a market and that market wasn't very full and the woman started to curse Gorbachev right and left and one of the other Georgians walked up to her and she said, are you from Tblisi, because you can just tell, that's what they're like. It's true, in Georgia, it's Gorbachev's fault, everything is Gorbachev's fault.

EMILY MAXON: Glasnost is just something that's just kind of like a swear word now. Perestroika is just like -- [Everyone Talking and Agreeing at Once]

JONATHAN NELMS: Yeah. They tie that into Gorbachev now and then they just build the same contempt for those words and those policies that they do --

TEEN GIRL: Right.

SCOTT VESSELS: The thing they understand more than anything else is from -- you know, there's more food in the stores, that's good, then they don't really -- they're not really concerned with the politics and the democracy and those other things.

JONATHAN NELMS: Things have gotten noticeably worse. When we got here last fall I remember we'd go to the city department store and granted, there was -- it wasn't an American department store but there were clothes everywhere, it was full, and there were winter hats and there were shoes and everything was there and I just took a last walk around the city before I left and I went to that store and there was nothing.

TEENAGE GIRL: Nothing. The racks are empty.

JONATHAN NELMS: There was one dress. And on the bottom floor the only shoes they had at all were galoshes and men's slippers. That is it, in the whole department store.

MR. KRAUSE: What did your families think about the future of a market economy and of democracy in the Soviet Union?

JULIE BAYER: It just depends. Nobody really knows what's going to happen, but they're in favor of it.

SCOTT VESSELS: Especially in Latvia.

JULIE BAYER: Especially in Latvia.

SCOTT VESSELS: Because when Latvia was independent, they were a very strong market economy in Europe and so they, they tend to look very much back to the past and at the way things were and they just think as soon as they have a market economy everything will be great, which is sort of not necessarily true. They're very very much in favor of getting away from the Soviet Union and setting up their own economy.

PETER JIRAK: In Georgia also, they want to be independent very much. They want a free market economy. They want ties with the West. They are ready inside to do this transition. I don't know how firm their plans are. I mean, you need a plan. You need to organize your own team before you can go out and join the baseball league. But they really want it very much.

MR. KRAUSE: How about in the Russian republic, where you were?

AMY ADAMS: They don't really understand how to go about it yet. There isn't a drive inside of them to work. I think we've all been raised to think that if you work hard, you'll get that promotion and you'll make more money and you'll climb the ladder to success. Well, that's kind of the American dream. Here there's no such dream. It's you work and you work for the benefit of the people and slava, that means glory to the people, and collective. And so they all -- no matter how hard you work, you're not going to get a promotion, you're going to stay in that same rut or that same job the rest of your life and there's no drive within them and so they don't know how to go about it. It's like a fish out of water.

MR. KRAUSE: The question of independence, sovereignty is very important right now. What were people saying about what was going on in the republics?

JONATHAN NELMS: From a Russian point of view they're very much - - not all of them -- I think for the most part now they're saying heck with it, let 'em go. That's basically what my family was saying. But on the other hand, the Soviet Union for 70 years, you know, the Communist Party, they built the factories in the Baltics and they built the factories in the Ukraine and they did have a point to make that they built these factories and they populated these areas, whether that was the right thing to do or not, that they did that.

TEENAGE GIRL: It was done.

JONATHAN NELMS: It was done and now all these republics want their independence but they want to keep their factories and kick out the Russian population.

TEEN GIRL: That's not true. That's propaganda.

MR. KRAUSE: But the point is, do Latvians from what you know, do they want to kick out the Russians?

TEENAGE GIRL: No.

SCOTT VESSELS: The population of Latvia is about 50 percent non- Latvian and 73 percent of the population voted for independence. So more than half of the Russian or non-Latvian population of Latvia supports the idea of an independent Latvia so they're not, they're not afraid that things will be difficult for them. They know that economically and politically things would be much better.

MR. KRAUSE: Peter, you were in Georgia when they were tearing down the Lenin statue. What was that like?

PETER JIRAK: Well, in Georgia, and it progressed through the whole year, starting in August, almost towards the beginning of our experience, we'd been gone for three weeks to a smaller city in Georgia and the day we came back they were trying to tear down Lenin and it had been vandalized, somebody had spray painted and somebody had even tried to attach a bomb to it, but it's a very strong statue. It took hours to pull down and so the bomb didn't do much good, but yeah, you know, it started from there and it built up. There was a lot of confusion in Georgia and I'm surprised that the Communist Party lost so much power because originally when the elections first started I think there was over 100 parties and I didn't see how the Communists could lose, but that's how much they're against not only Communism but against the state and the union. And it just built up all year until you know the elections, a very pro-independence minded government was elected, and then Independence Day. And, you know, there was very little resistance. And Georgia's a lot different from Latvia though. I mean, there seems to be a lot of confusion over nationality and so on. There are people who just see that, you know, everybody who lives in Georgia who supports independence is a resident of Georgia, and then there are Georgians who do want Georgia to be for Georgia. And it's causing problems. You know, I think it's making news back home about Southern Asetia. There are regions where there conflicts but not as big like Acacia.

MR. KRAUSE: But are you saying that -- I mean, there are nationalities within Georgia which want to be free of Georgia and then there are Georgians who want to be free of the Soviet Union.

PETER JIRAK: Yeah.

MR. KRAUSE: And there are people who aren't quite sure what they want to do.

PETER JIRAK: Right. There's a lot of confusion but they're trying to work things out.

MR. KRAUSE: Is Lenin still there?

PETER JIRAK: No. Lenin's gone. They -- they worked real hard. I haven't seen so many people work so hard all year. They had chains around him and they had I think by the time they pulled him down, they had gotten three cranes into Lenin Square which has been renamed Freedom Square and they were tugging on it. And when it came down not only was it this huge granite statue but inside it had been steel reinforced and they got it down and within three days there wasn't a trace that it was there.

MR. KRAUSE: Do you think people in this country have lost their sense of fear?

JONATHAN NELMS: Maybe lost their fear as far as speaking their mind. I think that's totally gone because I can hear people on the street cursing and swearing about Gorbachev.

EMILY MAXON: But there is a fear of the future I think. I think there are people who are afraid that it's just going to get worse and worse and worse and they think, oh, you know, my children, it's going to be so bad for them, you know, and it just seems like sometimes I think about the system, the Soviet system. I can't think of any way that it could be righted. It's just been so changed. And I mean, maybe I just don't understand, but the way it seems right now, I just don't know how it could ever be changed.

MR. KRAUSE: This is a big question, but do you think the United States and the West ought to provide aid to this country and try and help it through this period?

TEEN GIRL: Personally I think that that's one of the worst things --

JONATHAN NELMS: No financial aid.

CAMMI SULLIVAN: They have to find themselves. They have to find some sort of self-discipline, some sort of incentive to get themselves going.

AMY ADAMS: But they need someone to help them to show them how to go about it because they don't know themselves. You need to send people over to educate the people about market economy, about any kind of --

TEEN GIRL: Don't send food, don't send money. [Chaotic Overlap]

JONATHAN NELMS: What they really need, the world's oldest parable, give a man a fish and you've fed him once, teach a man to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime and that's exactly what needs to happen. We need to teach them to fish.

PETER JIRAK: It's more than that. I mean, if you're going to give a man a fish, you give a fish to a hungry man, you don't give a fish to a man who owns a fish market.

JONATHAN NELMS: You give the Soviet Union a fish, it'll spoil on the tray. [Laughter by all] RECAP

MS. WOODRUFF: Again the main story this Tuesday, heavy fighting broke out in the Yugoslav republic of Slovenia and spread to the neighboring republic of Croatia. Both republics declared independence last week. On the NewsHour this evening Deputy Sec. of State Lawrence Eagleburger said the Yugoslav army had used excessive force. He characterized their actions as stupid. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Judy. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you and good night.