The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MS. WARNER: Good evening. I'm Margaret Warner in New York.

MR. LEHRER: And I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington. After our summary of the news this Monday, we have a Newsmaker interview with Attorney General Janet Reno about violence and violent crime, plus a report from Denver on the street violence of juvenile gangs, and a Charlayne Hunter-Gault conversation from the West Bank about peace. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: Attorney General Reno continued her attack on television violence today. She said it was on of several factors in society which encourage young people to act violently. She spoke at a session with young questioners from an organization called Children's Express. The session was televised by public station WHMM in Washington.

JANET RENO, Attorney General: We have got to teach children and all people that beginning in our elementary schools, how to resolve conflicts without using knives, and fists, and guns, and I had been impressed that programs I saw in our schools in Miami, in our elementary schools, that dealt with conflict resolution in a peaceful manner are being tried in various forms across the country, and I think they are working. I think it's important that the television industry get with it and follow through on its promises to do something about programming and about gratuitous violence on TV that has no newsworthy character to it whatsoever. There are so many things that we can do if we create a situation where children can grow as strong and positive people.

MR. LEHRER: Attorney General Reno will be with us right after this News Summary.

MS. WARNER: A 19-month truce between rival clans was shattered today in Somalia. U.S. troops watched from the sidelines but did not take part in the fighting. U.N. officials said at least 10 Somalis were killed and 45 wounded. The battle started when supporters of a rival warlord tried to hold a rally in the southern part of Mogadishu controlled by Mohamed Farrah Aidid. Fighting between these two clans led to Somalia's civil war in 1991.

MR. LEHRER: Israel freed hundreds of Palestinian prisoners today. The release is part of a peace plan with the PLO. We have a report narrated by Vera Frankel of Worldwide Television News.

VERA FRANKEL, WTN: The Magido Prison in Northern Israel, a bus carrying some of the released prisoners headed to the occupied territories. Israel decided to release the Palestinians despite Sunday's attack by Hamas militants in Gaza in which two Israeli soldiers were killed. But Israel punished Hamas by cancelling the release of its supporters. Only pro PLO prisoners were set free. Many of those released belong to the most vulnerable category of detainees, the old and the sick. Women and young prisoners were also freed but many others were left behind bars. Israel holds an estimated 12,000 prisoners, many for political activities during the Intifada. The names of the released detainees were not announced beforehand. Thousands of relatives waited outside detention centers. Some were rewarded, but many others were disappointed. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin responding to severe criticisms by hard-line Israelis said the release was part of the peace process.

YITZHAK RABIN, Prime Minister, Israel: We had to negotiate to carry out acts like release prisoners that they need, and at the same time to cope with those who decided to continue terror.

MS. FRANKEL: In occupied Gaza, Hamas tried to strike again. A man rammed a car full explosives into an Israel convoy. It didn't explode, and the army disposed of it safely.

MR. LEHRER: President Clinton discussed the Middle East peace process today with Egypt's President, Mubarak. After their White House meeting, they called on Israel and Syria to resume their stalled peace talks. Mubarak said he believed differences could be overcome within a short period of time. Mr. Clinton said progress must also continue on other tracks like full implementation of the Israeli-PLO Agreement.

MS. WARNER: In Haiti today, U.N. envoy Dante Caputo appealed to former western hemisphere heads of state to come to Haiti within the next 48 hours. He said their presence would encourage members of Haiti's parliament to come out of hiding and vote for amnesty legislation that could clear the way for ousted President Aristide to return to power. Caputo's appeal was directed to Jimmy Carter, Brian Mulroney of Canada, and Michael Manley of Jamaica, among others. President Clinton spoke about it at a news conference this afternoon.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Caputo has done a good job and has worked very closely with my special envoy there, Amb. Pezzullo. The first I heard of the suggestion was this morning. I have discussed Haiti on several occasions with President Carter. He knows President Aristide. He did got to President Aristide's inaugural ceremony. He has been working with this administration on some other problems in some other nations, so this is not a new thing that we've ever discussed in the specific sense. I think before I would make a comment, I'd have to see what his reaction was. I understand that Mr. Caputo mentioned Michael Manley also. What they would do under these circumstances would be up to them but all of these things I think generally are hopeful. It means everybody is trying to reach out and bring this matter to some resolution.

MS. WARNER: Mr. Clinton said he was also encouraged by reports that Haiti's military leader, Gen. Cedras, was trying to negotiate an end to the standoff. Sec. of State Christopher on a trip to Kiev today failed to convince Ukraine to get rid of all of its nuclear weapons. Ukraine is one of four former Soviet republics with a nuclear arsenal. Yesterday, Christopher won Kazhakstan's pledge to dismantle all its nuclear warheads, but today Ukraine's parliamentary leaders rejected Christopher's appeal. They said Ukraine had to retain about a quarter of its nuclear arsenal as a hedge against instability in neighboring Russia.

MR. LEHRER: Canadian voters are picking a new government today. All 295 seats are at stake in the lower House of Parliament. The party that wins the most seats selects a prime minister. The Conservative Party has held power for nine years but opinion polls before today's vote had the Liberal Party favored. And that's it for the News Summary tonight. Now it's on to the attorney general, Denver gangs, and a Middle East conversation. NEWSMAKER

MR. LEHRER: We go first tonight to a Newsmaker interview with the attorney general of the United States, Janet Reno. Attorney General Reno, welcome.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Thank you. It's good to be here.

MR. LEHRER: First, on this question of using National Guard troops to help the police in Washington, D.C., you support that, is that correct?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: What I have said is that National Guard troops can be used in various ways. They're being used in various ways in the country now in terms of appropriate administrative support. I think policing should be done by trained police officers, and I think we can work together to try to address the issue, however, the President doesn't have the authority to delegate to that to the mayor. And he has asked myself, Dr. Lee Brown, and Sec. Aspin to meet with her tomorrow morning to see what we can do with our current resources to support her efforts.

MR. LEHRER: Now, support her efforts to do what? I mean, what is the, what is the problem as she has outlined it to you or to the federal government?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: One of the problems in previous meetings that I've had with the mayor is what does she do with these people once the police arrest them. You have people getting out of prison prematurely. You have a need for, for additional resources in that regard perhaps, and thus, we need to look at what can be handled federally and what should be handled by the district, and we're in the process of doing that, and we will continue that effort with it. We need to look at what we can do in terms of technical advice and support her expansion of the drug court concept. With a grant from the Department of Health & Human Services, a drug court will be initiated shortly in the district, and that can be, I think, a very beneficial program to address the long range issue of drug abuse and drug-incited violence. And then we need to look at programs for juvenile crime and what we can do through the various agencies of government to support her efforts there. In the meantime, we will continue to see how we can bring law enforcement together. Dr. Brown has met with the chief.

MR. LEHRER: He's the drug czar.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The drug czar and the former New York City police commissioner -- to see what we can do in terms of community policing initiatives and other federal support in that regard. But we want to do a thoughtful, common sense approach without promises but with action.

MR. LEHRER: It doesn't sound to me then -- listening very carefully to your answer -- that you're saying yes, Mayor Kelly, Washington, D.C., we will be delighted to call out the National Guard and put the National Guard on the streets of Washington to guard against violence. That's not what you're saying, is it?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I didn't say that.

MR. LEHRER: So that request is anywhere -- is nowhere close to being granted, is that right?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: We will sit down with Sec. Aspin in the morning and just see what we can do withthe resources we have under the law to be as supportive as we can.

MR. LEHRER: Explain -- can you put this kind of request into context? The way it has been displayed, the way it's been reported, the way it's been commented on is simply that crime on the streets of a major United States city -- in this case the one that happens to be the capital of the country -- is so much out of control that the police and the civil authorities cannot take care of it any longer, and it must become a military problem, is that a correct reading of what's going on here?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: You would have to check with the mayor but that's certainly not a correct reading of how the National Guard had been used in the past in this country. These are citizen soldiers who give their time and who have in a number of instances on the border and elsewhere provided very invaluable support services for communities, for municipal government, and for the, the federal government. It's something that's ongoing, that's thoughtful. It is not a militarization of the police. It's these - - I mean, of the national -- of local police, but it is a thoughtful effort using resources within our control to support various municipal and other efforts. I think the important thing for us to do, the course we should follow here is stop the sensationalizing and see just what can be done with police doing the policing and the National Guard providing other services that are, are much needed to make sure we get the job done with the resources we have.

MR. LEHRER: Well, as a practical matter, isn't, isn't what the National Guard is prepared to do is to go out on street corners with weapons? Isn't that what they are trying to do?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The National Guard is traditionally, when it has gone out, gone out in a function that does not require that they, they be armed, and it is important that their role again not be the policing role. I think that one of the things that is essential is that police who are on the streets, who are exposing their life to danger, who are taking -- who have the community safety at stake -- that they be trained, well trained in the legal issues, in the issues relating to search and seizure and what is necessary to apprehend somebody when deadly force can be used, and I think it's important that we continue that police function in the hands of well trained police.

MR. LEHRER: So is it a fair statement then, Attorney General Reno, that if it's left up to you, if it's your decision, the National Guard is not going to be used as policemen on the streets in Washington, D.C., or any other city?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Well, it's not going to be left up to me but my strong advice to anybody is that policing should be in the hands of well-trained police, and the National Guard can perform many other valuable functions that don't relate directly to the policing function.

MR. LEHRER: Some people have interpreted this -- here again I can see where you say talk to Mayor Kelly about this -- but some people have interpreted her plea for help as one of desperation, that this situation of street crime -- now she's talking obviously about Washington. Put the Washington thing in a national context as the attorney general of the United States. Is street crime out of control in the United States to where that, putting National Guard troops out on the street corners may be the only solution right now?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Well, first of all, it's not a solution, and secondly, anytime somebody gets hurt, a situation is out of control in that regard, and we have to take -- have to constantly look at what we can do in using all our efforts. It makes no sense to add police if you don't have places to put these people have the police arrest them. It makes no sense to have the best prisons in the world if you don't provide after care and follow-up that helps the person coming from the prison get back to the community with a chance of success. Most of all, it makes no sense whatsoever to neglect our twelve and thirteen-year-olds who are getting into trouble. We're not following up in this nation in terms of doing something to stem that tide, to address the issue of youth violence, and to make a difference. The most important thing for us to do in this whole crime fight is to start talking with common sense, start putting dollars where they can count, and start working with community in a real partnership. And when we say we're going to punish, we've got to mean what we say. When we say we're going to provide alternative services, we've got to mean what we say. I think we can make a difference in terms of crime if the federal government and local governments work together in a real partnership, using their limited resources as wisely as possible.

MR. LEHRER: You've caused a lot of commotion in the last few days, again today, in your comments about television violence, and I'm sure you have -- if you've haven't read, you've heard of the editorial reaction which I think it's correct to say has been mostly negative, at least on the editorial pages of the newspapers saying, wait a minute, street crime is terrible, but the federal government deciding what goes on television would be worse. Do you have any second thoughts about your position on this?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: No, I was almost relieved to get editorialized against. It made me feel a little bit more human. And, again, as I said it is an option -- government regulation in this area is an option I do not prefer. I much prefer the industry do something now instead of talking about it. And my sense is that they're going to do that. Those representatives that came to my office expressed concern about wanting to cooperate.

MR. LEHRER: When did they come, before or after your --

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Before.

MR. LEHRER: Before.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Of wanting to work together, of wanting to do something, and I think if we all sit down and look at it and discuss it, we can come up with something voluntary on their part that can get the job done. But if they don't, we cannot continue to look at the clear evidence that television violence enhances violent conduct on the part of our children.

MR. LEHRER: What's the clear evidence? What's the evidence that makes you feel so strongly about this?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: The clear evidence that I have seen most recently was summed up in the most recent report by the American Psychological Association that talks about violence generally. It's not focused just on TV violence, but it's on -- it was a commission on youth violence. It's a thoughtful, careful report that makes clear that television violence is not the principal cause, that there are so many different factors that feed into this, lack of parental supervision, educational deficiencies, health care problems, just a whole range of issues that make it imperative that we raise our children in a positive, strong, and healthy manner to give them a chance. But it is clear, it seems to me from these findings, that, that this organization and with a sound, very thoughtful study had again confirmed what other reports have confirmed, that it does contribute, not the principle factor but something that we have to consider. And the thing that gets me is those representatives of the industry said, look, we're not going to argue with whether it causes it anymore; we want to do something about it. And my challenge to them is let's not wait another year. Let's start doing it now. If their response is that we already have program contracts till the end of the year, fine, then let's develop a time frame in which we do it, but let's have specific steps that are going to be taken so that everyone knows this problem will be addressed. And I also think that the American people have to let advertisers know that they don't want violence advertised at times that children watch television. I also think baseball games should be shown earlier in the day, in the evening.

MR. LEHRER: You've got a long agenda there for you.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: But childhood is a long agenda, and one of the problems that people have started -- you know, they focus on narrow, little bits of a person's development. We've got to have a comprehensive effort that puts money up front in prevention, rather than waiting till the crisis occurs.

MR. LEHRER: Well, but what do you say to those folks who've raised the question since your comments of last week, that they say generally they agree with you, but who is it in the federal government, who's going to -- you used the word today in that little tape that we ran in the News Summary -- you used the word "gratuitous violence" -- who's going to decide whether this exchange of gunfire between a TV cop and a TV hood is gratuitous or part of the story in a legitimate way? And is there any, anybody -- I don't mean person, but, but organizational body of the federal government that could be constructed to make that kind of judgment?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Let the industry make it.

MR. LEHRER: Let them set up their own thing.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Yes, they said they can do it. They've shown they can do it. Let's put it into effect.

MR. LEHRER: And you are -- but you are deadly serious if they don't, you're going to judge that, you're going to say, look, I don't think you've done it right, and then --

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Everything is a balance. You have freedom of speech but you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Can you say everybody out in five minutes in a crowded theater? Everything in that wonderful, wonderful document called our Constitution is a matter of balancing. Right now, our children are at stake. You have an incredibly wonderful medium, and I feel like I'm preaching to the choir with you because you do it better than most people in terms of using this television set as something that can educate people, but if the industry only saw the tremendous potential for giving our children a chance to grow in a positive way and used it in an afternoon program and in evening programming, it would be so wonderful.

MR. LEHRER: Have you told 'em that?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I've told 'em that, and I even started - -

MR. LEHRER: What did they say?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I even started writing a script for them.

MR. LEHRER: What do you mean a script?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I have a script -- I have a story plot already worked out.

MR. LEHRER: For them?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Yes.

MR. LEHRER: For what?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: A fourteen-year-old kid is my hero who helps raise his two siblings while his mother is recovering from crack addiction, and he got her into treatment, and the end of the story is three years later she goes to law school, and he graduates as valedictorian.

MR. LEHRER: Anybody buy your script?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: No. I told them they could have it free.

MR. LEHRER: I see. Nobody -- nobody's optioned it yet, right?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: No. FOCUS - CULTURE OF VIOLENCE?

MR. LEHRER: Look, now, Ms. Reno, I want to move this discussion specifically to the subject of gang violence. Your Justice Department and other agencies, recently you named Denver as a test city for a new effort to combat youth violence. We first covered Denver's problems in 1989. Tom Bearden has this update report.

MR. BEARDEN: Four years ago, the NewsHour interviewed Damon Roberts. At the time, Roberts was a cocky, sixteen-year-old who bragged about being a member of a gang called AK.

DAMON ROBERTS: [1989] AK means Anybody Killer, gangster. I mean, the -- I killed Cryps and Bloods, you know, whoever.

MR. BEARDEN: Back then, Roberts thought Denver was a new frontier for tough young drug dealers.

DAMON ROBERTS: This is the big easy. That's what they call it, "the big easy." It's easy. You make more money in littler towns. LA's a big city. They have a lot of gang members, so I'm selling drugs, or doing whatever, there ain't that much money but they come to a town like Denver where they ain't hip, and they can make all the money they can.

MR. BEARDEN: Roberts is now dead, a casualty of the same violence he once embraced. Police say Roberts was shot to death by a fourteen and a sixteen year old in a drug deal gone sour. In 1989, Rev. Leon Kelly tried to persuade Damon Roberts and other teens to leave the gangs. Back then, as a gritty reminder of the dangers of gang life, Kelly covered his office walls with clippings about murdered gang members in Los Angeles. Today Kelly's walls are filled with the names of murdered Denver youth.

REV. LEON KELLY, Open Door Youth Gang Alternatives: It has caused certainly me to become frustrated, you know, as I've heard the cries and the concerns from many of these kids. As we spoke to the young men back then, they expressed their concerns and their desires and hopes. But yet, it is almost like yelling out, you know, boys yelling out in the wilderness. You know, nobody wants to listen. Nobody wants to really take this problem as a serious problem.

MR. BEARDEN: Also back then, Kelly had a roomful of teens, including Roberts, who said they wanted out of the gangs. They were worried about the direction gangs were taking in Denver.

MALE TEEN: The true story, the bottom line is, if we don't get a handle on the situation now, it's gonna be out of hand, and we gonna be just like LA, and Leon ain't gonna be able to do it, Open Door ain't gonna be able to do it, the police ain't gonna be to it, it's just gonna be like we're livin' in LA if we don't get the situation under control now.

SECOND MALE TEEN: In LA, police die, innocent people die. You can be in your neighborhood, walking down your street, and I just happen to see a gang member drive and you're walkin' by, you gonna get shot.

POLICE OFFICER [talking to gang] Who's second in charge?

MR. BEARDEN: Police Sgt. Dave Dawkins met the same teens on the streets every day. His colleagues called him "Dr. Gang." We asked him to watch the 1989 NewsHour story. Most of the youth we profiled have been jailed at least once in the past four years.

MR. BEARDEN: Do you recognize him?

SGT. DAVE DAWKINS, Denver Police Department: Yeah. That's Daryl. Daryl, I believe, has been indicted or is in prison at this point for selling drugs, cocaine.

MR. BEARDEN: Dawkins believes city officials were slow to acknowledge the power and appeal of gangs.

SGT. DAVE DAWKINS: I really feel that they didn't think that we were the type of city that was going to have these kind of problems, that we had, that we'd never experienced them before, so why should we now?

MR. BEARDEN: But for angry kids like Damon Roberts, Dawkins says the gang lifestyle was immediately attractive.

SGT. DAVE DAWKINS: He took this anger into the gang, and that sort of validated it. You know, it was okay now, so the gangs validated his anger, and they gave him a way to express his anger through violence.

MR. BEARDEN: In the last four years, Denver's gangs have grown fivefold. Weapons arrests for juveniles have gone up 95 percent, violent crimes 60 percent. What happened to Colorado and what happened to Damon Roberts is not unusual. The National Centers for Disease Control say the recent wave of juvenile crime has become a public health crisis. Nationally, the FBI reports the number of juveniles murdered by firearms has increased 80 percent in the past five years, and it's not unusual for teens to be shot more than once. Damon Roberts was shot in a gun fight just six months before he was killed. Rival gang members pulled alongside Roberts' car and sprayed it with 14 bullets. Roberts was hit twice. The driver was killed.

HEALTH CARE WORKER: [in hospital] Stab wound to the leg, gunshot wound to the chest. What was the blood pressure? Over what?

MR. BEARDEN: In the emergency room at Denver General Hospital, Dr. Vince Markovchick says the gunshot victims are getting younger, and for some juveniles, violence has become what he terms "a chronic, recurrent disease."

DR. VINCE MARKOVCHICK, Denver General Hospital: If you or I were shot, for example, we would be very upset, we would be very anxious, we would be very concerned about our own well-being, about what's going to happen to us, are we going to live, are we going to die. Gang members seem to take this as a, a matter of fact kind of thing; it was going to happen to me sooner or later, and so it's happened, so what? It's no big deal.

MR. BEARDEN: Apparently, many teens are just as fatalistic, even non-gang members. This year, a national poll found that one of every three students in high school believe their lives are likely to be cut short by gunfire. Del Elliot, a University of Colorado criminologist, says that kind of attitude can prove deadly.

DEL ELLIOT, Criminologist: I think we have to address the reality that kids value life less, these kinds of kids at least value life less than they did before. I think there's been a real change in the underlying belief system, levels of bonding, the empathy that kids today are bringing with them into these kinds of situations which makes it possible to use a gun. I mean, after all, when you think about taking another person's life, it requires more than just having a gun present. I mean, you are, in fact, going to pull that trigger, and you have some sense of what that means. And it's very clear that kids, particularly in gangs, know that. I mean, if you talk with them, they often say they don't think that they're going to live for another two years. I mean, they've got this very realistic appraisal of what life is like in, in real high violence situations.

MR. BEARDEN: Over the last seven years, Denver has officially declared war on gangs thirteen times. Special police forces were set up to crack down on gangs. Youth initiatives were created, task forces formed, but the violence continued, and then this summer things took a frightening turn when firearm violence spilled out of traditional gang turf. A ten month old baby was hit by a stray bullet at the Denver Zoo. Another random bullet hit a six year old boy as he played outside his home. A twenty-seven year old teacher was killed in a suburban parking lot. A forty-three year old man was shot to death while driving his car only blocks from his home. The shootings continued, and most crimes were gang-related. Even the mayor's empty car was riddle by bullets in front of his home.

MAYOR WELLINGTON WEBB, Denver: The first thing that went through my mind as well as my wife's is that: Are the kids okay? I'm a mayor but I'm also a husband and a parent, and we had children, adults, children at home, and the second thing that went through after finding out everyone was safe is that, if someone would do this to the mayor's car, it also says the lack of respect they have, that they'll do it to anyone.

MR. BEARDEN: The mayor and the city were galvanized. Neighborhoods joined forces to reclaim the streets. The mayor pumped an extra million dollars into beefing up police strength.

MAYOR WELLINGTON WEBB: The biggest issue in America to me is not welfare reform. It's not health care. It's not foreign policy. The issue of America is how we as Americans are going to address the issue of violence in our cities, which to me is the heart of America's soul, and cities are interdependent with the suburbs. You can't have one without the other.

GOV. ROY ROMER, [D] Colorado: [Sept. 7, 1993] The problem is violence. The problem is kids killing kids. The problem is gangs in control of our neighborhoods. The problem is guns in the hands of children.

MR. BEARDEN: Governor Roy Romer thought the problem was so severe that he gathered the Colorado Legislature for a special session on juvenile crime. In five days, lawmakers pushed through a new law that banned teenagers from possessing handguns. The legislature poured millions into a juvenile detention system.

POLICE OFFICER: [arresting teens] Turn around. Put your hands on top of your head. Turn around. Put your fingers together.

MR. BEARDEN: But will Colorado's new gun law and stricter juvenile sentencing slow the escalation of teenage violent crime? Kelly is not optimistic.

MR. BEARDEN: Do you think what happened in the special session will do any good?

REV. LEON KELLY: Until we change the mind sets of these kids behind the guns, then we're not going to see a change in the type of violence. You know, like I'm saying once these kids who feel that they would rather be caught by the police with a gun than to be caught by the rival gun without one, you know, until that changes, you're not gonna see no change.

MR. BEARDEN: That won't be an easy thing to do. Guns have become increasingly popular among gang members and non-gang members alike.

SPOKESPERSON: [at rally] Do you think children should stop killing children?

GROUP: Yes!

MR. BEARDEN: At a Denver rally for stricter gun laws, suburban students said they understood why guns are so popular.

JEFF MEIER: Protect yourself. Everybody else has got a gun, why not you? Someone shoots you, you got to shoot them.

KEVIN MAYS: For protection. Things got so bad, you can't use your bare fists no more to fight, you have to use a gun now.

JEFF MEIER: You go cruising now, you go to the wrong Taco Bell, sometimes people pull a gun on you. It just depends. If they try to act cool in front of their friends, they got a gun, they think they're cool, they think they're bad, you know, they pull it on you.

MR. BEARDEN: Criminologist Elliot says for many teens guns have replaced cars as the new status symbol.

DEL ELLIOT: Somehow it has become fashionable for kids to get guns, to have guns. If we talk to the kids about that, they say, you have to have a gun for protection, they say, the only way I can get respect is if I have a gun. So the whole culture of violence has changed somewhat, and guns are a much more prominent feature of violence today.

MR. BEARDEN: All agreed the crackdown on firearms will only provide part of the solution. Another challenge is to provide alternatives for teens such as Roberts who believed the gang offered something important to his life.

DAMON ROBERTS: [1989] Gangs are like a family, you know, all brothers. If they blood brothers, most likely they stick together. That's the same thing in gangs.

MR. BEARDEN: Kelly says it boils down to self-esteem.

REV. LEON KELLY: He was somebody. Then he became -- he felt that he was able to find his place, you know, in life, and again, it is unfortunate that many of these kids feel like they have to hook up to this type of element to fill those certain, those type of voids in their life.

MR. BEARDEN: But Kelly says Roberts outgrew the thrill of gang life and began to fill trapped in it.

REV. LEON KELLY: He was disappointed at the way he felt that his family felt about him. He felt, you know, that he had let his mom down. He felt that, again, the gang had become such a dominant part of his life that he had really lost control of his, his own identity of that little person inside of him, and he had to portray a certain image in order to be accepted, in order to survive. And I do feel that he did try, you know, the last time, that he felt that his end was near.

MR. BEARDEN: Was it?

REV. LEON KELLY: Yeah, it was.

MR. BEARDEN: Could he have been saved?

SGT. DAVE DAWKINS: It would have been a difficult task. He was so angry, it would have taken the right person for him, somebody who would really need patience to work hard with him. But I think given the right circumstances, given the right program, that he could have been saved because I've seen kids as angry get into the right programs, and they have been turned around.

MR. BEARDEN: Dawkins doesn't think the new legislation will do anything to reach other youths like Damon Roberts.

SGT. DAVE DAWKINS: Obviously, they don't listen to the laws that are being passed or anything, people who are involved in crimes, and not that we shouldn't have tougher penalties for young people who are becoming hard core gang members, but we should also have a balance here and provide them with opportunities to get out of gangs and prevent young people from getting into gangs.

MR. BEARDEN: Solutions, Gov. Roy Romer says, must come from the core of the community.

MR. BEARDEN: Can one state try to address those root causes?

GOV. ROY ROMER: I think one state can do it, except it'd be helpful to have everybody try to support it. But I think that one state can make a great deal of difference, so we're going to pass some laws that are going to help us. We're going to get guns off the street in the hands of kids, but beyond that, we need to go to neighborhoods, to blocks, to houses, and to parents and say, we've got to have a cultural change. We need to shun violence and shun those who use guns, just like we did with drunk driving. It used to be funny to see somebody drive drunk. Now we abhor it; we shun it. We reject you from the community if you drive drunk. I want to have that same cultural change occur on the use of guns.

MR. BEARDEN: Last week, Colorado's new juvenile gun law hit a legal snag when one county judge found part of it unconstitutional. Still, dozens of juveniles throughout the state have been arrested and detained. Gang-related crime continues to rise, and the parents of Damon Roberts say they're doing their best to keep his younger brother away from gangs. NEWSMAKER

MR. LEHRER: And now back to the Attorney General of the United States, Janet Reno. Your Justice Department decided to involve itself in a task force out there in Denver, the situation that we just reported. Is a cultural change possible out there?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: A cultural change is possible everywhere in America if we do it the right way. There were so many messages in that taping just now that talked about stiffer punishment for the confirmed gang member who's committed serious, violent crime, but you've got to have the knowledge that even after that punishment, he's coming back to the community. And unless we provide programs that getting back with a chance of not doing it again, we're just going to be in a revolving door. What is touching are the stories of the anger, the officer suggesting that maybe we couldn't have changed him. But if we had started earlier, we would have a lot better chance of doing it. And it goes back to what the psychologist was talking about in terms of nurturing and bonding, that whole growing up of a child is so important. At each step along the way we've got to reach in and touch that child. We've got to have programs afternoons and in the evenings when that child is six and seven that can get him into constructive pursuits, that can develop and become something that is constructive as he reaches his teenage years, get something that's the modern day equivalent of what Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts used to be for many people so that they can grow in a strong and safe environment. We've got to teach people in authority how to talk to kids. I try when I go to a different community to talk to children either in classes, answering their questions, going to detention facilities, talking to ex-gang members, and the common theme is, if you'd given me something to do after school when I was young, and if you'd given me somebody who knew how to talk to me, who could listen to me, who understand what I face, what I was going through, that would have made a big difference. Working together, we can do this. Lawyers can adopt a block and become the advocate for a thirteen- year-old kid who, if he had a real advocate, could get pulled back from a life of crime and make a difference. Each of us in our own way can make a difference. I'm trying to, to work with a school in the district. Others are tutoring. There are so many people doing so many things, and as the governor said, if we begin with the neighborhood and build in a partnership with states on each neighborhood street by street, family by family, we're going to change the culture. But if we just talk about building prisons, or if we just talk about certain specific points along the way, we're never going to do it.

MR. LEHRER: So it's much more than a law enforcement problem from your point of view.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I saw the beginnings of it as a prosecutor in Dade County for 15 years. I started with the juvenile justice system and realized we'd never have enough money to change all the kids who were that angry and that violent by that time.

MR. LEHRER: But the time you catch 'em, you mean?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Exactly. So we looked at the correlation between drop-outs and delinquency. Working at drop-out prevention at 11, 12, and 13 is too late. Neighborhood intervention at four and five is too late. And then the doctors took me in tow and pointed out that zero to three is the most formative time in a person's life, the time the child learns the concept of reward and punishment and develops a conscience. 50 percent, 50 percent of all learned responses, learned in the first year of life, and yet there are so many children who are neglected and untended during that absolutely critical period, we've got to make sure our parents are old enough, wise enough, and financially able enough to take care of their, their children. I heard a young man today say he hoped to grow up to be -- have a good, strong family and be a good parent and contribute and make a difference. That's as much a way of ending the cultural violence, of prizing the family, of bringing the family back, but doing it in ways where we can provide support and make a difference.

MR. LEHRER: But you're talking about something that involves just about everybody.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Well, that's what's involved in the efforts that we're undertaking. Health & Human Services, the Department of Education, the Department of Labor, HUD, the Department of Justice, and, and the Office of Drug & Narcotics Control Policy are all involved together, trying to fit the pieces of the federal government together in a comprehensive way without the government telling a community what to do but the government saying we want to be a partner with you. On the other end of the line, it's -- as you can see what happened in terms of gangs in Denver, you've watched that whole gang phenomena sweep across the country. I want to make sure --

MR. LEHRER: Other than LA? Came West?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: Exactly.

MR. LEHRER: I mean East.

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: East. And I want to make sure that the law enforcement agencies of the Department of Government -- of the Department of Justice are, are coordinated in an effective way with local law enforcement again as a real partner to share the information as to what's coming and what can be done to prevent it and to use federal resources whenever it's appropriate to back up local law enforcement.

MR. LEHRER: There's a tendency, of course, just to lock up, lock the doors, lock up the neighborhood, and say this is hopeless, you're not going to be able to do anything with these kids. Why are you hopeful?

ATTORNEY GENERAL RENO: I'm hopeful because I see when communities start and involve the community, when police come into the community and seek support from the community in comprehensive programs, that we can make a difference, if we look at the family as a whole, if we look at the child's life as a whole, and if we use common sense in the approach. But we're not going to solve the problem by thinking we can do it overnight. Too much neglect has gone into this for too long now. We've got to solve it in an old- fashioned way. When you raise a child, you love them, you give them guidance, you provide limits, they cross those limits, you punish them, but the punishment fits the violation, and it's carried out when you threaten it. But the key is that after you punish, a good parent will let that child know he's going to continue to be loved and guided. We've got to apply the same principles in a comprehensive way. We threaten punishment. We talk tough sentences. But there are too many people, dangerous offenders, getting out of prison that don't belong on our streets. We talk treatment but we don't provide the treatment and the after care for the drug abuser. If we make sense of what we're doing, we can make a difference.

MR. LEHRER: Janet Reno, thank you very much. CONVERSATION

MS. WARNER: Next tonight, we continue Charlayne Hunter-Gault's conversations from the Middle East in the wake of the PLO-Israeli Accord. Today as part of implementing that accord, Israel began releasing 700 Palestinian prisoners. Earlier this year, Israel allowed a group of exiled Palestinians to return to their homes. Charlayne talked with one of them, the former mayor of the West Bank town of Al-Bireh. This is the first of two conversations we'll present from the West Bank. Israel captured the territory in the 1967 war. But Arabs and Palestinians have never given up their claim to it. Here is Charlayne's report.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: This is the West Bank, land that is contiguous to and occupied by Israel. It's home to over a million Palestinians and to some 120,000 Israeli settlers. The first town we come to is Al-Bireh, twin city to Rumala, two of the four leading Palestinian towns of the West Bank. Al-Bireh is a sprawling, ancient city, dating from the time of the Canaanite, when it was known as the city of wells. It's a mainly residential city of some 40,000, including prosperous business and professional people, as well as refugees living in camps. It also includes an Israeli settlement build on land that Palestinians still claim as their own. Normally Al-Bireh is a bustling town, but on the day we visited, shopkeepers had closed for the one day a month ritual commemoration of the beginning of the Palestinian Intifada, the uprising started six years ago to force Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories. But even as the day long boycott stopped regular commerce, the town was booming in a wave of new construction begun since the signing of the Israeli-PLO Accord. Palestinian businessman Hani Boshua is investing $1 million in this building and is also building another across the street.

HANI BOSHUA, Palestinian Builder: [speaking through interpreter] I hope that development and investment will become more and more. I think this will help the economy. I think the agreement will help the economy.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But not everyone in Al-Bireh shares Hani Boshua's optimism, including the former mayor of Al-Bireh, 60 year old Abdul Jawad Salleh. On December 10, 1973, Salleh was one of eight leading members of the Palestinian community deported by Israel, charged with incitement and trying to undermine security, law and order and normal life, and for advocating cooperation with what was described as Arab terrorist organizations. Salleh was a member of the PLO's National Council as well as a member of the Palestinian National Front formed to coordinate Palestinian society against the occupation and to press for a negotiated solution. After spending 20 years in exile, Salleh was among 15 Palestinians allowed to return this past April as a goodwill gesture, accompanying the resumption of peace talks in Washington. The group arrived in Jericho to a tumultuous hero's welcome. Today, Salleh spends much of his time writing about the current situation in the occupied territory, reunited with his wife, Latisha, in a house where everything was kept for 20 years just as he left it. Five of his six sons are nearby. One, age 16, was killed during a visit to his father in Beirut in 1974. During our conversation about the Israeli-PLO Accord, we spoke first about the pain of exile.

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH, Former Mayor, Al-Bireh: It's terrible. Exile I think is the most, the severest punishment that ever be inflicted on any human being, to be uprooted from your family and your home, from your relatives, from your children, it's just like an olive tree uprooted from the land.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How did you keep heart, mind, and soul together during those 20 years?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: I was, in fact, keeping contact with occupied territories through my search, through articles I wrote in Arabic and in English, and this gave me an impetus to stay alive, continuing struggle by just writing instead of my job and my experience as a builder of my town.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What was family life during that period? You have five sons and a wife. How did you keep family together, or did you?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: They punished me through my children too. After my children get to the age of fifteen years old, they are not permitted to -- they were not permitted to come and visit me, and of course, I was not permitted to see them.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Because they were here.

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: They were here, and I was in exile. So they became real men, sometimes they got married, and they sent me their videos, and instead of being happy when I saw their marriages or their celebrations which accompanied these marriages, I used to cry and weep as if I'm attending their funeral.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: So enter the peace accord between the PLO and the Israelis. How do you feel about it?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: Well, I'm a staunch supporter of compromise, peaceful compromise, a peaceful settlement between Palestinians and the Israelis, and as such, in fact, I was banished into exile because I initiated a call here in the occupied territories before being deported for a two-state solution. So I don't need, in fact, this is my experience that the Israelis are not for creating a just and comprehensive peace. And this has a long history really. When the Palestinian leadership in 1948 tried to come back to Palestine, establish a Palestinian state which was stopped by the British and Ben Gorian, the Zionist movement, the head of the Zionist movement at that time, and some Arab leaders, and they decided that no Palestinian state would be ever established. Now, they, they accepted this formula which I don't believe would lead to any real peace. It's -- I believe it might bring about the new form of an apartheid state which is Israel now and bantustans and ghettos in the Palestinian field. For example, the agreement stipulates that all military laws initiated by and restated by the MITI governors should be discussed between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and in this case, I mean, the Israelis might say, no, we'll not permit you this or that. They will not give -- the Palestinians were not given a free hand even in the economic side of the agreement.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Are there other things that are worrying you about this accord?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: Of course, the accord deletes or denies the right for self-determination, deletes or denies the question of Jerusalem, deletes and denies the right of return to the Palestinian refugees who, who were really forcefully expelled and transferred by force by the Israelis in 14748 and in 67.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Tell me about the West Bank and how the attitude of Palestinians in the West Bank differ from say Palestinians in Gaza and in Jericho, because I'm told that the real concern is the land in this part of the country. Can you help me with that.

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: Well, in fact, the goals of the Israelis by establishing these settlements was really meant to stop any peaceful solution, to block the possibility of creating a homogenous Palestinian entity, and each Palestinian concentration should be dissected, dismembered from the other part. So you could see if you go around that these settlements are besieging Nablus area, for example, and dividing Nablus area from Ramula Al-Bireh area. And as such, I mean, you don't have any contiguity between these Palestinian habitations. This is mainly to block any homogenous entity of, of a Palestinian nature.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Do you think the fact that this agreement has not taken up the issue of the West Bank and other contiguous areas, how much of a problem is that going to be ultimately?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: Taking into consideration the racist convictions of these settlers, denying the existence of a Palestinian people, I mean, they could any time block the road between Jerusalem and Al-Bireh, between Al-Bireh and Nablus, between Nablus and Tukarem, and really the people will find themselves besieged in these ghettos or these bantustans, and this is what I, I say, that there will be an apartheid and bantustans on the other side. This is maybe the time bomb which will undermine what they call this peace process.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: What do you think when you look over at the Israeli settlements there on land that once belonged to you?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: Could you imagine somebody who would come one day at your home and tell you get out of it, this is my home, regardless of from where he came, regardless of his religious convictions, regardless of anything, and he just tells you that this is my home, you should get out of it? This is exactly the feeling. The feeling of that woman from Iniabut who just last week was killed because she went to her own orchard, picking up some of her things, and a settler came and shot her cold bloodedly. I mean, it's impossible. Somebody grabs your land, your home, and tells you that I was given this home and this land which my father, my ancestors thousands of years ago were living here, were working on this land, and this settler from Moscow or from the United States or from whatever comes and tells you, no, this is my home, this is my land.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Do you think you'll ever get your land back?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: I'm sure. I mean, my feeling that I will return to my home, and I once wrote a piece of poetry -- I'm not a poet -- but I just wrote it when my youngest child was three years ago all the time was asking his mother when my father will come back -- I sent him a letter that I'll block the ray of the sun, I'll blow the wind, but son, I'll come and I came. And I believe that this land will come back to me because I am the owner. I am the farmer of it.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Do you think it will be in our lifetime?

ABDUL JAWAD SALLEH: I wish I could see it return back to me. And I am hopeful, really optimistic about it.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Well, Abdul Jawad Salleh, thank you.

MR. LEHRER: Tomorrow Charlayne talks to an Israeli settler living in the West Bank. RECAP

MS. WARNER: Again, the main story of this Monday, Attorney General Reno said on the NewsHour that National Guard troops will not patrol the streets of Washington, D.C. She said they may be used to help police with other duties. Washington's mayor had sought administration approval to assign guard troops to the city's anti-crime effort. Good night, Jim.

MR. LEHRER: Good night, Margaret. We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim Lehrer. Thank you, and good night.