The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour

MR. LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer in Washington.

MR. MAC NEIL: And I'm Robert MacNeil in New York. After our News Summary tonight, the House approaches a historic vote on term limits, Newfoundland's premier and others discuss the fishing rights war between Canada and Europe, and Charlayne Hunter-Gault reports on conditions in Haiti as the U.S. prepares to hand over to the United Nations. NEWS SUMMARY

MR. LEHRER: The House will vote tonight on a constitutional amendment limiting terms for members of Congress. It's a key part of the Republican Contract With America. Four versions will be considered. All would set a two-term, twelve-year limit on Senators. One would place a six-year limit in the House. This afternoon, Speaker Newt Gingrich said at least half the Democrats would have to back the amendment for House passage. Meanwhile, on the House floor, the debate continued.

REP. ROSCOE BARTLETT, [R] Maryland: We need to respect the wishes of our constituents and vote today for term limits and send this to the states. There, the dialogue will continue in the state legislatures. There will be ample opportunity to debate, and ultimately, the will of an even more enlightened electorate will prevail.

REP. JOHN TANNER, [D] Tennessee: An attempt to diminish the right of an American citizen's access, unrestricted access, to the ballot box in a free country is wrong. It's not only wrong, it's dangerous. These people are asking us to vote today to take away from an American citizen whom through the years people have fought and died to protect, defend, and honor, take away your right as an American citizen to vote for whomever you wish, whenever you wish, for as long as you wish.

MR. LEHRER: We'll have extended excerpts of today's debate later in the program. Democratic Sen. Howell Heflin of Alabama said today he will not run for re-election next year. He's the fourth Senate Democrat to announce his retirement. The Senate today rejected the House-passed bill that would freeze all new federal regulations for one year. Instead, it unanimously passed a measure allowing Congress to review new regulations on a case-by-case basis. Both measures now go to a House-Senate conference to iron out the differences. Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: In economic news sales of new homes plunged 14 percent last month to the lowest level in three years. The Commerce Department reported that sales fell in every region of the country and were down 28 percent in the West. President Clinton convened the economic conference today in Atlanta. It's the first of four regional events scheduled for this year. Today's meeting focused on the South, but the President took the opportunity to lay out what he called some of the accomplishments of his first two years in office. He spoke at Atlanta's Emory University.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: We've had over 6 million new jobs in this economy, and 1993 was the best year in American history for small businesses and start-ups. The combined rate of unemployment and inflation is at a 25-year low. Now, the challenge for America is whether or not even in the midst of all of our economic triumphs and when we are the world's only military superpower we can preserve the American dream for all of our people. That is the great challenge. And that's why we're working now in Washington to continue what we've been doing for the last two years but also to focus on things like the middle class bill of rights, the education tax deduction, more training for workers who are unemployed or underemployed, raising the minimum wage, working on welfare reform, things we think will raise incomes and bring people together again.

MR. MAC NEIL: Officials from 12 states and several business leaders participated in today's forum. Speaker of the House Newt gingrich had this to say about the economic conference.

REP. NEWT GINGRICH, Speaker of the House: It'll be terrific if the President came back to Washington with a number of positive ideas to help entrepreneurs. In fact, he might decide he'd like to favor our tax cuts next week after he talks to enough entrepreneurs, so my guess is if you polled the people who will be in the conference, the vast majority of them would be glad to explain to the President that cutting capital gains, building new factories, helping found new companies are good things, and it would be nice if the President would support policies that favor that.

MR. MAC NEIL: Major League baseball players voted today to end their seven and a half month strike if a federal judge issues an injunction against the owners tomorrow. The injunction, requested by the National Labor Relations Board, would restore salary arbitration and free agent bidding. As of now, the season is scheduled to begin April 2nd with replacement players. In a ruling that could impact universities across the country a federal judge said today that Brown University is discriminating against its female athletes. They had sued the Ivy League school under a federal law that prohibits gender bias at schools receiving federal funds. The university offers an equal number of varsity sports for both sexes, but male varsity athletes outnumber women athletes two to one. The judge gave Brown 120 days to come up with a solution.

MR. LEHRER: Two human rights groups issued a report today criticizing the United States' role in Haiti. Human Rights Watch America and the National Coalition for Haitian Refugees said the new police force was made up mostly of former soldiers, many of whom participated in the 1991 coup to oust Haiti's current president, Jean Bertrand Aristide. The U.S. embassy in Haiti denied those allegations. A supporter of the coup was assassinated yesterday in Port-au-Prince. Members of the FBI arrived in the capital today to investigate the murder of the former chief of staff of Haiti's military government. President Clinton will visit Haiti this Friday to witness the transfer of power from U.S. to U.N. forces. We'll have more on Haiti later in the program.

MR. MAC NEIL: Secretary of State Christopher today defended U.S. ties with Russia, although he criticized Russia's military campaign in the breakaway republic of Chechnya. He also sounded a warning about Iran. Christopher spoke at Indiana University.

WARREN CHRISTOPHER, Secretary of State: [Bloomington, Indiana] Russia is a neighbor of Iran, and I feel that we'll rue the day it cooperated with this terrorist state if Iran turns around and builds nuclear weapons for its own purposes with the benefit of Russian expertise and Russian equipment. Russia should take note of the fact that no major industrial democracy cooperates with Iran on nuclear matters. It is simply too dangerous to do so.

MR. MAC NEIL: Christopher said, "We will continue to work with Russia where our interests coincide," and he urged Congress not to cut aid to Moscow. More than 300 American and European civilians left Burundi today. They were encouraged to leave voluntarily because of increased violence between Tutsi and Hutu tribes in the Central African nation. France today rejected a U.S. call for tougher U.N. sanctions against Libya. The U.S. has proposed a worldwide embargo on Libyan oil. It's an attempt to pressure Libya to turn over two suspects in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988. The U.N. will review existing sanctions against Libya this Friday.

MR. LEHRER: The U.S. army will discipline nine instructors in the deaths of four rangers last month. The soldiers died of hypothermia during training in Florida swamps. Major Gen. John Hendrix said today the nine would be disciplined for errors in judgment but would not face criminal action. He said the sanctions could range from a letter of reprimand to removal from duty.

MR. MAC NEIL: That's it for the News Summary. Now it's on to the term limits vote, the fishing wars, and a Haiti update. FOCUS - TERM LIMITS

MR. LEHRER: Later tonight, the House will vote on another key piece of the Republican Contract With America, a constitutional amendment that would limit the number of terms a member of Congress can serve. Kwame Holman has our report.

KWAME HOLMAN: The House of Representatives is considering four different plans to limit the terms of United States Senators and Representatives.

REP. CHARLES CANADY, [R] Florida: Mr. Chairman, this is truly an historic day. Since the convening of the first Congress on March 4, 1789, more than 180 term limit proposals have been introduced in the Congress. Until today, however, there has never been a debate or vote on a term limits measure in the United States House of Representatives. Today's debate is long overdue.

MR. HOLMAN: But none of the plans appears to have the 290 votes needed to amend the Constitution. The great majority of House Democrats oppose term limits.

REP. SONNY MONTGOMERY, [D] Mississippi: Now, Mr. Chairman, I'm working on a two-year contract with the people of the third district of Mississippi. They have chosen to renew that contract over the years. They should continue to have that right without having a term limitation imposed upon them.

REP. JOHN CONYERS, [D] Michigan: Term limits are the worst possible example of cheap bumper sticker politics run amok. We spend enough time kicking ourselves in the face and looking to other branches of government to solve our problems. And I say to my friends, on both sides of the aisle, let's stop wasting time with these procedural distractions and return to the business of running the country and improving the lives of the citizens that we claim to represent.

MR. HOLMAN: And despite being an integral part of the Contract With America, term limits don't even have unanimous Republican support.

REP. JOHN PORTER, [R] Illinois: Today, over half the House of Representatives has served less than four years. Congress is today a dynamic body, responsive to the people, without changing the Constitution. Those who today urge support for term limits have it wrong. The founders who debated term limits extensively in 1787 got it right the first time: Leave it to the people.

REP. TOBY ROTH, [R] Wisconsin: I'm going to be voting for term limits today, but that doesn't mean I'm in favor of term limits. The reason I'm voting for term limits is because we have a Contract With America, and I signed the contract, and I don't want to renege on my word.

MR. HOLMAN: In all, some 40 House Republicans are expected to vote against term limits, and that has left term limits supporters searching across the aisle to get the additional votes they need.

REP. RAY LaHOOD, [R] Illinois: Where are the Democrats? We need you! We need you today! It takes 290 votes. Twenty-two states, many of the states that you all come from, have passed term limits. Why don't you get the message? Many of these people are Democrats in these 22 states. They need for you to come to the floor today and support the vast majority of Republicans that will vote for term limits. Don't snub your nose at your people!

MR. HOLMAN: The plan likely to receive the support of the most Democrats would make 12-year term limits on Senators and Representatives retroactive, meaning many of the members now in Congress could not run for reelection if and when term limits became part of the Constitution.

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ, [D] Illinois: Last week I heard about tough love. Well, this week I want to offer some of the same kind of tough love to my Republican friends who are having a tough time kicking the congressional habit. If you love this place, tough, vote for term limits that are retroactive. If you've been here 12 years, you're out.

MR. HOLMAN: One of the sponsors of the retroactive plan is Michigan Democrat John Dingell. At one point today, debate came to a halt when Ohio Republican Martin Hoke singled out Dingell.

REP. MARTIN HOKE, [R] Ohio: I had a specific conversation with the gentleman from Michigan, and he stated to me very clearly that it is his, it is his intention to vote against this bill on final. Now if that, if that is not a cynical manipulation and exploitation of the American public, then what is? What could be more cynical? What could be more hypocritical? What could possibly --

REP. JOHN DINGELL, [D] Michigan: Mr. Speaker, I ask -- I ask that the gentleman's words be taken down.

SPOKESMAN: The gentleman will suspend.

REP. MARTIN HOKE: I would like a unanimous consent to withdraw the word "hypocritical."

REP. JOHN DINGELL: What about the word "cynical?"

REP. MARTIN HOKE: In reference to you directly, Mr. Dingell, yes, "cynical."

REP. JOHN DINGELL: Did the gentleman also wish to apologize?

REP. MARTIN HOKE: No, I did not.

REP. JOHN DINGELL: Did not wish to apologize. Then I object.

MR. HOLMAN: The House sat in limbo for nearly 40 minutes as the House parliamentarian struggled with the matter and members voted on whether to proceed with debate. Finally, Hoke relented.

REP. MARTIN HOKE: There was no intent on my part, not now, not during the debate, and not in the future to make comments that would be taken personally by you in an offensive way. And to whatever extent you perceived them in that way, I am sorry, and I apologize.

REP. JOHN DINGELL: If the gentleman will yield.

REP. MARTIN HOKE: I'd be happy to yield.

REP. JOHN DINGELL: I accept the apologies of the gentleman, and I thank him.

MR. HOLMAN: The debate resumed, and for the remainder of the afternoon members for and against term limits continued to push the logic behind their position.

REP. BOB INGLIS, [R] South Carolina: 80 percent of the American people want term limits. They told you that. They tell you every town meeting. They tell you in every poll taken in your district. Who are you speaking for? The 20 percent. They've given you a message. They want to limit you.

REP. HENRY HYDE, [R] Illinois: With a revolving-door Congress, where will we get our Everett Dirksens, our Scoop Jacksons, our Arthur Vandenburgs, our Hubert Humphreys, our Barry Goldwaters, our Sam Irvins? You don't get 'em out of the phone book. Where did Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Rabin get the self-confidence to negotiate peace for their people with the PLO? I'll tell you where, experience, bloody, bloody experience. I just can't be an accessory to the dumbing down of democracy, and I think that's what this is.

MR. HOLMAN: Late this afternoon, the proposal to make term limits retroactive was defeated easily. Debate on the three remaining proposals was expected to go on well into the night.

MR. LEHRER: Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, an international dispute over fishing and how things are going in Haiti. FOCUS - FISH STORY

MR. MAC NEIL: Next tonight, a battle of international law and natural resources. The issue is fish and the right to catch them, and it's a problem with worldwide economic and environmental ramifications. Just now, however, the focus is on a simmering dispute between Canada and the European Union. The first salvo in this international battle was fired on March 9th, when Canada seized the Spanish vessel, the Estai. It had been trawling for turbot on the outer edge of the Grand Banks off Newfoundland, about 22 nautical miles outside Canada's 200 mile coastal limit. The so- called "nose and tail" of the Grand Banks are fish breeding grounds that the Canadians have declared off limits.

FERNAND ROBICHAUD, Department of State, Canada: We will not back away from enforcing the proper conservation measures on the nose and tail of the Grand Banks.

MR. MAC NEIL: Canada acknowledges that it acted unilaterally but says it can't wait for another species of fish to disappear. The outer banks were once home to cod, which was nearly wiped out by overfishing. As a result, nearly 50,000 fishermen and fish plant workers are unemployed in Newfoundland alone. With a moratorium now on cod fishing, the fleets have turned to turbot, the main ingredient of fish sticks. That species is also on the decline, and Europeans are being blamed.

FRANK GILKIE, Canadian Fisherman: First they destroy their own waters. Now they're over here trying ours. But they dragged the Grand Banks, and, I mean, you get that many big boats dragging back and forth on one spot, it's got to destroy the bottom.

MR. MAC NEIL: Last week, the Estai, freed after its owners posted a $355,000 bond, was welcomed back to its home port, but the dispute escalated on Sunday, when the Canadians cut the nets of another Spanish trawler and chased two others through thick fog, again just outside the territorial waters off Newfoundland.

LUIS ATIENZA, Fisheries Minister, Spain: We are proposing that the European Union responds strongly and firmly and with solidarity.

MR. MAC NEIL: The European Union did respond. Its fisheries commissioner accused Canada of international piracy and outlaw behavior.

EMMA BONINO, Fisheries Commissioner, European Union: The Grand Banks have been turned into some sort of a Far West, with one state acting as the only self-appointed lawmaker, sheriff, and judge.

MR. MAC NEIL: Emma Bonino traded barbs at the United Nations on Monday with Canada's fisheries minister, Brian Tobin. Yesterday he one-upped her at a press conference on a barge in New York's East River across from the United Nations.

BRIAN TOBIN, Fisheries Minister, Canada: These stocks are endangered. They must be left alone. They must be allowed to rebuild.

MR. MAC NEIL: Tobin showed reporters fishing nets he says were confiscated from the Estai on March 9th. Gaps in the net measured only about 100 millimeters, smaller than the 130 millimeter requirement which, as these pictures show, allows small fish to escape and replenish the stocks. On top of that, officials showed that the net contained an illegal liner of an even finer mesh.

CLYDE WELLS, Premier, Newfoundland: It's only use of this kind of abusive nets that permits people to fish economically, because they take everything out of the sea.

BRIAN TOBIN: Canada remains, as it always has, extremely eager to come to a negotiated settlement to this bilateral dispute that has always been our preference.

MR. MAC NEIL: The European Union has begun negotiations with Canada. Meanwhile, Spain has filed suit against Canada in the world court which Canada says does not have jurisdiction in the matter. The British today broke ranks with the European Union and refused to join a call for trade sanctions against Canada, but in Spain, the Canadian action has outraged citizens in the home port of the spanish trawler seized off Newfoundland. Judy Aslett of Independent Television News reports.

JUDY ASLETT, Independent Television News: The picturesque town of Vigo on the West Coast of Spain: a community where fishing is not so much an industry but a way of life. A fifth of the population here earn their living from the fishing trade, the ships and trawlers coming into the harbor every day, off-loading their catch which is destined to keep the economy of this town alive. The Canadian accusations that some Spanish vessels are fishing illegally has hit this community hard. The fishermen already feel let down by their own Spanish government for agreeing to the European Community's de-commissioning program. The latest row with the Canadians is seen as another unfair attack on them designed to undermine their profession and take away their livelihoods.

UNIDENTIFIED FISHERMAN: [speaking through interpreter] It's very bad. The future's black for us.

SECOND UNIDENTIFIED FISHERMAN: [speaking through interpreter] The European Community is a fairy tale. They just damage Spain.

MS. ASLETT: The allegations against the Spanish fishermen center on their long distance trawlers. The crew of the Estai, which returned from Canada only last week, were accused yesterday by the Canadian fishing minister, Brian Tobin, of using small mesh nets to catch undersized fish. It's an allegation hotly denied today by the ship's owners.

JOSE ENRIQUE PEREIRA, Owner, "Estai": These nets are very different to our nets. These nets are from the middle age, and these are the modern nets that are used by the Spanish vessels. The Spanish vessels are very modern and perhaps, I don't know, Canadian vessels use this kind of net. I don't know.

MS. ASLETT: So are you saying the Canadians are lying?

JOSE ENRIQUE PEREIRA: Of course.

MS. ASLETT: The idea that Spanish fishermen are being falsely accused by the international community has also been picked up by Vigo's politicians. Today the town's mayor held a snap press conference in support of the entire Spanish fishing fleet which he claims is only being attacked because other countries are unable to compete with it.

MAYOR CARLOS PRINCIPE, Vigo: [speaking through interpreter] We've got the best fishermen, the best ships, the best marketing industry. Because they don't want to compete with that, because they're not able to compete, they look for other ways to put us out of business.

MS. ASLETT: But at Vigo's fishing market today, we did see some undersized fish. This hake is well below the length accepted by the European Community. "Yes," says this woman, "we know they are small, but what can we do?" There's a strong sense of defiance in the town here that the Spanish fishermen are right and the rest of the world is wrong not to support them. That feeling is likely to grow as the Spanish take their case against the Canadians to the international court. It's there, they say, that the fishermen here will be vindicated.

MR. MAC NEIL: Now a discussion of the issues raised by the current dispute. Clyde Wells is the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador. Matthew Gianni is an international fisheries campaigner for the environmental group Greenpeace. Previously he worked as a commercial fisherman on the East and West Coasts. William Burke is a professor of law at the University of Washington in Seattle and author of the book The New International Law of Fisheries. We invited a representative from the European Union, but they declined to join us. Premier Wells, looking at that last report from Spain, how do you respond to the charge of the Spanish owners that, that it's a Canadian lie that they were using too fine a mesh in their nets?

CLYDE WELLS, Premier, Newfoundland: Well, Canada produced the actual net that the vessel Estai cut when she was trying to escape. It was shown in New York yesterday, so it's very clear that their position is not accurate on the issue, as is their suggestion that Canada is somehow trying to get access to the fishery for its own interest and not -- this is not a conservation measure. They might have some basis for credibility if, in fact, Canada were fishing it. But Canada has had the virtual prohibition of any kind of fishing of ground fish stocks in the area for up to two years now. During that same period of time, the European Union, or really Spain and Portugal acting under the auspices of the European Union, have increased the level of fishing activity and the number of vessels fishing out there year after year. So, clearly, their position is incorrect. I think the whole world knows that Canada doesn't fabricate evidence that way.

MR. MAC NEIL: What about the bigger charge that was leveled by the European Union's minister of fisheries, that seizing a ship in international waters or cutting nets on another is piracy, a clear violation of international law?

PREMIER WELLS: Well, there have been other examples of violation of international law by that standard in the past. Britain nearly 200 years ago, offended by what they saw with other nations of the world seizing innocent people on the Coast of Africa and taking them across the Atlantic Ocean to be slaves, sent the Royal Navy down off the West Coast of Africa to seize those ships and stop that kind of action. Clearly, Britain was, was acting in the best interest of mankind. Now, I realize there's a difference between human beings and fish, but the principle is precisely the same. The Spanish and Portuguese are out their fishing tiny fish that long, years before they have an opportunity to breed, while the Newfoundland fishermen, Canadian fishermen generally have been prohibited from fishing in the area, and they're prepared to accept that in order to have some kind of a future. But it's impossible for them not to fish and see Spain and Portugal out there fishing those stocks to extinction. They've already commercially destroyed the northern cod stock and some of the flounder species, the American place and yellowtail.

MR. MAC NEIL: Prof. Burke, how do you see this as a matter of, as a question of international law, the seizure of the ship and the cutting of the nets in international waters?

WILLIAM BURKE, University of Washington: Well, I think the seizure of the ship is probably ahead of the curve in international law right now, that is, there is general international agreement that does not provide for enforcement. But they are now negotiating the generic problem that's evidenced by this latest conflict in New York at this very moment, and unless that negotiation results in a satisfactory agreement, what Canada has done in this instance will probably become customary.

MR. MAC NEIL: What do you see, just on the point of existing international law, Mr. Gianni?

MATTHEW GIANNI, Greenpeace: Well, what Canada done is a clear violation of international law, but at the same time, you have to recognize that the law of the sea, or international law as currently articulated in the law of the sea has done very little to prevent continued and relentless overfishing, fish stock collapse, and basically putting people out of business, so internationallaw hasn't worked up till now.

MR. MAC NEIL: But what about the, the -- international law hasn't worked, but does that justify violating international law because - - for the reasons that Premier Wells has just given?

MR. GIANNI: No, we don't think so. What we do think needs to be done is a negotiated settlement overall for the issue of these kinds of fisheries, and negotiations in New York that got underway on Monday is just the type of forum that we need to bring these issues into a negotiated solution.

PREMIER WELLS: There's an additional point that ought to be considered also, and I'm sure Prof. Burke would confirm this. International law is not declared by some congress or some parliament sitting on high as a world body, establishing the laws. International law is developed as one nation or a group of nations takes some action to deal with a matter that's not presently provided for in international law. And when a sufficient number of nations adopt this and accept this as an acceptable approach, it becomes customary international law. But it takes a courageous act of some nation to lead the way first. That's what Britain did in the case of the slaves. That's what Canada is doing now. That's what President Truman did with his Truman Proclamation to protect fish stock on the high seas in 1945. Just read the Truman Proclamation and substitute government of Canada for government of the United States, and you have all of the authority you need for Canada to act as it did.

MR. MAC NEIL: Mr. Gianni.

MR. GIANNI: Well, I think what Canada is doing is firing the first round of shots in the next round of negotiating out to grab more ocean space. Basically, the cod wars between Iceland and the UK back in the 1970s were the first shots fired in the eventual extinction of maritime jurisdiction from twelve out to two hundred miles. And there's a danger in what Canada is doing now, and the danger is that there are any number of countries around the world that seek all that international waters out there, all that open and free space, and they're just waiting for the right moment to grab it. Now, is that going to solve the world's fisheries' problems? We don't think so. The fact that countries extended out to 200 miles in the first place back in the 1970s has not prevented fisheries from being overfished, has not prevented the intensive and increasing and relentless exploitation of the world's oceans for fish, and has not prevented the kinds of stock collapses that have taken place off Eastern Canada.

MR. MAC NEIL: Premier Wells, is that Canada's purpose, to extend its jurisdiction beyond 200 miles?

PREMIER WELLS: Absolutely not. The government of Canada has stated time and again, the minister of fisheries and oceans did so yesterday at the U.N., stated very clearly Canada does not want to extend its jurisdiction, and I can tell you with absolute certainty from my discussions with the prime minister and other members of the government of Canada, Canada doesn't want to be out beyond the 200 miles. It doesn't want the responsibility of protecting these fish stocks for the rest of mankind. This is not alone for Canada's interest. Canada isn't fishing those stocks at the moment. This is for the conservation not alone for Canada's future economic interest but to protect those stocks from mankind. We would sooner that it was an international agency that did it, but absent an effective international agency, Canada as the contiguous coastal state not only has a right in terms of protecting its own future economic interests but I believe has a responsibility to the rest of the nations of the world to take the kind of steps that are necessary to conserve those stocks against their commercial extinction until such time as the international community is prepared to take responsibility.

MR. MAC NEIL: Prof. Burke, are you concerned, as Mr. Gianni is, that this may be the first shot in an effort by many countries to extend their jurisdiction and grab larger pieces of the ocean and say that they control that?

PROF. BURKE: Well, it may happen that the negotiations that are now going on in New York do not end up successfully. One thing that ought to be noted here is that there is an international organization specifically established to deal with the precise area we're talking about here and which has made decisions in the past about establishing quotas. There were no quotas on turbot, or Greenland halibut, which is what the argument here is about, before this year, but there was a quota established in January with respect to -- and most of that was allocated to Canada. The European Union objected, as it is allowed to do under the treaty, and therefore went on ahead with allowing Spain and Portugal to fish on this side. By the way, it should be remembered here that the reason Spain and Portugal, part of the reason Spain and Portugal are fishing on this side of the Atlantic is because they're not allowed to fish in the European Union waters. So this benefits the European Union considerably, by excluding Spain and Portugal from their own waters, and the result is that they've spread around the world. One of the main reasons for the pressure in the Northwest Atlantic now is because the Spanish fleet was excluded from waters off Namibia and the Southeast Atlantic. This is a very complicated problem. And I have no doubt that there will be efforts at expanding jurisdiction, and unless states are able to reach an agreement satisfactorily in New York, that's what's going to happen. It has happened before, as Matt Gianni pointed out. We attempted to solve the freedom of fishing problem many years ago, and in the 1982 convention on the law of the sea by establishing a 200 mile zone. It hasn't worked satisfactorily even within 200 miles, and now we know that it -- there will have to be other arrangements which may or may not be successful for dealing with the fish which are found both inside 200 and outside.

MR. MAC NEIL: Mr. Gianni, how serious is this problem worldwide, and how -- and what is the solution to that problem?

MR. GIANNI: Well, the problem, unfortunately, is very serious. And what we're seeing off Eastern Canada is not unique. It's basically an example of a much broader problem. The United Nations Food & Agriculture Organization estimates that 70 percent of fish stocks worldwide are either fully exploited, over-exploited, or have been depleted. They estimate that something like between seventeen and thirty-nine million tons of fish gets thrown back over the side of fishing boats dead into the water because they don't want the catch. The FAO also --

MR. MAC NEIL: They don't want the catch because they're looking for another kind of fish?

MR. GIANNI: They're looking for another kind of species, or the fish they've caught is too small, and the gear, the fishing gear that they're using is not sufficiently selective. The FAO also estimates that there are approximately one million large-scale fishing vessels out there plying the world's oceans, and that this fleet is losing an estimated $54 billion a year. It's an economic disaster. The main thing keeping them afloat was --

MR. MAC NEIL: Why is it losing that kind of money?

MR. GIANNI: Well, because the value of the fish that they're catching does not cover the costs to these boats to actually go out and catch them, and so they're losing money not only in terms of operating costs, but they're also losing money in terms of lost return on capital invested in the fishing fleets. And what's keeping them afloat in the FAO's words is massive government subsidies and other forms of government support. Now, when we talk about fish, we're talking about fish the ocean's marine biodiversity. There was a recent meeting of the National Science Council, I believe, which concluded that overfishing is the single most important contributor -- is having the single largest impact on marine biodiversity in the oceans today. At the same time, fish provide food for hundreds of millions of people worldwide, so we're talking about something that's very essential. The problem is serious. What happens when that fish goes away?

MR. MAC NEIL: So what is the solution to that?

MR. GIANNI: Well, there's no one solution that's going to work in every fishery in every part of the world, but we're certainly - - Greenpeace is advancing a framework of solutions at the United Nations conference here this week and other forums. First of all, fisheries conservation has to be given an absolute priority. Currently under international law, as well as national legislation here in the U.S., you can compromise conservation on the basis of short-term economic interests. And that has to be de-linked. Conservation has to be a priority, and it must be put first. Secondly, you've got to reduce the number of boats that are out there fishing, particularly the large boats. That's going to mean some very hard choices on the part of governments in terms of jobs and lost revenue, but in the end, it's the only thing that's going to really ensure that a lot of these depleted stocks are --

MR. MAC NEIL: That is the de-commissioning that that European report referred to?

MR. GIANNI: Precisely, precisely.

MR. MAC NEIL: Mr. Wells, what is the Canadian policy on the, on pursuing conservation by limiting the number of boats and so on?

PREMIER WELLS: Canada has been prepared and has, in fact, put conservation first. In the process of doing that, it's put 30,000 people in Newfoundland alone out of work, many thousands more in Nova Scotia and Quebec and so on, so we put conservation first. We're prepared to pay this price. What we can't tolerate is to be prepared to pay that price and to do it and see other nations fish the same stocks to extinction that we're not allowed to fish. Conservation must come first, Mr. Gianni is absolutely correct, because if we don't do that, we only have a future of a very few short years before there's nothing left to fish anyway. So conservation has to be a priority.

MR. MAC NEIL: Prof. Burke, what hope do you have that this is going to lead to some more dedicated effort to solve this problem internationally?

PROF. BURKE: Well, the dedicated efforts are underway right now, and there have been negotiations that are going on in New York, and this is the third year of those. This is a very complicated problem involving very sensitive interests, so whether that will be successful or not I have no way of telling. I'm fairly pessimistic about it, because I don't believe they've dealt with the enforcement question which is the basic issue here satisfactorily. There have been agreements in the past that -- the one that's applicable in the Northwest Atlantic has not been successful recently because of the European Union, essentially. But a recent agreement by the United States, the Russian Federation, and Japan, and a number of other countries dealing with the problem in the Central Bering Sea has been successful thus far, so it is possible to negotiate these on a regional basis. And I suspect that's the way it's going to have to be.

MR. MAC NEIL: Okay.

PROF. BURKE: There may be some areas of the world where they reach agreements and others will be more difficult. That's the way they have to go, and that's the way the negotiations are proceeding in New York right now.

MR. MAC NEIL: That's the way we have to go now too. Gentlemen, thank you all. FOCUS - FRIGHTFUL CLIMATE?

MR. LEHRER: Finally tonight, a look at how democracy is doing in Haiti. On Friday, President Clinton will be in Port-au-Prince for a ceremony that will leave the United Nations, not the United States, in charge of peacekeeping. Charlayne Hunter-Gault has just returned from Haiti. Here's her update report.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Young Haitian men and women training to become the new force for stability in Haiti in the future, to take over after all outside forces have left Haiti in the hands of the Haitians. This training program is a part of the American promise to help bring security and stability to Haiti.

UNIDENTIFIED YOUNG HAITIAN MAN: That is very important for the Haitian people because what I'm taking here, I'm going to use just to help my country.

SPOKESMAN: We have a small change in your curriculum.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: It is run by the U.S. Justice Department, and it includes classes in law, human rights, and police conduct, as well as physical training. But this force, expected eventually to be some 3,000 strong, won't be ready for months and will not be fully operational until almost a year from now. And on the eve of the major U.S. force withdrawal, there is growing anxiety among Haitians about what will happen to the fragile security floor that the American-led forces have created when they hand off the main responsibility for maintaining that security to the United Nations this week. The U.S. also helped create and train the interim police force on duty until the new force is trained Until now, the police were attached to the Haitian army and was notorious for human rights abuses. Some 4,000 civilians were killed during the three- year military rule, and some quarter of a million Haitians fled underground in fear. A recent human rights report is highly critical of even the interim force and how the U.S. chose it, but U.S. officials insist that these men were investigated and cleared of such abuses. Even though U.S. teams keep a tight rein on them, many Haitians and others remain suspicious. The Haitian force complains that they are not being equipped to do the job expected of them.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: We have a lot of problems, and I must tell you this car here is in very bad shape, and we have to cover the whole town here -- and this car cannot do all the job.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: A few miles up the road in the small farming village of Violet, anxieties about security are running high. They worry that the bad guys still have the guns and are biding their time until all the outside forces have left. It is back in the hills in remote villages of Haiti that feelings of insecurity are greatest. Only this week, two local men were found murdered in a gas station nearby. No one knows if they were political killings but they feed the fear anyway, fear that is palpable in remote enclaves like this. Jean Raymond Zulme who is 20 years old, remembered what happened to him last October after celebrating the return of Aristide by dancing in the street, with the president's picture held over his head. He told us how armed men came to the camp, took him to jail, and beat him. The scars from the beating remain on his body and in his head.

JEAN RAYMOND ZULME: [speaking through interpreter] The men that were responsible for my beating are still around here.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Does that frighten you?

JEAN RAYMOND ZULME: [speaking through interpreter] Well, they said they won't kill us.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: The U.S. forces collected some 30,000 guns, but according to some estimates, there are still some 200,000 out there somewhere, and they are worried that they'll be used again against the people.

NECKER DESSABLE, Peace and Justice Commission: Many of those people who are still with their arms are those who were the authors of the violations.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Necker Dessable is the highly respected head of Peace and Justice, the human rights arm of the Catholic Church.

NECKER DESSABLE: What we hoped in the beginning was that the multinational force when they came and they were welcomed by the Haiti people, we thought that they were going to continue doing that job to have a sort of a quiet society and to stop with the violence, but now the question of violence is more and more visible in the country.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Anne Fuller is an American working for the National Coalition for Haitian Refugees. The coalition and Human Rights Watch issued the report this week critical of the interim force and also cited a 200 percent rise in crime in Haiti in recent weeks. Fuller said that while few arrests have been made, there is strong suspicion that former members of the military are involved.

ANNE FULLER, National Coalition for Haitian Refugees: Most of the activity is carried out by what Haitians refer to as zenglendo, bandits, and particularly when they travel and work with heavy weapons, the suspicion is very clear that they have been linked to the army and the former security forces, the attaches, and there's certainly been a number of incidents of, you know, kidnapping, murder with, you know, -- with machine guns. People get away, and there's a suspicion among most Haitians that this is linked to opponents of the return of democracy who want to de-stabilize things, former soldiers who may be out for their own, you know, try to make money for themselves.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Ray Kelly, former New York City police commissioner, organized the international peace monitors at the behest of President Clinton last October. They were drawn from over 20 nations, including the U.S., and were the main watchdogs over the interim Haitian force. Kelly, whose assignment ends soon after President Clinton leaves Haiti, regularly visits police stations and jails where the interim force is assigned. With limited resources, the police stations and jails are functioning in Port- au-Prince, but barely, as in the countryside, their capacity to arrest and detain criminals severely limited. Haitians complain that captured criminals are often released because the justice system is too ill-equipped to process the cases. Kelly disputes the assessment about the number of guns, citing the thirty some thousand they collected as making a major dent.

RAYMOND KELLY, Director, International Police Monitors: Nobody knows how many weapons there are in Haiti. Nobody knows how many weapons are in New York. We see murders here. We see violence. Most of it is not committed with handguns or firearms. There's a lot of machete violence, and people are being stoned. So it would indicate that there's not a lot of handguns or firearms out there.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But the concern is that the bad guys, those who are against democracy and its processes, will wait with those guns until the international forces have left and then strike.

RAYMOND KELLY: Yeah, I've heard that. We've seen no indication of that. Obviously, there's intelligence information that comes into the multinational force. You can speculate along that line. There's no indication right now that that's a real possibility.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Kelly also disputes criticism of how the interim force was selected. Are you convinced that the bad guys who terrorize, torture, kill the population have been weeded out of this group?

RAYMOND KELLY: Yes. The population of people who are now being trained for the permanent police force. As far as the interim force is concerned, the force that's standing now, I don't think we can be a hundred percent certain, but what's important to remember is that they're being monitored, they're being observed. So even if we haven't gotten them all, they know that their actions are being watched very closely.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But the anxiety about security goes beyond the concerns of those who were persecuted for their political belief, as we found out when we revisited Alfred Vieux-Roy, a Haitian businessman we met last October. His company, which manufactures cans and other containers, is back in production after being idle for months by the economic embargo aimed at the Haitian military. Like many Haitians, he has his doubts about whether the U.N. will be as effective as the U.S.-led force at maintaining security, but his greater anxiety stems from the condition of the economy.

ALFRED VIEUX-ROY, Businessman: This is the big question. We have monetary situation where the gud is weak, might get weaker, because we are unable to export too much of export basis, is not coming back, and some industries are not back in power, are not back at work, so exports from Haiti are not big. Our gud is very weak.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Vieux-Roy rejects the charge by some donors that the fault lies with Aristide. Though not pro-Aristide, he argues that Aristide was deceived.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Why? Because --

ALFRED VIEUX-ROY: Because we see nothing happening. The nation- building that was promised to him was enormous, but what we are seeing is very little. We, businessmen, who were promised by the foreign groups that there would be a lot of help coming for infrastructure, for instance, infrastructure would be built with labor-intensive methods, and they would help this country quite a bit to recover from the embargo, and we're seeing very, very little help coming so far. So frustration is building up, because jobs are scarce. This does not mean that there will be a general uprising, you know. It means that people are getting fed up with not enough results.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Vieux-Roy points to the streets of Haiti as proof of his argument about the international community's broken promises. The international community pledged $550 million to Haiti last October to help rebuild the country and its democratic institutions. Of that, the U.S. pledged about $170 million and so far has released about $60 million. None of the money has come from the international donors. The streets of Haiti are more congested than ever, and like country roads so deteriorated as to be not just inconvenient but dangerous, as are dangling power lines and electrical cables, which also mean poor or nonexistent phone service and intermittent electricity. Municipal workers lack equipment beyond household brooms to clean the streets, and only two garbage trucks are working, but barely, leaving stinking mounds of garbage piling high and higher all over Port-au-Prince. The U.S. presence has had little effect on such conditions, other than to improve the quality of the garbage. Now, crowds of hungry Haitians lie in wait for the military to come with the garbage bearing leftover snacks from their meals ready to eat or MRE. A soldier speaking Creole implores the crowd to at least wait until the trucks have finished dumping. Then you can take what you want. This is one kind of U.S. presence that has been visible up to now in towns like this one, Petitguave, two and a half hours of hard travel outside of Port-au-Prince. Here they are helping local Haitians rebuild a bridge destroyed in a heavy tropical rainstorm. To the dismay of some Haitians, the U.S. has generally not been involved in badly needed infrastructure repair or nation-building. And this bridge is being rebuilt at U.S. expense only because it is the main access route to their base. But Haitians, without any prospects of employment, are not complaining.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: How do you feel about what the U.S. military has done since they've been here?

UNIDENTIFIED HAITIAN MAN: [speaking through interpreter] We are very pleased just for the fact that the U.S. militaries are here helping us. Things were pretty tough before they came, and right now, they are going to make a bridge here, and that creates some jobs for us, and then we hope it will stay like that.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: A few blocks away, the American forces do, in fact, have some ambitious plans for cleaning up this fetid outdoor market that is the source of income for the area's farmers and merchants.

SGT. PHILLIP STONE, U.S. Army: This area of the marketplace is all stuffed up with sewage, and the water comes down and it just coagulates down here in this area. There's no way for it to wash out into the ocean.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And it's been like this forever.

SGT. PHILLIP STONE: And it's been like this ever since we've been here and probably for the last year and a half.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: It smells really putrid. What is it? What all is it?

SGT. PHILLIP STONE: Everything is in here, from feces to the pigs, the animals, the dogs, go right into the sewer.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: And so what are you planning to do here?

SGT. PHILLIP STONE: We're working with the department of sanitation here in Petitguave, and we've engineered plans to clean this entire canal out, build new latrines, and initially, another big part of the project is to devise like we have in the states where they have trash collection points.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: But there are no funds for such a project yet. Haitians had expected food prices to go down after the embargo was lifted last October. Instead, they have steadily climbed. A small can of milk today costs almost 40 cents, three times what it did in October, and the local currency, the gud, has steadily declined against the dollar. Only 3 percent of the population is employed, and for those, like Betance Jean, back at his job at Haitian Can, making ends meet is close to impossible.

BETANCE JEAN: [speaking through interpreter] I'm glad that I'm back to work but due to the cost of living, I'm still fighting with life. Everything is so expensive, shoes, clothes, food, even transportation for the kids to go to school. That's why things are very hard for me.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: The high cost of living, la vie cher, the Haitians call it, and no jobs have sent Haitians into the streets in demonstrations like this one outside the National Palace this week, calling for the resignation of the prime minister, Smark Michele, whom they blame for la vie cher. Haitians like these have so far refrained from placing any blame on President Aristide. We asked the president why he thought the international donors were moving so slowly.

PRES. JEAN BERTRAND ARISTIDE: I think they are in a better position to answer, but I would just encourage them to move faster.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Walking a thin diplomatic tightrope these days, President Aristide is more restrained in public than other Haitians about the slow pace of the international community's keeping its promises.

PRES. JEAN BERTRAND ARISTIDE: On our side, we did our best, and we will continue. While we are doing that, we expect on the other side those who can help us by coming to invest or by keeping their promise, will move a bit faster in order to have not only one side moving with the flag of consolidation and justice, but others moving with the flag of economy.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: U.S. Amb. William Swing predicted that money from the international community would begin flowing within the next few weeks but he acknowledged the problems with the pace.

WILLIAM SWING, U.S. Ambassador to Haiti: I think we all are a little disappointed that, that a lot of that money is not flowing more quickly than it is. It's partly just simply the matter of getting agreements signed, getting people in place in a country that has itself extremely weak capacity to absorb this kind of assistance, but we all have to do better who are engaged in providing assistance.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Swing insists that while the bulk of American forces are leaving Haiti, Americans would remain on the ground and engaged with Haiti into the future.

WILLIAM SWING: This Haiti experience is sending a very powerful signal to armies and others in the hemisphere that the day of coups and of military regimes is finished, and we are not prepared, any of the 35 nations, any of the 34 nations in the hemisphere, to tolerate, overthrow duly elected governments. I think that's a very important signal we've sent.

MS. HUNTER-GAULT: Few Haitians would disagree but as the visit of President Clinton approaches, they wait with both anxiety and hope. RECAP

MR. LEHRER: Again, the major stories of this Wednesday, the House began to vote on a constitutional amendment limiting terms for members of Congress, and new home sales dropped 14 percent last month to the lowest level in three years. Good night, Robin.

MR. MAC NEIL: Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour for tonight, and we'll see you again tomorrow night. I'm Robert MacNeil. Good night.